Bitcoin Forum

    As per request from Mbitr (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5290065.msg55741621#msg55741621)  will do as follows>>  I will place under water for 2 weeks...test and place and leave in the glass for a loong time and every few weeks will test and place again...and on and on  :D. Will update this thread monthly on results.

   

   

2nd December 2020  One wallet dipped in for a few seconds and tested afterwards> Passed

2nd December 2020  One Wallet submerged under water for 12 hours and tested afterwards> Passed

3rd December 2020 One wallet, same of yesterday using TerraSlate paper submersed until>>

3rd December 2020 Ordered another type of waterproof paper by https://www.riteintherain.com/. Will submerse once received and give same test

7th December 2020 Rite in the rain arrived...submersed under water

9th December 2020 Tested....read QR...no problem..company sending me Duracopy...will test as well

11th December 2020 Tested....read QR terra and riterain...changed water and ADDED REVLAR paper wallet

27th December 2020 Tested....read QR terra,Revlar and riterain...changed water and ADDED DURACOPY paper wallet

22nd January 2021 Tested....read QR terra,Revlar and riterain,Duracopy...changed water

12th February 2021 Tested....read QR terra,Revlar and ,Duracopy...changed water Removed riterain...still readable but turning brownish color. The rest are still the same

12th April 2021 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar and Duracopy...changed water

19th July 2021 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar and Duracopy...changed water

4th October 2021 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar and Duracopy...changed water

20th March  2022 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar and Duracopy...changed water

13th June  2022 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar and Duracopy...changed water

11th September  2022 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar and Duracopy...changed water

3rd February 2023 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar and Duracopy...changed water

 28 April 2023 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar and Duracopy...changed water and added regular paper

2nd July 2023 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar, Duracopy and regular paper...changed water

11th September 2023 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar, Duracopy and regular paper...changed water...added loaded wallet.

27th November 2023 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar, Duracopy and loaded paper wallet...still loaded!  Threw out regular paper.

1st MArch 2024 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar, Duracopy and loaded paper wallet...still loaded!

This is important to note:


And the riteintherain paper:

So true...i tried inkjet and nothing really printed..so it would be very obvious inkjet would not be compatable. Laserprint is the way I am testing...but thanks for highlighting that fact.

  Updated OP as well

I can confirm through our own testing that these types of paper are indeed water resistant.

Laser based keys do not get damaged in water either.

We tested this by actually placing a polymer Polymerbit note at the bottom of a lake to see if there was any impact.

Also strong streams/jets of water do not cause an impact either from what we saw.

  Thankyou for sharing that...good to know

I have been using Revlar for a while now.
https://www.relyco.com/products/synthetic-paper/revlar-premium-synthetic-paper/
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5141818

PM me your address (I know I have it someplace) and I'll get a few sheets out to you this week.
Works well, very tough.

Many people use it for archival reasons, it was recommended to me by several people who need it and did a lot of research before choosing it.
Waterproof and really tough. Can't rip it have to cut it.

-Dave

Rite in the rain arrived...submersed under water. This is tearable paper unlike Terra Slate...though rite in the rain also sell Duracopy which is similar to Terra slate and I might need to also get for this experiment.

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/06/12/AgqB1.jpeg

Thanks for this interesting thread of great contribution to the community ;)

awaiting final conclusions about this Rite in the rain  :D

Interesting thought(s),

I wonder how much would the quality and additives in the local water matter to the effect on the paper. Some places put in a lot more anti-microbial / bacterial / etc. Due to more "stuff" in the local supply.

Will a new HP printer with OEM toner stick the toner to the paper better then a 7 year old Brother printer with some generic toner bought off eBay. Or will the cheap toner stick better?

-Dave

  Great questions indeed and I am sure any chemicals in the water will effect any type of material subject to it being immersed into.

  I also have come across some great water proof capsules HRX Package Outdoor Waterproof EDC Survival Container Capsule, Airtight Aluminum Pill Bottle Match Seal Storage Case Camping Essentials Emergency Tool
 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07DK8LKM6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)  One can roll the paper wallets or qr codes and store inside.

  And, what better place to place your paper wallets but in a fire Fireproof Document Bag Legal Size: 11" x 15" Fire Proof Bag with Waterproof Coating to Protect Important Documents from Fire, Bug Out Bags  (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07VBSJMFP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

Dave...Revlar received...thankyou! Added a wallet in the water with the other two.

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/06/12/Agldm.png

How does the Revlar "feel" vs. the other ones.
You would never mistake it for regular paper, do the other other feel more or less paper like or all they all about the same?
I know to keep the non tear features it will never have a 100% paper feel but something a bit softer would not be bad.

-Dave

Rite in the rain feels like paper the most...and it tears and a bit soggy.

 Terra and Revlar...look and feel similar.

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/06/12/AgxzW.png

Scanned all submersed paper wallets just fine. Almost a month under water for the starter one. Added Duracopy with the rest.

So now we have RitenRain, Duracopy, Revlar and TerraSLate. Changed the water and filled to the top.

    For people who have paper wallets and are interested sweeping with private keys offline first then broadcasting raw transaction without ever exposing the private keys this article should be of interested to you. One member showed interest and I made a thread on it using an air gapped cell phone with a hot cell phone and also if preferring a laptop along an air gapped cell both using Electrum. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5303860.msg55941150#msg55941150 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5303860.msg55941150#msg55941150)

    Remember there is always a chance you can sweep a paper wallet using a hot wallet and if malware or a virus is present they can sweep your keys before you can. This method can eliminate that possibility and you will have a chance to double check the transmission amount and btc addy it is going to.

thanks for this - I am going to start using this paper for all the ones I generate for the chips I sell and/or fund.

PM me your address I'll send you a few sheets of revlar to play with.
Since it is hard and thick (heh heh heh he said it's hard and think) it might not be the easiest to get under the holograms of coins and such.

Much like the ones I sent to krogoth they are not white matched since most of them come from different batches.
Doing stuff like this it does not matter, but for archival contracts that fill binders it's noticeable. Different shades of white paper, 20 years ago I never would have thought that would be an issue in my life.

-Dave

  Using yours and the others with no issue whatsoever. I actually am printing the private key twice in two different formats, I am placing the keys on one paper and then printing the QR code on the other.Its more time consuming for me but I feel its worth it.
  
This way when people are using whatever wallet to redeem, they will have the option of either placing the keys one by one, or scanning via QR code.

   And at the same time its waterproof so no worries about a flood. ;)

I don't have any of these water proof papers, so what I've been doing is painting or brushing my normal paper laser print outs with some white glue (elmer's glue.)

The intent is to cover the paper in transparent epoxy resin after the white glue is dry. That makes it hard too (some 9500 psi hard or something). It's not fireproof at that point but that's what a safe is for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxL59BgzNPY

This is a video of paper permanently encased in transparent epoxy resin. Just replace the dollar bills with your paper wallet.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lxL59BgzNPY/maxresdefault.jpg

   I did the resin test with some QR codes as seen in this photo...then placed in my aquarium. What better place to protect my paper wallet than at the bottom of my shark tank! :D

    https://talkimg.com/images/2023/06/12/Ai2hJ.png

   What I did have to do is laminate the QR code first then pour the resin, which heats up quite a bit. And I recommend doing it outdoors as the fumes can be quite strong.

If I were to write down on these papers with a ballpoint pen or sharpie how would that behave under water? I am wondering if I should get a couple of these to write down my seed phrases.

  If you notice I wrote some wording on the first wallet I made over a month ago with a regular ballpen and nothing happened tp the ink so far.

  I am sure you will find water proof pens out there that are better.

Laminate does the same thing, but Elmer's glue is what the artists have used to "seal the paper"... that should also work for thermally printed paper wallets. I think if you try to laminate thermal paper, it's going to go all black on you because of the heat required.

   The laminate I used just before I poured the epoxy was the glue on type, not heated, and that's to protect the paper from getting soaked by the epoxy.

   Never tested it with any of these papers I am testing now, so was using normal paper.

Took out papers and scanned. Also took pic for the record all laying next to each other.

As you can see, Terra slate paper, Revlar and Ritnrain's Duracopy are in perfect condition...all scanned and are intact

Ritneintherain all weather paper is soggy and yellowing a bit on the edges, but it still in good shape to read the qr codes.

The regular ink I used to mark Terra slate is also intact.

Paper out for less than a minute and all were immersed back in the water right away

https://talkimg.com/images/2024/03/01/fmMt1.png

Took out papers and scanned. Also took pic for the record all laying next to each other.

As you can see, Terra slate paper, Revlar and Ritnrain's Duracopy are in perfect condition...all scanned and are intact

Ritnrain all weather paper is soggy and yellowing a bit on the edges, able to read the QR but turning too brownish..so removed from water

The regular ink I used to mark Terra slate is also intact.

Paper out for less than a minute and all were immersed back in the water right away.


https://talkimg.com/images/2024/03/01/fMOGc.png

Late to this and I didn't read the thread, but I have been using a laser printer with vellum paper. This is not simply ink on paper.  The heat of the printing process actually bonds the graphite & vellum into one unit. I tested a qr code by leaving it in water for a week & also in rubbing alcohol. Scratching is impossible as well. Just some food for thought. I've been using this method for many years and recently peeled a 5 year old wallet showing no degradation and an easy scan.

19th July 2021 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar and Duracopy...changed water

All still good ;)

4th Ocotober.........Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar and Duracopy...changed water

All still good  :)

This test will be almost a year on the 2nd of December!  :D

I use the revlar myself and quite satisfied with it so far.

  Yes...they are all good imo....I have used all samples sent to me...but when I ran out I bought more Terra.

daveF sent me some revlar to test - after that I simply just bought more from amazon. do you see any advantage of one over the other?

    Lol....I got some revlar thru DaveF as well. No I do not see any difference...it's just that I started with Terra pack and just out of pure habit went with Terra. They all are doing great in the water test!

good to know. thanks!

https://i.imgur.com/S5pP301.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/x3p7Kfh.jpg

Well its been a year since I started this water test on water proof papers and the QR codes for paper wallets made.

Everything works fine and nothing has changed since I started in 2020. Will continue the test and place the water submerged papers back in the shed and see what comes out of it down the line.

Interesting test krogo, some impressive lab results you got there! :D

I appreciate such kind of experiments... in Italy some stamp collectors use "Gasoline" (a specific type used for Zippo lighter) since it's easy to evaporate and ... protect the stamps from mushrooms/stains etc.
no it doesn't work for "all stamps" and I have a couple of exceptions  ::)

In this case @OP personally I think it's probably interesting also know:
- salts? minerals? ph?! of the water? (E.G I mean if you use sea water is the same result?!)
- same temperature of the water during the whole experiment? (E.G. What happens with higher temperature?!)
- there is the risk that paper get damage? (E.G what happens if/when paper "touch" the vials or other paper?!)

  Some very good points... the whole point of the exercise was to see if my paper wallets using these papers would still be readable if exposed to water.

  Yes there are many variables, but I I only used tap water which I change one a month or so to prevent microbes,mold or algae from forming.

  I wish I had the time...PATIENCE( :D) and tools to do those experiments as well...maybe when I retire some day  ;)

  I use the Terra paper on all my products and am very pleased with these results.In case any of my products ever get exposed to water, at least they will not smear the ink or turn into paper mush.

   Thanks for the input though.

  And as for stamps, I have heard people using lighter fluid to expose the watermark. What I do to protect my stamp collection is buy silica gel packets to keep humidity low and also place in an airtight container as well.

awesome idea an experiment like that, mine was just a suggestion... nothing more.
It's not everyday matter find some one that is doing "experiment" with printed paper  :o thank you for the idea!

definitely , the main reason people use lighter fluid (also called in Italy as "benzina avio") is watermark exposition.
it doesn't work every time, and seriously I have damaged in that way a couple of old italian stamps. (now are "transparent").

If there is not a damage, Effectively it helps against stains other dirty stuff like microbes etc etc on surface.

some collectors have explained that when you use this product it's like a way for "killing" / "sterilizing" the paper itself. there are 2 explanations (scientific speaking):

- it create a small layer that protect the stamp. (it means also for the future you're protect against these stain etc etc).
- it works like an antibiotics ( ;D yes I mean, probably lighter fluid can be considered just as ....a disinfectant).

about using "different" condition, it's just because ... it's science, it's like a discovery... as you seen even using just lighter fluid, starting from exposing watermarks now they have find a way to protect old stamp from external agent.

20th March  2022 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar and Duracopy...changed water. Still good! Way past a year now submersed. Amazing paper. Glad I use the Terra all the time for the Priv keys  ;)

This is great, thanks for testing this.

Thinking of ways to utilize such paper in my projects.

      I believe only laser printers can be used on the Terra, and it has lasted soo long under water. Pretty remarkable really.

      I use this waterproof paper for any items I want to archive away...especially paper wallets I generate. No need to worry about any water damage there  ;)

13th June  2022 Tested....read QR Terra, Revlar and Duracopy...changed water

 These wallets have been under water for close to two years now in December and hodling strong!



  https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/14/blobcc5bf5acbd74e33b.png

Notice that the sharpie is fading.

  Indeed it is but the priinted laserjet ink is prisitine.

  The sharpie was not part of the test...as it was only showing who the manufacturer of the paper was.

   Sharpie was also not waterproof ink.

Took paper out and tested all fine as always!  Changed water....going on almost two years in December now with this experiment.

  https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/14/blob10ea659191c07c4a.jpeg

Nice to see this follow-up on your test project!

Seems like it is a perfect candidate for doing this!  ;D

Awesome man thank you for this. I have to buy some paper from one of these that you’ve been testing for 2+ years. Do you have a preference? I’ve never used any of them so not sure which one I should get. Any recommendations would be appreciated! Thanks again for the time taken to do this test!

  Thanks......I use Terra paper for all my private keys. And yeah this test will be kept ongoing for as long as I can keep it rolling

Took papers out and tested all OK! Changed water as well.


    This December will be the 2 year anniversary of when this test started! And will hopefully go on for many more years!



https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/14/blobacaee2a4829de927.jpeg

Could you do a small test for abrasion resistance? I wonder how soft the paper might get.

   It's not soft still solid as the day I placed in water...it's a form of plastic and I am sure will last many more years

glad to see the paper that I use (revlar) is holding up as well.

  Yes they are all good. I use Terra as it was the first I came across and bought to use for my loaded items. I have been sent samples of both Revlar and Duracopy....I like em all

Both the inks and the paper are lasting so long because they are both heavily polyester / plastics based.

The toner you see in laser printers is mostly polyester (85-95%) and silica (+ trace metals to create a charge in the drum).

The "K" cartridge, ie. black is colored by carbon.

Secondly, when you print on this paper, you are actually printing on a three layer material, with the ink being deposited on a thin plastic layer.

-----

What this all means is you have an extremely stable substrate and non-permeable print.

Frankly, I would be surprised if you witness any fading / flaking in 2030. The only way to really damage these keys are through heat, lasers or direct scratching.

  HA! Coming from a true expert on this.  Thanks that clarifies lots of things as well for many here.

   Next time when back in Manhattan we can talk over dinner! On me of course ;)
  Cheers

 Test ongoing for two years as of yesterday and still going strong  ;)

For real harsh enviroment you could try to leave it for like 5m in boiling water? It is really unlikely to survive but would account for a lot of use and temp change.
Lovely thing to see that exists, it was my biggest worry on paper wallets.

This is a great thread, well done Krog
I still love seeing those Mycelium Entropy paper wallets, brings back memories

   Yes...that Entropy stick sure has created many paper wallets for myself...I love how easy it is to just plug and print away!

Great update Krogoth.

If the printed paper has lasted this long I guess its a result,  what could change that result
going forward? the PH of the water? added chemicals like chlorine perhaps - IDK...

Anyway this is a great service for the community you are giving!

Was thinking it would be interesting to get water from all over the US and if possible other countries and do the same test.
NYC has some of the cleanest water around
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKgCzBgIGhs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDLkOWW0_xg

Getting some water from Texas may or may not dissolve the paper itself:
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/28092022/texas-is-now-the-nations-biggest-emitter-of-toxic-substances-into-streams-rivers-and-lakes/

But seriously, just the different minerals and

Revlar also now has a different 'softer' paper. https://www.relyco.com/products-by-category/synthetic-papers/revlar-soft.html
However, since it's $270 for the smallest box I am going to hold off on ordering until I can find a client to foot the bill for it.

-Dave

   Good questions....but who knows...I am not testing the PH or chlorine level in the water.

   I assume the chlorine will eventually evaporate out of the water.

   The whole idea behind this is to see what paper and ink would last the longest. And so far all three different makes are hodling up pretty good.

   Believe it or not the ink is a standard inkjet printer ...the ink is not as far as I know water proof but it looks like it is doing well.

   I change the water every few months as it becomes stagnant and mold also starts growing inside cup.

   I used Terra on my priv keys, and if they can hodl so long in this test I am going to assume they will hodl much longer under a hologram
that is basically an air sealed capsule that will not allow any contaminants inside thru time.

Pulled out the paper....tested all qr codes...Papers are in excellent shape with no signs of any erosion from being in the water almost 2.5 years!

   This December will mark the third year from when the test has started and will stay ongoing for as long as I can possible do it.

   I just think that nothing will change...time will prove me right or wrong. Below is a pic of the papers and their respective company brand.

   https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/14/bloba8b9cab1f9d35a79.jpeg

Looks amazing, after 2.5 years I can't spot any difference. Can I use a regular printer?

   Yes they do look amazing....seems just like the day I immersed them under water.

   And I had to use a laser printer....I believe thats the only way to print on these papers.

   I mostly use Terra papers for all my private keys.....and it looks like this is the best way.

  I mean if they survived water for so many years...they will last a very long time under the hologram protected away from the air and light!
     

A for awesome effort.
Paper and ink having some promised specs is one thing, but seeing these hold up in a real world test is still something else.

Not sure if it fits your setup, but a reference test with normal paper and/or normal ink would be cool, too.

This is good stuff right here. I only use Terra now too. After seeing some of the post where people are struggling to redeem and read the key, it made people seek better options. The paper wasn't even a decade old. I love this kind of detailed data that can help better the products and make redeeming less of an issue.

     Thanks and indeed they do!  The people have spoken...excellent idea!.... and thus I have added regular paper as follows.

     I have used a laser printer on regular paper...

      https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/14/blobd80c26f1c5915baa.jpeg

   You are quite right.....I do not think past coinmakers thought it thru that the paper or ink will cause issues in the long run...ig they thought there would be a long run and if so...who knows how many years.

   By doing it on these papers with real world test as I am doing right now will put the coinmaker and the customers mind at ease that nothing could possibly happen to the ink or the paper under the hologram!

Pulled out the paper....tested all qr codes...all can be read even the regular paper!

  But as you can se the regular paper has started turning black at the edges...probably that part of the paper was exposed to the air and is getting moldy!

  Its just a matter of time before it will be unreadable..but we shall see. The rest of the waterproof papers are in excellent shape with no signs of any erosion from being in the water almost 3 years!

  https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/07/02/SKSqW.jpeg

   

Looks like the normal paper won't even last a year.

   Its only been inserted since April...and its already molding....I don't think it will make it till October .

   Just goes to show how important it is to use the right kind of paper for paper wallets.

   Will update again in a few months and then we shall see where we are at.

   

  Drained the water and pulled out the paper...I was able to read all the QR codes believe or not.

   The regular paper is moldy and also turning into jello...its ready to fall to pieces and is also moldy.

   The rest are as good as they can be...

      https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/11/6aij5.jpeg

Thank you @krogothmanhattan for running these tests. By the way, I didn't know about this type of paper - but I also had never researched it.

I noticed that the tests you carried out were on laser printer paper. Or am I mistaken?

You motivated my research, and find a paper that says it works in inkjet: https://www.graytex.com/inkjet-ruff-n-tuff-paper.htm
Did you get to test this one?

  Hi thanks!  And correct this was all done on a laser printer. No I have not tested this one...If you have a spare paper from that company please let me know and you can send me a sample if you wish and I will add to the test. Cheers!

   

I'm from Europe, and I only found this paper now... :-\
I will try to find this type of role, here in Europe, and then test it.

Are you going to continue with the papers in the water, or are you done with your experience?

Free samples are available. They are TX based so probably easier for you to get some here then someone in the EU

https://www.graytex.com/graytex-faq.htm#samples

I know it's not that simple, but still think it would be interesting to see how the different papers deal with water from different parts of the country and world.

-Dave

  Aye I do plan to continue indefinitely for a very long time....no plans on stopping yet.

  Will try and get a sample as Dave F suggested and add to the list

   Hi Dave...thankts for pointing and sharing that addy. I will reach out to them and get a sample and add to my water cup test ;)

  I just checked out Terraslate's website and they mention this thread about paper wallets being submersed and tested!  

  https://terraslatepaper.com/blogs/news/terraslate-paper-used-to-make-bitcoin-wallets (https://terraslatepaper.com/blogs/news/terraslate-paper-used-to-make-bitcoin-wallets)
  

  

 So added another strip of TERRAPAPER with a loaded BIP38 paper wallet loaded with $100 in BTC.

  Lets see water wash away the BTC  :D.  If you can crack it you can have it.  :o

  https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/09/24/Pu8Jd.jpeg

Drained the water and pulled out the paper...I was able to read all the QR codes except for the regular paper which has turned moldy and completely into Jello...so I threw out.

   The loaded paper wallet is still loaded as well...so loaded and submersed  :D

     
https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/11/27/NHF9g.jpeg

Drained the water and pulled out the paper...I was able to read all the QR codes

   The loaded paper wallet is still loaded as well...so loaded and submersed  :D

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/03/01/yUm6I.jpeg

impossible to decrypt without some clue, I really would like to have btc

    That's the idea behind the BIP38 and the password was randomly punched on the keyboard!

    I did the same thing back in 2017 with my online version of the very first stamp and it was loaded with 0.02 BTC and its still loaded as well.

     https://www.crypto-stamps.com/private3.html

    Mike Caldwell's program is top notch for protecting your private keys!

I agree - bip38 is great.

Found this stuff: https://www.stone-paper.com/en/stone-paper-the-environment-friendly/

https://rocastonepaper.com/


There are a couple of different brands out there that are all similar. Do you want to add to the test?
Might not get 8.5: x 11" but if you can stick the notebook sized stuff in your printer it should work.

-Dave

  Thanks for sharing these stone papers Dave!  If anyone buys them and wants to send one paper to me for testing...please do so.
 I will then add to the water experiment.  Cheers!

I have a sample of this that I can send you for testing!! :D

  THanks MJ...looking forward for it to arrive!  Cheers to ye all!