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Title: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Hydrogen on December 13, 2019, 11:45:30 PM Quote Greeks will be hit with a hefty fine if they do not spend almost a third of their income electronically in an unprecedented bid by the new government to stamp out rampant tax evasion. The government expects to raise more than €500 million ($808 million) every year from the initiative that will force Greeks to spend 30 per cent of their income electronically, Alex Patelis, the prime minister's chief economic adviser, revealed. Individuals that fail to meet the target will be hit with a 22 per cent fine on the shortfall. Therefore, if an individual spends just 20 per cent of their income through electronic means, they would face a 22 per cent tax on the remaining 10 per cent bar some exclusions. The scheme is a radical attempt to cast some light on Greece's huge shadow economy, the world's largest, and is part of new prime minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis's sweeping overhaul to revive growth. "This is a big initiative next year that will either raise more revenue because [people] will pay the penalty or more likely because of the [higher] VAT receipts," Mr Patelis told The Telegraph. The revenue predicted is likely to be at the "lower end" of estimates and the country's banks will help impose the measures by reporting spending to the authorities. If a Greek earned €1,000 per month and only paid 15 per cent of their income electronically, they would pay a fine of around €400 every year, for example. The government is confident it will not drive more workers into the country's booming shadow economy and tempt them to understate their earnings, a key problem in Greece. Greeks can use debit cards, credit cards, bank transfers and ecommerce for the electronic transactions, which includes rent. But many workers are paid their wages in cash, which they then use to pay their rent and bills. Greece also has one of the lowest internet usage rates in the EU at 72 per cent. This suggests that some in the country could struggle to meet the 30 per cent target. Southern Europe, particularly Greece, have booming shadow economies. A study by the Institute for Applied Economic Research in 2017 found that Greece had the largest in the world, being equivalent to 22 per cent of gross domestic product. Individuals and businesses are enticed to under report earnings and avoid taxation due to high rates and cumbersome bureaucracy. Tax evasion has been labelled a "Greek national sport" and it was estimated in 2016 to cost the country's coffers up to €16 billion every year, largely through fraud on VAT or income tax. However, Mr Mitsotakis' government is cutting the tax burden of workers and businesses in an attempt to shock the Greek economy back into life. Greece has returned to growth but its economy remains sluggish with output still a quarter below pre financial crisis levels. https://www.smh.com.au/business/markets/greeks-set-to-face-heavy-fines-if-they-don-t-spend-30-per-cent-of-their-income-electronically-20191209-p53i14.html .... Greece has imposed fines for citizens that fail to spend 30% of their income electronically. They claim this policy is implemented to cut down on tax evasion, for which greece is notorious for. We've witnessed similar anti tax evasion strategies unrolled in india. There is a question mark as to whether these measures are imposed with the intent to cut tax evasion, or whether they are anti cash policies utilized in an effort to further a cashless society paradigm. There's a second relevent angle where tax cuts are utilized in an effort to bolster tax revenues, which is counter intuitive in regard to how many view tax policies. Some believe tax cuts can only result in decreased tax revenues, which is not necessarily the case due to it having the potential to cut tax evasion: Quote Individuals and businesses are enticed to under report earnings and avoid taxation due to high rates and cumbersome bureaucracy. However, Mr Mitsotakis' government is cutting the tax burden of workers and businesses in an attempt to shock the Greek economy back into life. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Sithara007 on December 14, 2019, 02:01:48 AM Is this a joke? How can the government force something like this, when the people are already paying the income tax over their salaries? The tax rates in Greece remains one of the highest in the world, and now the government want to take away a part of the remainder as well. This will never be implemented successfully, and people will find loopholes to get around the system.
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: NathanJB on December 14, 2019, 02:29:56 AM This seems to be the trend nowadays. A few more countries are implementing this. They are limiting the spending of cash by their citizens. This is going to be pushing the use of other payment modes. Hopefully this would include the use of cryptocurrencies. If there many restaurants and other businesses in Greece that accept cryptocurrency payments, this might be one factor of its adoption.
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: ecnalubma on December 14, 2019, 03:01:17 AM No doubt that in few decades cash will become obsolete. Not only in Greece but some parts of the world are also implementing this type of method well for the sake of to prevent tax evasion. This move by the governments will be a good reason for its citizen to utilize other form of payment instruments like cryptocurrencies.
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: NeuroticFish on December 14, 2019, 06:13:49 AM I can understand why they try this. Tax evasion in Greece is huge, most businesses prefer to receive cash, in the past some even asked for higher prices if one wanted to pay with card.
But I don't thins it will work. There's a much bigger chance people will have part of their income paid in cash and undeclared. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: fiulpro on December 14, 2019, 07:57:36 AM So that means, if you have a stable income from any family member or anything and you are saving all of it for your school expenses or medical expenses anything that is really important , it Should be taken care of by the government that not everyone is so rich and they have to timely think about everything from day one , it is really hard to abide by the rules when government doesn't know each and every family individually , how could you do that?
This is so ridiculous. ! This is monarchy iced in pure diplomacy . Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: oktana on December 14, 2019, 08:16:30 AM Is it still in the testing phase? how to oblige this for citizens who are accustomed to the traditional economy?
If it aims to cut the taxation path and focus on one electronic door, it still must require mapping and classification for various national economic castes. Oh man, 22% for me is a nightmare if I can't adapt to government obligations. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Mometaskers on December 14, 2019, 08:46:29 AM I'd say this is ridiculous. The war on cash continues.
And what exactly do they mean that people have to spend 20% of their income electronically? What if you are so frugal you only consume 20% of your income and try to save the rest, would they penalize you? Or do you only need to spend electronically 30% of that 20%? And they already mentioned that people get paid in cash. Rent is pretty much the largest expense for most people so it's possible that the other expenses might not consume more that 30% of their income even if they use cards to pay for those. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Blitzboy on December 14, 2019, 09:12:24 AM Unbelievable! This is really ridiculous! How can a government impose a draconian policy on its people? Preventing tax evasion is good, but imposing a huge tax is a bad thing. In most countries, the maximum tax that each person must pay is 10% of their income. 30% is too big for everyone. This rule should be amended as soon as possible, And best of all, it shouldn't be applied officially. Objectively, taking measures to prevent tax evasion is good, but it is necessary to have proper and reasonable measures, a measure that no one opposes. What they are doing will cause a wrath of all the people in their country.
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Wexnident on December 14, 2019, 09:12:36 AM Okay...? Uhm why the policy? Heck they already know that the greeks are one of the populations with the lowest internet usage, so why enforce such a rule? Plus, the mode of payment or mode of salary of employees should be changed as well to easily adapt such changes. If cash is still paid in person, the employees are the ones who will be suffering when supposedly they're supposed to be enjoying since its payday.
Plus, its way too forceful and sudden. They should have let the citizens adapt to it slowly, the concept of electronic payments and such. Families would basically no experience with technology would basically have a hard time adjusting to these changes. A three month test period where they are required but no penalties are enforced could've been nice. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: figmentofmyass on December 14, 2019, 09:20:32 AM There is a question mark as to whether these measures are imposed with the intent to cut tax evasion, or whether they are anti cash policies utilized in an effort to further a cashless society paradigm. two birds with one stone. the ultimate rationale behind a completely digital and cashless system is control. easy surveillance, reining in tax evasion by forcing payments onto the books, preventing capital flight...... it's a dream come true for governments. the fact that cashless payments are so convenient just plays into their hands. There's a second relevent angle where tax cuts are utilized in an effort to bolster tax revenues, which is counter intuitive in regard to how many view tax policies. Some believe tax cuts can only result in decreased tax revenues, which is not necessarily the case due to it having the potential to cut tax evasion we'll see if it actually works. greeks may just find other ways to dodge their tax burdens. at some point, they'll just start avoiding the euro/banking system entirely if cash restrictions become too harsh. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: blckhawk on December 14, 2019, 10:06:18 AM It is still possible for them to implement such policy as a preparation for a cashless system. And there's nothing wrong about it, in fact, it would help cut the needed natural resources used in cash production. However, it does sacrifice some financial freedom (because cash is harder to trace than digital means of transaction). And not all people are capable of transacting digitally.
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: iram3130 on December 14, 2019, 11:19:37 AM I think India is one of those countries where the government has systematically increased the use of digital payments by allowing many e wallets in the same time. But they cant put a rule on spending. Greece already has debt and on that tax rates are high. People will find ways to bypass this and cheat the system one or the other way.
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: codegnome on December 14, 2019, 11:31:43 AM There is a similar thread about Italy
So Italy is now anti-cash and pro-Bitcoin? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5208729.0) Quote The Italian Minister Council continues to wage its war on cash, with the latest ratification lowering the maximum allowed amount for cash payments. This could lead to the rise of Bitcoin in the country. from: https://beincrypto.com/bitcoin-viability-strengthened-by-new-cash-limits-in-italy/?utm_campaign=amba&utm_medium=social&utm_source=bitcointalk&utm_content=jc These measures are to discourage use of cash which cant be monitored by governments. If everything is done electronically, government will be in better position to tax the people. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: alyssa85 on December 14, 2019, 11:34:26 AM Is this a joke? How can the government force something like this, when the people are already paying the income tax over their salaries? The tax rates in Greece remains one of the highest in the world, and now the government want to take away a part of the remainder as well. This will never be implemented successfully, and people will find loopholes to get around the system. This is targetted at retailers not the customer. The customer will pay the same for their goods, regardless of whether they pay in cash or with cards. But the retailer won't be able to hide revenue if people pay by cards. Because all electronic payments can be tracked. If small businesses in Greece were law abiding and paid their taxes, the govt wouldn't need to take drastic action like this. If small businesses paid their tax, the govt could afford to cut income tax for employees. The tax rates are so high because the entire burden is falling on PAYE employees. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: santiagomaicon on December 14, 2019, 01:16:43 PM Era of cash are gone. More and more govs want to control and see every transaction
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: hatshepsut93 on December 14, 2019, 02:34:14 PM This just begs to become another use case for Bitcoin, and not because it's electronic but because it's electronic cash - it can be used to avoid taxes just like cash, although some precautions are needed, since transaction history is public and permanent. Greeks could start asking to pay a part of their salary in Bitcoin and then spend Bitcoin directly, so that the government and banks wouldn't know about those money. But just like with other theoretical use cases, only time will show if it will happen or not.
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: BitHodler on December 14, 2019, 02:49:25 PM Era of cash are gone. More and more govs want to control and see every transaction It's not gone. I don't think they will ever get it to stop existing with how many people still depend on cash, especially in third world countries. Most of the imposed cash payment limits don't affect the normal person. I don't even remember the last time I spent $1k in cash on something. Most of my cash payments are well under the $50 mark, where other payments are settled through my card. I'm not justifying the limits, only point out that they aren't as bad. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: aardvark15 on December 14, 2019, 02:53:40 PM This seems to be a trend in Europe with other countries making similar requirements. This is a trend that’s probably good for cryptocurrencies.
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Lucius on December 14, 2019, 02:58:43 PM The current state of Greek society requires drastic measures, therefore, I am not surprised by this move by the Greek government. Their national debt is almost 370 billion EUR which is an insane amount of money, and this is even after debt haircut (creditors need to cut debt for 50% in 2011). Despite all the measures that saved Greece from a total breakdown, the situation is actually getting worse.
I think they as members of the EU&Eurozone must implement the decisions taken in the European Parliament, and perhaps this is just one of the measures actually imposed on them. The only way to force them to start paying taxes is to at least partially monitoring of transactions, and 30% is a reasonable amount, for start. For those who are interested in more info: Quote from: https://commodity.com/debt-clock/greece/ In 2007, before the crisis struck, the nation’s debt to GDP ratio was 103.7%. This could be considered high. However, after the creditor haircut, the IMF assistance, and the ECB loans, Greece’s debt to GDP ratio reached 178.6%, having reached 180.8% in 2016. Now, the majority of Greece’s national debt is owed to the IMF, the ECB, and various EU schemes. One condition of these loan contracts was that the Greek government will not be allowed to demand a haircut from those creditors. The Greek bailout didn’t offer the country a way out of its debt, which, in terms of a percentage of GDP is now the second highest in the world after Japan. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: 13abyknight on December 14, 2019, 03:55:59 PM Coming from a country which had its economy in shambles recently, this is actually a positive move to help its people to move away from cash and into electronic payment systems. Fines imposed will definitely be used by the government towards possibly clearing the massive debt that already exists and it comes as no surprise that these are big numbers we're talking about here.
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Febo on December 14, 2019, 04:08:03 PM Is this a joke? How can the government force something like this, when the people are already paying the income tax over their salaries? The tax rates in Greece remains one of the highest in the world, and now the government want to take away a part of the remainder as well. This will never be implemented successfully, and people will find loopholes to get around the system. Loophole is just to spend that much of their income with online banking. LOL It is a bit silly, but people will just do that. It is quite simple. Some people dont like changes, but now they will have a carrot to make one. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: lunnatic on December 14, 2019, 04:20:17 PM This seems to be a trend in Europe with other countries making similar requirements. This is a trend that’s probably good for cryptocurrencies. even though it is a trend of European countries, but it still makes a mystery, why do they have to spend 30% of their total income? Isn't that a person's own privacy, I think the rules are a bit silly, if only paying taxes I think there is no problemTitle: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: CarnagexD on December 14, 2019, 05:34:00 PM This seems to be a trend in Europe with other countries making similar requirements. This is a trend that’s probably good for cryptocurrencies. even though it is a trend of European countries, but it still makes a mystery, why do they have to spend 30% of their total income? Isn't that a person's own privacy, I think the rules are a bit silly, if only paying taxes I think there is no problemTitle: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: BChydro on December 14, 2019, 05:53:02 PM Greece has imposed fines for citizens that fail to spend 30% of their income electronically. I am speechless to see these kind of restrictions and dictatorship kind of rules in the name of helping the nation to catch tax evaders is bullshit, happy that we are not facing these situation and hopefully we will not be forced to do everything digitally as the trend is coming that the government is forcing people to do all the transactions digitally while some of the fools thing that the government is doing it to help the decentralized market and after seeing all these comments i tend to crack up because of the naivety everyone has. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: gentlemand on December 14, 2019, 06:11:40 PM I am speechless to see these kind of restrictions and dictatorship kind of rules in the name of helping the nation to catch tax evaders is bullshit, happy that we are not facing these situation and hopefully we will not be forced to do everything digitally as the trend is coming that the government is forcing people to do all the transactions digitally while some of the fools thing that the government is doing it to help the decentralized market and after seeing all these comments i tend to crack up because of the naivety everyone has. In this particular case it's a direct result of vast swathes of the population refusing to pay their due. If everyone else expects someone else to pay for the functioning of your society then you don't got much of a society any more. Also a lot of people there are paid in cash which is very unusual so the chances of never seeing the tax man are even higher. But this is ignoring that Greece has the lowest internet uptake in the EU. Paying online can be a hopeless pain up the arse in the UK which is supposed to be well connected so this doesn't bode well. And I wonder how carefully thought through that 30% figure is. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: avatar_kiyoshi on December 14, 2019, 06:45:57 PM This seems to be a trend in Europe with other countries making similar requirements. This is a trend that’s probably good for cryptocurrencies. even though it is a trend of European countries, but it still makes a mystery, why do they have to spend 30% of their total income? Isn't that a person's own privacy, I think the rules are a bit silly, if only paying taxes I think there is no problemIt looks like the Greek government wants to impose its debt on citizens, this is suck. That's why there are a many ways that the citizens dodge from tax. This is a good time for Bitcoin to shine at Greek. Bitcoin is currency for the people, it has proven to be perfect in Venezuela. The Greek government should have realized that and taken action before they became Venezuela v2.0 Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: jrrsparkles on December 14, 2019, 06:52:52 PM Greece has imposed fines for citizens that fail to spend 30% of their income electronically. They claim this policy is implemented to cut down on tax evasion, for which greece is notorious for. We've witnessed similar anti tax evasion strategies unrolled in india. There is a question mark as to whether these measures are imposed with the intent to cut tax evasion, or whether they are anti cash policies utilized in an effort to further a cashless society paradigm. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Duzter on December 14, 2019, 07:01:19 PM Is this a joke? How can the government force something like this, when the people are already paying the income tax over their salaries? The tax rates in Greece remains one of the highest in the world, and now the government want to take away a part of the remainder as well. This will never be implemented successfully, and people will find loopholes to get around the system. Governments should not force people to go completely on electronical spending. If the government is implementing it for the goodness of the public then they should've made the people understand it and further implement it. What's been done by Greece looks like a decision that is taken in a short without proper analysis and understanding about the mind of the citizens regarding the new adoption.Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: figmentofmyass on December 14, 2019, 10:09:50 PM This just begs to become another use case for Bitcoin, and not because it's electronic but because it's electronic cash - it can be used to avoid taxes just like cash not just bitcoin, but anything outside the formal euro banking system. stablecoins would work too. the key is to use a private/informal system that doesn't entail tax reporting. i think that's why governments are so up in arms about stablecoins. not only are they an easy way to avoid cash controls, but since they are pegged to cash value, they are the most obvious replacement for cash itself. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Argoo on December 15, 2019, 05:46:52 PM It is still possible for them to implement such policy as a preparation for a cashless system. And there's nothing wrong about it, in fact, it would help cut the needed natural resources used in cash production. However, it does sacrifice some financial freedom (because cash is harder to trace than digital means of transaction). And not all people are capable of transacting digitally. I don’t see anything good in this. Governments want to control the movement of money and such measures are very convenient for this. And there are always explanations and excuses. Paper money has existed for more than four centuries, and previously everything was fine. Forcing people to make transactions in a certain way, this in any case limits their financial freedom. I am generally against the use of such measures.Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: The Sceptical Chymist on December 15, 2019, 06:01:07 PM Quote Greece also has one of the lowest internet usage rates in the EU at 72 per cent. This suggests that some in the country could struggle to meet the 30 per cent target. Gotta love that, the government forcing people who don't use the internet to spend their money electronically, which usually includes spending it on the internet. This reminds me of China's push to go cashless, which would put their elderly population in something of a bind. These kinds of stories disgust me. We work so hard for our money, and governments just don't give a shit about putting restrictions like this on the people. I don't know about Greece's "rampant tax evasion" problem, but I suspect that's just an excuse for their government to restrict how Greeks spend their own money, much like how the US has used the war on terror to spy on everyone. I don’t see anything good in this. Nor do I. I'm hoping this doesn't become a trend for governments to do crap like this.Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: iamsheikhadil on December 15, 2019, 06:10:37 PM LOL. While I appreciate it, I wonder what these laws would seem like in a world where crypto is emerging. I mean, crypto is also digital but it's untraceable so obviously they won't be Nle to detect if there's a non tax paying crypto billionaire present among them xD
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: stompix on December 16, 2019, 06:30:55 AM I don't know about Greece's "rampant tax evasion" problem, but I suspect that's just an excuse for their government to restrict how Greeks spend their own money, much like how the US has used the war on terror to spy on everyone. Rampant is not really accurate. It's more like a national sport or some sort of religious movement. Greeks have been among the first ones to go bankrupt in human history, they will be probably the last. They hate the taxman but at the same time they love getting freebies, they pay zero in taxes but everybody was enjoying benefits from the government, just imagine the term "14th wage". Yeah, they were getting 14th wages a year! I've been to Greece a couple of times, even before the euro and the crisis, receipts were nonexistent, you would get your restaurant bill on a piece of paper handwritten, asking to pay with a card, the machine is broken, asking for a receipt, the machine is broken. Yeah, the measure is not right, its nor normal but neither is that country. Either way, nothing is going to save them, the whole country and system is flawed from birth. Bitcoin is the currency for the people, it has proven to be perfect in Venezuela. Apart from fake news and the usual stupid articles from bitcoin-related blogs, is there any proof of this? Understand that it's one thing to usu something as a hedge against inflation and a totally different beast to use it daily. The tax rates in Greece remains one of the highest in the world, and now the government want to take away a part of the remainder as well. T Denmark: Hold my beer! Sweden: Hold my beer! Finland: Hold my reindeer! Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: audaciousbeing on December 16, 2019, 09:05:25 AM Efforts like this are one of the things that government will continue to get wrong. What they should do to attack an action, they are focusing on something else. What if the a Greek is someone who would save 70% of his income, would he be punished for not spending? I don't understand. What a reasonable government should do is to focus on the source of receipt as a way to get tax. There is a form of Personal Income Tax which is deducted from the employees income before reaching his hand, there is also Withholding tax. Going after individuals will result in a waste of energy and resources rather corporate organisations where individuals gets their income.
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: figmentofmyass on December 16, 2019, 10:18:32 AM Quote Greece also has one of the lowest internet usage rates in the EU at 72 per cent. This suggests that some in the country could struggle to meet the 30 per cent target. Gotta love that, the government forcing people who don't use the internet to spend their money electronically, which usually includes spending it on the internet. This reminds me of China's push to go cashless, which would put their elderly population in something of a bind.apparently cash is still the primary means of payment for greek consumers. (https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/news-insights/insight/greeces-steady-progress-towards-cashless-society) part of the reason for that is that wages are still heavily paid in cash. so a 30% requirement is pretty messed up. :-\ for the last few years, the greek government has been incentivizing electronic payments by offering income tax deductions. those aged 70+ don't need to use electronic payments to get the deduction so presumably there is a similar exemption here. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: beerlover on December 16, 2019, 02:14:06 PM Oh, I have never guessed about the online shopping as a way of not evading taxes. It is a marvelous idea, I know we don't spend that much money anywhere in the world and if Greeks are not ready for it they will have to have online shops for basically everything but if they can this is actually an amazing idea.
But, I hate it when governments decide where your money should go, I am not against taxes tho, I like taxes as long as that tax goes to right places, a country is only as strong as how efficient the taxes are used (Greece may not be a good example of that lol) but thanks to this forced online shopping method there would be less people evading taxes. They will have to figure out how they can make sure they know the 100% of peoples income versus spending 30% of it of course but that is a whole another topic. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Theb on December 16, 2019, 02:28:55 PM I wonder how forcing them to spend 30% of their income electronically will avoid tax evasion when they can also fake their real income in the first place. I mean there are more reasonable ways of monitoring and avoiding tax evasion and money laundering without them forcing their citizens on spending their money. Encouraging their citizens to spend rather than to save money is more about them earning more income through taxes and it's really not about avoiding tax evasion. This might just be a desperate move from a country with a bad economy to encourage their people to spend and spend so that the economy will keep going.
Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: figmentofmyass on December 16, 2019, 07:31:03 PM I wonder how forcing them to spend 30% of their income electronically will avoid tax evasion when they can also fake their real income in the first place. i assume they are addressing income tax fraud in other ways. if they improved income tax reporting and deterred cash payments of wages, then mandatory electronic payments would address VAT/sales tax fraud on the consumer side. it looks like that's what they are targeting with this measure. studies estimate that 3.5% of greek GDP is lost to VAT fraud. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Greece#Extent_of_Greek_tax_evasion_and_corruption Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: bdivrik on December 16, 2019, 09:21:32 PM Is this a joke? How can the government force something like this, when the people are already paying the income tax over their salaries? The tax rates in Greece remains one of the highest in the world, and now the government want to take away a part of the remainder as well. This will never be implemented successfully, and people will find loopholes to get around the system. tax rates are also very high in Turkey. People pay part of their earnings as taxes. But the main problem is this. There are very high taxes on imported goods. How could something like this happen. A state that earns more than the producer? I don't think it's the right economic model. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: exstasie on December 16, 2019, 10:09:16 PM Rampant is not really accurate. It's more like a national sport or some sort of religious movement. Greeks have been among the first ones to go bankrupt in human history, they will be probably the last. They hate the taxman but at the same time they love getting freebies, they pay zero in taxes but everybody was enjoying benefits from the government, just imagine the term "14th wage". Yeah, they were getting 14th wages a year! I've been to Greece a couple of times, even before the euro and the crisis, receipts were nonexistent, you would get your restaurant bill on a piece of paper handwritten, asking to pay with a card, the machine is broken, asking for a receipt, the machine is broken. Yeah, the measure is not right, its nor normal but neither is that country. Either way, nothing is going to save them, the whole country and system is flawed from birth. So the Greeks are just genetically predisposed to tax evasion? :P What about the notion that tax rates are too high, to the point that businesses and labor are opting for the black market? Quote Few problems are more ingrained, or harder to combat, than the shadow economy, which appears to be growing again as new austerity measures compel once law-abiding Greeks to go off the books. Greece’s black market is estimated at 20 to 25 percent of the gross domestic product, as more people have stopped reporting their income to avoid paying taxes that, by some estimates, have risen to 70 percent of an individual’s gross income. “The heart of the matter for an ever-rising number of citizens and businesses is that they simply do not have the financial resources anymore to meet their rising tax obligations,” said Jens Bastian, an economist and a member of a team of European Union specialists that helped supervise the country’s earlier bailouts. Short on alternatives, he said, “many are falling back into the gray economy.” https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/18/world/europe/greece-bailout-black-market.html If tax rates like that are possible, it's no wonder 1/4 of the GDP is black market. Up to 45% income tax, up to 10% "solidarity" tax, 16% employee payroll tax, not to mention VAT, real property tax, etc. As an American, I feel fleeced by the IRS but there is no comparison to Greece. I would dodge taxes too if I lived there. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: stompix on December 17, 2019, 07:30:03 AM So the Greeks are just genetically predisposed to tax evasion? :P Not genetically but their history has forced them to do so. Also, if you want to hear something funny, although greeks liked evading taxes, the ottoman empire used greek to collect taxes and rules the Balkans, the so-called phanariots (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phanariots) and they were damn good at transforming coal into gold. If tax rates like that are possible, it's no wonder 1/4 of the GDP is black market. Up to 45% income tax, up to 10% "solidarity" tax, 16% employee payroll tax, not to mention VAT, real property tax, etc. As an American, I feel fleeced by the IRS but there is no comparison to Greece. I would dodge taxes too if I lived there. Let me see. National tax, Municipal tax, Church tax, 27% tax on dividends, 25% VAT, (in Greece is 24%), tax on land on buildings...you would think the black market is also rampant here. Oh, forgot to add, 180% tax on cars? 180%!!! Yet, everyone is saying how Denmark is such a nice country (https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp) to live in. If the government in Greece would spend the money the same way it would be a different story. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: yulionoo on December 17, 2019, 08:36:32 AM I have also read the news that several countries have also issued policies to limit and reduce the use of fiat money. and maybe this policy will encourage the government to also legalize cryptocurency as an alternative means of payment.
and I agree with the opinion that maybe the Greek government issued the policy to be able to take tax automatically from the accounts of its citizens so that no one will be in arrears to pay taxes. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Cherylstar86 on December 17, 2019, 11:05:20 AM I have also read the news that several countries have also issued policies to limit and reduce the use of fiat money. and maybe this policy will encourage the government to also legalize cryptocurency as an alternative means of payment. and I agree with the opinion that maybe the Greek government issued the policy to be able to take tax automatically from the accounts of its citizens so that no one will be in arrears to pay taxes. Every country has their own way of rules and regulations. Well, we have nothing to do about that since we just an ordinary people here in our society. Nowadays, I don't see any changes in our place but on that kind of situation as they limit and reduce fiat is somehow not a good idea in which fiat is the best choice of doing a payment transaction. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Dart18 on December 17, 2019, 02:49:52 PM The heck!
This is something new for a country. Quote Politics of Germany. Germany is a democratic, federal parliamentary republic, where federal legislative power is vested in the Bundestag (the parliament of Germany) and the Bundesrat (the representative body of the Länder, Germany's regional states). -WikipediaSo where it the democracy here. I know they want some changes but why put it in people. Maybe some of them just dont want that kind of idea. Why not be a voting system instead. Let the people decide what will be convenient for the most. If people are not using the electronically way then there must be something wrong with it. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Vishnu.Reang on December 17, 2019, 03:26:49 PM Let me see. National tax, Municipal tax, Church tax, 27% tax on dividends, 25% VAT, (in Greece is 24%), tax on land on buildings...you would think the black market is also rampant here. Oh, forgot to add, 180% tax on cars? 180%!!! Yet, everyone is saying how Denmark is such a nice country (https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp) to live in. If the government in Greece would spend the money the same way it would be a different story. The tax rates would be much lower, if the European Union cuts down its wasteful spending. For countries such as Sweden, Germany.etc, the tax rates were really high even before the European Union was formed. Once they were admitted in to the EU, another layer of taxation was implemented on the residents living in these countries. But I guess the people are fine with this. Recently Merkel forced the EU to spend more than €100 billion on the Syrian refugees and the EU residents were very happy with this move. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: sana54210 on December 17, 2019, 03:31:46 PM Maybe the best course would have been having some sort of checks time to time on every business instead of making an absurd new law for it? If you leave it to people to report their income that doesn't mean that 30% of it electronic will change anything, they will make 1000 dollars in profit and say it was 100 dollars and they will spend 30 dollars of it online and you have about 3% of it going to online instead of 30% that way.
I feel like that is not something we can recover ourselves that easily but also governments can't allow people to just report themselves without proper checking. If Greece had a bit more money saved for something like IRS in america they could have actually made that money back easily thanks to people finding criminals evading taxes. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Clement Kaliyar on December 17, 2019, 04:05:33 PM I have also read the news that several countries have also issued policies to limit and reduce the use of fiat money. and maybe this policy will encourage the government to also legalize cryptocurency as an alternative means of payment. It will not encourage any government to legalize crypto but they want to have complete control over the transactions made by their citizens.and I agree with the opinion that maybe the Greek government issued the policy to be able to take tax automatically from the accounts of its citizens so that no one will be in arrears to pay taxes. Is it even allowed to automatically withdraw the tax directly from the account without a consent, it is against the freedom of an individual and i am not sure that will happen because Greece is a democratic republic and if a government does anything then they will be removed from power in the next election if there is a favorable candidate or a party that caters to the needs of the common citizen.Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: stompix on December 18, 2019, 06:01:37 AM The heck! This is something new for a country. Quote Politics of Germany. Germany is a democratic, federal parliamentary republic, where federal legislative power is vested in the Bundestag (the parliament of Germany) and the Bundesrat (the representative body of the Länder, Germany's regional states). -WikipediaYeah, what the heck indeed... Greece and Germany are two different countries! And no, that nothing new for a country, that's why is called a federal republic. ~. Once they were admitted in to the EU, another layer of taxation was implemented on the residents living in these countries.Nothing like this happened and there is no such thing as a second layer of taxation in the EU. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: wxa7115 on December 25, 2019, 07:52:48 PM Maybe the best course would have been having some sort of checks time to time on every business instead of making an absurd new law for it? If you leave it to people to report their income that doesn't mean that 30% of it electronic will change anything, they will make 1000 dollars in profit and say it was 100 dollars and they will spend 30 dollars of it online and you have about 3% of it going to online instead of 30% that way. And this is why those kind of laws are useless, people are always going to find a way around the law especially if they believe that the law that is being imposed upon them is unfair, and there is no doubt in my mind that mandating the citizens of a country how to spend their money is without a doubt an abuse of power from that government.I feel like that is not something we can recover ourselves that easily but also governments can't allow people to just report themselves without proper checking. If Greece had a bit more money saved for something like IRS in america they could have actually made that money back easily thanks to people finding criminals evading taxes. However if there is one thing that is good about that law is that it is making people painfully aware that all politicians around the world do not really have as a goal the benefit of the population, they only want to perpetuate themselves in positions of power and they will do everything that they can to achieve that goal. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: gentlemand on December 25, 2019, 07:57:57 PM And this is why those kind of laws are useless And this is why we're going to end up with governmentcoins and they will go all out for cashlessness. When there is no other way of paying or being paid you have no other choice but to comply with whatever they impose on you. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: yulionoo on December 26, 2019, 08:00:16 AM I have also read the news that several countries have also issued policies to limit and reduce the use of fiat money. and maybe this policy will encourage the government to also legalize cryptocurency as an alternative means of payment. It will not encourage any government to legalize crypto but they want to have complete control over the transactions made by their citizens.and I agree with the opinion that maybe the Greek government issued the policy to be able to take tax automatically from the accounts of its citizens so that no one will be in arrears to pay taxes. Is it even allowed to automatically withdraw the tax directly from the account without a consent, it is against the freedom of an individual and i am not sure that will happen because Greece is a democratic republic and if a government does anything then they will be removed from power in the next election if there is a favorable candidate or a party that caters to the needs of the common citizen.I think it is not difficult for the government to make tax collection rules automatically through bank accounts. they will make rules and then announce to people and then the rules will be applied. maybe some residents will reject this rule. but did you know the character of government is always authoritarian. they will always try to take tax from their citizens. because taxes are the country's biggest income. the government in my country also issued regulations like that they force their citizens to pay taxes automatically. that policy even though I disagree I can't do anything because I'm just an ordinary person. Title: Re: Greeks face heavy fines if they don't spend 30% of their income electronically Post by: Clement Kaliyar on December 26, 2019, 05:53:22 PM ~snip If you are living in a dictator ship kind of environment you really cannot do anything about that, if you are living in places where general elections select who comes into power then you can make a choice the next time you go to vote whether you want them back to rule the country and if a government in that situation will make a rule like that then i bet they will not come to power again. The politicians should not be our dictators and we are not their slaves to enforce everything on us, i am from a democratic country and hence this is my view point.I think it is not difficult for the government to make tax collection rules automatically through bank accounts. they will make rules and then announce to people and then the rules will be applied. maybe some residents will reject this rule. but did you know the character of government is always authoritarian. they will always try to take tax from their citizens. because taxes are the country's biggest income. the government in my country also issued regulations like that they force their citizens to pay taxes automatically. that policy even though I disagree I can't do anything because I'm just an ordinary person. |