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Alternate cryptocurrencies => Altcoin Discussion => Topic started by: f2f.mirrors on December 17, 2019, 09:01:35 AM



Title: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: f2f.mirrors on December 17, 2019, 09:01:35 AM
Recently, I have paid attention to some projects of PoST (Proof of Space Time) type. Inspired by this, I want to explore whether it is possible to invent a new consensus algorithm that takes into account the energy saving of POST and also takes into account the security of POW. That is to say, the operation of the consensus algorithm requires CPU / GPU, RAM, and hard disk from the hardware level, and the three coexist.
Obviously, a qualified consensus algorithm should have the following characteristics:
1、Energy saving
2、Safety
3、Decentralized

Energy saving: With reference to the current mining behavior of BTC, it can be basically considered that mining that does not save energy will definitely lose decentralization. Obviously, the high energy consumption of BTC mining forces miners to run mining machines in places with extremely low electricity costs. This is not an easy condition to implement, which limits a large number of ordinary people who want to participate in mining. So if we want more people to participate in mining, the ratio of electricity cost per unit time to the value of mining equipment must be low enough.

Security: Security is the foundation of any blockchain project. So far, we have seen that the POW algorithm has unparalleled security, so combining POW as much as possible can improve the security of the POST consensus. insufficient.

Decentralization: If the consensus algorithm can constrain CPU / GPU, RAM, and hard disk proportionally at the hardware level, in order to have the best economic benefits under a specific proportion of the configuration. If it can be achieved, then can we think that we can make the existing ordinary PC be the "mining machine" with the best economic benefits. Realize Satoshi's vision "one CPU, one vote".


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: VanDeinsberg12 on December 17, 2019, 09:33:03 AM
I think that the main point of energy-saving should be on the algo, if you are seeing more and more developers are creating new algos with more and more efficiency compared with the old algo. Remember when it comes to the algo that is having a very high efficiency that can reduce energy consumption.
I think that you must try to see X20 or X11 algorithm. both have been used by some coins too.




Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: f2f.mirrors on December 18, 2019, 06:35:44 AM
I think that the main point of energy-saving should be on the algo, if you are seeing more and more developers are creating new algos with more and more efficiency compared with the old algo. Remember when it comes to the algo that is having a very high efficiency that can reduce energy consumption.
I think that you must try to see X20 or X11 algorithm. both have been used by some coins too.




I agree with you that X20 is a good algorithm, but it is still not decentralized.
If there is an algorithm that allows existing ordinary computers to participate in mining at home or in the workplace, it is foreseeable that this method has unparalleled advantages.
To achieve this goal, low energy consumption is necessary, and another necessary condition is that no professional equipment can have higher efficiency. The 10%, 20% advantage may be acceptable, but 100%, 200%, or higher is not acceptable.
In addition, the waste of social resources caused by ASIC is great. Not only energy waste, but also competition with IC production capacity, the price of iPhone may therefore be higher.


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: Novatech8 on December 18, 2019, 06:40:14 AM
I find enigma and bitcoin diamond to be the best energy saving coins when mining because of their algorithm, although POS( prove of stake) is the best choice and hassle free, As for PoW, X11, X13, X14, X15, and X17 algorithms are the best for energy efficiency at the moment.


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: Ucy on December 18, 2019, 07:07:15 AM
I think that the main point of energy-saving should be on the algo, if you are seeing more and more developers are creating new algos with more and more efficiency compared with the old algo. Remember when it comes to the algo that is having a very high efficiency that can reduce energy consumption.
I think that you must try to see X20 or X11 algorithm. both have been used by some coins too.




I agree with you that X20 is a good algorithm, but it is still not decentralized.
If there is an algorithm that allows existing ordinary computers to participate in mining at home or in the workplace, it is foreseeable that this method has unparalleled advantages.
To achieve this goal, low energy consumption is necessary, and another necessary condition is that no professional equipment can have higher efficiency. The 10%, 20% advantage may be acceptable, but 100%, 200%, or higher is not acceptable.
In addition, the waste of social resources caused by ASIC is great. Not only energy waste, but also competition with IC production capacity, the price of iPhone may therefore be higher.

I guess people who prefer the current model are  doing it for security reasons or
 popular economic principle. It could fail eventually for many reasons.
The  important thing (I believe) is to have as many random people as possible participate in mining for the sake of decentralization and security  of a cryptocurrency. 




Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: f2f.mirrors on December 18, 2019, 07:29:18 AM
I think that the main point of energy-saving should be on the algo, if you are seeing more and more developers are creating new algos with more and more efficiency compared with the old algo. Remember when it comes to the algo that is having a very high efficiency that can reduce energy consumption.
I think that you must try to see X20 or X11 algorithm. both have been used by some coins too.




I agree with you that X20 is a good algorithm, but it is still not decentralized.
If there is an algorithm that allows existing ordinary computers to participate in mining at home or in the workplace, it is foreseeable that this method has unparalleled advantages.
To achieve this goal, low energy consumption is necessary, and another necessary condition is that no professional equipment can have higher efficiency. The 10%, 20% advantage may be acceptable, but 100%, 200%, or higher is not acceptable.
In addition, the waste of social resources caused by ASIC is great. Not only energy waste, but also competition with IC production capacity, the price of iPhone may therefore be higher.

I guess people who prefer the current model are  doing it for security reasons or
 popular economic principle. It could fail eventually for many reasons.
The  important thing (I believe) is to have as many random people as possible participate in mining for the sake of decentralization and security  of a cryptocurrency. 




Extremely agree with you!
So, design an algorithm for ordinary PC and mining can be conducted fairly. Now it seems that is the only way to achieve this goal.


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: joseyphil82 on December 18, 2019, 08:22:20 AM
Sorry but why POW algorithm? Why not choose prove of stake coins instead and you won't have to worry about energy and electricity costs too, just hold in wallet and get paid


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: f2f.mirrors on December 18, 2019, 08:47:45 AM
Sorry but why POW algorithm? Why not choose prove of stake coins instead and you won't have to worry about energy and electricity costs too, just hold in wallet and get paid

I have no objection to other people supporting POS, and also support some app running on POS blockchain.
Just like there is more than one political system on the planet,I think that POWs implemented through hardware devices will always exist.Blockchain is a reflection of a social organization, not just technology itself.
So before the POS is better, I still agree with the security of POW.


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: paskah01 on December 18, 2019, 09:53:29 AM
Proof of Participation implemented by https://blockchainzoo.com/ i think is a better solution for decentralized mechanism.

No need to explain as i think this video have explained all :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SALlJhKbNlE&t=3s


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: bitmover on December 18, 2019, 12:23:44 PM
Obviously, a qualified consensus algorithm should have the following characteristics:
1、Energy saving
2、Safety
3、Decentralized

Energy saving: With reference to the current mining behavior of BTC, it can be basically considered that mining that does not save energy will definitely lose decentralization. Obviously, the high energy consumption of BTC mining forces miners to run mining machines in places with extremely low electricity costs. This is not an easy condition to implement, which limits a large number of ordinary people who want to participate in mining. So if we want more people to participate in mining, the ratio of electricity cost per unit time to the value of mining equipment must be low enough.

What makes bitcoin resilient and secure is the energy consumption. If you remove that from the equation, it can be attacked.

For now, you need a continental scale energy consumption to attack bitcoin network. This is what you need, because bitcoin may be attack by a big nation in the future. Understand?

So, any alternative algorithm that is not resistant to a continental attack is a lose of decentralization and censorship resistance. More miners would be nice, however, add more miners without censorship resistance is not a good trade off


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: yazher on December 18, 2019, 12:42:47 PM
Energy-saving is a must If you want to have some decent income. that's more often people who want to mine, choose the coolest place in the world.
Safety is the national regulation for business operations around the world. everyone should know about it. the main thing here is, what coin should you mine? to maximize your profits on your mining. you also need to look for the coins that have some historical liquidity. don't choose a new coin to mine.


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: fuer44 on December 18, 2019, 01:33:23 PM
I have never been minning and I might not be included here. but based on what I read, minning consumes a lot of electrical energy which is certainly not a good impact on the environment. if it is continued, then the effect will be global warming. in my opinion what should be emphasized here is how to optimize the lowest possible electrical energy. so, it doesn't cost a lot of electricity and also has a lot of electricity.


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: paskah01 on December 19, 2019, 03:19:43 AM
I have never been minning and I might not be included here. but based on what I read, minning consumes a lot of electrical energy which is certainly not a good impact on the environment. if it is continued, then the effect will be global warming. in my opinion what should be emphasized here is how to optimize the lowest possible electrical energy. so, it doesn't cost a lot of electricity and also has a lot of electricity.

You ever heard about Proof of Participation? It's energy sufficient, probably greener than any other consensus :)
https://blogchainzoo.com/proof-of-participation/


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: f2f.mirrors on December 19, 2019, 08:24:34 AM
I have never been minning and I might not be included here. but based on what I read, minning consumes a lot of electrical energy which is certainly not a good impact on the environment. if it is continued, then the effect will be global warming. in my opinion what should be emphasized here is how to optimize the lowest possible electrical energy. so, it doesn't cost a lot of electricity and also has a lot of electricity.

You ever heard about Proof of Participation? It's energy sufficient, probably greener than any other consensus :)
https://blogchainzoo.com/proof-of-participation/

Is it fundamentally different from DPOS? I think people who might support DPOS can accept Proof of Participation.
Forgive me do not have much time to carefully analyze.


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: paskah01 on December 19, 2019, 08:35:59 AM
I have never been minning and I might not be included here. but based on what I read, minning consumes a lot of electrical energy which is certainly not a good impact on the environment. if it is continued, then the effect will be global warming. in my opinion what should be emphasized here is how to optimize the lowest possible electrical energy. so, it doesn't cost a lot of electricity and also has a lot of electricity.

You ever heard about Proof of Participation? It's energy sufficient, probably greener than any other consensus :)
https://blogchainzoo.com/proof-of-participation/

Is it fundamentally different from DPOS? I think people who might support DPOS can accept Proof of Participation.
Forgive me do not have much time to carefully analyze.

Yes, quiet different. And nope, i don't think so for DPOS is way more centralized than PoP which is (from my opinion) the best option for decentralized system..



Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: f2f.mirrors on December 19, 2019, 08:38:27 AM
Energy-saving is a must If you want to have some decent income. that's more often people who want to mine, choose the coolest place in the world.
Safety is the national regulation for business operations around the world. everyone should know about it. the main thing here is, what coin should you mine? to maximize your profits on your mining. you also need to look for the coins that have some historical liquidity. don't choose a new coin to mine.

I used to be a Bitcoin miner and owned an S9 miner. But now it has been shut down because of electricity prices.
But I realized a very serious problem, a lot of people want to Bitcoin mining, but it can't be done easily.
Expensive electrical energy, professional machine, noise, heat, all these problems are obstacles.
Why not enough technicians care about how to use the existing PC, I believe this will achieve huge market success.
I have been thinking about it for a long time recently. And also hope to find a mature solution.


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: f2f.mirrors on December 19, 2019, 08:44:10 AM
I have never been minning and I might not be included here. but based on what I read, minning consumes a lot of electrical energy which is certainly not a good impact on the environment. if it is continued, then the effect will be global warming. in my opinion what should be emphasized here is how to optimize the lowest possible electrical energy. so, it doesn't cost a lot of electricity and also has a lot of electricity.

You ever heard about Proof of Participation? It's energy sufficient, probably greener than any other consensus :)
https://blogchainzoo.com/proof-of-participation/

Is it fundamentally different from DPOS? I think people who might support DPOS can accept Proof of Participation.
Forgive me do not have much time to carefully analyze.

Yes, quiet different. And nope, i don't think so for DPOS is way more centralized than PoP which is (from my opinion) the best option for decentralized system..



Blockchain is a reflection of a social organization, not just technology itself.
Based on the reality of the situation, POS chain's health arenot very good.
So before the POS is better, I still agree with the security of POW.
Hope ETH2 can change something..



Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: paskah01 on December 19, 2019, 08:53:13 AM
I have never been minning and I might not be included here. but based on what I read, minning consumes a lot of electrical energy which is certainly not a good impact on the environment. if it is continued, then the effect will be global warming. in my opinion what should be emphasized here is how to optimize the lowest possible electrical energy. so, it doesn't cost a lot of electricity and also has a lot of electricity.

You ever heard about Proof of Participation? It's energy sufficient, probably greener than any other consensus :)
https://blogchainzoo.com/proof-of-participation/

Is it fundamentally different from DPOS? I think people who might support DPOS can accept Proof of Participation.
Forgive me do not have much time to carefully analyze.

Yes, quiet different. And nope, i don't think so for DPOS is way more centralized than PoP which is (from my opinion) the best option for decentralized system..



Blockchain is a reflection of a social organization, not just technology itself.
Based on the reality of the situation, POS chain's health arenot very good.
So before the POS is better, I still agree with the security of POW.
Hope ETH2 can change something..



I agree. PoW's security has been proven to be the longest secured track. But i think it won't last for so long, the fact that somebody with more processing power can take over the minority is a risky point for a decentralized network. Also considering the electricity consumption...

In this case i speak about decentralization.


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: f2f.mirrors on December 19, 2019, 10:02:41 AM
I have never been minning and I might not be included here. but based on what I read, minning consumes a lot of electrical energy which is certainly not a good impact on the environment. if it is continued, then the effect will be global warming. in my opinion what should be emphasized here is how to optimize the lowest possible electrical energy. so, it doesn't cost a lot of electricity and also has a lot of electricity.

You ever heard about Proof of Participation? It's energy sufficient, probably greener than any other consensus :)
https://blogchainzoo.com/proof-of-participation/

Is it fundamentally different from DPOS? I think people who might support DPOS can accept Proof of Participation.
Forgive me do not have much time to carefully analyze.

Yes, quiet different. And nope, i don't think so for DPOS is way more centralized than PoP which is (from my opinion) the best option for decentralized system..



Blockchain is a reflection of a social organization, not just technology itself.
Based on the reality of the situation, POS chain's health arenot very good.
So before the POS is better, I still agree with the security of POW.
Hope ETH2 can change something..



I agree. PoW's security has been proven to be the longest secured track. But i think it won't last for so long, the fact that somebody with more processing power can take over the minority is a risky point for a decentralized network. Also considering the electricity consumption...

In this case i speak about decentralization.

The  important thing  is to have as many random people as possible participate in mining for the sake of decentralization and security  of a cryptocurrency. Bitcoin is not enough!


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: VanDeinsberg12 on December 19, 2019, 10:11:14 AM
I think that the main point of energy-saving should be on the algo, if you are seeing more and more developers are creating new algos with more and more efficiency compared with the old algo. Remember when it comes to the algo that is having a very high efficiency that can reduce energy consumption.
I think that you must try to see X20 or X11 algorithm. both have been used by some coins too.




I agree with you that X20 is a good algorithm, but it is still not decentralized.
If there is an algorithm that allows existing ordinary computers to participate in mining at home or in the workplace, it is foreseeable that this method has unparalleled advantages.
To achieve this goal, low energy consumption is necessary, and another necessary condition is that no professional equipment can have higher efficiency. The 10%, 20% advantage may be acceptable, but 100%, 200%, or higher is not acceptable.
In addition, the waste of social resources caused by ASIC is great. Not only energy waste, but also competition with IC production capacity, the price of iPhone may therefore be higher.
if that was not yet decentralized and what make it becomes decentralized? if you are implementing such algo to the POW and that will be enough decentralized as bitcoin. 100% efficientcy is not acceptable and more than it can be catagorized as a non sense thing.
What makes the blockchain becomes decentralized is not the consensus and i think that algo has nothing to make blockchain becomes decentralized but the node does it to make blockchain becomes decentralized.


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: paskah01 on December 19, 2019, 11:00:05 AM
I have never been minning and I might not be included here. but based on what I read, minning consumes a lot of electrical energy which is certainly not a good impact on the environment. if it is continued, then the effect will be global warming. in my opinion what should be emphasized here is how to optimize the lowest possible electrical energy. so, it doesn't cost a lot of electricity and also has a lot of electricity.

You ever heard about Proof of Participation? It's energy sufficient, probably greener than any other consensus :)
https://blogchainzoo.com/proof-of-participation/

Is it fundamentally different from DPOS? I think people who might support DPOS can accept Proof of Participation.
Forgive me do not have much time to carefully analyze.

Yes, quiet different. And nope, i don't think so for DPOS is way more centralized than PoP which is (from my opinion) the best option for decentralized system..



Blockchain is a reflection of a social organization, not just technology itself.
Based on the reality of the situation, POS chain's health arenot very good.
So before the POS is better, I still agree with the security of POW.
Hope ETH2 can change something..



I agree. PoW's security has been proven to be the longest secured track. But i think it won't last for so long, the fact that somebody with more processing power can take over the minority is a risky point for a decentralized network. Also considering the electricity consumption...

In this case i speak about decentralization.

The  important thing  is to have as many random people as possible participate in mining for the sake of decentralization and security  of a cryptocurrency. Bitcoin is not enough!


Yep in order to maintain the decentralize system, but it's also really possible to get centralized or 51% attack (though nearly impossible ya), i just think it's not a good mechanism for decentralization. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sDtorfzG7w&t=788s

You should read about PoP seriously, it haven't been implemented by many but i am somehow sure it's a future consensus alogrithm for decentralization. Just google, Proof of Participation Blockchain Zoo . it is new but on 2008 bitcoin also weren't as hype and big as now, i'm sure they will find their way to the stars

:D



Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: OasisDre on December 19, 2019, 11:06:51 AM
Mining ETH and XMR is the most profitable but other algos like x11 and others are not profitable at all, using whattomine website says it all, mining is not encouraging now unless you have access to free electricity


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: VanDeinsberg12 on December 20, 2019, 02:46:13 AM
Mining ETH and XMR is the most profitable but other algos like x11 and others are not profitable at all, using whattomine website says it all, mining is not encouraging now unless you have access to free electricity
Please, read the context carefully and this is not about how profitable mining is. This was discussing about a new consensus that can be used to mine crypto.
I think you should put more effort to write something that is not become a non sense thing. X11 is an old algo compared with X20


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: f2f.mirrors on December 20, 2019, 06:12:52 AM
Mining ETH and XMR is the most profitable but other algos like x11 and others are not profitable at all, using whattomine website says it all, mining is not encouraging now unless you have access to free electricity
Please, read the context carefully and this is not about how profitable mining is. This was discussing about a new consensus that can be used to mine crypto.
I think you should put more effort to write something that is not become a non sense thing. X11 is an old algo compared with X20

When I was google proof of space time, I noticed the SPACEMESH project. They claimed that mining can be done with ordinary PCs, which requires CPU and hard disk space.
Do you think the consensus of this project is a better choice in the future?


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: f2f.mirrors on December 20, 2019, 06:20:56 AM
I think that the main point of energy-saving should be on the algo, if you are seeing more and more developers are creating new algos with more and more efficiency compared with the old algo. Remember when it comes to the algo that is having a very high efficiency that can reduce energy consumption.
I think that you must try to see X20 or X11 algorithm. both have been used by some coins too.




I agree with you that X20 is a good algorithm, but it is still not decentralized.
If there is an algorithm that allows existing ordinary computers to participate in mining at home or in the workplace, it is foreseeable that this method has unparalleled advantages.
To achieve this goal, low energy consumption is necessary, and another necessary condition is that no professional equipment can have higher efficiency. The 10%, 20% advantage may be acceptable, but 100%, 200%, or higher is not acceptable.
In addition, the waste of social resources caused by ASIC is great. Not only energy waste, but also competition with IC production capacity, the price of iPhone may therefore be higher.
if that was not yet decentralized and what make it becomes decentralized? if you are implementing such algo to the POW and that will be enough decentralized as bitcoin. 100% efficientcy is not acceptable and more than it can be catagorized as a non sense thing.
What makes the blockchain becomes decentralized is not the consensus and i think that algo has nothing to make blockchain becomes decentralized but the node does it to make blockchain becomes decentralized.

Get it. The number of node is the key point. No matter what the algo is, as long as it is a mining pool model, it's difficult to make changes.


Title: Re: Is there a better consensus based on mining? show your opinion!
Post by: f2f.mirrors on December 20, 2019, 07:52:13 AM
I think that the main point of energy-saving should be on the algo, if you are seeing more and more developers are creating new algos with more and more efficiency compared with the old algo. Remember when it comes to the algo that is having a very high efficiency that can reduce energy consumption.
I think that you must try to see X20 or X11 algorithm. both have been used by some coins too.




There is a question, why X20 is energy efficient? who is compared with, ethash,sha256 or other?