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Title: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: tranthidung on March 19, 2021, 07:56:00 AM Rich List definition
2264 bitcoin addresses that have 1000+ BTC as of writing. You can check it instantly with [5] (you don't have to wait for any publications. Check it by yourself with that link anytime) Given articles and charts can tell you the story. I don't try to paraphrase the opinions that are already discussed in those articles. Here, I only want to emphasize one point:
Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: Wind_FURY on March 19, 2021, 09:39:54 AM I believe the lesser and lesser “> 1000 coin” wallets in the rich list, the more and more Bitcoin is being distributed, and adopted by more people. We should be very concerned if there was an increasing “> 1000 coin” wallets, especially during bull market cycles.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: mk4 on March 19, 2021, 09:42:30 AM I believe the lesser and lesser “> 1000 coin” wallets in the rich list, the more and more Bitcoin is being distributed, and adopted by more people. In general, I agree. Though that could be a slightly inaccurate indicator though knowing that people with huge amounts of bitcoin could simply spread out their coins on multiple wallets.We should be very concerned if there was an increasing “> 1000 coin” wallets during bull markets. It's both a positive and a negative, really. If it's the case:The positive: It probably means that there are more bitcoin exchanges(services in general) opening. This kinda helps in terms of adoption and publicity. The negative: It probably means that people are depositing more and more bitcoin to centralized services. Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: BITCOIN4X on March 19, 2021, 10:22:42 AM I believe the lesser and lesser “> 1000 coin” wallets in the rich list, the more and more Bitcoin is being distributed, and adopted by more people. Owners of 1000+ bitcoin wallet may be tempted to secure profit by sending their bitcoin to multiple wallet which they can then sell without affecting the market much. This is sure to shrink the list of people who have 1000+ bitcoin in their wallet.We should be very concerned if there was an increasing “> 1000 coin” wallets, especially during bull market cycles. Is that the best way to guard against falling price?Currently, the total circulating supply of bitcoin in circulation is over 18.6 million or 89%. If the total circulating supply increase significantly then there is something to watch out for and that is the price. https://blockchain.info/q/totalbc Code: Circulating Supply BTC= 18.658.093 Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: DdmrDdmr on March 19, 2021, 10:35:06 AM What would be interesting to see, and I was looking around for, would be a site that would break down those segments (or similar ones) by age (first TX) and last TX, with say a granularity of a year. The idea is to determine how many addresses have been still for how many years since their "creation". There are some sites with graphs by age since last tx, but it’s not quite what I has in mind.
The Rich List site for example allows one to view the above on an address by address basis for a certain number of address, but not overall clusters. Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: Wind_FURY on March 20, 2021, 06:57:43 AM I believe the lesser and lesser “> 1000 coin” wallets in the rich list, the more and more Bitcoin is being distributed, and adopted by more people. In general, I agree. Though that could be a slightly inaccurate indicator though knowing that people with huge amounts of bitcoin could simply spread out their coins on multiple wallets. We should be very concerned if there was an increasing “> 1000 coin” wallets during bull markets. It's both a positive and a negative, really. If it's the case: The positive: It probably means that there are more bitcoin exchanges(services in general) opening. This kinda helps in terms of adoption and publicity. The negative: It probably means that people are depositing more and more bitcoin to centralized services. It’s debatable. But personally, the viewpoint should always be not to trust third party custodians. I brought this question before in one topic, “If enough of the coins are in custody of large third parties, that gives them the ability to censor the user, has Bitcoin failed”? Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: mk4 on March 20, 2021, 07:01:26 AM It’s debatable. But personally, the viewpoint should always be not to trust third party custodians. I brought this question before in one topic, “If enough of the coins are in custody of large third parties, that gives them the ability to censor the user, has Bitcoin failed”? Oh sure, it's hugely debatable. And while I definitely get your point, unfortunately we simply need custodians early on. Not everyone is ready to "be your own bank" right off the bat, because it's undoubtedly going to be a very very foreign concept for most people because everyone has simply gotten so used to custodians. The goal is to just slowly but surely steer people off custodians as they learn more and more about bitcoin and self sovereignty. Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: Kittygalore on March 20, 2021, 07:16:46 AM Oh sure, it's hugely debatable. And while I definitely get your point, unfortunately we simply need custodians early on. Not everyone is ready to "be your own bank" right off the bat, because it's undoubtedly going to be a very very foreign concept for most people because everyone has simply gotten so used to custodians. The goal is to just slowly but surely steer people off custodians as they learn more and more about bitcoin and self sovereignty. You are right, the narrative of being your own bank has been so ingrained that we forgot that not everyone has the ability or wants to keep up with the technology that makes them independent of custodians. I agree with the idea of taking it slow because it helps bitcoin seep in to the depths and I don't want bitcoin to become a one-hit wonder.Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: aysg76 on March 20, 2021, 08:47:44 AM I believe the lesser and lesser “> 1000 coin” wallets in the rich list, the more and more Bitcoin is being distributed, and adopted by more people. We should be very concerned if there was an increasing “> 1000 coin” wallets, especially during bull market cycles. But in actual the whales of market are increasing with rise in demand of Bitcoin and major portion of supply is being concentrated in few hands which is serious concern.https://i.ibb.co/DRrxj6F/Screenshot-20210320-141401-01.jpg (https://ibb.co/gR45cX8) The increase in prices is decreasing the chance of normal people to afford Bitcoins but we should invest what we can afford to invest in btc which will eventually grow your returns in the long run instead of debating on this topic we don't have any solution to this problem. Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: tranthidung on March 20, 2021, 11:09:01 AM In general, I agree. Though that could be a slightly inaccurate indicator though knowing that people with huge amounts of bitcoin could simply spread out their coins on multiple wallets. It is what I noted in OP. That free rich list is for addresses, not for people or entities. The market is manipulated by people, entities, institutes, not addresses. The list can be used as a reference but with some reminders about its potential biases and inaccuracy.I believe the lesser and lesser “> 1000 coin” wallets in the rich list, the more and more Bitcoin is being distributed, and adopted by more people. We should be very concerned if there was an increasing “> 1000 coin” wallets, especially during bull market cycles. Rich list definition is defined by that site as that but you, me and others can define our own definitions. You are right that the rich list definition will be changed. It can be changed with smaller amount of BTC, down to 500+, 200+ or 100+ or changed to fiat value (USD value).Owners of 1000+ bitcoin wallet may be tempted to secure profit by sending their bitcoin to multiple wallet which they can then sell without affecting the market much. This is sure to shrink the list of people who have 1000+ bitcoin in their wallet. Totally correct. It is inaccurate interpretation of big bitcoin transactions from whales bot alerts (https://whale-alert.io/). We always see big movements at very right time of market decisions. Whales are smart enough to finish their trades silently but they do it noisy. It's just one of tools to finish their plans.Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: Saint-loup on March 20, 2021, 12:15:05 PM I believe the lesser and lesser “> 1000 coin” wallets in the rich list, the more and more Bitcoin is being distributed, and adopted by more people. We should be very concerned if there was an increasing “> 1000 coin” wallets, especially during bull market cycles. But in actual the whales of market are increasing with rise in demand of Bitcoin and major portion of supply is being concentrated in few hands which is serious concern.https://i.ibb.co/DRrxj6F/Screenshot-20210320-141401-01.jpg (https://ibb.co/gR45cX8) The increase in prices is decreasing the chance of normal people to afford Bitcoins but we should invest what we can afford to invest in btc which will eventually grow your returns in the long run instead of debating on this topic we don't have any solution to this problem. Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: tranthidung on March 21, 2021, 06:09:12 AM What would be interesting to see, and I was looking around for, would be a site that would break down those segments (or similar ones) by age (first TX) and last TX, with say a granularity of a year. The idea is to determine how many addresses have been still for how many years since their "creation". There are some sites with graphs by age since last tx, but it’s not quite what I has in mind. I think you can scrape data and make your follow-up data. There is available list of top 100 addresses in the rich listThe Rich List site for example allows one to view the above on an address by address basis for a certain number of address, but not overall clusters.
My thoughts:
Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: DdmrDdmr on March 21, 2021, 09:00:33 AM <…> You can’t really other than for a few addresses, and my ideal goal would be to be able to do it with all the addresses. I’ve downloaded in the past tables with 30++ million addresses with an associated positive balance, but either they lacked the necessary columns or they seemed to be wrong/outdated. Probably playing around with a full node is the best approach, but I’ll let that slip for now. What I has in mind would be something along the line of: BTC amount Segment, Address age (year of first TX) Address last movement (year of last TX), number of addresses that meet the three segments. Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: mk4 on March 21, 2021, 09:05:16 AM You can try to change my mind but that doesn't look like fair distribution. Bitcoin has one of the most(or maybe the most) fairest initial distributions in the entirety of the cryptocurrency space. As with the current distribution of coins, well, what do you propose then? Not allow people with deep pockets to buy bitcoin lol? Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: Lucius on March 21, 2021, 12:03:20 PM You can try to change my mind but that doesn't look like fair distribution. I first heard about Bitcoin in late 2011, but it wasn’t until mid-2014 that I took it seriously - should I blame someone for it? Just because you may have first heard of BTC a few months or days ago does not mean that the distribution is unfair, everyone has had a completely open opportunity from day one to come into possession of any amount of BTC in any way. Gavin Andresen once had a faucet that gave 5 BTC as a reward for one solved captcha, and 5-6 years ago I earned my first BTC literally through faucets. Instead of thinking that distribution is unfair, try to think about how you can take your share too - there are many ways to do it. Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: LoyceV on March 21, 2021, 12:05:54 PM I believe the lesser and lesser “> 1000 coin” wallets in the rich list, the more and more Bitcoin is being distributed, and adopted by more people. We should be very concerned if there was an increasing “> 1000 coin” wallets, especially during bull market cycles. I have some data (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5254914.0) on older balances:Code: wget -qO- http://addresses.loyce.club/blockchair_bitcoin_addresses_and_balance_March_21_2021.tsv.gz | gunzip | grep -v balance | head -n 100000 | cut -f 2 | perl -nle 'print if length$_>11' | wc -l March 21, 2021: 2270 March 20, 2021: 2277 March 19, 2021: 2277 March 1, 2021: 2385 February 1, 2021: 2469 January 1, 2021: 2268 December 1, 2020: 2265 September 10, 2020: 2193 The number of addresses with 1000 or more Bitcoin went up, then down. I can't really conclude anything from this. What would be interesting to see, and I was looking around for, would be a site that would break down those segments (or similar ones) by age (first TX) and last TX, with say a granularity of a year. The idea is to determine how many addresses have been still for how many years since their "creation". If you want to do this without parsing the blockchain by yourself, I have 562 GB of block data (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5307550.0) you can use :)This would also allow to make a day-to-day graph showing the number of addresses with at least a certain balance. I'd also like to see a graph showing the number of Bitcoin addresses worth at least a certain amount in dollars. “If enough of the coins are in custody of large third parties, that gives them the ability to censor the user, has Bitcoin failed”? No. Some of the Bitcoin users fail all the time (mostly by getting scammed), that doesn't mean Bitcoin itself doesn't work as expected.Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: DdmrDdmr on March 21, 2021, 01:51:34 PM <...> I'll skip attempting to tackle if for the time being, but it would be an interesting little project. I’d have thought that there’d be an open site that breaks the data down in the intended manner (probably based on periodical snapshots – i.e. per month at most in terms of granularity). I’ve briefly seen some interesting old projects that allow one to perform SQL type queries (http[colon]//blockchainsql[dot]io/) on the data, but unfortunately it seems to only provide data up until 2017. Edit: One can find some datasets to query with Google Bigquery, but you soon encounter free account limits (i.e. a simple select to determine the max TX date of the blockchain costs over 4GB of query data space; all to return a single row of data). Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: kryptqnick on March 21, 2021, 02:51:45 PM Here, I only want to emphasize one point: Rich addresses aren't necessarily those that make the biggest impact on the price. From what I've seen, some of these belong to exchanges, for instance, so they're not showing where someone very rich is hodling BTC. There are also very rich addresses which, however, don't show much movement over the years. This might be money someone forgot about or lost access to, so this also doesn't affect the market. Also, when someone wants to make a very big buy/sell operations, they're not done on exchanges, but rather OTC, so they also don't affect the prices. Finally, there are those who have a lot of BTC, but the coins are dispersed, so that they are not under anyone's attention (for example, Tesla's coins exist, but the addresses are unknown). I think that instead of following the dynamics of the rich addresses, it's more useful to just follow the news because nothing triggers the price changes more than FUD or hype in the media.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: Karartma1 on March 21, 2021, 03:09:44 PM The Bitcoin Rich List, as others have pointed out, is misleading since anyone can (and should) hold their funds in multiple addresses. Leaving one's funds in one single address is beyond stupid and very dangerous. Apart from exchanges and custodians who are more or less obliged, other users should have multiple addresses in accordance with their availability. Redundancy rules
Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: BrewMaster on March 21, 2021, 03:13:40 PM You can try to change my mind but that doesn't look like fair distribution. you are confusing bitcoin with a premined shitcoin that is being "distributed". bitcoin is NOT like that at all. there was no premine, no ICO token sale, or anything like that. every single satoshi that you see today is earned through performing work by those we refer to as "miners". that makes it a fair "distribution". Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: tranthidung on March 21, 2021, 03:42:21 PM Rich addresses aren't necessarily those that make the biggest impact on the price. I expressed my thoughts here (so I agree with you)
Quote From what I've seen, some of these belong to exchanges, for instance, so they're not showing where someone very rich is hodling BTC. There are also very rich addresses which, however, don't show much movement over the years. This might be money someone forgot about or lost access to, so this also doesn't affect the market. There are assumptions of forever lost bitcoin from years-inactive UTXOs but we never know the exact amount. The follow-up rich list help us to see changes that are matters. LoyceV pointed out that it can be coincidence only and I believe what we see is not enough to make any valid causal inference.Quote Also, when someone wants to make a very big buy/sell operations, they're not done on exchanges, but rather OTC, so they also don't affect the prices. Finally, there are those who have a lot of BTC, but the coins are dispersed, so that they are not under anyone's attention (for example, Tesla's coins exist, but the addresses are unknown). Not correct. You misunderstood the reasons to observe movements from the public ledger. Big movements can imply something (or maybe not at all) and sometimes we don't really need to know who stays behind such movement.Big movements first, news will be released later, that's it. Quote I think that instead of following the dynamics of the rich addresses, it's more useful to just follow the news because nothing triggers the price changes more than FUD or hype in the media. Big movements or movements from old UTXOs are used to create news. :)The Bitcoin Rich List, as others have pointed out, is misleading since anyone can (and should) hold their funds in multiple addresses. Everything can be used if we take what we need and leave what we don't.About exchange flows, I know one website so go checking it and enjoy.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Rich List Post by: Karartma1 on March 22, 2021, 08:16:23 PM Nice, viewbase is what I was actually looking for! I'm trying to analyze what these inflows/outflows really mean in terms of price action and I must say that I see viewbase as a perfect complimentary source for bitcoinity and glassnode.
Merited you for that. |
