Bitcoin Forum

Even $100,000 would kill it.  If 1 sat (or even 100 sat) == $1 then the fees would grind the system to a halt.  The fees would be so high relative to the amount sent, that it wouldn't be worth it.  From an investment perspective 1 sat==1$ is a nice round number.  From a users perspective, only being able to buy things divisible by 1$ is crap. 

I think you have the numbers wrong. There are 100,000,000 satoshis in 1 BTC. That means BTC would need to hit $100,000,000 in order for 1 SAT to = $1.

It won't reach that Top .. ever.. so don't worry:) :D

It would put BTC's final MC at $2,100,000,000,000,000 (2.1 Quadrillion Dollars) which is like 25 times more than the total estimated amount of money in the world...

Not sure we need to worry about this yet.

As far as I know, with 2nd layer technologies, you can pretty much have lower denominations than a satoshi. So there's that. It's going to be very likely that pretty much everyone is going to use 2nd layer technologies for daily transactions anyway(in the future, that is), while using the main-chain for larger settlement transfers.

A bit too early that's for sure.  There are smart people working on Bitcoin. Whatever problems arise, potential solutions will come.

when bitcoin price was below $1 the transaction fees were 0.01-0.001 bitcoin. then it was changed and the fees at some point were fixed at 0.0001 bitcoin and then it was again changed and the fees were 1 satoshi/byte.

with higher price the fee level will also decrease and you can start paying 0.5 satoshi/byte instead of 1 and lower as we go higher in price.

Interesting that when the price is low everybody fears that the miners will not have enough revenue, so Bitcoin will die.

Now the high price kills Bitcoin? Just because some just play around with a couple of Satoshi they want to send and it's expensive? Well, there's the option to consolidate the inputs, also for so small amounts (even if they may mean a dollar or two) maybe it would worth thinking twice if a transfer is really needed.

And, also for small amounts, there's LN, with much lower fees, isn't it?

It's not practical to use bitcoin with that kind of fee, maybe that time a Lightning Network will be very popular.
Using blockchain with high transaction fee is only good for huge transaction but to get a massive adoption, we want huge numbers of small money coming in.

You can still further divide satoshis into an even lower number if it comes to that, and for sure it will take a long time before we even reached that figure, ever. For now, third-party solutions for network confirmations are around, but even that would be pretty detrimental for the fate of the miners if most people would choose to get their transactions off-chain. But then again, there'd be solutions to that if it ever comes to the said scenario, just like all the number of problems laid bare in front of us in the days.

Don't put too much period on that because we don't know the future yet, bitcoin is good to surprise all those haters. I know it can't happen for the short term but who knows the moment we welcome the two decades of bitcoin with the most expensive price ever.  :D


The excitement are on because the price are pumping, but if we saw another bear after this uptrend we might here news about dying bitcoin. This is normal in market prediction, we can go as high as we think in time.

if that happends im more afraid of the massive sell off , its going to push us down in a bear market once again, only if it grows slow and steady and not flying up this wont happend.

So it'll become difficult to move around... like bars of gold.   

OP's statement is based on his assumption that bitcoin doesn't change at all. but the truth is that bitcoin of today is not like the bitcoin of early days and it won't be the same in a couple of years too. the fundamentals stay the same but the details change to match the need of that time and keep the network healthy.

As long as we look at Bitcoin for $, we will always be the loser. We should look at how Bitcoin integrates into our lives rather than USD value. Because the USD value sometimes increases and sometimes falls. However, Bitcoin and Blockchain continue to integrate into our lives day by day.

Correct. The base unit in Lightning is already a millisatoshi (msat), or 0.001 of a satoshi. So even if one satoshi = $1 (which as pointed out above, would result in the marketcap of bitcoin being around 25 times higher than the amount of broad money in the entire world), you would still be able to divide down to the equivalent of 0.1 of a cent (which is obviously more divisible than fiat). And this is without even mentioning that fees on Lightning are generally a fraction of what they on chain.

The beauty of Bitcoin is that it is self adjusting, and it reacts to market forces. This means that it will never die. It won't even die when all of the available miners' rewards have been allocated. The higher the price, the more stable it will become in my opinion.

Lightning network can be used as an option that can decorate bitcoin transactions. but for small networks there is no need to do this because don't think because of costs

lets not get carried away though. we still have a very long way to go before we can even begin to think about splitting bitcoin into units smaller than 1 Satoshi.
so far the smallest regular transaction paying the smallest fee is paying a total of a little less than 200 satoshi which is still 200 times more than the smallest unit which means we have 200 units to go before we reach the base unit.

Bitcoin... dead? I wonder where(and how many times) I've seen this before.. https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-obituaries/

When Bitcoin has been invented in 2010, the intent was that the price of 1 Satoshi will be 1 USD somewhere in 2040 to 2070.
This will happen in approx 30 years from now, and the price of 1 Bitcoin will be approx 100 000 000 USD (that is 100 million USD).

1 000 000 would not kill the bitcoin, it is very probable that the price of 1 Bitcoin somewhere in 2023 will be 500 000 to 700 000 USD.

This will be the next bitcoin 20x price increase (in 2023), and very probable the next increase after this (30x) will happen in 2030.
Thus in 2030 it is very probable that the price of 1 bitcoin will be approx 10 000 000 USD/1 Bitcoin.

Don't worry it won't happen these days and we could still enjoy the bullishness of it until we get old. Let them predict as much as they can since it will worry them if they keep thinking about the things that's not going to happen yet. And if Bitcoin even touches $100k that shouldn't be a problem since we already have whales who hold more than that, did you see any problem of it besides of the transaction fees?

We are a long way away from $1,000,000 per coin. Even $100,000 per coin may take many years, if it happens at all. Now lets imagine a scenario in which the exchange rate of BTC rises to $100K. The market cap will be somewhere in the vicinity of $2 trillion and the real market cap (i.e after deducting the "lost" coins) will be somewhere between $1.6 trillion and $1.7 trillion.

Do you really think that the governments around the world would allow this to happen? They will never allow a decentralized currency to become the third largest one in terms of circulation volume.

And the second issue is with BTC mining. Right now cryptocurrency mining uses as much as 2% of the total electricity generation in the world. If the prices rise to $100K (i.e by 10x), then this proportion can rise to 20%. Do you think that this is viable?

Note that I was just talking about the $100K scenario. I didn't even considered one where BTC costs $1 million apiece.

you are bad at math, can't take you seriously.

Bitcoin is not going to be a means of exchange

It is more and more becoming a store of value (sort of "digital gold", as they say). Real physical gold is a lot more expensive in terms of transaction costs (actually, it is a real pain in the ass to move it around in any significant amounts), but does that make it irrelevant or just cheap (not even speaking of killing it)? Not in the least, apparently. So why should Bitcoin be different in this regard? The point to take away from this is, transaction costs are not very important for a store of value. Use altcoins if you need to minimize your transaction costs

Despite all of us brushing this off like its nothing, and nonsense this was discussed at length a few years ago, and was a legitimate concern. Obviously, there's ways around it, and it appears that the majority of Bitcoin users are now aware of this fact. I still personally believe that Bitcoin isn't really meant for a micro transaction currency, and will be used mostly for moving high amounts eventually.

I believe it was created by bankers as an experimental project. The idea was to tap the wealth of talent available in the "open source" communities, and to use this to finalise their ideas for the replacement of the debt laden fiat systems. The high transaction confirmation times, and the cap on the issued coins meant it would never become a volume service for daily transactions. They must be really pleased with the way it is providing them with a new source of massive wealth, as they remove coins from the available pools. They don't need to try to regulate Bitcoin, they just need to own most of the coins.

Why would that kill Bitcoin?
I find it a perfect scenario to make Bitcoin as a digital asset that people will store value in it. The same as Gold is right now.
You just have to see it from another perspective. There are many use cases that bitcoin can cover.

If we would see such a price like that in the future others might start to hate Bitcoin because they can't make transactions whenever they like but it's not going to kill Bitcoin. It would only encourage a lot of users to do their transactions off chain and Welsh is right, many know this problem and because of it there's some that are starting to provide this kind of feature from popular exchanges, online wallets and casinos.

With such great prospects that say Almost all users of cryptocurrency, I am already thinking of mining and building my own Bitcoin mining farm.  Even today, the profitability of mining has doubled, and what will happen if Bitcoin really reaches 1,000,000 dollars?

it is only John Macafee who can dream of such a value of bitcoin, we understand that bitcoin will not cost such an amount, it is what should be the capitalization, an unthinkable amount.

it is questionable could BTC reach that value, it is another 100x rise, which has low probability, dough it is possible
but, i do not see BTC as highest ranking coin in the future, so in my view, it is hard to expect BTC on 1mUSD value, or even close

Actually, 1sat would be $0.001. and not $1 as you pointed out and 100sat would be $0.1 which is yet still very okay and reasonable when bitcoin hits $100k. And this will reach it in the future as more users and adoption comes.

Entirely depends on your goals. I haven't spent any Bitcoin in a very long time now, and mainly hoard it. I've continued to invest in it, but I'm by no means a trader. I believe Bitcoin to be more than something we hope will reach x amount and cash out for your fiat currency. The only thing I consider more valuable at this present moment is real estate just because I can currently use that for what I want too. Whereas Bitcoin still has its limitations in the modern world.

Hmm , This is a very interesting observation.
This should just be a challenge to developers and not really a problem. I think it is something that can be solved easywith minor adjustment to the monetary unit

Meet too, OP shouldn't worry about the price of Bitcoin killing Bitcoin itself. We shouldn't expect much lower fees whenever there's a small transaction. I hope thee price of Bitcoin surge  more unexpectedly. All we need is that, we should wait for the surge before checking.

This is the exact point. We get into Bitcoin in part as an investment. The miners know this, so they raise the fees to control the price of Bitcoin, along with increasing their profits.

What? I thought Bitcoin was supposed to be decentralized. We don't need miners' fees at all. Miners mine, and get the bitcoins they mine. If that isn't enough profit for them, we need to forget bitcoin altogether, and let them sit with their stupid, worthless bitcoins, 'cause nobody will buy them.

All we are doing is gambling that this time the miners won't raise their fees like they did at the end of 2017 and the beginning of 2018. We forget, so we are at it again... letting the miners lure us into purchasing a bunch of bitcoins that they can quickly make worthless by raising fees.

There are still loads of investors out their who lost their shirts - life savings, the house, their business, etc. - because they thought that an investment in Bitcoin was worth something... in 2017. They have a little hope, now, with the new Bitcoin movement, that they will get their money back. But all the miners are doing is waiting to raise fees again.

Personally, I think it is time to sue the miners. I mean, if they sit on their hoard and don't sell, they won't be able to pay their electric bills for the mining. So, why screw the little guy, and make bitcoin into the "centralized" thing that Satoshi was trying to get away from?

If they do it again, we need to sue the pants off them. After all, they are wrecking the lives of a whole bunch of us when they mess with our investment like that.

8)

I don't think it is a good idea to think about it right now. Things will change after a few weeks of increasing, there will be downtrend for sure but one thing I am sure about, they will make a way just to make things right. Developers will surely make a solution into it.
Bitcoin can probably hit that value but it will take a very long time for sure even the bulls will not stop. We are still in the way of getting the all time high value of it so it is not good idea to think about that problem right now.

Why would there be a downtrend? I mean, really why?

When investments go up freely, without regulation, and anybody can easily get on board with Electrum if nothing else, once they hear from their friends that Bitcoin is going wild, fear of loss will make them get their BTC wallet.
The only thing stopping this will be if Bitcoin is regulated in some way.

Will all the results of this be good? Probably not. But the fiat banking Ponzi is near collapse, anyway. All that Bitcoin might do is speed it up a little... which is good, because the collapse won't be as bad if it happens this year, as what it will be if it happens next year.

8)

Satoshi Nakamoto could pay 5% of USA debt if bitcoin hit that price, just make the math, BTC1M * $1M


while USA debt is 22,400,000,000,000

Source: https://www.usdebtclock.org/  ;D

The more expensive the price of bitcoin, the more expensive the fee will be, as we eat at a restaurant spending $ 100, then the tax will feel great. So this is very reasonable.

One of my transactions have been pending for the last 24+ hours and sometimes it really gets frustrating. I agree that for transferring large amounts, Bitcoin is very effective. But more than 99% of the users are not ultra-rich and they normally transfer coins worth $100 or even less. If they have to pay 5% or 10% of the total amount as the transaction fee, then it won't do much good to the future acceptability and adoption of Bitcoin.

Surely there will be a solution that will be used by most people, in fact there is ease to reduce your shipping costs, especially we change to make ETH or other coins and of course it will reduce shipping costs or fees when you pay for something in the restaurant, indeed many pros and counter when there is a prediction that says it will break at 1 million dollars in the price of bitcoin, at least we can assume that there are many ways to avoid withdrawal fees or shipping costs that will be more expensive ...

don't worry ;)https://goldcup.io/ru/pages/igrovye-avtomaty-cosmolot

That's a very big price to reach, reaching such a value can be considered the beginning for the destruction of bitcoin. Even now governments stand against bitcoin for several reasons, in specific they aren't able to keep it under their control. When the value grows beyond the level automatically government governments will unite hands to keep it away from common usage which will surely lead to destruction.

Thats true.More higher the bitcoin goes more higher the fees will go.Not only that if bitcoin reach 100000 do you think they keep their bitcoin and waited? I don't think so.Also whales will sell their bitcoin.No more more HODL.Everyone will collect their money and leave.Bitcoin will be useless any more.Market will crash to the ground also that will be end of other cryptos too

Sorry , just because btc makes some adjustments like fewer miners,
does not mean it can't die.

If it ever reaches the point that it becomes unprofitable for a extended length of time ,
where anyone mining it goes bankrupt, then game over.

The cost to maintain/secure BTC network is still insane compared to more energy efficient coins.
As long as BTC maintains a PoW design, it's has a finite product cycle.  IMO.

I think this is very possible. People may not think it will be able to reach $100,000 or even close this this number but if you look at the charts, you can see that every time Bitcoin dropped by 85%, it would go up and exceed its previous ATH. It may not happen at the exact dates but I think it will happen. People would fomo in bitcoin as good news lands bringing the price up.

Charts data tell us about investor behaviour and their behaviour tend to be similar each time. Having said that, everything are just predictions and no one can be 100% sure that this will happen. History doesn't always repeat itself but following historical trends is better than just making random predictions.

Most likely there would be people still holding even if it goes over $100,000. When Bitcoin was at its high last time there's people that held and even shared their losses, the same thing goes at a higher price. If there's a big run again many would sell their coins but not to the point where it would die. Imo it'll be similar to how low the price was last year.

You are using your imaginative mind too hard. Here it is: Bitcoin going back to 1$ would definitely kill Bitcoin, even 100$.

I do not actually think that long-term in terms of Bitcoin's price. Plus, even if Bitcoin would reach $1,000,000, 1 sat is still less than a dollar.

Well, we'll cross the bridge when we get there. Oh no, wait, we definitely cannot arrive at such bridge. We are already walking dead by that time!  ;D

You have a point. I do think that this will be the downfall of bitcoin's image in investors. A lot of investors does not support the big fee in transactions especially those traders. I suppose that we do really need the developed LN and segwit that time. It might help.

Bitcoin $1,000,000 is very plausible in the coming decades. That would put its total market cap, once all coins are minted, at 21M * 1M = $21T which should be on par with the total supply of US dollars.

The guy who said "21 quadrillion" can't do math. 12 zeros is a trillion, not a quadrillion.

Nobody said 21 quadrillion.

The figure that was mentioned was 2.1 quadrillion, which was in response to the claim that 1 sat = 1 dollar, in which case the calculation is 21M bitcoins * 100M satoshi per bitcoin, which is indeed 2.1 quadrillion dollars. This figure could only be reached if either bitcoin becomes the singular global currency, or the dollar hyperinflates and collapses.

I think even $50,000-$100,000 it would kill bitcoin. I mean if people filled their bags with bitcoin now while it is still low, they will surely sell it with 5x-10x the price.

The average person in the world can't afford 1 bitcoin.  It is a big mental barrier that 1 "coin" is worth over ten thousand dollars since mbtc and other smaller denominations are yet to receive mass adoption.  The fees are worrying but if that is someone's main concern there are many altcoins to choose from.

Lol even till our generation gone 1sat=1$ won’t happen because bitcoin need to first reach a hundred million value and that won’t happen until the end of the world lol that’s a total BS idea

Absolutely mate,it is very impossible that every people in the world can even hold 1btc each and also impossible because bitcoin has limited volume

Yes, that is why people now are buying a large amount of bitcoin because they don't want to miss the chance to sell it 5 times from the buy price. They want to make a big profit of bitcoin later, and they can wait for a while because they know, and they believe that bitcoin will increase higher in the future. But I cannot imagine if bitcoin price will rise and hit $1,000,000, what will happen later, and that is a big mystery for us.

But this fixed price is only a fee withdraw from a certain exchange, besides the fee also changes. If it is a fixed fee for all, then it is certain that the Miner will also suffer a loss. Fixed only applied to exchange, but let the miners decide

I do economically and technically not see how any price would kill Bitcoin

The national debt is a farce. Nobody is associated with it except government. If government and the banks collapse, people will still go on just as they have been. Talk that the national debt is a debt of the people to ... whom... is just talk that keeps the banking system going.

When the collapse comes, bitcoiners might be way out ahead of everyone else, because, bitcoin won't collapse when the banks and government do.

8)

not only on an exchange but there are some wallets that offers fix fees  . gambling sites also offer fix fees but overall that still depends on the price of the coin  .  miners wont loose because they can still decide if they will mine your transaction or not but most of the time they will only prioritize transaction with a high fees .


thats too much of a fee  . when btc is below 1usd the fee should be around 0.00000001 or lower but now that btc is expensive  , most fees are set to 0.0001 and higher depending if on its priority   . high priority transaction cost more   .  mid priority cost medium and slow is the cheapest but it can take a long time  .

What a crock of shit...

Bitcoin is divisible far far far beyond a Satoshi.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Help:FAQ#How_divisible_are_bitcoins.3F

"How divisible are bitcoins?
A bitcoin can be divided down to 8 decimal places. Therefore, 0.00000001 BTC is the smallest amount that can be handled in a transaction. If necessary, the protocol and related software can be modified to handle even smaller amounts."

lol, $20k bitcoin will kill bitcoin because $20k bitcoin already did. Bitcoin will never reach $20k again, and certainly won't ever sustain prices where we're at now over the long term, much less above $20k.

That's what people said about bitcoin reaching $1000 back in the day, I'm sure.  And then there were probably people swearing bitcoin would never reach $10k....then it did.  So you never know. 

But as to OP's point, I've often wondered about this myself--if the price rises high enough, it might be cost prohibitive to actually send bitcoin.  Maybe if you were sending huge amounts it might be worth it, but there's no way anyone would be foolish enough to send either small amounts (like those for purchases) or dust.  I would imagine at that point there would be no more faucets, and the number of people actually using bitcoin for things would drop off a cliff.  But who knows.  Not me, I'm just thinking out loud here.

My guess is that if btc went to those moon prices that we never dreamed possible, people would start using altcoins in a big way--and there certainly are enough of them to choose from.

Don't stress out yourself yet we wont even reach up those numbers.Okay lets presume that we are already into these levels.
Fees wont really be a big thing as long the network isn't congested.No matter what would be the price if the network isn't busy then fees would
really be just still on minimal state.

Bitcoin price is not limited by cost of the fee but by energy to secure network. Right now we spend less then a percent to secure Bitcoin network. With 20 times higher price there will be 10% of all energy used.  Increase of energy price will definitively help. And I dont believe we will ever again have this cheap energy as of now.

Reading through this thread just convinces me even more that the vast majority of today's bitcoin holders will have sold by the time the price crosses $100k. By the time it crosses $1m/btc, many will have hanged themselves, and many more will have panic bought back as the value of fiat collapses - their gained fiat acquiring but a fraction of the bitcoin they once held.
And all because they believed it impossible.