Bitcoin Forum

https://www.ccn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/0318etf-680x350.jpg

The industry’s enthusiasm for a Bitcoin ETF (exchange-traded fund) appears to be waning — if you judge that by the dearth of new comment letters to the Securities and Exchange Commission in support of the investment vehicle.

The SEC received just seven comment letters from the public in response to a solicitation for feedback it had requested in February 2019. Of those, six urged the agency to reject the application. (That’s around 84%.)


Reference: https://www.ccn.com/bitcoin-etf-sec-receives-84-negative-feedback-on-application

I see that some of the negative comments revolve around market manipulation and people losing money. I tend to agree with the assessment that there is market manipulation. But there is also market manipulation (by the big banks) in the forex market that goes unpunished. People losing money is hardly an argument also. Nobody is forcing anybody to invest or trade for short term gains.

That being said, I don't think that Bitcoin needs an ETF. ETF can be a hidden source of inflation and additional manipulation. So we are better off without it.

This whole ETF thing has gone from being so much desired with people eagerly waiting for it to a thing that only gets a meh! or a yawn!. Probably by the time one of them finally get the green light there will be no one left to clamp their hands.

And, why do we need those ETF? For "investor's money'"? For "Wallstreet"?
I remember how many were enthusiasts when CBOE launched its future options, about the same number as the ones blaming them afterward for dragging down the price..

I myself dont personally dont have much interest in the bitcoin ETF and I have also said several time that I dont see the SEC accepting the ETF because it will literally be a terms which some powerful people will use to control or manipulation crypto market. In the case of CBOE and CME we also see some people who use the advantage of it to causes market down trend.

Back then people thought that the ETF is what bitcoin needs for it to gain traction and create another dramatic bull run which will net them a lot of profit. Those delusions and wrong assumptions ultimately waned and faded because SEC wouldn't give in, and people have shifted their attention towards something more doable on their terms without relying on the authority to make the move. See, just like the Chinese back in 2015 who lost its charm on the market over time, the ETF is also experiencing the same scenario albeit having a direct effect on the market given that most people bank on it. Even the futures market hype has died out after the ATH has withered..

I think from the very start they really don't have plans to approve it, there were applications already before this noise made by the WV twins but still rejected. And most of the applications last year were rejected too and now that they ask for feedback, still negative.

With the delay and other reasons that SEC is coming up with the application of bitcoin ETF, we tend to lose interest to it. Now, most are coming up with that idea that we really don't need it.

SEC is very late with his work regarding crypto
Still SEC didn't create rules what is security what is not
Bakkt CEO told in last interview that both CFTC and SEC regulators don't understand what blockchain is and how to manage  that.Now Bakkt CEO teach US regulators about blockchain
World will not wait for USA blockchain and crypto currencies is big money on the table
Biggest US companies wants to enter crypto. Facebook.IBM and last news are about VISA
So i think that ETF will be finally accepted but not yet now

right, it takes time to be able to receive ETF, this is proven by the increasing number of companies that use it. Lastly I knew that the New York Times also started using blockchain, of course this could be a consideration too

It was somewhat expected due to the increasing number of criticisms received for the proposals of synthetic ETFs. Also the propaganda marketing of Banks against cryptos have fueled such kind of comments as well. I would not be surprised if we later find out that these people are even somewhat affiliated with Banking Business.

However, ETFs will not bring any real value to the crypto market as majority of the proposed ETFs are synthetic in nature. Only exception is the Winklevoss one! So no need to be sad either!

For the developing of the market, I think.
With a larger trade volume, the market will become more resilient to any kind of dumps and with a larger amount of qualified traders FUD won't be so dangerous for the market. In general, it may lead to more stable BTC price.
Comparing to BTC futures those ETF will really buy BTC from the market while futures were just gambling within CBOE where no one has been buying a single sat.

Probably now is not a good time for the adoption of the ETF and it should be finalized so that the SEC does not have unnecessary questions and complaints. I think that by the end of the year, when there will be a rise in cryptocurrency prices, the relevance of the ETF will reappear and there will be more of those who have a positive attitude towards the adoption of ETF Bitcoin.

It's sad to see someone still not too open minded about bitcoin, the world is advancing in a rapid speed of technology, if we keep on deny the new idea then we can't have a better technology in our lives, usually the one that rejected is the one that not understand the intention of bitcoin creation, and the old traditional investors who don't want to learn about new things

I don't think of ETFs anymore because bitcoin can remain between us and it will, with or without ETFs. Let them decide to approve or reject bitcoin but one thing I'm sure, people will choose what they want. And if people feel that bitcoin can really help them, then they will choose bitcoin, and there is nothing the government can do because it is a public vote and they cannot fight the public.

I do not know why you are so confused with type of Bitcoin ETFs, especially since you repeatedly asked for differences and got an explanation. Winklevoss ETF is based on futures, just like most other proposals - and the only one who could make a difference is ETF from VanEck’s SolidX&CBOE which is physical, means that shares are backed by real bitcoins.

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Regarding negative feedback for VanEck SolidX Bitcoin Trust, it is only 8 comments (https://www.sec.gov/comments/sr-cboebzx-2019-004/srcboebzx2019004.htm) and they are from some random people, they have almost no effect on final SEC decision. Also 5 of them is posted on same day, it is possible that one person is responsible for all comments.

The article and the headline when you look at them screams clickbait as hell. First of all its just 7 letters that went there, only 7, compared to amount of people who will use this ETF for their investments the letter count of 7 is just funny, for something this important it should have been in the thousands but people do not care to send anything to SEC, they really don't care about it, they just let it be. And when you say 84% of all letters send were negative you mean literally 6 of them, just 6 bad letters to SEC about the bitcoin ETF.

Not that I care what SEC thinks of bitcoin and bitcoin ETF but in all honesty, having only 6 bad letters about bitcoin ETF is a good number, I would have assumed like 2341 good 5423 bad ones and so forth not like this small amounts. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you, its all fine.

You are quite on a point. ETF is a form of regulation just like the forex market too and the banks do manipulate it. With ETF, we are likely to see a huge manipulation from the whales collaborating with the regulating body to capture the market to themselves.

Then expect the price of bitcoin to go down once this news spreads like wildfire and I'm sure the twitter world will explode again, thus creating a avalanche of negativity causing others to panic again. But majority really knows that SEC will just give us another rejection because obviously, this market is really prone to manipulation, admit it or not. So I'd say, prepare for the worst again and hope that no one will go on a panic mode (specially noobs), and push the sell button once hearing this news.

I think bitcoin does not need the ETF at all because without the ETF the crypto market continues to run, only if the ETF accepts it, the bitcoin will be more trusted by investors because so far the discussion in bitcoin-related ETFs is a matter of market manipulation, even though the manipulation can only by a number of large banks that we do not know that the bank has plunged into the cryptocurrency market.

What is the problem with BTC being trusted by investors? Right now we have whales, the only way to make market more stable is to increase the amount of those whales and the general market cap.
None of the major markets consist only from minor users.

I think people oppose competition and seek a rejection for that reason.   Theres an ETF for all sorts of commodities and currencies and many are not stabilised or based on any set monetary base.  Where as Bitcoin has a quite straight forward schedule for its past and future currency release, there is no sudden change to that likely unlike something like XRP where the majority of the coins are hidden away to be gifted to the makers at a later date (massive debasement)

Problem is the dollar itself and many currencies are not stable exactly and release as much new money as they need to pay bills.  

That's right.We need a global mass bitcoin adoption before some ETF approval decision.
Having bitcoin ETF approved will prove the point that bitcoin is a "digital gold"/speculative tool and nothing more.We want bitcoin to be a fully functional currency used by millions of online/offline businesses and all their customers.This is the only way bitcoin will gain enough trust,so the institutional investors/Wall Street will adopt it.

Of course there's market manipulation. Sellers want to get as high a price as possible and buyers want to maximize their purchases by getting in at the lowest price possible.

So it works both ways. Everyone was happy to take advantage of highly inflated prices in 2017 and early 2018, weren't they? I don't recall anyone complaining. But when it's on the other side, people lose money and cry foul. So typical.

I think we should abandon this idea once and for all. Bitcoin was not created for the sole purpose of trading. And it's not a security. Bitcoin is money and should be used more in this genuine sense. Not to mention that SEC is the same organization that basically failed to do their job and let the crisis of 2008 hit the world. They keep saying they're good at what they do, but they're not. They ignored serious flaws making the real estate market a bubble, and now they just decided to stick to traditional stuff and not experiment with anything new. It's okay for us as the community, really. We don't need a regulated market of bitcoin traders anyway. We need people who believe in the future of this technology and its impact on everyday life.

Meh, I just grew tired of waiting for this so called Bitcoin ETF's, however, I was quite surprised to see that it got 84% negative feedback on the application. I see someone trying to play mind games again, it could have been manipulated for all we know. However, as I have said, the excitement from all of this has waned out, so I don't know if people are still expecting a possible ETF's as it looks like SEC will not approved at this point with the same reasons as the previous rejected applications, - market is prone to manipulation.

Right. Though i doubt a lasting effect, i think a lot of investors outside the crypto community are looking in from the outside. And an approved etf will boost confidence in putting new money on the market. Don't see any harm in that.

People are all writing about the negative feedback and no one gives a damn about the fact that it was SIX negative feedback, just SIX, nobody cares. Bitcoin ETF will not be the salvation for bitcoin for sure, you will not see bitcoin going to 20 thousand dollars or more in price as soon as Bitcoin ETF gets accepted, of course the price will move upwards a bit and maybe who knows it will move past one resistance and that is great but it won't be a huge deal.

Nobody in bitcoin business really cares about it and honestly I think it will only affect like 10% of whole crypto users anyway and god knows how much of that 10% will use it anyway. So, this is something that is important for maybe 2% of all of crypto users, the rest 98% will continue their lives like nothing happened.

It is kind of press manipulation
There was only seven responds on SEC webiste
six of them were negative one was positive
There was above thousand comments previously around 90% was positive
It looks like people don't want to repeat his comments
It is only procedure SEC will do what SEC will like to do

I think that the important piece is that it was based on only 7 opinions. What does it tell us?
For the most part, the public ignored the SEC. Out of thousands of US citizens who know what cryptocurrencies are, only 7 people/institutions gave feedback. To me it says a lot. Maybe nobody cares? Maybe nobody believe in the SEC seeking real help and knowledge? Maybe the community knows they will do what they want anyway, and their idea with public feedback is just good acting?


That's what I thought as well.

Something I have noticed is the fact that there is less talk about ETF even on this forum, meanwhile Cryptos adoption is growing gradually ,It is better we have adoption driven by retail adoption than by some etf. Cryptos does not really need an etf as the institutions handling of crypto will remove it from the reach of the average Joe in the street

I agree with you. Why do we need ETF funds while the BTC is on the right track and working normally. I feel that the ETF only has negative effects on Bitcoin.
currently the decentralized market is still very good and investors still earn a lot of money from the market.
no one will want to change it anymore.

Number does not matter but it will really matter what opinion these 6 people have expressed. If you count number then only "1" person is President but he got authority and make changes that million people cannot do.

Anyway , I am not at all the fan of bitcoin ETF, it is just money grab attempt by corporations and nothing to do with bitcoin.
Do you know , they are going to be paper ETF(you can just print 100 million bitcoins in paper or whatever please you)

It will be good if you read the below discussion.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4861485.msg

Everything is being manipulated by the whales in this market. ETF will be approved but When ?
Well, ETF approval will take place just before the bull run is about to start. Investors and whales will have collected a lot of bitcoins and altcoins by that time. They will give the EFT approval news and it will be start of bull run. Maybe we see more than 1000$ increment of price of bitcoin on a single day when this news become viral.

i think no more etf's acceptance or rejection is not very important. because it has been continually declined, therefore investors no longer care. but the steady rise of bitcoin, and the termination of futures it was good..  in my opinion etf will be accepted..

It can tell us few things. First is that people are confused that previous application is withdrawn, and new is submitted shortly thereafter. People who post comments before, most likely will not do it again because they will considered that a waste of time. Secondly, even the birds on the branch know that SEC do not care to much (or in general) for some comments, especially about something like it is bitcoin ETF. To live in the belief that the opinion of a small person can change something, means living in an illusion.

Thirdly, we should consider that very little time has passed from new application, and that this ETF case will probably last for maximum 240 days, which means that the number of comments will surely increase. (currently 12 (https://www.sec.gov/comments/sr-cboebzx-2019-004/srcboebzx2019004.htm))

People here may not care much about an ETF, but others do see an ETF approval as a major catalyst for Bitcoin and thus crypto in general. It admittedly would be cool to have, but we won't get it in its current form.

The only type of ETF that we can expect to be approved in the nexy couple of years is an ETF solely functioning as cash settled price tracker. These type of products are just as useless as the futures contracts we already have.

Those are very good points.

As for the comments, some of those counted as negative by the survey are actually pretty simple and childish. It's obvious that by asking for public opinion they were hoping for something more elaborate than "I don't want it, don't let it happen", but this is exactly what they got.

Hello,

I would like the committee to disapprove the proposed ETP. It has no value as a financial product let alone as a currency.

Sarah
Sent using Zoho Mail

How do you know it will be approved before the bull run? It's empty speculation based on nothing but wild thoughts.

The SEC has been very clear with how they look at this market, and there is no way that we can satisfy them without players such as Bakkt and Nasdaq entering the space and actually generate solid volumes. Bakkt has to deal with regulatory doubts and concerns when it comes to the custodial part of their service, which will very likely need a couple of more monthe to satisfy the CFTC. In the 'worst case' scenario it could take all the way till next year with how Bakkt doesn't seem to enjoy much priority within the CFTC board.

Absolutely. Just like what i think, This scenarios is the result because of the SEC itself, last year they keep to buy some time about Bitcoin ETF just to make it looks like bad, and of course most of people already boring with this kind of news

Inappropriate use of percentages, first of all, I'd say.

I don't necessarily think that the interest in bitcoin ETFs are waning due to these negative responses, which are not binding in any way since they are just comments. I think that the market is finally somewhat recognising the fact that the exchange traded funds, even if they were to be approved, will most likely be used by institutions and will not benefit the bitcoin blockchain or its users. This is in contrast of the market previously hyping up ETFs as if they were going to solve bitcoin's long term scalability problems or something.

I certainly don't believe it's very likely that an approval will occur in the near future given the previous precedents with the SEC's decision. Most people saying that it will somehow get approved this time round or whatnot are purely speculating, and have no tangible proof to back it up.

this is not the first time that ethics has been rejected, because it was previously rejected. in my opinion there is also a big scenario behind it, but I'm sure they will be pushed and will accept it later

What ethics ?  You mean etf ?  No it wasnt rejected before but they only cancelled it . maybe your right , there might be a big reason behind this rejection but i also agree that they might accept bitcoin later on because bitcoin is still growing and they dont want to be left behind  among other institutions that are already teamed up  with bitcoin  .


You arent alone with that because that is also what i notice . etf hype have subsided for a while because people do also got bored about their false promises  .  bitcoin is still growing on its own which is a good thing because the growth is natural  . we can say  that bitcoin can live on its own and how much more if etf is accepted ?  The rise can grow more evenly  .

I honestly say bitcoin and altcoins never needed an ETF, but I do know that it is good for everyone in a way, but bitcoin is there, with or without ETF!

There was a time in which people were very excited about the possibility about this been approved, but that is no longer the case, the SEC has rejected so many applications that most people have given up the hope that we are going to see a bitcoin ETF anytime soon, in fact it is very likely that if in the future the SEC finally decides to approve an ETF that people are not going to even notice and the impact on the price is going to be minimal.

That's good news.

Maybe SEC and BAKKT were the reason why the chinese turned off their machines in November, causing this dive to the 3k levels. With these instruments (and also CBOE futures) removed, they can turn on their machines, and we will be back on track.

Yep, it means the ETF hype is officially dead. That's the type of sentiment I like to see to indicate we're near the end of the bear market.


I think hash rate was just following price. Bitmain did divert some hash power to the BSV/BCH split but miners were mainly shutting down because the price crashed.

People are already tired of waiting so they decided to stop playing games with them. The continuity of bitcoin usage will always be here no matter what. And with or without ETF, big companies are still pursuing their blockchain projects and so with the increasing number of crypto users. I believe that is more important for the time being.