Bitcoin Forum

As I mentioned earlier, Bitcoin is the fruit of varied subjects, such as economics, monetary science, mathematics, computer science, logic, game theory, social science, anthropology and law. In learning and thinking about Bitcoin, we are supposed to put it in an integrated knowledge system instead of an isolated situation.

But if we think deeply, Bitcoin can touch upon physics, chemistry, biology even philosophy as well. Maybe no one has ever thought about Bitcoin in this way. Though what I’m going to say is indigestible, I deem it necessary to share my opinion.

Do you think Bitcoin has matter property?

Before answering, let’s make it clear about what is matter.

Some philosophical view is that everything in the world has various form and diversified development, which are all the external manifestation of objective reality, in other words, matters, the vehicle of all appearance. Matters can not be created or removed. The survival and downfall of all things is merely the transformation of different matter forms.

Movement and change are the fundamental attributes of matters. Movement generates time, change generates space, the universe is delivered by matters. Everything is certain divergent form of moving matters. The matter keeps in motion and interacts with each other. The matter has the property of maintaining the original equilibrium state, but the interaction between the matters destroys the balance. The most basic properties of matter consist of balance and movement. This contradiction promotes the transformation of matters from inorganic to organic to multi-molecular systems，promotes the evolution of matters from molecules to life.

These are the philosophy and biology category definition of matter.

Now I want to talk about physics. Physics is a discipline that studies the laws of movement and basic structure of matters. The research scope of physics includes the atom to the universe, so it has become the research foundation of other natural science disciplines. Physics is an experimental science, and it is also a science that advocates rationality and values logical reasoning. Physics uses mathematics as its working language and is the most sophisticated natural science today.

In my opinion, the most important basic characteristic of matters is "uniqueness" or "non-reproducibility". After a thing has this characteristic, we can call it "matter". The point I want to make now is: Satoshi Nakamoto created Bitcoin and gave it matter properties. This is a creation based on mathematics and algorithms. The objective substantiality of Bitcoin is directly reflected at the atomic level.

An atom is the smallest unit of ordinary matter that forms a chemical element. Every atom is composed of a nucleus and one or more electrons bound to the nucleus. Element is a pure substance consisting only of atoms that all have the same numbers of protons in their atomic nuclei. From a philosophical point of view, the element is the result of quantitative change causes qualitative changes of atomic protons. By November 2016, the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry had recognized a total of 118 elements.

What is the relationship between chemical elements and Bitcoin? After thinking about Bitcoin, we found that Bitcoin also has the basic properties of matter, uniqueness and non-reproducibility. We can understand that in the digital bit civilization, Bitcoin is a kind of matter, which has the basic properties of matter. It also obeys the physical laws of the world.

In the past, humans used silver and gold as currency, which was determined by the basic properties of gold and silver. Gold and silver are made of atoms, and humans cannot change their basic properties. Humans can only divide or merge gold, which is the uniqueness and non-replicability of matter.

Our current work and life are inseparable from the Internet, and the current Internet can be called the "Internet of Information". The biggest feature of information is that it can be copied, and there is almost no cost. When information can be copied infinitely, they lose their unique value.

Why did humans use gold as a world currency in history? Gold is suitable as currency because it is rare and chemically stable. Human history is a process of plundering gold for the past 500 years. However, with the development of modern civilization, banks have become the basic institutions of commercial civilization. Currency is no longer anchored to gold, and the value of currency is based on the credit of centralized institutions. Currency no longer uses rare precious metals as credit endorsements, but becomes numbers on bank books. These numbers can be changed or copied by the bank. The government robbed the people of their wealth by printing legal currency.

However, this situation was changed by Bitcoin created by Satoshi Nakamoto. Satoshi Nakamoto gave Bitcoin the physical existence in the Internet field. By solving the problem of currency "double payment", Satoshi Nakamoto made Bitcoin unique and non-replicable. Just take gold as an example. When I give the gold in my hand to others, I no longer own the gold. Gold cannot be manufactured, copied or tampered with by humans, nor can its physical properties be changed. I have a bitcoin in my account, and now I transfer it to someone else's account, the bitcoin in my account no longer exists. It is impossible for me to have a backup of this bitcoin and use it many times. The same piece of gold can be divided into many pieces, but a bitcoin can also be divided into many pieces. Bitcoin and gold have similar physical properties, which are also determined by the laws of physics.

A physical object is a unique combination of atoms, which can only be cut and moved, but cannot be copied or forged. However, information does not have such characteristics. People can not only read this information, but also copy it. Ledgers and currencies can be copied more easily.

In our existing business system and the Internet, the currency we use is also in the form of information, which is recorded in the bank's ledger system. For the currency information of different bank books, most of them are centrally controlled by the government. The government can continuously issue currency through the central bank. Currency issuance is purely digital issuance without any new value creation. The value created by people is diluted by currency oversupply. This is the basic contradiction of current human society.

The physical world is governed by the laws of physics and mathematical theorems. No one can break through the limitations of the laws of physics to create matter. In the world of digital information, information can be copied. If we want to express our assets through information, we must enforce them through artificial rules, all of which are based on trust in centralized institutions. We first believe in the government, and we also believe in the banks that manage assets on behalf of the government. The smooth progress of human economic activities is based on trust in them. But this kind of trust is only trust, and it cannot cause substantial restrictions on the organization. Institutions can use rights to falsify, change accounts, and depreciate ordinary people’s assets.

But when Bitcoin was created, everything was changed. Bitcoin is endowed with material uniqueness and non-replicability. Bitcoin is also constrained by mathematical algorithms. No individual or collective can create Bitcoin, nor can it be copied unlimitedly. This is what I am talking about today that Bitcoin has physical reality.

This is my opinion, what about you?

It actually seems contradictory or it violates the "law of nature". It's one of the main reasons we have inflations. People work hard to produce things while someone is secretly/publicly printing lots of money out of thin air to buy up the products and with no intention of replacing them, and then things start increasing in price even beyond the reach of those who produce those things. Hard money like bitcoin solves this problem by limiting coin supply and preventing double spending

Your reasoning is interesting, but  can hardly agree with them. So, you are arguing that the most important basic characteristic of materials is "uniqueness" or "non-reproducibility." People and all living objects in general, in order to ensure their continued existence, must leave offspring, that is, constantly reproduce. Then, according to your theory, we have no signs of materiality. And bitcoin, which is just a mathematical algorithm, has become tangible.
To have materiality, any object must exist in time and space. If the object is not characterized by them, it cannot be recognized as material.

I think your this sentence is very reasonable.To have materiality, any object must exist in time and space. If the object is not characterized by them, it cannot be recognized as material.In the bitcoin network system, we have seen an independent time system, which is separated from the time calculation of our physical world. It is completely independent of bitcoin itself. This is the timestamp server of bitcoin. It constructs an independent time system, not relying on any external system. We determine the causality of one thing's sequence according to the block height of bitcoin. However, when it comes to how bitcoin builds an independent space system, to be honest, I don't have a clear answer now. I'm still thinking and exploring.

He actually means that it has matter properties that make it valuable.  But no matter, it seems not a reality. It's just in his mind.
Bitcoin exists with protocols. It's all there is and we just gave it a value because someone started it with pizza and because there is a property or a characteristic of Bitcoin to be rare which we all know only has 21M as total supply, its value increased. Its how it becomes valuable.

If there are other minerals that we could consider to be valuable and could be used as the money we might actually be using it but then history will once again repeat because humans will always bet and inflate and then once again create banknotes as it had been done in the past.

maybe this is.very interesting with bitcoin as a property that can.be seen.in real terms and also with its.shape and nature, maybe this will also give us.more confidence to start something new in.the crypto world, even though it.is only limited to discourse.thought by many people and it.is not impossible that this will really happen and can.be.seen before our eyes, maybe this is.a very proud thing in.the crypto world

This is just a long assumption, and I didn't find any data from the questionnaire that showed it all. At least you present us some data, for example the results of a survey in the form of a questionnaire that involves some basic questions to arrive at a conclusion method. for example, the expected points, the points achieved, what points can be provided, what factors are needed so that it refers to the decision making, what points and why could it happen, and how should it be?

you are talking about the problem of laws and laws of life. In my opinion, our life is every day a change, people will follow the new and more advanced, why did we in the past have no electricity, no internet, no modern things like now and now? Why was BTC born because it is the progress of people in the past not using traditional money as a place to buy and sell consensus, but the world has changed, the era of technology has to change. Even money changes in a different form.

There is no limit to perfection, besides, people adapt, or they are lazy, therefore they are looking for different ways

Yes, history is always repeating. When human beings discover a new precious metal and feel it is valuable, they may print more banknotes based on it.


Yes, this is just a divergent thinking of me. I have no evidence to prove that my statement is correct. I put forward this point of view for everyone to think about. Maybe in the future there will be more points to support this thinking.



Thank you for your wonderful question. To be honest, I really don't have any data to support this point of view. My thoughts are more philosophical and cannot be explained by scientific research methods and argumentation processes. I think Bitcoin has material properties, first because of its uniqueness, and second because of its non-replicability. And this is the basic property of matter. At the same time, the Bitcoin network created its independent time system, a timestamp server. However, whether it created an independent space system, I have not yet found a reasonable explanation for this. Today, I first put forward this point of view, maybe in the next five to ten years, more friends will come to improve it.

Op I'm not emphasising base on the topic or the content of your text, your articles are nice but you have to amend them because they are large in character I think you have to minimize it so that it will enable people to read and understand, you are good write from my observations towards your other posts, but people really find it very difficult to read a elongated post because some person's get tired on the process reading long article, so i have seen so many of your post with few response, i think the reason is because they are long..

Thank you for your sincere advice, my good friend. I also found this problem. My articles have too many words, which caused many friends to have no patience to finish reading these words. But at this stage, I think it is necessary to fully record my thought process. In each article, I first put forward a point of view, then record the process by which I came to this point of view, why I came to this point of view, and finally give my conclusion. This is a complete thinking process, and every process conforms to a certain logic. I think the process of thinking is the most valuable to everyone. Many of these require philosophical thinking, and we need to pay a certain amount of mental work to digest this knowledge. At the same time, there is no standard answer, because everyone's knowledge background is different, and everyone's answer will be different. However, in the future, when I finish writing this series of articles on in-depth thinking about Bitcoin, I will write some short topics and conduct divergent thinking with you. I believe it will be much easier for everyone to read at that time. . Thank you again for your valuable advice, my good friend.

That may or not be the problem (too many words).  I created a thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5348182.msg57410026#msg57410026) not too long ago in which I described my experience spending bitcoin at a place that had never accepted it before.  A few members commented on the length of the OP, so I'm assuming that might be part of your "problem". 

However, I would suggest that instead of writing less that you break up your text so that it doesn't look like a word-brick.  People are much less likely to read your entire post if you don't have some empty space in between long strings of sentences, and I can tell you that personally I don't even have the patience for posts that are just BWoT's.

In the case of your OP in this thread....even though you used line breaks, it's all over the place in terms of content.  You'd be better off making a concise post that boils down the main points you want to make without all the extraneous stuff.  People don't (and won't) read a stream-of-consciousness type of post that doesn't get to the point within the first paragraph.  You've got a lot of good stuff to say and write well, but this forum isn't for literary enthusiasts; it's for bitcoiners who probably have short attention spans (like me).

Good luck, and I wish you the best.

e=mc^2
Matter and energy can be converted.
A hydrogen atom need not have one electron.
Gold can also be created
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesis_of_precious_metals
Matter can be divided by distinguishable and indistinguishable particles.
A pool of electrons can normally be separated by where they are located in an atom (their shell) or their magnetic properties (their spin).
A pool of neutrons in a nucleus may be indistinguishable from each other.

Bitcoin has both properties. It has replicable and irreplicable information.
The blockchain can be copied and verified. Previous transactions can be verified by an independent observer. It is replicable.
But the keys that sign these transactions are nearly impossible (as far as we know) to replicate, so that is irreplicable.

So, much like the dualities that exist in physics, bitcoin has dualities of replicability for external observers and irreplicability for guessing keys and performing on used transactions.

I'll probably say the usual things, but protecting any coin from volatility in the market is to secure it through the stemcoins in any market movement, this is the best strategy to protect your assets or your coin. There is a rule that the trader went up the market - fix the profit, the market went down - fix the loss.

OP,you should try to win a Nobel prize in Physics or Economy with this theory.Maybe both...
Now why don't you embed Bitcoin in a game theory or try to explain how the universe was created by the power or Bitcoin? ;D I'm being sarcastic...
Bitcoin/blockchain exists as a system,which is based on rules,trust and consensus.Some people are mining BTC,other people are buying BTC,some people spend their BTC,other people are HODLing BTC.
All those people are the main reason why Bitcoin has value.
They trust the system and have accepted the rules of the protocol.
Everything else seems like an over complication of the nature of Bitcoin.
Just go ahead and create an over complicated,hard to understand theory about Bitcoin.I don't mind. ;D

your article is too long, if you make a conclusion maybe I will understand what you mean,
but I will try to comment hopefully it doesn't go out of its direction and purpose

Do you think Bitcoin has matter property?
of course have where the miners must have a PC and the tools so as to produce bitcoin,
and in my opinion material is the selling value of an object where the object has value and bitcoin has value, so bitcoin can be said to be a moving object because the price it has is not the same every minute.
I hope I'm not wrong in responding to your article

Hello Pharmacist, thank you for your kind suggestions. Recently, many friends have made similar suggestions to me. Nowadays, it is difficult for readers to have the patience to read too much text. Most of them will skip it directly when they see the text wall. I am also trying to shorten what I have written as much as possible, but I need them to maintain a complete logic. I write an article now, not only to give a conclusion, but more importantly, to record the process of my thinking and why I came to this conclusion. So there is a lot to write down. In the follow-up, I will try my best to improve my typesetting ability and improve readability.




Hello kaggie, thank you for your wonderful reply. Your interpretation made my text more perfect, thank you. I am a liberal arts student, and I use perceptual language to describe my ideas. In many cases, it is not as rigorous as science students. In the future writing and research process, I will continue to improve the rigor of my writing logic. Let these words withstand more tests.




Haha,davis196 ,thank you for your kind joke. As you said, I have explained Bitcoin with game theory. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5349730.msg57480332#msg57480332) It also interprets Bitcoin from the knowledge of different disciplines. Some theories may seem very complicated, or they may feel ridiculous. But I still think they are valuable. In my opinion, Bitcoin is definitely not just a technology, or a currency. He is a new kind of human civilization. I have always interpreted Bitcoin from the perspective of human civilization. This involves knowledge of different disciplines. Maybe my interpretation is not correct, but I am brave enough to write them out, so that more friends who are really interested in Bitcoin can participate in the discussion. I think this is valuable for humans' deep understanding of Bitcoin.


Hello, marilynmanson21, thank you for your wonderful answer. You are one of the few who can fully understand my article. Your answer is more concise than mine, and you fully understand what I want to express. I am really very happy. The reason why I used such a long text to explain the conclusion I came to is because most people have difficulty really understanding what I want to describe. So I must write down the process of how to reach this conclusion. So that more friends can think deeply. Through your answers, we can find that the conclusion is the same, but the method of explanation can be diversified. Thank you again, my good friend.

As for me, anything can be a matter even those things that are just existing in our heads. Of course, the scientific definition can be different and really specific which I have to be honest can be a boring stuff to me. matter is not limited to things that we can see and touch. Come to think of it, things invented by men throughout time actually started with ideas in the heads of their inventors. Same thing with Bitcoin.

Yes, this also involves the origin of the universe. Is our world created by consciousness or is it made of matter? Are we a real material world? Or is it a world constructed by consciousness? This is the ultimate torture about philosophy.

Just an analogy with the Internet. You can't see a connection that connects people from all over the world. but you can feel the impact and right now it seems like a lot of things will die without the internet. so are cryptocurrencies. it was a digital revolution like the internet in the 90's but now its impact is huge. that's what I believe will also happen in bitcoin in the future.

Yes, more and more people are feeling the physical reality of Bitcoin. Although Bitcoin is an encrypted digital currency, it has certain physical properties. Although this is difficult to understand, more and more people are realizing it. So we often say that Bitcoin needs to be mined through mining like gold. To some extent, it can be said that it is a mineral of the digital world.

Yeah I think so, we report it to police as stolen property and in a way it's also a currency so yeah, I think it's a matter property. Plus when you get married, you combine all you own with your betrothed like how you combine both of your money so you can easily manage the spending together as husband and wife and if there's some separation, I think the court will consider bitcoin as a money meaning that it's going to be split between you two.

Yes, most of us will only believe what he sees. But there are still some people who will make some judgments about the future. Infer some things that will happen in the future. We not only need to understand the history of Bitcoin, the present of Bitcoin, and more importantly, we must predict the future of Bitcoin. Because we have to prepare for the future based on these predictions. Bitcoin will change our world faster and faster.