Bitcoin Forum

Its not dying, its just very unprofitable due to the competition.

Basically its like a double edged sword.

If Bitcoin and other crypos weren't popular then the price would be lower. However since they are popular alot of people discover this "free money" thing called mining and they end up increasing everyones difficulty.

Vosk, you need to familiarize yourself with Bettenridge's Law of Headlines:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines

"If the headline asks a question, try answering 'no'. Is This the True Face of Britain's Young? (Sensible reader: No.) Have We Found the Cure for AIDS? (No; or you wouldn't have put the question mark in.) Does This Map Provide the Key for Peace? (Probably not.) A headline with a question mark at the end means, in the vast majority of cases, that the story is tendentious or over-sold. It is often a scare story, or an attempt to elevate some run-of-the-mill piece of reporting into a national controversy and, preferably, a national panic. To a busy journalist hunting for real information a question mark means 'don't bother reading this bit'."

"If the headline asks a question, try answering 'no'. Is This the True Face of Britain's Young? (Sensible reader: No.) Have We Found the Cure for AIDS? (No; or you wouldn't have put the question mark in.) Does This Map Provide the Key for Peace? (Probably not.) A headline with a question mark at the end means, in the vast majority of cases, that the story is tendentious, over-sold or click-bait. It is often a scare story, or an attempt to elevate some run-of-the-mill piece of reporting into a national controversy and, preferably, a national panic. To a busy journalist hunting for real information a question mark means 'don't bother reading this bit'."

Vosk, you need to familiarize yourself with Bettenridge's Law of Headlines:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines

"If the headline asks a question, try answering 'no'. Is This the True Face of Britain's Young? (Sensible reader: No.) Have We Found the Cure for AIDS? (No; or you wouldn't have put the question mark in.) Does This Map Provide the Key for Peace? (Probably not.) A headline with a question mark at the end means, in the vast majority of cases, that the story is tendentious or over-sold. It is often a scare story, or an attempt to elevate some run-of-the-mill piece of reporting into a national controversy and, preferably, a national panic. To a busy journalist hunting for real information a question mark means 'don't bother reading this bit'."

I get this is a quote as I read through the wikipedia article, thanks for that... But the quote should be changed for modern times.

If mining is dying than pow coins are dying also. right?

So no, mining is not dead, not at all.

Its not dying, its just very unprofitable due to the competition.

Basically its like a double edged sword.

If Bitcoin and other crypos weren't popular then the price would be lower. However since they are popular alot of people discover this "free money" thing called mining and they end up increasing everyones difficulty.

GPU mining is totally dead imo.  the guys happy with 1$ a day for 1080ti have massive farms or cheap power
tech evolution + big money has come in since 2017-2018
everyday users are building million dollar farms, FPGAs+ASIC are everywhere (if you still think ANY algos aren't on FPGAs, they are just being kept quiet AKA profitable)

Evolve, band together, diversify, or die.     if you dont have 50+ cards+diversification in trading/asic+FPGAs, your a hobby miner, mining is for the big boys now : /

PoS is the future, we all got too greedy for PoW to work anymore
and ETH hasent even finished mining! wait till THAT happens :O GPU miners are toast

 

it does seem the opposite ye, everyone just pushing defense up and securing their own selves :/
it seems people are not versed in game theory, they should do some more research :P
theres no winner to this

i totally agree on eth everyone is so busy either panicking or expanding in w.e they can buy, noone wants to think about ETH : /
we cant save mining, Satoshi spoke of this in the beginning and all he suggested was we all "played nice as long as possible"
well that time is long gone, greed has taken over. now game theory in Nakomoto Consensus comes into play and everyone except a few will be screwed


ProgPoW is nice, but look where it went, nowhere, as theres no $$$ to be made easily there, people would rather focus their energy in things that make $$$ easily in this game

during the non digital gold rush the winners sold shovels, everyone else killed eachother and themselves trying to dig faster and faster .
this time is the same

(your easy to give merit too, as you actually bring info/opinion to this forum :P )

My thought is this:

2-3 years ago I was making 3 bucks a unit now we are making 5-7$ and people bitch.

Is it harder hell yes, is it less profitable not really.  Especially if you paid for all your stuff already  

The people that jumped on last year and were making 20-45$ a day but paid exorbitant prices are crying but all the old timers have seen it before.  We knew, or should of known, we should be saving that $ because skinny times always come.

The ASIC revolution is stupid but what you gonna do.  

It all boils down to this. If I can put one dollar in a vending machine and it pops out 2 dollars, HELL YES I will sit there all day!  :P

Past performance is not an indicator of future results.  The landscape has change.  Your numbers are all out of wack.  I'm making negative each day after electric cost avg of 28 cents.

Saying we make $5-7 a unit is false.  

Your vending machine analogy is stupid b/c the reality is that you gota spend $2000 for a vending machine that will only pump out $1 dollar a day and will be outdated in 2 years.  That means you lose money .

and and difficulty rises with time so therefore you get rekt even more. Miners are dumb

To make this clear I don't hate "ASIC MINING" . . simply put all of the current producers are trash -- just analyze Bitmains price gouging tactics, and then they become "good guy bitmain" after their coupon airdrop to just buy more of their junk. . .

Past performance is not an indicator of future results.  The landscape has change.  Your numbers are all out of wack.  I'm making negative each day after electric cost avg of 28 cents.

Saying we make $5-7 a unit is false.  

Your vending machine analogy is stupid b/c the reality is that you gota spend $2000 for a vending machine that will only pump out $1 dollar a day and will be outdated in 2 years.  That means you lose money .

and and difficulty rises with time so therefore you get rekt even more. Miners are dumb

What are these price gouging tactics that Bitmain is accused of?

Bitmain is a company, and they will sell their product to the cost that the market will bear.  It’s no different than if you go to eBay to sell an old GPU, you research what the going price is for your product, what price are they actually selling, and maybe drop a few dollars or cents to make your sale a little more attractive.

life is boring if you live entirely within the constructs that those before you have built  ???





What is an alternative title you would have chosen for distribution on the YouTube platform?

Miners are not dumb we are pioneers. Crypto currencies and blockchain are a long term horizon. It's about patience.

But we must stop contributing to centralized networks. Mine on coinfoundry.org stay away from the big megalithic pools. Blockchain won't maintain its value if we let the networks become controlled by Bitmain or any megalithic hashing pool. Coinfoundry.org has a great track record but needs more hash to make ethereum viable.

They sell the first batch high and then slash the prices of subsequent batches, people are on to them now though you would hope /shurg i got 5 k worth of coupons from them for last years s9 and D3 debacle

the A3 was the last straw for me never another toaster here.  Seems they learned a bit with the z9 and E3 but unless they gave me  coupons that refund my 100 percent losses one the d3s , which of course they won’t Im done

Again... Bitmain is not stupid, they are a business, and they sell the first batch based on estimates of what this "money-printing-machine" will mine over a reasonable length of time.  Plus, there is a scarcity factor of the first batch that will allow a premium price versus later batches.

It's no different than when a brand new GPU series comes out, the scarcity of obtaining that GPU can cause the retail price to exceed MSRP, which is what the manufacturer thinks the card is worth on the open market.

Past performance is not an indicator of future results.  The landscape has change.  Your numbers are all out of wack.  I'm making negative each day after electric cost avg of 28 cents.

Saying we make $5-7 a unit is false.  

Your vending machine analogy is stupid b/c the reality is that you gota spend $2000 for a vending machine that will only pump out $1 dollar a day and will be outdated in 2 years.  That means you lose money .

and and difficulty rises with time so therefore you get rekt even more. Miners are dumb

If you generalize from Obelisk situation, then yes looks like a negative situation.

Thats a  ridiculously stupid analogy GPUs that sell first batch like that are usually sold to enthusiast gamers who must have the fastest gaming system  money can buy .

this has nothing to do with roi , it has nothing to do with how much money you will make since profit is not the reason games buy the new flagship gpus.

when it comes to bitmain  selling the toasters yes the first batch prices are high based on potential predicted roi

-the problem is What they don’t tell you is that they have 10 more batches plan at half the price which would dilute the current earnings and future earnings of the batch that you bought and first batch so it’s basically false advertising on top of that the pricing is total bullshit.

why do you think it took so long for the l3s and s9s to become unprofitable, the old normal life span of an asic was two solid years of decent profits... assuming you got lucky enough to buy into the rare batch launches.

with the D3 bitmain took up a scorced earth policy that has continued today, thier goal is to be the only game in town, since they mine with thier best hardware for years in advance anyways they don’t care about the current profit or life expectancy of the CURRENT gear they are selling you idiots.  

even know they are probably using thier next gen , eth,cn7 sha256 miners in house on open air boards , In a year or so when they go from making $50 a day per unit they will sale then to you and you will again lap up thier dregs lol

Evidence please.  

https://medium.com/@salva.enkidu_89587/how-bitmain-indeed-mines-coins-in-secret-2ea179e7ab75

Mining is only dieing for the ppl who thought they could jump on board and strike it rich when BTC hit 20k for the rest of us who are here to support crypto and have seen the same thing happen when scrypt asics came out mining is not dieing just a little closet cleaning for a the greedy bastards who only care about Fiat, and everyone who's complaining about profits who ran out and lined bitmains pocket this is what happens you will never make money on a asics coin why? Because you have to constantly upgrade to the newest miner as difficulty goes up and up

The first graph tells the true story... Sia hashrate was flat until the Bitmain ASICs delivered.  The rest is easily explained in bitmain and innosilicon developing, testing, QA before release.

Not true about asics. We have hit the limit with Moore's law and improvement in hardware has been very slow. S9 was out two years ago and we have not gotten a better miner yet from bitmain. Chips can't get any smaller with current tech.

"The most interesting fact is that the oldest block we can track of Antpool is #132204, dated on November 17th, what means that Bitmain mined Siacoins in secret for exactly 2 months (as the Antminer A3 was presented on January 17th). Antpool collected 488 blocks in total thanks to their exclusivity using ASICs, using their brand new hardware in secret."

so...
read whole article carefully again
and again...
and again...

:)

LOL... I did.. and the graphs show that there were bursts of ASIC activity before the official announcements.  That is indicative of testing.  If they were mining to make real profits then you would see more steady network hashrate, and then a dropoff before announcing the product, as they packed and shipped the "used" miners.  That's not what the data shows... it shows bursts of testing for a couple of months.

How else were bitmain and innosilicon supposed to test their product?

"In total, 550 blocks were mined in secret during the 2 months previous to the Antminer A3 announcement, representing around 85 million Siacoins in block rewards. According to CoinMarketCap, the value of Siacoin oscillated during November and January on the range of 0.5 and 11 USD cents. Interestingly, the maximal historic value of SC was reached on January 6th, 11 days before the Bitmain announcement. Depending on the moment they sold their “warchests”, they could have obtained something between $0.4 and $9 million from the secret mining operation. According to some estimations, the development of the A3 costed Bitmain $10 million. If they planned the trades carefully, this means they could have recovered the whole cost of the ASIC development just by secret mining during those 2 months."

= "testing"... LOL

You do like jokes, don't you? :)

"This, of course, on top of the $74 million in sales profit just from the first 2 batches ($2300 per unit and 33,000 units as we explained above)."

It's a simple supply vs demand scenario for both the first batch off bitmain ASICs and first run GPUs.  Surely you don't disagree with that?



And limited supply based on whatever competition they might have.  Potential capital recovery times are a big factor in pricing of that first batch... we agree.



It's a wash price-wise.  Take the Z9 mini for example.  A $2000 batch one price with a 2 month head start in mining over batch two that sold for $850 is a wash over the lifetime of both batches of Z9 minis.  There might be bread crumbs of difference over the life span, not taking into account coin pricing fluctuations... but believe me... bitmain does their homework on batch pricing.



Altcoin pricing is highly volatile, and heavily dependent on bitcoin pricing.  Bitcoin ASICs lifetime performance is fairly predictable over it's useful lifespan when you take into account the exponential difficulty/hashrate increases.  Litecoin ASICs have enjoyed a nice ride over the past year, with early adopters gaining the most bang for their buck.



The D3 was a strange scenario.  Baikal was the only game in town before Bitmain came on board.  But let's not put the blame solely on Bitmain here... people were buying their product... they are just as much to blame.



Evidence please.  Beyond development, testing, and QA there has never been any definitive proof that Bitmain has done this.  There has certainly been a lot of conjecture from people saying "that's what I would do"... which just shows you the greed that people have... relates to the D3 point above.

I invite you to look at the charts again.  Here is the hashrate graph... notice that hashrate was negligible before ASICs were introduced.  Then notice the hashrate after ASICs.  If Bitmain were mining with thousands of ASICs before the official announcement, you would see it in the graph.  The bursts before the announcement were tests.  How else were bitmain and innosilicon supposed to test their product?

https://i.imgur.com/CAC2RNC.jpg


Now, here is the difficulty charts again... notice the very small increase in difficulty before the official release of ASICs.  Again this is indicative of testing.  Look at the difficulty after ASICs... again... if Bitmain were mining with thousands of ASICs before the official announcement, you would see it in the graph.

https://i.imgur.com/NEkUSQs.jpg

The amount of money mined during testing is irrelevant, because the ASICs would dominate during these bursts.

Its not people, there is so much room in crypto for ‘people ‘

its the corporations like bitmain etc that are killing profitablity so harshly, they are also the worst dumpers
of crypto too

I invite you to look at the charts again.  Here is the hashrate graph... notice that hashrate was negligible before ASICs were introduced.  Then notice the hashrate after ASICs.  If Bitmain were mining with thousands of ASICs before the official announcement, you would see it in the graph.  The bursts before the announcement were tests.  How else were bitmain and innosilicon supposed to test their product?

https://i.imgur.com/CAC2RNC.jpg


Now, here is the difficulty charts again... notice the very small increase in difficulty before the official release of ASICs.  Again this is indicative of testing.  Look at the difficulty after ASICs... again... if Bitmain were mining with thousands of ASICs before the official announcement, you would see it in the graph.

https://i.imgur.com/NEkUSQs.jpg

The amount of money mined during testing is irrelevant, because the ASICs would dominate during these bursts.

I personally believe that Bitmain and all other major manufacturers along with the "secret" groups of course mine in private. I believe Bitmain has partaken in this increasingly less or not at all at this point, for multiple reasons including the fact that the vast majority of earnings have been sucked up already . . what is the point of them secret mining now? They are under a bigger magnifying glass than ever and the profits are absolute shit lol

the chart referenced above, clearly shows that if you're looking to point out secret mining, SIA is not the crypto to do it with

^
This

I guarantee if we were still in an ultra bull market they would still be mining heavily, like he said profits are shit now , they already killed cooked and ate the golden goose.  U bitmain shills can have all the refurb Asics u want.

If profits come back on existing or new algos they will be back but for now thier moving on to more profitable enterprises aka ICO scams

Mining is not dying at all, quite the contrary! It's getting bigger and bigger, however, the competition's growth is indeed unprecedented!

Traditional mining may as well die off at one point, due to cloud mining providers which are much more convenient and affordable.

1. Electricity bills;
2. Constant monitoring of hardware equipment;
3. Cool environment;
4. Low profitability;
5. High competition;
6. A lot of initial investments

These are just one of the inconvenient parts that every traditional miner must have in mind!

Another 'bad' information about all miners, is that BTC supply descended down to less than 20 million! You can read an article about it HERE (https://cryptocoinmastery.com/what-happens-when-all-bitcoins-have-been-mined/). The article states that in the next 3 years the mining reward will be lowered by half!

So now it's time to think about mineable altcoins which are plenty!

However, which cloud mining service provider to choose, as people are speculating that huge bulk of them are scammers!

Here is a great tip! Check their rates, DO YOUR MATH, and find out if the contract you sign you actually pay off.

For example, at MyHashing, our mining data centers are located in Georgia, which is tagged as one of the cheapest places electricity-wise, and its hardware-friendly climate contributes to their performance.

Our rates will also guarantee that the hashpower provided will be sustainable 24/7.

So please remind us once again, why would you turn to something outdated and imperfect, when cloud mining offers hell of a benefits!~

MyHashing will be a unique platform, offering its users LEGITIMACY and AUTHENTICITY which are our main virtues.

Our website will soon be deployed, and our rates published!

In the meantime, you can follow us on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/myhashingmining), Twitter (https://twitter.com/myhashingmining), and Bitcointalk ANN (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5026621.msg45536714#msg45536714).[/size]