Bitcoin Forum

Everyone knows that holding or HODLING your coins is a key part of
getting involved in Bitcoin and Crypto, the idea is not to get rid of them
in case you miss the next big pump, which could happen at any time for
example.

There have been arguments previously around the idea or necessity of
"spending" your Bitcoin and Crypto to create an ecosystem of earn and
spend and promoting the idea that Bitcoin is a currency and can be used
to actually purchase goods and services and also to earn coins for goods
and services supplied.

The most famous purchase of goods with bitcoin was by Laszlo Hanyecz
Back in 2010 when he bought 2 Pizzas for 10,000 coins.

To aid Bitcoin in its future I propose that some Bitcoin needs to be spent
To create and promote an earn/spend ecosystem.
From a personal experience I have earned, bought, traded, sold and held
bitcoin since 2017 but the majority I have on HOLD.

The biggest personal example I can give of this earn/spend idea is from a
security point of view and something which I am actively working on, personal
online security and anonymity.

I started with Email and web browsing to reduce my dependency on google
and currently looking at the services from Proton, protonmail and protonvpn
both of these services are paid services and can be purchased with Bitcoin:
https://protonvpn.com/support/vpn-bitcoin-payments/
https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/paying-with-bitcoin/
I have been earning Bitcoin since 2017 on the forum with signature campaigns
and with graphic design. With this purchase I can retain a degree of anonymity
by paying with Bitcoin while proving to Proton that people do spend Bitcoin
and that it is a useful payment option to provide.

The biggest proponents of spending Bitcoin are “The Bitcoin Family” who
Have been traveling the world since 2017 on the proceeds to going all in
On Bitcoin > https://yolofamilytravel.com/

If you want to EARN Bitcoin you can head over to the “How to earn Bitcoins - Part 1”
thread here > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1629118.0

If you want to SPEND Bitcoin you can check out this list grabbed from a quick
[ahem] google search > https://cryptomaniaks.com/latest-cryptocurrency-news/where-can-i-spend-bitcoin

There are many ways to earn and spend, are you adding to the ecosystem?

Had some time on my hands this evening to create a basic graphic,
sometimes its nice to SEE an idea rather than reading it . . .

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Xh46snGFHqo/XhemRzB6koI/AAAAAAAAAgA/1HUBfKUhZLc7vCOF_Ix26twZx9uzpOmwQCNcBGAsYHQ/s1600/earn-spend.jpg

Bitcoin is first and foremost a currency and therefore should have been viewed like the digitalized money that people can use in buying and selling of products and services. Unfortunately, speculations came in because of the rise of value of Bitcoin as magnified in the year 2017. Right now, people who are into Bitcoin are more into holding in preparation for a big bull run which many expect can happen within this year or maybe in 2021. I read somewhere that only a small part of Bitcoin in circulation are spent on the usual commerce and this is telling us that Bitcoin has been treated more like a store of value rather than as currency for everyday use. Otherwise, there would be no need to promote its spending power. I am not so sure if we should be sad on this reality or what, or maybe it does not concern me at all.

yes of course Bitcoin is by far being HODLED, there are a small percentage
of people who are still holding after buying at the top of the 2017 wave and
feel they cannot use Bitcoin. There are also those who dont care for the
technology Bitcoin offers they are just after the profit.

This goes against the spendability factor that Bitcoin offers

It sounds good, but what about the safety and "survivability" of such ecosystems?

Earn and spend is actually a good idea, especially if done within a decentralized Bitcoin ecosystem . I guess Lightening Network is best suited for this. A serious earn and spend initiative(if ran like an independent society) could seriously conjest the network.  

Trust me most crypto enthusiasts would have preferred to spending their Bitcoin in one way or another but we still face the problem of slow network transaction on Bitcoin. In addition not all online marketplacesbdo accept Bitcoin as payments as most are afraid of its volatility. I believe it's best if we use it as a store of value.

Pretty good topic. Though I am not completely against the HODL or the trading strategy which majority of the so called fake bitcoin enthusiasts are doing as of now, I firmly believe that bitcoin should be used as a global currency for payments rather than considering them as a store of value. satoshi created bitcoin to help with the online transactions taking place in a highly decentralized way and this was the one which was specified in the whitepaper. I do trade bitcoin for USDT or other alts, but would never go by the HODL strategy way which majority of us (the people) have been following. For most part of the time, I have been using bitcoin for global transactions instead of a reversible system like PayPal and I would always go by the way.

Some are concerned about the high volatility which is always prevailing in the crypto market, but these would come to an end when there is a stoppage in the inflow of mined bitcoins. If there is a stoppage or minimization, bitcoin would reach the true value through trades and would never be subjected to major volatility factors. Some would consider them as 'Digital Gold' but they weren't invented for the purpose of using them as a store of value. I would go by the quote of 'One World - One Currency' instead of 'Bitcoin, the Digital Gold'.

The 2016 halving had a steep halving of the total coins per block from 25 -> 12.5 but rather the current halving has 12.5 -> 6.25 which would be quite less inflow of mined coins and I don't think there would be quite high volatility like the 2017 bull run. If we are considering bitcoin as a currency, volatilies are quite bad to make them a currency in the real world.

There were legacy transactions in the beginning of the network and they were overtaken by segwit introduction (thanks to bitcoin devs who have been working so hard to make them scalable in a longer run). I firmly believe there would be newer innovations in bitcoin to make them more scalable. Extreme volatility would come to an end only when majority of bitcoins have been mined.

I agree with you. Hodling is great and all but if there is no usage, BTC becomes useless.

Instead of just Earn & Spend, I suggest: Earn, Spend & Rebuy. Want to pay your VPN? Do not use your credit card. Instead, get your BTC (or buy some if you don’t have), spend them and then rebuy! Spend $10 in BTC, buy $10 in BTC. You not only show the companies that you want to use BTC (many stopped accepting it due to no interest) but you also give the market more liquidity, and even help BTC’s price to increase (countering the many companies that accept BTC but will sell them immediately for USD).

Win-win for all of us. Higher price, public interest and bigger ecossystem. :)

I agree that it's good to spend as well as earn. I'm earning BTC, but I'm spending it only when selling for fiat the vast majority of time... The reason if that there aren't many places where I can spend it on something I actually buy, and I don't want to but anything useless just to spend BTC. Moreover, it seems to me that sometimes when one can pay with bitcoin or fiat, the price in BTC is higher, and in that case it doesn't make sense to me to overpay.

Ofcourse if you are earning something in first place that means you are looking forward to be financially independent and with independence comes that part where you won't wanna ask your parents for money , then you understand that as you are earning you have to make a separate wallet for the monthly expenses .
I think I will for sure sell in low instead of asking someone about the money , that's why am doing this , yes this ecosystem exists and not in one way but in many.

Thanks, good to know some of us are thinking alike!


Earn, Spend and Rebuy - is good, that will also work!



Of course, just like with basic economics the idea is to earn more than you spend.
Like I posted we dont have to spend everything we earn [or buy] but the idea of
creating an ecosystem where there are coins being spent will support those
merchants offering the option to pay with BTC and crypto.

An interesting strategy to earn more bitcoins at the same time you are using Bitcoin to spend is to use reward programs like lolly app

From the beginning bitcoin isn't much used as a means of payment. It got used as a transaction token that carries value, and its usage was much on illegal needs. This increased usage of bitcoin on darkweb marked bitcoin to be an asset particularly developed for darkweb. It took years and years for people to understand the reality of bitcoin, and further slowly realtime services and businesses started to accept bitcoin. This way spending of bitcoin isn't much advised in the beginning, as the value keeps pumping it got a transition from valuable token to investment asset. This has made people to hold than spend.

the first thing to build an ecosystem, is to educate everyone, how bitcoin will revolutionize the community, from that if everyone learns and share it we will slowly create an ecosystem
everyone will be able to adapt and use bitcoin currency the more people use digital currency more and more people will adjust, since as we know the mentality of the human race
everyone don't want to be left behind in technology and everything around us

This can be a very good idea and it would be doing many wonderful thigns to Bitcoin if a good number of people will be doing the "Earn, Spend & Rebuy" you are suggesting. However, we know human nature. As long as one is not getting some benefits of doing something then it will not be adopted by the many. I think that there must be a carrot or a cake at the end of the line for someone to do something voluntarily. Maybe merchants should be providing some good discounts for buyers to use their Bitcoin in the usual buying process. That way any inconvenience or hassle and that possible risk of losing a pump opportunity can be substituted.

Of course, people who instinctively hold bitcoin will do HOLD because of the possibility of an increase in price.
Until now there has been no price balance so the ecosystem has not been able to run properly.
When prices are balanced, surely the ecosystem will form by itself. After all, before bitcoin is mined, everyone will try to collect bitcoin in preparation for the future when the ecosystem begins.

This is refreshing and the discussion I wish more people were having, or at least a passing thought. I have spent the last year or so actively looking for ways to spend my BTC. Not all of it as I still believe savings are an important part of life. With BTC especially as it's more an investment in the future whatever you put aside. I've just never understood how some are unwilling to spend or use their holdings large or small to try and create the economy that is needed. Without utility there is no value imo.
I really like this idea for people that have BTC to spend and the option of refilling their bag with whatever goes out. It's pretty much cost neutral to the individual to do so. Lately I've been using my BTC as much as possible to avoid currency exchange fees, hence my trades for USD  on forum.

I would say maybe add teach to the overall philosophy. We essentially have to be ambassadors to new users as well.  My focus is on smaller contractors or shops, that may be willing to go this route in exchange for my business. I have an electrician who has come by a few times to work alongside me for installs, and we got to talking, last time he seemed fairly interested. He's young and has disposable income, with this all being work on the side. Pretty much the best case scenario for him to maybe think about accepting BTC, I'll likely even toss him 5% extra if he bites. I'm more than willing to get him a wallet setup, and explain the basics for safety. If I can bring one person into the space especially as a merchant so to speak I'll feel pretty good about my crypto journey this year.

Yes. We really need to earn it first and as soon as we have more funds or the feel of needing to spend it then its the right time to do it. Mostly we always wait for the best price to spend it. Holding it for a long period is the safest strategy to have the right timing to spend it.

NO, the idea is to HODL, until fiat currencies are valued in Bitcoin, until the time comes that "you don't have to sell for millions" one day, until hyper-BITCOINIZATION.

speculation about bitcoin price is good as long as it remains as a side product not the main thing. people should always use bitcoin as a currency since that is what it was designed for and then as aside they can invest, hodl and enjoy the profits that bitcoin can give them. for example one correct view of holding is that i don't think of it as making more money but instead i consider it as a way to increase my purchasing power in the future while i still spend my bitcoins to benefit from the privacy it offers me.

What we really need to build a Bitcoin ecosystem is to let people learn Bitcoin. We can start by teaching them what they have to learn. And if there's enough people who knows Bitcoin, it's easier to spend it outside online shops. We can earn it by working here with crypto, but spending it, there's still no enough merchants. We can't promote Bitcoin if we're just always going to buy online.
Indeed, the more people uses Bitcoin, others will adjust to it.

It terms of spending, we really have to be smart about it. We can't just spend it without looking at the current market situation.

Earn and Spend, maybe since past i already did it. And yes, usually digital product like VPN that i look must be can paid with crypto no matter what crypto because i don't save money in Paypal and don't have credit card. But overall, i already satisfied with it although i still can't buy real product in my country yet with crypto because government regulation.

There is allot of cryptocurrency and people could actually use different cryptocurrencies for different purposes. Bitcoin as an example is good in terms of investment, speculation and profit. But considering the use of other cryptocurrency such as stable coins will allow users to transact with steady market price the same as dollars, and the transaction fees and speed is faster. There are also cryptocurrency suited as a trading currency which provides discount, and cryptocurrency that serves as a coupon. What we just need is to discover the capabilities of these currencies to increase our productivity.

Well bitcoin in the first place was intended to replace fiat currency and not necessarily a new form of asset. We can't really control the situation right now since many bitcoin investors will be affected but hopefully in the near future when technology is readily available we will be able to use bitcoin for purchases.

everyone has their own election and they can choose to sell, buy or hold and also invest in bitcoin. so if you see people talking about hold, there will definitely be other people who buy or sell it, don't be in a hurry to see the growth of a large ecosystem, I prefer a trip that grows little but is stable in its growth.

The biggest hurdle for me for spending Bitcoins as an American is the tax laws. American tax laws require us to report all transactions on our taxes.

This can be very cumbersome if you spend or trade a lot.

Survivability is not a big problem. An economic setup such as this would thrive, albeit with a few elements of the 'traditional' economic setup and traditional economic tools that we're used too aka fiat. Given that the majority of the world's economy is still dependent on fiat, with only a few percentage of that who are openly accepting crypto, fiat is still a must at some point. Well, we can use our coins on something we 'might' need on our browsing needs, say, a VPN just like what OP stated, or a VPS or whatever. There will always be that merchant who would be ready to accept bitcoin for his/her services and/or goods and if you have the coin, pay for it in crypto, and you are already contributing to the realization of a bitcoin ecosystem no matter how small that payment would be.

We may not see the light of day wherein everything can be bought and sold with bitcoin, but we can always create our tiny little space in the world's economy and create that ecosystem with our own coins, goods and services. Surviving does not necessarily mean outnumbering the throughput and output of the other, we just need to exist and do our own little thing while the rest of the world does theirs.

At first what i know about bitcoin, it can really help me buy some digital things. But for merchant that sell real things overseas, i am not see big merchant accept bitcoin directly yet, or maybe already not accept bitcoin anymore. But maybe if i need something that only sell in outside of my country, i think bitcoin will really help me.

The problem comes from the regulations of each country, in my country there was an island that use Bitcoin as payment, the merchants there mostly accept Bitcoin, but now such ecosystem has been gone because Bitcoin as payment is prohibited.
Another problem is volatile price, small merchant will difficult to cover it.

In addition, there are many projects that are restricted in America, blocking them with lots of opportunities to earn in cryptocurrency. Though, their regulation about their taxes seems to be effective, in cryptocurrency space, we remain anonymous, I guess not stating all our transaction is quite reasonable because of the high fees we are paying just by transacting using bitcoin and its blockchain network.

In my country, we only need to pay tax when we are about to cash out or cash in, though, it is not explicitly stated, we know they take a portion of bitcoin by each conversion we made.

When it comes to spending people tend to avoid bitcoin as a payment method due to higher fees or low confirmation, just be honest people are not willing to pay the fee while you can get a free fee using the fiat. Second, the government in some countries banning bitcoin for using it as a payment method so there's no other way than HODL it as a commodity, that's why people can only use it as an investment tool.

Creating a network of spending and purchase could actually help bitcoin in its way to becoming a full-pledged currency. See, the environment where money is regularly spent somehow lowers the inflation and the volatility rate of a certain curency. If this can be done with bitcoin, there could be a possibility that this will give way for bitcoin to become a much stabler coin that it's sipposed to be.

It's also a tool that has political implications. It's a protest, or something like it. By HODLING, you are opting-out from the current financial system, you are IN the revolution unaware.

A few comments about restrictions in the U.S, its a pity but it is an example
of why we need Bitcoin and why we need it to be more than 'a store of value'
or a get rich quick scheme, we need to be able to use it, it needs to be something
that we control rather than what governments and banks control.

I'm not saying "spend it all" though...

Actually you should hold endlessly. Save what you can, spend only what you must.

If you earn in bitcoin, only exchange what you need for living expenses.

If you earn in fiat, spend what you must and the rest move it into bitcoin.

While i use bitcoin here, this is actually what you do when you use money that does not lose value overtime. Sometimes called deflationary, it is actually simply not losing value like fiats do. In the case of bitcoin, it does gain a bit of value as some coins are lost forever (lost wallets, etc). But this is the natural thing to do. Think of what people of the past did when they had gold coins and no banks, or what you do in a fantasy game. You will notice, albeit few people pay attention, than in those games your coins don't lose their purchasing value. Unless the market is intervened, such as in MMOs. And what you do is just keep them, maybe save to buy something later. This is exactly it... The Austrian school of economy. Save then buy, not get in debt to buy now and spend the rest of your life paying the debt... You are unfortunately used to the later, as promoted by the dominant Chicago school of economy worldwide. But they don't tolerate and in fact fear money that doesn't lose value overtime, which bitcoin is.

"hyper" is a silly word, don't use it. Use bitcoin as much as you can, then fall back to deprecated fiat when there is no choice. The transition isn't easy, and probably not quick. Its not just the coin, its the whole mindset. I still see people here outraged if a bank asks for fees to keeping their money; duh, that's exactly how banks should work, at least honest banks. But you shouldn't be using banks unless absolutely needed anyway, the bank business will shrink in this new reality, unless they embrace and adapt to the new situation, become exchange, wallet, payment processor, etc during the transition which might last quite a while.

You are going against people's habits here. Hey, do not get in debt to buy that car, save until you have the money to buy it. Why this is very American thing to do, but the Chinese tend to do it the other way. Ironic actually.

Holding is just another way to say save, of course you don't need a savings account, your money isn't losing value, and sometimes even gains a bit. this is Bitcoin in its final stage, if you came thinking you could buy bitcoin today and sell it tomorrow to be come rich, forget it, you came 10 years late for that. Still in its final stage bitcoin is a very useful asset to humanity. Its away to escape the fiat trap, not to mention the fractional reserve banking timing bomb, which can take the whole world economy (except Bitcoin) overnight. It only takes critical mass of people learning about fractional reserve banking, and their choice to withdraw their money, maybe to buy bitcoin. done slowly enough, the banks can adapt and shrink gradually, but if done in panic... a worldwide bankrun is possible. This is the ultimate feat which is why you always see them bailing out the banks but not the people.

The fact that a bankrun can occur is the telltale sign of a Ponzi like scheme. Go ahead and find by yourself what fractional reserve bank is. Why is this legal? Its related to the history of the modern bank. The bankster did fractional reserve practices when that was illegal two centuries ago, some did not lose the money gambling it or loaning it, got rich, and "lobbied" politicians into legalizing the practice.

Now that i know it, i wouldn't keep large amount of savings in banks. What if enough people learn about this? You never know, maybe the scheme will still go on another 100 years and nobody will notice, or maybe, just maybe the information will spread and panic withdraws will make the system collapse. You will not be able to take your money out if this happens, bankruns are nasty, its like an exchange that fails. To avoid a world trauma, its best to do it slowly. Don't worry, the way the system works, a single country cannot take down the world (there is a world bank), same as a single bank cannot take the whole country (there is a central bank). They made it for this reason, to protect their scheme. Those "meta" banks also work with fractional reserve principles, therefore can also bankrupt.

If you are skeptic do half/half. diversifying is never wrong. Its also half as good, but that's better than losing it all.

I started buying BTC 3 years ago to HODL only.

Right now, I feel the same way that you do, so I try to keep buying BTC and pay in BTC when I can like gambling... I could end up spending more BTC than I buy.

Still looking for a way to earn BTC.

Who is willing to buy Pizzas ?

I think the number of businesses that accept Bitcoin will increase day by day. Bitcoin is already an advertising value tool. If I were a new business owner, I would like to use its popularity. Bitcoin will create its own ecosystem.