Bitcoin Forum

Update 04 November 2011:
We now have gained access to our HSBC records from last week. Missing deposits will be credited this weekend. A change in the format of the records means there is a slight delay in us important the statements. Accounts should be credited on Sunday. Withdrawals are still delayed, but the backlog should start and finish next week. Apologies for any delay.

HSBC problems

One week ago (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49664.0) our HSBC account was shut down suddenly without warning overnight. According to HSBC's own Terms & Conditions (http://www.business.hsbc.co.uk/1/2/business-banking/business-bank-accounts/business-direct-account): "7.1 If we wish to close your account, we will give you at least 2 months’ prior notice in writing unless there are circumstances in which we can justify ending our relationship earlier."

It is very rare for a bank account to be terminated out of the blue. The normal procedure is to give at least 30 days notification before terminating accounts. Many of the banks in the UK (Lloyds, Barclays, Natwest) state this in their T&C. Our lawyer is looking into this as HSBC has damaged our reputation and trust which we work hard to maintain. As a side effect, deposits from last week made into our HSBC account will be delayed until we are able to obtain the records (which HSBC has not handed us yet).

Lloyds TSB new account

Earlier this year, we were banking with Lloyds TSB before being asked to take our business elsewhere. We have been in contact with Lloyds TSB who have assigned us a personal account manager who is also the manager of the bank branch. It turned out the previous account manager was ill equipped to handle the scale of our volume and is a person in a call centre in Birmingham, and sees 300+ accounts a day. This time around we've been assigned a manager who handles 30 accounts a month due to the complicated nature of our operations and the scale of our turnover.

Lloyds TSB were very keen to have our operations back, and a formal complaint has been launched by the bank staff at the way we were dealt with. We were told that our treatment was totally unacceptable as we're a high value customer.

We are accepting deposits again with Lloyds TSB (details can be found on the GBP accounts page). Deposits may be a little slower than usual (possibly up to a week) as registration for their online service is underway. Once that's done, we'll be processing deposits immediately. Withdrawals may take longer as we are in the midst of transitioning out of HSBC into Lloyds. We are also in talks with a few other banks who have shown a sudden interest in our business.

Iceberg and GTC/FOK/IOC orders

We have added iceberg orders to the site. Iceberg orders allow someone to place an order without indicating the true volume of that order. Placing an order of 100 BTC with an iceberg value of 10 BTC, means only 10 BTC will ever show of that 100 BTC at a time. As the order is fulfilled, the iceberg amount will remain refilled until the remaining order amount drops under 10 BTC.

We have added two new order types (FOK and IOC).

Good Til Cancelled is your normal order type. Remains on the orderbook until it has been cancelled.

Fill Or Kill will only fill an order if a corresponding order can completely cover it.

Instant Or Cancel will place an order the orderbook much like GTC, trying to fullfill it as much as possible. It then immediately expires and the remaining order is cancelled.

Site changes

Various changes have been made throughout the site to improve the style and usability. There are more coming in the next few weeks.

Our company information has been added to the About us (https://intersango.com/about-us.php) page. Detailed information on our fees can be found on our fees (https://intersango.com/fees.php) page.

Questions or suggestions can be directed to support@intersango.com . We're also available on Freenode IRC #bitcoinconsultancy (look for genjix or phantomcircuit). Business proposals should be sent to our Director, Donald Norman (donald@bitcoinconsultancy.com).

We also encourage people to register for the European Bitcoin Conference (http://conference.bitgroups.org/) which is being held in cooperation with us, and for developers to have a look at some of our community projects such as libbitcoin (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=30646.0) or subvertx (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50721.0).

Amir Taaki

What are your plans for NZD?

I dont see any details on the GBP accounts page, is this to be added soon? or am i missing something?

I second this. Where are the bank details we transfer cashes too?

ONe question: are Iceberg orders available on the web interface as well? I seem to be too stupid to find them *g*

PS: @ others: Amir is currently checking the last details with their bank before the account details get posted. So they should be up, shortly.

I can confirm that the new bank is working.

Iceburg will indeed be available through the website.

I wanted to give people a progress update, since it has been a week since we last said anything, but the rest of my group wanted to check that the bank works first before we put the details up. Changes should be out later today unless Q&A finds any significant problems.

If there is a real urgency to get funds on, you can message support for the bank details.

congratulations

Keep up the good work.

genjix -

I see something on the fees page about deposits/withdrawals via Paxum, but I don't see anything in the site UI that would enable me to use Paxum.

Is that still in the works? Or am I missing something?

Nice job!

I'm overhauling the deposits system, when I'm done paxum will be supported and nearly instant.

Very nice!  Looking forward to it.

be careful with intersango, im guessing they are the next ones to go.

What do you mean with "the next ones to go"? If you think they will scam their users or such I would like to make an official bet out of it: you choose a deadline and an amount you want to bet. If intersango scams their user or looses its users Bitcoins (like bitomat.pl) I pay you - if they didn't you pay me. We can both deposit some BTC at a trusted person (suggestions welcome) and the winner gets the BTC at the end of the deadline. What do you think? Mage a suggestion for deadline and amount to bet and we can discuss the rate (e.g. you pay 1 BTC to the trustee, I pay 2 BTC or such) :)

I'm looking forward to this new service provider.

I already found a vulnerability within their site that could of allowed me to steal the entire balance of BTC... I reported it.

Earlier today I got an email from my bank asking me to confirm a sepa transfer to Intersango:
the mail claims that the bank regularly checks outgoing international transfers and then contained the details about my transaction (amount, when I sent it, bank account, etc...) If I didn't answer that email they would cancel the transfer.
The mail was coming from a "Customer Services Expert / Fraud Office "

This was weird as this isn't my first transfer to Intersango...

I sent this transfer on a Saturday night, we're already Thursday now... If this was bitcoin it would be done already >:(

On a more positive note: keep up the great work with Intersango  :)

For those worrying about losing their money: use common sense, never spend more than you can afford to lose, don't keep money unused on the site and you should be safe.

Us accidentally sending you bitcoins when we first newly setup the site, does not consitute a 'hacking' but is a human error, and then theft when you refused to pay the money back.

It was a change-over error which was controllable. The compensated loss was controllable due to the measures in place such as offline wallet for the actual site balance.

  LOL @ the 'vulnerability' then. Had me thinking he was the next uber hacker. ;p
  thanks for the update.

There were some decent people who helped me/us out in our early days when it was just me alone. We have a list of their names to reward them one day if we become successful :)

I can independently confirm that Intersango have their UK deposits back on-line.

I have had dealings with them in the past and found them to be both reliable and trustworthy.

So I'm up for joining sonba on the bet if anyone's up for it.

I'll take that bet too. On Intersango's/Britcoin's side. I've never experienced any problems with their site or services since I first used it way back.

As always, good work genjix. Looking forward to the conference to say hello.

Can you explain why the new Lloyds TSB account is owned by a new shell company called "Interteni LTD" ? Does Lloyds TSB know who they're really dealing with?

Yes they do. As stated here (https://intersango.com/about-us.php), it is a temporary company as Intersango LTD is owned by multiple share-holders who have to be present to open the account or be available to a notary abroad. That takes time, but we fully intend to switch the account from Interteni LTD to Intersango LTD in the future. Right now, there are more pressing matters.

Interteni LTD (company number: 07826131) under the Companies Act 2006.
Intersango LTD (company number: 07683978) under the Companies Act 2006.

The certificate of incorporation for Intersango is available on our about us page, and the one for Interteni should be available later today. For now you can download it from here (http://libbitcoin.org/07826131.pdf).

We are required before opening the bank account to divulge all information and I was completely open about our activities. The manager was told about http://intersango.com and the full details of Bitcoin Consultancy's operations (which I drew her some diagrams of our company structure to explain to her colleagues). Considering that the Lloyds bank manager was extremely displeased at our prior treatment and took several photocopies of our past statements and letters, they know we are the same people behind Intersango LTD. Our website is on their records, and for us to lie or falsify information is highly illegal and would put me at risk of jailtime.

Thanks for the explanation :)

yogi, garyrowe - you don't get the idea - I'm looking for people who bet AGAINST Intersango :)
On a more earnest note: nice to see that there are quite some people who agree with me that intersango is completely trustworthy!

I think you should assume that your Lloyds account will not last long. 1-2 months I would guess. The Branch Manager may like you as helps them hit their target for new small business accounts, but as soon as the info gets up to the Risk Management / Compliance / Money Laundering / Head Office you will be out.

You should open a few other accounts as contingencies. Maybe try http://www.bocukltd.co.uk/ or some other odd banks as none are going to be your friend.

Or maybe try some offshore accounts.

Not wanting to be a troll, and have used you to buy £150 of btc's (just in time!), but the reputational risk for the bank is significant (hit-man paid in bitcoins extracts cash through Lloyds account etc...) and the income you will generate for them will be small (relative to billion+ profits).

Good Luck - I think this is the one area that is going to be very hard for bitcoin.

Bitcoin, the straw that broke the camel's back?

Lloyds boss goes sick with 'stress': Shock departure eight months into job, 3rd Nov 2011

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056474/Lloyds-CEO-Antonio-Horta-Osorio-takes-medical-leave.html

um, about those billion+ profits...

£3.3bn loss for the six months to 30 June 2011

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-14399176

"It may be many years before taxpayers' £20bn investment in Lloyds can be privatised - unless the chancellor is prepared to take a loss on the sale”

Update 04 November 2011:
We now have gained access to our HSBC records from last week. Missing deposits will be credited this weekend. A change in the format of the records means there is a slight delay in us important the statements. Accounts should be credited on Sunday. Withdrawals are still delayed, but the backlog should start and finish next week. Apologies for any delay.


Yeah, Lloyds is partly owned by the public sector. The nice thing about that is that as a consequence they have a sane Terms & Conditions that doesn't entitle them to do whatever they want. Also Lloyds is a very play-it-safe bank and doesn't unnecessarily over-expose themselves to high risk assets like some other crazy banks.

The downside is the inefficiency that comes from being partially of the public sector.

Ok you got me there!

Should have been:

and the income you will generate for them will be small (and make no dent in their billion+ losses).

But my general statement still stands, and the fact that they are Government owned possibly even re-enforces it. Once the top management find out what you are doing your account will be closed. Maybe they will give you the 2 months notice in the T&C, but I am sure they will find some small print about money laundering they will use to close it like HSBC did (not that I am saying you are a money launderer).

I just wanted to drop in to say that following a short, apparently HSBC induced black-out, intersango got me all my money back a few days ago, as I always expected they would. And I am now some number of bitcoin to the good :-)

Thanks guys :-)

No it wasnt a hack, and you didnt accidently send me coins. You couldnt even work out how i was able to do it untill i showed you via teamviewer. I didnt expect you to be stupid enough to not correct my account after the demonstation, but after you fixed it, said nothing, no thanks or anything. So I kept them, that is not theft.

   Ahh, but of course, there are 2 sides to that coin. Thank you for the update.

    Cheers

just realised your getting me mixed up with another time when you sent 512 coins to someone.

my bank just called me, asking wether the sepa to intersango was ok? because, "well, uhm, that account has - let's say - caught our eye before".

just thought I'd let you know this fun fact. The bank is ING-DIBA.

EDIT: it get's even better:

I was just going to verify I had entered the SEPA details correctly, only to discover my online login had been disabled.
I called ING-DIBA and they told me the login had been disabled due to suspicion of pishing and that I probably had malware on my computer.

I inquired how exactly this flag was triggered and asked if they had a IP of the supposed pisher. They couldn't give me that info and said the lockdown had been activated manually.

I reported on the call I got earlier about the intersango SEPA and asked wether that might've triggered the lockdown. Answer: probably.

So probably something in the past happened with a SEPA from ING-DIBA to intersangos account at BANK ZACHODNI WBK SA. Maybe someone tried a chargeback and claimed pishing...?

interesting.

My bank is the Dutch version of ING (The same company, even the logo).
I tried to send money to MtGox' UK address, and first my TAN function was blocked due to "a rootkit" (Didn't find anything after exhaustive search, and the internet tells me they "detect" this when a TAN code is used twice or something).
After getting that working again (call them etc etc, wait 5 days, go to local office to pick up code, go back home to fill in code in computer -.-), I tried sending to MtGox again, but after 5 days got the money back because the Fraudmanagement department said that address could not receive money. Calling customer service revealed no further information.

I'm beginning to suspect that either the ING is anal in its fraud detection schemes, or they are actively trying to stop Bitcoin transfers.

Interesting. At least the service people where friendly to me and everything was resolved by phone quickly in my case.

If they tell me the same thing, that the address is somehow fraudulent and can't receive money (as if it's the receivers fault), I'm going to be really pissed and it also might give us some hint as to wether or not they specifically block bitcoin. That would be a biggie if we could proove that.

That adds up nicely to some weird behavior I detected when I recently made a transfer to the same account (I'm in the sepa zone). Usually transactions immediately show up in the transaction history, but this time it did not. After reading this I think the transaction was flaged for manual review (didn't know something like this exists within online banking, feels like paypal) for some reason. I was sending from Germany using an account at DKB. I'll keep you guys updated.

For me the service people were tedious. They weren't able to tell me anything about the Fraud management stuff, after being forwarded 3 times. I sent a snail mail letter of complaint asking for my customer service call costs back, and also mentioned that I would appreciate it if they could tell me more about why it was blocked. I'm still waiting for a reply.

Banks suck.

True dat. Let's convert all my money into bitcoins, and never use banks again.

Crap, my bank won't let me convert all my money into bitcoins.

Hate to be proved correct, but looks like I was only a week out on my estimate....

Intersango seem to be unable to accept GBP payments at the moment.

I think we should all move to a new approach, a new software/site, based on something like Dark-Exchange integrated with Bitcoin-OTC integrated with Bitcoin Client integrated with some social network, maybe Diaspora.

So, everybody will be able to buy/sell Bitcoins and use their own bank accounts. Ending the problem of exchangers being unable to work with banks after some time.

How long will take for U.S. gov try to take down the Bitcoin traders (a.k.a. MtGox/TradeHill/CryptoXchange)?

We need a easy way to bring regular people to the trading environment. People as mini-mtgoxes around the world...

Cheers,
Thiago

Intersango posted more information:
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=58731.0