Bitcoin Forum

It's that time of the year again, where our coins are worth a lot more than they were months ago.

Sometimes it feels great sharing your gains on social media, especially if you haven't had this much money in the past. While I think we need to have our egos stroked once in a while, sharing them on social media(or by just telling everyone) is not the way to do it.

https://i.imgur.com/33zq7Ai.png

https://www.newsweek.com/bitcoin-millionaire-zaryn-dentzel-beaten-fortune-stolen-masked-robbery-cryptocurrency-1645550

"In LA, people will rob a convenience store for $50. Wait until they realize they can go into the home of a software engineer & make out with hundreds of thousands." - Nikita Bier (https://twitter.com/nikitabier/status/1455968098549317643/photo/1)

It's a scary world out there, ladies and gents. So you better watch out.

Some quick reads:

• https://blog.keys.casa/how-to-protect-your-bitcoin-from-5-wrench-attacks/
• https://cryptosec.info/wrench-attack/

This is why you should make sure that you don’t have access to your coins. There are people in this world who will take your life for $50. You can take every security precaution available and still be at risk. I have a similar take on passwords. I have no idea what my bitcointalk password is, so I’ll never have it stolen from me by force because I don’t know it. The downside to this plan being that a pissed off criminal might murder you anyway, or make it look like you drowned.

Or they could simply not believe you and continue to interrogate, since the sort of "normie" thing to do is to have one password for all your accounts, so that's what they might expect from you as well. The sure-fire way is always to not have them know that you own cryptocurrencies in the first place. "Prevention is better than cure", as they always say.

bad idea
in fiat land .. if someone knows you have a wal safe in your home. .. the more you try to tell them you dont know the key code to open it. the more strikes to the head you will get from them demanding you tell them

saying you have no access will not save your life. it may save your investment. but not your life.

instead have a second wallet with small amount and give them that. tell them its all you have ever had
..
its like street robbery. dont put al your cash in your easy to pickpocket wallet. only put $20 in it and keep your hundreds of dollars stored more safely. that way if ever attacked you only lose $20 and you give them what they want. thus removing the risk of continued assault.

I remember a law enforcement authority saying that when confronted with an armed robber, you don't resist. Instead, simply give the robber what he/she wants. In which case, the suggestion of franky1 applies. By saying you don't know your password or PIN or security key or whatever, it might seem to the robber that you are resisting. If a robber will take your life for $50, the same robber will definitely take your life for not giving the access to $100. Resistance always pisses off a robber who is oftentimes doing his/her thing as quick as possible.

I guess it is safer not to let anybody know that you have Bitcoin than not having access to your Bitcoin.

It doesn't have to be a huge sum and you can still get into trouble, for example for 1000$ back in 2015:
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/06/05/new-york-city-man-robbed-at-gunpoint-for-bitcoin.html
There is a list here (https://github.com/jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks/blob/master/README.md), I remember another one that had a lot more cases but I can't find it in my bookmarks, I'll add it later if I remember it but still of a lot of dangerous stuff has happened.

I'm amazed the ledger hack than yet triggered a few dozens of cases, or maybe we're unaware of them as the victims and police are not talking to the press.



When the downside means death, simple robbery looks like the better option to me.
Also, the risk of the guy who is doing robbing losing his nerves because you won't tell him the pass to a fortune that for him is a life-changer, ending with him shooting or beating the crap out of you and leaving you with a paralyzed limb or some brain trauma isn't a better outcome either in my opinion.

This is nightmare and to avoid this, to protect ourselves, we should not let others know that we are bitcoin investors or crypto investors.

The young generation has some habit that I don't know. They would prefer to share screenshot of their balance, make noise that they are crypto investors, etc. I don't naively believe all of those guys are rich but doing so, they put themselves under more eyes, observation and risk.

Risk of steal their coins online via hacks or in real life.

Unfortunately it isn't even only the younger peeps. I know a few "adults" that post Facebook/Instagram stories of price charts, and the percentages of how much their holdings have increased; and I'm not talking about one-off posts here, they post almost daily. Even adults aren't susceptible to flexing on social media.

Yes, #mk4 ..... They say, your coins are just as safe as your strength to tolerate torture and pain.  ;)

I think most people will give up those private keys or passwords for their hardware wallet, after the first nail was ripped from their finger or one tooth pulled. I have had a loaded gun to my head before... so I can tell you that your whole world flash before your eyes, when you are on the other side of that barrel.  :(

DO NOT brag about your wealth on social media, even if it is not about Crypto currencies, because it will paint a target on your back.  ;)

Yeah that's exactly what's happening to some people in my circle right now. They've been around since 2017 but it seems they're too proud on their recent gains from a dog themed meme token. I'm just not sure if it was their portfolio or they just grabbed it from somewhere.

This is why when people start talking about multisig, encryption and all that stuff, they sound exactly like in that comic about $5 wrench. The real solution is to heavily invest in physical security - get alarm, strong locks, live in a safe neighborhood, hire private security if you are really rich. Do not open doors to unknown people, do not go to unknown places with strangers that you met 20 minutes ago. The list can go on, because there's so many possible ways someone can rob you.

The news article doesn't mention that he got robbed for bragging about his wealth. He might have been targeted because people knew who he was. A successful entrepreneur who created his own company and sold it to a telecommunications giant. That sort of news goes around.

There is a politician in my neighborhood. He lives alone because his family lives in a different town. He is here because of work. He is also an expert in economics and looks wealthy by the way he dresses, the car he drives, etc.
Another neighbor owns an insurance company, a hotel, and a restaurant. I have never spoken with either of them, but I still know who they are. Now imagine what one might find out if they were interested in snooping around and visiting them with a mask over the face?!

What worries me in this article is the way they explain how he was storing his coins. Maybe they don't have all the details and don't know much about crypto. Nevertheless, it is mentioned that he was forced to reveal the password to his "online account."

https://www.newsweek.com/bitcoin-millionaire-zaryn-dentzel-beaten-fortune-stolen-masked-robbery-cryptocurrency-1645550

Maybe an exchange or a web wallet. A man of his status should know better about protecting his assets.         

Social media are painful in our society, somewhat toxic. People take risk and spend too much time for such social media.

I agree with you about that fact but I meant the younger they are, the more time they spend for social media and more activities to show off what they are doing, temporary achieve, etc. It's dangerous but they don't realize it before something happens.

Thanks for the reminder.
I am not the boastful type of guy so I guess I am safe about this. But, I still want to warn my friends about keeping their identity secure as much as possible to anyone especially the social media.
You can always post about what you purchased like your new gaming console but never tell them how you made money to buy it.  ;D
Let it be a secret unless they are also trying to figure out what cryptocurrencies are. Give them hints about it like you are also a rookie in the industry and trying to gain new information just like him.

That's why I'm against wearing a printed T-shirt that has a print of symbols of cryptocurrencies in it because I often walk alone and I may not know the people I encountered on the road maybe some of them will hunt me thinking that I'm one of those whales who owns a huge amount of cryptocurrencies. In this era, we need to stay low-key as if we don't own anything in this world. Sometimes when you hide who you really are, you always free and no need to hide from anyone.

Thats why you dont brag about how much crypto you own or worse yet, post your portfolio online. If you did that in 2017, and someone who knows ur identity rat you to some criminals, you will end up in a bad shape. Its much easier to steal from a geek at home than from a bank.
Thank god not everywhere is as bad as in USA when it comes to crime.

To expand on have a little wallet that you can give up. This is also the reason for multiple wallets. If they know you have BTC but not sure how much.
You can give them the $100 hot phone wallet and the $2500 from hardware wallet.
If the wrench hits continue you can then give them the BTC.25 cold storage wallet.
They never have to know about hardware wallet #2 with 10BTC in it.

You don't drive through bad neighborhoods in your exotic sports car with a bag of cash on the seat.
Guess what, the internet is a bad neighborhood.

Also about cold storage a topic on a while ago: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5326757

-Dave

The reminder remains valid, and a core aspect to bear in mind is that being your own bank also entails some risks that need to be taken into account in order to mitigate them. One obviously shouldn’t go around saying hey, I’ve got a "bank" at home with such amount of value in crypto. Even just the first part should likely be avoided being announced, regardless of the quantity.

The story about Zaryn Dentzel has evolved over the past hours, and the latest local update I read, states that no crypto was really stolen (he allegedly has 50M € in crypto), but rather the codes to access his bank accounts and his computer, which he feared might enable the thugs to access his crypto.

The above makes me wonder what type of wallet he really used. There is no mention to any hardware wallet, and the fact that by providing codes to his computer and bank accounts made him concerned for his crypto, points to something more in the line of [hypothesis] Electrum or an online wallet / custodial service [/hypothesis].

This is the reference article, Google Translated:
https://www-eldiario-es.translate.goog/politica/denuncia-fundador-tuenti-asaltantes-apodaban-numero-encapuchada-carolina_1_8456686.html?_x_tr_sl=es&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=es&_x_tr_pto=nui
If you read the article, you’ll find some near-to gory details that will make you cringe at the thought of it ... (hint: ball(s) related).

Publishing assets on social media makes people tempted to rob us, because one robbery incident is usually from oneself who is too ostentatious of wealth
Don't 50$ for 10$ even the robbers, if they are cornered, will kill us, so avoid announcing our assets anywhere, just be quiet like people who have nothing so that our lives are safe

Perhaps we should compile a list of tips and tricks about what to do in order to be safe,if you are rich.
If you are rich and famous,hire bodyguards and buy a house that looks like a well equipped fortress.
If you are rich by having lots of BTC,but you are not famous,then try to stay as anonymous as possible and don't tell anyone about your wealth.Try not go get doxxed.Doxxing is pretty common these days,most of the personal info of everyone can get leaked online.

This is easier said than done,because almost all rich people have a luxurious lifestyle.
You can't just lie to the robbers saying "I don't have any money!" while you are wearing expensive clothes,driving a Lambo and living in a big penthouse.The robbers aren't that dumb.

Sold his company for 75 million euros, then lost 50 million euros in Bitcoin after this attack, but at least he is still alive.
This attacks are happening all the time and Jameson Lopp even keeps known list of all Bitcoin attacks on his github page, that is one of the reasons he later started Casa.
Maybe someone from Spain can confirm this, but I think that Zaryn Dentzel was a public figure and it was known that he owns a lot of Bitcoins.
It's strange for someone who owns that much btc to not use multisig setup, but keep coins on some online account with password that is probably some centralized exchange, but maybe that saved his life.

Interesting thing I noticed is that he was posting on twitter in 2014 about WSJ article how Bitcoin price could go to $1 million:
https://twitter.com/zaryn/status/451977124207812608

Yeap. But the main point is that he got robbed due to people knowing about his wealth, despite us not knowing what the main cause is. And I'm pretty sure 99% of us here aren't some big shot entrepreneur. Main point being the warning, not necessarily the poor dude.

It should also serve as a reminder how easily someone can steal your coin physically from you with cheap weapon if you don't take necessary precautions in securing the fund as single holder. I think it's always better to keep the amount of money you have private... (by private I mean to Yourself alone or to people that keep no secret from you, you know everything about yourselves, you see yourselves as One & can't steal from each other).    Also try to split your coin into multiple keys if you have alot on single keys. Splitting the fund in multiple parts and having special keys for the attackers with reasonable amount that you probably can set to presend to address you control when it's stolen. There should be features to protect from the $5 wrench attack.

My necessary precautions:

- Buy a gun (semi-autos like AR-15 are preferable)
- Learn how to use it
- Practice physical self-defense

Then you can shoot the living hell out of anyone that tries to rob you without fearing anyone, anymore.

$5 wrenches don't stand a chance to a $2000 gun, guys.

[before anyone calls me crazy, physical self-defense is legal in (almost??) all jurisdictions]

I'd recommend the same, depending on your jurisdiction's gun laws of course. As for physical self-defense, two words: Brazilian Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Trust me when I say that you do NOT want to mess with a jiu-jitsu practitioner.

In general:

• one vs. one combat: Brazilian jiu-jitsu
• one vs. multiple combat: if running isn't an option, Muay Thai

You totally missed the point. Read the linked articles and come back here.

Well in my country if you got robbed for the coins then no one will simply care and there wont be any police case because there is no jurisdiction as far as I know for the coins. The first thing policeman will ask is how did you get those coins. Lolz.

Moreover even if I loge a FIR, it will take decades of time to solve my case and by the time the robber would have fled to some other country living his life on shores with good beer in his hand.

So by nature only we are told how to be way careful with your stuff even when you are traveling by bus or train here. So yeah, exposing the wealth over social media is the last thing I would do. The country: India ;D

Thanks for the reminder. Thats really important one.

Just near my house there has been a robbery case, although it is not a serious problem, it has also warned people not to brag about anything on social networks.
Like it or not, we are still living in a society with many potential risks if we do not know how to equip the skills to protect and combat it. Earned money is also not happy because there will be people watching, and criminals will not forgive you if you have a lot of money.

This is what's going to happen. That's why I'd instead recommend to keep holdings as secret as possible & in worst case hand over keys to smaller (but still belieavable) amount of coin.

If a rich man gets robbed and claims he has nothing (or hands over a wallet with $5 in it), he will continue getting tortured until he gives the 'real wallet'. Should be similar with Bitcoin robberies, I think. But if he can provide a wallet with a non-negligible amount, which is though still much less than his entire savings, that could save him.

In my country, weapons can be used when absolutely necessary. To put it very simply, I can only shoot a pistol after the wrench gets stuck in my head.
The weapon is very effective at close range, because while I pull it out, I will get a few stabs with a knife or a wrench.

I heard that in the USA you can shoot a person if you are in a car, and he breaks your car with a bat.
In Russia, in a similar situation, the criminal must first inflict serious damage on you, so that this situation is a case of extreme necessity.
And still after the shot there will be a very long trial in court.

Thats good for you mate. Not in my country, the jurisdiction does not allow to carry the weapon, not even under the name of self defence. In addition to this, the gun is only issued to the VIP's and that is also has very very harsh process to follow. It is another thing that individuals would carry illegally acquired weapons but then again the rule does not bend in pretty good sense and if you caught with it, then you are guilty no matter what.

It's better to safe guard the assets that we have by not telling anyone that we have it. Just be anonymous and we are good to go. I would be far more careful not to fall for court circles or law box.  :)

I've always kept my cool whenever the market is pumping. I've always thought of wrench attack or worse than that if I'm too showy on social medias.
But with the craze of NFT gaming, I've got a lot of friends sharing their gains and that's totally fine to me. Although I don't do the same thing that they does, I wish them that safety at all times and as well as to me too. It's always better to remain low when you've got thousands to millions of bitcoin/crypto assets.

It's definitely a worthwhile reminder that some people here have $50k+ stored in Bitcoin and some people would literally kill you to get hold of that sort of money. It's easy to get complacent when you have lots of cash and assets floating around, that you might want to start bragging when the alcohol starts flowing out at the bar - but you never know who is around you that might be listening to your conversation, or what steps they might take after overhearing such things. It just goes with being humble I guess and realizing that money might cause people to do some horrible things against you, staying quiet about your wealth is probably best even with your closest friends and family.

With the ideology that every Bitcoiner is a millionaire, then I consider it too much of a risk to tell people you have Bitcoin, or you deal on/with Bitcoin, I have actually had individuals discuss about how much money they have in Bitcoin or have made from Bitcoin without understanding the risk they run doing that, I'll be in such discussions and wouldn't utter a word, it's that much of a secret that even most of my close pals do not even know that I do have some Bitcoin in my possession, there are many ways to protect yourself from a $5 wrench attack, but the preliminary step and the biggest one of them all is keeping your mouth shut about how much Bitcoin you have, if people do not have the perception that they can take something valuable from you, then they wouldn't bother attempting to rob you.

This is why people should be discreet about their wealth and status, and what kind of assets do they have in order to prevent such attacks. If you are a bitcoin or crypto millionaire and almost all of your information are public, you better increase your security, else you'll constantly be hounded and followed by people with ill intentions towards you, wanting to get some money off of you.

One thing I learned about such attacks is that you shouldn't be showing off too much on social media and the internet if you don't want bad things happening to you. We live in a crazy world and crazy age wherein lots of people are greedy and willing to do nefarious things just to gain something for themselves.

I don’t think there was ever a time when it was good to tell people how much you have . Doing so, you’re letting them know that you are rich and they can easily rob you and get away with lots of money in their pocket.

So, it’s best to keep things like this a secret, and only people that are very close to you are allowed to know things like this. When I say people who are close to you, I mean your family like your wife and children, and not just anybody, even in your family you also need to be scared of some of them because they can also back stab you. Whatever I am making in investing into Bitcoin is just my business and no one else’s business, I only do it to take care of my family so it’s not the public’s business.

Be careful with children! Everyone loves and trusts their kids, sure, but especially when they're small and don't understand shit about the world they live in, they sometimes talk a bit too much. Like, forget about Bitcoin; many children talk about how much their parents earn if you tell them, as well! ::)

Ditto. There will be A LOT of bragging to friends in the younger teenage years of most kids. Bragging about girlfriends and winning fistfights can also end with "my parents are rich and has a crap ton of crypto".

He should have been more cautious. A wealthy person can't be so negligent like he was on this situation when 4 or 5 unknown hooded men rang the bell. Some basic security measures could have prevented this whole situation from happening. Actually this man seems to have been so naive that it makes me imagine the possibility this assault was forged. ???

You have a point but that'd probably only work if they've randomly picked someone to rob, as opposed to specifically choosing someone as their target + there's no guarantee that they'd not kill you after giving them what they wanted ^{[unfortunately, it's always 50-50]}!

Both of you are probably correct and he isn't the first one to intentionally ^{[convenience]}/unintentionally ^{[limited knowledge]} store a significant amount with a custodial service: California resident lost roughly $24 million in cryptocurrency (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/15/cryptocurrency-investor-sues-att-for-224-million-over-loss-of-digita.html)

Not in where I am at the moment ^{[unfortunately]}! If you harm the robber in any way, they can sue you ^{[it's ridiculous]}!
^{- Your best bet is to pin down the robber, without actually hurting him [easier said than done]!}

No one should know you are rich and you shouldn't look and act rich. That's the easiest way to stay under the radar. If you walk around town like a pimp in shinny clothes and a golden cane, people will start asking questions. 

Ledger and Trezor call that plausible deniability. If the thief doesn't know exactly what you have, you give him access to a wallet that holds enough coins to satisfy him. He can't know that you have other funds protected by passphrases unless you or someone else told him about it.   

That's too harsh lol, you can defend yourself even you buy a pistol (Glock 43X MOS Glock) or handguns, it's easier and not heavy just like what you have said.  Here in my country, anyone can have that firearm to protect themselves but there's a lot of requirements to follow that should be legal.

There's no need to have above if we know how to secret our valuable assets or wealth if you have a lot of them why not you didn't a security personal to guard and watch your territory.  On the other hand, this was the greatest advantage of crypto, it can't steal by someone easily if they don't break your private key.  We should be careful anytime, but fortunately here in my place, I didn't hear such a case that someone gets robbed, and practicing self-defense is very important for self-protection.

Based on your recommendation of acquiring an assault rifle, I think it's fair to conclude that you are an American. ;D

Different countries and different laws.
There are regions in this godforsaken planet where you aren't allowed to tie someone up, pin him down, or arrest him until the police arrives. Once they come, he will be charged with whatever it is that he did and you will pay a fine for illegally detaining an individual. Or worse, depending on what you did to him. After all, he has rights. Those rights include robing you or hurting your family. You aren't allowed to take his constitutional rights away from him because that hurts his feelings and makes him sad.