Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin is not dead, but as an investment it is dead. Bitcoin peaked at $1200 and that was the maximum it will ever get to.

Even if wall street comes, it will just keep going up and down between like $400 - $800 but we will never see $2000 or $5000 $10,000 etc. It will still be very profitable for pro day traders something like forex, but no more 300% + returns for average joe buy and holders who are majority.

Bitcoin will now be used as a currency for remitance, etc. But even that might not happen because of government, in only the past two month half the world banned Bitcoin:

China,Russia, india, Middle east and Gulf countries, all banned bitcoin these countries have the most money and even like USA and Canada all want to put massive regulation. All these factors means mainstream investment is dead.

Are you kidding me? This has all happened before! It will all happen again!

Look at the damn history.

Nope. I disagree...

That would make no sense as our rate of adoption is increasing more rapidly than ever... Even after we reach 50% of our maximum market saturation the price will continue to climb for a few years and taper into a steady price as the supply relative to the demand decreases...

Adoption? What adoption. U really think ppl will go to ATM put cash loose 4% fee then transfer bitcoin loose more money because volitality then purchase an item? Bitcoin is fundamentally useless unless the price keeps going up siginificantly.

With credit card it takes one minute to buy online right now and if u get scammed u get refund!

Ppl lost confidence in bitcoin even btc foundation doesn't care anymore.

JUST think about it, Bitcoin doesn't make sense anymore unless it acts as a speculative investmebt, otherwise it offers nothing. And with all these major countries banning it, it will never become a world reserve currency

Umm no I looked at the history, never before bitcoin was banned worldwide from the largrst economies in the world. Never before 1 million customers lost 90% value of their btc in box and after mallebility bug ppl lost confidence in bitcoin foundation devs who r doing nothing

You must be new around here.

Making something illegal tends to raise the price, but that might not work for BTC.
In many places BTC is legal and thriving.
These are great days for BTC.  :)

No, he just doesn't understand Bitcoin.

- The number of new unique Bitcoin wallets created daily is increasing exponentially... This is a sign of adoption. More people = more adoption.

- The countries that banned it can't stop it. They can only cede productivity to other areas that embrace it.

- When you get your identity stolen then tell me how well that works in reality. It's never just a transaction... Next thing you know you've got medical records with somebody elses' blood type...

- Who lost faith in Bitcoin that had it before this? Not me or anybody I know...

- Property Rights, Contracts, Arbitration, and more coming to the blockchain soon.

- Bitcoin offers nothing less now than it ever has before; actually it's the inverse of that. It's way more useful than ever before and gaining new uses rapidly.

- I can pay with Bitcoin much faster than I can type in my CC info; especially on a mobile device.

Bitcoin is not dead, but as an investment it is dead. Bitcoin peaked at $32 and that was the maximum it will ever get to.
Bitcoin is not dead, but as an investment it is dead. Bitcoin peaked at $266 and that was the maximum it will ever get to.

You must be joking.

Complete nonsense.... when the Winklevoss ETF opens , the price will skyrocket.

If you don't understand that you're stupid, sorry to say.

he's right that it's really only useful as a speculative intsrument; people would be crazy to use bitcoin for day to day purchases given that it offers zero consumer protections. believe it or not identity theft will still be very possible, credit cards or bitcoin be damned. people care about money, they don't want to be ripped off!

i disagree that this is the end of bitcoin's usefulness as a speculation though; nothing has fundamentally changed and it still has the sexy appeal and luster as before. people will keep buying to be part of the "currency of the future" and will drive the price up.

I love the smell of capitulation in the morning.

people would be crazy to use CASH for day to day purchases given that it offers zero consumer protections.

Customer protection is helping chargeback fraudsters not honest customers. This kind of customer protection is paid for by honest customers, because shops need to add the 3-6% of chargeback fraud and costs associated with it on the price.

This kind of customer protection also disadvantages small shops - Amazon can deal with chargebacks in an automated fashion. As always, when big corporations or govt is "doing something for your protection", it is just to enable them to control you and rip you off.

I'm asking this in advance:
"How does it feel to be wrong, OP? Does it burn?"

My morning capitulation usually follows coffee and a bowl of fruit  :D

[Sorry, bad joke]

add 2 0's to each of those

do you think wall st is going to come with pocket change?

That.

Bitcoin current situation reminds me of the demise of gold and silver.

I was around when Gold peaked at almost $2000 per ounce, there were this huge number of newcomers buying at those prices and the situation was the exact same thing. As the prices started to crash all the early adopter who bought gold at $200-$800 were saying we went through this before, it will go up again bla bla ignoring the signs of peak. I remember in kitco forums some dude went like ALL IN at $1900 per ounce with like $1million of his life savings.

Now look at all the bag holders of gold who lost 50% of their holdings in the past 2 years and might take another 5 years for them to break even. The only ones making money is pro day traders who trade gold and silver on the minor swings.

The same thing with bitcoin will happen, I am seeing the exact same environment play out here.

Well gold is gold existed for millions of years. Bitcoin is very new. The full potential of BTC is not yet fully realized. We are just scratching the surface of what is possible with the protocol. I believe the technology has more potential than gold in long and short term unless of course if you think BTC is just gold 2.0.

Gold peaked at 1900. It is now at 1300. Are you implying that the Dollar lost 20% in the last 2 years?

So true, also the thing about charge backs is that even if someone stole an identity and the merchant does everything correct/follows all the rules according the CC processing company to verify a transaction to credit card and there is a charge back the returned funds get taken from the business who did the transaction. 

When my company was processing with merchant accounts there was a thick manual that had all sorts of procedures to follow before accepting a CC although that takes so long that just about NO ONE does it.  Even when you call to do a "manual auth/verification" they charge you extra money!  IMHO those higher CC processing fees should cover those manual auth calls since that is suppose to help stop fraud.  Of course most of the time identity thefts are already ready to handle that and would have all the correct information and sometimes people don't realize that their credit card has been stolen until a nice large bill has been racked up.

Also, more fees when the transaction is not done with "card present" like if the customer's card doesn't read in your machine for some reason and you just enter their CC number.  They consider this "high risk" since many phone orders/internet orders are done this way but even if you can prove that your customer is standing in front of you they don't differentiate.

Even if you integrate CC processing into your website and turn on ALL of the verification settings so that the buyer has to have exact matches on all their information and more (which is a PIA for the customers when they type "PO box" or "P.O. Box" it may reject unless it is exactly the same as the billing address) etc... they still charge a higher rate than face to face transactions because again, it's a "high risk" category.  When it is such a PIA just for a customer to pay then they usually move on and may just go and get something similar from Amazon so you just lost a sale.

Giant merchants like Amazon can be more lax on some of the CC verification since they make so much that a few hits from a stolen card is nothing to them and they have already factored that into the budget as cost of operations.  Same thing like brick and mortar stores factoring shoplifting and I'm sure stolen CCs too.

The people that these CC companies and banks affect the most are small to medium businesses as most of the time since they can't all afford to have to take the hit for multiple charge backs due to fraud, even though the merchant had done everything correctly.  Sometimes it can just be a couple purchases that can wipe out a company, as sometimes these thieves get a hold of corporate cards that have high limits and don't get flagged because large purchases are already common.  Then the company that it was stolen from does not notice that the charges until months later and it is already too late as you have already shipped your product to their drop address.  Those cards will even pass through a phone verification and manual auth, so lets say they buy some miners, that could easily come up to 100k or more just using 2-3 CCs and different names.

So everyone is talking about "consumer protection" well what about merchant protection?!  Merchant are the consumers for the CC processing companies too right?  That extra 1-2% for online merchant accounts, gateway fees, monthly fees, minimum sales, etc just go straight into their pocket because in the end the merchant pays for ALL charge backs, fraud or not, even if you show them that all the correct procedures which they require you to do were done.  Where is our (the merchants who are consumers to the CC companies) consumer protections?  Why are extra fees paid when all the liability is still on the merchant?  Especially when the CC reps say that the higher rates are to cover loses but it's not their loss... even the merchant gets charged a flat FEE when a charge back is done, fraud or dispute and even if they find the dispute in your favor they still charge you that fee.

How is that fair?  These policies would wipe out a small business like Bees Brothers (the kids that sell honey for BTC) if someone used a fraudulent CC and made a huge 100k order.  The only choice you have is to try and dispute with your merchant account provider but that doesn't really make a difference, they will even try to automatically take money from your bank account without permission to cover the charge back.

At the same time the cost to set up a merchant account is not cheap (well cheaper now than it use to be) but still is a barrier for smaller start up businesses.

With BTC none of that happens and if the transaction is so large that there is a concern then escrow could easily be used and for a lot less than dealing with fees from a charge back.  There is still consumer protection, people just need to be taught how to use BTC properly.  Along with that there is also Merchant protection so it's a two way street.

People have gotten so use to the debt based consumerism and all the BS the CC companies push like "100% fraud protection" that everyone files a charge back for anything and more often than not abuse the system.  The CC companies don't care because they are not actually losing the money since they just take it from the merchant and if they don't pay then the bank will just close their CC processing account.

How does this help our society as a whole?  It only leads to people being more dishonest since it is piratically encouraged by all the big money processors.

If only it was real... I still sense way too much hope around here.

there is no hope and no despair either, this is exactly what happens when a commodity peaks it's max value.

Bitcoin as a speculation vehicle is no more.

Now it's been confirmed this sub forum needs to be deleted ASAP.

If it's still here the next time I check then I'm finding whatever centralised authority I can and raising hell.

ha ha ha...i said exactly the same thing back in april 2013 after the crash..but i have learnt from my misjudgement....there will be a lot of traders making a tonne of profit at the moment...so why on earth would they consider stopping speculating on bitcoin?!

I'm sure OP has never heard of this (dat ignorance, it's cute) :

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1579346/000119312514058712/d562329ds1a.htm

Well I guess we know the who has at least BTC200,000....

The winklevoss have less than 200.000 coins, actually 120.000

The ETF with 100,000 bitcoins?

Exponentially increasing fiat money supply will ensure bitcoin's value rise forever

http://www.saveoursavers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/US-Money-Supply.jpg

Yeah but there is no reason for ppl to keep pumping fiat into bitcoin forever.

The most simple reason is that their fiat money is losing value day by day, year by year

Bullshit chart, especially because what is shown here isn't at all related to the Money in circulation. Not even close, even the monetary base excluding excess reserves doesn't fit that description.


http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2012/08/03/the_monetary_base_is_irrelevant/1344027227649.png.CROP.article568-large.png

source: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/08/03/the_monetary_base_is_irrelevant.html
see also: http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/current_issues/ci15-8.pdf

Money in circulation =/= monetary base.

It would be like someone saying apples are red and you saying "bullshit" and posting a photo of an orange as proof.

The "money supply" has lots of definitions.  If we look at broad money supply (M2) it has expanded almost 10x in the last 35 years.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=sqb

We haven't seen hyperinflation because the velocity of money has collapsed
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=sqc

Of course the fed would argue when the economy picks up they will just soak up all that excess reserves to prevent "excessive" inflation.   So nothing to worry about, history has shown the Fed has already been quick, precise, and aggressive when needing to tightening the money supply (1970s oil shock, dotcom bust, housing market bubble, etc).

johnyj's chart uses the same data as the st.louis fed monetary base chart including excess reserves and for all practical purposes it is bullshit.
To match your analogy, it shows an apple and writes "This is a banana" on top of it.

Big whoop, in a world where many people don't even live longer than 70. Oh and nevermind the population growth and economic growth during that period.

Well seeing as the charts don't even peak at the same value or point .... that seems unlikely.  Maybe you assumed the chart was for the monetary base when in fact it could be for M0, or M1.

But most do live long than 35.  This is rather unprecidented so to pass it off as routine is disingenuous.  Please point to a period of time prior to 1980 where then money supply expanded 10x in any 35 year period.

Please point to any time period prior to 1980 where most people could afford computers,
It's the same data, are you blind?

"roughly the same" =/= "same".

I mean one chart peaks >$3T and the other <$3T so they aren't "the same data".  I don't like the first chart simply because it provides no cite or reference but it is most certainly not the same data. 

It is the same data, it fits perfectly. And it uses the public misunderstanding of how quantitative easing works, purposefully ignoring excess reserves for scaremongering.
Oh and that the Bullshit chart doesn't cite any references doesn't strengthen your argument either.

Both.

All these countries do not offer much freedoom. Bitcoin is ultimate freedoom as a paying method so its future success depends how much freedoom will be over world.

end ? I think we barely started :D

Well too bad then, the world is controlled by doers the one u call fools not the wise thinkers who just think but don't do jack shit

U r gravely mistaken its the end and u will lose all ur money.

Your'e just upset because you missed the boat, that's something else.

I didn't miss the boat, far from it.

So, you have Bitcoins ?

OP, you're posting here like you've got some sort of new message shining light onto the world.

You've only joined the club of people who will end up eating their words. "Veteran" users have been through this time and time again, the fact of the matter is: You have no clue what the future holds and I'm shocked you would even attempt to predict the value of such disruptive technology. This idea is bigger than your tiny mind and all of its processing power and where it goes will definitely not be foretold by you.

The only thing you can keep saying is "Wait and see, it's the end, you will lose all your money" while most adopters are up thousands of percent since entry. The only person who needs to do any waiting and seeing is you, the next year will bring such powerful movement and change, your head might actually explode.

I think the OP has a point, but maybe not yet.

Bitcoin has barely scratched the surface, and I still meet people who'd like a bitcoin or two, but have no idea how to buy one.  However, in all reality, I don't think they ever will buy a bitcoin to keep.

The whole point of a bitcoin is that it allows you to move value digitally.  However, once the transaction has been done, people want their local fiat.  So, in a matter of an hour or so, they buy the right amount of bitcoin, do the deal, and the other person sells the bitcoin.

The actual value of the bitcoin is irrelevant to that deal.  It could be worth $500 a coin, $2000 or $200000 - it doesn't matter.  They only actually buy enough to cover the cost of their deal.

If bitcoin isn't bought and sold as an investment, and its prime purpose isn't as a store of value, it isn't going to go up much more in value than it needs to.

Personally, I think Nxtcoin has a far better future than bitcoin, but what bitcoin is doing is teaching regulators how to deal with crypto currency, and that is why a coin could be worth $2000 or so within the next few months but within 10 years will only be of value as a collectors piece! ;-)

I read a similiar thread a half year ago and bought at 100$. Hm...

OP, ever started talking with someone about Bitcoin and been surprised they have no idea at all about it? I get that all the time because sometimes I fail to realize that at the moment it really is a small small market niche. So many people don't know about it or have only linked it to the usual bullshit (SR etc)

Because of this, the "untapped masses", Bitcoin isn't finished as a speculative investment for mine.

But I think success or failure depends on adoption: imagine keeping your funds in the btc ecosystem at all times, displacing much of the need for fiat. Adoption though, will be affected by many things.

1. ease of use

2. media portrayal / FUD / reputation

3. regulation

4. economic circumstance (ie a major pos / neg event ala Cyprus)

if we reach a tipping point where enough people are able use it, where merchants accept it (need that easy transaction point) then surely it will make sense to keep our funds within the bitcoin ecosystem?

It offers nothing?  Have you tried sending money internationally lately?  When you need to send cash to someone...compare the fees with that of btc, and then report back on how "useless" bitcoin is.  Regardless of the downtrend in btc value this week, the invention itself has changed and will continue to revolutionize how money is used worldwide...

"The lesson from the Internet is, anything that China bans, invest in it," Wilson said Tuesday, seemingly half in jest. But he backed up his comments on his blog, noting that: "My point being that the services China likes to block are the really important ones that have been built on the Internet." He's referring to the country's bans on citizens' access to Facebook and Twitter--both of which, from a venture-capital perspective, would have been great bets. - http://www.inc.com/christine-lagorio/fred-wilson-bitcoin-predictions.html

And Mt. Gox was shit from the beginning. What happened was wrong, but anyone who loses confidence in Bitcoin because they lost confidence in an exchange literally named Magic the Gathering Online Exchange needs to go.