Bitcoin Forum

Lets do the little calculation why
You buy house or apartment with total 300,000$
You have to put down payment of 15-30k ...wich is all ready bad.
With this 15-30k you can make more money in 1-2 years by investing it  on gold stock IPO usually 5x-10x return of good ipo if u buy before listing.

With crypto u can make easy one year 100k of this if you divide this money small percentages. And buying  dips of btc and some othet good coins.

But if you put money down on mortgage that big and it takes 20-30 years to pay back mortgage well the chnages are u never going to pay off this also you put your capital wich has a lot good ways to use just giving away your hard earned money.


Mortgage without high rate and without downpayment even not smart but with downpayment no right in their mind will never do that.

You better rent if you can afford downpayment the money u r willing to put down for the downpayment  u can live one year in decent apartment and you have money free to use.

Second thing is it smart to buy property ?
Only smart is you want to let and making profit out of it.

But to be smart with money you can buy items only wich not exeeds your 2%  then you stay in preospeurs state in your life.

How do i know its time to buy or sell ?
Its so simple if dollar strong.....you sell dollar.
And buy back weaker dollar to get cheaper dollars.

If inflation hitting hard its a top on markets so no goestions about it you sell everything if inflation going lower you buy everything.

Do not worry about something you sold at the ATH and it keep going higher after this its a " overbought" the fools trick. The price will come down sooner or later make sure u sell at green all gold real estate stocks and crypto.


As we see so many easy opportunities to use money smart to but it down on mortgage payment its a clearly wrong doing with ur finances and waste of money.


If you put down payment on mortgage its money you just trhow away and never gona see it.

Realistically, if you have the money for a house, you might be better off taking out a mortgage at 2% interest and investing in stocks and making 4% though so it depends on where you are I guess (stocks were used as an example as I'd consider them more stable and you can diversify globally quite easy with them and 4% is often returned from utilities)...

[not financial advice]

Mortgage in some countries is ofcourse undeniably ridiculous. But you have to understand that it's not always about buying a house it's also *sentiments as well* which is honestly very important for some people.

Some people do not want to buy a house at all, they rent for a long period of time and haven't been happier, therefore I do think that we cannot compare since money and smart decisions aside, sometimes it's important for the family.

Mortgage is a good and wise decision if you know you are living in a place where the rent is extremely expensive. Honestly look at the apartments in London, you can just buy one for 2 year worth of rent.

Therefore it's not so easy to calculate the right decision to make. But investing is ofc a good way to make that money, especially investing in stocks and bitcoins. But that too is not 100% true since you might need to encash when the value is low and might have to hold onto that.

If u buy then yes but not good to take it with mortgage.

What a dumbass, not all your money should be put in an investing instrument, there are other forms besides the investing that you're talking about and the one that you're saying that's bad way to spend money is actually a really good investment which is real estate and we all know that real estate will only go up in value thus placing mortgage to pay for your own home is an investment itself especially if you want to settle down, renting would be bad long-term. But I can see where you're getting at, mortgage is expensive but to say that it's a bad investment isn't really a fair statement.

I'm just not sure why people only think of 1-2 year gain in bitcoin. This investment is risky where no one can guarantee that we will get 100% annual return on investment. I know that in the long term we will be very happy with the return, but when they invest in the ATH price, they have to hold on to it longer. Indeed, this investment is profitable, but must consider the risks. I only talk about bitcoin investing because I think crypto (altcoin) are generally no better than bitcoin.

Mortgage, it really depends on what purpose you are doing it. I don't have to do it just because I want to own a house because generally I only need a minimum of $20K to own a simple and minimalist house in my country. Some people in my work environment have been doing it for a period of 5-10 years, but generally they are not people who have an interest in investing (stocks or crypto) but if they buy gold.

U dont neeed to invest ATH time price !!
U buy low

To give out 20-30k for down payment i dont get nothing for this really just more the obligatoion to pay debt.
Better use money smart way why should u give to banks ?
Take the 30 years mortgage plan u are 30...you get payed when you are 60 its grazy anything could happening ...

When you take ur mortgage down payment just keep that money wait for crash and buy things cheap in this inflationary money printing scenario we are in now more often crashes occurs.

Or take ur 30k go some cheap place buy house there and rent it out not good to just give away  for so called " mortgage down payment"
Also ur morgtage monthly payment are quite similar with rental payment adding up your 30k also we get quite bad financial decision here to get mortgate

I mean come on what to say, I need house to live in so that I can save myself and my family from rain, winter, summer man. My house won’t be mine forever, it will surely passéd down to the children, their children and their children so on. So in my family or anyone’s family someone has to take this bright step to build a base. In my country this is by default big thing and our houses stay as it is for generations to come. It’s our pride as well as hereditary property which we keep passing on and on.

Making money is good thing, and if I’m earning 100k every year from crypto currency then I’m sure my life’s way easier to buy house without mortgage.

It’s not wrong by the way, you have to do it and you need basic thing like shelter to breath in peace.

Well, you don't pay that amount if you don't have any means to sustain the payments and to keep things going. You're saying is bad because you're buying a house immediately when you know that you're money and what you're earning isn't enough. You buy a house and pay mortgage when you know that you'll be able to pay it. It's not a bad financial decision, you just suck at making a plan on what you should be putting your money in.

Its a bad situation to be in debt 30 years that big without down payment it might be option but u make urself in debt u might lose ur house also u lose down payment and also the money what u did payed as life have no guarantees its not smart to put urself in more not beneficial situation.
If u do have money to put down paymemt u might just considereing the option to rent as u dont need to put down 30k

Second thing is buying car with 30k is same dumb move as using this 30k for mortgage downpayment.
In case of car always its good to lease with zero or near zero down payment.



Remember guys you always neeed cash reserves in ur life so live the way u never give away ur reserves so think whts most beneficial for you.

When making out decisions like this then it would really be needing that consideration and proper thinking and realization if it would be good or not for long term and this isnt something that you shouldnt really mind off because it would really be just a waste if you do able to stop paying and lost the house or car that you've been paying off for long because they would definitely be pulling it off if you wont able to pay it correctly and exactly. Mortgage isnt bad as long you are responsible and be mindful on your due and this is where some people do lack off and starts to regret when they already lost something.

Not really.

Mortgages give you tremendous leverage at a cheap price (at least at current ridiculously low interest rates) which allows you to make great profits when housing even goes up by just a little.

It's the reason why housing markets are as attractive if not more so compared to the stock market - without this leverage, it is not very attractive at all.

I find a lot of people that think this way. They basically say it’s stupid buying cars cash when you can get a loan for like 3% and invest the rest and make 10%. Or people like the OP who say mortgage is stupid when you can rent and just invest your down payment in crypto or stock market and make at least >10%.

I got news for you. The stock market or crypto market won’t always go up. Sure if you are guaranteed 10% then it’s a different story but just because the stock or crypto markets had a good run the last decade doesn’t mean that the next 10 will be the same.

That sounds easy ;D

But that is not easy as we think because some people can take a loan for their lives and use it to develop or grow their business. But most people are afraid to take a loan because they think that it will feel hard to repay the loan. There is no guarantee we can make a big profit investing in crypto in one year because we already saw that crypto is unpredicted and sometimes, we need to have big patience to see our investment value is growing.

People can invest in crypto but they should use the money they can afford and not take a big risk if they can not handle the risk. People can gamble with their lives while others just do not want to risk their lives with the loan.

This is the dumbest financial advice you could possibly give. You're advocating for someone to essentially gamble with the money they could use to buy a house, or pay for rent (the roof over their head essentially). You do not invest with money you need to live, you invest with excess fund you have in order to grow wealth.

Gambling the house payment away is a great way to end up homeless. You seem so sure you could get a 5x-10x return on any investment, are there contingency plans? Doesn't sound like it from your post. In the event you end up with a net loss, then what? You have no assets, and you ended up with less money after investment.

Genius thinking.

I think paying rent then invest the rest on crypto or gold ipo according to op is not a bad idea, there is a good chance you can double that invested amount then you can buy a house without having to go through a mortgage, although the crypto market is not predictable, anything can happen, but the chances of getting good returns is high.

Lol, I wouldn't have put it that way, but I find the OP lecturing us on this subject amusing to say the least.

The whole argument of investing the money you have instead of paying a down payment is garbage and does not take into account the risk. If you pay 10% of your mortgage from the beginning you already have 10% equity, and every month that goes by, you have more equity. Having a paid off house gives you a lot of peace of mind.

I don't deny that some people might do well with what the OP says, but most people will do better with a simpler way and low risk.

not financial advice either.

The fact that you buy a house with x5 or more leverage is what makes it an interesting business. You are basically doing business with someone else's money. If inflation is around 2% and you are paying a 2 o 3% is quite difficult to end worse than you started even if things go south. The main risk is not being able to pay or get into a large negative equity, but that is not really common unless you buy at the peak of a bubble or have very bad luck on your choices.

On top of that, if you are buying a house to live in, you would always need to consider that anyway you would need to pay to live somewhere, so the alternative is not to spend zero.

I'm not a big fan of mortgage and don't do any of that myself but, we cont completely rule it out to be a bad choice. In one instance, it gives many a chance to own some property and if one is diligent enough and follow his or her payment plan, one might archive the payment of all that is owed.

Paying rent and investing for a few years might seem like the best way to go but, let's not forget that, investing is never a 100% chance for success. It could go sideways too and that too pushes years of expectation into the distance. Hence, it becomes less an option you one who doesn't have the foresight for a good investment idea.

We can not be considering if mortgage is cheap or not but the purpose first which is shelter. We need to remember that when talk of mortgage, we are talking of properties or building that is the focus , so being expensive is not the issue because it looks as if a house is being in mortgage.

However, talking about benefit of mortgage, it has given many pentionals houses that they have settled in.

We're all believing in crypto but don't make this look confident and easy. This is like a false promise to a newbie that would see this and you don't get easy $100k unless you have a greater capital to start with.

I agree with this, this is a known strategy but doesn't make it look easy that people can make $100k without going through difficulties.

But you know what, you don't know someone's financial situation and way of living. If they want to own a house with the best that they can and confidently that they can, let them do what they think is right.

The best method IMO is to buy an acre or more of land for $2k to $15k. Purchase a prefabricated home kit for $20k to $50k. There used to be listings for them everywhere. Even amazon used to sell them before Jeff Bezos stepped down as CEO.

It is possible to have land and a house for the cost of your $15k to $30k down payment. If the labor, equipment and DIY construction time can be accounted for. Tools, compressors, tractors and trucks can all be rented from places like home depot. Expertise is available through the internet and youtube. While building codes and permits can normally be an obstacle. There are prefab home kits that do comply with building code via default.

I think the sad truth is, many $20 million dollar mansions only costed $500k to $1 million in materials to build. The rest of the $19.5 million is the cost of, labor, land and neighborhood. Real estate and homes are usually overpriced.

Or buy a tent....
The gas you will pay for commuting, the extra heating for that prefabricated home, the discomfort from living in a dollhouse, for what? We had those 70sqm2 deals around here too, it costs 40k euros one, but with VAT, delivery, assembly, permits, utility cost it went to 75k.
And good luck finding an acre of land for 10k anywhere in Europe, there is no way to get it under 10E/sqm2 unless you go somewhere in the wilderness with no roads and no water or electricity.


Would you let your kids alone in the house you've done the electrical wiring yourself after watching youtube tutorials? There are limits to DYI and to being cheap.
I've seen enough mining rig accidents and fires and burned electronics in the mining section and this from poeple who really had a clue about it, imagine what somebody who doesn't know the difference between watts and ampers would do.


Amusing? It's not even amusing anymore, if he only presented his idea and asked for feedback it would have been a bit funny, but he has started calling others dumbasses and he thinks he is a genius while all the others are too stupid to understand.

Put all your money into IPOs and make x10 in two years.
No, it's not funny, it's quite alarming that there are poeple who would think like that.

I don't think this is a right or wrong situation. Mortgage may be the least preferred solution when you need a house. Often the problem arises because you don't really need a house, but society (or your wife lol) pushes you to overspend. Anyway, when you really need a house, as long as the monthly instalment doesn't make you more suffer, it's a good decision IMO.

Ok, so whilst you are investing that money into Crypto that you are not paying on a mortage.. where are you staying? Well, you are staying in a "rental" house of someone else that are making money out of you.  ::)

Let's make a quick calculation of that (without a yearly increase in rent) :

First 10 years you are Single.... so you rent a 1 bedroom apartment for say $1000 pm x 12 x 10 = $120 000
Then you get married and you have kids within 5 years ..so you rent something bigger for say $2000 pm x 12 x 10 = $240 000
After 10 years your children grow up.. you need a more "entertainment" oriented house with a pool = $3000 pm x 12 x 10 = $360 000

Total after 30 years spend on rent = $720 000 !!! (Worst of all... you have NO property/Asset to show for it)  ;)

Some people have achieved to own a house by the means of mortgage and no matter how painful or stressful it was for them at the end of the month was inconsequential. I believe this too that we don't need to consider the inconvenience which will be temporary and at the end we are happy owing the house. Suffering is not permanent, hard times don't last forever.

You're saying it's easy to make a 10x profit with cryptos within a year, but if it were so easy, more people would have done it. Plain hodling won't bring such profits, and if one's doing some trading, it is very easy to lose money as well. Not to mention that cryptos are in a gray area in many countries, and while you can use them and sell for fiat in small amounts, getting hold of enough money to buy accommodation for cryptos might be very difficult. Also, you're saying it's okay to buy a house but not with mortgage. Well, what if you don't have a place of yours and are renting?
You're spending a lot of money on rent every month, and even if you're renting at a pretty good price, in about 10 years of rent you would have most certainly spent the amount required to buy a flat (or see Kakmakr's calculation for a longer time period), and yet you'd still own nothing and keep renting, spending more and more money every year. So if you can't afford to buy a house because you have to spend money on renting, mortgage might be the only reasonable way to go, unfortunately. Even with high interest rates.

You seem quite naive and suffer extreme tunnel vision when it comes to cryptocurrency. Property has been an incredible investment for hundreds of millions of people around the world, not only that - it gives them a place to live. People are putting a downpayment of 10% of the value, borrowing at 1% in some cases and the value of the asset is increasing by up to 10% per year - that is an incredible investment that is extremely safe compared to any sort of stock market investing with comparable returns. You pick random figures out of the air like making 5x-10x in a couple years is easy - if it was so easy then money would quickly be devalued and everyone would be doing it. It's not possible to make such returns without extreme risk that many people cannot afford.

Circumstances vary from one country to another. In my country, however, the great majority of the people cannot buy a decent house without getting into mortgage. Borrowing is the only way for them to be able to own as expensive a property as a house. A house may be a basic need for a family, but owning one is very difficult.

If one is to only to rely on savings, salary, income from small businesses, and so on, it would take decades and decades before a house is built. So, many would find it practical to take a mortgage and pay monthly for 2-3 decades in relatively small amounts.

Only people who don't understand mortgages pose risks and dangers to them, unless they fully understand the downsides of getting a mortgage.  Low interest rates compared to other loans, flexible interest payment/terms.  Long ago I was not interested in bank loans but my loans from the bitcoin based ecosystem - Sovryn is where I put my loans.

Our mortgage was popular in about 2005-2010. But as always, not everyone understood the risks, someone took a mortgage in foreign currency instead of local, and the next inflation "proved" their illogicality. Many banks did not behave very correctly, forming very tricky mortgage agreements, where it was difficult to form the real amount of overpayment ...
The situation changed a lot when developers (this really refers to apartment developers) began to give payment by installments for 3-5-10 years with very attractive conditions - for example, 1-1.75% per annum of the balance (there is an initial, not very large contribution ). This is a much more convenient home buying model.

You would really be hooked up if you do let yourself get interested on those kind of offers but its not bad on at least engaging with loans or mortgages as long you are really that responsible on paying those
and you should be aware on how interest and increases would really be a burden for a period of time. So be wise and be sure that you could really pay it up on the terms you had set out.
It is true that you would really be making things become a big problem if you do just make out decisions without those reconsiderations.

Those numbers seem extremely low for high cost of living places around the world, like Oslo, San Francisco, Sydney, New York, Toronto, etc.

Over there you're looking at buying a nice one or two bedroom apartment for more than 1 million dollars, usually the loan would require around 10-20% at a minimum, and that's 100-200k that goes to the deposit.

It's crazy out there in some cities.

I wouldn't say buying is a bad decision always, but you definitely need to run the numbers, you might be better off renting in high costs of living areas.

You can run numbers all you want but there is intrinsic value in holding a mortgage.  If you don't have enough money  on hand to buy a house and have a family, there is value in putting your family in a permanent home that you can do what you want there.  That's why most people choose to get a mortgage, not just based on numbers.

You have a very simple and straightforward statement on this and I do agree with you. Not many people have the capability also to turn their money into something profitable before they purchase their home. Many are resorting to this option, because they want at least a lil bit of security for their family. Even if they are paying monthly mortgage, the feeling of security to have a home to go to is priceless. You can't equate that with the proposed numbers because don't expect that people can always make their initial investments into high profitable ones.

I was also having the same thought right now, but then everyone can have their own opinion on things like this. I wouldn’t say that the both of you are right nor wrong, it all depends on the way you view it. Before taking a mortgage, one should look at the advantages of taking a mortgage and the disadvantages. If after you have weighed all these and you feel that it would be right for you to go ahead and start taking a mortgage, then it’s alright.

But, if you feel it is not for you, then you can go with an option that is totally different. Mortgage seems like an affordable way to own a home, and it is also a cost-effective way of borrowing, but then you will have to watch out for the fees that comes with it. And then as for investing in Bitcoin, you should know there are risks involved as well, and stock market wouldn’t fetch as much profit as the cryptocurrency market.

I agree.

It's not always that we can conclude that buying or mortgaging is a bad decision. You don't know someone's financial status and situation until you know them personally.

What if mortgaging is way lighter than purchasing using the whole amount. Well, some people I know does that mortgage and makes money from it despite it's not allowed to do so until they pay in full.

Agree with this point! Mortgage isnt bad as long you do know that you could really able to pay those monthly dues that you would have and its true that there are people who do find it as the lightest way

on acquiring something via means of this method since they are not able to pay it on full or still have some priorities but still considering on getting mortgages.yes, this could really be a heavy burden for

a specific period of time but its still a good investment since those things or properties you could still sell off if you do decide on doing such thing.

Yes, exactly. Everyone needs somewhere to live. You can either pay rent each month, and end up with nothing at the end of it, or you can pay a mortgage each month, and end up with a house. Given that mortgage costs less than rent, then so long as you can afford the deposit, there's no logical reason to rent. If for some reason you want to go back to renting five years down the line, then sell the house, and you have profit from whatever you paid off.

If you want spare money to invest in crypto, then surely it's better to wait for the house price to increase slightly, then take out more money on top of your mortgage, based on the fact that your asset is now worth more than when you bought it.

I've been seeing discouraging quotes and messages on different social media about taking a mortgage and they're telling it's not an investment.

Well, as you're paying the mortgage it couldn't really be an investment at the moment because you're in debt. But once you pay it in full, you can do whatever you want with it, or basically, even you're still in the turn of paying it, you can have it rent since it's in your possession as long as there won't be any rule to be broken upon doing so.

A comfortable house to live in is an investment and they don't see that point.

The OP should google Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and understand it before he starts giving any more financial advice.

I could say its still a form somewhat an investment specially if you are buying a house or properties just like on what stomachgrowls said which it is partly a reality because you could sell it on if you do able to pay it in full term but if not then it would be a total disaster because it would really be just ending up on their hands and the money you had put on would only such come to waste thats why it is really better to make sure
that you could pay up those mortgage before making one because it would really be a big headache if you didnt able to finish it off.

This is like having a  chain on your neck and once you dont able to make things right or in order then you would really suffer out the bad effects of it.

It is a bit of a different situation for different people. If you do not have enough, like let's say there is a house for 300k, and you have 100k, and your income is barely enough to pay the mortgage and live, then getting a 20 year loan if you can with a good interest would allow you to actually make a great profit.

Imagine paying 200k and getting 800k loan, you would pay back something like 1.2 to 1.5 million based on your credit score, whereas you could make at least 20% profit each year with that 800k instead of paying the house full, so it is really not based on how much you have. On the other hand, if you are a famous person, who gets millions of dollars a year for sure, like you are some sports guy with 20+ million dollars a year salary at the very least, buying a house doesn't make sense, just rent a super castle type of mansion and pay like 50k per month on that, makes more sense than spending 50 million on a house.

Also the rent (at least by me) market is insane.  Some areas you can't even find a place to rent.  And at a certain equilibrium price it's much better to take out a mortgage versus renting.  In my particular situation it is actually cheaper in mortgage than it would be in rent for an equivalent property.  And with a family if the person I'm renting from doesn't renew my lease I would have to pick everything up and move over and over.  *there's no place like home* is a real thing. But again to each there own.

I would say buying a luxury car you can't afford is the worst financial decision you can make, at least properties generally appreciate in value whereas cars diminish until they are scrap.