Bitcoin Forum

PLEASE NOTE:

Introduction

Okay this is going to be a super long post but I would like to preface by saying that I have been part of online forums for a long time and I see the same problems time and time again. I feel that I need to voice my opinion about what is happening on BitcoinTalk even though I don't have a ton of experience. Don't just read this post and believe it, think about it yourself - come to your own realization about what is going on. And don't be one of those people who "agrees" but does nothing to help the issue, the fight starts with you. I would like to make clear the fact that this post does not only apply to BitcoinTalk, but more of the crypto community overall.

Signature campaigns

So I wanted to start out with the most obvious and worn out issue that continues to plague this forum. Signature Campaigns are advertisements plain and simple, they can buy your content and have their ad placed 300 different places for $30 a month. That is stupidly cheap in the advertising industry, especially for niche advertisements. And no, it's not a single campaign that is the problem as commonly cited. It is any campaign period, they all promote shilling, uncreative content, and risky business. The only reason advertising is so cheap is because people will sign up for anything that pays them free coins, advertisers have gotten accustomed to the stupidly low prices that they can offer here. Other websites they pay tens of thousands, but here they can give a few cents and everyone comes running. This isn't the fault of the company though, it's the users of this forum. It's not even just the people who sign up for these campaigns, it's everyone. If you use any of the sites that are advertised here so often (which most of you probably do), you are contributing to the problem. The person wearing the signature is at just as much of a fault as the person who clicks the link. The reason these companies keep coming back is because they get engagement and in overwhelming amounts. I see a lot of people throw stones at each other for advertising a company which they believe is a scam. All of these companies are exchanges and gambling websites, they are all scams in a way. They make money and prey on the hope of "hitting gold". They can all do pretty much whatever they want and participate in shady activities mainly because of the lack of regulation and moral. So the solution? Stop engaging. Stop feeding the greed and hype around these "investments" and companies. Stop promoting dumb companies so you can gain a few bucks for doing so, I don't care who you are, if you have one of these signatures, you are part of the problem. Same with people who run these campaigns and click the links, we all feed these corporations and we need to stop if we ever want hope of redemption.

The marketplace

This problem has and always will be around forever, the prevalence of scamming in the online world is shocking. However, this is one of the worse forums when it comes to marketplaces. Many like the blame the moderation of the forum but that is hardly the problem. The crypto community has no understanding of buying or selling whatsoever. The reason scammers are so rampant is because we feed them. It's all a numbers game, they will get one person dumb enough to send them $10, every fucking time. Whether it be through some sob story or chargeback / hacked account, they will get someone. And guess what? They will get away with it, every fucking time. Crypto is the currency of criminals whether you like it or not. Scammers are hardly the only problem in the marketplace though, combined with loans, hacked accounts, credit cards and so on. There is never a safe deal, I don't care who you are or what you are selling / buying. I honestly think that the marketplace should be done away with all together, but I would like this to be more realistic. Stop sending people money, I don't care if it's a small amount or "you don't have much to lose". If you get scammed you are almost as bad as the scammer because you are perpetuating the problem. We need to do a better job of general education, of alerting newcomers. Yes there are posts about this, but how is it on the Newbie to know that they need to read these posts and not trust anyone? They don't yet understand how much scamming there really is and how often it happens. They don't even realize that some people here would take $2 from them if given the chance. They believe that people are good and trustworthy, not criminals. But online, everyone is a criminal as they mask their identity. Go the extra mile in being proactive and warning people. I also feel as though there aren't enough good and safe alternatives to the things being sold there. There is not a trusted seller for anything really, which puts buyers in an uncomfortable position to begin with.


Misuse of trust

As of late I have seen this everywhere, and before you start righting a nasty comment to me, hear me out. I understand that trust is unregulated, as I believe should be the case. I understand the reason behind the trust system and the effectiveness it has in most cases. I understand the frustration many have in regards to the trust system. But I am going to have to say that the trust system on BitcoinTalk is broken and people have lost sight of the reason it was created in the first place. I have some controversial opinions about what trust should and shouldn't be used for, however I feel that most would agree that the trust system should be purely backed by deals. I don't care if someone upsets you or offends you, that doesn't mean you need to tag them. I don't care if someone "lies" about something or shitposts about this and that, everyone does that. No one is completely innocent and has lied / shitposted plenty of times. We are not perfect and there is no reason that trust should be based purely on opinion and the thought someone else has about you outside of the marketplace. The purpose of the trust system was to help people identify with better accuracy who was safer to deal with. Now it's used more as a way to gatekeep and abuse power. If you think someone has broken a rule, report them (another problem I will get on to later on). It is not your job to decide whether the user is trustworthy or not, no one really cares about trust outside the marketplace and so it should stay related to the marketplace only. People don't look at trust to decide if your post is valid or not, they look at it if they are thinking about dealing with the user. This isn't even against the rules surprisingly enough, but it shouldn't have to be against the rules. We should be able to act like the adults we are and keep the marketplace and our opinions separate. Another case that I often see is the instant distrust of Newbies, and while I often agree that 90% of the time they are scammers (and should definitely be tagged), you need to be careful. Tagging someone as a Newbie can completely ruin their chances of ever being able to have a decent experience on the forum. You should only do this if you are 99% sure they are a scammer. I will go into rank discrimination later on, but I think we need to be more careful on how we treat the newcomers to this forum. The system now more than ever feels like a childs game of tit for tat and the fight for dominance. Your trust isn't related to your dick length, so stop acting so childish about it (either side). I'm tired of people whining about trust abuse, but they have some valid points. The system is being misused and it's up to the people overstepping the bounds to reign it back in. Trust has become dependent on some many things outside the marketplace, that it is beginning to mean nothing anymore. Yea sure someone might be tagged in the marketplace but how sure can you be that it wasn't because someone was annoyed with them? I'm sure many scammers use this logic and they aren't wrong. The problem is the disassociation of trust from the marketplace isn't only that it loses its original purpose, but that it starts to mean less. It no longer has the weight that it should, meaning it's practically useless.

General toxicity

Related to the all to common misuse of trust, toxicity is another huge problem I see on this forum particularly. I understand this mostly has to do with the generation of people who use this forum and the views they have, but that doesn't have to play into every conversation. There doesn't always have to be a right or a wrong answer, and even if there is you don't have to bet someone up for making a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes and you should treat others how you wish to be treated. The biggest problem with toxicity though isn't only that it just makes everything unfunny to talk about, but it is commonly targeted at newcomers. Most of this has to do with the feeling of entitlement related to rank (more on this late) but a lot of it has to do with the bitter attitude that many forum members have on here. Everyone always likes to complain about things and has shitty things happen, but you don't have to take it out on everyone else. If you don't like the forum any more then leave, you don't have to make it a worse place by complaining about how you hate it here. And this is far from the case for everyone, in fact a lot of the people on here are super nice but they automatically contribute to the problem without realizing. They these comments and hate towards others but do not wise to get involved (sometimes I think this is a wise decision). But if you see something you don't stand for even if that person outranks you, say something. Don't beat around the bush and just straight-up tell someone they are being an asshole, a lot of times it's because they don't even realize what they are doing. We need to have a better code here for things we are willing to take and things we will speak out against.

Lack of content, and incentive thereof

I have been here for a while and although this is a common problem with forums especially I think it's pretty obvious that BitcoinTalk has had a severe deficit of meaningful content. There are a lot of threads that really have no redeeming value that have thousands of replies and views / usually because they have been around forever. I understand the thought process a lot of people have, they are scared to voice their opinion mainly because of the reasons listed above and the fact that they feel their opinion will never get heard. 90% of valuable threads get immediately buried by these mega threads that are still alive for some reason. You see the same old threads over and over again and soon you begin to believe that there is legitimately no new content out there because surely someone would have posted about it. But this isn't true, there is tons of stuff to make a post on. I don't care if it's dumb or trivial, if it's original then it's helpful to the forum. A lot of people are here to have fun and learn new information and would appreciate some new stuff every now and then. But this brings me to the point about the lack of incentive for such things. Why make a new thread when it will just get buried or hated on, it's just a waste of time. I would like to counter the popular opinion here on merit: Merit is not used enough which leads to gatekeeping and crappy content. People seem to be way to averse to giving someone else credit for something, even if it's small. Merit is hoarded and guarded like treasure, a resource if you will, rather than a +1 for good content. Yes I agree people shouldn't be awarded merit willy nilly or for shitposting but hell it's not like someone will shoot you for +1ing a Newbie. Take your distrust to the marketplace and leave it be for peoples content. Good content never gets rewarded enough and people seem to shun it, the idea of Newbies dominating the forum seems to scare many people, but you have to realize that they are the future of this forum. This brings me to my next point, but I think the solution on content is quite obvious - quit being so stingy with merit and where you post. Help the little guy out every once in a while, we all start somewhere.

Automatic hate towards newcomers

I have to say that this forum has some of the worst hate and distrust for Newbie members. Yes I realize that a lot of this distrust is somewhat warranted especially for the amount of scammers, but again give people a chance. Not every new person is here to scam you out of a dime, not every new person is a jerk that will ruin the forum. Newbies are the future of this forum and we should treat them as such, you ever wonder why people on this forum are so bitter? A lot of it has to do with the fact that people treat them like shit when they were newer to the forum, the cycle needs to end. This is one of the most pressing problems for this forum, if you don't stop the forum will die. Stop hating on Newbies so much and there will be more actual people willing to participate in this forum compared to scammers. Hell, I don't even blame most people for being suspicious of newcomers because who in their right mind would join this forum now. Give people a second chance, there is no reason to have such an unforgiving ride or die view of everyone on here. Not everyone is a forum "expert" like you think of yourself as.

Rank holds too much importance

Again relating to the topic of rank on this forum, holy god I have to say that as far as gatekeeping and entitlement, BitcoinTalk has to be #1. I remember joining a few years back and being gobsmacked act the amount of money and time it takes to get anywhere on this forum. You practically can't participate or do anything until you are Senior member which takes years to get, not even close to the amount for Legendary. In fact anyone who is Legendary achieved their rank long ago when it wasn't so fucking hard to go up a level. Any new member quickly realizes that they have almost no chance at getting anywhere in this day and age before they lose interest or get banned. No wonder account sales are so high, it's impossible to gain any respect any other way. People look at you like your shit and won't even listen to you because of your damn rank. Buying an account is practically the only way to get anywhere now a days, and yes I get again that a lot of these "thresholds" are put in place to prevent scamming and such, but it's not really helping. All it does is quickly turn new people off to the idea of a yearlong uphill battle to get almost nowhere. Related to the incentive problem I cited earlier, people need to feel like they are getting somewhere for what they contribute. No wonder there is so much shitposting, as it's almost impossible to get anywhere posting only quality content. Stop putting yourself and others on such a goddamn high pedestal and have some perspective and respect for people trying. It's not always about who has the most coins under their name or who owns the most bitcoin. Your rank isn't equivalent to your power level, it's equivalent to your experience and should equate to the tolerance of others.

Lack of proper reports, moderation and initiative

This is more of a solution to a lot of the problems having to do with spamming / scamming, but I want to make sure I emphasize my point correctly here as this topic should not be taken lightly. To restate a previous point, reports shouldn't have anything to do with personal opinion of the poster. The one and only question you should ask yourself is: is this post breaking the rules? You aren't jury and executioner here, it's the administrations job to figure out whether your report is right or not. There should be no reason to take this issue into your own hands by using trust or toxicity. I have seen the latter way more than I think is right because the report becomes second hand. There is no incentive for reporting and users feel they have more power taking it into their own hands when it comes to rule breaking. While I agree it's good for people to stand up for what they think is acceptable in the community, it gets taken way to far all the time. This leads to more arguments and toxicity when the conflict could have been avoided all together by clicking report and moving on. Another common complaint I've seen recently is about the "lack of moderation" which I find myself chuckling at. Yes of course there is a lack of moderation because there are so many damn useless posts the mods have to sort through and so little reports that actually apply to the rules. Everyone seems to default to the premise that mods are not doing anything when they are not helping by reporting useless things / not reporting at all. There needs to be some more coordination between the mods and reports and the users need to feel like their reports are actually doing something. Because of right now it feels like there is just an endless stream of scammers and spam to even bother reporting yet another post for such a small thing.

Favoritism and entitlement

Although I feel I've exhausted this topic pretty extensively, I want to point out another angle that I think is often overlooked. We have already gone over the reason why toxicity to newcomers directly relates to the feelings of entitlement and seniority older members have, but this goes both ways. Yes maybe older members SHOULD have some more perspective and be nicer, but they are often the target of a lot of hate and blame. While it might seem that I hate older members, this isn't true. While the toxicity towards newcomers is more obvious, a lot of the mid level members like to blame staff and others for their problems. Yes we realize that you no longer reside in the depths of shame that members and under do, but you don't get to yell at and blame older members for everything. This is another case of the vicious cycle that happens when one group is toxic to another, and it needs to stop. The mods aren't out to get people, they are simple here doing a job and they aren't perfect. Not everything has an ulterior motive behind it and not everyone wants to stab you in the back. Yes I'm sure some members are favored over others, but it's not because they have the staff on their payroll. It's because they generally are helpful and make their job easier. The staff isn't corrupt and although I agree they aren't perfect, they do a pretty good job considering the bullshit they have to put up with.

Lack of updates and new integration

While the lack of newcomers doesn't help the forum I think this is one of the main reasons BitcoinTalk continues to fall behind similar websites. This forum was made over a decade a go and it still looks and feels like it. Yea I kind of like the theme honestly but it's far behind contemporary websites. Considering the amount of support and people on this forum I'm shocked there hasn't been a revamp yet. I'm 100% sure that doing at least an appearance upgrade would drastically improve the amount of people willing to come and join. There are no new features and updates that keep people coming back, this forum is stuck in the past and we need to move forward in order to survive. While this may have more effects than I am pointing out, both positive and negative I feel that it still should be a priority. The crypto industry moving fast and it seems like this forum keeps slowing down. There is no reason that this forum should be using a 2010 theme in 2019.

Conclusion (Please read this before commenting)

Well those are a few of my opinions I feel that I must share before I go crazy trying to process this stuff. The main reason I made this post is because I feel a lot of people think the same thing, but they feel like no change will come of it. I have hope that this community can change and that new ideas have a chance at making it. I am sorry for the absolute beast of a post but I tried to keep it as streamlined as possible while still achieving the goal of getting my message across. Although it probably appears that I am the forums arch nemesis I only post this as a form of constructive criticism and a way to bring some issues to light. I'm sure a lot of you knew most of these but I hope that I brought a new point of view to light for some. BitcoinTalk resists change very strongly but change is a very sure thing, the only variable is rate.

Well, I would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on anything in this post, big or small. This is meant to be more of a prompt for a more refined discussion on the issues this forum possesses.

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Updates

I think an updates section is appropriate now to inform without having to make new posts. These updates should be taken with a grain of salt because a lot of these things change on a dime. If you have anything that you think would be worth putting on here, send me a PM. Anyways now that I have set the grounds for this section I will try and update if anything interesting happens.

#1: Theymos takes action against yobit signatures


He also mentions that neg-trusting for spam is not appropriate which I think clears up a lot of confusion. I think it's definitely the right decision and the post should be reported without users taking action themselves. Hopefully we will see more improvements in the near future.

#2: Ranking up is Possible! My top 10 Hints! Thread >> (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5098333)

I didn't see this thread when it was initially published (April, 16th) however I think it is relevant to this thread and provides an opposing view to my initial one. I think this is a really great post about the merit system. Although I did cite some flaws above, I really think that @fillippone has done a great job to help new members understand the point of the system better. New users I think are confused on what merit is and what it means to begin with, which can be very frustrating. A lot of users seem to think that quantity > quality, which is the opposite of how the merit system works. I said the merit system was broken, but now I am hesitating to continue that hypothesis. I think its really the lack of education surrounding the merit system and the purpose of it. This post is amazing and I think it is a great contribution to the community, it motivates others to post good content which is the ultimate goal.

Some thoughts because it's late in here...

"Misuse of trust"

This forum is a shitshow. There are so many scammers/shitposters/people who only care about money that it would be a wild west without the DT users tagging those who can't be trusted. Do we see abuse? Of course. But most of the times the tag is justified.

"Automatic hate towards newcomers"

I'm sorry if 95% of the newcomers are just spammers (and I say this because I'm on this forum every day and I can confirm that's true). There are so many spammers every day splitting nonsense for the sake of ranking up and getting money. It's really annoying. But when a golden user appears somewhere (someone who actually wants to discuss/be part of the forum), no one is going to attack or hate him. Fact. I help many newbies here every day and if they are not shitposters, I respect them and actually make some time for them. I've had long conversations with other users through PM, helping them with their doubts or problems. The rank is not the problem. The problem is their intension in this forum.

About the "Lack of updates and new integration" section, there is a new forum software being developed (it actually already finished) and we are on the bug testing phase. There are no constant updates here simply because it's pointless. The forum will move anyways, so why change anything now?

https://github.com/epochtalk/epochtalk
New forum software (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=167.0)

---

So, what even changed from this:


to you making this thread? What is your idea to "help the problem"? Looks like you are just pointing out the obvious (which we already know and many users already stated multiple times). Basically, nothing new to see here.

A+ for the effort but you're missing the boat by a mile on many of those points. For one, I don't think real newbies are in any way abused here, nor do they really need to care about ranks other than perhaps getting one merit to be able to post images. If they're here to contribute content (one of your other points) - they can do it at any rank. However the onslaught of farmed accounts and shit-stirring meta-alts is real and they are not here to be "the future of the forum".

You're also making many assertions along the lines of "I don't care but I'm gonna tell you how it is" and "no wonder this or that" in a way that doesn't feel well-substantiated.

And give it another read, there's a few typos.

Well can't say I'm surprised at this response and I this is pretty much what I expected. I think that many people feel this way and I'm sorry that you happen to be in the line of fire. I feel very strongly in the points I have addressed and I will defend them as necessary. To make this easier on everyone I think that I will try and split this up into smaller parts.

Lets start with your first comment:

Okay, I'm having trouble figuring out exactly where to start here as there are so many things wrong with this. I wouldn't go as far as to call this forum a shitshow, but it isn't at it's peak for sure. I have stated and acknowledged the fact that there are a decent amount of scammers and shitposters on here in the section you refer to, however my point is that there is abuse and a lot of the problem is constantly feeling tags are justified. I don't wish to restate my entire argument regarding this part of my post but that's the attitude and mentality that is harmful to hold on to. Would it really be the Wild West without DT users tagging people? There are a lot of preconceived opinions here that seem to be shared with a lot of the veteran members and I think it's important to realize that they don't have to hold true.

In reference to my section on the attitude towards new members:

I already acknowledge the fact that the majority of newcomers are in-fact spammers and join here with mal intent, but that is because of this attitude. Any newcomer who comes with good intentions seems to be shut down and they leave as soon as they realize that they won't ever make it anywhere. I'm sure it's annoying and I see your frustration, but it's importance to have patience. Well from your comment about "golden users" I can't help but feel the analogy to the "golden age", which seems to be your thought. Yes this forum has had better times (and these are the times in which these users actually exist), but that doesn't really translate to right now. I'm sure many users would be happy to stay if given a real chance, but they aren't. I realize you may not be able to see the rank disparity as you are on the other side of the spectrum, but it very well exists. But you are right on one note, which I also already addressed in the post: the rank is not the problem, it's the attitude and entitlement that's the problem. If your response isn't enough proof for this, then I don't know what is. And no it's not fair to blame "peoples intensions" as that is largely opinionated and usually ill-conceived. As I have said before, yes there are people who shouldn't be trusted, but it's unfair to look at everyone that way. Although I could probably point out more issues here, I'll move on as I think I've made my point.

Your next point:
Still nothing new here, I said lack of updates and integration specifically because I know there is stuff that could be added, but it hasn't been yet. If it's finished then it should be implemented, you seem to realize that there is probably resistance around this. The most irksome part here is your assumption that "constant updates" are pointless. Updates are necessary and absolutely not pointless at all, updates improve things and motivates forward thinking. Your last sentence I think is the sad part that is one of the main reasons nothing is ever really done: "the forum will move anyways so why change anything". You need to accept the fact that it won't change if everyone thinks this way, it's the bystanders fallacy. Someone has to realize that at some point and take action on it.

The last part cracks me up a bit as I think this really drives home my point about entitlement and distrust in general:


I'm sure your natural response was to instantly look at my post history which is fine, but it really doesn't have any relevance to my argument. Again it feels like people always need something more in order to validate themselves when in reality it plays not part. And to answer your question, no nothing changed. I have had these thoughts for a lot time and decided to share them, in no way did my opinion on anything change. It seems as though you didn't bother to read most of my post, which I'm not surprised by but it makes me a little frustrated. I listed numerous ways the problem could be helped which you seemed to miss, but I think my main point was that our attitude towards other forum members must change. We need to stop blaming our problems on external factors. And yes, none of these things are really all that new, they have been around forever and that is exactly the problem. The fact that none of this is new is the most concerning part, we have known this for a while but no one is doing anything. I made this as a way to spark a discussion on these topics so we could come up with a solution.

Hopefully this response will help stop a lot of similar stuff in the future as I'm sure there are a lot of others with a similar opinion. I hope that future comments can be more constructive instead of "nothing new to see here" and the restating of my points. Again another reminder to read my post more thoroughly before posting out of outrage at the first controversial point.

Well, it's also late here, so I'll keep it short.

That's not true at all. Ok, maybe if you want to accumulate dozens of accounts to start shitposting or selling them to make money but if someone is at least a little bit interested in contributions to the forum, ranking up will be no problem at all. You don't even have to know much about crypto, learning step by step is always the way to go. We have a few new users in the German section and there are no problems for them, no harassing by high ranked members and they also receive some Merits if their content is somewhat useful. There is still a lack of Merit sometimes, yes I don't deny that, but it's not that bad how you are describing it.

I'm around here for a year now and can tell you that everyone has the possibility to rank up if he puts a little bit effort into it. My online time is 16 days and that's not much in my opinion. If I had more time I would be online more often but that's how it is. Even as hobby participant it's possible to rank up, so don't tell me the only solution is to engage in account sales and buy an high-ranked account to cheat everyone willing to contribute here and rank up the legit way.  ::)
And then, it's no crime to wear a paid signature, like your accusation sounds like. The problem are poorly managed signature campaigns, the good ones don't make any problems. And ironically, another problem are the account hackers / sellers offering accounts for spammers.

Your various buzzwords we know from previous discussions like "Misuse of Trust", "Ranking up is impossible", "Generalizing that all Signature campaigns are a problem" or "Hate towards Newcomers" let me think that you are just continuing what has already been discussed.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that there are no problems but that will just be another discussion like so many before.


Where did you get it before? Not interested to post from your main account?

PS:
And while seeing your long reply to TryNinja, I think I know already that will end up unbeneficially. I'm always open to good suggestions but that won't lead to anything...
When red trust?

I don't know if we are suppose to hate the newbies or we hate the ones who introduce Bitcointalk to the newbies. They we're directed to this forum because that's how it was introduced to the newbies. Living in a third world country, $100 a week from a signature campaign is $100 a week, its better than asking money in the streets or looking for looking for plastic disposable water and sell in the junk shop but then again, it doesn't justify the reason to spam the forum with non-sense opinion just to get paid. Until now I still see posts in FB groups related to Cryptos saying "It's easy to earn money in Bitcointalk by posting", instead of "you can learn a lot in Bitcointalk about Cryptos".

Some of the campaigns are just giving the tokens so it is not worth of $30 dollar.
Whom do you think responsible for this shit show?  Forum or users?
(I snipped that part but my guess is you are agreeing with users)


You clearly know who is in fault here.


Frankly speaking, whom you are considering newbies here , in reality they are seasoned scammers. From the very post they know where the lending section/other intricacies of the forum. Anybody want to have a decent experience, first need to observe things and I find very rare examples where users are really paying attention to stickies and rules.


I can agree that forum suspect anybody that is new to the forum but I guess you will understand this behavior if you spend some more time here.




Nopes, but you need skills to find/filter the content of your need

Read my previous answer in "General Toxicity"

Only if you want to participate in Sig. campaigns

I did not understand the gist of your text. Do you mean to say that "Report to Moderator" does not work?

There is no favoritism. Even legendary accounts get permabanned for breaking the rules (most common plagiarism.)  

+1  here, Though epochtalk is in pipeline but I can agree with you till it go live.

Forum administration is not very much interested in generating money from the forum and that is purpose of all the forum you are describing here.

Now I will like to add few things that you did not added.
1. You can get honest opinion in this forum for free.
2.Forum is not at all biased for anything. You are free to endorse your product (if it not illegal and not breaking forum rules). Forum does not give any ratings to anybody (that most of the contemporary website do for money)

I guess , you had not spent enough time in forum and you will gradually understand things.

I would like to thank you for your reply as you include some very valid points and I think it helps clear some things up. First to address your point about my overdramatic rhetoric and somewhat extreme views on either side. Yes I agree that my message comes across as quite dramatic, but it's more of my natural tone when I am passionate about something. This post is more to motivate and encourage rather than to inform and disprove. But yes I believe it's a good point to make that the "difficultly" isn't necessarily the problem, maybe it lies more in the motivation.


Yes I believe I could have better articulated my section about Newbies and the ability to have their voices heard. However, I do think that there are lot of biases here, simply because a lot of the Newbies that aren't spammers are simply never seen. Yes you do see those who contribute meaningful stuff and contribute, but how many others want to but don't get the chance? Whether I'm right in that regard, I have absolutely no idea but I think it's an interesting thought to entertain.


Thanks for sharing your experience this is really helpful, I have obviously not really experienced much of it. This helps me gain some perspective into what other people think on the topic. As for my thoughts on account sales, yes I was wrong to say that it's the only way. The point I was really trying to get across was that the difficultly in ranking up is ONE reason for account sales, disregarding the others.


Yes I do admit they are a bit overdramatic, but they are only really meant as a title for each section. And yes I am continuing what I think has not been discussed thoroughly or thoughtfully enough in the past. I continue because the past has failed. While the author wasn't my favorite, I think this quote helps summarize my point well:




While I don't wish to accuse anyone nor their reputation based on their signature, I certainly think that there could be more achieved through other means. You mentioned poorly managed signature campaigns, but I think a lot of them are quite mismanaged from the very beginning. The line between a poorly managed campaign and a good one seems thin at the very best.


I was simply stating that I understood again because I had stated previously in the post that I realize why these things were implemented, but I believe their purpose has been lost. And this is my main account, and while again that is quite irrelevant I realize that distrust is natural and I understand that. Also, you think I am not aware of the consequences my actions can have? It would be quite foolish for me to believe that anything good would come from this. But for any real change to take place there must be suffering, I mean what I say and I am more than willing to be held accountable. Whether it's just or not. In fact, it only strengthens my argument that people are resistant and change / quick to take matters into their own hands.

I hope to respond to more comments but this is taking me a lot more time and thought than I had expected in the first place. I will try to do 2-3 responses a day when time permits. I will try to be concise and possible, but I have a lot of thoughts I would like to share and a lot of opinions to think about.

Interesting to see a (reddit) account seller (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5132312.msg50622668#msg50622668) trying to improve the forum.

I think a lot of your stated problems can be traced back to problems with the trust system, specifically from the way trust is displayed by default (DT). My suspicion is that theymos wants to have DT setup in a way that he avoids being labeled a "publisher" in regards to liability for libel. If theymos tinkers with the DT system too much, or if it is moderated too heavily, the courts might rule he is not merely hosting content, but is "publishing" content. This matters because if someone is labeled a scammer via the DT system when they are not a scammer, they could sue theymos for libel, and would do so because he is easier to find, and has more assets than most people on DT (and in the forum).

No one obviously intentionally gets scammed, but there are improvements that can be made upon the marketplace. For starters, there could be merit/rank/activity requirements in order to either start a thread, to unlock a thread (more than x times), or to create a thread with self moderation. This would at least increase the effort a scammer would need to put into trying to scam.

I don't see signature campaigns going away anytime soon -- they bring in the page views that generate revenue for the forum. Signature campaigns ultimately are market based, and advertisers pay as little as they can to get the best deal for them. I would point out that when someone pays to have their ad displayed, they are paying to have their ad displayed to potentially 20 other ads on the same page.

Except for "Lack of new upgrades" everything you are complaining about can be traced back to the trust system.

To start I would like to thank you for your response and I really appreciate the clear formatting (section you are referring to + valid evidence + your claim).





As for misuse of trust I did make the argument that users taking matters into their own hands is wrong, but I do agree with the statement about there not being a better option. However, I think it's the automatic belief that nothing is going to be done that leads to the bystander bias I reference in a previous comment.

Regarding merit:
Yes I agree the extent to which I argued the lack of merit was a bit extreme. I do think that some members make an effort, however I think there could definitely be more success seen with better implementation.






Yes I do state in the newcomers section that the distrust mainly comes from the great number of accounts created with mal intent. And although I think that there is some help for newcomers, I feel they are given very little room for error in a lot of regards. I am not talking about the obvious spammers but more of the people who come across as unpopular / annoying.

As for your comment on ranks: yes I completely agree with you and I think there needs to be an attitude change. However I realize I wanted to mention that this attitude needs to not only come from higher members but also the newer members as well. I feel like new members expect to much and that is also a problem.

Again, thank you for the time you took to respond and the references you made. You seem to have an opinion that stands out from the rest and I commend you for voicing it.

EDIT: I am exhausted but will take the time to read and reply to as many comments as I can in the morning. I am trying to take as much time and consideration for each comment as I can. The goal of this thread is not only to inform others, but to inform myself as well.

Quite the lovely waste of time. It is called a system of trust not a system of trades.

This is what spreading false information does to others (like OP); but hey we need a system of trust that is only for trust-farming via pocket-change deals. ::)

This is just an internet forum where we talk about bitcoin whenever we have spare time from our normal jobs and lives, we don't need a trust system to know who trusts who for reasons other than trade and deals. After all, that was the main goal behind introducing the trust system, hence why it says "Warning: Trade with extreme caution!" when a negative rating is left.

You Lauda accuse the OP of spreading false information?  when you yourself lied on many occasions regarding the xcoin/dark instamine claiming you were on the launch and there was no instamine. This is actually scamming also since you were claiming this to entice investors under false premise and were a self confessed holder of that project . So yes if we have a trust system then if it should include those that lie for financial gain like yourself, then you should certainly have  a red tag. Please red tag lauda for telling lies for financial gain or unfair advantage. If you wish to see the evidence then you may request it and I will present it for the 100th time.

We will not permit observable liars and scammers to lecture and punish others for far lesser crimes.

Not to mention his extortion attempt
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1764757.0

I honestly don't know how this guy finessed his way onto dt

Yes it is worrying, is it not, that DT's, ALL OF THEM seem either dirty or complicit. Imagine the entire DT not 1 of them dares to or cares to take note of all the observable instances in the past histories of these untrustworthy scammers, liars and do the RIGHT THING.

This boards free speech is being crushed daily. You can not even present observable events without getting red trust.

Merit and DT are the very WORST things that have happened to bitcoin via this board.  The entire communities free speech is vulnerable to this garbage.

I am just waiting for these observably untrustworthy "gang" to pull off something large enough to get the attention of some real law enforcement, and it be clearly demonstrated that their TRUST positions were leveraged to enable such a large scale scam. Then the shit will hit the fan.

It is there in black and white, that this group is untrustworthy. The evidence has been presented many times. I hope all those historically sticking up for, and protecting them here, get the same punishment. I mean a  prison cell will be an upgrade from some of their living standards, but others will not be so keen.

All those including them into the trust system will be culpable.

There should be whistle blower rewards. Not punishment.

These dirty turds are always here to claim they require "the right" to give red trust for ANY REASON they see fit. They are terrified of being given a strict set of guidelines they can NOT abuse.

They can NOT change the past. It is all recorded and historically will be examined. Time is on our side.

You care a bit too much mate, everyone knows that the trust system is just a pissing contest so it isn't taken seriously anymore on the forum. Where free speech is concerned, bitcointalk is essentially a private company so essentially you don't have a right to the platform or anything like that. If users want to suppress your speech by utilizing the trust and merit systems then there's nothing you can do

I agree most members are consigned to this kind of attitude. So it is join them or be silenced by them.

Not us.

There is something we can do. It is called presenting the observable events that demonstrate they are clearly abusing the trust system to silence the truth regarding their previous scamming, lying and other untrustworthy behaviors and to game the entire system for their own selfish gain.

Then let bitcointalk announce you do not have the right to present observable events from the history of this board about DT members in the rules. DT members are allowed to scam, lie, extort, trust abuse and deploy double standards when ever they like and you will be cast as a scammer for mentioning those things. Put that in the rules, and we can just all abide by them, or move to a board where each member is treated fairly and equally.

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/57604534/you-look-like-you-need-a-hug.jpg

It's clear that theymos and the admins don't care, hence nothing will happen. Like everyone else, you'll eventually get tired of the forum politics and move over to reddit.

Unfortunately, you will again find Theymos in r/bitcoin.

PS: Nobody is forcing anybody to enter in forum politics. Some user have their own hidden agendas and it is natural to have conflict of interest.

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don't think you've been on many other forums if you think this forum is the worst for newbie discrimination and I've been on much worse ones where they treat Newbies like shit. In fact, I don't think there's that much hate against new users here, but here I think you're getting mere Newbies confused with spammers and shitposters. Nobody would care if someone signed up to this forum and made great posts but as you've already touched upon signature campaigns and ICO bounties drive people here in droves who don't even care about bitcoin in the slightest other than that they heard they can make some money here. When you have to read thousands of mindless comments purely being made for payment it's understandable why people are going to get annoyed with them specifically, but it's not strictly a newbie issue; it's just many of them happen to be newbies.

I've made the comparison before it's like people signing up to a Lamborghini forum when they don't like cars and can't even drive. Why would anyone sign up to a forum on a subject that they have no interest in? Well they generally don't. Unless that forum is bitcointalk and you can earn a living by posting drivel.


The people who tend to care about rank are usually those who only have financial interest in it in the first place. Most don't care about ranks and a truly great poster will breeze through them over time. Yes, it takes a long time but we've all had to go through that and ranks should mean something and should be earned, otherwise there's no point in them.


Both reporters and the staff that handle them do so on opinion and is purely subjective. Somebody might report something as spam and the staff may disagree. Staff here also don't get involved with scams but that doesn't mean the community shouldn't get involved with what they think is unjust. Should people turn a blind eye to scams and frauds just because they're not mods?


Sadly conspiracy theories are very common when you have a victim mentality or feel like you've been wronged somehow. It's much easier for as person to handle something if they create a story or narrative to make out like they're being persecuted for something when the reality of the situation is usually much more dull but the conspiracy theory is always the most exciting.




No it isn't. The problem with this forum is people get away with far too much with no repercussions at all. You are seemingly free to post rubbish across multiple accounts and you are left alone to do so. That doesn't mean you're not going to get treated like an idiot and people leaving you or anyone else negative feedback does not encroach on your freespeech. People seemingly love free speech until it punches them in the face and then they turn around and want that person banned, silenced or imprisoned somehow. That's pure hypocrisy If I've ever seen it. Freedom is good and people should be given as much as possible, but obviously there needs to be some restrictions because not everyone can play nice or by the rules.


I think they care but it's a combination of time, money and effort and balancing all that with as much freedom as possible which is ultimately what theymos seems to stand behind. Sadly everybody can't have it their own way and you're never going to appease everyone. Some people would prefer it if staff ruled with an iron fist whilst some think they should do nothing. Some think the way staff handle things currently is fine, but there is obviously always room for improvement.

Hilarious posts are fun. Full of "false" accusations, straw men and in protection of his scamming and lying friends he enables on to DT. A totally unbiased and objective moderator you can trust without question,  to cry if anyone suggests removing sigs from meta.

Please present the evidence of the "rubbish" we are posting?  I think you are confusing it with observable truth that demonstrates your friends who you enable on to the trust system are liars, scammers, and implicated in extortion schemes and trust abuse, account sales, racist trolling sig spamming under sock puppet accounts for extra btc crumbs.
If you can not produce the evidence that we are posting rubbish then you will delete it. If you refuse to delete. We will bring a thread for moderators making false accusations and spreading lies. Now produce the "rubbish" that we have posted please. Or remove your false allegations. You have freedom of speech, but  spreading false information means you can get called on that and given a title appropriate to those spreading false information. For a moderator, in a position of trust, then you need to be more accountable than just a new member for the things that you claim.

Did you mean to say rubbish hilarious? or did you mean to say we are spreading observably true information? that is on topic and relevant?

Can you see past your feeble straw men? where do you see me claiming people should have ANY punishment for free speech?  I think you are confusing this with spreading false information whilst being in positions of trust, like you just did. Unless you believe you can demonstrate that observable truths are "rubbish"?

I think we are saying that observable double standards, liars, scammers, extortionists and their supporters have NO place inside a trust system. That is not the same thing as stating people can not say whatever they like so long as they have compelling evidence or observable instances to demonstrate it is true, or can build a strong case that it is true. If they are not in a position of trust, then perhaps they can say whatever they like, with no come back, other than to get called to provide evidence to substantiate what they claim.

I hope you are going to validate, and provide evidence for your seemingly very biased and inaccurate post.

A disgrace of a moderator. Imagine publicly vouching for scammers, liars, trust abusers, probable extortionist, greedy sig spamming racist trolling sock puppets?  You will and should be held accountable if they leverage those positions to pull a huge scam.

What's the point in just removing sigs from Meta? What does that solve? Any posts that are made purely for payment would just be moved elsewhere so it solves nothing other than certain users not being able to get paid whilst arguing with unstable idiots like cryptohunter and their ilk. If you're going to remove sigs from Meta then why not everywhere else? I'm not against banning signature campaigns either. What I am against is removing them from certain sections just because you suggest it. Pointless other than entertaining whatever rubbish cryptohunter aka you comes out with.


See here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=2580400;sa=showPosts


I don't think you know the difference between opinion and fact (or 'observable truth' in this instance). 


I won't delete anything. Are you trying to tell me I'm not allowed to have an opinion on whether something is rubbish or not?


Go ahead. I don't care. You are free to create whatever threads you want but the thread will just end up like every other you create on this account and any others.


It is my opinion that you post rubbish. In my opinion I think you've probably got some mental issues that you should get help with, but I'm not a Doctor. Are you seriously trying to tell me my opinion is wrong? Is someone describing a piece of music or film as rubbish right or wrong?


Who exactly have a I vouched for? Anyone I have left feedback for or added to my trust list is done so because in my opinion I believe their feedbacks to generally carry weight or are on a whole good for the community, regardless of what petty beef they may or may not have got themselves in for.

The reason to have them removed from meta specifically, was explained previously in the thread that he first suggested it. Perhaps read that thread again. If you find it impossible to locate the specific reason. I will explain it to you.

You failed to present any direct examples of the  "rubbish" unless the observable truth or observable instances clearly demonstrating precisely what we said they demonstrate is " rubbish".

Find a specific example. How hard can it be, if all of our posts are "rubbish"?  I challenge you now to present one instance of incorrect information that we have presented. Come on present the example of "rubbish"?? I mean if you are now saying you term observable instances of lying, scamming, trust abuse, probable extortion is RUBBISH.... then you obviously have no place being a moderator do you?

Bring a SPECIFIC example of the incorrect rubbish we are spreading everywhere? or admit rubbish is just a word you use to cast doubt over observable events demonstrating clear wrong doing by those you include and enable on to DT.

You can not can you? you were simply casting false accusations again and have been called on it. Or your notion of RUBBISH is going to be fun to analyse in public.

Petty beef? you mean like observably lying, scamming, trust abusing, racist trolling sig spamming under puppet accounts for extra BTC crumbs? these kinds of petty beef?  yes, don't take those into account when placing people in positions of trust.

You surely are hilarious. Please get a mental health check yourself.

I think new traders use escrow,or should. Experienced traders deal with each other directly, but some still prefer to use escrow.

As for rank, well, I was (still am) in the military, and everyone knows a General ranks higher than a Lieutenant. Maybe it shouldn't have been called rank, but its quite similar enough.

In order to keep my posts more contained and less spammy, I am going to try and respond to several comments at once while addressing them each individually. Please understand that I am not pointing fingers or accusing anyone of anything, I am simply commenting on others opinions.


Thank you for your response. Yes I think that I definitely could have better articulated by ideas in hindsight but I think I got my point across. I plan on editing the OP once I hear some more feedback and have time to think about it. This wasn't meant to be a substantiated post by any means, as these are just my opinions. I did provide possible explanations for a lot of my points and although they are not at all conclusive, they hold some truth. I simply mentioned them as possible alternatives to the way people currently see things, to spark some more conversation around if things have to be this way etc.




My response to this is not only directed to you, but also to others who did the same thing in above posts. Yet another person who attempts to invalidate my claims by citing my post history, fantastic job. I think the point that a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding here is that validation is completely irrelevant here. Infact I state several times that my thoughts are opinions and have absolutely no real backing whatsoever. There is no clear solution to a lot of these issues and I don't pretend to know the answer.

Thank you for some of the insight into the DT system as I had never heard of the stuff you mention before. I didn't realize there were legal limitations to it, whether they are real or not. Ads would bring a lot more money to the forum if there were a direct relationship between the advertisers and the forum owners, instead of advertiser -> user. And you are right about these campaigns not going away anytime soon, but I think there are some things we can do to help curb the amount of them. I think that you are right that a lot of these things can be related back to the trust system and that is because a lot of these issues are intertwined and involve multiple systems. That is one of the reasons finding a solution is quite hard, as a lot of the time it's hard to even identify where the problem is originating from.


Thank you for calling my post a "lovely waste of time", I think that really contributes something to the conversation. Honestly, I don't really wish to reply to these comments prefaced like this in the future, but I have some things I would like to say here. First of all, yes I know the name of the system, thank you for pointing that out. But the question I would like to ask you is: What do you think the point of the trust system is? While this question is a bit of a trap because the real point has been lost, there still is some meaning in answering it. I believe the system as created in order to provide some insight into whether they person was worth dealing with. What the hell would be the point of a trust system outside the marketplace? You don't need to trust someone to have a conversation with them, there is no reason for it. The only time people really want to know if someone is trustworthy is if they are going to deal with them. I don't walk up to people on the street and ask them how trustworthy they are before saying "hi". However, if I am meeting someone selling something on craigslist, I am a bit more cautious. I feel this same logic applies to the trust system, it really doesn't apply outside the marketplace.

In your sarcastic response to my section on favoritism and entitlement:

Please, please read the section before you respond. It only makes everything more difficult as I am not really sure if you read anything I had to say, which I end up having to summarize again. I point out that these thoughts a lot of people seem to have about favoritism ARE infact wrong. Favoritism doesn't exist and people need to stop acting like it does anytime something happens or doesn't happen. I realize it's easy for others to think this when they see things happen, but a lot of the time there is not enough transparency on the issue. I am not really going to respond to your last remark as it would just be a waste of time, and I think you understand my message by now.


In regards to all the recent off-topic discussion and arguments that have inevitably come to this thread, please take it else where. I would like to keep the comments relevant, meaning they should relate to my OP in some way or another one of my posts. I am all for people voicing their opinion but let's keep this discussion mature, please.

Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act) gives protection to platforms such as this forum, Twitter and Reddit in that they are not held accountable for the posts of their users. This means if you break the law in one of your posts, theymos (the owner of the forum) will not be criminally liable for you breaking the law, and it also means if you defame someone in a post you write, theymos is not liable for libel (https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1153). The later is important because when two people are Joinly and Severely liable (https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/joint_and_several_liability) for a tort, the victim will go after the person with the most assets, and theymos (by all accounts) is very rich, and has a lot of assets.

There are limits to section 230, and there may be instances in which a platform such as the forum is actually a publisher.

There was a case called Enigma Software Group USA, LLC v. Bleeping Computer LLC (https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-york/nysdce/1:2016cv00057/451893/45) in which a software company was defamed on a forum by one of the forum's users who also happened to be what can be described as a moderator. The person who wrote the defamatory posts had "elevated" privileges that "normal" forum users did not. The district (trial) court found the forum user was acting as an agent of the forum due to an implied agency relationship (the fact he was a "volunteer" did not matter). This was only a trial court, not an appellate court, so the ruling is not case law (http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/case-law.html), but it does not appear the ruling was appealed. This case appears to have been settled (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/announcement/bleepingcomputer/press-release/), in which the forum agreed to remove the defamatory posts (possibly among other things, I am not sure).

The above case is not "apples to apples" to the DT system, but it is somewhat similar. Certain users have the ability to have a warning displayed on a person's profile, the ability to have comments displayed on a person's profile prominently, and other (sometimes overlapping) users have the ability to give out "points" that can be used to "vote" on who gets the above "trust" abilities. The algorithm to determine which users have the above abilities is chosen by the forum.

If rules in regards to trust are enforced, there could be a stronger argument that those on DT are acting as an agent of the forum, depending on the specifics as to how they are implemented. Although courts have ruled that platforms can have community guidelines as to what can be posted and still maintain cover under section 230.

Someone on DT being an agent of the forum is not, in itself a problem for the forum, except there are many on DT who are defaming other forum members left and right in recent years, which IS a problem.   

Even though the thread is kind of old, I want to share a few thoughts.

I have been here for around 2.5 months now - unfortunately its a fact that - especially when it comes to down to signature campaign stuff etc - people act like they were god - NO, this is no hate against any campaign manager for not letting me in or so - I dont care at all... Its just the attitude of many of these guys... If you just read through many of those posts... its obvious what I am saying, arrogant behaviour. And what for? $10 a week? $20? Wow... Lord of the ***

On the other side I do agree that there are tons of bot-like person here who are flooding the forum with spam - actually I have complained several times about this myself! And they are pissing me off as well.

I am happy to say that in the German forums everything is great though - the guys, no matter what rank, are extremely helpful and friendly! Thanks for that if any of you is reading this!

@OP Great thread!

Some of those signature campaign managers do end up having to filter through a lot of bullshit, but it is likely NOT good to get too personally offended by it.  You are correct that the incentives to join are not going to be too much, but if the signature campaign is paying in bitcoin, and the participant is just continuing to hold his payout, the amount of dollar value can really add up in the future, which will definitely inspire some folks to participate, especially from low income locations.

Pretty much I stopped participating in signature campaigns in early 2018 because I just did not want the ongoing hassle.  I had acquired more than 3 bitcoins in about 2 years from the ones that I was in.. but still, when the BTC price went shooting up, I just began to think that my BTC holdings were way more valuable than trying to chase after more.. so that is kind of a personal choice based on circumstances.

Regarding your other points, there are a lot of good members and helpful threads if you participate long enough then you will see it.  Sometimes it takes a few years to get known by other members, which does help if you frequent certain threads and attempt to interact by not just receiving but providing help to other members from time to time too.. which might not be any skin off your back if you are just sharing your experiences and opinions and writing out your experiential based thoughts.

Users in the forum, and participants in campaigns have to do their works well in order to help to build up good reputation for the forum, for companies that hire them with their signatures.
If the forum damaged by tons of shitposts due to signature, theymos will destroy all signatures.
If companies don't get benefits from their participants because shitposts don't catch attention of readers, and don't have effects for companies (adverse effects, in some cases); companies will stop running their campaigns after short time.
I still don't know why you decided like that, because you are obviously a strong poster, so you can keep posting, to clean up the forum, to help other forum users, and still receiving some bitcoins from reputable campaigns. Why not? If you want to give open slot for others, appreciated your kindness.

I believe that in total, I was a part of 3 signature campaigns, and at first, I thought that it was so great to get paid for activities that I was already doing (posting that is), but after a while, the various hassles did not seem worth it to me, anymore...  I felt that sometimes, I was worrying too much about getting paid properly and sometimes some of the controversy around some signature campaigns or even having to spend some additional time to follow some of the changes in the campaign or restrictions that they might impose regarding posting. The ones that I was in did not tend to have too many quantity posting restrictions, but I have seen that some current signature campaigns have those, too.    But I think that the sum of the matter is that I just did not want anyone second-guessing the contents of appropriateness of any of my posts, and there does tend to be a bit of politics with any contractual relationship like that or even the impression that I might leave as if I am independent in my thinking or not.  

I am not opposed to other members getting involved in signature campaigns because it can be a kind of easy money if you are going to be posting anyhow, then it might just work better for some of the other members as compared with how my own feelings about my involvement evolved.

That's a very good point, I felt stressed even looking at the campaign requirements. Some of them are crazy, requiring a certain number of posts all above minimum character length + certain sections, etc. It seems like such a headache to me trying to keep track of all of that. I think for some people it's not really an issue but I don't like being forced to post in sections that I don't ever read, etc. I definitely agree with you that having a signature does bring more "scrutiny" to your posts and more people tend to question your content. It also seems like a lot of campaigns are somewhat "predatory" in their requirements and changes without proper notice + extremely convoluted guidelines which I definitely do not want to mess with. I've never been in a campaign so I can't really comment personally on the effects, but I've definitely seen a lot of the business. For me at least, I am hear because I enjoy learning and posting and I feel like being part of a campaign would make it feel like a "job" to me. I am here because I want to be, not because I need to meet a requirement. Sometimes I just like to take a break and it's nice not having any worries.

Just my thoughts, mainly wanted to highlight on some aspects I didn't outline before such as the "predatory behavior" signature campaigns have and the hassle they can become (making it feel like a job, etc.). There have been some more guidelines added for campaigns, but hopefully more will come to combat the new issues.

I am sure that participation in a signature campaign could go either way, especially if members already feel like the signature campaign does not really change what they were doing anyhow, and at first, it felt to me that I was not really changing very much, but after a while the signature campaigns kind of began to draw me down....

And of course, when BTC prices went shooting way up, I felt less compelled to stack some extra sats (and perhaps not being worth it to me).

When I first started participating in the forum, for a few years, I mostly only participated in the wall observer thread, which has largely been a bitcoin focused thread.  Most of the time, I did not give two shits about the vast majority of other coins or even getting caught up in forum politics, but the longer that any member participates in the forum the more that s/he could get drug into other threads or even some of forum's politics and even learning about who some of the BIG players in forum politics are.

But yeah, the self-ish motive for most of my involvement in this forum has been to mostly concentrate my efforts on sharing information related to bitcoin.

Actually, there may be some members who actually believe that they want to get involved in signature campaigns, partly because until you reach a certain level of rank, you are largely excluded from a vast majority of signature campaigns, yet after you participate in signature campaigns for a while, you might realize, as efialtis was saying in his earlier post, that the signature campaigns might be way more work than they are worth (and sure some of the managers are a bit arrogant and not very gracious with their power.. which yeah starts to feel like a real job rather than a hobby and maybe all for measly peasly amounts of money or that sometimes they are changing their pay rates, too.. which can feel like it is ungrateful to the efforts of the signature campaign participants).

It depends on the campaign you're talking about, there are some renowned bounty managers in the forum like yahoo and hamphuz, and I think they do their job pretty well, without acting like "gods".
The thing is most times people usually do things the wrong way, for example advertising when a slot isn't open, or answering questions meant for the bounty managers, that can lead to them warning against such, and I doubt it's wrong

You'll need to explicitly tell us the characters you dislike in the managers you've come across.
And another thing is selecting new members into campaigns, some(bounty managers)do it by merits, others frequency of posting and of course quality, it varies, based on the managers choice.

Are you saying that bounty managers and signature campaign managers are the same thing?  Maybe the kinds of managers overlap in the sense that some managers will take part in managing more than one kind of forum activity, but I thought that bounty managers and signature campaign mangers were the managers of different kinds of activities that were going on in the forum?

I have never engaged in any kinds of bounty hunting, and that seems like a bit of a crazy and money chasing activity to me, so I was considering the activities of signature campaigns to be different from the activities of bounty hunting, for some reason.

They are different, I think.

First, they are different in the environment in which they run.

• Signature campaigns: totally run in the forum.
• Bounty campaigns: partially run in the forum (signature), but others run beyond the forum (on Telegram, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, Medium, and so forth).

Second, fund allocation to run campaigns

• Signature campaigns: companies mostly have to allocate funds to do it. Just most of them, because scam projects can run signature campaigns with their shit coins from premined, instamined coins.
• Bounties: companies use their free money (tokens) to do it

Lastly, payment days

• Signature campaigns: most of them have nearly exact pay days. Each week, or each month.
• Bounties: Most of them delay their pay days or reject to pay at the ends. That depends on results of their crowdsales

Thanks for the description and attempting to make some kind of a distinguishing outline.

I feel dirty just reading that, and surely the bounties sound a bit worse in terms of scumminess, chasing around the paltry money, and sometimes not getting paid, but neither of them come off as exactly appealing in terms of wanting to be associated when described like that (which is actually an attempted factual overview, no?). 

Bump. Should be stickied.

Love this post, you spoke the mind of many in terms bounty campaigns, after all the stress bounty hunters are payed in little amount. Just because someone is a newbie doesn't mean he lacks experience about bitcoin. Lest we all forget the main motive why we are here, to make bitcoin known and acceptable by all

The forum is not any sort of "body" meant to fight for the rights of bounty hunters, the reward payed for bounty campaign differs, some pay more than the others as rank also plays a part in the amount gotten, if you do not like the amount you get on your bounty, you either try ranking up or changing(advertising) to a bounty that pays higher.

There is no such attack against newbies, the ones who have the knowledge of bitcoin as you claim are making their efforts stand out on the forum and are ranking up in the process.

Our main motive here is to discuss about the bitcoin