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The Proof-of-Work algorithm and the Proof-of-Stake algorithms are scams. Proof-of-Work algorithm actually costs more than it makes. This is why every single Proof-of-Work algorithm crypto has to be supported with FIAT money, which honestly speaking makes them all hybrid PoW/PoS. Proof-of-Stake is a scam because it's just money backed with money.

You seem to lack the technical knowledge and how these algorithms work and what purposes they serve, it easily indicates that your knowledge about these is superfacial and you have just built your opinion without digging up the topic in detail, I will suggest to read the technical papers of how pow and pos work and what purpose they serve then you will realize that you knew nothing while posting this.

Honestly I'm a bit disappointed about this your post OP, you need to do research on the power of demand and supply to really understand proof of work and proof of stake algorithm, calling Algorithms scam doesn't make sense

I don't. They just vacuum cash to sustain any kind of value. There is no external demand from the general population for anything that the miners produce with their expensive hardware.

Can you please explain what exactly is the commodity that is in such high demand here?

Quit talking OP, what research have you done on this? Every claims coming out of your mouth are based on your own point of view, what do you know about POW and POS? Do your own research.

Do you know that Proof of work Algorithm is used to confirm transactions? And still produce new blocks to the chain? DYOR

Yes I know that the Proof-of-Work algorithm is used to confirm transactions. The problem with it is just that this process is costly and it does not generate any value what so ever.So the blockchain costs more than it makes.

The main benefits of POW algorithm are the anti DOS Attacks defense and low impact of stake on mining possibilities, the only disadvantages of POW are huge expenditures of computations and the famous 51% Attack

I guess you meant about what has already produced by the blockchain is not worth compared with how much cose that has already usen to run the network, right? if that was a centralized system and it could be much more cheap the problem is to keep the decentralization and it needs a lot of peers to be connected into the network to create the decentralization. In this case it's much more correlated with the decentralization that makes the cost became expensive

There is no point in arguing or debating in this one.  This is a personal point of view and OP had fixated his mind on this.  So better move on and see other topics out there if you disagree.  This is all base on personal opinion and let us respect it regardless if it is the truth or not.  We all know how these two worth (POW and POS) technically so there is no need to prove it to someone who have fixated his minds on other things.

I don't think simple economics is a matter of opinion. If you think of a blockchain as an organisation. The organisation as a whole either creates profit or loss and it a has a total balance.  

Since you've already make up your mind that this two Algorithms are scam there is no point asking the audience for thoughts, none will acceptable by you, some are even explaining why we need POW but those failed to get to you, the debate is over already

Are you retarded? Those algorithm has been there for a reason and as far as many altcoin and even bitcoin concern, they have been effective on running a perfect mechanism on blockchain. I think you only look on its purpose or how it runs based on its concept but you dont understand the technical part where how ndoes and block simplify the process.

Proof of work and proof of stake are the main reasons why many coins have good value in the market today, why is ethereum the first choice for miners? Because it's profitable to mine than other coins, if you think they are scam then masternode coins aren't left out either

You've make up your mind completely, others will say otherwise and you won't see any reason in their comments, there is no need explaining to you what proof of work and proof of stake is since the full information is available on the internet and yet these algorithms are scam to you, no comment

I know what they are and the topic is the truth about the economics behind them, so it's not an opinion. They are worthless broken technology but you can still trade them because they fluctuate in value. Bitcoin has been hijacked by trading bots that just trade the predictable volatility that they themselves create. So you just need to guess what the trading bots will no next.

Proof-of-Work is not because like described, it's only an expense for the network whole. PoS has value because it's money backed with FIAT money. They mine coin, because you are buying there. There's no other reason to mine them.

Hmm. What leads you to the statement?

Scam is scam. Does it matter that scam comes from banks, real estates, stocks, bitcoin or altcoins? There are good and bad projects in crypto. Among bad projects, there are scam projects that are created initially by scammers and initial purposes of scammers are only scam investors and get a fortune to run away.

From what I see, fiats are scam too.  8)

Collection of comprehensive guides on identify and avoid scam projects (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5125435.0)

Thanks for giving out this vital points about Fiat and crypto, in fact I make the best money from crypto projects that are now abandoned, I don't care, I'm here for profits, either it will come from a shitcoin or a quality project doesn't count,  I'm more interested in profits making

You are not wrong but you are moving in all the surface. The thing you said are ideal for any projects but what keeps the prices of these projects different is the value they add. There are many addition of value to the tokens be it primarily trust for coins like Bitcoin or incentive for coins like BNB and utility for coins like Tron. Those are just examples, their are plenty of other additives as well speculations that determines the price.

If that's what you think, ok then. But you can't replace these consensus with what you are believing but if you have a better proposal to change these algos into the consensus algorithm that you know which is safer and more secured, you can give that proposal or make it happen.

Yes, I actually have. A hybrid Proof-of-Replication, Proof-of-Retrieval and Proof-of-Stake would be better because Proof-of-Replication and Proof-of-Retrieval are used for validating any data. Not only value transactions.

Mining top coins are not that cost-effective but mining a coin early which we believe will have a great future is a whole different game.
but in case of PoS you need money to make money.

Did you invented all of that? where can we find the description and explanation for those consensus'?

Actually they are. Mine bitcoin, you'll need to spend a lot of money from thousands to tens of thousands for you to have a profitable mining experience.

The same with PoW, you can mine those worthless PoW coins but they don't have value but mining those profitable and worth it PoW coins, requires you decent capital.

   I didn't see anything here to convince me that PoW and PoS are scams! While some people are making good passive income,
while Ethereum goes PoS, how can anyone believe that these two are scams?
   I need much more evidences to convince me that these two are scams. For now this thread will be just a FUD for me, when I
see some evidences I will think about changing my mind.

Your arguments are seeming not enough to back your points? Did you start this topic out of rush or after facing frustrating mining experience?

If Proof-of-Work will be profitable then you will agree it is not a scam? It must be profitable otherwise how BTC blockchain network is guarded by this much hashes? I read all mining rewards are profitable with respect to future prices. In this way those miners might be selling their rewards which were belonging to prior to 2016 blocks which was 25BTC per block. If they manage to hold until today then they must be enjoying the power of long term holding. I guess that is the one of the right way to do BTC mining.

Proof-of-Stake is as well scam? Because we need initial investment to set it? Then what costs you zero to start with? If anything available for free of cost then you will agree that is not a scam? Honestly could not get your perspective; you must add more points to stand up with your arguments.

So you are saying OP most or should I say majority of coins and tokens are scam including bitcoin and eth which utilize these protocols. I think you got it wrong and your reasoning is too shallow to be able to say its a scam. The invention of those mechanism served as building blocks for a succesful blockchain projects then your saying its a scam? I dont know know if you even know how these protocol works in blockchain. The holding statement is like a chilidish reasoning like a kid that been stolen some candy. Do some reading and analyze it.

Whooooahh, how dare you talk shit about PoW  ;D

Something cost more than it makes is a scam? Not because of inefficiency aka obsolete mining rigs?
If you can't make money out of your mining activity, it is because:
- your mining rig sucks;
- your electricity cost sucks;
- you try to mine shitcoin.

But your conclusion: PoW is a scam. Yeah right.

Yes. If something costs more than it makes. it's not an asset but a liability. It's not an investment. It's not a store of value. It's a liability. 

So according to you miners who mine PoW Bitcoin are losing money? Last time I checked Bitcoin was worth more than it costed in fiat money to mine it.

Add that it also confirms transactions and that there are fees paid willingly for every confirmation and you'll see that the ecosystem is working well.

You pay for a transaction. What does it mean that your transaction costs more than it makes? :D

That's not what I wrote. I'm talking about Bitcoin itself as a so called investment. Miners are the only ones who make money. They have not invested in Bitcoin. They have invested in mining hardware. They mine Bitcoin because people are still fooled into buying it. There is no other reason to mine it. It has no utility. It has value because people have put money in it, but it's still a liability. Liabilities cost money. They just don't make money.

Eth announced two years ago already that it's ditching PoW. The only reason they mine them is that people buy them as some kind of novelty item to possess. There is no real usage. Currency is mean to be used.

Yes FIATs are a scam too, but that's not the topic here. But because the value of PoW and PoS are supported with just FIAT, they will also go down together with FIAT. The market correlation became very clear now with the dive that Dow Jones made this spring.

You need a consensus to verify transactions and to make it legit. Without verifiers around the world, you won´t have decentralization and you can forget about network credibility. PoW means that users need to spend energy to verify transactions, Pos means that users need to spend money to buy coins and after that they are authorized to verify transaction. This prevents cheating because who would cheat against his property.

The current PoW model was an important solution to a problem of it's time. PoS brings it's own important solutions to current problems in consensus but not without potential consequences or disadvantages.
I think efficient hybrid would be good... maybe by mixing PoW with unique ID, reputation, rewards (esp coin rewards).
I will basically go for consensus algorithm that:
1. Is not hard to participate in
2. can choose the best
3. Reward all participants accordingly
4. Can't be exploited or abused
5. Is very decentralized
6. Can't be centralized
7. Is efficient
Etc...

Actually I don't see any problem with PoS coins because in real world itself the principle works that real is supposed to be getting richer and the poorer will get poorer and while you like it or not that's how it works so I see no problem if the same applies to coins.


While you have a point but let me try and explain you, people use bitcoins for various tasks that can't be achieved otherwise so they buy bitcoins and miners are getting paid to mine those coins so everyone is at benefit and that is what the power of an ecosystem is and why it exists.


But, if you look into most cryptos, they are lagging with utilities still they manage to have higher value due to speculative reasons. Based on speculations, investors and traders continuously pumping it. If people look for a coin with utility characteristics to mine, then probably they will be left with very few options which again goes against them as heavy competitions in mining leads to industry like mining which is exactly happening with BTC mining.

OK, so miners make money.

I bought Bitcoin a couple years ago and made money on my investment. I also know a bunch of people who made a lot of money on Bitcoin. If PoW is a scam, but miners made money and many investors made money, who was scammed?

From a different perspective, Bitcoin is money. Do we really have to keep making money from money? Is it really Bitcoin's purpose to bring you financial profit?
How about some financial freedom?

Yeah I know everyone has just made a lot of money in Las Vegas too, an nobody has lost any money. I know.

This is no doubt definitely a technical matter, and to be honest I'm too weak for this type of conversation.
But anyway, even I don't have any idea about what you are talking about in POS and POW just all I know was
during 2017 this two became popular by that time I just don't know this time.

Freedom.

In traditional FIAT currencies your money or time if you will is not controlled by you. Financial policies are not controlled by you. At any time the rules of the game can change, and have changed. Just recently we have observed this with the run-away printing of USD.

That is kinda interesting concept.  Care to show us how can you secure the data around these concepts?  What method will you use?  How can you prevent hijackers and hackers from modifying the data?  Will you build a centralized panel to control the flaw and verify each transaction? Or will you be using POW or POS to support the security of these concepts?

It's a peer-to-peer distributed permanent database just like a blockchain, but instead of a synchronizing the entire ledger with each transactions, it hashes the data and stores it in just few random anonymous nodes. This way hackers have no idea what to look for and where to look for it. The Proof-of-Replication algorithm replaces PoW as the validator of these events. Proof-of-Retrieval algorithm actually generates value by contributing bandwidth to the network.

Hey OP I think you need to check this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5120117.0 to get educated of what you are blabbering about. You need to understand it first before giving a nonsense judgement about the POS and POW. there are already a huge number of investors who earned a lot with these new coins and many more are gaining some profits with it by holding these coins. Of course, there is some bad side but when you called them all scam that's not really true at all.

(GUIDE) Masternode, Node, Full Node / Masternode setup with screens.  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5120117.0) is a good guide on Masternode coins and should be read by people who want to learn what PoS/ masternode coins are.

Let me say some facts about most common accusations of newbie crypto investors on projects they invest money in.

They accused projects are scam because their investments end with losses or worse with serious loses. Reasons behind can be: made wrong enter and exit prices; believe in technology evolutions; believe in promising words from the others; don't do own researches.

If you are in crypto long enough, you will see people called Bitcoin is scam, Ethereum is scam, Dash is scam, Monero is scam. All projects end with loses in their portfolios are scam in their accusations that are not true.

Are you sure on what you're talking about? Because, I'm not getting what exactly you are trying to emphasize here; probably you have not finished the as it seems only half of what you have thought has been presented here and the rest are yet to be added, it seems so. Am I right?

First you must learn what a scam and what is a system and any system does not need to be profitable but it must serve why it was designed/created and this is what those mining algorithms are doing. Regardless of profitable or not, people are mining cryptos for their own reasons and they are managing somehow to run it till date. (One common assumption is, they are saving mining rewards and selling for greater profits after some period of holding).

Everything is backed with money; could you please enlighten me on something which is not backed by money but still people are engaging into it by spending all their efforts and time (and money as well).

Food, energy and minerals are not backed with money. They are commodities with self value that can be bartered any time without money.

If it is backed by fiat money, then why you say it is scam ? If it is backed by the fiat, then it is real isn't it ?
I think crypto is not a money from thin air, it is from people's money as well. Peoples buy the coin with their money, use the coin for things, creating demands and the coin will be more valuable, other peoples mining it with their miner (which they bought with their money as well).
We want to move from using fiat money to crypto by convert our fiat money to cryptocurrency, either it is from buying or mining.

So to you, anything that does have a self value is not a scam while anything that backed under fiat and nothing else is a scam? That's very simple thinking, akin to black and white and nothing else. Sorry, I have to disagree with you.

Not only to me. It's an economic fact. It is very simple. It's not an investment if it does not have self value. It's a liability.

You obviously think there is some magic money machine that can create money from nothing, right? There is not. Any such machine would be just forgery.

In both of these ways of proof you need something (physycal or crypto resources) to participate in the Network build which is the way to protect blockchain from malicious users and make it unprofitable to try to scam the Network.

Bitcoin is a new innovation. It's a secure P2P electronic payment system, but the network itself does not create any value. That's my point.

In the absence of valid arguments all you're left with is sarcasm, I know.



How an Internet network would create value, I'm curious. Is adding a few lines of code in the database creating value or not?

It's a very valid argument to say that all people just talk about their gains and never about losses and they bullshit about the gains. So I don't believe people when they say that. Sure you might have been among those who who bough low and sold high, but my point is that, that is not a a real user case. It's no real utility to simply have virtual object that fluctuates in value. The Proof-of-Work algorithm just validates the transactions in peer-to-peer network, without the need of a 3rd party middle man as validator. This is indeed a great innovation, but it's just a system. The system itself does not create any value. It's just a tool.

I'm completely open about my investments and bought at many different levels in 2016 and 2017, most of it below 3000 dollars but some at 5 and 6 as well. I still have these coins so no selling for profit on my part. Holding something that makes me feel safe while being profitable is more than enough for me. I'm not going to chase profit around trading for a few dollars of profit every day. It's a waste of time.

You think those who bought early are not to be believed because those are the lucky few. Did I get it right? Bitcoin remained below 6000 dollars for more than 8 years. That's enough time to be among the lucky few. You underestimate hiw many people on this forum still hold Bitcoins bought for less tha 1000 USD. I can tell you it's a lot.

PayPal also only works as a middleman. A transaction validator. It does something a 1 person acting as escrow could do and its shares are worth 150 EUR a piece. Does it create any value?


A computer program or a domain also don't create value but have value.

Proof of Work algorithm is currently the most safest consensus what we have. I do not understand the hype around Proof of Stake - have you thought about the problem of PoS consensus? When you find out a bug in a protocol, you can easily destroy the whole history of the blockchain in few seconds!

Proof-of-Work is what makes a system independent and P2P unless it's hijacked and rigged like Bitcoin is. Bitcoin was the first and it had these design flaws such as increasing blocksize and transparent ledger that caused the scattered miners and devs to merger into a corporation. For example Monero has a dynamic blocksize and stealth ledger, and anonymous devs, which prevents the hijacking of the network.

Ok that's very nice. Congratulations champ. I'm just saying that 2017 wont happen again. It's impossible with so many other projects surging right now.

In my eyes, OP is just counting posts and nothing more. I'm not seeing they are providing any valid points to support what is they are trying to argue here.

Bitcoin mining must be billion dollars worth of industry right now hence when if it is a scam, I am sure there cannot be these many people will be working on that. So, when something is existing with us for years and it is serving all its purposes then it is completely meaningless to call it a scam.

POW and POS cannot be scam for any reasons. If they are scam then people definitely will not risk their hard earned money on it. They are just algorithm so the chances for being scam is very very less as far as I am concerned.

but POW has already been hacked by 51% attack many times and we all have seen how the double spending of coins happened. there is nothing really safety in the cryptocurrency. hackers will always find problem areas in the blockchain and algorithms

The algo does not prevent that attack. That algo is the only algo which is susceptible to the 51% attack. Only thing that prevents 51% attack on Bitcoin is the cots of performing that attack, because Bitcoin is so large, but because Bitcoin doesn't really scale, it's really slow and expensive.

LOL, I saw the OP's post questioning Bitcoin and it's decentralization, miners etc. Now it's PoW and PoS algos are scam? Is fiat also a scam?

If that is your argument, then we might as well say that everything is really scam and everyone should move out because we are deemed to loss money here. I think there is more narrative from the OP spreading this FUD around this community.

Believe in what you want to belief in, POS and POW Algorithm is why many coins are still alive today either through profitable mining or staking, the reason why we even make transactions easily is through these Algorithms, I don't understand anything other than this.