Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Collectibles => Topic started by: Denarium on August 23, 2019, 05:11:42 PM



Title: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Denarium on August 23, 2019, 05:11:42 PM
Description: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Starting bid: 0.15 BTC
End date and time: Tuesday 3rd of September at 11:00 UTC and when there have been no new bids in *10 minutes*
Payment methods accepted: Bitcoin, Litecoin, Ethereum, Ripple (payment is made through CoinPayments)

Gold meets Bitcoin - the Ultimate Financial Bedrock

This elegant product combines two financial safe havens - Aurum of the Past and Bitcoin of the Future - creating a temporal bridge between the two and anchoring its owner steadfastly into financial solidity.

First and most obvious you are bidding for a full one Troy ounce gold bar, beautifully framed and encased with a historically disruptive message pointing to the second fact of golden Bitcoin cold storage wallet. This product includes the latest in Denarium Bitcoin cold storage technology and serves to store your Bitcoin safely and securely for decades to come.

Join us in the celebration of Bitcoin Decennium and place your bids!

This auction contains 5 units from the limited edition of one hundred 1 Troy oz gold bars. Each bar has a serialized number (1 of 100, 2 of 100, etc) engraved in the front of the bar. Five will be auctioned, and 95 will be released at Denarium.com after the auction. The product is free of VAT and shipping is included.

See videos: https://denarium.com/denarium-bitcoin-decennium-2019

Details

Dimensions of the gold bar: 29,91 x 18,03 x 3,40 mm
Dimensions of the metal plate: 140 x 80 x 5 mm
Dimensions with the case: 157 x 98 x 14 mm
Weight: 1 Troy ounce (31,1 g / 1.097 ounces)
Material: .9999 Fine Gold (99,99 % gold) accreditation by Labtium
Mint year: 2019
Mint country: Poland


The products in this auction are pre-assembled and the serial number of the products are the following:

1 of 100 A402
2 of 100 A404
3 of 100 A405
4 of 100 A406
5 of 100 A407


All the bars have special auction serials (A). These are very special since all the bars sold at the website will have either L (loaded) or E (empty) serials.

Note we may auction more bars later, but they will have either L or E serials. This is the only auction for the bars with A serials.


Pictures of the product

https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Denarium-10y-of-Bitcoin-full-size-1024x576.jpg
Click to view Full Size image (https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Denarium-10y-of-Bitcoin-full-size.jpg)

https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Denarium-10y-of-Bitcoin-front-and-back-full-size-1024x576.jpg
Click to view Full Size image (https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Denarium-10y-of-Bitcoin-front-and-back-full-size.jpg)

https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/10_year_bar_auction_gold-3-988x1024.jpg
Click to view Full Size image (https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/10_year_bar_auction_gold-3.jpg)

https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/10_year_bar_auction_gold-2-1024x969.jpg
Click to view Full Size image (https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/10_year_bar_auction_gold-2.jpg)

https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/10_year_bar_auction_gold-1-1024x868.jpg
Click to view Full Size image (https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/10_year_bar_auction_gold-1.jpg)

https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/10_year_bar_auction_gold-4-988x1024.jpg
Click to view Full Size image (https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/10_year_bar_auction_gold-4.jpg)

Videos of the product

https://denarium.com/denarium-bitcoin-decennium-2019

Package of the product

We deliver the product in a clear plastic case.


https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/10_year_bar_auction-1-859x1024.jpg
Click to view Full Size image (https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/10_year_bar_auction-1.jpg)


https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/10_year_bar_auction-2-859x1024.jpg
Click to view Full Size image (https://denarium.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/10_year_bar_auction-2.jpg)



General information


You are ONLY bidding for the product itself, not the bitcoin value inside the product. If you win a product, you can choose to buy it loaded which will add the BTC to the auction price. This is a no-denomination (custom) product meaning you can add any amount of BTC to it. Alternatively, you can decide to buy it empty. To the US we can only sell products that are not loaded by us. The "empty" products can easily be loaded with bitcoin value by the customer himself/herself, however.

This gold bar is defined as investment gold and is not, therefore, VAT taxable, i.e., there is no VAT in the price, and it will not be added either. Duties and taxes may apply depending on your country. The buyer is responsible for the possible duties and taxes.

Shipping date

The bars are pre-assembled. The estimated shipping date is within a week from the end of the auction.

How to bid

You can bid for any amount of bars from 1 bar to 5 bars. The bidding format is "2 @ 0.2" which means "I'm bidding for 2 bars, 0.2 bitcoins each". If you want to bid for one bar only, post "1 @ 0.2" or simply the price “0.2”. If for all of them, post "5 @ 0.2". The auction is conducted by using at most 2 decimals and all bids must be divisible by 0.01 BTC. So you can bid "2 @ 0.22" but bidding “2 @ 0.222” will be an invalid bid.

So if I were bidding for 2 bars and 0.2 BTC each, I would post "2 @ 0.2".

Each winner will pay exactly the amount that they bid. Meaning that if the highest bidder bid 0.8 bitcoin and the lowest winning bidder bid 0.7 bitcoin, then the highest bidder will pay 0.8 bitcoin for his bar and the lowest winning bidder will pay 0.7 bitcoin for his.



Auction rules

When you post a bid, the bids in your previous posts are considered to be automatically canceled. You can put multiple bids in one post, however.
- If two people bid at the same price, the person who bid first will be first in line to win a bar.
- Bids are considered invalid and will be ignored if they do not specify the price of the bid and the number of bars (if it is more than one bar) the bidder is bidding for, or if they could not possibly win any slots.
- Winning bidders must inform us within 48 hours after the end of the auction which serial number they are choosing.

- All bid prices must be evenly divisible by 0.01
- The winner of the auction has 2 days to pay the auction amount
- Bids are considered invalid and will be ignored if they do not specify clearly the price of the bid


We will reserve the right to reject bids, even days after the bid is made. If bids are rejected for any reason, the next bids in line that didn't win initially, will come into play and will have a chance to buy the auction item.

Important: Auction payments should ONLY be paid through a CoinPayments link that we send to the winner. Do not, under any circumstances, make payment to a Bitcoin address sent by PM.

At the moment we will not deliver these products to Brazil, India, Russia and North Korea.

Note: If you win the auction, but have limitations to send private messages to us, please use the email address store@denarium.com to deliver your shipping details.

If you don't want to send your address through Bitcointalk private message, then you can also use the Privnote service https://privnote.com/#.

Good luck!







Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: minerjones on August 23, 2019, 05:41:19 PM
1 @ 0.15BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: bavicrypto on August 23, 2019, 05:46:57 PM
1@.15


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: comit on August 23, 2019, 07:06:29 PM
1 @ 0.15 BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: anonymousminer on August 23, 2019, 07:20:06 PM
4 of 100 - 0.15BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: lebnor on August 24, 2019, 02:41:27 PM
2 @ 0.15BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: BitcoinNewsMagazine on August 24, 2019, 03:37:51 PM
1 @ 0.16 BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: wttbs on August 24, 2019, 07:52:48 PM
5 of 100 @ 0.15BTC sorry that's an invalid bid

1 @ 0.16BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: BitcoinNewsMagazine on August 25, 2019, 01:11:07 AM
5 of 100 @ 0.15BTC

As I read the OP you are not bidding on individual bars, just the right to claim one of the five offered. Since there is one bid at 0.16 and four bids at 0.15 already any new bid at 0.15 would seem to be not valid. I think you have to bid at least 0.16 now but I might be wrong.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: wttbs on August 25, 2019, 06:14:30 AM
5 of 100 @ 0.15BTC

As I read the OP you are not bidding on individual cards, just the right to claim one of the five offered. Since there is one bid at 0.16 and four bids at 0.15 already any new bid at 0.15 would seem to be not valid. I think you have to bid at least 0.16 now but I might be wrong.


sorry about that, thanks for the heads up. fixed it.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: OgNasty on August 25, 2019, 08:25:17 AM
1 @ 0.16 BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: comit on August 25, 2019, 08:44:22 AM
1 @ 0.17 BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: minerjones on August 25, 2019, 02:15:24 PM
5 of 100 @ 0.15BTC

As I read the OP you are not bidding on individual bars, just the right to claim one of the five offered. Since there is one bid at 0.16 and four bids at 0.15 already any new bid at 0.15 would seem to be not valid. I think you have to bid at least 0.16 now but I might be wrong.

Correct. They use a LIFO system for the bids.

Below are the current high bids:

https://i.imgur.com/SplHoaL.png


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Fattcatt on August 25, 2019, 02:50:31 PM
This is going to be a VERY interesting auction  :D  Extremely NICE product and a lot of people who love Gold.  :) Good Luck to all.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: pk1978 on August 26, 2019, 12:22:56 AM
1 @ 0.18


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: hybridsole on August 26, 2019, 03:33:29 AM
1 @ 0.18


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: selffish on August 26, 2019, 06:10:35 AM
1 @ 0.18


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: OgNasty on August 26, 2019, 07:08:29 AM
1 @ 0.18


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Mikhail_Bitcoinevich on August 26, 2019, 08:49:11 AM
1 @ 0.19


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on August 26, 2019, 09:10:01 PM
We originally planned on launching this product approximately 6 months ago. Due to various production issues, especially related to the casing, it took much longer. But something good is worth waiting for and I'm really proud of this product. I hope it pleases crypto collectors all over the world.

Current status of the auction:

Mikhail_Bitcoinevich @ 0.19
pk1978 @ 0.18
hybridsole @ 0.18
selffish @ 0.18
OgNasty @ 0.18


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: xilopupoma on August 27, 2019, 07:18:09 AM
1 @ 0.20


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: micgoossens on August 28, 2019, 09:14:46 AM
@1 
.21BTC

@2
.19 BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on August 29, 2019, 11:04:10 PM
Current status of the auction:

micgoossens @ 0.21
xilopupoma @ 0.20
Mikhail_Bitcoinevich @ 0.19
micgoossens @ 0.19
micgoossens @ 0.19





Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: mjsosa on August 30, 2019, 01:11:35 PM
1@.22


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on August 30, 2019, 01:12:56 PM
 :-X


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: yimfinity on August 30, 2019, 03:07:41 PM
looks gorgeous. nice work. i assume the slab airtight?


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Galbraith02 on August 30, 2019, 07:32:53 PM
1@0.23
only valid for bar 001


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Denarium on August 31, 2019, 03:55:23 AM
looks gorgeous. nice work. i assume the slab airtight?

It has a magnetic enclosure, and thus it is not airtight, as it is not necessary.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: RobertoG777 on September 01, 2019, 12:13:39 PM
1@0.20


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 01, 2019, 09:43:04 PM
Less than 2 days left until the auction ends.

Current status of the auction:

Galbraith02 @ 0.23
mjsosa @ 0.22
micgoossens @ 0.21
xilopupoma @ 0.20
RobertoG777 @ 0.20

Note: Galbraith02 has stated he will honor the bid only if he gets the top spot and is able to choose bar 1 of 100. To make things clear for everyone if his bid drops to any other spot than #1, the bid will be removed entirely and is actually no longer valid. As it is highly likely that the top bidder will choose bar #1.



Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 02, 2019, 02:31:45 PM
1@.25


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: pk1978 on September 02, 2019, 03:59:36 PM
2@0.23


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 02, 2019, 08:28:13 PM
Current status of the auction:

rsincognito @ 0.25
pk1978 @ 0.23
pk1978 @ 0.23
mjsosa @ 0.22
micgoossens @ 0.21


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: pk1978 on September 02, 2019, 09:35:03 PM
Current status of the auction:

rsincognito @ 0.25
pk1978 @ 0.23
pk1978 @ 0.23
mjsosa @ 0.22
micgoossens @ 0.21


Ah, sorry, mine means No2 for 0.23,
not 2 coins, just one. Cheers


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: cyph3r05 on September 02, 2019, 11:35:42 PM
1 @ 0.24


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 12:18:02 AM
Current status of the auction:

rsincognito @ 0.25
cyph3r05 @ 0.24
pk1978 @ 0.23
mjsosa @ 0.22
micgoossens @ 0.21


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Denarium on September 03, 2019, 08:26:26 AM
Auction going on for less than 3 hours.! Do not miss your chance to participate!

Ending time is 11.00 UTC.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: xilopupoma on September 03, 2019, 08:28:01 AM
1 @ 0.24


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Denarium on September 03, 2019, 08:31:18 AM
Auction going on for less than 3 hours.! Do not miss your chance to participate!

Ending time is 11.00 UTC.

Well, this auction is quite interesting, so I think this lasts quite longer than 11:00 UTC.

"End date and time: Tuesday 3rd of September at 11:00 UTC and when there have been no new bids in *10 minutes*"


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 09:01:09 AM
Current status of the auction:

rsincognito @ 0.25
cyph3r05 @ 0.24
xilopupoma @ 0.24
pk1978 @ 0.23
mjsosa @ 0.22


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 10:48:08 AM
2 @ .25


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 10:49:04 AM
Current status of the auction:

rsincognito @ 0.25
rsincognito @ 0.25
cyph3r05 @ 0.24
xilopupoma @ 0.24
pk1978 @ 0.23


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Ramelius on September 03, 2019, 10:51:07 AM
0.26 Btc
Valid for bar 001


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: lebnor on September 03, 2019, 10:52:43 AM
0.26BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 10:55:15 AM
Current status of the auction:

Ramelius @ 0.26
lebnor @ 0.26
rsincognito @ 0.25
rsincognito @ 0.25
cyph3r05 @ 0.24

Bid of Ramelius only valid in the #1 spot.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 10:56:29 AM
2@ .27


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: xilopupoma on September 03, 2019, 10:57:03 AM
1 @ 0.27


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 10:59:11 AM
2 @ 0.3


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 11:00:15 AM
Current status of the auction:

kebab77 @ 0.30
kebab77 @ 0.30
rsincognito @ 0.27
rsincognito @ 0.27
xilopupoma @ 0.27


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: lebnor on September 03, 2019, 11:00:33 AM
1 @ 0.31BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 11:01:12 AM
2 @ 0.32


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: lebnor on September 03, 2019, 11:02:41 AM
1 @ 0.33BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 11:04:37 AM
1 @ 0.35
1 @ 0.32


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 11:05:31 AM
Current status of the auction:

kebab77 @ 0.35
lebnor @ 0.33
kebab77 @ 0.32
rsincognito @ 0.27
rsincognito @ 0.27


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: xilopupoma on September 03, 2019, 11:09:55 AM
1 @ 0.28


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 11:14:48 AM
2 @ .37


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 11:16:12 AM
Current status of the auction:

rsincognito @ 0.37
rsincognito @ 0.37
kebab77 @ 0.35
lebnor @ 0.33
kebab77 @ 0.32



Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 11:17:47 AM
1 @ 0.4
1 @ 0.38


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: lebnor on September 03, 2019, 11:18:44 AM
1 @ 0.39BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 11:23:29 AM
Current status of the auction:

kebab77 @ 0.40
lebnor @ 0.39
kebab77 @ 0.38
rsincognito @ 0.37
rsincognito @ 0.37



Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 11:26:34 AM
2 @ .42


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 11:29:59 AM
2 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 11:30:49 AM
Current status of the auction:

kebab77 @ 0.43
kebab77 @ 0.43
rsincognito @ 0.42
rsincognito @ 0.42
lebnor @ 0.39



Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: lebnor on September 03, 2019, 11:33:59 AM
1 @ 0.44BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 11:38:24 AM
1 @ 0.45
1 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 11:46:14 AM
Current status of the auction:

kebab77 @ 0.45
lebnor @ 0.44
kebab77 @ 0.43
rsincognito @ 0.42
rsincognito @ 0.42



Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 11:46:47 AM
2 @ .47


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 11:52:11 AM
1 @ 0.51
1 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: lebnor on September 03, 2019, 11:53:31 AM
1 @ 0.48BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 11:56:15 AM
Current status of the auction:

kebab77 @ 0.51
lebnor @ 0.48
rsincognito @ 0.47
rsincognito @ 0.47
kebab77 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 12:00:43 PM
2 @ .53


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 12:06:20 PM
1 @ 0.55
1 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 12:13:40 PM
2 @ .57


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 12:14:28 PM
1 @ 0.6
1 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 12:21:41 PM
2 @ .63


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 12:22:22 PM
1 @ 0.7
1 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 12:31:00 PM
1 @ .75
1 @ .72


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 12:32:11 PM
1 @ 0.8
1 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 12:35:37 PM
Current status of the auction:

kebab77 @ 0.80
rsincognito @ 0.75
rsincognito @ 0.72
lebnor @ 0.48
kebab77 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 12:38:56 PM
2 @ .49


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 12:41:54 PM
Current status of the auction:

kebab77 @ 0.80
rsincognito @ 0.49
rsincognito @ 0.49
lebnor @ 0.48
kebab77 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 12:44:30 PM
1 @ 0.5
1 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 12:53:15 PM
1 @ .52
1 @ .51


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 12:54:19 PM
1 @ 0.76
1 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: lebnor on September 03, 2019, 12:54:33 PM
1 @ .43 BTC


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 12:57:30 PM
Current status of the auction:

kebab77 @ 0.76
rsincognito @ 0.52
rsincognito @ 0.51
kebab77 @ 0.43
lebnor @ 0.43

We might have to rethink the rules for lowering bids in the future... :)


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: comit on September 03, 2019, 12:59:21 PM
Current status of the auction:

kebab77 @ 0.76
rsincognito @ 0.52
rsincognito @ 0.51
kebab77 @ 0.43
lebnor @ 0.43

We might have to rethink the rules for lowering bids in the future... :)

Where is kebab77's 0.8 BTC bid?


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 01:01:07 PM
Where is kebab77's 0.8 BTC bid?

Invalidated by his newer, lower bids. Technically the rules don't deny overriding higher bids with lower bids, so this can happen. We might change the rules for future auctions, didn't really think of this before as it hasn't been an issue. rsincognito did it first though, and kebab77 simply followed through to not pay too much of a premium.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 01:01:44 PM
Not happy being bid up only for them to drop and then start bidding me up again


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 01:02:25 PM
2 @ .44


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 01:03:03 PM
2 @ 0.45


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: lebnor on September 03, 2019, 01:05:31 PM
1 @ 0.29BTC   :D


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 01:07:57 PM
CHANGE OF RULES! BIDS CAN NO LONGER BE REPLACED BY LOWER BIDS. IF YOU BID LOWER THAN YOUR PREVIOUS BID, THE NEW BID IS INVALID.

THIS RULE IS VALID AFTER THIS POST.

Get this over with.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 01:10:34 PM
Current status of the auction:

kebab77 @ 0.45
kebab77 @ 0.45
rsincognito @ 0.44
rsincognito @ 0.44
lebnor @ 0.29

Note: Change of rules, new bids that are lower than your previous bids will not be valid.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 01:16:43 PM
Well that was fun.  Lol  :D


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: kebab77 on September 03, 2019, 01:17:48 PM
Hate you guys rn ... hour of my life lost forever


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 03, 2019, 01:19:11 PM
WINNERS OF THE AUCTION!

kebab77 @ 0.45
kebab77 @ 0.45
rsincognito @ 0.44
rsincognito @ 0.44
lebnor @ 0.29

What a battle guys. Congrats to the winners! Our official account Denarium (OP poster) will contact you about payments / delivery in the near future.

In future auctions we will change the rules to disallow making new bids that are lower than previous bids. This has never been disallowed technically in our auctions but no one has tried to do that before. Apologies for the hassle. But now it's finished :)


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: rsincognito on September 03, 2019, 01:21:06 PM
You are lucky, it was my girlfriends birthday and she woke up during the auction and asked what I was doing and I told her, she said “aren’t you going to wish me happy birthday ?”  Which put me instantly in the dog house, other wise I could have done this all day.  Lol.  Congrats to everyone , we all got bargains in the end .


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: minerjones on September 04, 2019, 01:58:17 PM
CHANGE OF RULES! BIDS CAN NO LONGER BE REPLACED BY LOWER BIDS. IF YOU BID LOWER THAN YOUR PREVIOUS BID, THE NEW BID IS INVALID.

THIS RULE IS VALID AFTER THIS POST.

Get this over with.

Changing rules mid-auction?   you gotta be kidding me.......   ???


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 04, 2019, 05:32:13 PM
Changing rules mid-auction?   you gotta be kidding me.......   ???

It's unusual but under the circumstances it had to be done. The rules had a previously unknown exploit which made the whole auction slide into ridiculousness. I'm pretty sure all participants understood and most probably appreciated it.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: minerjones on September 04, 2019, 05:35:26 PM
Changing rules mid-auction?   you gotta be kidding me.......   ???

It's unusual but under the circumstances it had to be done. The rules had a previously unknown exploit which made the whole auction slide into ridiculousness. I'm pretty sure all participants understood and most probably appreciated it.

Then you redo the auction and start over.... not change rules while it is running.
And you have run enough auctions on here to know they way things work. This behavior from you is out of the ordinary


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: teeGUMES on September 04, 2019, 05:59:58 PM
Every denarium auction turns into a shitshow. This is not out of the ordinary at all. Many prominent collectors no longer bid in their threads.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: geophphreigh on September 04, 2019, 10:31:55 PM
I don’t understand this at all?  How can bids go down in an auction? Wouldn’t the higher bids stay regardless and lower bids be replaced with higher bids? I thought that was how an auction worked. It doesn’t seem that this concept needs clarification in the rules, but would be implied. Can someone explain how price can go down. Minerjones has had many multi-item auctions that function this way. Ie the recent Lealana 10 coin auction.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 04, 2019, 11:46:40 PM
I don’t understand this at all?  How can bids go down in an auction? Wouldn’t the higher bids stay regardless and lower bids be replaced with higher bids? I thought that was how an auction worked. It doesn’t seem that this concept needs clarification in the rules, but would be implied. Can someone explain how price can go down. Minerjones has had many multi-item auctions that function this way. Ie the recent Lealana 10 coin auction.

We assumed this as well, as did most others probably. The problem is that doing what was done in this particular auction (again, it has never happened before) is not explicitly forbidden in the rules. The rules just state that if you place a new bid, your previous bids are invalid. That's it. To make this clear, we will add a rule about this in the future, to avoid similar issues.

I'd like to note that I think many other auctions here have the same "exploit" possibility, as they might not technically forbid this type of bidding. I would recommend anyone setting up an auction to include something about this in the rules, just in case. We can't assume everyone just magically "knows how auctions work", all relevant things should be in the rules.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: geophphreigh on September 05, 2019, 12:28:17 AM

When you post a bid, the bids in your previous posts are considered to be automatically canceled. You can put multiple bids in one post, however.
- If two people bid at the same price, the person who bid first will be first in line to win a bar.
- Bids are considered invalid and will be ignored if they do not specify the price of the bid and the number of bars (if it is more than one bar) the bidder is bidding for, or if they could not possibly win any slots.


I understand what you are saying, but it makes no sense.
The definition of an auction is "a public sale in which goods or property are sold to the highest bidder." So any lower bid is automatically invalid, based on the definition of an auction.  You even stated in the OP that a bid is invalid if it could not possibly win a slot. I don't think you need to explicitly forbid a lower bid as it would be invalid. It seems that once someone bid lower than their original bid, their original bid should have still stood, and the new bid would have been valid for a second slot if it beat one of the other existing bids. It doesn't replace an existing winning bid at a lower price. It does not seem that the auction rules in this or others were fundamentally flawed, just not applied correctly to the bids placed in this case? I'm just trying to understand better.

Where is kebab77's 0.8 BTC bid?

Invalidated by his newer, lower bids. Technically the rules don't deny overriding higher bids with lower bids, so this can happen. We might change the rules for future auctions, didn't really think of this before as it hasn't been an issue. rsincognito did it first though, and kebab77 simply followed through to not pay too much of a premium.

I just don't understand how a lower bid could override a higher bid ever in an auction. I may be crazy, but that is what an auction is. It does not need to be stated in the rules, that's what it is. rsincognito and kebab77's "newer, lower bids" should not have invalidated their higher bids, but stood as new bids if they beat any other existing bids, otherwise they are by definition invalid. Simply having higher bid does not mean they are "paying a premium" it means they have a better chance of winning the auction. Maybe they are willing to pay more to get their choice of numbered bar?  Again, I am just so confused and trying to understand better. I'll quit beating the horse.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: minerjones on September 05, 2019, 12:32:14 AM
I don’t understand this at all?  How can bids go down in an auction? Wouldn’t the higher bids stay regardless and lower bids be replaced with higher bids? I thought that was how an auction worked. It doesn’t seem that this concept needs clarification in the rules, but would be implied. Can someone explain how price can go down. Minerjones has had many multi-item auctions that function this way. Ie the recent Lealana 10 coin auction.

We assumed this as well, as did most others probably. The problem is that doing what was done in this particular auction (again, it has never happened before) is not explicitly forbidden in the rules. The rules just state that if you place a new bid, your previous bids are invalid. That's it. To make this clear, we will add a rule about this in the future, to avoid similar issues.

I'd like to note that I think many other auctions here have the same "exploit" possibility, as they might not technically forbid this type of bidding. I would recommend anyone setting up an auction to include something about this in the rules, just in case. We can't assume everyone just magically "knows how auctions work", all relevant things should be in the rules.

And guess we can't assume people have brain in their head.....   it's all magic.....


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 12:43:13 AM
From the rules perspective it's quite simple really:

"When you post a bid, the bids in your previous posts are considered to be automatically canceled."

This means you can make new bids that will invalidate your old bids (as long as the new bids are valid!)

"Bids are considered invalid and will be ignored if they do not specify the price of the bid and the number of bars (if it is more than one bar) the bidder is bidding for, or if they could not possibly win any slots."

The new bids were valid as they could still win slots. Not necessarily the same slots as before, but they could still win slots. Thus they replaced the old bids.

I really wish it were not so, as I think we lost some money on this "exploit". But when this happened we checked the rules and it is quite clear it is a valid move to change a bid to a lower amount as long as you can still win slots with it. We thought it was a bit ridiculous as was evident by how the auction started behaving, then changed the rules to get a handle on it.

Note that such a situation is not possible in single-item auctions. This can only happen in an auction with multiple slots, otherwise the rules would have invalidated making a new bid that is lower. This can of course be fixed with a simple rule change going forward.

And no, we have never before changed rules in the middle of an auction nor is it going to become a habit. This was an extreme situation where we had to make a call between cancelling the whole auction and changing the rules, and we went with the latter. I think everyone actually bidding in the auction were fine with how we chose to handle it.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: anonymousminer on September 05, 2019, 01:03:45 AM
Shitty practice.... period.  On both the bidders for taking advantage of it and you most of all for allowing it.  This thread is nauseating and the more you talk, the more of a tool you come across as.  For me, I’ll never buy another Denarium piece.  


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: geophphreigh on September 05, 2019, 01:05:53 AM
I appreciate your strict adherence to the rules you set forth. I agree with you that you lost out on this auction with initial bids almost twice what the final sale was for. I still disagree. The rule that a new bid cancels an older existing bid is there to ensure a person is not held accountable for two separate bids when they intended only one. An auction fundamentally can not go backwards in price, even with your rules.  Those new lower bids should have never been valid bids, unless if intended for a second item. If people don't know how an auction works at a basic level, they shouldn't be bidding and/or trying to manipulate the auction or seller. This format can be and has been implemented on this forum successfully without issue.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Ramelius on September 05, 2019, 01:32:57 AM
I agree. I was bidding and left the auction when the price went above what I was willing to bid. I didn’t expect to come back later and see the winning bids lower ....


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Agrawas on September 05, 2019, 01:40:46 AM

"When you post a bid, the bids in your previous posts are considered to be automatically canceled."


Scenario

5 BTC Cas coin comes for auction

Bidder 1 bids 1BTC
Bidder 2 bids 2BTC
Bidder 3 bids 7.5BTC

Everyone lost hope for winning and unfollow the thread

Last few secs/mins Bidder 3 bids 2.5BTC and won the auction..

What kinda rule is that? The 2nd bid from the same bidder cancels the first bid.





In reality it has happened a lot andw hen people bid .2 instead of .02 or some like but they publicly asks to cancel the the bid since they made a typo or something and which is perfectly fine since everyone undesstands and ever the sellers point out those mistakes for the bidders sometimes.. ..


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Agrawas on September 05, 2019, 01:41:49 AM
I agree. I was bidding and left the auction when the price went above what I was willing to bid. I didn’t expect to come back later and see the winning bids lower ....

I just typed in the exact same scenario above and that actually made few of us lost hope in the auction..


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Lesbian Cow on September 05, 2019, 03:22:46 AM
Is the weight of 1 toz stamped anywhere on these bars?  It is not evident in the photos best I can tell.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: BG4 on September 05, 2019, 03:26:28 AM
Why is there 4 9's on the front and 3 9s on the side.....??????  what TOOL would authorize that for minting...??????


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: lebnor on September 05, 2019, 03:31:38 AM
Shitty practice.... period.  On both the bidders for taking advantage of it and you most of all for allowing it.  This thread is nauseating and the more you talk, the more of a tool you come across as.  For me, I’ll never buy another Denarium piece.  
This was a very strange auction indeed. To be clear,  The minute Technomage validated a lower bid, I sent a pm asking him how he could possibly validate a lower bid  ??? After he explained why, I was shocked but like ok whatever.. So I followed his rules. I’ve never been put in that situation before but simply wanted to pay lowest amount..


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: BG4 on September 05, 2019, 03:44:55 AM
From the rules perspective it's quite simple really:

"When you post a bid, the bids in your previous posts are considered to be automatically canceled."

This means you can make new bids that will invalidate your old bids (as long as the new bids are valid!)

"Bids are considered invalid and will be ignored if they do not specify the price of the bid and the number of bars (if it is more than one bar) the bidder is bidding for, or if they could not possibly win any slots."

The new bids were valid as they could still win slots. Not necessarily the same slots as before, but they could still win slots. Thus they replaced the old bids.

I really wish it were not so, as I think we lost some money on this "exploit". But when this happened we checked the rules and it is quite clear it is a valid move to change a bid to a lower amount as long as you can still win slots with it. We thought it was a bit ridiculous as was evident by how the auction started behaving, then changed the rules to get a handle on it.

Note that such a situation is not possible in single-item auctions. This can only happen in an auction with multiple slots, otherwise the rules would have invalidated making a new bid that is lower. This can of course be fixed with a simple rule change going forward.

And no, we have never before changed rules in the middle of an auction nor is it going to become a habit. This was an extreme situation where we had to make a call between cancelling the whole auction and changing the rules, and we went with the latter. I think everyone actually bidding in the auction were fine with how we chose to handle it.


Who is WE......  


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: jackbauercsgo on September 05, 2019, 04:31:18 AM
yikes, what a mess.... glad I've steered clear of Denarium auctions... so many issues


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: pk1978 on September 05, 2019, 05:38:12 AM
wow, yeah, its kind a mess indeed. :(


@Technomage: Wondering guys, how much it will be sold for on the website please?


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 11:20:11 AM
Is the weight of 1 toz stamped anywhere on these bars?  It is not evident in the photos best I can tell.

It's not there. The bars are exactly 1oz though, but it's not printed in the bar.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 11:21:58 AM
Why is there 4 9's on the front and 3 9s on the side.....??????  what TOOL would authorize that for minting...??????

The bars are .9999 gold and this has been certified by the independent lab we use for verification (Labtium). The problem is they don't have a .9999 stamp, they only have a .999 stamp. But they provide a certificate which confirms the .9999 purity, and we can provide a copy of that certificate to any buyers if needed.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 11:23:15 AM
Who is WE......  

WE = Denarium. I'm co-founder & Chairman of Prasos which is the company that operates Denarium.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 11:25:00 AM
@Technomage: Wondering guys, how much it will be sold for on the website please?

The product is already on sale at our website: https://denarium.com/product/denarium-bitcoin-decennium-2019

Just as a tip to potential buyers, it is possible to reserve specific bars when buying. If they are available of course, some have been bought already.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: selffish on September 05, 2019, 11:59:01 AM
@Technomage: Wondering guys, how much it will be sold for on the website please?

The product is already on sale at our website: https://denarium.com/product/denarium-bitcoin-decennium-2019

Just as a tip to potential buyers, it is possible to reserve specific bars when buying. If they are available of course, some have been bought already.

Really hard prices. Gold worth 1.4k..
Nice Item good luck


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: pk1978 on September 05, 2019, 12:47:13 PM
@Technomage: Wondering guys, how much it will be sold for on the website please?

The product is already on sale at our website: https://denarium.com/product/denarium-bitcoin-decennium-2019

Just as a tip to potential buyers, it is possible to reserve specific bars when buying. If they are available of course, some have been bought already.

thanks, did not see it.

Well, its 0.25 BTC, so, indeed the winner of this mess is lebnor (no disrespect to him). Changing the 0.43 btc bid down to 0.29 btc and grabbing a limited edition piece for only 0.04 over the ordinary edition's price was a nice catch.

hehe, I am a slightly bitter as my budget was 0.4 BTC for this piece but stopped following when I saw all prices are over it.

better luck next time, lol


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: minerjones on September 05, 2019, 12:50:41 PM
Why is there 4 9's on the front and 3 9s on the side.....??????  what TOOL would authorize that for minting...??????

The bars are .9999 gold and this has been certified by the independent lab we use for verification (Labtium). The problem is they don't have a .9999 stamp, they only have a .999 stamp. But they provide a certificate which confirms the .9999 purity, and we can provide a copy of that certificate to any buyers if needed.

Really?  Maybe look for a new lab that can afford a stamp....   


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: BG4 on September 05, 2019, 01:20:54 PM
Who is WE......  

WE = Denarium. I'm co-founder & Chairman of Prasos which is the company that operates Denarium.


Funny how Kebaba77's.   only posts .......are for your auctions..

 


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: JUPITYR on September 05, 2019, 01:30:45 PM
@Technomage: Wondering guys, how much it will be sold for on the website please?

The product is already on sale at our website: https://denarium.com/product/denarium-bitcoin-decennium-2019

Just as a tip to potential buyers, it is possible to reserve specific bars when buying. If they are available of course, some have been bought already.

The premiums that Denarium charges on gold products is crazy.  $2646 USD for a 1 oz bar??

And here I thought the US Mint's premiums were bad.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Agrawas on September 05, 2019, 01:46:08 PM
Who is WE......  

WE = Denarium. I'm co-founder & Chairman of Prasos which is the company that operates Denarium.


Funny how Kebaba77's.   only posts .......are for your auctions..

 

MUst be a hard core fan of Denarium products..  :( :(


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: hybridsole on September 05, 2019, 01:46:24 PM
Where is kebab77's 0.8 BTC bid?

Invalidated by his newer, lower bids. Technically the rules don't deny overriding higher bids with lower bids

Technically the rules don't deny many, many things.   You don't need a stipulation for everything.

What's weird about this is Denarium stood to make an extra 0.4 BTC by simply letting Kebab's higher bid stand.  But they went on a limb and allowed them to lower it, against all logic and convention. Why?  

Because was a clever ruse to drum up interest and get a whale to outbid someone for #1. Nobody took the bait and FOMO bid at 0.81.  

So, they had a tough choice.  Allow the shill to lower the bid and take a reputational hit, so that someone might try to outbid the lower 0.4 instead (because 0.8 was clearly off the mark).  Neither strategies worked, and it's backfiring completely.  

Making matters worse, Lebnor wisely caught wind of this strategy, and also lowered his bid.  It wasn't until this happened that Denarium took an even bigger risk. He stepped in to change the rules for Lebnor using this strategy! Even though Lebnor was lowering it by much less than Kebab did.  Why?  Because the scam was being used against them in away they didn't anticipate (by an actual bidder).  

https://i.imgur.com/CzyKA4F.png


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: mortare on September 05, 2019, 02:11:11 PM
@Technomage: Wondering guys, how much it will be sold for on the website please?

The product is already on sale at our website: https://denarium.com/product/denarium-bitcoin-decennium-2019

Just as a tip to potential buyers, it is possible to reserve specific bars when buying. If they are available of course, some have been bought already.

The premiums that Denarium charges on gold products is crazy.  $2646 USD for a 1 oz bar??

And here I thought the US Mint's premiums were bad.

Realy like this product but this is indeed a heavy premium price  :(


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 02:43:53 PM
Technically the rules don't deny many, many things.   You don't need a stipulation for everything.

What's weird about this is Denarium stood to make an extra 0.4 BTC by simply letting Kebab's higher bid stand.  But they went on a limb and allowed them to lower it, against all logic and convention. Why?  

Because was a clever ruse to drum up interest and get a whale to outbid someone for #1. Nobody took the bait and FOMO bid at 0.81.  

So, they had a tough choice.  Allow the shill to lower the bid and take a reputational hit, so that someone might try to outbid the lower 0.4 instead (because 0.8 was clearly off the mark).  Neither strategies worked, and it's backfiring completely.  

Making matters worse, Lebnor wisely caught wind of this strategy, and also lowered his bid.  It wasn't until this happened that Denarium took an even bigger risk. He stepped in to change the rules for Lebnor using this strategy! Even though Lebnor was lowering it by much less than Kebab did.  Why?  Because the scam was being used against them in away they didn't anticipate (by an actual bidder).

This is total bullshit. I'm really getting tired of this. kebab77 is a prominent bitcoin enthusiast who invested in our company some years ago and is a fan of our products. But he has no position in the company. He trusts me and our company probably more than most other crypto wallet creators so he buys from us. But he is not getting any discounts for the auctions, as is nobody else. For website orders we have discounts for shareholders & employees, but that does not apply to auctions. Due to privacy issues I'm dead locked with this as I can't reveal anyones identity. Not only is that crappy practice but that would be a GDPR violation which would be very bad for our company. So there is nothing I can really do to disprove this conspiracy bullshit other than say that it is absolute BS. You, or anyone claiming this, has the burden of proof, in my opinion. No proof is here, or has never been presented before.

As for rsincognito, we had no relationship to him in the past, he caught wind of this from here or our other marketing and came to bid, just like anyone else. And he paid for the bars just like everyone did, as they have before. Even though we have some newbies bidding everyone has always paid. But it is a sure way to stir up this conspiracy shit.

With the rule change in this auction we thought it would've been a worse move to invalidate rsincognito's bid as it technically follows the rules (to my surprise), than to just let the auction continue. We allowed it to continue. Then it soon became clear everyone else (kebab & lebnor) started doing the same thing, so the auction became ridiculous. That's when we made the move to change the rules, in order to be able to close the auction in a decent timeframe. If we haven't done that, playing around with over and underbids would've continued for maybe hours more. It was already 2 hours past deadline. To us that seemed the worse option. Perhaps the right move would've been to invalidate the lower bid of rsincognito right away, or cancel the whole auction, it's always nice to think about things after the fact. But what was done was done and that's that. We'll learn from this of course.

But overall this continued issue with newbies bidding - there is nothing we can do about that. Our company has 90000 customers in our various crypto services, 1500 shareholders and we promote Denarium stuff to them actively. This always leads to some new people coming to the auctions that are new to Bitcointalk. We can't reveal anyones identity here so it's basically up to you to either trust us or not. I just want to make it clear that there is no proof we have had shills in any of the auctions and in fact I can guarantee that there has been 0 shills in any of our auctions. At least not sponsored by us - it's of course possible some bidders have their own shills. To us what matters is that the products get paid and so far we have a 100% paid rate for our auctions.

What is your solution to this? Deny newbies access to these auctions? And by doing that we disable access to these auctions for the 100k or so people in our network. To be honest I'd rather move the auctions off from here entirely. We've worked now for 4.5 years on Denarium trying to improve our products and make them great collectibles for all of you and what we get increasingly from here is shit. So yes, thank you very much indeed.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 02:58:09 PM
As for the pricing at the website, these special bars were bid in the end 0.414 BTC on average, with the lowest being 0.29 BTC. Based on that and the other bidding activity we priced the bar at the website at around 0.25 BTC. This is the starting price for now, we will adjust these as always in case it's necessary. But it is a limited edition and we'll see how it goes.

Just a reminder that we often give discount coupons for website buyers if they buy multiple products or multiple units of a major product. So feel free to ask for those.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 03:07:47 PM
Just to add, an admin of Bitcointalk could investigate the account activity in our auctions. I'd be happy to even sponsor that work, in order to get some proof against these shilling accusations. As it is really getting quite tiresome.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: teeGUMES on September 05, 2019, 03:25:05 PM
We tell you every single auction.. advice to help with skepticism. Guess how much of that advice you take? Absolutely zero. Skepticism remains.
1+1=2
(Using lots rather than serial free for alls, leaving positive trust feedback for repeat newbie bidders, requesting upfront proof of funds)

The more people yell shill when we see your poorly held auctions the less an outsider can view the above suggestions as shillproof now. There isn't much you can do that I wouldn't figure out a way to have a shill get around it.. and of course my mind stays with the still version and I don't bid.

Wanna know the way out of this one? I request that kebab77 get together his/her:
2oz 2018 Denarium Gold Bar
2x 1oz 2019 Denarium Decennium Gold Bars
1BTC Gold Parity Coin
Username and date on a piece of paper.

Hardly intrusive at all, I just attributed all of those coins belonging to them just through post history.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: hybridsole on September 05, 2019, 03:28:54 PM
it soon became clear everyone else (kebab & lebnor) started doing the same thing, so the auction became ridiculous.

So it's only ridiculous when a non-Denarium investor and friend lowers their bid, gotcha. 

It will also be less weird if these people who are willing to overpay for your collectibles would also, you know, maybe do something other than bid in your auctions.  Perception is reality. I have no proof, and it's not worth any more time than my 0.02 of observations over the years. And a fair warning to other collectors. 


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: JUPITYR on September 05, 2019, 03:32:05 PM
As for the pricing at the website, these special bars were bid in the end 0.414 BTC on average, with the lowest being 0.29 BTC. Based on that and the other bidding activity we priced the bar at the website at around 0.25 BTC. This is the starting price for now, we will adjust these as always in case it's necessary. But it is a limited edition and we'll see how it goes.

Just a reminder that we often give discount coupons for website buyers if they buy multiple products or multiple units of a major product. So feel free to ask for those.

So you are pricing these bars on your website based upon auction prices realized here for the low edition number examples?  Shouldn't it just be cost plus a reasonable margin?  

Spot gold is around $1550 USD.  A $1000 USD premium is really excessive.  I could understand $400-$500, but $1000 for non 1-5 numbered bars feels excessive.  

Note that when you auction the 1/2 BTC gold coins, they typically go for something close to spot, but you still have them marked at a heavier premium on your site.

And for what it's worth, I have bought several items from Denarium over the past few years.  Happy to provide you the details privately to corroborate.  I've never been offered a discount code or coupon.  So not sure how that works.



Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: actmyname on September 05, 2019, 04:36:29 PM
WINNERS OF THE AUCTION!

kebab77 @ 0.45
kebab77 @ 0.45
rsincognito @ 0.44
rsincognito @ 0.44
lebnor @ 0.29
Even if you can bid lower than yourself, you shouldn't be able to bid lower than other people:

1 @ .75
1 @ .72
1 @ 0.8
1 @ 0.43
Current status of the auction:

kebab77 @ 0.80
rsincognito @ 0.75
rsincognito @ 0.72
lebnor @ 0.48
kebab77 @ 0.43
1 @ 0.5
1 @ 0.43


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: pk1978 on September 05, 2019, 04:51:52 PM
@Technomage:

maybe you guys could develop the auction on your own website. Should not take long dev to set up.

then, I am also customer some time, buying once a year for 4 y now, but do not recall any discount codes. :(
maybe you could DM me one if poss? Cheers


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Sat0shisGhost on September 05, 2019, 05:16:22 PM
I got my pitchfork out and agree it looked very shady but based on my investigation (with evidence I won't share publicly for privacy reasons), here's what I think happened:

1. Denarium sent an e-mail to all of their listservs which attracted some people who aren't regulars here. This also explains why they always show up here for just his auctions.
2. They are not regulars here so they screwed up the auction.
3. Denarium allowed them to screw up the auction with his weird rule change and takes the vast majority of the blame.
4. The bidders in the thread are not shills.

Obviously I have 0 tolerance for auction shenanigans and I think the auction should've been re-run. It's also important that we police these auctions because the possibility of scams/fraud is very real.

I'm just trying to warn against lambasting the newbie accounts because at least some of them are definitely real people. I don't think they really stand to gain from the issues with this auction and some of them could eventually become members of this community if we don't scare them off.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: omicron1 on September 05, 2019, 05:47:50 PM
What a f*ckup. Glad I didn't waste my time.
And 1100 over spot is waaaaaayy too high.
Guess they will be stuck with 100 bars.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 05:54:22 PM
So you are pricing these bars on your website based upon auction prices realized here for the low edition number examples?  Shouldn't it just be cost plus a reasonable margin?  

Spot gold is around $1550 USD.  A $1000 USD premium is really excessive.  I could understand $400-$500, but $1000 for non 1-5 numbered bars feels excessive.  

Note that when you auction the 1/2 BTC gold coins, they typically go for something close to spot, but you still have them marked at a heavier premium on your site.

And for what it's worth, I have bought several items from Denarium over the past few years.  Happy to provide you the details privately to corroborate.  I've never been offered a discount code or coupon.  So not sure how that works.

We price only the gold plated coins in this "cost + reasonable margin" manner. All the other coins/bars are limited edition collectibles, which we price on the perceived attractiveness of the product for collectors. Due to this the prices might sometimes also change drastically if we were wrong on our perceptions. Note that it takes a huge amount of man hours to get these products out and usually it's 6 months or something for a 100 piece series. In addition we've done a lot of website development, statistics improvements, coin database improvements etc.

Additionally our company has no problem holding the gold, we see it as a good place to hold value. So we're not in a hurry to empty the reserves. Also if we sell them too cheap we might end up in a situation where we're not selling anything for 6 months (has happened before).

These products are not comparable to regular investment gold, they are special collectibles. This one is probably the best one we've come up with so far. Which is why the initial premium is higher than in our other gold products.

As for discount codes, we rarely offer them by our initiative but often give them if a customer asks. The email is store@denarium.com. They are given if a customer is making a major order or has just recently bought something and is buying again. We don't give them for one-off purchases.

Our marketing at Denarium is not the best, we probably would be better off providing these codes to regulars on our initiative. Something to work on, for sure.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 05:57:28 PM
@Technomage:

maybe you guys could develop the auction on your own website. Should not take long dev to set up.

then, I am also customer some time, buying once a year for 4 y now, but do not recall any discount codes. :(
maybe you could DM me one if poss? Cheers

We've thought of setting up our own auction system for a while, but it hasn't been a dev priority. So we're sticking with this for the time being.

As for discounts please email store@denarium.com and we can probably figure out something. :)


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 05:58:39 PM
I got my pitchfork out and agree it looked very shady but based on my investigation (with evidence I won't share publicly for privacy reasons), here's what I think happened:

1. Denarium sent an e-mail to all of their listservs which attracted some people who aren't regulars here. This also explains why they always show up here for just his auctions.
2. They are not regulars here so they screwed up the auction.
3. Denarium allowed them to screw up the auction with his weird rule change and takes the vast majority of the blame.
4. The bidders in the thread are not shills.

Obviously I have 0 tolerance for auction shenanigans and I think the auction should've been re-run. It's also important that we police these auctions because the possibility of scams/fraud is very real.

I'm just trying to warn against lambasting the newbie accounts because at least some of them are definitely real people. I don't think they really stand to gain from the issues with this auction and some of them could eventually become members of this community if we don't scare them off.

Thanks, it's nice to receive some other feedback than 100% shit. I'm quite okay in taking the blame for the auction underbids / rules fuckup and I truly apologize for that. But I'm not at all okay with the shilling accusations. That is not something we do.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: omicron1 on September 05, 2019, 06:01:13 PM

That's how you handled this auction.
You managed to piss of the whole bct coin collector community.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Anduck on September 05, 2019, 06:51:36 PM
I did get an e-mail from Denarium, with a link to this auction. This e-mail was probably sent to a wide audience with vast majority not being regulars or not interested at all in Bitcointalk or its Collectibles section. There are crypto collectibles buyers and collectors outside this Collectibles community, sometimes this is forgotten by regulars here... BTCC had newbie bidders as well and everyone knew that they were mostly Chinese people who do not use these forums. Like with BTCC, Denarium should be reputable enough already to be known to not employ any shilling or anything like that.

I see absolutely nothing shady in these newbie bidders when they are vouched by Technomage/Denarium to be legit, and I actually wonder why regulars here do not take this vouching seriously and keep questioning it. Denarium has been in business since 2012 and is a very reputable company. Regarding their company owners bidding or buying their items.. Well, there are loads of small owners, myself included, and there should be nothing shady or controversial in that either. I can see how this could be controversial, but in this case it is not as everyone is treated the same and big owners of the company are not bidding, AFAIK.

Regarding these auction events, I think it should be implied by "auction" that bids cannot be lowered. I.e. you can't cancel a bid if it's a winning bid. Especially when this is not stated in the auction. Of course obviously erroneous bids should be cancelled/invalidated though.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: pk1978 on September 05, 2019, 06:57:43 PM

That's how you handled this auction.
You managed to piss of the whole bct coin collector community.

well, with all due respect, its absolutely not true.

Denarium is still the 2nd best physical btc out there (imho, after Casascius),
not sure any other physical coin offers multisig solution,
so all in all this fuck up with the auction did not lower the value of their items in my eyes.
 


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: JUPITYR on September 05, 2019, 07:03:41 PM
So you are pricing these bars on your website based upon auction prices realized here for the low edition number examples?  Shouldn't it just be cost plus a reasonable margin?  

Spot gold is around $1550 USD.  A $1000 USD premium is really excessive.  I could understand $400-$500, but $1000 for non 1-5 numbered bars feels excessive.  

Note that when you auction the 1/2 BTC gold coins, they typically go for something close to spot, but you still have them marked at a heavier premium on your site.

And for what it's worth, I have bought several items from Denarium over the past few years.  Happy to provide you the details privately to corroborate.  I've never been offered a discount code or coupon.  So not sure how that works.

We price only the gold plated coins in this "cost + reasonable margin" manner. All the other coins/bars are limited edition collectibles, which we price on the perceived attractiveness of the product for collectors. Due to this the prices might sometimes also change drastically if we were wrong on our perceptions. Note that it takes a huge amount of man hours to get these products out and usually it's 6 months or something for a 100 piece series. In addition we've done a lot of website development, statistics improvements, coin database improvements etc.

Additionally our company has no problem holding the gold, we see it as a good place to hold value. So we're not in a hurry to empty the reserves. Also if we sell them too cheap we might end up in a situation where we're not selling anything for 6 months (has happened before).

These products are not comparable to regular investment gold, they are special collectibles. This one is probably the best one we've come up with so far. Which is why the initial premium is higher than in our other gold products.

As for discount codes, we rarely offer them by our initiative but often give them if a customer asks. The email is store@denarium.com. They are given if a customer is making a major order or has just recently bought something and is buying again. We don't give them for one-off purchases.

Our marketing at Denarium is not the best, we probably would be better off providing these codes to regulars on our initiative. Something to work on, for sure.

So that was a long way of saying you are arbitrarily overpricing these.  Thank you for confirming.

It's also interesting to learn that you only give discounts to whales who can afford a "major order".  For the record I have ordered often (very recently in fact), not just once, and never received a code.  Guess I know why.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: omicron1 on September 05, 2019, 07:15:38 PM

That's how you handled this auction.
You managed to piss of the whole bct coin collector community.

well, with all due respect, its absolutely not true.

Denarium is still the 2nd best physical btc out there (imho, after Casascius),
not sure any other physical coin offers multisig solution,
so all in all this fuck up with the auction did not lower the value of their items in my eyes.
 

Respect noted, and it's absolutely true since rules were changed in the middle of the auction, you can't do that, they know that, everybody knows that.
- 2nd best? I disagree, although I like this one piece.
- Multisig? Why?
- If you feel like buying 1100 dollar over spot then that's your choice.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 07:30:33 PM
It's also interesting to learn that you only give discounts to whales who can afford a "major order".  For the record I have ordered often (very recently in fact), not just once, and never received a code.  Guess I know why.

Don't misunderstand what I said. We give custom discount codes to regular customers or customers making a large order but only if asked. At least this is how it has been so far. So feel free to ask about it, and you'll get a discount.  :-*


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: anonymousminer on September 05, 2019, 08:02:30 PM
I just hope collectors will just stop buying your substantially overpriced and far too often, subpar products.  (2017 silver nightmares...... extremely SUBPAR, milk spots anyone?)  You’d think a seller gouging his/her buyers would make sure all their products were top notch.  I mean even this bar is stamped with 999 and labeled 9999.  Awesome quality control.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 05, 2019, 11:12:22 PM
I just hope collectors will just stop buying your substantially overpriced and far too often, subpar products.  (2017 silver nightmares...... extremely SUBPAR, milk spots anyone?)  You’d think a seller gouging his/her buyers would make sure all their products were top notch.  I mean even this bar is stamped with 999 and labeled 9999.  Awesome quality control.

This does not reflect the reality at all. We have had significant improvements in quality control over the years. For example we invested around 10k€ recently to build a pressurized clean room for the product assembly and all the products are now assembled in an ultra clean environment. It's to minimize the amount of any type of debris in the products, to make sure they are as clean as possible.

Additionally the checks on product quality are stricter than ever before. For many products we set aside, to not sell, a significant portion of the product we actually have. This happens when there are even minor issues with the quality of a particular item.

We made these changes exactly because there had been issues with some earlier products. The 2017 silver coins were clearly the worst, and it was an issue with the mint. What we did was we pulled the product out from sale, stopped working with that particular mint, and we added a patinated finish on them and they are now on sale again with the patinated finish. Note we have changed the mints we use 5 or so times since 2015. Now we have I think finally found very solid partners to deliver high quality regardless of the material.

There have been no major issues with any of our gold plated brass or copper coins, any of the gold products, and the bull silver/bronze coins of 2016. The first 2015 brass coins (without gold plating) were pretty bad, some of them. And the 2017 silver was a disaster. But we have quickly reacted to these issues and made sure the same issue doesn't repeat and that the quality improves. And it certainly has, quite significantly. We look at each and every feedback our customers give and have reacted based on that.

We are not doing this stuff as a volume factory, it's a really careful process in all stages. Especially nowadays.

And the issue with the .999 / .9999 gold purity is not really a quality control issue. We use the most reputable lab in Finland for this sort of thing and they simply don't have the .9999 stamp. But as I have explained before we get a certificate that shows the actual purity which is .9999 in this case, and we can provide that to any customers if needed. We have considered using a lab outside Finland but so far we have felt it increases the logistics issues quite a bit when handling major gold shipments. As the lab obviously gets all the gold and then randomly tests some of it.

Overall I'm fairly sure our production process is at the moment more sophisticated than most (if not all) other physical bitcoin producers that have ever existed.

This has some side effects though, as sometimes getting a particular product out (like this 10-year anniversary bar) can take quite a while as we've become more and more strict on the quality standards of everything. This was supposed to be launched approximately 6 months ago and we've had the bars for quite a while, but we worked on getting the packaging just right for multiple months. But I think the end result is worth it.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: anonymousminer on September 05, 2019, 11:58:30 PM
You have a BS excuse for everything....    ::)  I wouldn’t even trust you to shine my shoes!!


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Anduck on September 06, 2019, 01:01:46 AM
And the issue with the .999 / .9999 gold purity is not really a quality control issue. We use the most reputable lab in Finland for this sort of thing and they simply don't have the .9999 stamp.

It is apparently illegal to stamp higher than .999 purity for gold in Finland. (Source: https://tukes.fi/en/products-and-services/articles-of-precious-metals-jewellery-and-watches/fineness-solders-filling-and-coatings)


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: anonymousminer on September 06, 2019, 01:34:48 AM
And the issue with the .999 / .9999 gold purity is not really a quality control issue. We use the most reputable lab in Finland for this sort of thing and they simply don't have the .9999 stamp.



It is apparently illegal to stamp higher than .999 purity for gold in Finland. (Source: https://tukes.fi/en/products-and-services/articles-of-precious-metals-jewellery-and-watches/fineness-solders-filling-and-coatings)
Even worse IMO.  Making that bar on purpose with the mismatched marks, seriously?  ::) 



Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Anduck on September 06, 2019, 01:38:10 AM
And the issue with the .999 / .9999 gold purity is not really a quality control issue. We use the most reputable lab in Finland for this sort of thing and they simply don't have the .9999 stamp.



It is apparently illegal to stamp higher than .999 purity for gold in Finland. (Source: https://tukes.fi/en/products-and-services/articles-of-precious-metals-jewellery-and-watches/fineness-solders-filling-and-coatings)
Even worse IMO.  Making that bar on purpose with the mismatched marks, seriously?  ::)  



Quote
If you sell articles of precious metals in Finland, the articles must carry a fineness mark accepted in Finland.  The articles must not carry other fineness marks. The precious metal content of an article must be at least the fineness indicated in the mark; lower finenesses are not allowed.

Their bars only carry these legal .999 purity marks, right? If they had .9999 in the bar, it would be illegally marked. Stating the purity of .9999 in some document is another thing. (And of course you're allowed to stamp .999 on a higher purity bar, everything is alright as long as purity doesn't go below .999 on a .999 stamped item)


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: BG4 on September 06, 2019, 02:10:43 AM
And the issue with the .999 / .9999 gold purity is not really a quality control issue. We use the most reputable lab in Finland for this sort of thing and they simply don't have the .9999 stamp.



It is apparently illegal to stamp higher than .999 purity for gold in Finland. (Source: https://tukes.fi/en/products-and-services/articles-of-precious-metals-jewellery-and-watches/fineness-solders-filling-and-coatings)
Even worse IMO.  Making that bar on purpose with the mismatched marks, seriously?  ::)  



Quote
If you sell articles of precious metals in Finland, the articles must carry a fineness mark accepted in Finland.  The articles must not carry other fineness marks. The precious metal content of an article must be at least the fineness indicated in the mark; lower finenesses are not allowed.

Their bars only carry these legal .999 purity marks, right? If they had .9999 in the bar, it would be illegally marked. Stating the purity of .9999 in some document is another thing. (And of course you're allowed to stamp .999 on a higher purity bar, everything is alright as long as purity doesn't go below .999 on a .999 stamped item)


4 9s .... 3 9s.......  it's all confusing..    but how much do the bars weigh...     that should have been on the bar..  it's weight..   no??

Gold bars with mismatched fineness and no weight on them seem scamish to me...


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: omicron1 on September 06, 2019, 07:11:27 AM

Stop making excuses and man up to your f*ckup.
The lesson is: Don't be greedy.
I like the piece and wanted to purchase it.
But I couldn't look at it without it leaving a bad taste in my mouth because the seller is trying to screw me over.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: JanEmil on September 06, 2019, 07:25:22 AM
Don't get stressed.
One solid seller and many solid buyers. Mixed with gold.
This should be happy talk.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: omicron1 on September 06, 2019, 07:40:19 AM
Don't get stressed.
One solid seller and many solid buyers. Mixed with gold.
This should be happy talk.

There is no stress, just clarification.
Since you joined the discussion can I ask you one question?
- Do you think it's good practice auction rules are changed in the middle of the auction?


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: JanEmil on September 06, 2019, 07:45:44 AM
- Do you think it's good practice auction rules are changed in the middle of the auction?

Doesn't see it as a change. But standard you can't underbid yourself. Don't know why it was promoted as a change.

Maybe only sell one gold item at a time. Looks like it get to complicated to handle for the team.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: omicron1 on September 06, 2019, 07:53:52 AM
- Do you think it's good practice auction rules are changed in the middle of the auction?

Doesn't see it as a change. But standard you can't underbid yourself. Don't know why it was promoted as a change.

Maybe only sell one gold item at a time. Looks like it get to complicated to handle for the team.

CHANGE OF RULES! BIDS CAN NO LONGER BE REPLACED BY LOWER BIDS. IF YOU BID LOWER THAN YOUR PREVIOUS BID, THE NEW BID IS INVALID.

THIS RULE IS VALID AFTER THIS POST.

Get this over with.

Did the rules change? Yes or No?


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: JanEmil on September 06, 2019, 10:25:24 AM
Did the rules change? Yes or No?

In my eyes no. I will say default rule you don't underbid yourself.

But yes it was weird :D


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: N0sferatu on September 06, 2019, 11:26:37 AM
Really weird to accept lower bids.

Just imagine this in a traditional offline auction:

Auctioneer: "Look at this beautiful 1968 Ford Mustang. Merely used so in perfect condition. Bidding starts at 10.000$!"

Bidder A: "10.000!"
Bidder B: "15.000!"
Bidder A: "16.000!"
Bidder B: "150.000!!!"
Bidder A: "..." (leaves the building)

Auctioneer: "Going once, going twice.."

Bidder B: "17.000!"

Auctioneer: "Sold for 17.000$ to bidder B!"

 ;D


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: omicron1 on September 06, 2019, 12:35:43 PM
Did the rules change? Yes or No?

In my eyes no. I will say default rule you don't underbid yourself.

But yes it was weird :D


I have a very low tolerance when it comes to ignorance and denial.
See you at the next auction Denarium will f*ckup! :)


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: JUPITYR on September 06, 2019, 03:01:45 PM
So look, I buy Denarium's stuff.  There products are far from perfect (and rarely grade above an MS67) but I appreciate that there is a current option to purchase trusted physical tokens since Cas and Lealana are out of the game.  (By trusted I mean that everything they do seems to be in the light of day and you can always cross reference coins on their website)

That said, producing a 1oz .999 gold bar should have both weight and purity stamped on it.  Not having the weight is a huge miss in my opinion.

@technomage....you reference several times just getting "shit" from everyone.  I've seen a number of auctions that seemed to go OK.  So perhaps you are being a bit sensitive here?  Maybe best just to own up to some mistakes and say that you guys will work to improve things in the future.  If people pile on after that, then best to ignore and focus on making those improvements.

Also, with respect to pricing....I do think it is shameful to charge the crypto community such high premiums for items.  Yes, I understand that items are limited and time consuming to produce, but that's just how it goes.  I manufacture products (not crypto related) and I can tell you that time investment and limited quantities rarely have anything to do with price or sell through.  The market and consumers dictate the value of things based on utility, adoption, awareness, etc.   A modern 1 oz gold bar carrying a $1000 premium is truly beyond the pale.  So I would strongly urge you guys to reconsider that one.  Especially in light on not having the weight stamped into the bar itself.




Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: jackbauercsgo on September 06, 2019, 03:22:24 PM
Echoing Jupityr above, the professional move is to admit some mistakes, take some responsibility for being at the center of this auction's mess, and move on.  To do anything different signals youth or unprofessional mindsets.  You don't want this.

Additionally, I would recommend building your business model to make some % return on each product and move on.  Let the 2ndary / resale market worry about capturing some profit because of how rare things are.  Did the crypto stamps sell for ~$6.90 retail or did they sell for $2,000+ "because they're rare and limited"?  Or did Mike/Smoothie sell his Cas coins at some massive premium because "they are collector items"?  You get my point - you can't play 2 markets at once.  Focus on one or the other.  

My 2 satoshis.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 07, 2019, 10:08:56 AM
JUPITYR & jackbauercsgo,

I really appreciate the feedback. This is the sort of discussion I'd rather be having.

First of all, I'm 100% taking the blame for the auction underbid/rules issues which caused this auction to go to shit. Even though underbids don't make sense in auctions generally speaking, the rules technically allowed that (at least in our interpretation of the rules), so we made a choice which seemed at the time to be the least worst choice of bad options. Afterwards it has become quite clear it wasn't. So I truly apologize for that and this sort of thing will not happen again.

I was really "triggered" about the shilling accusations which from a certain perspective are understandable, but they are completely baseless. There are valid reasons why our auctions have newbies bidding and they always will, as long as we hold auctions here. And there are some crypto collectors who mostly just collect our stuff, so they are bidding mainly in just our auctions.

As for the pricing of our products, that is a very interesting discussion. Are you guys aware why physical crypto manufacturers seem to disappear a few years after starting out? The real reason, when you look deeper through any possible excuses some of them might have, is that it is not profitable. The crypto collector market is extremely niche and for example Denarium has only been profitable in certain periods of peak bull market. Most of the time it has not been profitable and it is not overall profitable (nowhere near). Denarium still exists because it is subsidized by Prasos from its other crypto business lines that are significantly more profitable. And generally Denarium is 2 to 6% of our company's total revenue. Although I must say the increase in gold value recently has improved Denarium's overall profitability quite significantly, as we've had quite a bit of it in stock. This is a blessing since otherwise it's sort of on thin ice all the time.

We haven't figured out how to fix the profitability with pricing. Our pricing has been fairly dynamic and when we sell them too cheap, we end up in a situation where we have nothing to sell for 4-6 months. This happened in peak times of 2017, and for this we probably lost out on a lot of revenue. After that we've been extremely careful of not underpricing anything, as if we sell our stock, it will take many months before we have something new to sell. Other things affect this also when it is a gold product, as our company sees the gold as an investment as well. Thus we're especially not trying to get the gold products sold asap. They are selling though, just might take some time. For example, the limited edition 1 BTC parity gold coin is almost sold out (as is the 2017 1/2oz gold coin, which we've auctioned here recently).

The issue here also is that even at cost price the gold products are nowhere near spot gold. Now we actually have a mint from where we can get fairly close to spot gold products, but there are so many other costs involved in these products, as we put a lot of work on them.

Currently as it stands our other gold products are pretty much priced in this "cost + reasonable margin" manner. They have room for 10% discounts which we occasionally give to clients and this is the discount our employees & shareholders get. Still leaves profit. But there is no room to really go down more than that (with current gold pricing). Our pricing relative to gold is not dynamic, we do manual changes to pricing if there are major changes in gold value.

The only gold product that clearly has some extra margin is this one, the 10-year bar, as it is the current flagship product and we anticipate the interest to be high (based on how we like the product, how people have reacted to it and how people bid in the auction). And we have already sold many bars after the auction, so it is going decently well. But as I've mentioned before we will adjust pricing at some point for this one to be more in line with the others, in case the sales decline significantly. If they sell slow & steady, we'll keep it as is.

Denarium as a standalone business would've stopped some time ago, that I'm very sure of. The profitability of Prasos' other crypto businesses has kept it going, and improving. At least for now. For collectors I guess it's a good thing when a producer goes under, as only then do the products really start becoming true collectibles.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: BG4 on September 07, 2019, 12:00:46 PM
JUPITYR & jackbauercsgo,

I really appreciate the feedback. This is the sort of discussion I'd rather be having.

First of all, I'm 100% taking the blame for the auction underbid/rules issues which caused this auction to go to shit. Even though underbids don't make sense in auctions generally speaking, the rules technically allowed that (at least in our interpretation of the rules), so we made a choice which seemed at the time to be the least worst choice of bad options. Afterwards it has become quite clear it wasn't. So I truly apologize for that and this sort of thing will not happen again.

I was really "triggered" about the shilling accusations which from a certain perspective are understandable, but they are completely baseless. There are valid reasons why our auctions have newbies bidding and they always will, as long as we hold auctions here. And there are some crypto collectors who mostly just collect our stuff, so they are bidding mainly in just our auctions.

As for the pricing of our products, that is a very interesting discussion. Are you guys aware why physical crypto manufacturers seem to disappear a few years after starting out? The real reason, when you look deeper through any possible excuses some of them might have, is that it is not profitable. The crypto collector market is extremely niche and for example Denarium has only been profitable in certain periods of peak bull market. Most of the time it has not been profitable and it is not overall profitable (nowhere near). Denarium still exists because it is subsidized by Prasos from its other crypto business lines that are significantly more profitable. And generally Denarium is 2 to 6% of our company's total revenue. Although I must say the increase in gold value recently has improved Denarium's overall profitability quite significantly, as we've had quite a bit of it in stock. This is a blessing since otherwise it's sort of on thin ice all the time.

We haven't figured out how to fix the profitability with pricing. Our pricing has been fairly dynamic and when we sell them too cheap, we end up in a situation where we have nothing to sell for 4-6 months. This happened in peak times of 2017, and for this we probably lost out on a lot of revenue. After that we've been extremely careful of not underpricing anything, as if we sell our stock, it will take many months before we have something new to sell. Other things affect this also when it is a gold product, as our company sees the gold as an investment as well. Thus we're especially not trying to get the gold products sold asap. They are selling though, just might take some time. For example, the limited edition 1 BTC parity gold coin is almost sold out (as is the 2017 1/2oz gold coin, which we've auctioned here recently).

The issue here also is that even at cost price the gold products are nowhere near spot gold. Now we actually have a mint from where we can get fairly close to spot gold products, but there are so many other costs involved in these products, as we put a lot of work on them.

Currently as it stands our other gold products are pretty much priced in this "cost + reasonable margin" manner. They have room for 10% discounts which we occasionally give to clients and this is the discount our employees & shareholders get. Still leaves profit. But there is no room to really go down more than that (with current gold pricing). Our pricing relative to gold is not dynamic, we do manual changes to pricing if there are major changes in gold value.

The only gold product that clearly has some extra margin is this one, the 10-year bar, as it is the current flagship product and we anticipate the interest to be high (based on how we like the product, how people have reacted to it and how people bid in the auction). And we have already sold many bars after the auction, so it is going decently well. But as I've mentioned before we will adjust pricing at some point for this one to be more in line with the others, in case the sales decline significantly. If they sell slow & steady, we'll keep it as is.

Denarium as a standalone business would've stopped some time ago, that I'm very sure of. The profitability of Prasos' other crypto businesses has kept it going, and improving. At least for now. For collectors I guess it's a good thing when a producer goes under, as only then do the products really start becoming true collectibles.



All that ........ And No comment on the mismatched fineness and no bar weight?   I think WE should comment on that topic also


Who is WE......  

WE = Denarium. I'm co-founder & Chairman of Prasos which is the company that operates Denarium.



Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 07, 2019, 12:39:19 PM
All that ........ And No comment on the mismatched mint marks and no bar weight?

The questions about the purity markings have been explained in this thread multiple times, and also elaborated on by others. We put the .9999 there as it actually is .9999, and can be proven by a lab certificate. The lab itself only stamps and is allowed to stamp them to up to .999 by law, so that's why the stamp is different.

Just to clarify there are no "mint marks" in this product. The mint puts whatever graphic there that we specify, they don't add anything on their own. What is added afterwards are the lab stamps on the side (by the lab).

As for the 1oz marking, this simply wasn't on the design. The 1oz bar is very small in size and likely our graphics designer simply saved space, not understanding that this isn't the right thing to save space on. Why it went through to production? Good question. We can add this to the list of fuckups I guess! There is internal investigation about this ongoing so I really have no more to say about it at this stage.

Can someone explain to me why the 1oz marking is critical? Other than "it's supposed to be there like always"? I mean practically speaking. You can weigh it to verify it if you like. To me the purity marking is much more relevant. It was a slip up for sure but I have a hard time seeing how it's the end of the world.

It's not like we are the world standard in gold bars and anyone would just trust at face value that our bar is x weight if it has the marking on the bar. Right?

Again, that weight marking, missing or not, has nothing to do with the mint. It's something we either put on the graphic submitted to the mint or not. In this case it was not put in there, for one reason or another. I can get back to that later as we have clarity on this internally.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: BG4 on September 07, 2019, 12:49:31 PM
All that ........ And No comment on the mismatched mint marks and no bar weight?

The questions about the purity markings have been explained in this thread multiple times, and also elaborated on by others. We put the .9999 there as it actually is .9999, and can be proven by a lab certificate. The lab itself only stamps and is allowed to stamp them to up to .999 by law, so that's why the stamp is different.

Just to clarify there are no "mint marks" in this product. The mint puts whatever graphic there that we specify, they don't add anything on their own. What is added afterwards are the lab stamps on the side (by the lab).

As for the 1oz marking, this simply wasn't on the design. The 1oz bar is very small in size and likely our graphics designer simply saved space, not understanding that this isn't the right thing to save space on. Why it went through to production? Good question. We can add this to the list of fuckups I guess! There is internal investigation about this ongoing so I really have no more to say about it at this stage.

Can someone explain to me why the 1oz marking is critical? Other than "it's supposed to be there like always"? I mean practically speaking. You can weigh it to verify it if you like. To me the purity marking is much more relevant. It was a slip up for sure but I have a hard time seeing how it's the end of the world.

It's not like we are the world standard in gold bars and anyone would just trust at face value that our bar is x weight if it has the marking on the bar. Right?

Again, that weight marking, missing or not, has nothing to do with the mint. It's something we either put on the graphic submitted to the mint or not. In this case it was not put in there, for one reason or another. I can get back to that later as we have clarity on this internally.

All other gold and Silver  Denarium coins have weight marked on them.... Why did you do it there and not this one......???  

and Real Gold bars with mismatched fineness marks and no weight ..   give me the perception that the maker doesn't know what they were doing...  maybe you should stick to base metal coins....

Was it a slip up and you just decided to sell it anyway,  or is this new to you after production and you don't know that you are doing???   because your auction skills show... you don't know what you are doing....
 



Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: JUPITYR on September 07, 2019, 12:58:24 PM
@technomage

If Denarium is not a profitable business, then you should honestly consider closing it down.  There is no reason to keep a company going that isn't profitable, or expected to be profitable at some point in the future, unless that business serves some greater humanitarian or societal need AND can at least be self-sustaining.  Minting physical cryptos is certainly not a humanitarian need and by your account it does not appear to be self-sustaining business model.  So why keep something going that is basically a losing proposition?  

Crypto fans will get along just fine with or without a Denarium.  Nice to have it as an option, but certainly not the end of the world for anyone if not.  To answer your question though, I have looked into it and decided not to mint physical crypto coins precisely because it is not profitable to do so.



Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 07, 2019, 12:58:32 PM
All other gold and Silver  Denarium coins have weight marked on them.... Why did you do it there and not this one......???

I explained already the most likely reason. We had discussion about the small size of the bar and its limitations during the production process and compromises were made with the contents of the graphics. The 1oz marking was skipped by the designer to save space, and it went unnoticed as no one thought it was that critical. Also this product experienced large delays for multiple reasons which distracted the team quite a bit. We meant to launch it pretty much in January-February originally.

This was clearly a slip up, any potential future precious metal products will again have the weight mark of course. Then again perhaps some one will think this is special in some way. Collectors sometimes value errors. But I guess we'll see about that :)

Was it a slip up and you just decided to sell it anyway,  or is this new to you after production and you don't know that you are doing???

We had no idea about this until it was mentioned in this thread. As I tried to explain earlier I have difficulty seeing the critical importance of that, as did probably everyone else in the team. That's why it went unnoticed. I'm still lacking any answers as to why it's that important.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 07, 2019, 01:07:44 PM
@technomage

If Denarium is not a profitable business, then you should honestly consider closing it down.  There is no reason to keep a company going that isn't profitable, or expected to be profitable at some point in the future, unless that business serves some greater humanitarian or societal need AND can at least be self-sustaining.  Minting physical cryptos is certainly not a humanitarian need and by your account it does not appear to be self-sustaining business model.  So why keep something going that is basically a losing proposition?  

Crypto fans will get along just fine with or without a Denarium.  Nice to have it as an option, but certainly not the end of the world for anyone if not.  To answer your question though, I have looked into it and decided not to mint physical crypto coins precisely because it is not profitable to do so.

We've been considering that for a while now, and the operation has in some ways been changed recently to cut costs. We might only publish one product for the year 2020 it looks like, if any. And this one is the last new product for this year. Except we'll probably continue auctioning all kinds of production prototypes of the past, they seem to be quite interesting to collectors.

What we've noticed is that even though we don't put out a lot of products, we still put out too much for the size of the collector market. The amount of products from all these little producers and all the old products, has completely oversaturated the market. Yes, some amount always gets sold, but it's problematic. We've of course been secretly hoping that even more producers go under, to balance it out. But new ones always pop up for a while until they figure out it's not solid business wise.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: BG4 on September 07, 2019, 01:09:27 PM
All other gold and Silver  Denarium coins have weight marked on them.... Why did you do it there and not this one......???

I explained already the most likely reason. We had discussion about the small size of the bar and its limitations during the production process and compromises were made with the contents of the graphics. The 1oz marking was skipped by the designer to save space, and it went unnoticed as no one thought it was that critical. Also this product experienced large delays for multiple reasons which distracted the team quite a bit. We meant to launch it pretty much in January-February originally.

This was clearly a slip up, any potential future precious metal products will again have the weight mark of course. Then again perhaps some one will think this is special in some way. Collectors sometimes value errors. But I guess we'll see about that :)

Was it a slip up and you just decided to sell it anyway,  or is this new to you after production and you don't know that you are doing???

We had no idea about this until it was mentioned in this thread. As I tried to explain earlier I have difficulty seeing the critical importance of that, as did probably everyone else in the team. That's why it went unnoticed. I'm still lacking any answers as to why it's that important.


And this is why you should stick to Base Metal coins.....


maybe you shouldn't have spent all that money on that "CLEAN ROOM..."


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: JUPITYR on September 07, 2019, 01:17:58 PM
All that ........ And No comment on the mismatched mint marks and no bar weight?

Can someone explain to me why the 1oz marking is critical? Other than "it's supposed to be there like always"? I mean practically speaking. You can weigh it to verify it if you like. To me the purity marking is much more relevant. It was a slip up for sure but I have a hard time seeing how it's the end of the world.

It's not like we are the world standard in gold bars and anyone would just trust at face value that our bar is x weight if it has the marking on the bar. Right?


There are ISO standards for just about every product, including precious metals, gems, jewellery, etc.

At a minimum your bars would likely not be eligible for any gold-backed IRA accounts as they bar itself does not contain both weight and purity stamps.

There could also be issues with respect to importation into various countries where a customs official or broker cannot properly determine a tariff value without both pieces of information being evident.  Yes, it has other documentation with it now, but assume 10 years from now when the paperwork is lost or no longer with the bar.  In theory these little beauties will outlast us all, so it should not have to rely on a degradable piece of paper always accompanying it to speak to its weight in gold.

Some countries may also have laws against importing bullion products without the proper stamping.  You'd probably just need to research to make sure you are in compliance with the laws of the countries you are shipping to.

Those are just some quick thoughts and reasons as to why it's an issue, besides simply not adhering to collector's expectations.  Also, if there was no room in the obverse or reverse for the weight, you could consider using the edges of the bar.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 07, 2019, 02:30:49 PM
There are ISO standards for just about every product, including precious metals, gems, jewellery, etc.

At a minimum your bars would likely not be eligible for any gold-backed IRA accounts as they bar itself does not contain both weight and purity stamps.

There could also be issues with respect to importation into various countries where a customs official or broker cannot properly determine a tariff value without both pieces of information being evident.  Yes, it has other documentation with it now, but assume 10 years from now when the paperwork is lost or no longer with the bar.  In theory these little beauties will outlast us all, so it should not have to rely on a degradable piece of paper always accompanying it to speak to its weight in gold.

Some countries may also have laws against importing bullion products without the proper stamping.  You'd probably just need to research to make sure you are in compliance with the laws of the countries you are shipping to.

Those are just some quick thoughts and reasons as to why it's an issue, besides simply not adhering to collector's expectations.  Also, if there was no room in the obverse or reverse for the weight, you could consider using the edges of the bar.

Thanks for the response, this is useful. There are various shipping restrictions with gold even though the previous ones have the correct markings, but we have solved them with proper delivery partners and simply shut out some countries where the issue is insurmountable due to local regulations. We certainly hope this doesn't lead to any further shipping / customs issues as it is already a bit of a pain.

We recently invested in a metal engraving machine which we are going to use to offer customizable physical bitcoins, in theory we could use that to engrave the marking to these bars afterwards. It doesn't affect the gold content as the process doesn't remove any metal. Not sure if this is a legit way of fixing this issue or if it's simply unfixable, we will investigate this thoroughly. Definitely a bummer, as we worked really hard on this, but managed to miss a small but important detail.

Feel free to twist the knife guys but rest assured the me and the rest of the team are embarrassed to the max about this silly mistake.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: ChiBitCTy on September 07, 2019, 02:36:03 PM
Just a few pieces of advice from reading your orig. reply to dolph and jack.  A company going under doesn't necessarily make their products more valuable, if even at all...a limited mintage, well designed, and reasonably priced product is what will help make a collectible valuable down the road.  Collectors don't hope for a maker to go under, any one of us regulars here would kill for Smoothie and or Casascius to come back with a few more pieces!

The problem here with Denarium, as I see it, is trying to make the collectibles a sizable portion of your overall business, in which to make money to keep your shareholders profitable/happy.  In doing so, you're mass producing items at a cost well above what a new release should be at, and in return, driving potential buyers away for good.

I would also recommend reaching out to some of the biggest collectors here and ask them what the community is "dying to see".  There's no doubt that this sub here on btalk is by far the number one place in the world to buy/sell physical crypto items to the most passionate collectors on earth.  Heed the advice/suggestions of these collectors and you very well could see your items not collecting dust on shelves for prolonged periods of time. 

Taking this advice might not be as profitable in the short term, but sure could be in the long run, IMHO.  Hope you find this as constructive criticism and not bashing Denarium. 


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 07, 2019, 02:48:40 PM
...Hope you find this as constructive criticism and not bashing Denarium.

Large majority of the money Denarium has made is from the limited edition items made for collectors (gold, silver, bronze and so on). The brass/copper coins would have to be selling at different magnitudes of volume to make real money, and even if we managed to get that demand, then we'd run into major production issues with our current tools/methods. So it's challenging in many ways. Of course the cheaper coins have been good for spreading the word, so they are more for the promotion. They have been drastically improved as well, value for money is quite solid with the most recent gold plated copper 2019 coins.

We could try limited editions even smaller, but there we run into another challenge which is that the mint cost becomes significantly higher per item. And selling any type of limited edition series with a small margin does not work financially speaking. The constant employee costs are too high compared to the volume, margin and the rate of new product series coming out. And this stuff is difficult to make any cheaper, as the process has to be highly secure, supervised, and carefully done overall. Also we've tried to separate ourselves by really focusing on nice packaging, which is a lot of work.

In anycase I definitely appreciate this type of feedback and find it highly constructive. We don't want to drive away collectors as they have been the most important customers to us. We've made mistakes but we always work on them, and we try to make sure that we don't repeat the same mistake again. Just getting slightly desperate about this as the crypto collector market is a super niche already, and if we've managed to alienate a major part of it, then that's pretty much that.



Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: micgoossens on September 07, 2019, 03:13:35 PM
CHANGE OF RULES! BIDS CAN NO LONGER BE REPLACED BY LOWER BIDS. IF YOU BID LOWER THAN YOUR PREVIOUS BID, THE NEW BID IS INVALID.

THIS RULE IS VALID AFTER THIS POST.

Get this over with.

Changing rules mid-auction?   you gotta be kidding me.......   ???

I'm happy I was busy and forgot about this auction, that was a seriously F***ed up rule  ::)

Though pity I missed out, I was seriously intrested in bidding for one of those beauty bars :D


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: BG4 on September 07, 2019, 03:27:34 PM
...Hope you find this as constructive criticism and not bashing Denarium.

Large majority of the money Denarium has made is from the limited edition items made for collectors (gold, silver, bronze and so on). The brass/copper coins would have to be selling at different magnitudes of volume to make real money, and even if we managed to get that demand, then we'd run into major production issues with our current tools/methods. So it's challenging in many ways. Of course the cheaper coins have been good for spreading the word, so they are more for the promotion. They have been drastically improved as well, value for money is quite solid with the most recent gold plated copper 2019 coins.

We could try limited editions even smaller, but there we run into another challenge which is that the mint cost becomes significantly higher per item. And selling any type of limited edition series with a small margin does not work financially speaking. The constant employee costs are too high compared to the volume, margin and the rate of new product series coming out. And this stuff is difficult to make any cheaper, as the process has to be highly secure, supervised, and carefully done overall. Also we've tried to separate ourselves by really focusing on nice packaging, which is a lot of work.

In anycase I definitely appreciate this type of feedback and find it highly constructive. We don't want to drive away collectors as they have been the most important customers to us. We've made mistakes but we always work on them, and we try to make sure that we don't repeat the same mistake again. Just getting slightly desperate about this as the crypto collector market is a super niche already, and if we've managed to alienate a major part of it, then that's pretty much that.



Is this the reason for Auction rule Number 1  ....      


  you are on a roll with the honesty with the last few posts .........


Auction rules

When you post a bid, the bids in your previous posts are considered to be automatically canceled. You can put multiple bids in one post, however.
- If two people bid at the same price, the person who bid first will be first in line to win a bar.
- Bids are considered invalid and will be ignored if they do not specify the price of the bid and the number of bars (if it is more than one bar) the bidder is bidding for, or if they could not possibly win any slots.


 Is this the shit (WE) sit around in the boardroom thinking about  ?????

 Do your 1500 investors know you promote Denarium products like this....   Do the Prasos board members know you promote Denarium products like this...???

Who is WE......  

WE =  Denarium. I'm co-founder & Chairman of Prasos which is the company that operates Denarium.






Technically the rules don't deny many, many things.   You don't need a stipulation for everything.

What's weird about this is Denarium stood to make an extra 0.4 BTC by simply letting Kebab's higher bid stand.  But they went on a limb and allowed them to lower it, against all logic and convention. Why?  

Because was a clever ruse to drum up interest and get a whale to outbid someone for #1. Nobody took the bait and FOMO bid at 0.81.  

So, they had a tough choice.  Allow the shill to lower the bid and take a reputational hit, so that someone might try to outbid the lower 0.4 instead (because 0.8 was clearly off the mark).  Neither strategies worked, and it's backfiring completely.  

Making matters worse, Lebnor wisely caught wind of this strategy, and also lowered his bid.  It wasn't until this happened that Denarium took an even bigger risk. He stepped in to change the rules for Lebnor using this strategy! Even though Lebnor was lowering it by much less than Kebab did.  Why?  Because the scam was being used against them in away they didn't anticipate (by an actual bidder).

This is total bullshit. I'm really getting tired of this. kebab77 is a prominent bitcoin enthusiast who invested in our company some years ago and is a fan of our products. But he has no position in the company. He trusts me and our company probably more than most other crypto wallet creators so he buys from us. But he is not getting any discounts for the auctions, as is nobody else. For website orders we have discounts for shareholders & employees, but that does not apply to auctions. Due to privacy issues I'm dead locked with this as I can't reveal anyones identity. Not only is that crappy practice but that would be a GDPR violation which would be very bad for our company. So there is nothing I can really do to disprove this conspiracy bullshit other than say that it is absolute BS. You, or anyone claiming this, has the burden of proof, in my opinion. No proof is here, or has never been presented before.

As for rsincognito, we had no relationship to him in the past, he caught wind of this from here or our other marketing and came to bid, just like anyone else. And he paid for the bars just like everyone did, as they have before. Even though we have some newbies bidding everyone has always paid. But it is a sure way to stir up this conspiracy shit.

With the rule change in this auction we thought it would've been a worse move to invalidate rsincognito's bid as it technically follows the rules (to my surprise), than to just let the auction continue. We allowed it to continue. Then it soon became clear everyone else (kebab & lebnor) started doing the same thing, so the auction became ridiculous. That's when we made the move to change the rules, in order to be able to close the auction in a decent timeframe. If we haven't done that, playing around with over and underbids would've continued for maybe hours more. It was already 2 hours past deadline. To us that seemed the worse option. Perhaps the right move would've been to invalidate the lower bid of rsincognito right away, or cancel the whole auction, it's always nice to think about things after the fact. But what was done was done and that's that. We'll learn from this of course.

But overall this continued issue with newbies bidding - there is nothing we can do about that. Our company has 90000 customers in our various crypto services, 1500 shareholders and we promote Denarium stuff to them actively. This always leads to some new people coming to the auctions that are new to Bitcointalk. We can't reveal anyones identity here so it's basically up to you to either trust us or not. I just want to make it clear that there is no proof we have had shills in any of the auctions and in fact I can guarantee that there has been 0 shills in any of our auctions. At least not sponsored by us - it's of course possible some bidders have their own shills. To us what matters is that the products get paid and so far we have a 100% paid rate for our auctions.

What is your solution to this? Deny newbies access to these auctions? And by doing that we disable access to these auctions for the 100k or so people in our network. To be honest I'd rather move the auctions off from here entirely. We've worked now for 4.5 years on Denarium trying to improve our products and make them great collectibles for all of you and what we get increasingly from here is shit. So yes, thank you very much indeed.







Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: BG4 on September 07, 2019, 06:33:44 PM
Wait...   I have more questions......

Since you come here looking for investors....

and in Bitcointalk.org/collectibles  fashion

I am wondering the stability of such a company..

Can you show the forum a picture of  the 100 gold bars with your name on a piece of paper

Im sure some Pictures were taked of such a display to see....


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Anduck on September 07, 2019, 06:50:45 PM
Wait...   I have more questions......

Since you come here looking for investors....

and in Bitcointalk.org/collectibles  fashion

I am wondering the stability of such a company..

Can you show the forum a picture of  the 100 gold bars with your name on a piece of paper

Im sure some Pictures were taked of such a display to see....

You sound like you have a beef with Denarium/Technomage. Do you seriously doubt that Denarium does not have the gold bars they're selling, or what is this about?

Regarding your questions about who is "we", I see that Technomage means himself and other people in charge of Denarium products in the company called Prasos. I don't see why it should be relevant to you who are these other people working in the company. Companies usually do not share information about their employees anyway, and there is zero reason to demand such info.


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: BG4 on September 07, 2019, 07:05:57 PM
Are any  of my questions not valid questions...????


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: pk1978 on September 07, 2019, 07:13:37 PM
I think Denarium shared more than enough info to be honest, actually a lot more than expected.
and I am sure they have the 100 gold bars, or they are capable of producing them on a short time frame if orders were made, I dont see why it is relevant.
(if they failed an order, than its different question, but so far, any time I ordered, I got the shipment in a week or so)


Title: Re: Special Auction for 5x Denarium Bitcoin Decennium 2019 Gold Bars
Post by: Technomage on September 07, 2019, 07:27:02 PM
Denarium has been selling physical crypto since 2015 to all over the world and has been 100% reliable. We have produced almost 13000 physical bitcoins, here are some statistics: https://status.denarium.com/coin/

What is bought from us, will be delivered.

About the auction rules, the rules have been more or less the same since the first auction years ago. We simply copied the rules from Theymos ad slot auction (if I remember correctly) or some other prominent auctioner. They made sense generally. Now we'll make a small adjustment due to what happened here.