Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Speculation => Topic started by: cellard on August 18, 2018, 03:42:17 PM



Title: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: cellard on August 18, 2018, 03:42:17 PM
I was wondering, what does it take for a hardcore goldbug like Peter Schiff, or our very own r0ach, to admit that they fucked up big time holding gold instead of Bitcoin?

Currently gold is around 7 $trillion marketcap, I haven't paid attention to gold to get the exact value but last year it was around that. Bitcoin is around 100 $billion as of today.

At what point will some traditional goldbugs publicly accept that they should have at least, diversified some of their gold into Bitcoin? I have added a poll with 5 options, the most conservative one is when BTC reaches 1 $trillion, because I don't expect any of them to admit they were wrong any time sooner than that.

The poll never expires.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: 1Referee on August 18, 2018, 04:03:48 PM
$1 trillion dollar market cap for Bitcoin is such an important and powerful statement, that it will definitely result in not only capital parked in Gold to shift towards Bitcoin, but pretty much all legacy assets will start bleeding to a certain degree.

After that $1 trillion dollar milestone the "slow" capital (the braver institutions, governments, hedge funds, royal families, etc) will start to massively inflate Bitcoin's price towards even greater hights. It would be a tremendous achievement when governments will finally start stocking up Bitcoin instead of just Gold.

It's actually quite 'easy' to see Bitcoin hit a market cap of $1 trillion. Bitcoin at $60,000 with a circulating supply of around 18 million coins at that point is only a matter of time. Realistically, we're just another bull run away from doing it.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: cellard on August 18, 2018, 05:43:48 PM
$1 trillion dollar market cap for Bitcoin is such an important and powerful statement, that it will definitely result in not only capital parked in Gold to shift towards Bitcoin, but pretty much all legacy assets will start bleeding to a certain degree.

After that $1 trillion dollar milestone the "slow" capital (the braver institutions, governments, hedge funds, royal families, etc) will start to massively inflate Bitcoin's price towards even greater hights. It would be a tremendous achievement when governments will finally start stocking up Bitcoin instead of just Gold.

It's actually quite 'easy' to see Bitcoin hit a market cap of $1 trillion. Bitcoin at $60,000 with a circulating supply of around 18 million coins at that point is only a matter of time. Realistically, we're just another bull run away from doing it.


Yeah we can hit the milestone by the next halving, or even before that if it goes into rocket mode earlier. After the $trillion psychological barrier is hit, I expect a big FOMO by big players. Most likely big players will use OTC but this will translate in the market prices short after since there is always someone that knows about these huge OTC deals but they don't have access to OTC liquidity so they go to Coinbase or whatever to pick a bunch and the price rise starts.

But still, I think goldbugs are too deep in denial. 1 $trillion may not be enough. Perhaps it takes half of gold marketcap's for them to wake up, or even as long as gold has a bigger marketcap they will think BTC is just a temporal trend which will go away. I just can't wait to hit the first trillion, once we hit that the rest will happen pretty damn fast.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 18, 2018, 06:54:22 PM
I was wondering, what does it take for a hardcore goldbug like Peter Schiff, or our very own r0ach, to admit that they fucked up big time holding gold instead of Bitcoin?

Currently gold is around 7 $trillion marketcap, I haven't paid attention to gold to get the exact value but last year it was around that. Bitcoin is around 100 $billion as of today.

At what point will some traditional goldbugs publicly accept that they should have at least, diversified some of their gold into Bitcoin? I have added a poll with 5 options, the most conservative one is when BTC reaches 1 $trillion, because I don't expect any of them to admit they were wrong any time sooner than that.

The poll never expires.

I dumped all my bitcoin into gold when it was near $19k so who fucked up?

Gold always was and always will be the ultimate store of wealth, you just have to ignore short term price noise.  I still stick to my prediciton that in the next few years central banks will release their own state issued crypto and bitcoin will be banned in most developed countries as it will be seen as direct competition by those in power.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: The Pharmacist on August 18, 2018, 07:01:41 PM
I love this topic, but why not focus on the price per ounce instead of market cap?  For the average person, that's a foreign concept when it comes to the gold market but the price of an Oz is not.  I don't know what gold's market cap is, but I do think Schiff and all the other permabulls fucked up big time.  They will never publicly admit it, though, because they benefit when people buy gold.  They will ALWAYS be telling the public to buy gold & silver.

Look at this article (https://thedailycoin.org/2018/08/15/who-needs-silver-and-gold-at-beat-down-2015-prices/).  Instead of being realistic and calling a bear market for what it is, they're recommending people get into metals now that they're at 2015 prices!  These kinds of people have been telling people to buy for many years now, and never to sell.  Meanwhile if you bought any metals in 2011-2014 you're still underwater and may never make a profit.  

And forget about metals being an inflation hedge.  If you bought metals in that interval, you're not hedging anything.  You lost money, period.  Your money lost purchasing power.

I would absolutely love it if people like Schiff came out and admitted they're hyping a declining asset, but they're never going to do it.  Not at ANY market cap.

or our very own r0ach
I haven't read anything from him lately.  Maybe he posts in sections I have blocked, but I do recall him being very well-spoken if a little nutty.  Nothing like Schiff, however.  Schiff apparently has a very large fanbase of people who will follow anything he recommends.  That's dangerous when he tells people to buy something that's been falling for years and still can fall a lot.  Gold is just under $1200.  Don't think for a minute that it couldn't go back down to $200 or that silver couldn't fall to $5.

Is that any different to all the muppets here claiming "now is the time to buy bitcoin", "you'll never see these prices again".
That's a valid question.  Here's the thing:  I don't hear a lot of people in positions of power (like Schiff, who has a platform) hyping bitcoin incessantly.  True, you do hear it a lot on bitcointalk, but that's to be expected.  Also, bitcoin hasn't been in a 7-year bear market.  There have been amazing opportunities to buy bitcoin ever since 2009.

On the other hand, people who were telling others that bitcoin was a screaming buy at $20,000 were just as deluded as any metals permabull.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 18, 2018, 07:07:13 PM
Instead of being realistic and calling a bear market for what it is, they're recommending people get into metals now that they're at 2015 prices!

Is that any different to all the muppets here claiming "now is the time to buy bitcoin", "you'll never see these prices again".

There is never bad news in bitcoin, its either "to the moon" or "hell yes its just crashed buy now or you'll regret it", heard it all the way down from $19k to $6k.

The way I look at it there is a reason russia and china are buying gold and silver as quickly as possible.  They are not accumulating bitcoin, Bitcoin's real world utility is going backwards with many previous retailers accepting it now ditching it.  All that is left is a speculative monster used to enrich early adpoters at the expense of greater fools.  Money to be made in the short term, doomed in the mid to long term.

Also, bitcoin hasn't been in a 7-year bear market.  There have been amazing opportunities to buy bitcoin ever since 2009.

Bitcoin has only just exceeded 7 years old so tough to have a that long a bear market, you also have to take in to account currencies as we dont all use the $, the gold price spike after Brexit paid off my current house .

I think the trick with bitcoin and gold is not to get greedy, set yourself goals and targets then take profits at the correct times.  Never go all in on either and dont overstretch yourself which will force you to sell at a loss.  Sticking to this principle has got me financial security for the rest of my life given my daughter a great start (owns her own house at 10 years old with no mortgage :) )


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: LeGaulois on August 18, 2018, 07:15:07 PM
It is still more wisely to invest in gold than Bitcoin. At least with Gold, your funds are somehow secured while with Bitcoin the volatility makes it too much risk. Don't worry they don't fuck up anything and they are still smarter than us. They proves it to us not long ago...


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Febo on August 18, 2018, 08:21:58 PM
I was wondering, what does it take for a hardcore goldbug like Peter Schiff, or our very own r0ach, to admit that they fucked up big time holding gold instead of Bitcoin?

Currently gold is around 7 $trillion marketcap, I haven't paid attention to gold to get the exact value but last year it was around that. Bitcoin is around 100 $billion as of today.

At what point will some traditional goldbugs publicly accept that they should have at least, diversified some of their gold into Bitcoin? I have added a poll with 5 options, the most conservative one is when BTC reaches 1 $trillion, because I don't expect any of them to admit they were wrong any time sooner than that.

The poll never expires.

Why you think roach dont hold any Bitcoin?  He have probably more then all that will post in this thread combined.    Now about the Gold. Gold will have value even 100 years form now. No matter of Bitcoin.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: BitHodler on August 18, 2018, 08:24:41 PM
It is still more wisely to invest in gold than Bitcoin. At least with Gold, your funds are somehow secured while with Bitcoin the volatility makes it too much risk.
It all depends on your outlook. In the last 5 years gold has been down like 15% which if you also add the loss of purchasing power, makes it even a less fruitful option to go for with Bitcoin being around.

Everyone has its own opinion of course, but we should at least acknowledge the potential of Bitcoin's growth and how it might disrupt everything the traditional system stands for today. If you don't try you don't know.

I'm not going anywhere in life by having my wealth invested in traditional options that yield you a few percent if you're lucky. I'm at a point in life where I can take a significant amount of risk, and I'm sticking to it.

As for OP, the only challenge will be the first trillion. I can see a scenario where various entities will try to prevent Bitcoin from reaching that market cap because of how psychologically important it is. After the first trillion the sky is the limit.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: gentlemand on August 18, 2018, 08:40:36 PM
Goldbugs get a hefty amount of derision too despite their pet rock having value being thousands of years old as a concept.

I don't think they'll ever give up but they may well die off in unprecedented numbers. Never in my entire life have I heard anyone below the age of 70 express the slightest interest in metals. As long as it's an integral part of international finance it's not going anywhere but I expect retail to fade.

As for me, it's now 38 years since gold's all time high and it's over 50% down from then inflation adjusted. I'll take me chances elsewhere. I'll be long dead before it's up there again. And silver is the tangible equivalent of a shitcoin as far as I'm concerned.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: figmentofmyass on August 18, 2018, 10:32:03 PM
Gold always was and always will be the ultimate store of wealth, you just have to ignore short term price noise. 

well said. the point here is about value storage. gold may not rise nearly as much as bitcoin over time (though the 2001-2011 run was pretty magnificent). but there are other considerations. gold has a history of thousands of years; bitcoin, less than 10. that's a huge difference in risk profile.

that's why it makes sense for wealthy people to dump only a small amount into bitcoin. they need to hedge wisely, not strike it rich.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: exstasie on August 18, 2018, 10:41:23 PM
It is still more wisely to invest in gold than Bitcoin. At least with Gold, your funds are somehow secured while with Bitcoin the volatility makes it too much risk.

Then again, gold is down 15% over the past few months. Sure, it hasn't seen as much downside as BTC this year, but it's been a harsh year nonetheless for goldbugs.

The 1-month chart is quite ugly....strong downtrend in effect. I accumulated quite a bit physical gold near the lows in late 2015. I'm starting to sweat over those positions a bit. :-[


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: MinerHQ on August 19, 2018, 12:08:41 AM
Gold always was and always will be the ultimate store of wealth, you just have to ignore short term price noise. 

well said. the point here is about value storage. gold may not rise nearly as much as bitcoin over time (though the 2001-2011 run was pretty magnificent). but there are other considerations. gold has a history of thousands of years; bitcoin, less than 10. that's a huge difference in risk profile.

that's why it makes sense for wealthy people to dump only a small amount into bitcoin. they need to hedge wisely, not strike it rich.

It not only just 10 years history but bitcoin has proven until now that it can be pumped like anyone can't be imagined and after that, it can come back to its original value within no time. This makes many investors think hard to invest in bitcoin. But I do agree that one should invest their small percentage of money into bitcoin and it may do wonders in near future. Diversifying funds always a good in investment.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: pooya87 on August 19, 2018, 02:15:38 AM
I still stick to my prediciton that in the next few years central banks will release their own state issued crypto and bitcoin will be banned in most developed countries as it will be seen as direct competition by those in power.

every day that passes and with every increase in adoption, banning bitcoin becomes harder and harder specially as they regulate bitcoin. for example in a couple of years as price hits $60k and we start seeing big businesses shape around bitcoin (like Coinbase which already exists), then they can't just ban bitcoin and kill these multi million dollar businesses. so we may end up seeing bitcoin banned in some under developed countries like India and Bangladesh which this one has already banned bitcoin, but there is no way it can be banned in developed countries like US, Japan,... that will have already been mass adopted bitcoin by then.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: supermine on August 19, 2018, 02:44:55 AM
Gold is for the olde generation people,here we are into the most modern technology so they will never give on the gold until the market value of bitcoin exceeds the cap value of gold,so it is still long time process since we are just about $100 Billion only for now!


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: wuvdoll on August 19, 2018, 03:16:36 AM
At what point will some traditional goldbugs publicly accept that they should have at least, diversified some of their gold into Bitcoin? I have added a poll with 5 options, the most conservative one is when BTC reaches 1 $trillion, because I don't expect any of them to admit they were wrong any time sooner than that.
Those orthodox investors will never accept and adopt new technologies, I am afraid. Moreover, bitcoin's marketcap is the criteria only for the people who are following bitcoin in the consideration of investing/adopting it whereas for the people who are still believe into the multi fold futures of gold, only enlighten them with long hours of explanation about the futures of bitcoin and how it is going to replace paypal/dollars/gold with their own specialized reasons, may enable them to think over to switch/add bitcoin to their portfolio.

By January 2017, bitcoin prices beat gold prices of one ounce similarly we may expect bitcoin marketcap will beat gold's in coming years as without Warren Buffet kind of old veteran's support also bitcoin is growing with rapid pace. Probably if Warren Buffet and other stock market giants and institutions will get convinced about the futures of bitcoin then those 'goldbugs' may change their minds.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 19, 2018, 08:51:52 AM
And silver is the tangible equivalent of a shitcoin as far as I'm concerned.

Except silver is one of the most important industrial metals used in electronics, solar panels, photography etc so nothing like a shitcoin with no real world application.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: The Pharmacist on August 19, 2018, 08:58:06 AM
gold has a history of thousands of years
That's goldbug propaganda as far as I'm concerned.  I read that same statement over and over on coinflation's articles, and it doesn't really mean anything.  It doesn't make a lick of difference when gold has been in a bear market for years now.

Except silver is one of the most important industrial metals used in electronics, solar panels, photography etc so nothing like a shitcoin with no real world application.
I won't argue your point about shitcoins, because you're absolutely correct, but as far as the statement about silver's industrial uses goes, that's just more propaganda.  All of that silver used in industry is recycled.  None of it is really lost.  The US Mint alone is producing millions of silver eagles a year in addition to all of their silver commemoratives and proof sets--and there's enough silver around for all of the other mints in the world to basically do the same thing. 

My point is that there no shortage whatsoever of silver, and it doesn't matter if it's being used in industry.  You didn't explicitly make that point that there's a shortage, but I hear that argument a lot in the coinflation articles I mentioned.  And it's bullshit.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 19, 2018, 10:02:56 AM
I won't argue your point about shitcoins, because you're absolutely correct, but as far as the statement about silver's industrial uses goes, that's just more propaganda.  All of that silver used in industry is recycled.  None of it is really lost.  The US Mint alone is producing millions of silver eagles a year in addition to all of their silver commemoratives and proof sets--and there's enough silver around for all of the other mints in the world to basically do the same thing.  

My point is that there no shortage whatsoever of silver, and it doesn't matter if it's being used in industry.  You didn't explicitly make that point that there's a shortage, but I hear that argument a lot in the coinflation articles I mentioned.  And it's bullshit.

Actually its the other way around, gold is mostly recycled and silver is usually not.

BTC is just electronic digits that are infinitely divisible so there will never be a shortage, it just depends what value you put on a satoshi.  Supply is also only limited by a few lines of code that could be changed if the miners + big players decided to do so.  Physical metals are finite and industrial processes and real world use requires a set amount and there is only so much you can keep pulling out of the ground (not taking in to account asteroid mining but that is generations away)

You cant argue the fact that the elite, governments and central banks all base their wealth on physical gold holdings and continue to accumulate it (except retarded Canada).  Not one is hording bitcoin.

Central banks run the world with governments their public facing puppets.  The minute they consider bitcoin a risk to their power base and control they will do everything in their power to end it.  All the signs point to state issued cryptos in the pipeline and that doesnt bode well for "unregulated" crytpos.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: el kaka22 on August 19, 2018, 03:28:50 PM
I never knew we were this close to 1 trillion marketcap. I was expecting it to be a lot higher. $60K per bitcoin doesn't sound impossible neither. I think 1 trillion will just start the slow leaking to bitcoin from legacy investments. Also if you think investors ever accept their mistakes than you have never met with any of them in your life. Gold can stay at 7 trillion forever and bitcoin alone itself can become 100 trillion tomorrow and no investor I have ever met will accept their mistakes. They will spew bs like "its risky" or "gold is bla bla" and what not but will never say "I should have invested in bitcoin a bit" or anything similar.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: cellard on August 19, 2018, 03:30:00 PM
I dumped all my bitcoin into gold when it was near $19k so who fucked up?

Good one. But this is a long term game. Let's see Bitcoin returns vs Gold returns in a couple of years.

Gold always was and always will be the ultimate store of wealth, you just have to ignore short term price noise.  I still stick to my prediciton that in the next few years central banks will release their own state issued crypto and bitcoin will be banned in most developed countries as it will be seen as direct competition by those in power.

And how that wouldn't legitimize Bitcoin as a store of value? If it's a treat for governments, it's a good store of value. I mean if the government cannot put their hand on your pocket with their endless resources, that they have to go to the lengths of "banning it" (whatever that means), then who will?

By them doing that it will just prove they are impotent. They can't compete, so they attack it (and fail doing so, once again).

Also there's no way "governments" form a global coalition, since when have they? there will be some governments that ban it, then there will be other governments which are pro-Bitcoin, and these countries will be happily accepting Bitcointers to retire there and pay decent tax when they buy their luxury villas and cars and so on.

So when a government bans Bitcoin, they have to think bout all the tax and high purchasing power individuals that they are going to lose long term.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: KonstantinosM on August 19, 2018, 04:13:46 PM
7 Trillion.

Gold is just a shiny metal. Eventually we'll mine it from asteroids and the price will, like the asteroid gold. Crash all the way to the ground.


Bitcoin is truly deflationary. People that go all in on gold and avoid bitcoin are short-sighted.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: gentlemand on August 19, 2018, 04:26:04 PM
7 Trillion.

Gold is just a shiny metal. Eventually we'll mine it from asteroids and the price will, like the asteroid gold. Crash all the way to the ground.


Bitcoin is truly deflationary. People that go all in on gold and avoid bitcoin are short-sighted.

What reason is there to mine it from asteroids? Presumably there's more than enough already for actual industrial use. The only reason to mine it in, um, outer space would be to sell it to speculators at which point it's no longer economic to mine it.

The more interesting one is gold in seawater. At the moment the cost of extracting is five times more than the value but that's got to be cheaper than going all Buck Rogers.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 19, 2018, 04:36:10 PM
7 Trillion.

Gold is just a shiny metal. Eventually we'll mine it from asteroids and the price will, like the asteroid gold. Crash all the way to the ground.


Bitcoin is truly deflationary. People that go all in on gold and avoid bitcoin are short-sighted.

What will more likely come first, enough computing power available to a powerful organisation or government to render bitcoins encryption useless or asteroid mining space ships with access to a powerful and cheap enough energy source to make it cost effective.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: realr0ach on August 19, 2018, 05:20:17 PM
Bitcoin is truly deflationary. People that go all in on gold and avoid bitcoin are short-sighted.

They should rename this thread to Indiana r0ach and the temple of noobs.  There's 1/3rd the amount of above ground, investment grade silver today than in 1980 back when silver hit all time highs.  ONE THIRD.  If that's not "deflationary", I don't know what is.  However, there's twice as much gold now as back then.  Then you have other circumstances like silver being the most artificially suppressed asset on the planet, as evidenced by open interest in the COT reports, with gold being nowhere near artificially suppressed (platinum is #2 with gold being way down the line).

It's not even required for someone to pump silver.  All it takes is for the current price rigging scheme to fail and the price goes to outter space.  Rothschild said just the other day the current post-war Bretton woods is now failing....which is just a synonym for the metals price rigging scheme to support the dollar.  So yea, metals are a complete asymmetric trade right now while shitcoins are not.  Even within the govt's rigged system, there was an over 90% correlation between metals and US debt, and they just recently artificially broke even that correlation to try and support NIRP/ZIRP. 

Gold should be around $2500 an ounce even within their rigged and suppressed system.  Silver would shoot up to around $75 when that correlation eventually corrects.  All they're really doing right now is attempting to rig the system right up until the very day a new Bretton Woods occurs, so probably don't expect metals to make their move until you see some economic catastrophe in the headlines forcing them into a new Bretton Woods deal.  When that deal occurs, gold will not be $2500 and silver will not be $75.  It will be more like ten thousand dollar gold and several hundreds of dollars an ounce silver and everyone who is not holding those two assets at the time gets a massive haircut.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: figmentofmyass on August 19, 2018, 07:49:11 PM
well said. the point here is about value storage. gold may not rise nearly as much as bitcoin over time (though the 2001-2011 run was pretty magnificent). but there are other considerations. gold has a history of thousands of years; bitcoin, less than 10. that's a huge difference in risk profile.

that's why it makes sense for wealthy people to dump only a small amount into bitcoin. they need to hedge wisely, not strike it rich.
That's goldbug propaganda as far as I'm concerned.  I read that same statement over and over on coinflation's articles, and it doesn't really mean anything.  It doesn't make a lick of difference when gold has been in a bear market for years now.

lol, bear market for years? that same exact logic applied to bitcoin in late 2015/early 2016. gold literally just ended its biggest bubble in history in 2011 (10 years of hyper bull), what would you expect? immediate explosion into another bubble!? :D

and how is it propaganda? it's just history. gold is regarded by society as a valuable commodity---that's a simple fact with historical backing. the point was about the difference in risk profile: bitcoin's incentives, consensus methods and robustness are simply not time-tested, certainly not when compared to longstanding everyday commodities with sizeable demand over hundreds or thousands of years.

i'm not a goldbug, btw. i very much prefer bitcoin. just talking about risk...... bitcoin is a brand new kind of asset, untested in many ways. it can't just spring up overnight and immediately be considered a traditional investment/hedging asset. it should be considered very high risk/high reward.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: exstasie on August 19, 2018, 08:05:59 PM
BTC is just electronic digits that are infinitely divisible so there will never be a shortage, it just depends what value you put on a satoshi.  Supply is also only limited by a few lines of code that could be changed if the miners + big players decided to do so.

I'm not so sure about that. The miners + big players tried to change a few lines of code to increase maxblocksize, but they failed. You think they could succeed in changing a much holier parameter, the 21 million coin supply?

I think such controversial hard forks will only become harder to implement as time goes on.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 19, 2018, 08:09:57 PM
Never underestimate greed and like fiat bitcoin has a new set of elite in control.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Febo on August 19, 2018, 08:57:50 PM
Goldbugs get a hefty amount of derision too despite their pet rock having value being thousands of years old as a concept.

I don't think they'll ever give up but they may well die off in unprecedented numbers. Never in my entire life have I heard anyone below the age of 70 express the slightest interest in metals.

Lately i saw a lot of youtube channels of young people collecting coins and gold. I was really surprised. But I guess we have this stereotype.   Another thing is that Bitcoin will push millennial's, and however is called that generation after them toward, the Gold, because Bitcoin will open their eyes about fiat.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: KonstantinosM on August 20, 2018, 01:43:38 AM
7 Trillion.

Gold is just a shiny metal. Eventually we'll mine it from asteroids and the price will, like the asteroid gold. Crash all the way to the ground.


Bitcoin is truly deflationary. People that go all in on gold and avoid bitcoin are short-sighted.

What will more likely come first, enough computing power available to a powerful organisation or government to render bitcoins encryption useless or asteroid mining space ships with access to a powerful and cheap enough energy source to make it cost effective.

My guess is as good as yours. I think asteroid mining is easier. If we all wanted to prevent mining centralization, and things really did get bad we can always buy the latest mining gear and crank it to 11. If the government really was interesting in destroying bitcoin they could do it, but then we'd just hardfork to an algorithm that ensures we can outpace the government.

Meanwhile, space mining is inevitable. The gold will probably just be a by-product of more useful resources that are out there. But as long as you can double the supply of gold and get rich in the process why not?

My point was that bitcoin's supply is fixed, while gold can be mined to oblivion.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: realr0ach on August 20, 2018, 08:14:13 AM
Lately i saw a lot of youtube channels of young people collecting coins and gold. I was really surprised.

I 'm not.  The non-fake number for how much Trump won the election by over Clinton is something like 10%+ instead of being close like they claimed.  That's why they were unable to rig the election because it was too much of a landslide.  The majority of people I've seen that voted for Trump seem to prefer metals over shitcoins.  There's a few millenial bugmen and such that prefer bitcoin, but most of them don't have any money anyway.

There's absolutely no reason for the common man to support shitcoins over physical metals.  All cryptocurrencies have transaction validators that are designed to centralize through interest, economy of scale, asymmetric bellcurve's effect on ASIC design, chip foundry startup costs, asymmetric global energy costs, etc.  There's literally thousands of reasons for why shitcoins are designed to centralize.  It's a complete joke.  

Since the tokens are non-fungible and transaction validators designed to centralize, it's probably the best new world order tracking and control grid enslavement tool ever created.  The media is entirely controlled by six companies who actively work to screw you 24 hours a day, and bitcoin is/will be virtually the same thing.  If you do something they don't like, they just blacklist your coins and you no longer exist, just like they ban people on Twitter and Youtube.

Shitcoins do NOT remove middlemen or counterparty risk.  It's all lying scumbags saying that.  Not only do they not remove them, they have them BUILT-IN to the god damned system.  The only thing that removes middlemen and counterparty risk is a physical commodity currency that exists in the real world whether it's silver, gold, oil, or what have you.  It just so happens metals are the only one usable as money in practicality.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: realr0ach on August 20, 2018, 08:34:23 AM
Meanwhile, space mining is inevitable.

God, I keep seeing this buffoonish comment from shitcoiners over and over.  It doesn't matter if it's technically possible, all that matters is cost of production per ounce.  Nobody is going to mine gold in space for a million dollars or more an ounce.  They would mine on the ocean floor or somewhere first.  You might as well make the statement "someday it's inevitable humans will build a Dyson Sphere around the sun".


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Traxo on August 20, 2018, 06:09:44 PM
My point was that bitcoin's supply is fixed, while gold can be mined to oblivion.

Right about now is when according to Shelby, the atavistic retrophiliac markj113 and troglodyte realr0ach start to get that sinking feeling in their stomach that they’ll never recover from selling BTC at $600 to buy silver at $20.

Shelby cited an explanation that Bitcoin’s fixed maximum supply is enforced by a clever game theory which prevents mutability of Satoshi’s v0.53 protocol (http://thebitcoin.foundation/). Gold lacks such a game theory, which is the reason John Nash provided in his Ideal Money manifesto for gold not being a suitable Ideal Money.

The details are near the end of the following linked post:

https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/re-heavyd-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-bitcoin-to-usd15k-in-march-usd8-5k-by-june-then-usd30-k-by-q1-2019-20180819t141422240z




Lately i saw a lot of youtube channels of young people collecting coins and gold. I was really surprised.

I 'm not.  The non-fake number for how much Trump won the election by over Clinton is something like 10%+ instead of being close like they claimed.  That's why they were unable to rig the election because it was too much of a landslide.  The majority of people I've seen that voted for Trump seem to prefer metals over shitcoins.

There's absolutely no reason for the common man to support shitcoins over physical metals.

If we filter by age less than 30, then less than 1 in 1000 of the Republicans you refer to would be willing to accept gold at spot value in any barter transaction. You simply fail to understand that money is based on groupwise PUBLIC CONFIDENCE (https://gist.github.com/shelby3/c192cedaed52ef11ef97acb239dc5986#what-is-money). And PUBLIC CONFIDENCE is impossible for gold when the vast majority don’t believe gold is money anymore. Goldbugs are primarily constituted by mostly old geezers (like yourself) who delude themselves, because you’re entirely dependent on the well capitalized dealers and marker makers for liquidity and these can easily be regulated by the government. This is a grave error on your part @realr0ach.

As for the long-range timing of what you’re forsaking:

https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever

Remember the discussion with Shelby in 2016 and the Youtube videos that show most people don’t want gold even if you give it to them for free:


As cited in my OP, those who have experience economic and social collapse first-hand, have stated that only food, security, medicine, and sin goods are liquid during that scenario. Also any liquid currency that people know they can very readily exchange externally to the collapsed region. Precious metals (especially silver dimes!) don't qualify. Tinfoil hat wearing goldbug idiots are thinking that people will accept their coins in barter. Never going to happen dude. Get a fucking clue about reality.

You also are closed-minded because you are wearing a tinfoil hat (as I used to do) and thus you are blindly married to the concept in which you are vested.

You do realize I am @anonymint, also Legendary (plus a few Hero accounts as well) don't you?

Edit: Selling a 10 oz Silver Bar for $10 (When It's Worth $160) - EXPERIMENT - (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJm3cRRvPoM)

Selling 1 Oz Gold Coin for $25 (when it's worth over $1,500) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndshbH3qZ6Y)

Buying a 99¢ Taco with 1 Ounce Gold Coin (worth over $1000) - from Taco Bell's Drive-Through (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef0VG1WEP10)

Free $5 Bill or Free Silver Dollar? It's Up To You (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr7McLhZmyE)  <--- make sure you listen at 1:30 to the guy who knows the spot price but still won't take the silver dollar!



All cryptocurrencies have transaction validators that are designed to centralize through interest, economy of scale, asymmetric bellcurve's effect on ASIC design, chip foundry startup costs, asymmetric global energy costs, etc.  There's literally thousands of reasons for why shitcoins are designed to centralize.  It's a complete joke.  

Since the tokens are non-fungible and transaction validators designed to centralize, it's probably the best new world order tracking and control grid enslavement tool ever created.  The media is entirely controlled by six companies who actively work to screw you 24 hours a day, and bitcoin is/will be virtually the same thing.  If you do something they don't like, they just blacklist your coins and you no longer exist, just like they ban people on Twitter and Youtube.

Shitcoins do NOT remove middlemen or counterparty risk.  It's all lying scumbags saying that.  Not only do they not remove them, they have them BUILT-IN to the god damned system.  The only thing that removes middlemen and counterparty risk is a physical commodity currency that exists in the real world whether it's silver, gold, oil, or what have you.  It just so happens metals are the only one usable as money in practicality.

It was already explained to you (at the bottom of Steemit post I linked above) the historical evidence that gold has always been a fiat (because money is only groupwise PUBLIC CONFIDENCE) and has not always been money since antiquity.

Gold and Bitcoin are both fiats, but the major distinction is that Satoshi’s v0.53 protocol real Bitcoin (http://thebitcoin.foundation/) has a game theory which makes it immutable and thus it’s impossible to increase its protocol dictated maximum supply of BTC21 million. Click the Steemit post linked above for the detailed exposition. Also Bitcoin can’t be regulated by government due to its jurisdictional arbitrage (https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/re-anonymint-re-anonymint-bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless-20180521t051032993z). Thus Bitcoin subsumes the nation-states as a NWO 666 international reserve asset. Gold can and is highly regulated by the nation-states and that is why it is basically useless for the only possible function it could have now— to hedge against failure of governments. The utility of gold is dying and will be completely dead as your generation of geezers dies over the next couple of decades.




Meanwhile, space mining is inevitable.

It doesn't matter if it's technically possible, all that matters is cost of production per ounce.

Irrelevant. The supply of gold and silver can still be increased by mining some where. If eventually rare earth metals are exhausted on Earth, then maybe humans will need to mine asteroids, but that’s not here nor there relevant. Governments can wreck havoc on countries by intervention in the supply, price, and PUBLIC CONFIDENCE of the metals. Which is the why John Nash explained in his Ideal Money manifesto that gold is not a form of ideal money. That is why Nash basically proposed what Bitcoin is. That is why some people suspect John Nash may have been involved in the creation of Bitcoin. Both Nash and Gavin Andresen were at Princeton. Shelby documented in his discussions with traincarswreck that Nash disappeared from public for a couple of years during which Bitcoin R&D would have been at its peak. He reappeared at conferences on Ideal Money after Satoshi made his last post on this forum.

Note the increase in the gold-to-silver price ratio (decrease in silver-to-gold price ratio) actually started decades before the 1920s boom ended in 1929. The increase coincided with the massive increase in silver supplies due to "Western Silver Discoveries", and probably also exacerbated by the official takeover of fiat in 1913. Notice the downward spike in the ratio from 1932-35, which I explained in my prior article "Fiat Price Of Silver Is Deceptive (https://web.archive.org/web/20130312201829/https://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/moore070306.html)", was due to US government manipulation of the silver price in order to cause a depression in China and force them off a silver legal tender money standard. Thus monetary demand for silver was removed/reduced in the most populated nation on earth.

Note the second drastic rise in the ratio started around 1964, when silver was removed as money from USA coin, flooding the investment market with 2 billion oz of silver. Notice it only took one billionaire investor (Hunt brothers) in silver to spike the ratio back down to roughly 15 in 1980, even with the 2 billion oz supply overhang.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 20, 2018, 07:00:54 PM
Well that was a lot of typing just to demonstrate you know fuck all.

I suggest you quit typing and go get a room with Shelby as your obviously super gay for him, your post history reads like a verbal shelby blow job.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Evan_Doyle on August 20, 2018, 08:24:25 PM
I was wondering, what does it take for a hardcore goldbug like Peter Schiff, or our very own r0ach, to admit that they fucked up big time holding gold instead of Bitcoin?

Currently gold is around 7 $trillion marketcap, I haven't paid attention to gold to get the exact value but last year it was around that. Bitcoin is around 100 $billion as of today.

At what point will some traditional goldbugs publicly accept that they should have at least, diversified some of their gold into Bitcoin? I have added a poll with 5 options, the most conservative one is when BTC reaches 1 $trillion, because I don't expect any of them to admit they were wrong any time sooner than that.

The poll never expires.

I'm not so sure that's what would get their attention. Certainly, you have a valid point and I'm not going to say that it's wrong. But goldbugs see things a bit differently than just market cap and price per ounce.

They're stuck in the doom loop of fiat crashing, futures being erased, and the world reverting to a barter system. This sounds all fine and dandy but what really would cause something like this to happen? There's too much institutional money in fiat for it to just dump and destroy itself. They would never let it happen. They've got too many tricks up their sleeves.

And besides, if it were the apocalypse and you had a farm full of goats, would you really want to trade them for gold?


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 20, 2018, 08:34:58 PM
I'm not so sure that's what would get their attention. Certainly, you have a valid point and I'm not going to say that it's wrong. But goldbugs see things a bit differently than just market cap and price per ounce.

They're stuck in the doom loop of fiat crashing, futures being erased, and the world reverting to a barter system. This sounds all fine and dandy but what really would cause something like this to happen? There's too much institutional money in fiat for it to just dump and destroy itself. They would never let it happen. They've got too many tricks up their sleeves.

And besides, if it were the apocalypse and you had a farm full of goats, would you really want to trade them for gold?

Where you have bitcoin users believe that bitcoin will become the next reserve currency, replace banks, crash the financial system and replace fiat.  

You also have the HODLers that also like to think you buy a bitcoin, sit on it for a few months and wake up one morning a millionaire also buying bitcoin qualifies you as an investment and financial guru instantly giving you qualifications to advise all newbies to sell the house, car, boat and family and go all in no matter what the price.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: The Pharmacist on August 20, 2018, 08:35:29 PM
and how is it propaganda? it's just history. gold is regarded by society as a valuable commodity---that's a simple fact with historical backing.
Yes, but it's being used as an argument to own gold regardless of what the price is--and this is a stupid position to take for any investment.  The people who spout such things are either trying to sell their gold or people who've been brainwashed into believing that losing money is OK as long as they own gold.

lol, bear market for years? that same exact logic applied to bitcoin in late 2015/early 2016.
No, bitcoin hit an ATH in 2014 and another just several years later.  Meanwhile gold is languishing and has been for 7 years, with no signs of rebounding.  And hey, it might turn out that bitcoin never gets adopted by the masses and that this big bull market we're seeing was just a bubble.  I wouldn't rule out that possibility at all.

What goldbugs are basically always saying is, "you can never go wrong with gold".  I think that's totally false.  The average person does not need gold as an investment or as a hedge against inflation.  How well has gold hedged against inflation since 2011?  Can the average middle-class person afford to lock up a lot of money in an asset that provides no income; might cost money to keep secure; might get stolen; and might decrease significantly in value?  I don't think so.

I stand by what I said.  The goldbugs will NEVER tell you it's time to sell gold.  Ever.

Is gold expensive right now considering how much aditional fiat has been pumped into the system through QE.
<snip>
Stocks are artifically inflated, property artificially inflated through stupid low interest rates.
Why hasn't gold's price gone up?  QE should be inflating everything, no?  More money in the system + low interest rates should have people buying record amounts of gold, right?  Why isn't that happening?

I agree about the stock market.  I don't know when this bull market is going to end, but it'll at least be interesting to see what happens to the precious metals market once interest rates start rising.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 20, 2018, 08:42:38 PM
Is gold expensive right now considering how much aditional fiat has been pumped into the system through QE.

Stocks are artifically inflated, property artificially inflated through stupid low interest rates.

Huge amount of global uncertainty in Turkey, Venezuela, France, Italy.  Trade wars underway, global debt at an all time high, the US in over $21 trillion debt (interest payments alone will reach $1 trillion)

Gold thrives on fear and there are a lot of things that go tits up at any time.

Why hasn't gold's price gone up?  QE should be inflating everything, no?  More money in the system + low interest rates should have people buying record amounts of gold, right?  Why isn't that happening?

I agree about the stock market.  I don't know when this bull market is going to end, but it'll at least be interesting to see what happens to the precious metals market once interest rates start rising.

The QE money has not been used as intended, it has not circulated in the economy.  Banks have horded it and used it to pump the stock market, companies are buying back their own stock using cheap money artificially inflating the price.

Regarding gold price - monkey hamered at critical moments using fake paper contracts and a strong dollar is holding it back.

It will all go tits up sooner rather than later and gold price will go substantially higher but no one has a crystal ball to call when that will happen.


Quote
I stand by what I said.  The goldbugs will NEVER tell you it's time to sell gold.  Ever.

How many BTC bugs tell people to dump.  HODL and accumulate no matter what is the normal response.

Quote
The average person does not need gold as an investment or as a hedge against inflation.  How well has gold hedged against inflation since 2011?  Can the average middle-class person afford to lock up a lot of money in an asset that provides no income; might cost money to keep secure; might get stolen; and might decrease significantly in value?  I don't think so.

The same can be said for bitcoin although it poses significantly more volatility and risk over gold.  How many middle class people could tolerate a $19k to $6k dump on their savings?  It does not provide income, far more lose bitcoin to hacking, scams and lost private keys over physical metals theft (check the scam accusation thread on this forum and find me an equivalent on any precious metals forum).  Physical metals open you up to local thieves, bitcoin opens you up to a whole world of hackers.


If gold is a useless old relic then why are so many countries fighting to repatriate their gold from foreign countries?
Why is Russia accumulating so much gold and silver.
Why is China accumulating so much gold and silver.
Why are central banks increasing their gold reserves.

Why are none of the above buying existing crypto but investing in blockchain tech research (spoiler - to release their own state issue crypto in the near future)


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Traxo on August 21, 2018, 07:17:42 PM
I pass the along from Shelby…

The tinfoils hats are going to be touting this:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-08-21/russia-buys-over-800000-ounces-gold-july-it-dumps-us-treasuries

Russia is destroying themselves. Atavistic fools who still think land and gold still have value.

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/russias-goal-to-resurrect-its-empire-by-2020-rain-of-the-parade-of-a-united-europe/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/putins-popularity-soars-as-he-addressed-the-nation-on-tv/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/the-rising-star-of-russia-central-asia/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/russia-imports-more-than-it-sells-oops-more-craziness/

“The Age of Empire is gone. Technology has rendered those ideas antiquated at best. But before these older generations die out, the memory of enemies and empires still haunt the hallow halls in their minds.”

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/markets-by-sector/precious-metals/gold/until-we-understand-the-real-wealth-of-a-nation-progress-cannot-be-achieved/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/wealth-of-a-nation/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/armstrongeconomics101/basic-concepts/what-is-the-strength-of-the-dollar-its-people-military-or-commodities/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/do-the-reserves-of-a-nation-matter-anymore/

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/armstrongeconomics101/economics/modern-love-internet-changing-patterns-in-marriage-divorce/


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 21, 2018, 07:37:18 PM
Russia is destroying themselves. Atavistic fools who still think land and gold still have value.

Russia debt to GDP : 12.6%
US debt to GDP : 105.4%

US just below Butan So who is destroying themselves?
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp

Atavistic fools who still think land and gold still have value.

I presume you also apply that to China?

So land is worthless, gold is worthless.   How many wars have been fought and lives lost over land and resources?

Obviously using big words is not an indication of intelligence.


STT, Shelby wanted me to ask you to do some reading because he strongly disagrees with you about gold:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4920367.msg44422077#msg44422077

Why the fuck do you keep quoting Shelby in all your posts.  Your obviously an alt of Anonymint that they banned, considering red flagging you.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Evan_Doyle on August 21, 2018, 08:44:18 PM
I'm not so sure that's what would get their attention. Certainly, you have a valid point and I'm not going to say that it's wrong. But goldbugs see things a bit differently than just market cap and price per ounce.

They're stuck in the doom loop of fiat crashing, futures being erased, and the world reverting to a barter system. This sounds all fine and dandy but what really would cause something like this to happen? There's too much institutional money in fiat for it to just dump and destroy itself. They would never let it happen. They've got too many tricks up their sleeves.

And besides, if it were the apocalypse and you had a farm full of goats, would you really want to trade them for gold?

Where you have bitcoin users believe that bitcoin will become the next reserve currency, replace banks, crash the financial system and replace fiat.  

You also have the HODLers that also like to think you buy a bitcoin, sit on it for a few months and wake up one morning a millionaire also buying bitcoin qualifies you as an investment and financial guru instantly giving you qualifications to advise all newbies to sell the house, car, boat and family and go all in no matter what the price.

Yeah sure, and I'm not going to defend that way of thinking either because we both know it's completely unrealistic. But you completely avoided my position by pointing the blame on the other side. If you had a farm full of goats, would you really think to trade them for some pieces of gold?

Russia is destroying themselves. Atavistic fools who still think land and gold still have value.

Russia debt to GDP : 12.6%
US debt to GDP : 105.4%

US just below Butan So who is destroying themselves?
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp


This here is a very good point. Russia is actually quite sustainable because of their land and gold. USA, on the other hand, is entirely dependent on other nations buying its debt. What if they don't want to? Or if they can't? Innovations like crypto can't save them from a crisis, but they can be a way out after hitting the bottom.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: STT on August 21, 2018, 08:46:18 PM
Russia holds a far higher percentage in gold then most western governments.   China is accumulating but still quite a low percentage.  There is some historical precedent where gold is respected in even communist economies, apparently the USSR held a very high percentage in the 1950's but I read that a while back so dont have a source to post now.

The price on gold might appear to be nothing dramatic but I thought it was bullish ever since 2009 when it rose from its already high peak to greater heights.   I realise its been pulling back a while now but I dont see that gold holdings are especially designed or intended to creative speculative profits.   I go with the idea the price for gold never really changes, its just reflecting loss of value in the currencies used to purchase it and its a ten year asset type useful for a pension hold of value not trading to profits.

Anyone who wants to invest in gold has to take part in mining operations or maybe its use as jewellery.  I think Buffet states the cheapest gold is mining on the high street, via his pawn shop operations.  Otherwise just holding plain gold should appear to be totally boring, its just some metal and does not perform any task while unused.  Also it requires no maintenance, BTC also I never think of as an investment by itself and it must be used but BTC is far more volatile and changing.  
 Growth based could be an argument so long as its being developed then that reflects in the base unit valued more highly but only indirectly by that greater usage.  On the negative side if BTC does not progress then it falls back far more harshly, its far sharper in its peaks and troughs where gold is generally flat.   Both react to US dollar strength or weakness as do many commodities but especially as they can be used as alternatives.

BTC has a greater monetary velocity but that doesnt make it superior to gold except perhaps for the sub gram transactions where a digital format has potential to be the most efficient method of instantly transferring value at the lowest spread.  At present BTC is not as efficient as it needs to be to do well long term and overcoming this flaw could be key to regaining or just holding previous gains.


Theres zero likelihood of a goldbug or just any user of gold needing to give up on a failed market especially.   Its perfectly inert and able to sustain its price vs a failing global reserve system based off politics.   The most obvious long term argument for gold usage likely to rise over decades is net central bank buying.  If the market itself does not reflect a reasonable popular price then still central banks continue to exchange gold as a reserve asset in settling debts between countries of especially large amounts.  If that trend is rising that banks increase their holdings and its been true for a decade then in time the price for gold is not especially due to contract.

Bitcoin on the other hand I think best suits the smallest amounts transferred and perhaps the most often.   It must be ready for that purpose to be useful and then value can be built upon that usage and higher speculative activity is justified.  But the base case for BTC imo in enabling business that might otherwise not occur, this is no insult to refer to the smallest amounts as the greatest growth rates come from the smallest entities and as we all know most of the world is not rich.
  If crypto can enable the poorest to greater confidence and efficiency in value transfer it would be such a positive event for all involved, thats a market with many billion people.  Where as the simple base case for gold I mentioned is just between merely dozens who barter in many billions of worth, a much more restricted and staid market.

https://i.imgur.com/xXPcR1D.png

How does someone with almost nothing in our eyes get paid reliably for 2 dollar or less.  Can BTC be helpful in raising monetary velocity between those people and enabling greater trade, employment, utility and growth from the smallest 'wealth'  Growth of that type can double, it could be dramatic if possible to engage because the numbers who can use such a tool in their life is likely billions

Quote
USA, on the other hand, is entirely dependent on other nations buying its debt

USA just needs to reorganise and respect growth in its productive economy.   In that change, some debt will not be paid because its not productive.  USA by itself can self support from assets but it would no longer benefit from being the world reserve currency at that point.   So money would cost more, its at this point the goldbug will say this means likely money is gold. 
  That money could then still be used internationally despite the failure of the previous political economy where as the debt could not, the dollar is tied to debt.   That imbalance is where gold price or marketcap as per thread title is not falling long term


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Evan_Doyle on August 22, 2018, 07:39:23 PM

Theres zero likelihood of a goldbug or just any user of gold needing to give up on a failed market especially.   Its perfectly inert and able to sustain its price vs a failing global reserve system based off politics.   The most obvious long term argument for gold usage likely to rise over decades is net central bank buying.  If the market itself does not reflect a reasonable popular price then still central banks continue to exchange gold as a reserve asset in settling debts between countries of especially large amounts.  If that trend is rising that banks increase their holdings and its been true for a decade then in time the price for gold is not especially due to contract.

Bitcoin on the other hand I think best suits the smallest amounts transferred and perhaps the most often.   It must be ready for that purpose to be useful and then value can be built upon that usage and higher speculative activity is justified.  But the base case for BTC imo in enabling business that might otherwise not occur, this is no insult to refer to the smallest amounts as the greatest growth rates come from the smallest entities and as we all know most of the world is not rich.
  If crypto can enable the poorest to greater confidence and efficiency in value transfer it would be such a positive event for all involved, thats a market with many billion people.  Where as the simple base case for gold I mentioned is just between merely dozens who barter in many billions of worth, a much more restricted and staid market.

Great ideas. Bitcoin certainly serves as a more useful form of moving money from one point to the other. It has been used more so by those who don't want to attract attention by moving that money, which is what determines its value. That and its ability to subvert the middleman.

Gold is only able to do this in the smallest amounts. It can more readily serve as a sign of wealth, and it gives
people comfort to have a physical sign of that wealth.

Both serve as good hedges against incompetent governments and political risks, but neither yield interest so are avoided by institutional investors.

Because of Bitcoin's accessibility, it is clearly the more useful one in the long term.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: timerland on August 22, 2018, 09:22:23 PM
Peter Schiff's entire business is based on him convincing others about gold as a good long term investment, so I really doubt that he's going to give up any time soon. However, we're seeing some other gold bugs like Mike Maloney switch to a more pro-bitcoin stance.

Admitting that bitcoin was a superior investment is one thing, but they're probably just going to continue to tell others to hoard silver and gold into the future, regardless of past performances.

I think that precious metals can be a good store of value in the long run, but it's doesn't have anything close to bitcoin in terms of its long term potential. Besides, bitcoin basically fulfills all the roles that gold and silver used to play in the past.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: exstasie on August 22, 2018, 11:04:09 PM
I think that precious metals can be a good store of value in the long run, but it's doesn't have anything close to bitcoin in terms of its long term potential. Besides, bitcoin basically fulfills all the roles that gold and silver used to play in the past.

I don't really view them as competitors. Managing investments, to me, is more about minimizing risk than maximizing gains. Hedging is all about preparing for the unpredictable, and most importantly not keeping all your eggs in one basket. While the outlook for Bitcoin is quite promising, it's still one of the more risky assets one can buy.

Though my biggest investment exposure is Bitcoin, I've been buying into swing lows on gold and silver (physical) for years for that reason. If I could have found a tenable custody solution for crude oil in 2016, I'd have been buying crude as well. Instead, I just swing trade the Proshares ETF. ;)


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: pitiflin on August 22, 2018, 11:43:42 PM
Most of the goldbugs are old, and have an old-fashion mindset, they hate tech stuff. And bitcoin would be "complicated" to them, not to mention that it is a "Ponzi scheme" or a "scam" in their eyes. Only a true goldbug would be able to convince other goldbugs that bitcoin is not like what they think it is, but its something else.

$1 trillion dollar market cap for Bitcoin is such an important and powerful statement, that it will definitely result in not only capital parked in Gold to shift towards Bitcoin, but pretty much all legacy assets will start bleeding to a certain degree.

After that $1 trillion dollar milestone the "slow" capital (the braver institutions, governments, hedge funds, royal families, etc) will start to massively inflate Bitcoin's price towards even greater hights. It would be a tremendous achievement when governments will finally start stocking up Bitcoin instead of just Gold.

It's actually quite 'easy' to see Bitcoin hit a market cap of $1 trillion. Bitcoin at $60,000 with a circulating supply of around 18 million coins at that point is only a matter of time. Realistically, we're just another bull run away from doing it.
That bull run, realistically might not happen. That would have to be a pretty darn big bull run. The current marketcap is like a 100 Billion $, we need 900 Billion more, and the world economy is not in a good shape. Why are people ignoring the fact that there is recession all over the world, and there's not enough money to feed people, even though there are trillions of dollars. For the 900 Billion dollars to get in bitcoin, it won't be easy, people have to believe in it, and there's no reason for them to believe in it, satoshi is no longer active in the community, his identity is unknown, markets are volatile ,and bitcoin is decentralized. People will never get the point of decentralization. Its so fucking not easy for bitcoin to hit a trillion dollar market cap. There's more to this than what it seems,and people need to understand that.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: STT on August 23, 2018, 05:59:16 AM
Most of the goldbugs are old, and have an old-fashion mindset, they hate tech stuff. And bitcoin would be "complicated" to them, not to mention that it is a "Ponzi scheme" or a "scam" in their eyes. Only a true goldbug would be able to convince other goldbugs that bitcoin is not like what they think it is, but its something else.

Its possible to be both.  Gold is only something used as a counter balance, so goldbug to me would mean someone who holds far too much.  I'd say about 1% is fine for most people as often the actual wealth people have to lay away for ten years is tiny.   Thats the time scale for gold really, it'd be more relevant stated as a kind of cash hold in a pension.

The QE programs are tied to pension funds owned by government.   So anyone reliant on that could get a horrible shock one day, hence gold would qualify as a non parallel asset neither dollar nor bond.  Forget price, in risk terms its positive to a portfolio

I agree the bugs overlook the ideas that BTC enables and its a great shame.   Some compromise by both sides would be best, but thats the idea of a goldbug I guess

Quote
Peter Schiff's entire business is based on him convincing others about gold as a good long term investment
I dont think he'd agree with that wording.  Gold gives no yield, in purely negative terms its avoiding investment risk by non involvement.  Also theres no returns on the capital, if anything storage has a % cost to it.    Even the actual price appreciation is inverse to dollar failings which are substantial and without end.
Investment would only qualify when taking part in mining operations and that is often quite risky.   A good mine will operate many hedges to its costs even then they are often encountering many problems with financing as operations take a decade to establish usually.
The story for schiff is more complicated then just gold, he is mostly an investment manager so he is competing for pensions funds and the like.  Plain gold is a low margin business as its quite simple, not profitable to hawk


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Traxo on August 23, 2018, 03:18:16 PM
Russia is destroying themselves. Atavistic fools who still think land and gold still have value.

Russia debt to GDP : 12.6%
US debt to GDP : 105.4%

US just below Butan So who is destroying themselves?
https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to-gdp


This here is a very good point. Russia is actually quite sustainable because of their land and gold. USA, on the other hand, is entirely dependent on other nations buying its debt. What if they don't want to? Or if they can't? Innovations like crypto can't save them from a crisis, but they can be a way out after hitting the bottom.

A strawman is a not refutation. It is running away from the point.

The point was made that Russia is investing in antiquated things instead of having a free market economy that maximizes competition and opportunities for its people.
Because in the knowledge age the wealth of a nation is the capability of its people in the free market of knowledge production.
The era of empire building is over. Apparently you did not even read the links that were provided.

The USA is decadent also, but that's no argument. Compare Russia to Asia which instead has a dynamic, diverse, decentralized free market economy.


Why the fuck do you keep quoting Shelby in all your posts.  Your obviously an alt of Anonymint that they banned, considering red flagging you.

Why do you think you have a right to tell me what I can post?

And the matter of whether I am an alt was settled as "provably not". Here is the link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1887077.msg42165851#msg42165851

So land is worthless, gold is worthless.   How many wars have been fought and lives lost over land and resources?

Did the Internet arrive 100 years ago?

Before gold was money there were other forms of money such as tally sticks, iron plates, copper plates, animal skins, sea shells, etc.
Gold was a technological innovation in fungibility. But every technology eventually becomes antiquated.




Russia holds a far higher percentage in gold then most western governments.   China is accumulating but still quite a low percentage.

Again Russia is an example of myopic decadence. Asia is the future and you can see they're starting to move away from the commodities and resources export driven model towards an integrated (Asian Union) Knowledge Age services economy.
Again readers should read the following linked blog and all the comments below it:

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless

Also this:

https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/re-epitt925-re-anonymint-re-epitt925-re-anonymint-most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever-20180820t011835219z

There is some historical precedent where gold is respected in even communist economies, apparently the USSR held a very high percentage in the 1950's but I read that a while back so dont have a source to post now.

China is far more capitalist than the USA and Europe now. The West is turning towards totalitarianism (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4675898.msg43123568#msg43123568) via extremism that results in the end-game collapse of socialism and progressivism.

And Asia is moving forward into the Knowledge Age. Precious metals are dying as a store-of-value.

Also nation-states and central banks are dying never to return (https://steemit.com/politics/@anonymint/re-anonymint-don-t-falsely-accuse-me-of-being-a-misogynist-20180822t133443875z) to prominence as a NWO with John Nash's Ideal Money (i.e. Bitcoin) as the new paradigm. It's Just Time. The Internet arrived. Everything changed.

You need to understand the nation-states only ever existed to foster increased cooperation between humans, but this was when the primarily mode of cooperation was via large fixed capital investment in the Agricultural and Industrial Ages (which are now dying as we move into the Knowledge Age). Shelby has written about this extensively:

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/re-anonymint-bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless-20180519t120410615z

https://steemit.com/philosophy/@anonymint/geographical-cultural-ethos-science-is-dead-part-2
https://steemit.com/science/@anonymint/the-golden-knowledge-age-is-rising
https://steemit.com/money/@anonymint/get-ready-for-a-world-currency
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=355212.0 (Rise of Knowledge, Demise of (fungible) Finance)

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless
https://steemit.com/politics/@anonymint/re-anonymint-don-t-falsely-accuse-me-of-being-a-misogynist-20180822t133443875z
https://steemit.com/money/@anonymint/countries-vulnerable-to-economic-devastation-soon
https://steemit.com/politics/@anonymint/why-social-media-software-sucks
https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/why-crypto-tokens-are-important
https://steemit.com/psychology/@anonymint/is-all-virtual-activity-mind-control


The price on gold might appear to be nothing dramatic but I thought it was bullish ever since 2009 when it rose from its already high peak to greater heights.   I realise its been pulling back a while now but I dont see that gold holdings are especially designed or intended to creative speculative profits.   I go with the idea the price for gold never really changes, its just reflecting loss of value in the currencies used to purchase it and its a ten year asset type useful for a pension hold of value not trading to profits.

Gold will decline below $1050 during the strong dollar-short vortex (https://steemit.com/money/@anonymint/countries-vulnerable-to-economic-devastation-soon) perhaps as low as $850. Then during the coming collapse of the West and realignment of global economy towards Asia, gold may rise as high as $3000 – $5000 whilst Bitcoin goes to $250,000+. Gold no higher than that, whilst Bitcoin will eventually rise to $million+ long-term (https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever). After that precious metals will go into a terminal decline and eventually be basically worthless other than industrial and jewelry demand. As the Bible says in Revelation about the coming NWO, you will throw your gold and silver into the streets for it will not help you in that time.

Theres zero likelihood of a goldbug or just any user of gold needing to give up on a failed market especially.   Its perfectly inert and able to sustain its price vs a failing global reserve system based off politics.   The most obvious long term argument for gold usage likely to rise over decades is net central bank buying.

Refuted above.

Bitcoin on the other hand I think best suits the smallest amounts transferred and perhaps the most often.

You entirely do not understand what Bitcoin was created for. It will end up kicking all the non-$billionaires off-chain. Bitcoin is to be the world's NWO reserve currency. Some reading material for you:

https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/re-quillfiller-re-anonymint-most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever-20180821t193431892z
https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/re-anonymint-re-anonymint-bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless-20180521t051032993z
https://medium.com/@shelby_78386/ive-been-trying-to-explain-this-to-martin-armstrong-6bba1d871df3





I think that precious metals can be a good store of value in the long run

Based on what logic?

The reality is precious metals are being phased out by the advances of humankind, analogous to how chunks of iron displaced animal skins as money, chunks of copper or bronze displaced iron as money, and gold displaced chunks of copper as money. The Internet and the computer revolution are ushering in the Knowledge Age.



While the outlook for Bitcoin is quite promising, it's still one of the more risky assets one can buy.

It's the least risky, because it's the only asset you can buy that will not end up making you 100 times poorer as we pass through the transition from nation-state central banking to the NWO Ideal Money over the next decade or two.

@realr0ach sold BTC at $600 to buy silver at $20. He is already 40 times poorer. Those who don't buy Bitcoin are going to end up destitute, no matter how much wealth they started with.





Where you have bitcoin users believe that bitcoin will become the next reserve currency, replace banks, crash the financial system and replace fiat.

Yeah sure, and I'm not going to defend that way of thinking either because we both know it's completely unrealistic.

It's not only realistic, it's already well underway.



It's actually quite 'easy' to see Bitcoin hit a market cap of $1 trillion. Bitcoin at $60,000 with a circulating supply of around 18 million coins at that point is only a matter of time. Realistically, we're just another bull run away from doing it.

That bull run, realistically might not happen. That would have to be a pretty darn big bull run. The current marketcap is like a 100 Billion $, we need 900 Billion more, and the world economy is not in a good shape. Why are people ignoring the fact that there is recession all over the world, and there's not enough money to feed people, even though there are trillions of dollars.

All cryptocurrency already touched $1 trillion in 2017 and we will surpass it in 2019 (https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/re-heavyd-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-bitcoin-to-usd15k-in-march-usd8-5k-by-june-then-usd30-k-by-q1-2019-20180819t141422240z), but we will not establish a firm base above $1 trillion until after 2024:

https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever
https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/re-quillfiller-re-anonymint-most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever-20180821t193431892z

The fallacy of your concern about the collapse of the West and the rise of Asia as the economic center of the world by 2033, is that:

  • You don't understand that Asia is rising.
  • The collapse of the West is part of the transition to the Knowledge Age and Bitcoin is not for the masses, but rather for the future $billionaires as an Ideal Money NWO decentralized reserve currency.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 23, 2018, 05:45:00 PM
Again Russia is an example of myopic decadence. Asia is the future and you can see they're starting to move away from the commodities and resources export driven model towards an integrated (Asian Union) Knowledge Age services economy.
Again readers should read the following linked blog and all the comments below it:

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless

You cant live in or farm a bitcoin.

gold, silver, copper, gas, coal, uranium, oil and other commodities are the backbone that powers the knowledge age without them our entire civilsation would collapse but you claim they are becoming worthless.


You entirely do not understand what Bitcoin was created for. It will end up kicking all the non-$billionaires off-chain. Bitcoin is to be the world's NWO reserve currency. Some reading material for you:

So once they kick everyone off the blockchain where is all the hash power going to come from to secure the network?

If they are going to purchase the hash power then why use bitcoin at all, why not start a NWO-coin with no additional outlay buying up existing coins and secure it with their own new hash power?

You also dont seem to grasp everything you post is just an opinion, no one has a crystal ball and if you were so clever to predit the future with any degree of accuracy you would be a wealthy man out enjoying yourself rather than endlessly regurgitating "Shelby" on this forum.

Also do you think its appropriate always lposting links to people that have been banned from this forum?



Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Traxo on August 23, 2018, 06:03:11 PM
You cant live in or farm a bitcoin.

gold, silver, copper, gas, coal, uranium and other commodities are the backbone that powers the knowledge age without them our entire civilsation would collapse but you claim they are becoming worthless.

You have some detailed and exhaustive reading to do. You always ignore the links provided because you think you already know-it-all.

You entirely do not understand what Bitcoin was created for. It will end up kicking all the non-$billionaires off-chain. Bitcoin is to be the world's NWO reserve currency. Some reading material for you:

So once they kick everyone off the blockchain where is all the hash power going to come from to secure the network?

If they are going to purchase the hash power then why use bitcoin at all, why not start a NWO-coin with no additional outlay buying up existing coins and secure it with their own new hash power?

The hash power is mostly free for the TPTB that surreptitiously control Bitcoin from behind the veil of anonymity of mining, charged to the collective (i.e. the people of the world) in the form of large government financed CAPEX projects to build hydroelectric dams for example.

Remember the surreptitious control aspect of Bitcoin is critically important. That is how they move to the NWO without any resistance. Nobody can prove that anybody is in control of Bitcoin.


Also do you think its appropriate always lposting links to people that have been banned from this forum?

Shelby banned for his behavior of cross-posting, doesn't mean I am banned from sharing any information I find to be interesting. The person was banned, not his ideas.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 23, 2018, 06:14:41 PM
You still havent explained why the NWO would bother buying up all existing bitcoin kicking everyone else off the blockchain when they have access to all this free hash power and could just launch NWO-coin with zero initial outlay for their own uses.

As the Bible says in Revelation about the coming NWO, you will throw your gold and silver into the streets for it will not help you in that time.

Ill pass on taking financial advice from the bible.

Those who don't buy Bitcoin are going to end up destitute, no matter how much wealth they started with.

That will be about 99.99% of the worlds population currently then.  With everyone destitute who is going to get up for work in the morning to keep the power on, the internet running (could be a problem for your crypto network), the hospitals and shops open?   Do you actually stop and read the bullshit you post?

You claim all this knowledge and yet I bet your broke living paycheck to paycheck with regurgitating Shelby your only sense of importance in life.

Post a signed message including my username from a bitcoin wallet holding over $100k and you have some credibility.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: STT on August 23, 2018, 08:39:28 PM
Quote
After that precious metals will go into a terminal decline and eventually be basically worthless other than industrial and jewelry demand.

Base use for gold might be as plain metal, rare because its only made in supernovas but all the same available in quantities suitable for electronics and jewellery even.    The reason its used for money over thousands of years is because it never degrades or changes, its perfectly divisible and ideal for trade and storing of wealth.  
I think its arrogant to believe we have altered a trend that has been in existence that long.  Maybe it'll be a great thing when it does happen, perhaps free energy will mean gold is a pointless weight from then on.   Bitcoin is a technology while great its not replacing the idea and worth of gold, it may be more convenient but its not a replacement for golds unique qualities as an element.  

I totally love technology have done for decades, great growth is possible and its amazing but in this case it has not made traditional stores of value redundant.   If gold didnt exist, I'd argue the case for other commodities to exist in their long term worth.  Less tradable perhaps as qualities vary but still we haven't altered gold as a metal placed within an economy so a great decline I find especially unlikely.

Quote
You entirely do not understand what Bitcoin was created for. It will end up kicking all the non-$billionaires off-chain. Bitcoin is to be the world's NWO reserve currency.

My personal take on capitalism is that its a bottom up system, with growth primarily occurring with the smallest entities.   The current world system does favour the very largest organisations with a great bias and the world is worse off for it.  If Bitcoin is to do well it'll likely come via enabling the most remote unadvantaged participants in an economy.
Its no insult to say bitcoin is for the smallest trades, its really a great accomplishment if it can do this.    Thats the heart of what a bit is referring to imo and I hope BTC never loses focus to become just a hedge fund ticket.   Besides anything else we already have lots of speculative assets to bet on, BTC should be high utility and the worth really is by accident derived because people keep around those bits in their pocket even when their poor.  Theres a billion poor so get the market cap in essense for the most unlikely poorest traders


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Traxo on August 23, 2018, 08:57:34 PM
You still havent explained why the NWO would bother buying up all existing bitcoin kicking everyone else off the blockchain when they have access to all this free hash power and could just launch NWO-coin with zero initial outlay for their own uses.

You seem to not understand that the masses will be kicked off because when BTC rises to $million+ then transaction fees in excess of $5000 (perhaps as high as $50,000) per transaction.
TPTB pay the fees to themselves since they are also eventually the miners. TPTB don’t need to buy Bitcoin from the masses, the masses will pay it to them as transaction fees.

Again I already told you they needed Bitcoin to develop organically from the bottom-up so that there would be no resistance to the NWO. Bitcoin has to become everyone's unit-of-account first before everyone is totally kicked off. The kicking off will occur in stages as the price and transaction fees rise organically.

And again, no one will be able to prove that there's anyone in control of Bitcoin. If they had done it only for themselves from the start, it would never be adopted by the world. There would be resistance.

Post a signed message including my username from a bitcoin wallet holding over $50k and you have some credibility.
This is private information that should remain private. You reveal your identity and prove how much money you have and see how it works out for you.

That will be about 99.99% of the worlds population currently then.

Not for long:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4942336.msg44570029#msg44570029

Also more than 2% of the Japanese population owns cryptocurrency as of end of 2017. Rising rapidly.



I think its arrogant to believe we have altered a trend that has been in existence that long.

It's important to distinguish butthurt ego from facts (http://www.coolpage.com/commentary/economic/shelby/Demise%20of%20Finance,%20Rise%20of%20Knowledge.html#EconomyofKnowledge) (the link explains that Iron was a precious metal and money 323 B.C.). So not only is the trend of gold just a small fraction of recorded civilization, but there is a chart of an inexorable trend of decline in value for physical things at that link.

There was never any arrogance involved. You are projecting your own ego there.


I totally love technology have done for decades, great growth is possible and its amazing but in this case it has not made traditional stores of value redundant.

No technology really has inexorably made physical things less and less valuable. And the Internet and the computer are accelerating that trend to the extent that gold is losing its function as money. Paper money was the first invention that relegated gold to second tier status, and now Bitcoin will replace the second tier as well. The fat lady is about to sing on gold.



Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: STT on August 23, 2018, 09:17:06 PM
Quote
then transaction fees in excess of $5000 (perhaps as high as $50,000) per transaction.
TPTB pay the fees to themselves since they are also eventually the miners. TPTB don’t need to buy Bitcoin from the masses, the masses will pay it to them as transaction fees.

This represents inefficiency then, every free capitalist market is driven by efficiency in line with profitable arbitrage.    To have a build up of transaction fees represented failure I think.   I really see this as a problem for BTC overall, that it has a rising cost of processing is not ok.  
                However I think the protocol can be developed further and will harness technology to become more able for the same price.  Thats the path of every other industry and technology, over times cars have invariably become pretty amazing.  People may look down on some random junker car but the average has gifted even the cheapest cars with fuel injection and impressive reliability.  I'm old enough to remember when old cars rusted away in the rain and the engines became horribly unbalanced as the carburettor no longer throttled properly.  Fixable sure but not reliable or especially efficient, nowadays people buy new just to show off but its undeniable that the base technology improved, became cheaper more able.  

I do expect BTC to either improve or lose the game to another parallel innovation.  Of what kind I dont know but ultimately none of us chooses who wins or loses, its the giant market of billions of people who as a herd will determine who gets that great cost advantage of serving the masses.   Its obvious to us all that US dollar is horrible flawed and weakened by political bias, but I dont presume a successor.

By arrogant I just mean the human trait we are all guilty of.  BTC came a long way and its reasonable to presume it will just continue, I think it will require constant work to not fall by the wayside.  It will need more transaction capability, better quality of service and ideally be perfectly cheap for the very poorest people because theres billions of those people not served by USD treasury debt traded in 100k bundles currently.  Thats the market vacuum waiting for a worthy successor imo


If you would believe BTC replaces gold in this elite wealth idea, then what would be in the position of silver or copper for the masses in that scenario ?


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 23, 2018, 10:59:48 PM
Also the elite already own the gold so why would they make it worthless and start over with bitcoin?


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: pitiflin on August 23, 2018, 11:03:42 PM
Its possible to be both.  Gold is only something used as a counter balance, so goldbug to me would mean someone who holds far too much.  I'd say about 1% is fine for most people as often the actual wealth people have to lay away for ten years is tiny.   Thats the time scale for gold really, it'd be more relevant stated as a kind of cash hold in a pension.

The QE programs are tied to pension funds owned by government.   So anyone reliant on that could get a horrible shock one day, hence gold would qualify as a non parallel asset neither dollar nor bond.  Forget price, in risk terms its positive to a portfolio

I agree the bugs overlook the ideas that BTC enables and its a great shame.   Some compromise by both sides would be best, but thats the idea of a goldbug I guess
A goldbug actually means, if a person likes having gold. Gold is treated as an investment, so it doesn't mean that all goldbugs hold a shitload of gold. A true goldbug never really likes bitcoin. Or any crypto. Its against their traditions.

What do QE programs have to do with goldbugs?


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: STT on August 23, 2018, 11:24:32 PM
QE programs are related to dollar worth because the bonds ultimately will pay out value in Dollars.   Bonds while constantly renewed do not especially appear in the normal money supply, hence how they are tied to Pensions.    That excess supply of dollars is what will appear to make gold rise in price, the market valuing stability of supply in gold over the idea of QE

I'd agree a goldbug is excluding the value of other possibilities, usually especially bearish.  Technology being strongly growth related would not appear to match a good bearish case.    I dont think most gold holders are goldbugs, the largest buyers of gold now are central banks and I presume they are going to use that gold as a reserve asset maybe nationally to back paper government issuance.   Having a practical use for gold would not represent a bearish scenario, probably goes back to the gold smiths handing out credit notes hundreds of years ago.   The notes had a utility to them in their exchange, the gold became monetised and it enabled liquidity and growth by that value being exchanged easily same argument as BTC might have in many scenarios.


Quote
Also the elite already own the gold so why would they make it worthless and start over with bitcoin?
Gold can also be mined out of the ground by anyone with some skill.   I know thats an idealistic point of view, most gold is mined by large professional companies.   But its not true of all gold supply, there is a section of gold found which can be available to anyone in that area depending on luck to some extent.

This could also be stated as a negative as gold miners disrupt native peoples in the amazon rain forest for example.   Its considered quite destructive mining and with the use of mercury also dangerous


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: realr0ach on August 24, 2018, 02:02:40 AM
Don't bother responding to Anonymint about metals.  All he's doing is praying shitcoins win and metals don't go up because he owns shitcoins and no metals.  He's just a disinformation agent at this point.  Anyone with a clue about markets knows metals are currently in one of the largest inverse bubbles in world history and the upcoming metals bull run will be that of legend:

Since most of you guys are JayJuanGee-level economists, let me go ahead and tell you the fair market value of the DOW is 8500-9000.  So expect it to probably drop below that when it does crash before rebounding, assuming the PPT doesn't just implement full blown communism and prints their own number.  The insider info is that they will never allow that to happen and will engineer hyperinflation before allowing deflation to happen since the banks would cease to exist.  Right now it seems like they're just printing money and handing it ONLY to insolvent banks to keep them afloat while the real economy collapses (so communism).

As for metals, there's no way they're stopping the next metals bull run which is going to go to at least $2200 gold in current buying power and $75 silver in current buying power.  They will likely spike higher than that before dropping in a blowoff top to $2500+ gold and something like $100 silver.  It's not hard to see from looking at the chart this could be the biggest metals pump in world history in terms of where it currently sits and my numbers are probably low-balling it considering while all this is going on, it will probably trigger the reset/new Bretton Woods and they will just set gold to some absurd number like $5-10k and silver to hundreds of dollars an ounce:

https://i.imgur.com/8cb2Z0M.png


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: KonstantinosM on August 24, 2018, 03:39:41 AM
I don't know if I made my point clear, but gold mining in space is a real issue if our civilization lasts another 50 years.


Gold is kind of useless. So it will be mined as a by-product of the useful stuff. After it is mined it can very easily be loaded onto a rocket and parachuted into the earth.

Compared to the tiny amount of gold that we can mine on earth, the amount of gold you could get from an asteroid is stupendous.

If you truly think that people won't just rocket boost that space gold back to earth for a quick buck from people who like shiny things you're wrong. Somebody will find that asteroid containing 100 Trillion worth of gold at today's prices, and when they drop that baby onto planet earth the price of gold will decrease 10-fold.

Don't underestimate the possibility of that.


And it's not like you need to go to space to mine gold. There certainly is plenty of gold left to mine right here on planet earth.

Also what happens if a company simply puts equipment in an asteroid and then sells the gold to investors? Couldn't the price of gold drop without the gold even being transported to earth?

I could continue at length about just this small facet of why gold is inferior to Bitcoin as a currency but I won't. I think I've made my point.

Bitcoin is truly limited and deflationary even. Gold is inflationary and it's value is questionable.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: realr0ach on August 24, 2018, 05:31:37 AM
I don't know if I made my point clear, but gold mining in space is a real issue if our civilization lasts another 50 years.

Bullshit and you people that keep spamming this just make yourselves look stupid each time you type it.  Mining gold that costs a million dollars an ounce to produce in space is not viable and is absolutely ZERO threat to anyone that purchased gold that was mined on earth.  Since silver weighs more/takes up more space for what they would be trying to bring back, it's even LESS viable to mine in space and was already a better buy than gold anyway.  So stop even talking about gold in the first place when the GSR is 80:1 and silver is like god himself walking up and handing you a platter of free money by buying it instead.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Febo on August 24, 2018, 11:55:05 AM
I don't know if I made my point clear, but gold mining in space is a real issue if our civilization lasts another 50 years.

Bullshit and you people that keep spamming this just make yourselves look stupid each time you type it.  Mining gold that costs a million dollars an ounce to produce in space is not viable and is absolutely ZERO threat to anyone that purchased gold that was mined on earth.  Since silver weighs more/takes up more space for what they would be trying to bring back, it's even LESS viable to mine in space and was already a better buy than gold anyway.  So stop even talking about gold in the first place when the GSR is 80:1 and silver is like god himself walking up and handing you a platter of free money by buying it instead.


I agree. Silver is problem to store even on Earth. So dreaming about it in space is far to early. I remember in January I was thinking to turn part of my crypto into silver and when saw how big pile would that be I immediately stooped thinking of silver.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: markj113 on August 24, 2018, 12:06:18 PM
I agree. Silver is problem to store even on Earth. So dreaming about it in space is far to early. I remember in January I was thinking to turn part of my crypto into silver and when saw how big pile would that be I immediately stooped thinking of silver.

thats what gold is for.

A $40k bar is the size of a smart phone.
https://i.imgur.com/lMMNCCW.jpg


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Febo on August 24, 2018, 06:09:07 PM
I agree. Silver is problem to store even on Earth. So dreaming about it in space is far to early. I remember in January I was thinking to turn part of my crypto into silver and when saw how big pile would that be I immediately stooped thinking of silver.

thats what gold is for.

A $40k bar is the size of a smart phone.

I understand that. And even in my country my government says so since Gold is tax free, but silver is not. But whenever i go i read how gold silver rate is to high as it was in past and should get closer. So people speculate buying solver is better then gold. But when you think how to store and handle it then , ...


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: realr0ach on August 25, 2018, 08:46:12 AM
I don't know if I made my point clear, but gold mining in space is a real issue if our civilization lasts another 50 years.

Bullshit and you people that keep spamming this just make yourselves look stupid each time you type it.  Mining gold that costs a million dollars an ounce to produce in space is not viable and is absolutely ZERO threat to anyone that purchased gold that was mined on earth.  Since silver weighs more/takes up more space for what they would be trying to bring back, it's even LESS viable to mine in space and was already a better buy than gold anyway.  So stop even talking about gold in the first place when the GSR is 80:1 and silver is like god himself walking up and handing you a platter of free money by buying it instead.


I agree. Silver is problem to store even on Earth. So dreaming about it in space is far to early. I remember in January I was thinking to turn part of my crypto into silver and when saw how big pile would that be I immediately stooped thinking of silver.

That's the point of economic resets.  The rich are the ones that lose the most.  The middle class and poor already have nothing to lose.  People who are billionaires and such will only retain what they are able to physically control and defend from both the govt and random citizens trying to steal it, or stash in a cave somewhere like some sort of pirate.  So...most of them choose gold for that reason even though it's obvious silver will outperform it.  If you're confident in your ability to either hide or defend what you have from both the govt and people named Tyrone trying to take it, then silver it is.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: STT on August 25, 2018, 10:09:52 AM
I don't know if I made my point clear, but gold mining in space is a real issue if our civilization lasts another 50 years.

Bullshit and you people that keep spamming this just make yourselves look stupid each time you type it.  Mining gold that costs a million dollars an ounce to produce in space is not viable and is absolutely ZERO threat to anyone that purchased gold that was mined on earth.  Since silver weighs more/takes up more space for what they would be trying to bring back, it's even LESS viable to mine in space and was already a better buy than gold anyway.  So stop even talking about gold in the first place when the GSR is 80:1 and silver is like god himself walking up and handing you a platter of free money by buying it instead.

This is a really rare moment I have to agree with the genius of roach  ;D    But yea its quite simple that weight is a giant factor in anything related to space, its not practical and there is cheaper gold on earth available.    Its quite often the case gold can be recovered in low amounts of say less then 1 gram per ton but its not worth their time and energy to sort out the gold, the gold is left in the ground or just thrown away.   They recover quite alot of gold from the major cities in Japan, in the sewers.   I think in space it might be water that is most valuable

I know the great mines of South Africa are related to a giant meteor that cratered there many years ago.  However it was how it altered the earth not the minerals it bought that mattered.   There is vast quantities of gold within the earths molten core and even more in the sea, however in each case they are distributed and really not easily obtainable.    When we get free energy we can get that gold perhaps and go after the stars also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witwatersrand_Basin


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Traxo on August 25, 2018, 04:09:26 PM
Also the elite already own the gold so why would they make it worthless and start over with bitcoin?

Because they want to move to a world central bank that subjugates all the nation-states. Again this increases human cooperation on a global scale while also increasing entropy by disintemediating (i.e. creative destruction of their own control over nation-state central banks) nation-states (which were well suited for the agricultural and industrial ages but ill suited to the Internet knowledge age) so as to enable massive proliferation of separation movements so that we end up with 1000s of tribes again run by a single NWO government. This will come in stages over time, first as a weakening of nation-states and regional trade and currency union blocs (e.g. European Union, Asian Union, NATFA, etc) before the ultimate dissolution of nation-states entirely.

Remember George Gilder explained in that Youtube link somewhere in Shelby's post about the book The Bitcoin Standard (https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/re-anonymint-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-re-goldgoatsnguns-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless-20180817t223047836z), that nature requires a low entropy channel in order to increase entropy overall. This is how cooperation elevates. So we need for example the Internet to not be random, so that we can have more random creations going on on the Internet. Ditto the monetary and governance conduit of human civilization.

So in order to accomplish this while avoiding resistance from the existing entrenched politics in nation-states, they needed a way to disrupt the monetary system of the world with an emergent, bottom-up process that can't be detected as what it will really become. Ergo Bitcoin.

Gold is the old system of nation-state central bank reserves. But gold was pretty much phased out already with US Treasury bonds largely replacing gold in reserves. And now Bitcoin will put the final nail in the coffin for gold.


I agree. Silver is problem to store even on Earth.

thats what gold is for.

A $40k bar is the size of a smart phone.
https://i.imgur.com/lMMNCCW.jpg

And Bitcoin will rise to $million+ so that $40k will only buy you a ham sandwich in the future. Gold is going the way of the Dodo bird. But it will "rise" to maybe $3000 – $5000 one more time before it goes into a precipitous terminal decline in value.

The demise of gold may not be complete until some decades from now, yet even on this cycle of Western civilization collapse before 2033, it’s very likely the government will make it impossible for you to redeem your gold for fiat. Capital controls are coming. And there wont be any blackmarket for it at all and nobody with Bitcoin is going to accept your gold, because when the governments clamp down on gold, nobody will want that shit because you can’t move that bar across any nation-state border or checkpoint.

Whereas, BTC will always be in demand because it can be transported electronically to a favorable jurisdiction.

This is the bottom line and explains that @realr0ach is loony.

Those who doubt that technology reduces the value of metals over time should note the loss of demand for platinum due to (https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/markets-by-sector/precious-metals/platinum-at-10-year-lows/) the rise of electric cars resulting in a plummeting price.





You still havent explained why the NWO would bother buying up all existing bitcoin kicking everyone else off the blockchain when they have access to all this free hash power and could just launch NWO-coin with zero initial outlay for their own uses.

You seem to not understand that the masses will be kicked off because when BTC rises to $million+ then transaction fees in excess of $5000 (perhaps as high as $50,000) per transaction.
TPTB pay the fees to themselves since they are also eventually the miners. TPTB don’t need to buy Bitcoin from the masses, the masses will pay it to them as transaction fees.

This represents inefficiency then, every free capitalist market is driven by efficiency in line with profitable arbitrage.    To have a build up of transaction fees represented failure I think.   I really see this as a problem for BTC overall, that it has a rising cost of processing is not ok.  

However I think the protocol can be developed further and will harness technology to become more able for the same price.

You didn’t coherently assimilate what I told you before which is that Bitcoin is not intended to scale transaction volume.

If Bitcoin’s protocol were able to be modified to increase the block size to allow more transactions, then it would lose the game theory protection that insures it will always be limited to 21 million tokens. That deflationary assurance is Bitcoin’s raison d'être.

The game theory of Bitcoin is designed such that it is impossible to change the protocol. Core attempted to do so, but Satoshi put a poison pill in his design that will cause Core tokens to be donated to the miners in the future. IOW, the Core "Bitcoin" (https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/) is an imposter and is not the Satoshi’s v0.53 real Bitcoin (http://thebitcoin.foundation/). Theymos allowed Gregory Maxwell et al (i.e. Blockstream) to hijack this forum and bitcoin.org. This is ostensibly the real reason Shelby is banned, because he was exposing the truth.

If you go back and click my links, you will find that Shelby (as @anunymint) had explained in great detail why Core’s changes to Bitcoin actually are an altcoin. Satoshi’s v0.53 real Bitcoin (http://thebitcoin.foundation/) is actually still running simultaneously with Core on the same chain, but when the SegWit donations start, then Core will hardfork off away from the real Bitcoin. At that point, everyone who had their BTC stored in SegWit addresses that start with a 3 will donate their real BTC to the miners. They will only keep their Core altcoin tokens. Those who instead store in Satoshi Bitcoin addresses that start with a 1 will keep both the real BTC and get a free airdrop of Core altcoin tokens. I provided the links up-thread that cover all this information in great detail.

The transaction scaling and other features that blockchains can provide will come from altcoins, not Bitcoin. That is why Shelby is working on an altcoin, because he thinks he has figured out how to insure decentralization with proof-of-stake. Nobody else has solved that problem yet. He mentioned his solution in the comments of the following linked blog:

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/scaling-decentralization-security-of-distributed-ledgers-part-4

I do expect BTC to either improve or lose the game to another parallel innovation [...] If you would believe BTC replaces gold in this elite wealth idea, then what would be in the position of silver or copper for the masses in that scenario ?

You conflated separate concerns. The NWO reserve currency will not be the token that the masses use onchain. Remember Gresham’s Law that bad (inferior) money drives good money out-of-circulation— e.g. paper money and debt-based fiat drove precious metals out-of-circulation (even zinc-clad copper dimes drove silver dimes out-of-circulation). The masses will be transacting offchain (e.g. Lightning Networks but this has serious security and soundness issues) or an altcoin. These bad forms of money will not be as good of a store-of-value (i.e. they may be inflationary, have dubious security, be fiats, etc) as Bitcoin but they will scale better.





Don't bother responding to Anonymint about metals.  All he's doing is praying shitcoins win and metals don't go up because he owns shitcoins and no metals.  He's just a disinformation agent at this point.  Anyone with a clue about markets knows metals are currently in one of the largest inverse bubbles in world history and the upcoming metals bull run will be that of legend:

Since most of you guys are JayJuanGee-level economists, let me go ahead and tell you the fair market value of the DOW is 8500-9000.  So expect it to probably drop below that when it does crash before rebounding, assuming the PPT doesn't just implement full blown communism and prints their own number.  The insider info is [...]

Shelby says, “you’ve lost all your marbles.”

Do you really believe that PPT nonsense promulgated by guys with an IQ below 130. Shelby says he communicated with all those famous goldbug personalities in email in the past. All of them, including Peter Schiff. They aren’t very intelligent.

The North American stock markets and dollar are rising because of the strong dollar-short vortex (https://steemit.com/money/@anonymint/countries-vulnerable-to-economic-devastation-soon). It's an international stampede of capital into the safe haven of the dollar as interest rates rise and the economic collapse of Europe accelerates. Also China’s real estate bubble is popping right now and Asia will not bottom until 2020ish. Europe and the West will not bottom for many decades. The USA will also economically collapse after the period of the strong dollar-short vortex has peaked. Shelby has been telling you this for the past years and he has continued to be correct while you continued to make a fool of yourself by being perpetually incorrect, including when you sold BTC at $600 to buy silver at $20.

You are already 40 times poorer than you were in 2016. If you don’t sell that idiotic silver and buy BTC now, you are going to be another 10 times poorer perhaps by 2019 (assuming Bitcoin attains a new ATH then and not after 2020).

Metals are going to go back up, but you are delusional if you believe that nonsense about a silver shortage. Silver will never, never ever have the level of moonshot that will get you back to what you lost already. You should not double-down on that mistake.

Here's an education for readers about your "PPT" (plunge protection team) delusions. The manipulations are only short-term in nature, because they always blow in the face of the banksters.

The Long Term Capital Management scam that involved (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4675898.80#msg43123568) Russia, Yeltsin, the $8 billion from the IMF, HSBC, Hermitage Capital, Clinton Foundation, and Martin Armstrong (he was framed and jailed for 7 years unconstitutionally) blew up in the face the banksters and is tied into the current Mueller investigation (https://blog.jim.com/politics/manafort-trial/#comment-1873493) (c.f. also this blog (https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/corruption/connecting-the-dots-behind-the-curtain/)) of Trump implicating Russia. Here is more on manipulation from Armstrong:

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/comment-from-a-reader-manipulations/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/metals-perpetually-suppressed/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/derivatives-the-real-story/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/markets-by-sector/precious-metals/silver/do-commitment-of-traders-inventories-really-matter/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/are-markets-manipulated-all-the-time/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/armstrongeconomics101/understanding-cycles/market-manipulations-the-greatest-scam-of-all-time/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/gata-gold-manipulations/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/markets-by-sector/precious-metals/gold/do-people-hear-only-what-they-want-to-hear/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/regulators-assist-banks-in-manipulations/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/uncategorized/aluminum-manipulation-leads-to-lawsuits-against-goldman-etc-the-days-of-proprietary-trading-are/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/qa/time-for-a-change-in-reasoning/
https://www.google.com/search?q=site:armstrongeconomics.com+PhiBro+silver






I agree. Silver is problem to store even on Earth.

thats what gold is for.

A $40k bar is the size of a smart phone.

I understand that. And even in my country my government says so since Gold is tax free, but silver is not. But whenever i go i read how gold silver rate is to high as it was in past and should get closer. So people speculate buying solver is better then gold. But when you think how to store and handle it then , ...

Sorry those people who talk about the silver-gold ratio are idiots. They look at a multi-dimensional manifold and conclude that only one dimension is in effect. IOW, they are full of shit and just looking at a 1D projection of reality. Thus their prayers are just praying for the broken stuck clock to be correct twice a day:

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/markets-by-sector/precious-metals/gold/gold-ratios-are-they-really-worth-much/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/markets-by-sector/precious-metals/gold/gold-silver-the-view/
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/markets-by-sector/precious-metals/gold/dowgold-ratio/

Be very wary of following the advice of people with low IQs who don’t even consider the scientific method when they make their proclamations of ignorance couched as some "truth".


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Deubila on August 25, 2018, 10:36:22 PM
Also the elite already own the gold so why would they make it worthless and start over with bitcoin?
I can not think deeply. But still do not understand why China is buying huge amounts of gold across the country? Do you have any reasons? Information?


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: magneto on August 25, 2018, 11:59:31 PM
Gold bugs are literally defined as people who hold gold and view it as the best investment possible, regardless of the state of the gold market. This is something that is extremely irrational, and probably deep rooted. Thus, it's extremely hard for one to just "give up".

Though, I do think that with cryptocurrencies as a viable alternative store of value, especially bitcoin, it would only be a matter of time before gold perma-bulls start converting some of their long term holdings into bitcoin. I've seen many youtubers do so over the past few years, and this trend will continue, but will take time.

It may ultimately not even come down to gold's market cap, but rather, the rise awareness of better alternative store of values like bitcoin that has the exact same properties as gold, that makes these gold bugs shift their investment stance.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: realr0ach on August 26, 2018, 02:55:46 AM
Anonymint, stop linking Armstrong garbage...jesus christ.  You may as well be linking to FBI informants like Hal Turner.  The only purpose of Armstrong and Harry Dent is to try and con everyone into only using the US dollar and no other instrument for trade to prop up the establishment usury scam system.  That is their only reason for existing.  Each link of Armstrong you spam just shows you have no clue what's going on.

I remember like a year ago you were spamming Armstrong bullshit links non-stop where both Armstrong and Harry Dent said gold was going "far below $1000 to the abyss", claiming it was going to $700-800.  It was of course all a US govt sponsored lie to try and get morons to buy US dollars and stocks instead to keep the system afloat.  So you are by definition yourself just a disinformation agent at this point.  No amount of tricks, propaganda, or fraud are going to get people to buy into stock ponzies, overinflated housing, or usury dollar scams.  Great job in your success tricking people into buying centralized, imaginary, valueless shitcoins though!


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Traxo on August 26, 2018, 05:48:44 PM
I have no cogent rebuttal.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: realr0ach on August 27, 2018, 01:10:22 AM
That was the rebuttal.  You are spamming links of the equivalent of an FBI informant pretending it's valid information.  You have to be a complete fool if you can't figure out their disinfo campaign:

https://i.imgur.com/eBI5NOs.png

Do you think Harry Dent actually blows money on these ads to 'warn' you out of the kindness of his heart?  Fuck no.  It's a Jewish money changer, govt run disinfo campaign:

https://i.imgur.com/Y4lB7NF.jpg

Armstrong is just Harry Dent 2.0 attempting to get people to only buy US dollars, stocks, and bonds to prop up the collapsing scam system and prevent them from buying metals, where there is already a technical default on the COMEX as evidenced by all the EFP contracts to London.  

Post-Bretton Woods central bankers had some informal agreement that no single country was allowed to do open market buying of gold to disrupt the debt based scam system, ONLY SELLING of gold.  Putin has completely blown the doors off that agreement as well as China and now the fake paper contracts keep stacking higher while there is no real metal to deliver behind the scenes in quantity until it all blows up.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Traxo on August 27, 2018, 04:06:25 PM
So folks I think that makes it clear the sort of lunatics that wear tinfoil hats.

They may soon be running from their own shadows because they seem to associate any random things without actually doing any significantly detailed research on the random associations that just pop into their psychosis.
Seriously you might want to see a psychiatrist before you end up destitute, because you are slipping away from reality.

Remember @realr0ach sold BTC at $600 to buy silver at $20 in October 2016 when Shelby and others publicly urged him not to do so (https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/re-heavyd-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-bitcoin-to-usd15k-in-march-usd8-5k-by-june-then-usd30-k-by-q1-2019-20180819t141422240z). (c.f. near the bottom of linked Steemit comment for the evidence)

Also clearly our resident loon is cherry picking and misrepresenting the facts about Martin Armstrong. Readers can dig into the links provided to clearly see that @realr0ach has "lost all his marbles".

P.S. The Jews have a Nash equilibrium on defection (https://blog.jim.com/politics/and-another-one-bites-the-dust/#comment-1877258) against those not in their own tribe. Europeans don't have this, so they are easy prey to defection amongst themselves.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: realr0ach on August 27, 2018, 04:42:40 PM
Here comes Anonymint again pretending he knows anything about what's going on.  It's 100% fact Harry Dent is a US govt asset and anyone that can read between the lines with his disinfo campaign of ads above can tell the US govt is trying to trick you into buying imaginary, valueless shitcoins instead of metals.  Why?:

Because Fort Knox and the US govt DOES NOT HAVE 8000 tons of gold.  Most of it is gone.  The debt based, usury fiats are about to implode and instead of the system coming down and them being forced to re-monetize metals again - then all being publicly hanged after it's discovered the gold is gone - they're trying to kill two birds with one stone and do a bait and switch to a digital-only, cashless society slave system to gain even more control over you than they already had.  

Their backup plan should people reject the new world order digital scam tokens is to re-monetize the giant hoard of silver that JP Morgan has accumulated as an agent of the US govt because the gold is gone and the coinage act of 1792 already defines a US dollar as 371 grains of silver.

And when all else fails and Anonymint starts losing an argument, he cut and pastes the same lie over and over pretending he has any idea of when I have bought and sold bitcoins.  I said in perfectly clear English numerous times, I sold 1/2 of my shitcoins at $800.  It does not say all.  And i have absolutely nothing to prove to you.  But it's pretty lame seeing your constant female-like, passive aggressive behavior when what you cut and paste over and over again any time you're losing an argument isn't even true.  I even posted a receipt in the dumb Armstrong thread of me converting shitcoins into silver in 2017, yet you still keep spamming this nonsense over and over.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: cellard on August 27, 2018, 06:31:28 PM
Gold bugs are literally defined as people who hold gold and view it as the best investment possible, regardless of the state of the gold market. This is something that is extremely irrational, and probably deep rooted. Thus, it's extremely hard for one to just "give up".

Though, I do think that with cryptocurrencies as a viable alternative store of value, especially bitcoin, it would only be a matter of time before gold perma-bulls start converting some of their long term holdings into bitcoin. I've seen many youtubers do so over the past few years, and this trend will continue, but will take time.

It may ultimately not even come down to gold's market cap, but rather, the rise awareness of better alternative store of values like bitcoin that has the exact same properties as gold, that makes these gold bugs shift their investment stance.

I have seen goldbugs talking about gold in terms of "god's money". I understand that gold has an impressive network effect that lasts for what, thousands of years? but they often forget how volatile it was in the past. Isn't this familiar:

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HB9aOGn.png

And what about this:

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HB9cucg.jpg

Please stop denying gold isn't any less manipulated than Bitcoin, and start accepting the fact that Bitcoin has obvious positive points: They cannot confiscate it when trying to cross borders, they cannot show up in your house with radars and inspect your garden or whatever trying to find buried gold and so on. The money is also harder due the limited and public, predictable supply. Nobody has numbers of what gold's supply is, which becomes yet another factor to manipulate which they can't do with BTC.

There are reasons to own both Bitcoin and gold but not seeing Bitcoin beats gold in many departments is being yet another deluded goldbug.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: 1Referee on August 27, 2018, 08:54:19 PM
There are reasons to own both Bitcoin and gold but not seeing Bitcoin beats gold in many departments is being yet another deluded goldbug.

It's in people's nature to hardcore shill that what they own a lot of. In all honesty, we are doing the same with Bitcoin more often than not, and that while we haven't had all that much history of actual use and utility to fall back on. It's mostly all speculative hype that we have to dig through and as long as we haven't done that to reach the utility phase, people will not give Bitcoin a fair chance.

On the other hand, we should be glad that not everyone sees Bitcoin the way we see it, otherwise we by now would hover over $100,000 already.

As stated before, breaching $1 trillion is a very important psychological milestone. Even when some goldbugs don't want to acknowledge Bitcoin's power publicly (remember, there are always people telling you that you're wrong even when you are 100% right), they at least know that Bitcoin will likely eat into Gold's market share even further. They'll sleep a whole lot less comfortable knowing that.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: realr0ach on August 28, 2018, 02:27:47 AM
It's mostly all speculative hype that we have to dig through and as long as we haven't done that to reach the utility phase, people will not give Bitcoin a fair chance.

What utility?  If you hoard all the bitcoins in the entire world, there's no way possible for you to extort me by forcing me to buy into your artificial scarcity scam.  I can just ignore you like you don't even exist, or create a new random shitcoin with a distribution that favors me instead of you.  This is called no valid Schelling point.  

However, if I hoard all above ground silver in the world, people actually need it, and I can just set my own price and demand it from you and force you to pay me.  Any type of economic activity you're doing can be completely ignored by everyone else on the planet, so you're like the pig that built his house out of straw by pretending an artificial scarcity scam with no real world use is a store of value.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: realr0ach on August 28, 2018, 03:16:32 AM
For anyone expecting a dollar short squeeze that Anonymint is always plagiarizing Armstrong's claim about, it damn sure ain't happening right now:

Commercial banks are 40:1 short the US dollar right now, indicating they are front running lots of dollar decline.  In the past, most bitcoin pumps in relation to fiats occurred with yuan decline and I don't recall any real bitcoin movements based on dollar decline.  It seems like if yuan declines, lots of China money flows into bitcoin, which is then sent out of China and into the dollar or Vancouver housing or something.  If dollar declines, the flow into bitcoin for capital flight does not occur.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Traxo on August 28, 2018, 07:43:09 PM
And what about this:

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HB9cucg.jpg

Please stop denying gold isn't any less manipulated than Bitcoin

Tinfoil hat, aliasing error, delusional nonsense. The peak and decline in gold began because of the start of the strong dollar-short vortex (https://steemit.com/money/@anonymint/countries-vulnerable-to-economic-devastation-soon) and the rise of the DJIA on its way to 26000 (and ultimately 40,000) as Armstrong correctly predicted back in 2011 and 2012 (despite @realr0ach's lies and cherry picking blogs out-of-context). It was a simple international capital flows phenomenon. There was and is no long-term manipulation of the gold price. You guys don't seem to understand anything about the entropy.

Remember it was @realr0ach stating back in 2016 that Armstrong was going to be incorrect about a rising DJIA and strong dollar. Well he ate his words and lost 4000% of this relative value by selling BTC for silver in October 2016. And now he is going to double-down on that mistake and lose another 1000%, to bring himself into the destitute class of -40,000% relative loses over a span of 5 years or so.

The following exponential trend of Bitcoin is undeniable because it is being adopted as the NWO international reserve currency:

https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever (see chart on the linked page)

James A. Donald (aka "Jim", first person to communicate with Satoshi on the mailing list (https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09959.html) where Bitcoin was first announced) recently explained this adoption pattern well:

For a long time the big demand for crypto currency has been wealthy Chinese evading currency controls, but with the recent crackdown on hate speech, we are seeing massive American and European demand, which directly resulted in the recent spike in crypto currency values.

Another substantial source of demand for crypto currency, which has been around since the beginning, is buying steroids and suchlike over the internet, but the really huge move in crypto currency demand came during the recent crackdown on political activists.





they at least know that Bitcoin will likely eat into Gold's market share even further. They'll sleep a whole lot less comfortable knowing that.

Did anyone actually click the linked chart in the quote below?

https://i.imgur.com/OS7nuIu.gif

Because the chart linked (http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2005/02/the_economists_.html) below shows that physical metals have been declining in relative value inexorably. Gold is declining in relative value while Bitcoin is rising. Only someone without a brain stem would buy gold at this point. It’s being rapidly phased out by technological advance.


I think its arrogant to believe we have altered a trend that has been in existence that long.

It's important to distinguish … ego from facts (http://www.coolpage.com/commentary/economic/shelby/Demise%20of%20Finance,%20Rise%20of%20Knowledge.html#EconomyofKnowledge) (the link explains that Iron was a precious metal and money 323 B.C.). So not only is the trend of gold just a small fraction of recorded civilization, but there is a chart of an inexorable trend of decline in value for physical things at that link.

… technology really has inexorably made physical things less and less valuable. And the Internet and the computer are accelerating that trend to the extent that gold is losing its function as money. Paper money was the first invention that relegated gold to second tier status, and now Bitcoin will replace the second tier as well. The fat lady is about to sing on gold.

See the link in the above quote for a historical chart (cited from the Economist magazine) of the plummeting value of commodities in general over the past two millennia. Iron used be a precious metal in 323 B.C. The value of platinum recently fell off a cliff because electric cars don't need catalytic converters (which normally contain platinum). And the PUBLIC CONFIDENCE in cryptocurrency is rising exponentially (see the above Steemit linked chart (https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever)) while plummeting for gold as explained up-thread.



What utility?

You can ask the same question about gold. Yet it was already explained to you up-thread that what makes something money is PUBLIC CONFIDENCE that it is money.

You can revisit the education that you ignored up-thread for all the details.

If you hoard all the bitcoins in the entire world, there's no way possible for you to extort me by forcing me to buy into your artificial scarcity scam.

And you sit on your gold in your basement while your stacks of gold and silver decline in relative value to the value of a ham sandwich and we don't care. Enjoy your oblivion.

Nobody wants your precious metals anymore. You can't seem to comprehend such a simple principle. This was already explained in great detail up-thread. You rely on liquid market makers that can be regulated by the government. The common man will not accept your trinkets in payment for goods and services.

Although the common man will end up being kicked offchain from Bitcoin eventually (2024+) by the $5000+ transaction fees (as price of BTC and demand for Bitcoin transactions increase), he will increasingly accept cryptocurrency in general. And Bitcoin is the reserve currency of this brave new world.

However, if I hoard all above ground silver in the world, people actually need it

No we don't. We can mine more of it. And besides technology makes that shit less and less valuable.

For example, soon we will have bots that can bore with A.I. directly on the ore veins and your precious metals are going to plummet in value.

Also see how electric cars have destroyed the demand for platinum, which I cited up-thread.

Of course the following is bad news for goldbugs because the more industrial demand the less monetary are the precious metals, as the recent plunge in platinum has exemplified:

https://www.materialstoday.com/metals-alloys/news/new-platinumgold-alloy-most-wearresistant/

For anyone expecting a dollar short squeeze that Anonymint is always plagiarizing Armstrong's claim about, it damn sure ain't happening right now:

Commercial banks are 40:1 short the US dollar right now, indicating they are front running lots of dollar decline.  In the past, most bitcoin pumps in relation to fiats occurred with yuan decline and I don't recall any real bitcoin movements based on dollar decline.  It seems like if yuan declines, lots of China money flows into bitcoin, which is then sent out of China and into the dollar or Vancouver housing or something.  If dollar declines, the flow into bitcoin for capital flight does not occur.

They are being phased out also by this brave new NWO. They are also thus implicitly short Bitcoin, which exemplifies their decadence.





And to those who continue to be stuck on the power and Internet grid reliability non-issue, read this explanation of your myopia (https://blog.jim.com/politics/and-another-one-bites-the-dust/#comment-1877062).




Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: cellard on August 29, 2018, 11:20:49 PM
And what about this:

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HB9cucg.jpg

Please stop denying gold isn't any less manipulated than Bitcoin

Tinfoil hat, aliasing error, delusional nonsense. The peak and decline in gold began because of the start of the strong dollar-short vortex (https://steemit.com/money/@anonymint/countries-vulnerable-to-economic-devastation-soon) and the rise of the DJIA on its way to 26000 (and ultimately 40,000) as Armstrong correctly predicted back in 2011 and 2012 (despite @realr0ach's lies and cherry picking blogs out-of-context). It was a simple international capital flows phenomenon. There was and is no long-term manipulation of the gold price. You guys don't seem to understand anything about the entropy.

Remember it was @realr0ach stating back in 2016 that Armstrong was going to be incorrect about a rising DJIA and strong dollar. Well he ate his words and lost 4000% of this relative value by selling BTC for silver in October 2016. And now he is going to double-down on that mistake and lose another 1000%, to bring himself into the destitute class of -40,000% relative loses over a span of 5 years or so.

The following exponential trend of Bitcoin is undeniable because it is being adopted as the NWO international reserve currency:

https://steemit.com/trading/@anonymint/most-important-bitcoin-chart-ever (see chart on the linked page)

James A. Donald (aka "Jim", first person to communicate with Satoshi on the mailing list (https://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg09959.html) where Bitcoin was first announced) recently explained this adoption pattern well:

For a long time the big demand for crypto currency has been wealthy Chinese evading currency controls, but with the recent crackdown on hate speech, we are seeing massive American and European demand, which directly resulted in the recent spike in crypto currency values.

Another substantial source of demand for crypto currency, which has been around since the beginning, is buying steroids and suchlike over the internet, but the really huge move in crypto currency demand came during the recent crackdown on political activists.






My point was that there are way too many coincidences out there when it comes to futures and charts beginning a decline from all time highs. See:

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/0*2YWDymtN8w_8NBid.JPG

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/0*hNicphujslwt9vpO.JPG

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/0*P1FTOSm_AU297a0O.JPG

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/0*avq93UqSR0mwgggj.JPG

 ::)

The fundamental analysis of anonymint (dollar short vortex, NWO stuff, armstrong stuff and so on..) is not incompatible with the possibility of they using futures to manipulate assets. At the end of the day we are all theorizing here with whatever info we have, because I doubt any of us has any insider info. So we all on a tinfoil hat party trying to make the best of what info do we have at reach.

At the end of the day we conclude that Bitcoin is the long term winner anyway.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: STT on August 30, 2018, 12:23:35 AM
Quote
Please stop denying gold isn't any less manipulated than Bitcoin

Gold is naturally distributed over millions of years.   How could it be manipulated in its source when its a purely natural element.    Do the figures reported year by year get a human bias of course but the major point to gold is that its not really under the control of anyone.

Bitcoin has a hard time arguing with that as its obviously evolved out of direct human engineering.  However its maturing and has come a long way and is the most distributed of all the crypto currencies as I understand it.   I'd still think gold is far more a natural market then Bitcoin.

Obviously I mean the actual presentation and clearance of the resource in both cases.   No point arguing about virtual certificates for Gold or BTC.    The market price for gold does not match up, I agree with that.  China is the worlds largest producer, it does not export gold and it does not report properly so we dont have a price available in FIAT thats accurate for gold probably ditto USD is a mess.
  Until gold is in every day exchange for goods into billions as a currency I think its mostly estimated.    Obviously BTC price is largely decided by speculation more then trade.   The actual gold resource itself in the ground is fairly evenly distributed though


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: cellard on August 30, 2018, 01:46:49 PM
Quote
Please stop denying gold isn't any less manipulated than Bitcoin

Gold is naturally distributed over millions of years.   How could it be manipulated in its source when its a purely natural element.    Do the figures reported year by year get a human bias of course but the major point to gold is that its not really under the control of anyone.

Bitcoin has a hard time arguing with that as its obviously evolved out of direct human engineering.  However its maturing and has come a long way and is the most distributed of all the crypto currencies as I understand it.   I'd still think gold is far more a natural market then Bitcoin.

Obviously I mean the actual presentation and clearance of the resource in both cases.   No point arguing about virtual certificates for Gold or BTC.    The market price for gold does not match up, I agree with that.  China is the worlds largest producer, it does not export gold and it does not report properly so we dont have a price available in FIAT thats accurate for gold probably ditto USD is a mess.
  Until gold is in every day exchange for goods into billions as a currency I think its mostly estimated.    Obviously BTC price is largely decided by speculation more then trade.   The actual gold resource itself in the ground is fairly evenly distributed though

"The actual gold resource itself in the ground is fairly evenly distributed though"

How do you know this? do you have any data on the "initial gold distribution" before the gold rush craze began? I wonder how a map like that would look like before and after.

I seriously doubt it happened to be evenly distributed. Even if it was, you still needed the tools to mine it. So the guy that already had power also known as resources, would have trucks, big drills and so on, so he would quickly establish a monopoly on the local goldmines. The guy that didn't have nothing but their hands and perhaps a hammer and a shovel tops couldn't compete.

Of course you can't argue that gold's "settings" are more natural than bitcoin (someone had to manually input the initial settings of bitcoin after all), but at the end of the day you have to be pragmatic, and bitcoin seems way more useful than gold for reasons already explained in previous posts.

Bitcoin is also the only coin that grew organically, without get rich quick expectations of altcoins.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Traxo on August 30, 2018, 04:39:41 PM
Tinfoil hat, aliasing error, delusional nonsense.

My point was that there are way too many coincidences out there when it comes to futures and charts beginning a decline from all time highs.

There you go with that aliasing error. You imagine your shadow is yourself. Your stuck clock is correct twice a day and you imagine that it is correct all day.

Simple correlation as I already told you. That was the start of the strong dollar-short vortex and the peak of China's resource consumption. So all the commodity markets have been hit hard. Which exemplifies gold is more like a commodity now and less like a monetary reserve. The international capital (follows each other like ducks) moved on to the next wave which was into U.S. dollar and U.S. stocks. Which have been rising ever since.

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/markets-by-sector/stock-indicies/dow-jones/the-us-share-market-reality-exposed/


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Omega Weapon on August 31, 2018, 03:07:10 AM
I was wondering, what does it take for a hardcore goldbug like Peter Schiff, or our very own r0ach, to admit that they fucked up big time holding gold instead of Bitcoin?

Currently gold is around 7 $trillion marketcap, I haven't paid attention to gold to get the exact value but last year it was around that. Bitcoin is around 100 $billion as of today.

At what point will some traditional goldbugs publicly accept that they should have at least, diversified some of their gold into Bitcoin? I have added a poll with 5 options, the most conservative one is when BTC reaches 1 $trillion, because I don't expect any of them to admit they were wrong any time sooner than that.

The poll never expires.
I do not see why they would need to admit they are wrong, it is going to be impossible for gold to be as profitable as bitcoin, that is true, since the market cap of bitcoin is way lower, but I think gold is also going to be extremely profitable once the economic system becomes a lot more unstable and crashes, so even if they do not get the same profits as us, gold will be in my opinion a great investment in the next decades as well.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: realr0ach on September 01, 2018, 05:22:32 AM
Please stop denying gold isn't any less manipulated than Bitcoin

Every market in the world is manipulated by the ESF in order to try and prop up the dollar + bond market + stocks.  The only real disparity here is that bitcoin has obviously been intentionally propped up by the fraudulent exchange Bitfinex, their tethers, and other scams, while silver and gold are suppressed 24 hours a day by entities like the Comex.  Anonymint can lie all he wants, but he knows it's a lie when he tries to pretend shitcoins are not an artificially propped up bubble, and metals are an inverse bubble.  The first step of trading 101 is do not buy an artifically propped up bubble.

Same thing with other shitcoins on the micro-scale.  Goldman Sachs bought most of the Ethereum premine, sent their illiquid asset to Poloniex, then leveraged it higher.  It was a toxic waste, illiquid asset when the price was low.  Now it's a higher price pile of toxic waste.  The same thing has been done with bitcoin using ScamFinex to artificially rig the price upwards.  

In the GATA archives for metals, it was admitted by the govt that they try to introduce volatility into the metals market using the ESF in order to make them look like a less stable store of value so they can pretend the dollar is somehow more stable.  The ESF itself might even be running the bitcoin pump and dumps doing the same thing here.  Create bubbles then catastrophic collapses over and over ad infinity...in everything...then you pretend the dollar is stable.  Meanwhile, they literally hand out a blueprint of when and where the pump and dumps will occur to a select few oligarchs to make sure they can continuously stay in power and never lose a bet.


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: R9s on September 01, 2018, 07:30:38 AM
I voted for more than $7 trillion in market capitalization (higher than the market value of any gold) because I think the price of gold coins has reached its limit!


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: Traxo on September 06, 2018, 02:40:34 PM
Anonymint can lie all he wants, but he knows it's a lie when he tries to pretend shitcoins are not an artificially propped up bubble, and metals are an inverse bubble.  The first step of trading 101 is do not buy an artifically propped up bubble.

He agrees with you that you will be correct (https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/re-anonymint-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-re-goldgoatsnguns-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-bitcoin-rises-because-land-is-becoming-worthless-20180905t155947492z) at least after a possible new ATH in 2019, and Bitcoin will probably not bottom until 2021. But long-term he thinks you are confusing adoption and a speculative bubble. Bitcoin has both.


Also he thought you might appreciate this about the Zionists (not all Jews):

https://steemit.com/politics/@anonymint/succinct-absolute-truth-about-9-11-and-las-vegas-massacre


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: STT on September 07, 2018, 12:46:18 AM
I voted for more than $7 trillion in market capitalization (higher than the market value of any gold) because I think the price of gold coins has reached its limit!

If we're measuring in US dollars then there is no upper limit as there is 20 trillion of debt to unwind at the same time as a trade deficit and fiscal deficit.   Thats going to mean alot of new dollars arriving on the streets over the following decades.  At best it will be spread out but they cant not repay that debt, without a surplus its evitable the price of everything rises considerably.

I doubt BTC or gold rises alone, other prices will also rise but the point to either is they also become viable replacements for the business done in trade while holding that value.   Hence the rise is greater then just purely inverse to dollar decline

Quote
"The actual gold resource itself in the ground is fairly evenly distributed though"

How do you know this? do you have any data on the "initial gold distribution" before the gold rush craze began? I wonder how a map like that would look like before and after.

The gold rush will have disturbed gold on the surface mainly but overall I think surveys on the geological nature and distribution to gold across the globe have been done.   If I see a source I will post it.  
Quote
South Africa accounts for almost 90% of global platinum reserves.
SA is linked to platinum in having a large enough resource that it would not be feasible to have this metal as a monetary base globally.   I'm not sure why one precious metal has a concentration in one country and the other is found in almost every country.    I think its linked to volcanic flow and tectonic plates but I havent read anything on this recently and definitely not an expert but afaik its not in dispute generally.

We need a geologist on this thread just like a developer in crypto protocols might have better insight to future dynamics

https://mobile.apanews.net/index.php/en/news/safrica-russia-seek-ways-to-preserve-platinum-value

https://i.imgur.com/mn47828.png

https://www.statista.com/statistics/273624/platinum-metal-reserves-by-country/


Title: Re: When do goldbugs give up?
Post by: cellard on September 08, 2018, 04:36:23 PM
Please stop denying gold isn't any less manipulated than Bitcoin

Every market in the world is manipulated by the ESF in order to try and prop up the dollar + bond market + stocks.  The only real disparity here is that bitcoin has obviously been intentionally propped up by the fraudulent exchange Bitfinex, their tethers, and other scams, while silver and gold are suppressed 24 hours a day by entities like the Comex.  Anonymint can lie all he wants, but he knows it's a lie when he tries to pretend shitcoins are not an artificially propped up bubble, and metals are an inverse bubble.  The first step of trading 101 is do not buy an artifically propped up bubble.

Same thing with other shitcoins on the micro-scale.  Goldman Sachs bought most of the Ethereum premine, sent their illiquid asset to Poloniex, then leveraged it higher.  It was a toxic waste, illiquid asset when the price was low.  Now it's a higher price pile of toxic waste.  The same thing has been done with bitcoin using ScamFinex to artificially rig the price upwards.  

In the GATA archives for metals, it was admitted by the govt that they try to introduce volatility into the metals market using the ESF in order to make them look like a less stable store of value so they can pretend the dollar is somehow more stable.  The ESF itself might even be running the bitcoin pump and dumps doing the same thing here.  Create bubbles then catastrophic collapses over and over ad infinity...in everything...then you pretend the dollar is stable.  Meanwhile, they literally hand out a blueprint of when and where the pump and dumps will occur to a select few oligarchs to make sure they can continuously stay in power and never lose a bet.

It depends on what you believe the outcome of the USD will be. Do you think they can keep doing this forever, and keep the USD alive and strong in zombie mode? will people keep accepting USD no matter what thus making it a useful tool to demoralize potential buyers of hard money? (bitcoin or gold)

If yes, then both bitcoin and gold are fucked, because no matter what their properties are, they can keep manipulating the price forever.

If no, then both bitcoin and gold will win, because they are hard money, and hard money always win in the long term. What is being discussed here at least by me is the fact that bitcoin is a lot more convenient than cumbersome gold. You can't basically move anywhere with your gold, for this reason alone, bitcoin wins.