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Other => Meta => Topic started by: Loque on August 14, 2019, 05:28:31 PM



Title: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Loque on August 14, 2019, 05:28:31 PM
Tor users can't explore the forum. It is a bit incongruous cause of the nature of the forum.
The problem is recaptcha and the IP blocker.
Yes there are a lot of spammer ready to advertise shit. But users that wanna protect their privacy can't enjoy Tor here.

A suggestion can be to moderate the first 5 posts of each users, enough to understand if a new registered user is a bot or not.
If so, recaptcha can be removed allowing everyone browse the forum with Tor.


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Royse777 on August 14, 2019, 05:29:53 PM
Instead of using the TOR browser directly use it with your Firefox browser. The hassle is less.

Go to about:preferences
scroll down and find the following section

https://i.imgur.com/sgz1SEn.png

Click Settings

https://i.imgur.com/Fk9GITL.png

Check manual proxy configuration.

Socks host: 127.0.0.1
Port: 9150
Scroll down

https://i.imgur.com/vNx3hgl.png

Check Enable DNS over HTTPS

Then click the OK button.

Once you done it, your firefox will be configured to use TOR connection. Remember you will need to keep the TOR browser open to browse using Firefox.

Good luck.



Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: actmyname on August 14, 2019, 05:32:07 PM
A suggestion can be to moderate the first 5 posts of each users, enough to understand if a new registered user is a bot or not.
If so, recaptcha can be removed allowing everyone browse the forum with Tor.
Average registrations per day: 401.57
5 * 401.57 = 2007.85

Moderators still have not gone through all of my 2000 reports from a few days ago.
There is a no-captcha link available for signing into specifically your account: https://bitcointalk.org/captcha_code.php. As for the IP block (or evil points) that penalizes banned users.


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Loque on August 14, 2019, 05:33:18 PM
@Royse777 This bypass the captcha problem but let to be pleased of the same Tor privacy level?

@actmyname thanks I didn't know of the no-captcha login link! The problem is that my real IP is now recorded in the database. Only future logins are Torred!


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Royse777 on August 14, 2019, 05:38:23 PM
@Royse777 This bypass the captcha problem but let to be pleased of the same Tor privacy level?
I updated my last post with the instruction.

You still need to face the captcha but it less irritating than the direct TOR browser. Yeah, you get the same privacy level. It's just different browser. You are in fact using the same TOR connection instead of the regular connection you have.


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Loque on August 14, 2019, 05:40:52 PM
Thank you for the tip, I was unaware of that.
Gonna test it soon.


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: ETFbitcoin on August 14, 2019, 06:07:02 PM
@actmyname thanks I didn't know of the no-captcha login link! The problem is that my real IP is now recorded in the database. Only future logins are Torred!

Almost all internet website logs your IP nowadays. No-captcha still require you to login without it once to gen no-captcha login link.

Instead of using the TOR browser directly use it with your Firefox browser. The hassle is less.

--snip--

Once you done it, your firefox will be configured to use TOR connection. Remember you will need to keep the TOR browser open to browse using Firefox.

It's horrible suggestion, Firefox default setting heavily leaks many information including unique browser fingerprint and  your real IP address (due to WebRTC feature).
You need to make lots of tweak even to reach the problem, even so you'd have unique configuration which could   be used to deanonymize you.

Besides, you don't need to open Tor Browser to use Tor connection. Just download Tor and enable Tor service on startup.

Code:
sudo systemctl start tor # start tor service
sudo systemctl enable tor # start tor service on boot


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: theymos on August 14, 2019, 06:33:12 PM
@actmyname thanks I didn't know of the no-captcha login link! The problem is that my real IP is now recorded in the database. Only future logins are Torred!

You can login via Tor. I just tried it and it worked on the first attempt, though it took a couple of minutes to solve the captcha. You login once, get the captcha code, and then never have to deal with a captcha again: all via Tor.

Enable limited retention in your settings (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;sa=account).


The main issue with Tor Browser here is that it doesn't save cookies between restarts, so Cloudflare and Recaptcha treat you as a completely unknown person each time. I think that it's sufficient to use Tor Browser but in its settings disable "always use private browsing mode". This definitely does impact your privacy, though. You'd ideally want a different browser instance (or profile, if Tor Browser supports it) for each site where you want this disabled.


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Loque on August 14, 2019, 07:27:15 PM
The server and the software of this forum prune IP of users sometimes?


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: BitCryptex on August 14, 2019, 07:34:28 PM
The server and the software of this forum prune IP of users sometimes?

Take a look at the bottom of this page (https://bitcointalk.org/privacy.php). You can find the default values there which apply before you limit IP retention in your settings as theymos has already mentioned.


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Loque on August 15, 2019, 12:14:05 AM
lol I enabled it but it is valid from current login only.
It will store atleast for three months but geo location for 6 years. :D


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Sutters Mill on August 15, 2019, 08:59:08 AM
Why do you need to use tor when there are plenty of other faster options? If you want to protect your privacy and remain anonymous then there are other ways to do it. Use a proxy that doesn't keep logs, or use the internet on a pay as you go burner phone. Get a new sim card or even phone every-time your data runs out. You can even combine them and use a proxy over the burner phone. Probably overkill though just to browse a forum.

I doubt most bots use tor as it's very impractical. Tor is probably just abused by a lot of people like proxies are hence why the forum restricts it.


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: LoyceV on August 15, 2019, 10:09:58 AM
Use a proxy that doesn't keep logs
With a proxy or VPN you always have to trust a third party. They can say they don't keep logs, but you can never be sure.

Quote
or use the internet on a pay as you go burner phone.
I doubt that's faster than Tor. It's also more expensive and less convenient.

Quote
Get a new sim card or even phone every-time your data runs out.
Most people can't afford to use phones as disposables.

Quote
I doubt most bots use tor as it's very impractical. Tor is probably just abused by a lot of people like proxies are hence why the forum restricts it.
The forum doesn't restrict Tor users. Google recaptcha "Easy on Humans, Hard on Bots (https://www.google.com/recaptcha/intro/v3.html)" becomes very difficult when it's used a lot on the same IP (and there are probably other criteria).
Even some normal websites (for instance banks) now make me click recaptcha, and it's a terrible waste of time. Bots don't care, I do.

it took a couple of minutes to solve the captcha
While bots get better at it, I can't even imagine what they'll be like in a few years. Half an hour of clicking to prove you're human?


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Sutters Mill on August 15, 2019, 10:51:52 AM
Use a proxy that doesn't keep logs
With a proxy or VPN you always have to trust a third party. They can say they don't keep logs, but you can never be sure.

There are ones that are very open about what logs they keep and have been independently verified

https://nordvpn.com/blog/nordvpn-audit/

I'm not recommending them over any other but they're the one that come to mind. Regardless, if you didn't want to use a vpn just go with the burner option.

Quote
or use the internet on a pay as you go burner phone.
I doubt that's faster than Tor. It's also more expensive and less convenient.

It's much faster than tor. in my experience Tor is a pain to use and not recommended for every day use. 4g is very fast even on a mobile connection. It's also not that expensive.Credit can be purchased for $10 a month and if you can afford the internet then you can afford this option, but protecting your privacy is going to come at a small cost but some may feel it's worth the money. Of course you can continue using tor but have to bare its restrictions. There's no guarantee that tor is fully safe either. I think the admin of this forum has mentioned the possibility of tor being compromised in some capacity before.

Quote
Get a new sim card or even phone every-time your data runs out.
Most people can't afford to use phones as disposables.

Phones are very cheap these days. New ones can be bought from $20 dollars. You can even buy used ones for less. Using a new phone every time is probably overkill unless you're up to some shady business but if you just want to protect your privacy a new sim every now and again will suffice. Just buy a new one every time you need to top up or chnage it every few months or so but again this is probably overkill.

Quote
I doubt most bots use tor as it's very impractical. Tor is probably just abused by a lot of people like proxies are hence why the forum restricts it.
The forum doesn't restrict Tor users. Google recaptcha "Easy on Humans, Hard on Bots (https://www.google.com/recaptcha/intro/v3.html)" becomes very difficult when it's used a lot on the same IP (and there are probably other criteria).
Even some normal websites (for instance banks) now make me click recaptcha, and it's a terrible waste of time. Bots don't care, I do.

It restricts them in the sense that you can't sign up via tor - or you can but not without paying a fee.



Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Welsh on August 15, 2019, 11:05:56 AM
The server and the software of this forum prune IP of users sometimes?
IP's are kept depending on the way they're recorded, and the settings you've enabled.

Full IP is usually around 6 months, if you haven't selected limited retention which is then usually around 3 months. Partial IP is kept for around 2 years. City geolocation probably to assist with recovery is kept for longer than the others, and that's around 6 years. As mentioned above this can be found at: https://bitcointalk.org/privacy.php


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Royse777 on August 15, 2019, 12:34:59 PM
It's horrible suggestion, Firefox default setting heavily leaks many information including unique browser fingerprint and  your real IP address (due to WebRTC feature).
You need to make lots of tweak even to reach the problem, even so you'd have unique configuration which could   be used to deanonymize you.
Okay, I was not aware about it at all. How about if I clear my history and cache every time I restart my Firefox? Do I start clean again in this case?


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: TryNinja on August 15, 2019, 01:13:29 PM
Okay, I was not aware about it at all. How about if I clear my history and cache every time I restart my Firefox? Do I start clean again in this case?
I don't think your browser's cache has anything to do with WebRTC.

What you need to do in this case is disable it: https://www.privacyend.com/disable-webrtc-in-various-browsers/
And maybe install some extra privacy extensions: https://blog.mozilla.org/firefox/make-your-firefox-browser-a-privacy-superpower-with-these-extensions/


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Welsh on August 15, 2019, 02:26:28 PM
Okay, I was not aware about it at all. How about if I clear my history and cache every time I restart my Firefox? Do I start clean again in this case?
My advice would be if you care about privacy then don't substitute Tor Browser for firefox extensions, and settings. Tor Browser is bulit on the firefox browser, but has been refined to do exactly what needs to be done to keep your privacy intact. You can't emulate that with extensions or settings without having the same issues Tor Browser is subject too.

There are settings within Tor Browser to make it restrictive, and therefore improve browsing experience for some websites.


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: ETFbitcoin on August 15, 2019, 05:44:54 PM
Okay, I was not aware about it at all. How about if I clear my history and cache every time I restart my Firefox? Do I start clean again in this case?
I don't think your browser's cache has anything to do with WebRTC.

What you need to do in this case is disable it: https://www.privacyend.com/disable-webrtc-in-various-browsers/
And maybe install some extra privacy extensions: https://blog.mozilla.org/firefox/make-your-firefox-browser-a-privacy-superpower-with-these-extensions/

Those are good steps to achieve some privacy, but manually configured Firefox can't beat Tor Browser, unless you're expert.

AFAIK there aren't any extension which makes your browser fingerprint non-unique which used to track user.


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Royse777 on August 15, 2019, 07:35:57 PM
Okay using my firefox browser I visited this: https://www.vpninsights.com/webrtc-leak-test
It indeed detected my real IP  ::)

But when I tried with TOR browser directly, it could not detect it.

Thanks TryNinja, ETFbitcoin and Welsh.


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: malevolent on August 16, 2019, 06:07:11 AM
Average registrations per day: 401.57
5 * 401.57 = 2007.85

401 is averaged since 2009. It's probably twice as much now (down from several thousand new user registrations per day during the height of the ICO craze). So, yeah, either way that's too much work for us mods :P

Phones are very cheap these days. New ones can be bought from $20 dollars. You can even buy used ones for less. Using a new phone every time is probably overkill unless you're up to some shady business but if you just want to protect your privacy a new sim every now and again will suffice. Just buy a new one every time you need to top up or chnage it every few months or so but again this is probably overkill.

If you care about privacy enough to inconvenience yourself with mobile Internet, maybe Tor is what you need. Otherwise your ISP can still locate where you are and who you connect to.


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: DdmrDdmr on August 16, 2019, 09:05:22 AM
Average registrations per day: 401.57
5 * 401.57 = 2007.85
Going over @Alex-Srs thread that keeps track of the number of registered users per month (see Statistics of user registrations on Bitcointalk 2017-2019 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4685601.0)), the recent average registered users is around 675/day so far (en of June) this year:
Code:
2019 Month Registered nDays Average
January         22234         31 717
February 16202         28 579
March         18932         31 611
April         17910         30 597
May         24472         31 789
June         22357         30 745

Total Acc 122107         181 675



Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: Welsh on August 16, 2019, 10:02:51 AM
Okay using my firefox browser I visited this: https://www.vpninsights.com/webrtc-leak-test
It indeed detected my real IP  ::)

But when I tried with TOR browser directly, it could not detect it.

Thanks TryNinja, ETFbitcoin and Welsh.

Its good practice although probably unnecessary to check whether the tor browser is leaving any fingerprints, and to check it with sites like these. Just in case you've changed a setting which compromises it. Remember, things like maximizing the window on tor browser can compromise privacy when you're browsing sites which collect that information. 


Title: Re: The forum is penalizing Tor users
Post by: tranthidung on August 16, 2019, 10:12:54 AM
Assumed monthly statistics on registered accounts of bitcointalk.org (2009-2019) (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5168990.0)
Some main points are: As a result of garbage-posting, admin asked for 1 merit to become Junior Members, since September of 2018. 3 months later, December of 2018, we saw dramatical drops of monthly new registered account.
Interesting to see that despite amazingly rally of bitcoin since December of 2018, people have not yet created too many accounts (just 7.8% increase from bottom in December 2018). They likey woke up their old-era Newbie accounts (as the ban wave in April and May shows)
Update with newest data from theymos
In the last 30 days:
 - 16441 users registered.
The total registed account in one-month period from 15 Nov. 2018 to 15 Dec. 2018 is at 20733.
It means that total registered accounts last 30 days is 20 percent lower than the figure in Dec. last year when Bitcoin bottomed out.
Code:
. di (20733-16441)/20733*100
20.701297
Latest given data from theymos, is another solid proof that spammers considerably reduce their pace of creating new accounts.
(1) Despite the rise of bitcoin to around $14,000, monthly registered accounts in last few months are too far away from all time high at 238433, in Dec. 2017.
(2) Minimum and maximum are 3 and 238433, in Nov. 2009, and December 2017, respectively.
(3) 50% of months (from Nov. 2009 to June 2019) have total monthly registered accounts in the range from 2611 to 24472 (the interquatile range).
(4) 50% of those months have total monthly registered accounts above or below 10691 (the median).
(5) The lowest and highest medians (of months for each year) found at 148 and 66895, in 2010 and 2018.
(6) From peaks on 20/12/2017, BTC close price and monthly registered accounts decreased 91.3%, and  81%, respectively, on 15/12/2018.
(7) Since 15/12/2018, BTC close price and monthly registered accounts increased 159%, and 7.8%, respectively, on 1/6/2019.

* Details of points (6), (7), please read the second post of this thread.
< ... >
Combining them, I converted dataset to use for below analysis
Code:
. list id day month2 year date regacc

     +------------------------------------------------+
     |  id   day   month2   year        date   regacc |
     |------------------------------------------------|
  1. |   1     2       11   2009   02nov2009        3 |
  2. |   2     2       12   2009   02dec2009        8 |
  3. |   3     1        1   2010   01jan2010        8 |
  4. |   4    31        1   2010   31jan2010       22 |
  5. |   5     2        3   2010   02mar2010        5 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
  6. |   6     1        4   2010   01apr2010       22 |
  7. |   7     1        5   2010   01may2010       15 |
  8. |   8    31        5   2010   31may2010       33 |
  9. |   9    30        6   2010   30jun2010      325 |
 10. |  10    30        7   2010   30jul2010      159 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 11. |  11    29        8   2010   29aug2010      148 |
 12. |  12    28        9   2010   28sep2010      190 |
 13. |  13    28       10   2010   28oct2010      204 |
 14. |  14    27       11   2010   27nov2010      383 |
 15. |  15    27       12   2010   27dec2010      384 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 16. |  16    26        1   2011   26jan2011      938 |
 17. |  17    25        2   2011   25feb2011     2202 |
 18. |  18    27        3   2011   27mar2011     2737 |
 19. |  19    26        4   2011   26apr2011     4936 |
 20. |  20    26        5   2011   26may2011    14048 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 21. |  21    25        6   2011   25jun2011     6250 |
 22. |  22    25        7   2011   25jul2011     3903 |
 23. |  23    24        8   2011   24aug2011     2938 |
 24. |  24    23        9   2011   23sep2011     1983 |
 25. |  25    23       10   2011   23oct2011     1965 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 26. |  26    22       11   2011   22nov2011     1835 |
 27. |  27    22       12   2011   22dec2011     1812 |
 28. |  28    21        1   2012   21jan2012     2082 |
 29. |  29    20        2   2012   20feb2012     1901 |
 30. |  30    21        3   2012   21mar2012     2158 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 31. |  31    20        4   2012   20apr2012     1969 |
 32. |  32    20        5   2012   20may2012     2057 |
 33. |  33    19        6   2012   19jun2012     2040 |
 34. |  34    19        7   2012   19jul2012     2145 |
 35. |  35    18        8   2012   18aug2012     2419 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 36. |  36    17        9   2012   17sep2012     2661 |
 37. |  37    17       10   2012   17oct2012     2958 |
 38. |  38    16       11   2012   16nov2012     2763 |
 39. |  39    16       12   2012   16dec2012     2611 |
 40. |  40    15        1   2013   15jan2013     3320 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 41. |  41    14        2   2013   14feb2013     4933 |
 42. |  42    16        3   2013   16mar2013    13816 |
 43. |  43    15        4   2013   15apr2013    18162 |
 44. |  44    15        5   2013   15may2013    11318 |
 45. |  45    14        6   2013   14jun2013     8095 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 46. |  46    14        7   2013   14jul2013     6703 |
 47. |  47    13        8   2013   13aug2013     5505 |
 48. |  48    12        9   2013   12sep2013     4137 |
 49. |  49    12       10   2013   12oct2013     5632 |
 50. |  50    11       11   2013   11nov2013    26804 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 51. |  51    11       12   2013   11dec2013    28776 |
 52. |  52    10        1   2014   10jan2014    29576 |
 53. |  53     9        2   2014   09feb2014    29839 |
 54. |  54    11        3   2014   11mar2014    22534 |
 55. |  55    10        4   2014   10apr2014    18065 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 56. |  56    10        5   2014   10may2014    13071 |
 57. |  57     9        6   2014   09jun2014    12180 |
 58. |  58     9        7   2014   09jul2014    10561 |
 59. |  59     8        8   2014   08aug2014    10925 |
 60. |  60     7        9   2014   07sep2014     9418 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 61. |  61     7       10   2014   07oct2014     8218 |
 62. |  62     6       11   2014   06nov2014     7974 |
 63. |  63     6       12   2014   06dec2014     8136 |
 64. |  64     5        1   2015   05jan2015    23256 |
 65. |  65     4        2   2015   04feb2015    36913 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 66. |  66     6        3   2015   06mar2015    33500 |
 67. |  67     5        4   2015   05apr2015     8450 |
 68. |  68     5        5   2015   05may2015     8577 |
 69. |  69     4        6   2015   04jun2015    10303 |
 70. |  70     4        7   2015   04jul2015    11773 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 71. |  71     3        8   2015   03aug2015     9725 |
 72. |  72     2        9   2015   02sep2015     7644 |
 73. |  73     2       10   2015   02oct2015    68601 |
 74. |  74     1       11   2015   01nov2015    44059 |
 75. |  75     1       12   2015   01dec2015    37106 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 76. |  76    30        1   2016   30jan2016    42233 |
 77. |  77    29        2   2016   29feb2016    24213 |
 78. |  78    30        3   2016   30mar2016    19336 |
 79. |  79    29        4   2016   29apr2016    16031 |
 80. |  80    29        5   2016   29may2016    19935 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 81. |  81    28        6   2016   28jun2016    12582 |
 82. |  82    28        7   2016   28jul2016    10646 |
 83. |  83    27        8   2016   27aug2016     9986 |
 84. |  84    26        9   2016   26sep2016     9844 |
 85. |  85    26       10   2016   26oct2016    10718 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 86. |  86    25       11   2016   25nov2016    10691 |
 87. |  87    25       12   2016   25dec2016    12429 |
 88. |  88    24        1   2017   24jan2017    13664 |
 89. |  89    23        2   2017   23feb2017    13893 |
 90. |  90    25        3   2017   25mar2017    15276 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 91. |  91    24        4   2017   24apr2017    20585 |
 92. |  92    24        5   2017   24may2017    31381 |
 93. |  93    23        6   2017   23jun2017    35866 |
 94. |  94    23        7   2017   23jul2017    40726 |
 95. |  95    22        8   2017   22aug2017    45026 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
 96. |  96    21        9   2017   21sep2017    70477 |
 97. |  97    21       10   2017   21oct2017    95568 |
 98. |  98    20       11   2017   20nov2017   144762 |
 99. |  99    20       12   2017   20dec2017   238433 |
100. | 100    19        1   2018   19jan2018   136872 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
101. | 101    18        2   2018   18feb2018   107237 |
102. | 102    20        3   2018   20mar2018    87087 |
103. | 103    19        4   2018   19apr2018    89659 |
104. | 104    19        5   2018   19may2018    83999 |
105. | 105    18        6   2018   18jun2018    72430 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
106. | 106    18        7   2018   18jul2018    61360 |
107. | 107    17        8   2018   17aug2018    41451 |
108. | 108    16        9   2018   16sep2018    41516 |
109. | 109    16       10   2018   16oct2018    35335 |
110. | 110    15       11   2018   15nov2018    31502 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
111. | 111    15       12   2018   15dec2018    20733 |
112. | 112    14        1   2019   14jan2019    20046 |
113. | 113     1        2   2019   01feb2019    16202 |
114. | 114     1        3   2019   01mar2019    18932 |
115. | 115     1        4   2019   01apr2019    17910 |
     |------------------------------------------------|
116. | 116     1        5   2019   01may2019    24472 |
117. | 117     1        6   2019   01jun2019    22357 |
     +------------------------------------------------+


Plot: