Bitcoin Forum

Hi,

the zombie of MTGOX is not dead yet.
I am posting here to get this topic more exposure.
It is cross posted in the Russian Section under Legal - which doesn't get that many views. i'm not sure if i can ask them to move it to a different section over there.

Some MTGOX creditors were approached by a Russian law firm (ZP Legal zplegal.ru) saying that they are likely able to recover 170,000 to 200,000 btc from criminals in Russia.
They are not specific if these coins were directly the ones stolen from mtgox over the years or if these criminals are going to be paying out of pocket.
details are scarce, they are keeping information secret on purpose. they are asking creditors to sign over their rights under UK contract law since contingency fees are a grey area in Russia.

Currently they are demanding about 50% + $320/hour for their work. (their previous offer cost even more).
They are making claims that only they can recover and creditors would be unable to use other law firms because records of this case will be sealed.
The bankruptcy trustee is aware of this situation and is looking into it, it appears they have been uncooperative with him before.
As it stands, no one really knows anything, so ALL assistance is greatly appreciated.
It is uncertain what this has to do with Vinnik, or what criminals are involved. If you are familiar with the law firm zplegal.ru (who made this offer to creditors) or can assist with the confusing Russian criminal system please comment or reach out privately.
There is a "deadline" for claims through the law firm coming up and people are already sending their documents over to them and singing contracts.
a few more details in the post over in the Russian section:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5179121.0

And are you sure that this law firm you speak of is legit?
This sounds like a con job in itself. Big lawfirms do not demand money in advance. Only after they have recovered your money. On top of that, they would not even take up a case if they think it is not winnable.
I suggest you make investigations on whether this lawfirm that approached you is real or a phony group of guys looking to take you for a ride.

Absolute bullshit.

There has been no mention of this from legitimate sources and absolutely no mention of any coins other than the ones dug out by Mark Karpeles.

And how does a bunch of scum lawyers recover coins with no mention of Russian law enforcement? Some criminals felt bad so they get in touch and handed over their money? That must be the first time it's happened in the history of this solar system.

This 'law firm' is trying to con people.

The law firm is legit from what we can tell. They have been around several years. Lawyers there have semi public profiles.
We are limited with our Russian, we are also not currently aware of their client list.
They are not asking anything upfront they are asking to be compensated based on recovery at their posted rates.
It's real, the situation is not fully being explained and people are jumping at it because "something is better" than nothing.
I'm assisting with getting more due diligence done.

Thanks for your point of view, half the people share this view, the other half share the view that they can get back something and that's all they are focusing on.
This stash could be tied to Vinnik, btce, associates, it's currently unknown who they are planning to go after, or how directly the bitcoin is tied to the hack
They are working on contingency, meaning if they don't recover, they don't get paid (from what I am understanding). However, there are other risks, like signing documents and handing over all personal info, besides giving away a majority of whatever may be recovered. So far a lot of speculation - they have yet to release an official statement publicly, only using intermediaries so far.

Unless they're going through law enforcement or the Mt Gox creditor I don't see how it can have any legitimacy.

Vinnik is still buried in extradition stuff. BTC-e is dust. If Vinnik, or anyone else, does have any coins they will be handled by whatever court they're convicted by, not predatory lawyers who turn up out of nowhere on the internet.

They are seeking mtgox creditors to give them the rights to pursue the bitcoin on their behalf. They are saying they are going to be working with law enforcement/courts? who knows. No additional useful information has been provided. This is Russia after all so we can't discredit the amount of fuckery possible.

This is true.

My second home is in Holland. I travel to Russia about a hundred times a year for business. I even invested in a small mining farm there.
I know the level of shittery that goes on in there.
But this is absolute fishy. Most probably a scam or a long con where these so called legit law firm would run away with someone's money in the end.
I'll bet my ass on it!

Thanks, while your view is shared by many, we'd also love to be able to understand the situation a bit better. Do you have contacts in Russia that may be able to share their thoughts as well? Mind asking them?

Lawyers cannot predict outcomes, even if there is a 'slam dunk' case.


There is probably a reason for this, if it is true.

The trustee is the only entity who is entitled to receive assets from anyone who owes MtGox money. If you hired these lawyers, you would need to pay the entire cost out of your own pocket, and could not agree to allow the lawyer to receive a percentage of the recovered assets, unless you are paying this fee out of your own pocket as well. If the trustee does not want to hire these lawyers, there is really not much you can do.

All of the above does not account for the fact this sounds like a scam.

"their deadline" approaches in a few days. they have agreed to make public statements themselves but have so far not provided anything

It remains my opinion that the people you are describing are attempting to scam you and/or other gox creditors.

If there is money to be recovered, there is no reason you need to use a specific lawyer. Any lawyer who is authorized to practice law can represent you (or the MtGox creditors) in the particular jurisdiction the case would need to be filed.

I am also unsure if the lawyers would even be able to represent the creditors at all without the consent of the trustee, even if a third party is paying them separately. Thinking about this more, I don’t think this is possible

their whole angle is that Russian courts/law are so unique that only some lawyers are able to get things done *wink wink*???
you presented logical statements, that I personally agree with however, if there IS money to be recovered understanding the actual situation would be a good start
the trustee has been aware of this for a while, and he has made no public statement yet.

Is this in any way related to Vasiliev's arrest in Italy? Because aside from Vinnik, he's the only one to have been arrested, no? Others are living happily on money stolen from gox & others/btc-e/wex.

Either way, I'd be extremely suspicious if someone acts as if there's an urgency, that's often the hallmark of a scammer.

Someone kindly referred me over to this thread seeking info when I posted a new thread in another section. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5183299.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5183299.0)

If you find out any more, please let me know.

Right now mtgoxlegal.com and this new russianrecovery.com site are the only two decent places (other than telegram) for discussion and information (You can include reddit r/mtgoxinsolvency if you want to be really generous). MGL is quite divided into camps kind of like you mentioned, and the RR site is pretty new and it's currently unclear what will be revealed there, although their stated intentions are sound good.  (But of course I'm skeptical of just about anything related to this after being screwed by Mt. Gox for so many years)

Thanks and I hope to find some real answers too.

https://www.coindesk.com/2-billion-lost-in-mt-gox-bitcoin-hack-can-be-recovered-lawyer-claims

Russia doesn’t have any real rule of law and there is lots of corruption throughout the government including the court system.

If you have money stolen from you that ended up in Russia, I would consider it lost. The law firm in question may be taking such a hefty fee because they need to pay kickbacks to government officials.

In any case, the amounts being asked for far exceed normal contingency fees charged by western lawyers. 

That article certainly fleshes a few things out but the whole thing still reads like something that's EXTREMELY speculative. They're basically saying there might be some money and they might get it but they're not sure who from yet.

If they're aiming for Vinnik's money then surely first he has to land in Russia and other jurisdictions definitely won't want that to happen. And since he's a professional money launderer I assume the money is deeply buried if there's any left. I can't see him neatly parking some BTC in a jar in the kitchen for a rainy day.

in their released QA, i'll link in a bit they say they would not be bribing anyone and make "guarantees" everything is above the board --- rolls eyes

If you are in concurrence that government officials will be bribed to recover the money, I am not sure why you are promoting this law firm...

look at my original post and see if I am promoting them or not. Also, I welcome suggestions about OTHER law firms. I am doing due diligence and personally against the deal and will not be signing on in it's current form

Hey, if it gets a result then why not? I'd be amazed if it does but I get the impression that in Russia you need to murder three people and pay off four or five others just to get your hands on a quality roll of toilet paper.  

With the amount of money involved, (if it's not a scam, and it probably is) there might not be another way, everyone wants their cut.

For starters, bribing (foreign) government officials is both unethical and illegal in much of the world.

There is also the issue that if government officials are being bribed to take money from one person to give to you, the money may not actually belong to you, but rather, it could be that it just so happen that the person who the government is taking money from just so happens to have a lot of money.

I do think it appears the OP is promoting the law firm's offer by his activity in this thread.

No offense, but I think your comprehension skills suck. Discussing an event that came up and trying to get more information appears to mean promotion to you. Anyways, I'd hope you have more to contribute than dumb accusations about me

Here is the revised proposal in detail, this is version 2.0, the 1st one was just the engagement agreement
https://www.docdroid.net/cyWpPDT/zp-and-mt-gox-proposal-qa-and-ea-12sep19.pdf

deadline passed. About 15,000 bitcoin worth of claims were signed up with the law firm.
There is strong suspicion it may be a play to get Vinnik extradited to Russia, based on creditor's damages files with Greece.
People are watching news related to Vinnik, Vasilev and the btce/wex admin hiding in Siberia.
Trustee will provide some insight on Oct 1st

Like a missing piece of a puzzle, other than a potential money grab or a scam, this one could be the reason why this proposal/firm is still being shilled for more than a day or two since their first announcement.

Here is a coindesk article from yesterday?
https://www.coindesk.com/for-desperate-mt-gox-victims-long-shot-bitcoin-deal-beats-endless-wait

several other law firms were contacted and were not interested in dealing with looking into this matter.
Unfortunately, there is no one in Russia to take lead on this situation.

https://www.coindesk.com/mt-gox-trustee-asked-doj-to-share-info-on-jailed-btc-e-owner-alexander-vinnik

https://www.coindesk.com/criminal-case-against-failed-wex-exchange-points-at-russian-law-enforcement