Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: AltcoinAuthority on March 04, 2014, 10:05:08 PM



Title: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: AltcoinAuthority on March 04, 2014, 10:05:08 PM
Money and its associated systems of commerce are the most influential and pervasive man-made influences on the human race today. As the paradigm we use to associate value with something and transfer that value amongst us, currency informs us in many ways both obvious and subtle. Currencies drive societies and are responsible for enabling mankind to transact in such a way that we can all function together.

Noble, you would say, and in its purest form, few things are nobler. However, there has been a fundamental flaw in our systems of commerce since inception – the privileged few exercising control over the most basic needs of the rest of us.

You can finish reading this editorial here: http://altcoinauthority.com/2014/03/the-critical-importance-of-cryptocurrencies/


Please contribute to this discussion, we're all in this together.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Mark™ on March 05, 2014, 08:11:28 AM
I'm guessing from your above post, cryptocurrency will overule this exercising control since it's decentralized and would allow everyone to fulfill their own basic needs.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: samysamy1 on March 06, 2014, 03:26:04 AM
This is the exact reason reason why people are jumping on the cryptocoin wagon, but some will be overtaken by greed.
The current fiat system is on purpose designed to enslave people through interest and at the end of it will fall so that many people loose their material life.
Interest is forbidden by God/Allah since it is an injustice system, and so are illegal collected taxes - I mean they are both from the same source (the Illuminati of whatever name you wanna give them).
Poor people are taken advantage of and the Jewish bankers and governments get richer and enjoy seeing people fail miserably.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: jonald_fyookball on March 06, 2014, 04:51:00 AM
It's nothing short of epochal shift that's taking place.  And it can't be stopped.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Ix on March 06, 2014, 05:16:39 AM
Noble, you would say, and in its purest form, few things are nobler. However, there has been a fundamental flaw in our systems of commerce since inception – the early adopters exercising control over the most basic needs of the rest of us.

Edited for fun. :P It's nice to see articles that are not bitcoin or bitcoin-like biased that talk about the power of cryptocurrency. I was expecting it but was pleasantly surprised. :)


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: kauppalahti on March 17, 2014, 07:38:38 PM
Personally i am more and more eaxsious t see the future cause
you can open your eyes insted keeping them closed!


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: cakir on March 17, 2014, 07:48:38 PM
F*ck the System, use Cryptocurrency!

"Legal Money Systems" are manipulated by governments, imf etc and the winners were always them. But Now Cryptocurrency is always ruled by people directly and the winners are us!


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: TTM on March 17, 2014, 08:00:04 PM
Crypto cannot replace fiat in foreseeable future, currently it's just payment method, not a currency. We buy/sell an item using BTC but we think about the equivalent price in fiat.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: AnonyMint on March 17, 2014, 08:12:01 PM
The linked blog article is excellent except for the last part where it talks about how to get involved.

Politics (the power vacuum that rewards the elite) are not beaten with more politics.

The single most important action you must do is choose the correct design for your crypto-currency, as I explained at the following short post:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=518453.msg5749208#msg5749208

All the promotion and hoopla is meaningless if your design is broken in a way that will give it all back to the power vacuum. And Bitcoin is so broken.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: cryptoanarchist on March 17, 2014, 08:36:00 PM
Crypto cannot replace fiat in foreseeable future, currently it's just payment method, not a currency. We buy/sell an item using BTC but we think about the equivalent price in fiat.

Only because many resources are held by the same people that run the fiat system and used it to get those resources. Once the price of crypto goes up another ten-fold, the greed factor will kick in for more retailers - its a bottom up process.

I see Costco as the next BIG domino to fall. Once that happens, you can buy FOOD with Bitcoin. Then, only utilities will be left. These are owned exclusively by the masonic power structure and will absolutely refuse to accept bitcoin until the bitter end. Before that happens, and after food is available for bitcoin, I think you will see dramatic reductions in government revenue as people hide money from the IRS in various blockchains. Government freebies will be reduced, while while the gov prints even more money to keep funding to the services that keep their power (military and police). This inflation will draw even more to cryptocoins, and the cycle will go faster and faster. Eventually, many police and military will quit and join private services to get paid in crypto, and then you can kiss government goodbye forever.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: IrishFutbol on March 17, 2014, 08:50:12 PM
A central authority like the Federal Reserve can also stabilize prices, limit inflation, and when done right, avoid a recession/depression.  A completely unregulated currency can't do any of this.  The Fed and the other central banks are powerful entities, but that doesn't make them bad.

The other key point that you're missing is that you seem to be wrongfully assuming that BitCoin will be free from manipulation.  Just as the Fed can affect the value of a dollar by adjusting the supply of the dollar, they could easily do the same with BTC.  If they want to push the price up, they issue BTC denominated bonds.  They do the opposite if they want to push the price down.  Hell, one recession/depression and the public will be clamoring for market regulation.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: cryptoanarchist on March 17, 2014, 10:48:58 PM
A central authority like the Federal Reserve can also stabilize prices, limit inflation, and when done right, avoid a recession/depression.  A completely unregulated currency can't do any of this.  The Fed and the other central banks are powerful entities, but that doesn't make them bad.

All the things you listed that the Fed do are indeed BAD for the economy by interfering with natural market forces.

The other key point that you're missing is that you seem to be wrongfully assuming that BitCoin will be free from manipulation.  Just as the Fed can affect the value of a dollar by adjusting the supply of the dollar, they could easily do the same with BTC.  If they want to push the price up, they issue BTC denominated bonds.  They do the opposite if they want to push the price down.  Hell, one recession/depression and the public will be clamoring for market regulation.

Um, no. The Fed can't manipulate bitcoin. "Issue bitcoin denominated bonds"?!? Dude, seriously, do some reading about how bitcoin works.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: AltcoinAuthority on March 21, 2014, 09:37:50 PM
Looking for more opinions on this matter :)


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Siegfried on March 22, 2014, 01:38:44 AM
Crypto cannot replace fiat in foreseeable future, currently it's just payment method, not a currency. We buy/sell an item using BTC but we think about the equivalent price in fiat.

Only because many resources are held by the same people that run the fiat system and used it to get those resources. Once the price of crypto goes up another ten-fold, the greed factor will kick in for more retailers - its a bottom up process.

I see Costco as the next BIG domino to fall. Once that happens, you can buy FOOD with Bitcoin. Then, only utilities will be left. These are owned exclusively by the masonic power structure and will absolutely refuse to accept bitcoin until the bitter end. Before that happens, and after food is available for bitcoin, I think you will see dramatic reductions in government revenue as people hide money from the IRS in various blockchains. Government freebies will be reduced, while while the gov prints even more money to keep funding to the services that keep their power (military and police). This inflation will draw even more to cryptocoins, and the cycle will go faster and faster. Eventually, many police and military will quit and join private services to get paid in crypto, and then you can kiss government goodbye forever.

I read a few days ago that a Dutch energy company is starting to accept Bitcoin.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Beliathon on March 22, 2014, 02:35:24 AM
This is the exact reason reason why people are jumping on the cryptocoin wagon, but some will be overtaken by greed.
The current fiat system is on purpose designed to enslave people through interest and at the end of it will fall so that many people loose their material life.
Interest is forbidden by God/Allah since it is an injustice system, and so are illegal collected taxes - I mean they are both from the same source (the Illuminati of whatever name you wanna give them).
Poor people are taken advantage of and the [antisemitism redacted] bankers and governments get richer and enjoy seeing people fail miserably.
Quoted for truth.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: dowsey14 on March 22, 2014, 06:03:45 AM
The single most important action you must do is choose the correct design for your crypto-currency, as I explained at the following short post:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=518453.msg5749208#msg5749208

All the promotion and hoopla is meaningless if your design is broken in a way that will give it all back to the power vacuum. And Bitcoin is so broken.

You are correct, it depends on the specific design. But there are many competing designs.

But Bitcoin is far from broken. It just works. It has it's flaws, but to me they are not that obtrusive. The system just works beautifully...BUT one must understand HOW it works, or they risk losing their funds. A perfect example of this is wallet maintenance and backups. People think certain wallet backups are still good but in fact are useless. People load up a paper wallet, spend a few coins, then just cross off say "50 BTC" and replace it with "45 BTC" and put the paper wallet away, forgetting about the wallet they've created on their PC or their web based wallet...and ended up with a rude shock after discovering later that they've lost the remainder of the balance on their paper wallet because they didn't understand change addresses.

The design that interests me the most is the design of Quarkcoin. Some call it a scam, but I beg to differ. 5/6ths of the coins that will be minted over the next 50 years were minted in a 6 month period. This gives it a huge stability advantage to those who are new to the cryptocurrency market. Most other cryptos are still being mined with an eventual finite supply.

To me a finite supply will eventually cause the Zilger-Hubermann loss-pattern-diffusion effect whereby the critical mass will reach its threshold much sooner than expected, and then subsequently collapse. Think the South Sea bubble. People assign Bitcoin value, so therefore it has value. But if it becomes virtually impossible to obtain new coins after a certain time frame passes, then it may well become useless. With Bitcoin and it's very finite supply of probably LESS than 20M coins (we can claim that more than 1M coins were destroyed through HDD failures, newbies who didn't understand change addresses, forgotten passphrases to encrypted wallets, lost wallet files, backup mistakes, formatted hard drives with forgotten wallets, or indeed anything that results in irrevocable loss of private keys, you could even add lost/damaged paper wallets to this list). A loss of 1M coins, you can almost bank on that. I'd be willing to bet everything I have that 1 million bitcoins were irrevocably lost by mistakes ranging from the common and simple to the rare and complex.

Bitcoin is definitely flawed. I make no bones about it. But so is virtually every one of the other cryptocurrencies...even Quarkcoin, which is my favourite crypto, is flawed in some way...but it depends on whether those flaws will affect the long-term appreciation and adoption into the mainstream usage over time.

To me, the ultimate cryptocurrency will have every feature required of a cryptocurrency for every individual ranging from the dumbest to the smartest - that is, all features FULLY open source, password protection options, wallet encryption options, backup options, paper wallet and key print out options, HD deterministic wallets that only require ONE master private key to secure and maintain, mining features fully built in that are fully optional to any user, and with programmable access to direct banking features, such as exchanges and peer-to-peer financial systems, such as p2p banks and of course bitcoin, but where one can sell or purchase this cryptocurrency with full fiat exchange.

If one could achieve this in a cryptocurrency, Bitcoin would be in an uphill battle against this new cryptocurrency. That's the truth and for bitcoiners it might be terrifying, but those are the facts. C'est la vie. I'm sure bitcoiners could produce something such as what I've described above. And in fact, with Armory and Electrum, they've done just that to a certain extent, but we still have a long way to go before we could say that Bitcoin is a completely finished product. It's still a ways to go, but I am certain we will get there, but it will be a slow process, with many hurdles to cross, and of course this will happen over time.



Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: LightRider on March 22, 2014, 09:40:13 AM
Bitcoin is the beginning of the end of money.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5373.0


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: dbwilkins on March 22, 2014, 02:03:12 PM
I cannot agree that money are the most influential and pervasive man-made influences on the human race today.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: franky1 on March 22, 2014, 02:12:26 PM
1 not having to fill in paperwork, have credit checks and supply identification, purely for third parties to hold your wealth
2 not having to use these same third parties to move your wealth and be told that there are limits on how much or how often you can do it.
3 bitcoin trading between people cannot be stopped by governments. (unlike mastercard in russia)
4 anything you can do with FIAT (pay labour, buy products, invest) can be done with bitcoin. without the limitations of points 1,2&3 above.
5 bitcoin is rare, but at the same time weightless, so it is better then gold in many ways for transactions(excluding manufacturing)


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: franky1 on March 22, 2014, 02:13:33 PM
I cannot agree that money are the most influential and pervasive man-made influences on the human race today.

sex/procreation is the ultimate drive of humans. money comes just after that


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: jonald_fyookball on March 23, 2014, 03:11:53 AM
Eventually, many police and military will quit and join private services to get paid in crypto, and then you can kiss government goodbye forever.

Government is needed in some form to protect individual rights ( The only valid purpose of government)

Otherwise you will have anarchy.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: cryptoanarchist on March 23, 2014, 05:22:24 AM
Eventually, many police and military will quit and join private services to get paid in crypto, and then you can kiss government goodbye forever.

Government is needed in some form to protect individual rights ( The only valid purpose of government)

Otherwise you will have anarchy.

Governments have an extremely poor track record of protecting rights. They have a great track record of death and destruction and violating people's rights.

You have a lot to learn.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Crindon on March 23, 2014, 05:57:50 AM
Bitcoin can solve a lot of problems that protects the seller on eBay, but it has larger implications in anonymity and protection of private information from merchants.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: jonald_fyookball on March 23, 2014, 06:13:12 AM
Eventually, many police and military will quit and join private services to get paid in crypto, and then you can kiss government goodbye forever.

Government is needed in some form to protect individual rights ( The only valid purpose of government)

Otherwise you will have anarchy.

Governments have an extremely poor track record of protecting rights. They have a great track record of death and destruction and violating people's rights.

You have a lot to learn.

I never said government was doing a great job.
I said its needed in some form to avoid anarchy. 
Apparently you disagree and advocate anarchy,
judging by your remarks and username.   Cool, whatever...



Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: jbreher on March 23, 2014, 03:43:51 PM
Government is needed in some form to protect individual rights ( The only valid purpose of government)

Otherwise you will have anarchy.
Truly, government is the biggest killer.

And anarchy is quite literally nothing but 'absence of any ruler'. That does not seem so bad.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: jonald_fyookball on March 23, 2014, 06:09:18 PM
Government is needed in some form to protect individual rights ( The only valid purpose of government)

Otherwise you will have anarchy.
Truly, government is the biggest killer.

And anarchy is quite literally nothing but 'absence of any ruler'. That does not seem so bad.

yes government is biggest killer.

however it is not hard to see that anarchy can't last long.
quickly turns to mob rule and then you have a new ruler.
So, the rule of law isn't a bad thing in of itself.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: teukon on March 23, 2014, 07:15:12 PM
From the blog:
Quote
However, there has been a fundamental flaw in our systems of commerce since inception – the privileged few exercising control over the most basic needs of the rest of us. We all know that this doesn’t work, but why is that so?
(emphasis mine)

I don't.  In fact, I think that it does work.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: teukon on March 23, 2014, 07:20:48 PM
however it is not hard to see that anarchy can't last long.
quickly turns to mob rule and then you have a new ruler.

I find that very hard to see.

In fact, the argument reminds me of: "Bitcoins might have value today, but they can't have value for very long.  Soon enough, everyone will want to sell and then bitcoins will become worthless."


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: jonald_fyookball on March 23, 2014, 07:55:04 PM
however it is not hard to see that anarchy can't last long.
quickly turns to mob rule and then you have a new ruler.

I find that very hard to see.

In fact, the argument reminds me of: "Bitcoins might have value today, but they can't have value for very long.  Soon enough, everyone will want to sell and then bitcoins will become worthless."



The bitcoin argument you just posted is baseless and has nothing to do with
my point.  There is a reason why anarchy doesn't work and it's
because the power hungry turn to violence and organized crime.

Nature abhors a vacuum. 

If you find that hard to see, just look at places like Detroit where
gang activity is on the rise.

I'm not saying communities can't organize and protect themselves from gangs,
But then what you have is essentially local government...not anarchy.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: teukon on March 23, 2014, 08:52:47 PM
however it is not hard to see that anarchy can't last long.
quickly turns to mob rule and then you have a new ruler.

I find that very hard to see.

In fact, the argument reminds me of: "Bitcoins might have value today, but they can't have value for very long.  Soon enough, everyone will want to sell and then bitcoins will become worthless."

The bitcoin argument you just posted is baseless and has nothing to do with
my point. There is a reason why anarchy doesn't work and it's
because the power hungry turn to violence and organized crime.

Nature abhors a vacuum.  

If you find that hard to see, just look at places like Detroit where
gang activity is on the rise.

I'm not saying communities can't organize and protect themselves from gangs,
But then what you have is essentially local government...not anarchy.

All you've successfully managed to argue here is that I should add you to my ignore list.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Ikron on March 23, 2014, 09:12:10 PM
I like the idea that the cryptocurrency is decentralised. I think the real problem is that it might take a while for the mainstream society to adopt the benefits. I feel that mainstream media hates anything that is not under their control. I would literally waste time arguing to my family that Bitcoin is not "dead" nor "bankrupt" nor "worthless" out in the public. 


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Beliathon on March 23, 2014, 09:16:57 PM
It's nothing short of epochal shift that's taking place.  And it can't be stopped.
This person speaks wisely, and displays great foresight.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: jonald_fyookball on March 24, 2014, 12:47:20 AM
however it is not hard to see that anarchy can't last long.
quickly turns to mob rule and then you have a new ruler.

I find that very hard to see.

In fact, the argument reminds me of: "Bitcoins might have value today, but they can't have value for very long.  Soon enough, everyone will want to sell and then bitcoins will become worthless."

The bitcoin argument you just posted is baseless and has nothing to do with
my point. There is a reason why anarchy doesn't work and it's
because the power hungry turn to violence and organized crime.

Nature abhors a vacuum.  

If you find that hard to see, just look at places like Detroit where
gang activity is on the rise.

I'm not saying communities can't organize and protect themselves from gangs,
But then what you have is essentially local government...not anarchy.

All you've successfully managed to argue here is that I should add you to my ignore list.
   
In a lawless society, how long do you think it would be before you
get a nice visit from goons selling "protection services"?   I'd love
to hear your answer to that, Mr. anarchist.

 



Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: AltcoinAuthority on March 24, 2014, 01:22:33 AM
Very good discussion going on here, this is a topic that affects us all.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: jonald_fyookball on March 24, 2014, 01:43:35 AM
Very good discussion going on here, this is a topic that affects us all.

cant tell if that is sarcasm


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Beliathon on March 24, 2014, 01:50:59 AM
In a lawless society, how long do you think it would be before you
get a nice visit from goons selling "protection services"?   I'd love to hear your answer to that, Mr. anarchist.
"The measure of the state’s success is that the word anarchy frightens people, while the word state does not. We are like those African slaves who believe that their master is their benefactor, or those Russians who still believe that Stalin was their guardian."
-Joseph Sobran


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: nazban on March 24, 2014, 02:08:30 AM
I'm a crypto fan and would love for it to work out and grow huge and develop new ideas that can help the world. Let's be honest for a second, almost everything crypto is shady, unprofessional and most of all has a huge barrier to entry on newbs because almost everything related is a scam. It's very hard to find real professional websites and networks that stay working, are stable and don't go down often. Crypto has brought out all of the worse IT idiots throughout the world and let them loose on projects here.

Granted lots of good things have come and there are some competent secure and stable sites but NOT much at all. Look at BTC $1,000 USD+ per coin now its dropped under $600 but damn that is some money! All I'm trying to say is crypto will NEVER come close to substituting fiat or pass it if we all as a community do not raise our standards and I mean really raise them I feel like its fucking 1999 again with all this unsecured shit and trojans floating at every stop. ALT coins that have malicious code in the wallets and software and are Premined the fact that these even exist here shows that our quality is not even remotely high one bit.

There are a few good trust worthy members here on this forum and not everything is explained as above but the majority is thats our problem. Stay positive keep the good news about crypto alive. The only way crypocurrency will have any importance in our future is letting the new generation have an easy entry because they will be the ones who will build crypto for the future. Easy entry is what crypto lacks but is most important.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: jonald_fyookball on March 24, 2014, 02:35:05 AM
In a lawless society, how long do you think it would be before you
get a nice visit from goons selling "protection services"?   I'd love to hear your answer to that, Mr. anarchist.
"The measure of the state’s success is that the word anarchy frightens people, while the word state does not. We are like those African slaves who believe that their master is their benefactor, or those Russians who still believe that Stalin was their guardian."
-Joseph Sobran

soooo....just so we're all clear -- you're anti-capitalism and pro-anarchy?  :-\

"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
"The only justifiable purpose of political institutions is to ensure the unhindered development of the individual." - Albert Einstein


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Beliathon on March 24, 2014, 04:20:18 AM
soooo....just so we're all clear -- you're anti-capitalism and pro-anarchy?
Yes. I am an anarcho-socialist / libertarian-socialist / social anarchist. Take your pick. Basically, I believe in the inherent goodness of human beings.

I don't believe the warped, ignorant view capitalists take on human nature. They create a brutal system, force all the monkeys into it, and then declare those monkeys brutal. It's circular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuiQOhNpJeE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB9rp_SAp2U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCEXtpTNYU

The OP's linked article really hit the nail on the head. As far as I'm concerned cryptocurrency is the most powerful technology for human liberation since the internet.

The importance of this invention cannot possibly be overstated, and its socio-political repercussions will echo through our world for decades to come.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: jonald_fyookball on March 24, 2014, 04:32:55 AM
Interesting.  I'm not here to bash your view or get into a long debate.

I will just comment that it seems paradoxical to me, because anarchy
means no one should have any rule over anyone else, which
is basically the core principle of laissez-faire capitalism.

At least, we agree on Bitcoin and I appreciate the above comment ;)


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Beliathon on March 24, 2014, 11:56:36 AM
I will just comment that it seems paradoxical to me, because anarchy
means no one should have any rule over anyone else, which
is basically the core principle of laissez-faire capitalism.
Premise 1: Capitalism is bad science.

Capitalism is a system based on deception and exploitation, with a justice system that is NOT at all well-rooted in empirical truth. If you find this claim dubious, google "the new jim crow". Read the book.
Then check out books like Zinn's "A People's History of the United States", or "Shock Doctrine", or "Earth in Mind", or "The Underground history of American Education", or anything by Slavoj Zizek...
Turn off the TV and stop watching the fucking news, instead read as many books as you can. Never stop reading. No matter what your politics or philosophy, please, I beg you, never stop reading.

Anarchism is about eliminating all unjust authority, this includes authority based on gods, violence, force, coercion, deception, gender, age, race, creed, nationality, etc.

The most important thing we can do to bring this world into reality is forget about charity and move towards a world of solidarity, kindness, and compassion.

A true anarchist society would be a place of great equality, based on (social) justice rooted strongly in reasoned observation, empiricism, and truth.

Hell, read more books generally. I had a professor once say to me, "look, if you're going to be an anarchist, please at least be a reasonable anarchist."

To which I replied, "But professor, it is reason that brought me to anarchism in the first place..."

---

Some food for thought:

"Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies—God damn it, you've got to be kind."
-Kurt Vonnegut

---

"As to whether Marcos is gay: Yes, Marcos is gay in San Francisco, black in South Africa, an Asian in Europe, a Chicano in San Ysidro, an anarchist in Spain, a Palestinian in Israel, a Mayan Indian in the streets of San Cristobal,… a Jew in Germany, a Gypsy in Poland, a Kurd in Turkey, a Mohawk in Quebec, a pacifist in Bosnia, a single woman on the Metro at 10pm, a peasant without land, a gang member in the slums, an unemployed worker, an unhappy student and, of course, a Zapatista in the mountains."
-Social Justice E-Zine #27

---

"Antonio dreams of owning the land he works on, he dreams that his sweat is paid for with justice and truth, he dreams that there is a school to cure ignorance and medicine to scare away death, he dreams of having electricity in his home and that his table is full, he dreams that his country is free and that this is the result of its people governing themselves, and he dreams that he is at peace with himself and with the world. He dreams that he must fight to obtain this dream, he dreams that there must be death in order to gain life. Antonio dreams and then he awakens…. Now he knows what to do and he sees his wife crouching by the fire, hears his son crying. He looks at the sun rising in the East, and, smiling, grabs his machete. The wind picks up, he rises and walks to meet others. Something has told him that his dream is that of many and he goes to find them."
-Chiapas: The Southeast in Two Winds A Storm and a Prophecy (http://struggle.ws/mexico/ezln/marcos_se_2_wind.html) [documentary-movie here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TffwElt_UU), for the reading averse]
 
---

"Then I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be ever'where—wherever you look. Wherever they's a fight so hungry people can eat, I'll be there. Wherever they's a cop beatin' up a guy, I'll be there... I'll be in the way guys yell when they're mad an'—I'll be in the way kids laugh when they're hungry and they know supper's ready. An' when our folk eat the stuff they raise an' live in the houses they build—why, I'll be there."
-The Grapes of Wrath

---

There are hidden stories all around us,
growing in abandoned villages in the mountains
or vacant lots in the city,
petrifying beneath our feet in the remains
of societies like nothing we’ve known,
whispering to us that things could be different.
But the politician you know is lying to you,
the manager who hires and fires you,
the landlord who evicts you,
the president of the bank that owns your house,
the professor who grades your papers,
the cop who rolls your street,
the reporter who informs you,
the doctor who medicates you,
the husband who beats you,
the mother who spanks you,
the soldier who kills for you,
and the social worker who fits your past and future into a folder in a filing cabinet
all ask
“WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITHOUT US?
It would be anarchy.”

---

"And the daughter who runs away from home,
the bus driver on the picket line,
the veteran who threw back his medal but holds on to his rifle,
the boy saved from suicide by the love of his friends,
the maid who must bow to those who can’t even cook for themselves,
the immigrant hiking across a desert to find her family on the other side,
the kid on his way to prison because he burned down a shopping mall they were building over his childhood dreams,
the neighbor who cleans up the syringes from the vacant lot, hoping someone will turn it into a garden,
the hitchhiker on the open road,
the college dropout who gave up on career and health insurance and sometimes even food so he could write revolutionary poetry for the world,
maybe all of us can feel it:
our bosses and tormentors are afraid of what they would do without us,
and their threat is a promise —
the best parts of our lives are anarchy already."
-Peter Gelderloos

There is hope (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_UTgoPUTLQ). Today it is only a tiny, flickering ember, but we anarchists keep this new world alive in our hearts... and this hope in turn keeps us alive in this cold, dark world.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Beliathon on March 25, 2014, 12:01:55 AM
Update - why I say capitalism is awful:

http://www.walkingbutterfly.com/tag/africa/


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: TanteStefana on March 25, 2014, 06:18:18 AM
I'm a crypto fan and would love for it to work out and grow huge and develop new ideas that can help the world. Let's be honest for a second, almost everything crypto is shady, unprofessional and most of all has a huge barrier to entry on newbs because almost everything related is a scam. It's very hard to find real professional websites and networks that stay working, are stable and don't go down often. Crypto has brought out all of the worse IT idiots throughout the world and let them loose on projects here.

Granted lots of good things have come and there are some competent secure and stable sites but NOT much at all. Look at BTC $1,000 USD+ per coin now its dropped under $600 but damn that is some money! All I'm trying to say is crypto will NEVER come close to substituting fiat or pass it if we all as a community do not raise our standards and I mean really raise them I feel like its fucking 1999 again with all this unsecured shit and trojans floating at every stop. ALT coins that have malicious code in the wallets and software and are Premined the fact that these even exist here shows that our quality is not even remotely high one bit.

There are a few good trust worthy members here on this forum and not everything is explained as above but the majority is thats our problem. Stay positive keep the good news about crypto alive. The only way crypocurrency will have any importance in our future is letting the new generation have an easy entry because they will be the ones who will build crypto for the future. Easy entry is what crypto lacks but is most important.

I completely agree with this, but  on the other hand, this is kind of the wild west.  You have to watch out for yourself, survival of the fittest.  What I mean is, the reason why we live in a world where the government suffocates us with taxes, etc... is because we (as a people, not necessarily us) want to be protected to the point that every little thing that happens, someone owes us.  I slipped and fell, someone owes me, my kid bumps her head at the playground, someone owes us.  It's gotten ridiculous.

I suspect we're all here because it's like a breath of fresh air.  I've only been at this for a super short period of time, but it's given me hope for the world, honestly.  I'm old, but because of people like those of you debating here, I can see that the world still has some thinking beings and there might be hope counteracting the nanny state we live in for the future.  Lets hope it happens without violence!


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: TanteStefana on March 25, 2014, 06:43:01 AM
Update - why I say capitalism is awful:

http://www.walkingbutterfly.com/tag/africa/

That was a very interesting read, but I honestly don't understand why that is called capitalism?

"an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state."

in that very article, the King was the state.
Hitler was the state
Stalin, Kim Jong-un, etc... they are the state.

I will not side with corporations, they abuse the people through the use of the state, and I consider them hybrids.

I've always considered myself a capitalist, but my definition is much more in tune with your anarchy than what you claim capitalism is.

Anarchy: "a situation of confusion and wild behavior in which the people in a country, group, organization, etc., are not controlled by rules or laws"

True, these are traditional definitions that you may reject, but in the end, we seem to simply have a semantics problem.  If we can't get the semantics down, then we'll be butting heads for no good reason!  ???

Capitalism always works best at the lowest level with enlightened self interest.

"a philosophy in ethics which states that persons who act to further the interests of others (or the interests of the group or groups to which they belong), ultimately serve their own self-interest"

Or people ultimately help themselves when they help others.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: twiifm on March 25, 2014, 07:33:55 AM
Money and its associated systems of commerce are the most influential and pervasive man-made influences on the human race today. As the paradigm we use to associate value with something and transfer that value amongst us, currency informs us in many ways both obvious and subtle. Currencies drive societies and are responsible for enabling mankind to transact in such a way that we can all function together.

Noble, you would say, and in its purest form, few things are nobler. However, there has been a fundamental flaw in our systems of commerce since inception – the privileged few exercising control over the most basic needs of the rest of us.

You can finish reading this editorial here: http://altcoinauthority.com/2014/03/the-critical-importance-of-cryptocurrencies/


Please contribute to this discussion, we're all in this together.

Bad article that ignore simple economics.  Bitcoin will not free mankind.   It will enslave mankind.

Ok let's say Winklevoss guys own 100K bit coins.   That means they already own .5% of all the bitcoin wealth.   But since there's been 12M mined coins.  Thats little more than half.   So already 2 guys own 1% of wealth for the rest of history.  That is if your libertarian utopia comes true & all central banked fiat is replaced by bitcoin.

So instead of the 1% being varied people who made money the old fashioned way like Bill Gates,  Buffett,  Masayoshi Son,  Branson,  Oprah,  etc..   Now we have class of 1% that made money on pure speculation.

So instead of businessmen manipulating politicians to give them unfair advantage. It'll be these early adopters.   And what advantage do they need?   To control the bitcoin currency of course.   They'll be bankers.   And worse than any bankers we know of today since they can monopolize a deflationary currency without a central bank.   They'll set whatever interest they'll please.  The Central Bank is not motivated by profit.   Its role is to keep the economy going by using monetary policy.   Decentralized can't do this.   And worse half the entire money supply is already owned by a tiny tiny fraction of the population. Instead of the 1%.  It will be the .0001% that owns 99%

No thanks.   Give me the Fed with its flaws over that any day.   Bitcoin won't succeed because status quo won't let it.   I don't want it either cause its already corrupted by allowing few people own most the currency





Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: dowsey14 on March 25, 2014, 07:46:55 AM
I don't want it either cause its already corrupted by allowing few people own most the currency

85 people control the world with their wealth, and have as much wealth collectively as the rest of us.

Are you sure Bitcoin will be no better once it is adopted wide scale?

I think it will. Reason is, because it cannot be counterfeited. Unlike gold, it can't be used to coat tungsten bars ;) It's based on pure unadulterated mathematics...and the codes are absolutely unbreakable.

I think Bitcoin has the ability to destroy the monopolies that have taken over...but you do have a point with centralization with regards to mining.

Maybe Quarkcoin or Vertcoin, or perhaps some other more-decentralized mining-wise coin will take over Bitcoin as the ultimate cryptocurrency...nobody knows, and only time will reveal the answer.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Ix on March 25, 2014, 08:10:01 AM
Bad article that ignore simple economics.  Bitcoin will not free mankind.   It will enslave mankind.

The hell it will. Bitcoin opened the first door, that doesn't mean it's the only one. A currency is not going to succeed in the long run by promising that it's different this time when it's blatantly obvious that it's not.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: twiifm on March 25, 2014, 08:42:40 AM
I don't want it either cause its already corrupted by allowing few people own most the currency

85 people control the world with their wealth, and have as much wealth collectively as the rest of us.

Are you sure Bitcoin will be no better once it is adopted wide scale?

I think it will. Reason is, because it cannot be counterfeited. Unlike gold, it can't be used to coat tungsten bars ;) It's based on pure unadulterated mathematics...and the codes are absolutely unbreakable.

I think Bitcoin has the ability to destroy the monopolies that have taken over...but you do have a point with centralization with regards to mining.

Maybe Quarkcoin or Vertcoin, or perhaps some other more-decentralized mining-wise coin will take over Bitcoin as the ultimate cryptocurrency...nobody knows, and only time will reveal the answer.

I  believe its way more than 85 people.  http://escholarship.org/uc/item/3jv048hx#page-1

In any case.   Inequality is not correlated to Central Banking or fractional reserve banking.   Inequality is correlated to the transition from mercantilism to globalism.   

But its complex and many factors contribute to economic inequality.   

My criticism of crypto utopianists is they ignore the economics and politics of power.   You might be able to disrupt the curent financial system,  but what replaces it will be 10 times worse without govt oversight.   I want my money to be inflationary and controlled by a Central Bank.   Cause I want to avoid something like Great Depression


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Beliathon on March 25, 2014, 02:02:37 PM
I want my money to be inflationary and controlled by a Central Bank.   Cause I want to avoid something like Great Depression
*boggle* I don't follow your logic. Inflation and hyper-inflation have been the great evils of money since fiat was invented. Cryptocurrency solves this problem, and it does so with grace and elegance.

Winklevoss guys own 100K bit coins.   That means they already own .5% of all the bitcoin wealth.   But since there's been 12M mined coins.  Thats little more than half.   So already 2 guys own 1% of wealth for the rest of history.
This is major fail of both math and logic. Let me help you out with that.

First of all, "the Winklevii" is not a two-headed mythical giant. It's two human beings, not one. You can't count their wealth as one, even if they're twins.

Each Winklevoss owns 50k BTC, right? That's 0.5% of total BTC today, each. But only half the Bitcoins have been mined. When all BTC has been mined, they will own only 0.25% of total BTC each.
Bear in mind, that's assuming neither of them or their children or grandchildren spends ONE SINGLE Bitcoin, and assuming they don't buy more.

And if they DO buy more, it only pushes the price of Bitcoin up for all of us! Anyone buying BTC is doing us a favor!

Now being the entrepreneurs that they are, it stands to reason that instead of simply hoarding all that wealth, these guys will end up investing most of it in businesses around the Bitcoin economy, helping it grow and further benefiting all of us who are invested in this new form of money. So you see, the Winkles aren't your enemy. Let go of this childish envy and embrace EVERYONE who is a part of the Bitcoin community, because ANYONE who melts their fiat for Bitcoin is helping you grow wealthy.






Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: IrishFutbol on March 25, 2014, 02:48:04 PM
I want my money to be inflationary and controlled by a Central Bank.   Cause I want to avoid something like Great Depression
*boggle* I don't follow your logic. Inflation and hyper-inflation have been the great evils of money since fiat was invented. Cryptocurrency solves this problem, and it does so with grace and elegance.

Winklevoss guys own 100K bit coins.   That means they already own .5% of all the bitcoin wealth.   But since there's been 12M mined coins.  Thats little more than half.   So already 2 guys own 1% of wealth for the rest of history.
This is major fail of both math and logic. Let me help you out with that.

First of all, "the Winklevii" is not a two-headed mythical giant. It's two human beings, not one. You can't count their wealth as one, even if they're twins.

Each Winklevoss owns 50k BTC, right? That's 0.5% of total BTC today, each. But only half the Bitcoins have been mined. When all BTC has been mined, they will own only 0.25% of total BTC each.
Bear in mind, that's assuming neither of them or their children or grandchildren spends ONE SINGLE Bitcoin, and assuming they don't buy more.

And if they DO buy more, it only pushes the price of Bitcoin up for all of us! Anyone buying BTC is doing us a favor!

Now being the entrepreneurs that they are, it stands to reason that instead of simply hoarding all that wealth, these guys will end up investing most of it in businesses around the Bitcoin economy, helping it grow and further benefiting all of us who are invested in this new form of money. So you see, the Winkles aren't your enemy. Let go of this childish envy and embrace EVERYONE who is a part of the Bitcoin community, because ANYONE who melts their fiat for Bitcoin is helping you grow wealthy.



No it doesn't solve that problem.  Not even close.  Actual printed cash is a very small portion of money supply.  The vast majority of cash relates to cash that gets borrowed and relent.  When you have a fiat currency, a central bank can adjust the actual amount of printed currency to keep inflation stable.  With BTC, you can't.  So when the economy expands, BTC will be floating around like crazy, and worth less (prices and inflation rise).  When the economy contracts, BTC will be scarce, and worth more (prices and inflation fall).

BTC only means the actual printed/mined amount remains stable, but will not eliminate inflation/deflation in the short term.  If anything, it will make the short term inflation/deflation a bigger problem.



Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: jbreher on March 25, 2014, 04:14:32 PM
BTC only means the actual printed/mined amount remains stable,
true.
Quote
but will not eliminate inflation/deflation in the short term. 
Also true - but it may serve to _reduce_ inflation and deflation as compared to _real_ central banking.
Quote
If anything, it will make the short term inflation/deflation a bigger problem.
Only true if you believe that central banking has been successful in achieving its stated goals, as per its theoretical capability.

I see no evidence whatsoever to support such a belief.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Beliathon on March 25, 2014, 07:07:06 PM
I see no evidence whatsoever to support such a belief.
Now there's a sharp one. QFT.


Title: Re: The Critical Importance Of Cryptocurrencies - What's your take?
Post by: Beliathon on March 28, 2014, 05:09:27 AM
read this editorial here: http://altcoinauthority.com/2014/03/the-critical-importance-of-cryptocurrencies/

Please contribute to this discussion, we're all in this together.
Everyone should read the article in the OP, because it's brilliant and right on point.

Quoting for the community's benefit:

"Money and its associated systems of commerce are the most influential and pervasive man-made influences on the human race today. As the paradigm we use to associate value with something and transfer that value amongst us, currency informs us in many ways both obvious and subtle. Currencies drive societies and are responsible for enabling mankind to transact in such a way that we can all function together.

Noble, you would say, and in its purest form, few things are nobler. However, there has been a fundamental flaw in our systems of commerce since inception – the privileged few exercising control over the most basic needs of the rest of us. We all know that this doesn’t work, but why is that so? The unfortunate truth of the matter is that it is a rare person indeed who can and will subordinate themselves to the public good. After all, what kind of person is involved in this pursuit of power in the first place? The people who run our governments and monetary system are at the beck and call of special-interest groups and power-brokers who have their own agenda. The common person is powerless to do anything but accept what they are given. The result of this kind of system range from deficit financing to outright fraud and theft to human oppression. What are we to do? How can we hope to give everyone a fair playing field in life and still run our society? Hopeless…until today.

Cyptocurrencies are a brilliant answer to an age old problem – that of the Byzantine Generals. The Byzantine Generals is a problem in Mathematics and Computer Science that has seemed unsolvable for many, many years. In plain English, it asks us if it is possible to create a decentralized network that can achieve consensus. Until the Satoshi Nakamoto (a psedudonym) paper which essentially defined Bitcoin, most theoreticians thought that it was impossible. Well, it isn’t – that is exactly how Bitcoin works. I won’t delve into Bitcoin mechanics here (a separate post is required), but one of the most earth-shattering effects of cryptocurrencies is the fact that they require no central authority. No central bank, no Federal Reserve, no group of people controlling the money supply and all of the negative implications of that model. Just as the internet has empowered people through free speech and the ability to provide a testament of what occurs in our society, cryptocurrencies are threatening to level the playing field. No longer will society be at the mercy of their government and doomed to a sub-standard quality of life simply because of another’s greed and lust for power – we will finally be able to control our own financial destiny to a degree never seen before. Fiat currencies, and all of the corruption they entail, are on their way to becoming a thing of the past.

However, before I close, a warning of sorts. Nothing worthwhile is ever free – especially freedom. We will not get to the point where cryptocurrencies fulfill their potential if we do not do our part. First of all, keep in mind that people do not give up power without a fight. The governments and other power-brokers in this world have been sitting pretty for many, many years now and will do their best to maintain the status quo. Expect a lot of propaganda and associated incidents that are manufactured to make cryptocurrencies look unreliable. Be aware that these people and institutions have immense resources and will, at the very least, make a play for control of important currencies. There is a great deal at stake here. How can you help? I can see three important ways everyone can participate. First of all, speak up! Use the net to voice your opinion and support cryptocurrencies. Be aware of coming attempts to discredit this technology and do your best to expose them for what they are. Secondly, use cryptocurrencies. Simple. There are many ways to get your hands on cryptocurrencies (we give lots away on this blog – look here!). Get some and use them. We would be happy to help, so if you have any questions, go to one of our forums and ask away. General questions is a good place to start. Finally, educate yourself and spread the word. Talk to your friends and co-workers. Take the time to sit down with your children and explain what a monumentally important concept this currency is. Encourage discussion.

This is an extremely exciting time to be alive, to see the way we live as people change so very much in such a short period of time. So let’s take this chance we’ve been given and make our society a better place for everyone."