Bitcoin Forum

Hey everyone! So I've been working on getting something like this launched for quite some time and am excited to announce that 4K.com now supports Casascius coins!

As BTC price has increased, buying and selling Cas coins has become increasingly difficult, and this friction has led to, what I believe, a significant gap between sale price and what these should actually be valued at.

I've known the 4K founder Richard for quite some time, he got into crypto in 2011 and even though he only owns one Casascius coin, he has been a fantastic supporter of this endeavor and really understands the important historical value of these coins. I have put my money where my mouth is and provided a significant portion of my collection to seed the marketplace. One other member of the forum has also sent in several coins, and a few others have helped significantly with getting this launched. I'll let them chime in if they would like to reveal themselves but I am continually impressed by the amazing support from this community!

If you would like to get involved in any way, have suggestions, questions, or want to learn more about the listing process feel free to DM me. Between Pawn Stars, this, and the marketing cycle we have planned hopefully we can bring Cas coins and other crypto collectibles the attention they deserve!  ;D

Marketplace: https://4k.com/brand/casascius (https://4k.com/brand/casascius)

Yahoo Finance article: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/4k-platform-offer-over-18-160200705.html (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/4k-platform-offer-over-18-160200705.html)

Tweet thread: https://twitter.com/jonathantallen1/status/1451226408345227284?s=20 (https://twitter.com/jonathantallen1/status/1451226408345227284?s=20)

I don't get it.  So people are to trust this 3rd party with what could amount to a 6, 7 or even 8 figure amount of physical coins they own.  I don't know if I'd be able to sleep at night not knowing if they were safe.  Don't get me wrong I'm not implying anything I just don't know about 3rd parties holding my stuff and for me to get an nft in return.  What if I lost access to my nft thingy who gets the coin?

Edit:  fysa if any of those coins sell on that marketplace let me know I'm down for those prices  :)

Edit 2: always a good thing to get more visibility on physical crypto coins for sure.

They can use MJ  :P

Seems like the better alternative, mj that is

Definitely a valid concern and I've thought about this a lot. I think the issue is that 1) Very few people currently use bitcointalk relative to the current size of the crypto community 2) Anyone who comes here is going to have a hard time trusting MJ or other forum based escrows since they don't have any context of the forum history or how valid the trust system is (I think they're fantastic don't get me wrong, it's just hard for someone new to process) 3) the current structure of having a 3rd party escrow hold funds then having to mail the item (and trust the receiver will confirm receipt) or fly and meet the person (which for certain values there are serious security concerns) requires coordination/trust between three parties and is quite a challenge.

I've helped a few people source Cas coins in the past and it basically amounted to me hard vouching for both parties and was quite a challenge. If something goes wrong, the package gets lost, or the anon escrow stops responding what do you do? People don't want to deal with all of these concerns and it's obvious when seeing things like that recent MS65 5 BTC auction go for under peel value. Crypto solves the trust problem in the digital domain but the physical world still unfortunately requires trust assumptions. This team is all US based, identities are all known, the items are insured, and for larger amounts there are signed contracts with known people and legal entities. This allows legal recourse if something were to go wrong. The safest choice is to keep these in a safe but when it comes to selling them, I think this is a step in the right direction. All ears if there are ways to improve it or if you think the current forum system works better for 7-8 figure transactions I'd love to hear why.

Also, some cool stuff in the works now that these can be NFT'd, this allows them to be fractionalized (can sell/own a fraction of a coin) as well as used as collateral for loans or DeFi (access liquidity without realizing capital gains). 4K will also be launching yield farming for items listed on their exchange so even just sitting they will earn an ROI.

But yeah tl;dr do your own research and 4K will need to continually build up its trust with the community as they expand. I personally am trusting them but work within your own risk tolerance. 

eod, this website looks sick.

right!? me too  ;D

Hey eod, I think 4k has the right idea and definitely a first mover advantage outside of this forum. Wanted to share some constructive feedback after reviewing the site and comments above:

- NFTs and fractionalized ownership: my assumption is that the goal of this is to minimize the risk of product loss in transit during transfer of ownership and to allow participants to invest without paying the entire cost. My initial thoughts are that Casascius maintain value due to the value of being able to in fact hold a tangible good, though the NFT aspect replaces this which I am not quite sure is a good thing though NFTs even with recent mainstream auction success.  In order to properly crowdsource an item, take Rally for example which has perfected the model, the pricing would need to be reflective of market value to properly sell out to individuals which leads to my next thought.

- Current pricing and use of ERC20 platform: I believe we can all agree on this forum the asking prices are nowhere near the market rates over the last 2 years at any point. While the "make an offer" feature may appear to remedy this dilemma, I personally would not move my decentralized native bitcoin to a wrapped centralized version for the sole purpose of making an offer on this without knowing my offer would be taken into serious consideration. As someone who uses altcoin platforms daily and interact with contracts just to degen and mint the newest NFT, I feel like this may be an even harder sell for those who are bitcoin maxis. I noticed when I attempted to make an offer that the "spend amount" was my offer +10% which is interesting. My guess is the current price is intentionally marked high so a true market value can be found via the make an offer feature which I think may need changes to be successful such as requiring payment within x hours after a signed offer is accepted rather than requiring depositing funds ahead of time. If deposited funds are required, I would suggest allowing multiple options on expiration time similar to OpenSea's model if at all possible as 1 day on USDC could be catastrophic on some days  ;D

- Continue to gain interest: the pictures and authentication are flawless and I think brings added value to the service so kudos to the team. I think this does a great job of catching the attention at first glance as it did for me and more so then when I went to greatcollections.com to look at the 25BTC Cas on auction. So my feedback here is really just they have a real gem and should expand off other aspects to capitalize on this.

I actually considered NFTs and Cas which is why I minted the ENS domain casascius.eth, but due to my thoughts above I chose against pursuing it. Glad to see it being put to the test nonetheless and wish the best to the entire team. If successful this time next year, they can have the domain from me for free if wanted  :)

Best,
Rx

Eod,

Website looks great and I wish you all the success possible. This is a great move for physical bitcoins. Way to contribute to this cool hobby / financial sector and smart move partnering with 4K who is already up a rolling.

The coat check system is an interesting one. It seems like the marketing play on this business is trust, becoming the Swiss bankers of valuable collectibles.

Steeley

Is 4K looking to buy more cas coins? What's your spread between buy and sell price?

Just had my MS70 silver gilt 1 BTC sell for 3.5 WBTC on 4k, not sure how to feel tbh. Listed at fairly high prices because I wasn't that motivated to sell but apparently someone really wanted one  :o

txid: https://etherscan.io/tx/0x5d2dea2ab81fc8db685a4646b9b8cc5bd777a97714a01e3ba9542285e86f1c4c (https://etherscan.io/tx/0x5d2dea2ab81fc8db685a4646b9b8cc5bd777a97714a01e3ba9542285e86f1c4c)

Congrats! That's a very good premium IMHO and I don't think anyone on this forum would have paid anywhere near that. I know it's a beautiful rare coin just saying you sold it for a great premium.

iBHK8

I'm quite surprised about the lack of discussion around this sale. This is great news for owners and the highest premium I've seen one of these coins fetch in years (in BTC terms at least)  :o

I'll be keeping a close eye on 4K going forward


Congrats on the sale Eodguy

This is actually pretty amazing, getting the equivalent of 3.5x the value of the coin.  Well done

Interesting that the wallet was funded using tornado cash. Does this now get shipped to them?

If they redeem the NFT for the physical coin then I believe so.  Why is it interesting exactly? re: using tornado cash

cuz the point is to hide your money with tornado...but then you go and buy a physical asset. didn't make sense to me lol

Technically they bought an NFT, right? That should now be tradable on their marketplace. I was going to argue it was used for privacy but the platform would still need to know who you are irl I would imagine, so idk.

Casascius coins are the original NFTs. 4k getting some publicity.


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/rare-1-btc-casascius-coin-195300168.html

I'm just curious what made you willing to trust this site?  Seems like you could take that 3.5 BTC and buy 2 more of those coins from here to sell on that marketplace.  I know with a 250% premium on Casascius coins I would sell my entire collection.  I feel like this might fall into the too good to be true category.  The whole idea of sending them your coins in exchange for an NFT smells a little.  I'm happy for you though.  Were you ever worried you wouldn't get paid or that they would take your coin?  I don't think I could have taken such a risk.  Glad it paid off for you.  It must have felt great seeing those coins hit your wallet.  I hope others have a similar experience.

I would trust them. They have real $ backing them. They arent running off with the coins if thats your worry.  (I dont know any of them personally). StockX also announced they will be doing the same with sneakers.

with the "don't trust, verify" idea - I don't see myself buying anything of any value and then trusting someone I don't know to hold it for me. If I buy it, I am hodling it - plain and simple.

So far those who have trusted have been rewarded.  I'm just not sure I could be that trusting.  Granted I haven't done my research, so maybe that's why.  I just couldn't imagine offering that service myself and expecting anyone to use it.  I'm fully capable of executing it, but I wouldn't even want the risk myself. 

It's a cool innovation for trading physical goods and there are plenty of people who will partake I'm sure.  I guess I'm just too cynical of a person to be able to trust such an operation.  I'm jealous of the premium though.  If people are willing to take the risk of using this site, there's certainly plenty of opportunity to buy coins on this forum and resell for a massive profit...  I've got a 0.5 BTC Cas coin I'd sell for much lower than this site's asking prices if someone wanted to take the risk...

This is great!

Congrats @elianite !!

https://twitter.com/4KProtocol/status/1484266298385178626

That’s because we haven’t seen proof the sale was 100% legitimate and those who have been around longer with a bit more knowledge know that price if legitimate was a fluke (like what happens on eBay once in a while), which happens ( I've never seen a premium this high however ), but should not remotely be expected going forward. The coin prices listed on 4k aren’t going to drive this hobby anywhere as they likely aren’t going to sell.

4k kind of reminds me of Elias (Encyclopedia author) and his team at “CryptoVice”. Not as knowledgeable as the community here (speaking of their sales service, not encyclopedia,), and actively trying to steer sales away for their own profit that’s not really going to help the hobby grow.. like Scare City has done. The website is not well established. Unless I’m missing something I don’t see 4ks fees, insurance protection proof, terms of service etc. All red flags.  

NFTs are a cute idea but in theory are just that. The only true safety would come in the form of a legally drawn up agreement that could hold up in a court of law.

It’s great that we can see the team members, but that’s not really anything that’s going to make me sleep better using this service. You state in your video AnonymousMiner is an anonymous escrow. Many collectors here have met him or know his name, and he’s helped facilitate sales, but he’s not a technical forum escrow service.  OGNasty. MinerJones, Krogo, HHampuz who are, have been trusted with millions of dollars worth of collectibles for years, which is a proven track record (much of which viewable via the blockchain ). OGNasty and MinerJones were BitcoinTalk treasurers for several years who were entrusted with millions of dollars in btc by Theymos (of course who Satoshi left the site to). I’d say that’s a pretty impressive track record that is easily proven.

Site misinformation claiming Casascius/Mike Caldwell created the physical bitcoin concept is false. Gavin Andresen, Satoshis former lead dev did. BitBills were first to create one, in card form, and Mike followed suit shortly after. Also stating that bitcoin maxi’s see owning a Casascius coin as a must to be a who’s who is completely false. Most of the bitcoin maximalists HATE physical bitcoins (not your keys, not your coins). So those two false statements feel like misinformation used for artificial hype/sales tactics.

I just came across your video today and realized I had forgotten this thread was made. Truth is I’m stating here what was briefly echoed to me by long time collectors in “passing”. I just never looked in to the site.

Some of my concerns can hopefully be addressed, as sites like this are helpful in expanding the hobby, but this site in current form truthfully just really isn’t. These concerns are partially why business is going to Scarce and not 4k and will continue to until things are addressed /changed. -My 2 Satoshis

Note: your future staking  proposal brings up a whole other set of questions/concerns but I’ll save that for another day.

4K video - https://youtu.be/2Q3PjFTf7eo

Great points. I'd love to see proof this deal was legitimate. It very well could have, but the Bitcoin coming from tornado cash also makes it a bit sus.

Just saw that two of my coins were purchased here a few days ago. Brass MS69 0.5BTC, and brass MS69 1BTC for 1BTC and 2BTC respectively (2x face value).

https://etherscan.io/nft/0xebf19415d94be89a1d692f82af391685dc1bff79/50 (https://etherscan.io/nft/0xebf19415d94be89a1d692f82af391685dc1bff79/50)
https://etherscan.io/nft/0xebf19415d94be89a1d692f82af391685dc1bff79/53 (https://etherscan.io/nft/0xebf19415d94be89a1d692f82af391685dc1bff79/53)

Looks like they got immediately redeemed so they could be shipped out to the buyer.

Realized I must have missed this and wanted to respond to it since it's definitely valid. In regard to it being a fluke, hard to say. I've had three coins sell there so far, WBTC is in my wallet, can't speak for the buyers experience or motivation.  

Re insurance: https://4k.com/insurance

For terms of service not sure, there's an FAQ and some docs to sign that were sent over to me when I deposited my coins. Since it was such a large deal I signed a contract directly with 4K but not sure what the process is like if you do smaller valued item(s).

Fees, I don't think they are currently charging fees as they are venture backed and looking to scale up the platform.

Re coin prices I listed them for not "going to drive this hobby anywhere as they likely aren’t going to sell," I guess my only response is that coins selling on this forum for under peel value because there's less than a handful of interested buyers and they're all looking to scoop up coins at or below peel value is pretty disheartening from my hobbyist perspective. A few of mine have sold at the listed price, and that gives me hope that some kind of reasonable premium can come back to these collectibles.  

It's great that you personally know a lot of these individuals on the forum, and their credibility speaks for itself given their history and background but it's hard to pitch that outside of this community. I've personally arranged for Casascius sales with many of the members you stated and never once had concerns, but it took a massive amount of convincing for both counterparties to trust them. Hope you can see how the current forum process of buying and selling isn't ideal to someone who hasn't grown up on the forum.

I hear you about not stating the concept for physical crypto came from Gavin, definitely my mistake. Also yes, there is certainly disagreement within the BTC community about wanting to own one (although most of the BTC whales I know own quite a few).

Appreciate the detailed feedback, hopefully the options for this hobby continue to improve!