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Bitcoin => Mining support => Topic started by: lucifsg on October 15, 2019, 11:34:50 PM



Title: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: lucifsg on October 15, 2019, 11:34:50 PM
Hi ,
i immersed my T3 50T in mineral oil and it didnt work . I had about 7 days an A9 , borrowed from a friend and everything worked fine in oil . So after that passing the test i used the same oil on my T3.

I split the main unit from the psu (it comes as one unit ) and immersed the unit in oil , same as i did with the A9 . 30 seconds after powering it up smoke came out , 15 secs later again the same and then there were small bubbles with smoke coming out  out of the fans, poping once they came to surface so i powered it off.

Any ideas about what went wrong  ?

Video https://youtu.be/cMz9V0C5Yik

link of the miner :
https://www.innosilicon.com/html/t3-50t-miner/index.html

Thanks in advance


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Pyrojason on October 16, 2019, 04:48:50 AM
Can you explain in more detail how you have the oil cooling set up?

Something sounds seriously wrong to have smoke bubbles.


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Steamtyme on October 16, 2019, 05:24:48 AM
First I thought this might be because it sounds like you still have your fan hooked up and spinning. Not sure if that's the case, but the only setups I've seen the fans are disconnected if I'm not mistaken. Either cheated at the control board or using immersion firmware. Then i had this thought.
Just looked up what the A9 is. Is this the grin miner GPU Looking thing? If so that says it draws 500w you are now using a machine that draws  3100w +. I would guess you are not circulating and cooling your oil well enough to remove heat.


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: lucifsg on October 16, 2019, 06:35:15 AM
First I thought this might be because it sounds like you still have your fan hooked up and spinning. Not sure if that's the case, but the only setups I've seen the fans are disconnected if I'm not mistaken. Either cheated at the control board or using immersion firmware. Then i had this thought.
Just looked up what the A9 is. Is this the grin miner GPU Looking thing? If so that says it draws 500w you are now using a machine that draws  3100w +. I would guess you are not circulating and cooling your oil well enough to remove heat.

Hi, it doesn't have to do with heat, cause the miner was broken in under one minute since powering it in oil. The oil was still cold.

Can you explain in more detail how you have the oil cooling set up?

Something sounds seriously wrong to have smoke bubbles.

I didn't get to the point I had to cool the oil. It all happen in 30 seconds. Funny thing is the miner was still on, though never connected to mine.
For the record I had a radiator with 9 fans on it but the oil was still cold.


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Pyrojason on October 16, 2019, 06:46:09 AM
Hi, it doesn't have to do with heat, cause the miner was broken in under one minute since powering it in oil. The oil was still cold.

What kind of oil was used? If it isn't heat, its conductivity. As Steamtyme said - most of the setups have the fans removed and bypass chips are used on the fan pin jacks. You'd need a way to circulate the oil or use a bubbler in the way myself and others have designed.

If you had an immediate failure, find out what happened because it sounds like something seriously shorted out and if your oil is non-conductive as it should be, this short is likely to have been caused by something else.


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: lucifsg on October 16, 2019, 11:31:53 AM
Can't be heat because the miner didn't had tha chance to sync and start mining.
I used paraffin oil pharmaceutical / cosmetic grade.
Fans were and are working even now if I power it up as does the entire machine. It does power up and just won't sync or do anything other than staying idle
I ll try upload a video in an hour or two.



Here is the video

https://youtu.be/cMz9V0C5Yik

By watching it over and over again I noticed the bubbles coming from the center of the fan. I also noticed that just one seems to be working. So can it be that the fans burned due to the liquid resistance?


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Biffa on October 16, 2019, 04:30:43 PM
Bingo


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Steamtyme on October 16, 2019, 05:08:42 PM
So can it be that the fans burned due to the liquid resistance?
Makes sense I wasn't positive but using a fan designed for moving air to operate in liquid is way outside it's design. Especially when these fans tend to try and ramp up to 100% on startup before slowing down while the unit goes through it's start-up procedure. Hopefully that's the only thing that 's  the only thing messed up, you won't get warranty but should be able to source a new fan.


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: philipma1957 on October 16, 2019, 06:07:07 PM
or buy a fan spoof chip

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-PRO-Miner-fan-simulator-Antminer-Bitmain-for-oil-immersion-asic-cooling/264261506973

note:  I just went to ebay  and posted the first one I could find.

I do not know the seller.


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Steamtyme on October 16, 2019, 06:14:40 PM
That's pretty much a must if they continue with the immersion cooling. I'm still not convinced they have the appropriate cooling setup, for 3100W minus the fan draw. In the meantime that unit is losing money by the day being down. So I would order both, unless they are positive this will work with the cooling setup they have.

In the meantime if you have 2 S9's you could try them as a test for tour cooling setup. Or any older miners just for a stress test. Would hate to see you get up and running again only to hit another wall.


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Pyrojason on October 16, 2019, 09:13:44 PM
[...]

Can you still access to the configuration for the miner?


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: lucifsg on October 16, 2019, 10:09:49 PM
Can you still access to the configuration for the miner?

Yes i can . But it shows the initial "syncing" screen of innosilicon . I can navigate through the tabs as far as i remember .

Is there any chance i could access it by ssh and bypass the fans from there?


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Artemis3 on October 17, 2019, 10:29:05 PM
By watching it over and over again I noticed the bubbles coming from the center of the fan. I also noticed that just one seems to be working. So can it be that the fans burned due to the liquid resistance?

The moral of the story: Never submerge air blowing fans into liquids lol.

As others have said, you need either a "solid state" (chip) fan simulator, or a firmware that lets you start without fans. Some lazy people just place the fans outside the liquid, extending the wires if needed. Too bad you already burnt yours...


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Pyrojason on October 18, 2019, 05:41:03 AM
Is there any chance i could access it by ssh and bypass the fans from there?
For best pool compatibility and reliability I would purchase some of the fan-bypass chips mentioned by several members and leave the firmware stock.
For now you could indeed try leaving the fans connected and hang them out of the oil- however, if they're already burnt it might be an issue. It sounds like something you'll have to experiment with. I wouldn't get any hacked firmware to begin with but so far there aren't very many reliable ways to bypass the fans other than a hardware solution. Hopefully you find a way to make it work.


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: BitMaxz on October 18, 2019, 09:13:34 PM
I tried to search in google to any terms to get SSH code to bypass fans but the result is different it seems no one still sharing or posting if how to bypass fan to any silicon through SSH.

The only solution for this is faking the fan sensor try to find working signal generator "555 timer" this is mostly used on faking fan signal on antminer s9.

Check these two signal generators below.

- DROK LCD Display PWM Frequency Meter 1Hz-150kHz Adjustable Duty Ratio 0-100 Percentage Square Wave Rectangular Wave Signal Generator (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075V41DJM)
- NE555 Signal Generator Square Wave Pulse Frequency Adjustable Module 1~500KHz (https://www.amazon.com/Signal-Generator-Frequency-Adjustable-1-500KHz/dp/B06W5FVDJQ)

If not, better replace the burned fan with a new one.


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: lucifsg on October 21, 2019, 06:10:05 PM
Thanks a lot guys. I bought this from ebay and atm waiting to see if thats what went wrong. I can access the web interface menu when powering up so fingers crossed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/12X-Fan-Simulator-Emulator-Spoofer-Fan-Delete-All-miners-with-PWM-fans/303299288752

By the way for those who asked i used pharmaceutical/cosmetic grade light paraffin oil which belongs to mineral oils (actually its the purest , clearest mineral oil i had access to )
It has 2 point something conductivity index while water has 80+ , its cheap and you dont buy something worth 4/lt for more just by naming it "special ultra super mining oil"

Used a 9x12cm fan radiator (up to 18fans total if u put 9 more one the other side) and a fish tank pump . Will it work ? I dont know , waiting those fan spoofers to try .

I saw guys doing it with just a 3 fan radiator on youtube , but then again their miners were not 3100+ kw .


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on October 21, 2019, 06:19:06 PM
Fine and dandy but be aware that mineral oil attacks many plastics such as Nylon (used for connectors) and PVC (wire insulation). It makes them rock hard and brittle which is why a silicon oil is the preferred fluid.


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Pyrojason on October 25, 2019, 06:27:41 AM
Had not even thought about this - I wonder how long it would take to make the plastics hard and brittle...

Apparently Novec oil by 3M is a superior solution to mineral oil, based solely on their advertisements. Have not tried this but am curious.

https://www.3m.co.uk/3M/en_GB/novec-uk/applications/immersion-cooling/


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on October 25, 2019, 01:06:38 PM
3M's Novec is NOT an oil and it removes heat differently than oil does or other fluids do. Novec is a Fluorocarbon fluid that uses phase-change to absorb and release heat (it boils/condenses). It is a much more efficient way of moving heat (Bitfury uses it for their farms) than simply heat xfr to/from a fluid. It is also very very expensive.

For oil cooling look at using silicon-based oils such as from Clearco. They are inert to most materials. I've posted about them before so just search for immersion cooling.

edit: for a start, ref https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3075413.msg36500201#msg36500201


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Pyrojason on October 26, 2019, 06:57:42 AM
Interesting. It sounds like a really good product.

"3M Novec Engineered Fluids have a number of significant advantages versus other classes of dielectric fluids, including mineral oil. In addition to being non-flammable and non-combustible, Novec fluids have the boiling points and thermal stability needed for two-phase immersion cooling operations. Servicing and maintenance are made easy, since the electronics come out of Novec fluid clean and dry."


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: lucifsg on October 29, 2019, 05:21:46 PM
And how could you cool novec ? Could you use a fish tank pump with it like i did with miral oil ?


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on October 29, 2019, 06:09:51 PM
And how could you cool novec ? Could you use a fish tank pump with it like i did with miral oil ?
NO! As said before Novec uses 2-phase heat transfer -- not just simple 'make some fluid hot, move fluid elsewhere, cool off and return to system'.
Does no one know how to use a search engine anymore?...
For a start, ref https://www.allied-control.com/datatank-container-unit-1-4mw/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_vJbGgxPTU
Beyond that, search for "2-phase cooling".


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Artemis3 on November 03, 2019, 07:18:06 PM
A took a look elsewhere and what i got is this:

Novec immersion needs a sealed tank, you just fill it enough to submerge your electronics, then close it air tight. Novec will evaporate and return to liquid state on its own. No pumps.

But, you have to keep it well sealed. That could be tricky...


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Pyrojason on November 06, 2019, 03:21:43 AM
That video link is amazing - here's another one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyKIZPuepl8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyKIZPuepl8)

The fact that it circulates itself with the boiling and condensing back into the pool is awesome. Just need some way to get the heat out of the tank. One of them uses a water circulated external cooler to cool the area inside the sealed tank. Some of the review videos look more like an open tank setup with condensation bars which are removable - probably more manageable than the sealed off tank. Not sure how much 'pressure' there is or if it's more of an atmospheric chamber of low pressure. Very fascinating.


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: Artemis3 on November 06, 2019, 03:39:28 AM
That video link is amazing - here's another one.

The fact that it circulates itself with the boiling and condensing back into the pool is awesome. Just need some way to get the heat out of the tank. One of them uses a water circulated external cooler to cool the area inside the sealed tank. Some of the review videos look more like an open tank setup with condensation bars which are removable - probably more manageable than the sealed off tank. Not sure how much 'pressure' there is or if it's more of an atmospheric chamber of low pressure. Very fascinating.

I suppose you could add heat sinks or such to the walls/ceiling of the tank. Problem with not sealing it is you would lose much of it and Novec is not exactly cheap...

Using a regular water cooling method to remove heat from the top (inside?) of the tank also sounds interesting, sealing everything afterwards is tricky, you need to seal the holes for wires and the water cooling tubing for the tank. I guess that's the most efficient method.

You are right about pressure, would be interesting to check it once the thing is closed and cycling. Possibly lowering the pressure a bit is needed to keep things balanced. So add another tube to pump some air out and some pressure meter :)

If the ceiling is metal (aluminum, copper or silver :)), with a (water) heatsink, maybe you don't even need the water cooling to get inside the tank at all... I'd do the whole thing in copper (or at least the ceiling upper walls) with maybe a little window to inspect Novec liquid level.

Also tank size ratio probably affects efficiency. Smaller tanks for individual miners, a few miners per tank? There is probably an efficiency ratio in there.


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: ststeva on November 17, 2019, 09:11:03 PM
Cheapest way to make Fake fan circuit you can find on this link.

Work very good.

https://www.techidiots.net/notes/fake-fan-sensor


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: lightfoot on November 17, 2019, 11:53:42 PM
Quick question: Wouldn't you want to remove the fans completely and open the box up as much as possible in the oil? Otherwise I could see hot spots forming near the chips which would result in bad things.

Does the oil need to circulate in the tank, or can it be quiescent?


Title: Re: immersion oil smoke coming out of the miner ...
Post by: NotFuzzyWarm on November 18, 2019, 01:58:08 PM
The oil needs to circulate, depending on the viscosity simple convection will do the trick assuming the tank has fins on it. Think pad-mounted utility transformer: the fins on them are hollow and connected by pipes to the tank. Hot oil rises, flows into the pipes and as it cools in the fins falls to the bottom, through the outflow pipes back into the tank.