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Something for nothing? You must be talking about capitalists. They make money off the backs of workers.

Thanks to the free market, there is so much abundance of everything where they grew up, that they think they could live off that and even redistribute the wealth (by force) without worrying about making more.

Unfortunately they don't stop to think that if everyone did the same, no one would produce anything and they too will end up in misery, just like it happened in Venezuela, and earlier with all the failed "real socialism" countries of the former eastern bloc, the Soviet Union, Mao's China, etc.

They didn't even have a concept of what life was in those places, how could they possibly not like the empty promise of socialism: "Everything you need shall be given to you..." Until you do it for real, and there is not enough for everyone, because everyone stopped making wealth, and those who get to decide who gets what under the new "system", end becoming the new untouchable wealthy elite class, which was ironically supposedly going to disappear...


Nobody forced you to sell yourself to others. If you can't find a job, start your own business, something socialism would never let you to do...

In socialism the free market is gone and replaced by a State institution that decides everything from prices, to what you can work in and when, therefore the power to freely choose is taken away from the people and given to the bureaucrats.

Therefore the natural entrepreneurial sense humans develop in free market economies, is replaced by corruption. Simply because in a free society your work provides your needs, but in a socialist society your needs depend on the will of the few chosen to manage the (everyday more limited) things.

So do a "favor" to a bureaucrat (party member, etc), and your family might be able to eat a month... Working under socialism does not provide enough to keep your family fed (despite what pretty slogans or laws they dictate), the system literally forces you into corruption to survive.

If you think capitalists "exploit" you, wait until you feel what being exploited by the State entails...

Really. This again. In today's world it would be easy to prove it. Get 100,000 to contribute $100 and you would have a company with 10,000,000 start up capital. That's enough to start something and go through some going pains.

Oh, where do you get this money? Much, much more is spent going to rallies, renting buses, buying food, etc... Spend that money creating a business. Create jobs. Don't exploit your workers. Do something.

...

After all, according to you it's so easy to create a business.

Its always amusing to hear members of the 1% talk about how great capitalism is.  Thats the point.  It makes our lives great at the expense of 99% of the people on the planet...and the planet.

Yeah just like in all of the developed countries with free healthcare....Why would anyone work when they could just go and just get free surgeries over and over for the rest of their life?


In addition to your privilege of being in the 1% and having the means to start your own business, you have no idea what socialism is.  Can't start your own business?  Where did you get that from unless you're talking about private insurance company?

there is no such thing as a free market. never was, us capitalism was limited by perfectionism, christanity/judaism, and racism. if it would have been free america as a nation would have never existed. everyone would have created his own money

In the end, the free market wins. Socialism always fails, always had, always will.

well jes

but the problem in the usa is that businesses cant get stable contracts because the banks can't lend money

if the banks are to complicated and dont lend, or can't lend to anyone except the rich it can severely damage the economy of a freedom egalitarian goal seeking society like the united states.

whats the point living in the united states if you there are only the money earning cattle of the rich feudal elite?

Ah, so only 1% can start a shop now? Only 1% can do freelancing? Only 1% can buy stocks, forex or crypto and earn a living from it? Are you still living in late 19th century? I suppose only the wealthy get to ride the train too?

Free healthcare, free education, free housing, free food, free gasoline, where does it end? Why bother working when the State is in the obligation to provide all? And how does that State gets wealth to keep everything running? And who gets to watch that wealth is used according to plan? Oh it all works perfectly, nobody treats it bad because its public ownership... Reality: everyone treats it like garbage "because its not mine, I don't care if it breaks". Now extend that disease to society... What you own you care for, what you don't own you don't care. The "New Man" is not coming, ever. Socialist countries do not freeze in time by choosing, they no longer have the means to renew. If something breaks it might be the last time you had that thing.

In real socialism you do not own anything, and you can't start a shop, it belongs to the State. And only the State decides if a shop there is worth having, and who is going to run it, and what prices should have and what wage you will earn. At the end of it, it would have been better to stay at home than waste your time with such a miserable pay that you end working for free for the State, and sometimes even paying for the "privilege".

The reason you defend socialism is because it sounds so pretty from your theoretical utopian point of view, but you haven't lived in the results from it. You point to free healthcare, but real socialism doesn't end there. It takes everything from you, destroys it, and then blames "others" from all the failures.

Starvation in China's Mao? Imperialists. Starvation in Sung's Korea? Imperialists. Starvation in Castro's Cuba? Imperialists. Yet all the surrounding "capitalist" countries with the "masses of poor exploited workers", happen to be well fed and living worried on things like: When its the next drama episode coming out?, or the new "shiny new toy", will i be able to afford it? Should i get a second part time job to buy it? While someone in the socialist countries wonders if the bar soap will hold for the next year before he/she might (or might not) get to obtain the next one...

When someone mentions me socialism, image of stagnation and misery is what comes to mind. I don't need to imagine it, unlike the theoretical socialists living in wealthy nations like most of you are, all i need to do is go outside...

Why do you think it failed in Venezuela with all that Oil that would make it perfect for the socialist experiment to "finally work"? After all, the others were poor countries and surely couldn't afford those dreams; but Venezuela could right? Nope, they broke the State oil company. The socialist machinery leads to corruption, and a new super elite and wealthy class, this time protected by the state (just like the old monarchies) emerges under the guise of "socialism" while the masses die outside the palace/presidential villa. The irony is that a similar country, with an actual monarchy (The Saudis) actually got much better results. Because unlike real socialism, they didn't mess with the market.

When you lie about the market not being free, its to justify your meddling. This is where the destruction starts. What you don't explain upfront, is that socialism needs to impose and coerce your ideas into others. It is about forcing YOUR thinking into others. In a free society wealth can be redistributed by choice (ie. charity, sponsor, patronage), under socialism, you are ORDERED to surrender your wealth to the State or else...) And sure enough, all wealth is quickly gone, and the hyper giant Socialist state goes bankrupt. But because money is a "capitalist lie", and "inflation does not exist", we add zeroes to the State bank accounts and everything should fix itself... NOT.

The only reason you don't oppose socialism is because you haven't lived in it, period. Leave you life (and money) behind and move to Cuba or North Korea some years and see if you like it. Hey, at least you don't need to pay for healthcare, right? Good, because you might need it soon...

nope you are wrong,

you misundertand how capitalism works if its unchallenged, its basically a big attentionhack like bitcoin, that is being used to:


yes capitalists also are forcing their thinking into others, not just socialists, they say if you take this coin its valuable, but you have to do for me something.

us capitalism without foreign imperatives/socialism through kongress, banking system and the populations behavior is just a big scam. they think they just print money and pay to those people that want to work something.

it will reveal itself this way. i dont have any doubts about it.

thats why your beloved bitcoin is in a bear market the fraud of attentionhack printing money and giving it to workers, is basically extemely demotivating for everyone that works.

those that work for money are usually the idiots of the capitalists, since money creates a lot of asymetry.

in fact, in socialist societies there are also capitalists, that print money, and let others work for it. so you cant really say that.

in my oppinion everyone that works for money in a capitalist society ends up as a loser.

I find it can be easily broken down like this...

One party thinks it’s about what you can do for your country. The other party thinks it’s about what your country can do for you.

I’d explain which is which but it’s clearly obvious to anyone, so that isn’t necessary.

something for nothing?

that must be the banksters philosphy because the money they printed is worth almost nothing

That is very true. Bankers do love Socialism. it allows them to more efficiently siphon off public resources quickly and providing minimal value in return.

It's easy to provide free health care under socialism.

If you are sick, and get in the line and wait for care, you get a bandaid.

If the government worked as well as advertised there would be no issue - except tyranny. But we don't even get a good product. Look at the VA hospitals.  "They're great." said no one ever.

To those outside the US, VA Hospitals are hospitals for military veterans. The lines are horrendous and there are scandals every few years.

As opposed to working for nothing in a socialist economy?

---

If you are lucky... More often than not, when its your turn after 3hrs+ of waiting in line, the bandaids are gone. "Try maybe next week, or try walking some miles to the next health center, they might have some there..." Then at the next center: "The bandaids were stolen, try elsewhere". At another one: "we don't have electricity, center is closed.", etc, etc, etc.

nope in socialist societies you also work for money. but socialist societies focus on infrastructure investments, in capitalist societies when no one is opposing it, the capitalists usually just centre the economy on themselves the problem with capitalism is that it is just an attention hack with a bunch of money printers taking power and then trying to controll the financial system and centre it on themselves. like we can see with bitcoin (lambos, moon corrupt cryptocurrency index etc.).

you know this quote?

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."

well thats also the case for capitalism, since someone dominates always the financial market.

Socialists are exceptionally stupid. That is Socialism's only strength. The power of stupidity and entitlement in large numbers.

jes socialists and all those that work for money instead of scamming others with printed money are stupid, the capitalist wins in the end anyway.

seriously why work or fight for financial justice, lets just focus on attention hacks through wars or so called innovation with corrupt indexation systems etc.

plus explain me:

1. how do you want to get people to work without socialism?
2. how do you want people to work and trust into justice of a society without socialism?

are you one of those sorts that want to create a capitalism that forces people into eternal salary slavery?

how about i do that with you how would you like that? i controll the entire money, have all the freedom and you have to hope its valuable.

This occurs in collusion with the state. A BIG state with lots of "controls" bureaucracy and meddling, such as Keynesian or the Chicago school. If they can "money print", they have the control of the money. Austrians proposed just using gold almost century ago, but we now also have crypto which can't be tainted neither by state nor private conglomerates. Some people got in early and cashed the benefits (and some were fool to sell at a loss or not hold, etc) so be it, its within their freedom. The coin is out there and can be used. With time its price will slowly stabilize, and go in the deflationary direction, if only because every fiat and even some cryptos go the inflation way...

I think the best way to oppose socialism is education. Lets start here:

💱 Price System | Free Market vs. Government Intervention
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Xem0BPe3MNU/hqdefault.jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xem0BPe3MNU)

"Do nothing" (to the government) is exactly the opposite of socialist thinking. Socialists want the almighty government to meddle in everything, but it turns out they make things WORSE, when they do so. It "sounds" desirable in theory, until you learn how things really work in real life.

My country went down the path of (real) socialist economy, and is now among the worst living conditions on Earth for the vast majority of its citizens (as opposed to a small super rich elite connected to the politicians) Ironically, exactly what the socialists denounce they will "correct" (by force under State intervention), ends causing a much worse situation.

Austrian school economy is powerful against socialism. Most of their rhetoric finds (correctly) flaws in other types of (unfortunately) more popular schools of economy. Ie. Wealth by debt is fast, but produces constant bubbles and recession. That's the economy supported by fractional reserve banking, it is the same economy that keeps Ponzi schemes profitable, after all, there is people getting rich

Pretty much if you aren't in the 1%, or being supported by a family member in it, then you have to go to work each day or you will starve.  There isn't flexibility of time or disposable income to do any of the things you mention. 

Not everything but the bare necessities to get people started. Think about it this way.  What does a child need to have a good life? (go on to start a business or freelance, etc)  Everyone should have those things.  Even if you don't think adults deserve those things, depriving adults only punishes their children.  We aren't talking about giving people everything they desire.  Just the necessities.

This is a lie.  Socialism abolishes private property but not personal property.   You can still own everything except someone else's personal property or someone else's labor.  You cannot own the means of production.  Under democratic socialism, you cannot build a factory to manufacture things the community decides it does not need.  Think about the amazon HQ2 as a good example of corporate socialism.  The community decided it didn't need to spend 3 billion building amazon's hq2 so they will spend that money on affordable housing, infrastructure, and small businesses instead. 


You aren't mentioning democratic socialism.  You are mentioning state socialism where the entire economy is dictated by a small group of people.  We are in agreement that this is bad and I don't know anyone who advocates for these examples.  Therefore, any further mention of them will be correctly labeled as strawman. 

There is no such thing as democratic socialism. Democratic Socialism is just re-branded Fabian Socialism. All forms of Socialism are on the spectrum of Communism and based on Marxist theory. It is a system designed to create more of itself until a full Communist state is attained.

hey if you love capitalism so much, i can help you i can also abuse you as money earning cattle, and i promise i will not be social i will centre the economy 100% on myself, every aspect of the economy will be centered on me nothing for you except some bad rice every day. you will get a 1m² to live with an old dirty sleeping back and a toilet that will basically just be a bowl you have to empty regularily.

you are sitting in the usa, a country that cant even produce the good it needs, and is constantly indebting itself globally. without chinese, germans, and japanese constantly funding your debt you and your capitalism would end up in a war striken third world society.

i join every capitalism no matter how cruel  if i have access to the financial system

Communism is even more democratic than democratic socialism.  Coming from someone who has lived on an actual commune.

So you lived with a small handful of smelly hippies. Cool story bro, I guess we can scale it up to the nation state now without problem!

If that's not the best example of confusion between communism and socialism I don't know what it is.

You understand that in a socialism state, not only is the free market not gone, but creating a company is both easier and less risky?

False. A bureaucrat decides if you can open it or not, most often he will deny it because he has the power and you don't. Most business disappear or go underground, since they would violate a decree or "law" anyway. Those few with enough money to bribe can usually manage to get their permit, so it becomes a privilege for few to run a business in a socialist state. Quite the opposite of what socialists preach, ironically.

Socialists want the almighty State to intervene everything, and overwhelm society with so many rules and regulations, even if you tried to follow to the letter it would take years to get anything done. It is a system that removes entrepreneurial stimulus and replaces it with bribe and corruption.

Then what, want to hire a worker? Can't hire it for few hours, must be all 8, can't work 2 or 3, hast to be all 5. Cannot work more than 8 hours, else you have to pay him double. You can't fire the worker if your business is going bad, you have to sink with him, etc, etc.

Hiring a worker is too difficult and expensive under socialism, and this is only the tip of the iceberg. Socialism is a true Pandora box once you open, your country can go from being the most rich to the most poor. Socialism is a corruption machine.

If i haven't lived it myself, i would have never understood Milton Friedman's quote:
Of course reading books and watching classes of Austrian Economics gave me the clear answer, Mises book (https://mises.org/library/socialism-economic-and-sociological-analysis) is the definitive answer to Socialism.

Education in economy is the answer.

A beureacrat deciding what workers can do is a hallmark of capitalism.  Under soialism, the entire community would decide together what they will produce based on needs of the community. 

You keep talking about what "socialists want" but show me socialists who want that.  As a socialist, I've never met them.  Of course someone who only learns about socialism from capitalists will grow to hate socialism.  Instead of letting capitalists tell you what socialists want and what socilaism is, maybe you should start with primary sources. 

https://www.socialistpartyusa.net/principles-points-of-agreement

You have serious problems registering the difference between reality and theory, or in your case fantasy. Your little hippie commune system does not scale up to a national level. There will always be representatives. Even if technology allowed it pure Democracy is shit and is not desirable, it is nothing more than mob rule where individuals have no rights. Nothing good comes of it.

Ahahahahahah
Oh god what the hell dude? You're completely broken braindead xD
yeeeeeeeeeeees of coooooooooooooooourse. Don't bother giving real life examples of such things.
yeah I feel you, really.

Ok so please could you like either provide just a tiny little fact?
Cause here you're just ranting about how horrible socialism giving completely crazy examples (like how you can't hire/fire a worker or whatever) and as someone living in a socialist country and having opened a business here I never saw such thing.

On the contrary opening a business in a socialist country is surprisingly easy and secured.

My first business was opened in 8 hours and the great thing was that with the evil devil socialist government I wasn't risking all I have in the business. If I failed then I had some legal protection making it impossible for the banks/suppliers/clients to come and take what my family had.

But yeah just continue ranting about how horrible socialism is xD

And please go back to school <3

So could your incredible mind propose an alternative? As democracy is evil.

While you are dreaming unicorns in your fantasy world, i'm living in it, but hopefully not for much longer...

The things i wrote come from specific cases from 15+ years living in "socialism", but i don't need to convince you since you don't care about the truth.

Move to Cuba and see all your fantastic utopian theories go wrong, because you ignore the human nature thinking people will act like you wish them to. Well they don't, humanity tried in several places and all of them failed the same way. It is the likes of you who are completely "braindead", but you don't dare come without money and live in your socialist dreams for various years. Happily preaching from wealthy capitalist countries without worries of lacking medicine, food or a foreign invasion, all thanks to your types in the world filling the youth with garbage.

Socialism is dead and buried and that's where it should always be.

Exactly what I said.
Cuba is communist not socialist.
Know the difference.

Replace all your "socialism" by "communism" and I would fairly agree with you.

"Socialism: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism


Socialism is the introductory stages of Communism, both based in Marxist theory. They are indistinguishable except in scale and progression. Socialism is designed to be a delivery mechanism for Communism. Maybe before advocating for an ideology you should actually know something about it.

This is a short audio clip, but very spot on on this matter:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fQQi7xlpORY/hqdefault.jpg
The Destructive Cycle of Socialism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQQi7xlpORY)

This person mentions the same things. if people had basic economics education, they wouldn't fall for socialist lies.

Everyone should know rising minimal wages is bad because it reduces jobs and chances for getting better wages (by switching to a better job on a market with plenty of job offers) vs a socialist order to rise the wage, then nobody wants to hire people get stuck with what miserable job they are with.

In the same vein, a socialist order to "Lower prices" immediately provokes shortages and outrageous prices in a "black" (illegal) market, which is the only place you will find things again...

Notice how socialist can only act by force, and not freedom of choice. In a free market economy, prices of goods will either go down or improve, due to competition. Socialists don't care about competition, and consider it wasteful. Surely if those "wasted" were used to, say, help the poor, everyone would live better right?... WRONG, the moment you put those resources in hands of someone not involved with the market, ie. the bureoucrat, corruption ensues, AND you lose: the abundance, the quality and the wealth you were intending to give to the poor, and the poor can't even work to solve his problem, he is then forced to "find away" in the system ie. bribe, or commit a crime of becoming part of the "black" market...

You don't know these things because you have not lived the results of your beautiful socialist theories, and where they lead to. Granted, it sounds attractive, to someone who:

A) Lacks basic economics education.
B) Has not experienced it first hand.

Millenials, grew up in abundance, have not studied basic economics, become easy pray for socialists...

Want to destroy a country? Let socialists in power.

Funny how so many people simply say "you have not studies basic economics" as the best argument against left while... It's simply not true.

I don't have a major in economics but I did study macro and micro economic for about 3 years as a secondary learning. I'm still socialist. I know tons of people in the same case.

Did you learn a bit of economics? Have you read Smith? Haven't you been pissed at the fact that all the wonderful theories still rulling current economy are all based on completely stupid assumptions like "equality of knowledge" or "perfect competition" or even "rationnal behaviour" which are all completely crazy assumptions?

capitalism naturally causes hate, war and violence,

i feel the natural behavir due to spam in my telegram groups, from american icos, that spread their spam with bots into the world.

capitalism sucks and is scam, but in communism there is also capitalism.

regards

there is no real escape from it.

doing capitalism means basically changing an eternal shifting centre, and constantly seek the attention hack and then flood the people with "coins"

jes abundance and why should they degrade themselves under a captialist that wants to threat them like money earning cattle for private wealth gains?

its not that socialist banking doesnt, work, in socialism there is also capitalism, just a social one.

you dont understand that

Reading just Smith? How about you read Mises (https://mises.org/)? scared to learn the truth?

 Here is what socialism really is:

• https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZlLdjcUAegI/hqdefault.jpg Day 36 : Video 1 | Socialism: Definition (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlLdjcUAegI)
• https://i.ytimg.com/vi/mJbjvqUmYVk/hqdefault.jpg D36:V2 | Socialism as an Intelectual Error (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJbjvqUmYVk)
• https://i.ytimg.com/vi/weh3S2pjvWg/hqdefault.jpg D36:V3 | The Impossibility of Socialism from the Viewpoint of Society (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weh3S2pjvWg)
• https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YhcE3Kx3ccY/hqdefault.jpg D36:V4 | The Impossibility of Socialism from the Perspective of the Governing Body (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhcE3Kx3ccY)
• https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1uVdrYRZVqo/hqdefault.jpg D36:V5 | Why Computers Make the Impossibility of Socialism Even More Certain (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uVdrYRZVqo)
• https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Bgo5q5gyRto/hqdefault.jpg D36:V6 | Other Theoretical Consequences of Socialism (I) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgo5q5gyRto)
• https://i.ytimg.com/vi/FEDUxdWc9r0/hqdefault.jpg D36:V7 | Other Theoretical Consequences of Socialism (II) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEDUxdWc9r0)
• https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UT6gEiiAMrg/hqdefault.jpg Day 37 : Video 1 | Real Socialism, Democratic Socialism and Conservative Socialism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT6gEiiAMrg)
• https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Bz4WgQb3kgg/hqdefault.jpg D37:V2 | Scientistic Socialism, Christian or Solidarity Based Socialism and Syndicalist Socialism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz4WgQb3kgg)
• https://i.ytimg.com/vi/NUAhc_GGPR0/hqdefault.jpg D37:V3 | Criticism of the Alternative Concepts of Socialism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUAhc_GGPR0)
• https://i.ytimg.com/vi/66YGWqxV62s/hqdefault.jpg D37:V4 | Interventionism (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66YGWqxV62s)
• https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TUwxnH_LaHc/hqdefault.jpg D37:V5 | The Direct Intervention of the Government on Consumption (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUwxnH_LaHc)

Professor Jesús Huerta de Soto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jes%C3%BAs_Huerta_de_Soto) shared his classes on Youtube, if you are interested in studying other aspects of economy, go to his channel. Content is available in Spanish and now dubbed in English. Highly recommended.

https://yt3.ggpht.com/PQI1CqMk8HSDr57YZHsQaJQELd6g6FB7l918YCg0DyIs-L1f8JuRdm6MH5VpbH1ozniyP5blqxM
JHS Oficial (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxEVye7RNuzjXfOoJkl9jlQ)

The problem is that there are multiple definitions of communism.  There is the definition Moglie is using which is what most people use in common conversation that defines communism according to what "communist" parties have done in the past.  Then, there is the actual definition which you have just posted. 

Yes if people have BASIC economics education, they will reject socialism.  Understanding socialism and its benefits requires much more than a basic economics education.  It requires a very complex economics education to identify the flaws within a capitalist system and pinpoint possible solutions.  "Basic" economics is oversimplifies everything and turns an otherwise empathetic human into someone who thinks the market will solve everything. 


I really ask that people like Artemis try to learn about socialism through socialists instead of only learning about socialism from capitalists who will obviously portray it in a way that is completely unacceptable.