Bitcoin Forum

Bloomberg news:

China banning bitcoin, again:


Filippone QuickTake:

• China banning bitcoin, again
• The less Bitcoin has to do with China, the better
• When something is useful and enacting freedom, immediately a dictatorial government will try to stop it
• This is going to be an historic error for China, as it was banning bitcoin mining
• If bitcoin wants to be the best and hardes Store of Value in history of mankind, then it has to withstand this kind of attacks
• Futures are not to blame here, as today expiry has already happened.

Apparently it is old news:

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/16/blobb8c2157a374d8ec0.png
https://twitter.com/bigmagicdao/status/1441328777393426433

Announced on Sep 15th and posted online today.

It looks like an addition was made to the original (Sep 3) part.
The addition is:

---

I don't see this as a good reason for the dump. It's more like somebody released the FUD dogs because he got scared that Twitter moves from yesterday have the potential to make the price explode during the week-end.

Glad to see this clarification so that all holders assumptions will be cleared up and they will not take those fuds they try to spread right now, also this is reminder that we shouldn't get panic easily and verify the information spreading so that this will not cost us any amount for creating bad decisions towards that news. This also shows that whales are desperate to accumulate at more cheaper price so its good to kill their acts and make them feel that this time they will not succeed on what they are planning to do.

This all reminds me on those funny south park cartoon editing for Chinese ban of Bitcoin, but it is nothing more than standard weekend price manipulation.
Good thing about this is that power of Chinese fud is getting weaker and weaker every time, until the time when it will die totally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3zlqHdmPQs

It's from different institutions, that was a notice sent from the PBOC and this one is from China Securities Regulatory Commission to them , I don't know much about the steps laws and regulations have to pass in order to become enforceable in China but I think there is still a step since it's a law and it involves penalties and punishments within the justice system it must be approved by either the NPC or the State Council, neither one is either addressed or mentioned in both papers.

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/4QWsmCyksuDGQO8eKiixwA
http://www.pbc.gov.cn/goutongjiaoliu/113456/113469/4348521/index.html

That said we might see another wave of letters and yet no real enforcement in real life, as usual.

In all fairness, I am a little bit less prone to dismiss this news as FUD.
Last time, when we read about China banning bitcoin mining, we were surprised when we discovered the news was actually true.
This time it might be the same thing.
Of course, this is going to be an epochal error for China, and also of course the blip in the price is absolutely irrelevant in the greater scheme of things.

It's an official document, there is nothing uncertain about it.
The uncertainty is if they will ever enforce it, that's where the doubts might be  ;D


About this, I think there are major differences between the mining ban and the cryptocurrency trading ban.

The ban on financial activities, usage etc, etc is understandable if we bring the digital yuan and the total control the CCP wants in the picture.
The mining ban I think was caused by different factors.

We had a mining accident back in April in Xinjiang, that caused a spiraling effect on coal production, then powerplants shut down and affected energy usage in all the region. Faced with that threat and combined with the economical war with Australia that has seen a  coal import ban  (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-column-russell-coal-china-idUSKBN2EZ0DB) which has sent prices for coal skyrocketing and threatening other industries (https://www.argusmedia.com/en/news/2216785-chinas-australian-coal-ban-distorts-prices) might have forced them to cut any non-essential industry or one that can be used as a weapon (like the steel one) from the power grid.

So this mining ban might not be directly targeted at crypto, unlike the trading one.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-23/china-s-power-cuts-widen-amid-shortages-and-climate-push


So this notice might be just the product of a far more complex situation, where different measures that have not really been aimed at cryptos in general, all ended up hitting bitcoin and altcoins. Don't know how to react to this, the bright side might be that we finally see crypto becoming a thing of the global economy, with both good and bad implications coming with it.

Also what more funnier here is our local media posted the fud on their social media channel without verifying the news, provably it could add up the fire but I'm sure people will get used to this news since there is clarification circulating so maybe we can expect that the dump happening right now is for short time only.

https://i.imgur.com/rRqOnoi.png



Hopefully the circulating post about another old Chinese fuds will clear out the minds of those people who get easily wiped by manipulators.

China banning bitcoin is basically old news. They've been doing this for years now, and there will come a time wherein the world will no longer react on what's happening in that country when it comes to cryptocurrencies. Sure this may well be another FUD, but PBOC has been firm on their stance for years re: bitcoin and crypto. It's just that they are not enforcing what they are saying, and all of these statements exist only as statements for the government doesn't really do anything to prevent transactions or the mining activities from happening in the country.

The market's obvious negative influence on bad news, I just feel that they have a contradiction in their actions. Perhaps in the near future we will receive some more bad news from them, another view of this FUD of China I think it is a collection move :) , I personally still have take a closer look at the present that the market is moving in a positive direction and news like this only adds to the challenge of confidence for many, and don't be too alarmed by these things.

Not too much to fear, if we look at the price:

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blob9d3137a1b5d4720e.jpeg
https://twitter.com/geenty/status/1441403448562388994?s=20

Even if it's true, it will be a problem for China, not for bitcoin, or for bitcoiners, even the Chinese ones.

This appears to fit everything I said over the past 2 years about left wing politics being anti crypto.

With the demographic most likely to support bitcoin and cryptocurrencies being the political right.

I would be curious to know if the USSR had the same mentality of restricting innovation and progress that china does now. And whether that regressive mentality factored in to the USSR's economic implosion. They say history sometimes repeats itself, due to people being determined to never learn from it. Might it be accurate to say that china is USSR 2.0 and the conflict between it and the rest of the world resembles something like a sequel to the cold war?

Unfortunately, this announcement comes hot on the heels of south korea announcing tougher regulation and tax hikes on crypto. We need good news in the cryptosphere to negate the bad news.

old news yet still affects the market even when china couldn't control crypto. 

don't you think the chinese had enjoyed this banning of cryptocurrency all the time, it makes them look very important to the industry when they could make users panic sell. such a bit loss from the cap every time they do this.

Right after someday they are doing new drama all county when trying to accept it this time China trying to ban everything I cant understand this matter I have to study this subject.

Can we have one thread solely dedicated to keeping a count of China Banning bitcoin, I think it's maybe the 7th or 8th time maybe? I would really appreciate it if someone takes the honour and make a thread counting this. I would say this was just another news for Whales to accumulate even more BTC at this price because I have seen in the past that China banning BTC has led to many major pumps in the market within a few days. Bitcoin drops are really a normal thing and everyone now is used to such kinds of drops in the market, Bitcoin has been in the bearish mode for the last 10 days when this FUD wasn't even in the News, if you are blaming China is the reason for the drop then I think bicoin fell directly from 52k to 42k only because of China because Insiders would already have this news and would have sold their holdings.

You are welcome:

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blob248f2131bb893b73.jpeg (https://twitter.com/DocumentingBTC/status/1441427718009016325?s=20)

https://twitter.com/DocumentingBTC/status/1441427718009016325?s=20

It probably does not hurt to have another thread on this ongoing China ban bitcoin dynamic.


Bitcoin gives no shits whether china ban bitcoin or not.... so I am a little worried about your statement of a preference in this matter, and surely we see that china seems to be having quite a few struggles in regards to how to deal with bitcoin.

Years back there may have been many uncertainties in regards to how much governments might be able to stifle bitcoin and its innovations, and surely the chinese government officials are not dummies, and surely that have all kinds of various smart technical and governmental people from whom they can attempt to draw knowledge, but still we witness them shooting themselves in the foot over and over and over, and they still conclude that they are right about this, and they just keep fighting bitcoin in very weird and seemingly draconian ways that seems to cause so many contradictions, including that even their citizens are confused as fuck about what they can do or not do and there remains a lot of lacking of harmony, even though it is quite likely that the Chinese officials are striving to achieve some kind of harmony that is not really possible to achieve with what seems to be their attempts to beat bitcoin down and have wars with bitcoin (and surely shitcoins too.. and I personally am not having as many problems with some of the potential needs to engage in some wars with some of the scamming smoke and mirror bullshit that goes on in some of the shitcoin space)...

I guess my overall point is that china is not getting rid of bitcoin and bitcoin is not getting rid of china, so it seems quasi-nonsensical to be hoping that bitcoin can just move on without china.. because it is not going to happen, even if china may well be causing their lil selfies to be having lesser of a role than what they otherwise would have been able to have if they had figured out some ways in which they might have been able to take some lesser adversarial approaches in their dealing with bitcoin, but hey I am no fucking chinese official, so of course, they have rights to attempt to accomplish objectives that they believe are best  for their own citizenry even though from an outside perspective it seems that they are contributing (or exacerbating) some of the problems that they purportedly are striving to fix.. not that outsiders are going to completely understand their total agenda, even if we might have some clues and try to study into the matter more, to the extent that it matters in terms of our ongoing interactions with china whether it is through bitcoin or other ways... whether we are wanting to travel their, deal with their citizens or even to do business with their citizens, and if they are currently claiming that outsiders cannot do business with Chinese citizens in bitcoin, some of that just seems as a lot of fucking overreaching and maybe going to bite them in the ass in terms of neither really being able to enforce it or having to result in selective enforcement.. which surely many governments engage in those kinds of practices too, especially when they create or maintain laws that are seeming to be greatly out of sync with what people are doing or what people want to do.


I don't disagree with some of your overall points Hydrogen, except to the extent that you are striving to frame these matters in left/right frameworks or commie/capitalism bullshit.

Sure, there are a lot of anti-government folks in bitcoin, and there are people who have their very skewed views of what is too much government or what kinds of areas are o.k. for government intervention and whatnot, and in the end, bitcoin gives no shits... even while in the end, if there are various ways that governments are going to continue to exist (and of course they are), some governments are going to be able to more harmonize themselves with bitcoin and some of the sound money incentives of bitcoin, and some governments are going to have difficulties adapting.  It is going to take a decently long time for the various incentive systems to play themselves out, and perhaps even a couple of generations, even though bitcoin is having increasingly strong impacts, even now.  So, for sure, we know that some governments are panicking in regards to what to do about bitcoin and how to deal with it and to figure out if there are some balances that can be reached in terms of trying to deal with the actual dynamics of bitcoin including even basic shit like recognizing the difference between bitcoin and shitcoins and also trying to stay up-to-date with what is happening in bitcoin..

We do know that information spread is way more global, but also we have physical bodies too, so  the extent to which migration is going to happen into more friendly bitcoin jurisdictions is going to continue to be a phenomena that goes all over the place, including that even governments change who is in charge and also who is able to influence government policy directions change too.. I would not even assert that you are completely wrong in terms of attempting to frame some governments trying to be way more involved in seemingly social benefits areas, and they might end up having struggles in dealing with bitcoin differently than governments who might be less inclined towards providing social benefits, but I doubt that it is helpful to just lump governments into socialist or capitalists and try to presume from there in terms of if there might be more room for their being friendly rather than hostile to bitcoin.

Oh man, CCP has done it (again).
So crypto transaction is illegal, and now what? They will arrest people if they transact using crypto?
The level of dictatorship there is unbelievable.

The more I read the news, the more I think this is price manipulation just to dump the market. The timing and the frequency are fishy.

Who the heck are the PBOC? Also, I stopped caring about what the Chinese government thinks about BTC and the crypto world ever since they made it clear that they want nothing to do with BTC a long time back.

History has proven the fact that no country(No matter how big it is) can successfully stop BTC or the crypto marker which is why this type of news is worthless and meaningless in my opinion.

I strongly believe that BTC will continue marching forward giving more and more power back to the people as time passes.

The never ending China ban at it again, and what is even annoying is the way the market is reacting to the whole news, I mean people have lost count of the number of China ban on crypto out there, China are determine to ruin the market with bad news anytime things are about to get into action, anyways, it won't be forever, a time will come when no one will pay attention to them any more.

I'm a bit hesitant when it comes to China with their enforcement of their laws.

It's true China can't do anything to stop someone from sending a crypto transaction, but this is also a country that will throw you in jail if you criticize the government, so enforcement can occur on a whim if they feel the need that they're losing the crypto battle and want to prop up CNY. Give it enough time and they'll try to start enforcement, and we'll see if they end up being successful or not.

People are overlooking the other big piece of news coming out of China now - the collapse of the biggest property company within China that has huge debts. Either one of two things is happening, or possibly a combination of both. Banning bitcoin puts a lot of news out there to distract from this massive company collapse that could ripple through the whole economy and send them into a recession. Secondly, a lot of people within authoritarian regimes are always looking to keep their money out of the hands of the central government that might confiscate it if they fall out of line or they're looking for convenient scapegoats at any time. This is an attempt to stop money fleeing the country in the simplest terms.

Same old same old, China banning Bitcoin. This sums it up :D


https://i.postimg.cc/wxGd5Y4D/btc.jpg


I remember back in old days ( for me that's 2013-2014) I used to worry about news like that, but now I caae t the point where I don't care about short term stuff like that as I am into this for a long run anyway.

Once China sees that bitcoin/crypto is in great condition without them, I think, they will change their mind again. It has proven even without them, bitcoin will survive and other entities or countries are very much open arms with bitcoin. Maybe, it is better that China will not participate anymore in this market but this is unfortunate for all bitcoin miners in China. I hope they already find their new place to conduct their business.

Again why is china having problem with bitcon they only thing China don't know is that they don't know the only thing they can do now is only to adopt bitcoin even if they continue to ban bitcoin, Bitcoin is really growing massively which I believe very soon China news won't even have any effect on bitcoin price again. I believe China just there currency to be the best and they don't want any currency that will beat there own that's why they are trying to kill bitcoin.

China They have been doing this for years now and there will come a time when the world will no longer react to what is happening in that country when it comes to cryptocurrencies. Sure this could be another FUD, but the PBOC has been steadfast in their stance for years: bitcoin and crypto. I can say that this is just another news for Whale to accumulate even more BTC at this price as I have previously seen China ban BTC which led to many massive pumps in the market within a few days. . Bitcoin drops are indeed a normal thing and people are now used to these kinds of drops in the market. I don't care and am not surprised about these moves by China anymore.

This isn't really unique to bitcoin.  The ccp is exerting increasing levels of control over all aspects of chinese society.  China has always been hostile to foreign tech companies operating in the country, but recently they've started harshly restricting even chinese-based tech companies and basically anything that could exert influence over the society and sap loyalty from the party, including video game makers, tv and movie studios companies and others.  At the core of the moves are promoting ultra-nationalist tendencies as china gears up to challenge the US globally.  With the implementation of the digital yuan, bitcoin is just another element that threatens the party's power because they can't control it.  But unlike the maximalists on these boards that claim it's censorship proof and the government can't stop it, I say just watch how few people are going to be out of compliance now that it's fully illegal.  

For sure, it will be an important testbed for everyone of us looking at China. How this story will evolve and the resilience of bitcoin there will be of utter importance.

Yes, you say, this news will certainly test the mentality of investors and cryto users in this world.
But this is a big challenge for the future development of cryptocurrencies.
As happened in 2018 when a lot of negative news about crypto was mainly in the case of hacking.
But we can see that cryptocurrencies are still growing and developing well to this day.

Thanks for your fast clarification, that makes people not assuming China tries another way to shake Bitcoin.
Anyway, I am curious why we saw some bad news about China banning crypto currently. I suspect a group of people take advantage of this situation, they use bad news from China to push people selling their Bitcoin at a cheap price. Look at the market condition and crypto price moves lately, seems a bit strange!!

Same old shit want to spread by those manipulators and only weak hands will gonna buy that shit and  look what happen unto those people who believe easily on unverified fuds spreading for sure they lose their money for dumping yesterday or even last few days. People need to learn to verify what information they are reading and also they need to strengthened there balls to hold if there's something like this since if they keep dumping when there's a fud came for sure they cannot gain from this.

Also time to accumulate once we see the dip almost end since that is the time whales accumulate.

We might probably gonna have to face this news(again) in the future.

This news will keep on popping every now and then that makes me feel like I'm immune to their BS. It makes me think that most whales are living in China because they are known to making such fud news based on what I've noticed. And anyone who fall for their traps would feel sorry because they suddenly lost what they were supposed to be holding instead.

Well, we gotta ride this fud and buy the dip since only weak hands would fall for their traps.

I don't know what you are talking about when you refer to the price of crypto - hardly makes any sense to employ such a vague reference in terms of talking about bitcoin prices.  If you are trying to analyze some kind of amorphous concept such as crypto, then of course, you are going to be able to find all kinds of strange stuff with such a meaningless conceptualization.

Surely, you must be wanting to refer to some phenomenon beyond bitcoin when you use the term crypto, but it does not mean anything when you try to lump a bunch of bullshit together and then somehow also tie it to bitcoin, and ultimately whatever you are talking about is vague when you use such term and you think about price performance in such a way, unless you specifically are talking about the price of bitcoin.. and if you are specifically talking about bitcoin, then focus on what is going on with bitcoin and use the word bitcoin to describe what you are talking about instead of using a vague nonsensical term.   

Regarding the price of bitcoin, it's recent performance does not seem strange at all to me.,. or at least, hardly at all.  Every 4-year price cycle that we have had so far, there have been various kinds of attempts to keep BTC's price down during the UPpity part of the cycle - and we seem to be in the midst of such UPpity part right now as I type this post, so even if there are various attempts to stop the Up portion from taking place or to stop it earlier than it would otherwise be going up, there is no real sign, at least not so far, that such efforts to stop the UP movement and up pressures early is successful or that such efforts are going to be successful.

Even if we are attempting to frame BTC's price movements in reference to earlier four year cycles, we should not absolutely expect that it's price movements are going to exactly mirror any of the earlier cycles, even though perhaps in the long term when we are looking back, we are largely going to be able to overlay the cycles and find them to be eerily similar even if while we are going through with them, we can also feel a lot of differences that seem to be going on, while caught up in the midst of the cycle.

Sure, anything can happen in terms of stopping the UP portion of the cycle from happening, but it seems way to early to write it off such up portion from happening.

In other words, what would you describe as strange exactly in terms of what is going on with bitcoin's price, bhooscream?  Anyone else believe that there is something strange that is going on with bitcoin's price movements and price dynamics, currently?  if so, please describe what is strange, exactly?  It's not like we have any guarantees that BTC prices are going UP from here, and where we are at is pretty damned bullish from my point of view, so if you believe it is strange, explain what is the strangeness, exactly?

China is the most manipulated economy in the world and what happened to Evergrande is just the tip of the iceberg. The Chinese economy managed to attain so much growth in recent times because the investors had no option to go for anything other than the overpriced assets that were locally available. The average P/E ratios for Chinese stocks stand at 40-50, compared to 10-12 in the other markets. Real estate prices make no sense and a lot people invested in them since they had no other option. I won't be surprised if the Chinese economy undergo a massive correction sometime in the next 1-2 years. The ban on BTC is not going to help.

The banning of crypto is in direct preparation for the rollout of the digital yuan. The Chinese government wants the people of china to have no alternative to that of the centralized ledger. I wouldn't be surprised if we see similar moves in other countries as their CBDCs near completion.

TLDR: Governments are severely afraid of the ability for citizens to retain their own assets in a decentralized way

Sure, whenever a law is enacted you can always question whether the government is going to enforce it or not....but how many people are going to be willing to take the chance?  I guess to answer my own question, a lot of it would depend on what the penalties are for breaking the law.  Has China made any sort of statement as to what they're going to do with people who continue to own/trade crypto?

They didn't actually outright ban crypto transactions before, did they?  I remember when they banned mining (and ICOs too if I'm not mistaken), but this is new and much more restrictive than any laws they'd previously passed AFAIK. 

And to those saying too bad, so sad to China and this law: just wait until your country passes a similar law.  All it would take is the political will to do so and the stroke of a pen.  Plus this is a big blow to bitcoin; China isn't exactly a small country, and if their citizens can't use crypto that eliminates a lot of bitcoin users.

The USSR clearly restricted progress: Citizens could buy a car but had to save the money beforehand and there was a waiting list that ranged from 4 to 10 years (https://www.rbth.com/history/331220-soviet-private-cars): "There were many automotive plants in the USSR, but getting a car was not just a matter of having the money. Some people even believe production was deliberately limited for fear that car ownership would give the Soviet people too much freedom."

there was a famous Reagan joke  (https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1231624232037240834?lang=en)on the subject: "One of Reagan’s best Jokes. Soviet apparatchik: OK you can have a new car. Pay for it now and you can collect it in 10 years from today. Russian asks: Morning or afternoon. Soviet: why would that matter. Russian: the plumber is coming in the morning." (10 years from now, lol)


Yes, I think history is being repeated by the Chinese with respect to Bitcoin, making the same mistake they made holding a silver standard instead of moving to the gold standard:

How the silver standard wrecked Chinas economy. (https://www.livemint.com/Opinion/rCrmpVooFkYuoAznk8VCVI/How-the-silver-standard-wrecked-Chinas-economy.html)


We can leave the frame aside, but the Bitcoin at least theoretically, fits better with an Austrian School theory of economics (capitalist), than with a Keynesian economic theory (more socialist-left), let alone a Marxist one, with which it does not fit at all.

Another thing is that nowadays we have politicians everywhere who do not follow theories so much as what they believe will give them more votes.


Yes, while I think the framework that Hydrogen puts forward is correct, I also don't think it's a hard-and-fast division that we're going to see:

1) Left-wing governments: ban bitcoin.
2) Right wing governments: embrace bitcoin.

There will be a lot of grey areas and I don't think he puts it that way either, he talks about what is most likely.

All of Bitcoin bulls think that China banning Bitcoin must be about it being scared of the financial freedom or just trying to FUD to buy low (which is really just a meme imo, a nation state wouldn't consciously behave this way).

There is one more aspect to this. China seems to have lost it with Bitcoin because the utility it provides as censorship-resistant money is something they see as enemy action. They tried controlling it but there is too much support from rest of the world. Their interest in Blockchain per se extend a lot to shitcoins like EOS, NEO etc. At one point, I believe they had a technology ranking for cryptocurrencies on which EOS was at the top. (Natuarlly because its a centralized shitcoin with 21 delegators, half of which are from China. Infact the machinations of the Chinese cartels to maximize their control over EOS is one of the reasons that it turned into such a burning wreck).

Most Chinese communites are neck deep in shitcoinery. Every memecoin and centralized scam coin generally has a huge chinese community. There people are probably just turning all of those earning straight to Bitcoin. Its not that China doesn't want their people to continue to dabble into shitcoins. They infact made the first official one with their CBDC Yuan. They love the fact that on a centralized blockchain, they can finally monitor everything.

The average Chinese though, are smart enough to continue to hold BTC. This is what annoys the CCP and is behind their persistent Bitcoin FUD. They just want them to become blockchain zombies but not have access to the only truly decentralized crypto. Good Luck CCP..lol..

China’s boycott of Bitcoin is already known. Is there any news next? This news does have an impact on the cryptocurrency market, and it will also cause some cryptocurrency enthusiasts to abandon Bitcoin.

This is just a recycle news, over and over again. Every year china announces they banning bitcoin and this is sickening to hear every year and yet they just fudding it just to buy low, in my opinion. Paper hands will always the first to sell and in the end they the one to cry first as well.  :D Don't fall for it guys, they just want to buy your bitcoin at dip. So hold strong and believe me bitcoin will soar high up again.

So once again chinese banning bitcoin like they are doing from several years? This will have same impact on bitcoin and it's "The Holders don't care" as prices are intended to rise over after short dips china plans in order to create FUD and maybe accumulate more at dips themselves.The china banned mining and hashrate of 65% got diversified and now conditions are normal again so what impact did china leave on prices? You can't stop it with such ridiculous bans and play dirty games in which they will end up losing.

Apparently, diminishing returns on shorting China bans:

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blobe4a6a8daf57d9c06.jpeg (https://twitter.com/1337_pete/status/1441374778544115728?s=20)
https://twitter.com/1337_pete/status/1441374778544115728?s=20

Detail of the image.

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blob4417c978f85dbc18.jpeg (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FADKmAwUUAsDMvx?format=jpg&name=large)

It does not matter if china bans or unbans the crypto because we have learnt one important thing since fe years! :- It does not affect bitcoin/crypto space at all. What will happen max to max? Bitcoin and rest of the crypto will crash because Chinese will be selling their assets so that they save themselves from Dictatorial Government! So this will go on lets say for few months to a year so that all the selling orders will be fulfilled by rest of the world.

Then what? Everyone will forget it, bitcoin will be on flat sale! Billionaires from the globe will jump in, after couple of years halving will occur and this will bring more and more value to bitcoin.

We will see glorious day where BTC will be equal to triple than what it is today! We will thank China on that day for banning it.  ;)

That's maybe new and surprising to some people but actually, we all know what China is doing and if you want to get more information about their reactions you will need to learn about economic communism, China is trying to stay against bitcoin and they have some reason for it, sometimes they say Bitcoin is invaluable, sometimes they say that's consuming too much energy and sometimes they say bitcoin is usually for money laundry and none cares about their thoughts, banning crypto-related transactions from China will only affect the market emotionally and temporary nothing changes for the holders.
 

Well, someone asked why the government made illegal every Bitcoin transaction or activity, instead of the holding of the orange coin.

Would anyone take a wild guess?
Look here: Chinese government is holding bitcoins

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blobe77918d0e15a6b42.jpeg
https://www.kevinrooke.com/bitcoin

Chinese Government made themselves hodler by law!


Regarding the US government, those are, I think, seized Bitcoins that will be sold via public auction (a wonderful way of buying "clean" BTC's, usually at a premium to market price).

Other governments are missing, at least Bulgaria and, of course, El Salvador.

EDIT:
Apparently (no full confirmation) China sold their BTC in 2020.

@fillippone, as for Bulgaria and China, see posts 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5360967.msg57995536#msg57995536) and 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5360967.msg58022075#msg58022075). Bulgaria sold the seized BTC in early 2018, and China reportedly during 2020.

---

It is not very logical to compare China in political terms with the rest of the world, especially with Western democracies. It is true that politics has the power to change everything with the stroke of a pen, but it is also true that the people of China do not protest out of fear, while people in other parts of the world are much more willing to fight for what they believe.

China has had a ban on crypto trading for years, and I don't see that affecting the price of Bitcoin - of course, they used every possible way to keep it in the background, but most Chinese in China stopped trading Bitcoin a few years ago.

Just clicked on the "Source" button (https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/85873/china-seize-billion-cryptos-from-plustoken-crackdown),
It is said that the 194,775BTC are one of several cryptocurrencies seized by Chinese court from the PlusToken (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlusToken) Ponzi scheme last year, totaling over 4 billion USD (at that time).

Just hope that the Chinese government's opposition to bitcoin is realized by sending those bitcoins to the burn address. ;D

Not that I know and I did a lot of searches about this and they only tell the same thing, it's illegal, in involves punishment but we don't know how bad those will be and this will be the deciding factor.

China has been "banning" crypto-related stuff from exchanges to ICOs for a long time but has anyone seen anything that showed they are truly committed to it? Usually, when the CCP wants to send a message it does so in force, to date we haven't seen anything like that, no news no public shaming no police arrests, that's why usage has continued there, it's like VPN usage, as long as you don't piss the government you can use it freely, cross the line and suddenly the entire world forgets about you.

We will see in the next week what's their attitude is, I guess either the pools all the mining gear manufacturers will be the first to launch a signal if things go bad, they're the most exposed, known names, locations, finances. If we also have news with mining gear squashed down and people in handcuffs put into army trucks making the headlines then they are serious and you can erase China from the crypto map. If nothing happens, well, things will go on as they have for the last years.

Anyhow, I guess we will have a breather till worse things might happen, they have a ton of problems on their plate, crypto is ignorable at this point.

Thank you, duly noted.  Updated the relevant post about China. Now I am going to  complain with my source about Bulgarian Bitcoin (Giacomo Zucco on the Italian bitcoin Telegram chat...)

Honestly, I don't look at the original source of the news from the China government. I just looked from ur thread, and the local news of my country just posted the news yesterday. So, I don't know this is old news or not, but I have some views about this condition. The China government has been shocked by the news of Evergrande which affected the stability of the country financially and I looked at the news, the government intervene the bank sector with bailout 18,6 Billion USD. I don't know exactly whether this news related with the banning or not, but I guess that this is just prevention of the government to keep their economy keep stable with this condition. Because after Evergrande case, their economic wasn't fine enough. Because based on their opinion that Bitcoin can create a bubble so they have to be strict to ban the crypto.

Old news or not, banning bitcoin now is a false move for any country. On the other hand, those countries that are now adopting bitcoin are the ones that has all but to gain.

Think about it - is tomorrow a country bans Gold, (mining, holding, trading ...) what will happen - that country will lose gold and other countries will benefit. The same thing is happening to China and their loss is the profit for the rest of the world.

I believe that China's ban on mining, ICO, and crypto trading has made demand and trading volume and market cap decline. China is known as a country that is a bit stricter in law enforcement, so I don't think many people would dare to break the law if the prohibition law was enforced. What makes me wonder is why and why they should do it when they are one of the countries that has good technology in all sectors. They seem too paranoid and think bitcoin and traded altcoin can destabilize their country's economy. But I can assure you of one thing, they have a hidden desire with this ban and may not have been revealed.

Exactly, China has banned bitcoin several times, but bitcoin has increased even over and over and reach all-time-high as usual. I read a news about how cryptocurrencies has recovered from China FUD 19 times including today which I do not even yet seen significant.

Crypto has recovered from China's FUD over a dozen times in the last 12 years (https://cointelegraph.com/news/crypto-has-recovered-from-china-s-fud-nearly-two-dozen-times-in-the-last-12-years)

The last China FUD during the bitcoin and other crypto mining crackdown resulted to bitcoin price falling from $45000 to $30000, the price drop was so significant, but bitcoin has only falled just 5% after this recent FUD as a result of PBoC making bitcoin illegal for its citizens. The fact still remain that bitcoin does not depend on China, crypto did not even falled as many people will be expecting this time around.

FUD issued by China, in the future it will not work anymore

China is by far the most "dislike" country with bitcoin. every year they issue a statement to destroy bitcoin, the biggest one is when they ban all mining activities in their country

let's keep calm and hold by ignoring all the FUD spread by China and even other big countries

You have a kind of funny way, The Pharmacist, of frequently attempting to view the bearish side of any kind of news and then taking it to an extreme... same was true in the microstrategies thread in which you were ready, willing and able to point out negative aspects (or potential negative aspects) of what should have been positive news.

Sure, in the case of China bans bitcoin again, it is not exactly positive news, but it is way the hell less negative and dire as you are making it out to be.  In some sense, you seem to be underestimating some of the various challenges that bitcoin presents to various governments and status quo institutions that are trying to deal with this ever growing and pervasive phenomenon (and force for good a lot of us probitcoin folks - some call bitcoin maximalists -  would argue). 

Yes, let's see how effective China is going to be in this regard and let's see if they can follow through.. Let's also see if some countries will attempt to take similar stances and see how they do.  And, let's see if some countries take an opposite stance and how they fair. 

I think part of my point remains that the defeat of bitcoin is not as obvious as you seem to be making it out to be, and it really presents a kind of formidable challenge in which it is seeming more and more likely to prevail, even if some countries and status quo financial institutions go down some hardball aggressive battling tactics.. and probably some of those countries and financial institutions who are playing hardball against bitcoin, they are likely either going to have to lighten up or perhaps perish and become irrelevant.  Sure, you can spin the matter however you like including appropriating your investment  of time and money into bitcoin however you want including if you aggressively invest into bitcoin, passively invest or choose some practice to attempt to work against bitcoin (or perhaps act as if you are playing devil's advocate, which likely shows that you are failing/refusing to actually understand some aspect of the power of where bitcoin is already at - even if bitcoin is still likely going to continue to have some challenges along the way).

I am sure, you understand what I mean. What I am talking about is the situation that Bitcoin price hard to pass $50k lately. It has tried several times to maintain above $50k, but unfortunately always failed. One of the reasons is many FUDs spreading lately after we heard about China banned Bitcoin mining in the country. Then, we see the Bitcoin price move was mostly like dumped hardly in the last few weeks. It seems triggered by many FUDs spreading around us lately. However, it is only my personal view, sorry if it is not the same as you think, sir.

Price volatility makes bitcoin healthy, the holders take profit and the people are waiting already to invest at low price. The recent price fall was not as a result of FUD but investors taking profit was more linked to it when bitcoin price plummeted from $52700, the recent FUD effect is not significant at all as this is even weekend.

All-time-high is certain.

When bitcoin increased to as much as $20000 in 2017, it later decreased to less than $10000 many times, but what is certain is that the price will certainly increase and reach all-time-high.

The $50000 you are commenting about today that bitcoin is struggling to reach will be a price bitcoin will never again fall or decreased to at a time in the future.

China is just trying to make it as illegal as it gets for crypto users in their nation, but they do not realize that they are hurting themselves :D. I am very very glad that a huge dictatorship in the world is now losing a ton of money to other nations. People all around the world are making money hand over fist but at the end of the day Chinese people will not be that and since we know that Chinese people do not have anything proper and it is owned by the CCP then it means that we are doing fine for now with them not making any profit at all.

It is not something simple, it takes time but at the end of the day if we could just make them weaker and poor again, it would destroy the power CCP has.

China has recently begun to get carried away with excessive zeal by the state's interference in the issues of economic functioning, and the prohibitions about cryptocurrencies quite fit into this paradigm. It is quite strange to hear about a country with one billion with a third of the population and the second largest economy in the world, which is so much afraid of the destructive influence of cryptocurrencies that it practically excludes its part of the population from this process. I think that these measures, as well as restrictions on listing on foreign exchanges for its companies, indicate that China is trying to isolate its economy from the world economy a little, which in the future may be a big mistake, despite all the self-sufficiency of the Chinese economy.

If you understand how manipulated the Chinese economy is, you will easily find out the reasons for this fear from the Chinese regime. The Chinese economy is like an inflated bubble, which can burst even at the slightest trigger. Almost every sector is manipulated, including stock market and real estate. Ordinary citizens have no other choice, but to pump their savings in to these assets. They don't have any other alternative available. Cryptocurrency represents an "alternative" and that is why the regime is so hostile towards it.

In a centralized country like China, today's rich may become tomorrow's prisoners. There is no free country. Bitcoin will not have a good future.

You're right, that's why china is a very big country because they have to make sure everything their people do has advantages to their country which is very nice for a country but it's very bad for the humanity freedom.
Although they could owning bitcoin without their government permission, but disallowance to crypto will bring bad impact to if all countries doing the same and make cryptocurrency will less valuable in the future.
Some people said it's just a FUD but as long we know, china has their own digital currency e-yuan and maybe they make sure their people are investing on thir own currency instead of cryptocurrency

Myself too have similar opinion about China's plan of getting isolated from the world economy. Already there is big war going on between USA and China and now this is coming to the light through different forms of attack. In yesterday's UN committee meeting more warnings were made against China and Pakistan for supporting terrorism.

Whenever PBOC makes a decision against cryptocurrency usage, there is price pumping after some crash. Now once again PBOC have made some decisions. Hope to see a price pumping soon.

The actions of the Chinese government will definitely affect the fluctuation of market prices. The number of users in China is really amazing. For example, OTC merchants must be moving bricks yesterday. Sometimes I wonder if they have used the panic news to buy low-cost chips, because I know that the Chinese government confiscated a large number of encrypted digital currencies last year, including all kinds of altcoins.

Sure both you and I might be quibbling a wee bit too much in terms of proclaiming that we do not want to get too much into any kind of exact framework, but still end up kind of falling into one framework or another or prioritizing one framework over another.. and maybe that it is wee bit what I was hoping to avoid, even though I am likely NOT even innocent of it myself.

Another point that I was attempting to make revolves around some proclamations that even with bitcoin we are neither going to get rid of government completely nor be able to really proclaim in advance regarding various balances that might be struck in terms of bitcoin becoming more and more dominant in various locations.... so perhaps I am attempting to fight some of the libertarian sentiments that sometimes stream through some of the bitcoin threads that attempt to presume that we are just going to be able to get rid of government and then some of the public resources are just going to end up taking care of themselves, whether we are referring to various public resources like air, water and airwaves (radio waves) or we are having some concerns about public health and welfare - which some folks like to proclaim that there is little to no public interest in some of the public health and welfare matters, and I am not even going to disagree that some governments do seem to take things too far in terms of pushing some concerns that might not even end up being very helpful to have government interventions in certain kinds of ways... but some of the point, also, is that we might not even be able to agree anyhow, so it's not like anyone or any group can really impose their values and then to say that this is how we should do this, because sometimes some public interests are a matter of compromise in which everyone is not going to be happy even in terms of the conclusions about whether a public interest (or public good) was sufficiently at stake in order to justify an interventions.


I doubt that there is really very much different about politics these days beyond the mere dynamic of information being way easier to disseminate, so in those kinds of dynamics need to be dealt with... Politicians have always engage in a variety of games and gamesmanship and all kinds of weird things, but some of the various political ideas are being batted around more quickly, and whether the free-flow of information is distracting or not, sure it changes what is going on and what might be possible, but in the end, it seems like a BIG so what if we are devolving into attempting to prescribe rather than describing....


I suppose that we will see.  I don't give too many shits, beyond attempting to appreciate that politics are going to continue, and bitcoin will go on either way.. and sure some administrations may well be more hostile to it than others, and to the extent that any of us might be concerned about politics in one direction or another we are surely free to join in on those circles.. and people from all political stripes can take a bitcoin position, so to a large degree it seems irrelevant and distracting to get too tied up in those frame works, at least from my current generalized thinkings on the topic.


I just do not find price moves as playing out strangely as you have further attempted to describe. 

Of course, each of us is entitled to our own opinion regarding what we believe to be strange or not strange, and it just does not seem strange to me and largely I had already provided my reasons in my earlier post as to why I don't consider BTC's current price position/dynamic to be significantly strange.

Congratulations on the completion of the de-Chineseization of Bitcoin. In the past few months, I have become tired of reading China’s news about Bitcoin. Whenever there is China in the title, I know that it will have a certain impact on the price of Bitcoin.

I especially hope that China will completely ban Bitcoin. As far as I know, China originally owned the vast majority of Bitcoin mining machines, which made me always worry about facing 51% attacks. However, China has now banned mining and various currency issuances, hoping to buy cheaper bitcoins from the Chinese.

For months? Well then you are a very lucky man because you have not had to read such news for years like some other members of this forum. Just to show you an example from 2013 -> China bans banks from handling Bitcoin trade (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-25233224)


Bitcoin has been banned in China for years, all that happens occasionally is just an additional tightening of pre-existing measures that are then used to create a FUD. This will not end as easily as we had hoped, and we will probably hear more bad news from China in the future - because for some reason the Chinese Communist Party has decided to take a slow approach and gradually introduce measures, which means they have become sloppy.

Some actions start taking place:

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blob55fb788f8aa1d953.jpeg (https://twitter.com/wublockchain/status/1442033490384474115?s=21)
https://twitter.com/wublockchain/status/1442033490384474115?s=21

Buoni just stopped accepting new China onshore users, and will close every Chinese account by EOY.

Will other Chinese exchange follow?

I suppose so, centralized exchanges have to comply to government laws and regulations, so I expect more exchanges in China to follow this same part. A part of me believes this is exactly what the Chinese government wants, news (FUD) such as this that prolly looks bad for Bitcoin, at least for those who do not sufficiently understand the network or how it has bounced back from far worse in previous times. That said, since this exchange is extending shutting off Chinese users till end of the year, could it be them waiting to see how all this pans out, considering this isn't the first time China have done something similar.

Their current ban list is :


Reality beats the crap out of any SF scenario so they've banned the US and Cuba ;D ;D ;D and Israel and Iran!
Since they haven't got a license in SK they will also have to ban both South Korea and North Korea users.

Not that I trust a random source but (https://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/3150149/bitcoin-exchanges-binance-and-huobi-stop-taking-mainland-chinese):


Seems like CZ knew something ahead of others, as usual, damn weasel.


I've never seen a complete right-wing government that would not borrow even one tiny aspect of the leftist ideology, most of the governments that were labeled extreme right had more to do with socialism than with the right move as it is defined and many are called so by their opposition just to label them as nazi or fascist.

If we go and start counting them one by one you will see that the Chinese government would be far more right-wing than the democratic party, nationalists, populisim, commerce laws, religion if we compare those the CCP is right-wing and the US is the left.

It seems that a key point is misunderstood. The document says that the institutions providing services are illegal, but it does not say that personal transactions of cryptocurrency are illegal. It shows that bitcoin is no longer a legally protected asset.Bitcoin trading, as a commodity trading behavior on the Internet, ordinary people have the freedom to participate at their own risk.

They can't accept the users from USA, else they will end up with the same fate as BTC-e/Wex.nz. The US government prohibits exchanges with relaxed KYC requirements from dealing with American users. Now coming to China, they are going to ban Chinese users based on IP. Using a VPN is also not going to work, because nowadays the exchanges are having software to identify VPN usage. The only option for the users in China is to access exchanges through TOR browser. But I don't know how Houbi will work in TOR. Else, they can travel to Hong Kong and use an IP from that location.

fillippone, it would be great to see licensed exchanges in China also follow suit for one reason and that is to still be able to operate their services and and get a license there. I don't know how many Chinese exchanges have been licensed so far, but I'm pretty sure other exchanges will comply with the law as well.

IMO, not many exchange are willing to relocate their services to another country that is more friendly to KYC or user regulations if at the same time they have enough active traders there that compliance with government rules will be considered. However, the communist nation has influenced many things on bitcoin from mining, trading issues to the latest regulations that trigger price movements. But I'm happy with the market reaction after that FUD disappeared within a few days.

China is doing this because they hate decentralization and there is no two ways around it. Chinese people, specially people who are bankrolled by CCP will come out and say that china is number one and china is great and how other nations are bad.

However, we all know that there is really nothing that would be justified to defend china. We all joke about "if Jackiechan says anything bad about CCP then his whole family in china would be "disappeared" and would not be heard again" and even though it is not serious when we say it because we have no power, the fact that we could talk about it and know that it is a possibility is scary, just like "if you go against Putin in Russia, you would be found with 2 gunshot wounds to head and ruled as suicide" as well.

It is just way too scary to live in those nations, I may not love my nation 100% but I am so thankful to god that I do not live in those nations. China is just a horrible horrible place that doesn't even allow crypto because they are scared to give up a bit of their centralized rule.

The impression this move from China gave to me is, Bitcoin has only become MORE valuable in China, and that the people under that tyrannical State has come to need Bitcoin MORE than they did BEFORE the ban.

That will 100% be true after this ban. The only way to move money away from the dictator was crypto and people were using that a lot. Now that it is fully banned (officially) people will look to find methods to save their money in crypto some other way. If you do it on P2P then officials will find where you are, pose as a trader, get to you and then they will prison you.

This is why it will be very very risky to continue, if you could do it online then they will do it online but they will not even risk the dangers of p2p so it is going to be very difficult. I hope that people there will be safe, because this is just another step of being a horrible nation.

China will never stop banning bitcoin until all the people who are secretly involve in it will stop from doing so. But that won't happen for sure. Bitcoin is becoming more irresistible these days so people will definitely find ways on how to continue its transactions even if it means doing it in some neighboring countries. And this continuous banning of bitcoin will even create more opportunities to those who are not yet involved into bitcoin because they will start to be curious on it and might eventually develop their interest investing in bitcoin. Well then, China will be more consistent in hating and banning bitcoin.

Well... if you are a Chinese citizen, then do that at your own risk. There were reports from Canada that students from China, who used social media from their mobile phone to spread "Free Tibet" message were called up by the embassy and told to stop their activity. All their posts were anonymous, but somehow the CCP found out what they were doing. If they can do this to someone residing in Canada, don't you think that they will be able to do much more to those who are residing in China? If I were in your place, I would just stop my crypto activity at least until I could get out of China.

Then the China FUD is a good indicator that Bitcoin is still being used in China, and its activity is still at high/healthy levels because the government still gives it some of its time to “BAN” it. Hahaha. 8)

I could say the same although tyrannical seem a bit off, if they're tyrannical then they're cruel to their own people but the only problem is that they're almost close to that since they still have concentration camps and they enforce heavy surveillance. That is also my indicator to accumulate more bitcoin because I know that when China gets into something like this, the market will eventually go up.

“Tyrannical” does NOT automatically mean “Cruel”, tyrranical simply means dictatorial, which is truly what the system the Chinese people is under.

Plus the “value” of Bitcoin in China is not only in financial terms, but in protecting an individual’s freedom/human rights.

However I don't think it all matters anymore because at exact 4 years ago, China's crypto crackdown sent bitcoin down 30%. In fact, I think now that China are finally pulling the plug and no longer able to "ban it again" is one of the awesome news I've ever heard.

The Chinese government declared 2017 Bitcoin illegal and banned cryptocurrency trading and use. That year, the Chinese government banned the exchange and expelled it from the country. But it's a matter of laughter A few months later, the Chinese government again recognized Bitcoin.

Today I read that the situation in China in terms of electricity is quite bad and that the north of the country is particularly affected, and there are big problems in as many as 17 provinces across the country. The problem is that the price of coal has doubled since last year, and the Chinese authorities have frozen prices for households, which is why more and more companies are getting into big trouble. On the other hand, the south is affected by high heat and lack of rain, which has significantly reduced hydropower production.

It seems that the Chinese could not support crypto mining even if they wanted to, because as far as I could understand the situation was so bad that China asked Russia for help.

https://thediplomat.com/2021/09/coal-shortages-force-blackouts-across-china/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/09/30/china-asks-russia-boost-electricity-amid-widespread-blackouts/

"It seems that the Chinese could not support crypto mining even if they wanted to, because as far as I could understand the situation was so bad that China asked Russia for help."

Do you really believe this above statement?

Just from my superficial understanding of bitcoin mining, it could provide incentives to smoothen out extremes and even contribute towards providing incentives for the harnessing of energy in remote places that could also end up subsidizing energy production in less remote places.  

In other words, I doubt that an automatic dismissal of bitcoin as being a positive force would be a proper conclusion.. but maybe you (or someone else) could explain why bitcoin would be a negative force in regards to energy production and consumption in an area in which energy problems exist?  By the way, I am suggesting to look at both production and consumption incentives rather than merely seeming to look at the consumption side and presuming production incentives to be constant... otherwise you appear to be spouting out superficial mainstream talking points about energy consumption being bad and presuming bitcoin also to be a bad consumptive thing and with little to no actual utility (or positive societal contribution).

This is not new to us again since the ban at this time has no serious effect on Bitcoin and crypto currency at large which simply mean that China is loosing it influence on Bitcoin as it use to be in the past. Though we understand that China cannot support Bitcoin or crypto currency mining since they are currently having power problem in the country but that alone should not be the main why they should ban all crypto currency activities in the country.

My thoughts on this are as follows:

- It was already clear that China was not pro-bitcoin, and as such this was more of an re-iteration of ideas rather than a new ban.
- It has been done multiple times before without avail.
- The decentralization of the network means that bitcoin will survive this regardless of whether other countries follow suit.

Nothing to worry about.

Unless everything we read in recent days is just a simple lie, the Chinese really have big problems with electricity supply, entire provinces are dark and power cuts will take at least 5-6 months. I wrote very clearly that the reason is a drastic increase in the price of coal (over 100%) and a reduction in production from hydro sources - if there is not enough energy for households and much-needed industry, it is no wonder that the Chinese first get rid of what really consumes a lot of energy, and on the other hand it is quite the opposite of their political ideology.

There is no need to link the “Bitcoin is bad for the environment” theory to what is currently happening in China, nor is the problem of crypto mining something that was decided 2 weeks ago. Crypto mining has only become a collateral victim of what was first (at least as far as I know) mentioned in 2011.


The concept of decentralized currency in a communist country was negatively marked 10 years ago, and it doesn't matter what the real reasons are, because communism is the complete opposite of what Bitcoin represents. Therefore, it was not a question of whether China would completely ban everything related to cryptocurrencies, but only a question of when it would do so.

Isn’t the “shortage” of coal in China self-inflicted? I believe they ordered to stop importing coal from some countries, but most of their supply are coming from Australia. It’s a political move, because China doesn’t want Australia to interfere in their claim of Taiwan and the regions in the South China Sea.

A lot of displacements in the energy markets are "self-imposed":

• Coal shortages in China are self-imposed retaliation against a nasty neighbor.
• Gas shortage in Europe are a self-imposed choke as we chose to rely on the Russian friends to heat our houses
• Gas importance in Europe is a self-imposed choice because we self-imposed a ban on nuclear energy
• Cap and trade scheme are self-imposed costs on top of energy costs hindering enterprise competitivity

The common root of this is: Politics interfering with free markets.

Yes it, is quite true.


No, unfortunately, it's not working like that.
Balancing productions means you're taking 1 apple from the 4 apple pile and put it in the two apple pile. Bitcoin mining looks at the price per apple and eats two out of that pile if they are the cheapest, then it moves to the next two that are next by price.
There is no balancing when you're consuming a lot of the resources based on price.

If miners would only do this they would only mine during sunny and windy days but nobody is going to do so, what was happening in Sichuan was an exception, they built thousands of micro dams for one purpose and then they realized they could have just built the dam, not the powerplant, so they were left in the rainy season with a lot of extra power, the extra power that was gone when the rain stopped and miners would go back to good old Xinjiang and rely on coal. You can see that there was no balance, when energy was abundant bitcoin mining consumed the extra, when the rain stopped and there was no extra bitcoin mining still consumed, again, the cheapest.


One coal plant owner says that his energy is cheap is reliable, it runs 24/7 and it doesn't need subsidies from the government, while the sun is unreliable, panels are also polluting and it's costlier. The sun farm owner says that coal is polluting, coal will eventually run out, that solar panels don't pollute the atmosphere and that the technology will get better and cheaper. Should I throw about views from nuclear or hydro? Everyone is right in what they are saying, there is no perfect truth and no perfect good.

There are bad facts about mining, nobody can deny it, there are positives also, but the most important thing is that one should never equal bitcoin with bitcoin mining, Bitcoin is about decentralization, abut being your own bank, about a lot of things, bitcoin mining is a business. Nothing else! It's a mean business like everything else, and just like exchanges, wallets providers and everyone else involved in it draws its revenue from the bitcoin price, it has nothing to do with the foundation bitcoin was built on.

Musk and the others are businessmen, they tell people what they think from their own perspective and their own interest. Do you think bitcoin miners are angels? No f way*! For example, the so-called Bitcoin Mining Council was telling us how they will mine with green energy and so, what was Marathon doing? Well, investing millions in expanding a coal powerplant, and the only reason was the price, you can't compete with that, no solar farm will offer you 2 cents power, not even Bukele magic well that produces more than power than the next 5 biggest wells in the world will be able to do so.

And now back to the China thing.
The Chinese did a lot of bad moves, and unfortunately, bitcoin indeed was a victim or a sacrifice.
As you might know from the news, the US is trying to build a new NATO in the pacific, see the Aussie submarine deal for example, and China is not liking this, of course, so they did start banning and putting taxes on Australian goods and on coal, And then the shitshow started.

A coal mining accident (the one that wiped 30% of the hashrate in April), an immediate coal production cut, overestimating how much coal they can produce on their own, overestimating how easily they could get coal from other countries, European countries coming out of lockdowns and demand growing everywhere, manufacturing starting at full power and demanding energy and this happening during the rainy season when you have more hydro, so with things looking that black what would you do as a government?

Cut the things that will not trigger an avalanche in other sectors! Bitcoin mining fits it!
Cut the thing that you can't use as a political and economic tool! Bitcoin mining fits the criteria again!

When you're low on energy that you close factories, you start opening pits you've closed for environmental issues, you accord permits to mine for coal on every piece of land, what would you have chosen if you were in their position? Running a government is also a business, just like mining!

Ps, I own a few miners, they run probably on either coal or gas-produced energy, zero to the negative chance of it being green, I don't have nightmares for what I'm doing but I'm not going to lie and say that I'm doing it to protect the network or something like that, just like my parents aren't proudly marching in the street for feeding hundreds of people nor do they have remorse every night for running a pig farm that also involves, you know..killing. If I/we wouldn't do this others would do it, the result will be the same in the end.

Bitcoin is about freedom, bitcoin mining is about money.

There are aspects of your post that I agree with including that bitcoin miners are going to mine no matter if the energy costs are high, low, green or not green based on their own calculations, and so part of my point was just to assert that it is likely overall better for the overall energy infrastructure to have bitcoin miners in the mix and incentivizing the consumption of energy - even if they are perceived as consuming all the energy.. blah blah blah bullshit... and sure you seem to be arguing that bitcoin miners are leeches on the energy system... so we disagree about that.

Anyhow, it does seem quite apparent that bitcoin miners are going to attempt to gravitate towards where energy is cheapest - since they tend to be a lot more mobile than many other (probably the vast majority of) energy users.. so sometimes they will end up using various kinds of energy that is otherwise not able to be used by the users.. and having little costs because of having little value, and sure I understand that bitcoin miners are not exclusively using the low cost and inaccessible energy.  Sometimes they are using whatever energy they can because BTC prices are going up or whatever other incentives they might sometimes have to mine as many bitcoin as they can during a certain period of relatively low hashrate, for example. 

I am not going to go through your other various points and examples because they seem to be a mixed bag in which I agree with some aspects and disagree with other aspects, even though I believe that I had already sufficiently and adequately made many of my points in my earlier points, and I stand by those in the sense that I do not believe that your examples are negating nor contrary to my points, even if you seem to be arguing that they are.

OK, then it isn’t about the price of coal “going double” starting since last year, but it’s about political decisions made because of some other political reason. I believe China would not have banned Bitcoin mining if it had not made that political decision. They expected it, and it wasn’t just another “attack on Bitcoin”.

On the flip side, the ban on btc isn't going to hurt either.  China's economy is so divorced from crypto it doesn't matter at all if it's banned.  Virtually the only thing that matters to hundreds of millions of Chinese is the real estate market.

The vast majority of Chinese wealth is tied into the real estate market (around 75% of wealth is directly tied to the real estate market in China).  Some of this is cultural (single men are expected to own their own home before women will consider them a suitable partner for marriage), some of this is dangerously presumptive (because so much individual wealth is tied into real estate, the belief by the people is the government will never let the market crash), and some of it is dangerous speculation (because the assumption is people believe the government will support real estate prices, people buy multiple properties assuming the prices can never drop or will never be allowed to drop).  

The complex reasons for the current state however put extreme pressure on the government to support the real estate market, creating a self-feeding loop that pushes prices higher and the higher prices convince more people that the investments are safe.  A real estate crash in China would create wide-ranging social unrest in China, and the party knows this.

If what you have posted is true, then I am 100% sure that it is not viable in the long term. China is a rapidly ageing society and right now there is a surplus of apartment buildings. The number of vacant buildings will rise further, as the population ageing progresses. During the last 3 decades, some of this ageing used to be neutralized by younger workers from the rural areas migrating to the cities. But now the number of older people retiring and moving back to the rural regions is almost as large as the number of younger people who are moving in the other direction.

I have checked the apartment prices in some of the major cities. Doesn't make any sense. They are as expensive as the apartments in Europe or the US. But the average wages are much below the level of Europe. So the vast majority of those who need them can't afford these apartments. Real estate sector calculated that the wages would grow as fast as they did in the first decade of this millennium, but that never happened. Either the apartment prices need to come down, or the government need to provide subsidies to those who need them.

There are a lot of things westerners have said about China that have not proven to be true.  For example, that the free aspects of the economy would make the country more democratic as the wealth it created caused people greater economic and political freedoms.  This was widely expected to be the case and it hasn't proven out.  So the prediction that their current system is 1) unsustainable and 2) poised to collapse are just a couple more predictions that, like the example I mentioned, seem likely but for which history has warned us against assuming to be true.

The aging population bit though you are absolutely right about.  And the ccp knows this, which is why you've seen new initiatives like the relaxing of the one-child policy to two-child, and then the relaxing of that to three-child, and the urging of raising larger families as a point of national pride and importance.  The government is trying to get people to have more children because the economy, and therefore the party's power, depends on it.

Regarding to this, I found an interesting presentation from Nic Carter.
I am posting a  slide, just to outline how much this decision helped the birth of an industry in Texas:

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blob97e038d69ae1d894.png (https://niccarter.info/wp-content/uploads/txsummit_nc_oct08.pdf)
https://niccarter.info/wp-content/uploads/txsummit_nc_oct08.pdf

On the same presentation there is another slide, forecasting the size of this industry, set to grow another 8x before 2030:

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blob20b597b23619f380.png (https://www.bitooda.io/public-files/091621%20BitOoda%20Hashrate%20Estimate%20Details.pdf)
https://www.bitooda.io/public-files/091621%20BitOoda%20Hashrate%20Estimate%20Details.pdf

They literally ditched their leadership in the most promising industry on they last decade.

@fillippone, how much is China's market share now? From your charts, I can see that their share of the hash rate dropped from 75%+ in 2019 to <50% by mid-2021. I wonder how much it is now, since a number of large miners shifted their operations from China due to the ongoing bans. Also, it doesn't mean that mining has stopped completely in China. The government is allowing the existing farms to operate under strict terms (although I am not sure for how long they will be allowed to mine coins).

When I read about China banning bitcoin mining I thought it was just a China-made FUD news, we were surprised to learn this news is actually true. This time it could be a news. same thing. Of course, this would be a serious mistake for China because China is one of the top BTC holders in the world they can manipulate the market and make huge profits. for your country. For many years, it is because they dominate the market that makes the economy of their country go up, so this is a very wrong decision of China.

As a coincidence CBECI Just updated their mining maps:
https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blob667391eb4a5c4f83.png (https://cbeci.org/mining_map)

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/15/blobaf64809f99f16b3f.png (https://cbeci.org/mining_map)

Now US accounts for 40% of the total hashing power.

They banning Digital currency and they reserved the bitcoin. this is not new think lots of time they tell ban digital currency and after someday they accept it so I don't understand what they want to do actually.

I am not clear about from where you would be getting your information.  You are suggesting that the Chinese government is doing opposite and contrary things simultaneously?

Sure those kinds of contrary and opposite things could happen, including the fact that they had seemed to have been engaged in a pattern of banning and unbanning, and that there might be manufacturing of mining equipment going on, so there could be some internal inconsistencies for sure, but I cannot understand what you mean by their "reserving" bitcoin which would suggest that the government is actually investing in bitcoin and holding it.. while they are banning it for others.. and that surely does not seem to be the case.

Of course, individual actors are likely engaging in all kinds of weird behaviors that may well be contrary to the governments policies and some of them might even be government officials, but there does not seem to be any official government policy to hold or invest in bitcoin, if that is what you seem to be saying and you want to clarify what you mean a wee bit more.

As far as the future goes, we can largely just speculate, and there does not really seem to be anything strange to the fact that some governments have seemed to have taken a strong stance against bitcoin and then later they are seemingly forced into taking lighter or more accepting position and then one branch of government might take an action that is contrary to another branch of government, and it seems difficult to consider any of these kinds of behaviors or even expectations that governments are going to contradict themselves over time into the future to be any kind of strange occurrence. 

Bitcoin is not exactly anything that has been easy for any governments or institutions to get a grasp upon and to figure out how to approach it, and especially when there can also be misunderstandings about both what bitcoin is and what might be the best regulatory approach to bitcoin,. whether taking a light-handed or strong-armed approach to it.... I doubt that any of us can really expect all governments to either be consistent amongst the factions within or with the passage of time or even be consistent with other governments around the world.. Probably part of bitcoin's great design is that there are incentives that are built into it that undermine various kinds of centralized systems, whether we are talking about governments or institutions, and in that regard, those various institutions have to adapt to bitcoin even if they might end up being all over the map in terms of their various ways of attempting to respond to bitcoin and even their trying to control bitcoin and figuring out that their ability to control it is really limited, so they are almost forced into taking more modest approaches if they end up wanting to prosper through their interactions with bitcoin.. which surely China is continuing to struggle with both bitcoin dynamics and some of their seeming ongoing beliefs that they are going to be able to harness and control bitcoin.. and likely later figure out that they (china) is going to have to adapt more to bitcoin in the event that they (china) does not want to get left behind.. We will see.. we will see... but I doubt that in the end we are going to expect consistencies, whether looking at their history, taking a snapshot of their present or even projecting into the future regarding what we expect them to do (and/or what they end up doing).

My question is, Who Cares?

They doing it for a few years now. They will do it as long as they can.

Let's enjoy a few memes. Sit tight and HODL.
Our JJG Turned his $17K BTC to over $90K. He still Holding.

https://i.imgur.com/F7mWG3Z.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0ZMEeC7.jpg

Hm?  I did not know that.  You seem to either not be understanding the exponential angle of your referent properly or basing your scenario on facts that are not even close to being in the record.

For example, if I had been asserting that my average cost per BTC was $1k.. which seems to be some of my more recent assertions, and I had also asserted that I have more than 0.63 BTC (which I had also asserted in recent times), then the best that you could do from facts that are actually in the record (rather than made up shit) would be to get the turning of around a $630 investment to a value of $43,470 (at the $69k peak) and then the coming back down of the value of such BTC investment to around $34,209 at current prices (using $54,300 for calculation purposes).

In other words, I am not sure from where you are getting your seemingly whimpy-ass price appreciation numbers..  

Are you presuming that I messed up my BTC investment even more than I had been admitting to messing up.. and just for charity sake, let's say hypothetically that someone like me had invested into bitcoin with $17k with an average cost per BTC of around $1k per BTC (which would end up being 17 BTC), then you should be getting a spot price value of such investment to be around $923,100... even though I have also asserted that I do not like to use spot BTC price to be measuring my own wealth or making considerations regarding how to manage my BTC investment,

....but I won't hold it against you to be using spot price in order to attempt to make some quippy points about spot price and if you do not get it, then you seem to be failing/refusing to understand and appreciate the exponential wealth accumulation that may well end up presenting itself for any of the longer term BTC investors who may have been able to hang onto their coins...and perhaps had been able to achieve $1k or even sub $1k average costs per BTC.

IDK if you get me wrong. But, I checked your BTC wallet address from your Signature and figured out that you received Nothing.

Then the question is why I write that? Actually messed up with copy/pasting your wallet address and I got the wrong result. Apologize.

That's a strange way to get to such conclusions.. and still not clear about what the point was anyhow.. .. unless you are just trying to say that some folks have more than 5x BTC price appreciation and they are still HODLing.. but even someone like me, I had asserted that I had gotten higher than 20x BTC price appreciation in 2017.. but then when the BTC prices sunk down had gone as low as 3x to 4x BTC price appreciation.. even at the various bottoms in 2018 or 2018 or even the 2020 flash crash..   but we know what happened after September 2020.. so surely anyone who had mostly invested in BTC before September 2020 would have 3x to 6x from whatever they had established prior to September 2020.

On the other hand, of course these can be moving targets for anyone trying to play around with their BTC holdings, and to try to trade rather than merely accumulate or HODL.. so there can be those levels of correct regarding the longer term players, but even longer term players can sometimes either get greedy or make mistakes..;. but each of us should be attempt to to figure out what to do based on our own situations rather than looking at what others might be doing (except maybe sometimes to attempt to learn from mistakes or even learn better practices that we can attempt to tailor to our own situations).

Billionaire Investor Charlie Munger Thinks China Was Right to Ban Bitcoin; Crypto Twitter Responds.
The Berkshire Hathaway vice chairman added that he wished crypto had never been invented.

Source: CoinDesh, https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2021/12/03/billionaire-investor-charlie-munger-thinks-china-was-right-to-ban-bitcoin-crypto-twitter-responds/ (https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2021/12/03/billionaire-investor-charlie-munger-thinks-china-was-right-to-ban-bitcoin-crypto-twitter-responds/)

LOL.

I am wondering how the hell people think these kinds of shit in 2021?

Of course, there is a bit of weirdness in Munger's perspective.. at least in regards to asserting that he wished that crypto currencies had never been invented... and it's comes off as a complaining about something that already exists and whining about it.... and surely does show a kind of hostility when coupled with his desire that governments should focus on attempting to control "crypto" in a variety of ways.

I doubt that we can really argue that he is wrong in his desires that governments attempt to take strong stances towards "crypto,"  and largely he seems to be just vocalizing a perspective that he has and a battle direction that he believes would be fruitful - and of course, many of us already involved in bitcoin (or even crypto for that matter) are going to view Munger as a wee bit out of touch.. and maybe even a bit of a too little too late - and I suppose another angle remains the convolution of ideas about what is going on in "crypto" and what is going on in bitcoin, and surely from my own perspective, I get a bit perturbed when I see commentary that convolutes the ideas of bitcoin and crypto so it largely causes me to conclude that some of these purported financial experts do not know what the fuck they are talking about since they sometimes are not really ready, willing or able to distinguish bitcoin from crypto. and to make sure that their commentary (to the extent potentially valid) is adequately informed in order to better direct their concerns in ways that show that they at least understand differences between the concepts of bitcoin and crypto... another acknowledgement that many of us likely recognize is that likely some of the financial expert commentaries on crypto retains some advantages in both confusing the ideas and even purposefully convoluting (even if they may likely know better).

The policy taken by China is Pure political interests because they do not want their power to manage the country's economy replaced. Since the BTC is present, who can regulate his condition besides each of them, this is a threat to the Chinese government that can be said to be an absolute authoritarian country.

Living life in China may not be as easy as we think. Although I have never visited the country but it will be very strange when everyone does not get much freedom in anything especially regarding their finances. So I don't think we need to talk about it all the time just because they can make FUD in the crypto market, it's never going to change things much because they are the ones that will stick with it in principle.

JayJuanGee, they generalize all crypto transaction without exception even though bitcoin is basically always different from thousands of other altcoin. I think we can only have a zero tolerance attitude towards them in this situation even though in the end they will stick with their decision.

Well, It's true. I don't know why they oppose cryptocurrency. They know they cannot pause/stop the crypto revolution. These economists know that their investment could be in jeopardy because of Bitcoin. Where the whole world has taken Bitcoin or cryptocurrency as the currency of the future. There are some stupid economists out there talking nonsense like crazy. But whether they tell the truth, or lie, because of these comments, sometimes the market got affected. They regret why they did not invest in Bitcoin before. But the face does not express it. If you secretly offer them some bitcoin, they will not reject the offer. Instead, they will take the loop as soon as they get the offer. Although many of us do not listen to them. But those who are new to Bitcoin are hesitant about these comments. We cannot stop them. But, We can create awareness against stupids like Munger through the community.

They have been saying the same thing like every single year. I’m even getting tired of seeing this particular news of China banning cryptocurrency, seriously it is starting to get on my nerves. If you have been following up with the news years back, you will keep seeing that the news are saying that China has banned cryptocurrency, we are always seeing a particular news that has to do or relates with that, so my question is how many times are they going to ban cryptocurrency?

If they are really banning cryptocurrency from their country, then why don’t they do it at once? Or is this just the media that is playing with people’s mind? Anyways, it has gotten past the level where this kind of news bothers me anymore, I just don’t care whether they ban cryptocurrency or not. It’s all their choice over there, if they decide that they want to ban cryptocurrency then it’s their business.

Well, If you are early in crypto. You will not surprised about china's shitty decision. They doing it for almost a decade now. Every time Bitcoin hits a new all-time high, china thinks "here we go again" It's time to fuck up the market again. The things Start In 2013. They Prohibited ICOs in 2017 then 2019, 2021, and finally 2021.

Here are 5 historical points of banning bitcoin in China.

• 2013: China declares war on crypto transactions
• 2017: ICOs prohibited
• 2019: Attention turns to bitcoin mining
• 2020: Enforcement ramps up
• 2021: China completely bans crypto trading and mining

Source: China Crypto Bans: A Complete History (https://www.coindesk.com/learn/china-crypto-bans-a-complete-history/#:~:text=China%27s%20hostile%20stance%20regarding%20crypto,handling%20transactions%20related%20to%20bitcoin.)

I would recommend you to read this article. Look like the last one is their final action. I don't give a shit on them. They will regret it one day. While every country and money transaction will change. And they have to change too.

BTW, Just Follow This meme:

https://i.imgur.com/kTz3ray.jpg