Bitcoin Forum

Canadian truckers are protesting the vaccine mandate. There are supporters, and people who are against the protests, that’s another debate. But GoFundMe is currently “reviewing” the fund raising campaign to possibly censor it later. If only there was a censorship-resistant currency that Canadians can use for that fund raising campaign. 8)

I don't disagree with your statement, but it's like comparing apples with oranges. Bitcoin is cryptocurrency while GoFundMe is crowdfunding platform. They could suffer from similar fate as long as they rely on centralized service (e.g. BitPay).

I've seen people raising funds by simply posting their bank details to get money sent there. That's already not Bitcoin. I know that the bank can also do nasty things, but I think that you understand my point.

On the other hand, a Bitcoin platform similar to GoFundMe may use a custodial wallet for collecting the funds and have the power to review/seize those funds. (Of course, also an address can be posted for collecting donations.)

So "bitcoin literally fixes this" is pretty much incorrect also in my opinion.

Definitely not literally fixing it, but it's a viable loophole solution. It's going to be smart for them to try to raise funds through BTC though, because as far as I know, there's a good overlap between bitcoiners and people who are really against the vaccine mandates and lockdowns.

it may stop the funding site from 'freezing' a payout by not requiring a funding site to collect payment, when just displaying a random persons bitcoin address

but if an organisation chose Trucker Joe Briggs to present his personal bitcoin address.. joe briggs can also decide he wont pay out, and instead retire to cuba with a lifetimes worth of money.

usually organisations want other publicly liable organisations to be custodians. to ensure no one just runs off with funds
this then requires public disclosure of the person accepting donations. by which authorities can then still make a request on that person to not pay out until authorities have investigated the funds.

yes people can just present their personal payment details to each other. but that requires trusting them.
its why gofundme works because they have policies to ensure the payout is genuinely used for its advertised purpose.  far more than just trusting some random person.

so its no different than accepting fiat or bitcoin. in many ways. yea someone can reveal their fiat debit card and ask people to 'top-up' their debit card. or they can use an organisation that vets charities.. bitcoin however does not have a good vetting system

so pro's and cons on both sides

The example above is not good for inferring the importance of decentralization in our lives. You can find better examples that do not include exposing people to danger directly or indirectly.
GoFundMe website is central and they have terms of use. When you exceed these conditions, the funding will be frozen or even stopped, and therefore the funds will be frozen.

Liberty has much better examples to discuss.

Because Trucker Joe briggs BTC address is not an option I think Gofundme version for BTC would be a good project to develop for unstoppable funding like this. The funds would help theb group to organize what they would do next but they are shutdown by Gofundme itself.

Too bad no one can be trusted anymore even the platform thats suppose.to be independent.

Who’s comparing apples and oranges? Bitcoin can literally fix their problem without any reliance in a centralized third party. Let’s compare apples to apples, Bitcoin fixed Heroine dealers’ problem by giving them a medium of exchange to use without fear of censorship.

Bitcoin fixes part of the problem not all of it, it removes the need for third parties and prevents them from putting their hands in your pocket easily and without your permission, otherwise it doesn't eliminate the fact that these centralized authorities can still force anyone to answer to them and they can even force them to give up all the funds they received by intimidation, etc.

I don't know if there is a crypto service like GoFundMe, specifically designed for that purpose, but if there isn't, there should be. But then again, GoFundMe is not the only option in situations like this, hell, there is no reason to even go with the third-party route when the truckers themselves could have established a donation website / designated place where they control what goes on with the funds as a collective. Adding BTC to the mix doesn't really make things easier, and crypto really is not a fix as it comes with it's own set of issues, it's just an alternative in a lot of situations. What it's not, nor it it will ever be is a be all end all solution to everything that has been plaguing our society.

Are you suggesting that the Canadian government will use intimidation to force a group of truckers to give up the keys from a donation wallet? I believe that would be a first.

Plus don’t Bitcoin mixers/tumblers, CoinJoin, and multisig literally fix that problem too?

You cannot possibly expect bitcoins to solve this issue once and for all. At the end of the day even if they start the funding campaign using Bitcoins there are still certain things that might go wrong :
1. Government will think about bitcoins as a source to overthrow their rules and regulations and make them stricter
2. Most wallets require KYC and are also related to your bank accounts so they can get frozen up as well.

At the same time there are other things as well :
If it's a good idea to do this protest or no. What's more important ? The pandemic going for another 1000 years or what ?

Then come the moral and ethical dilemma of using a neutral currency for a state like Canada, might end up bad as well.

Bitcoins definately fixes some of the problem but is it really a good idea to use it here ?

I don't trust crowdfunding, most of the money that's donated in those platforms aren't going to go to the causes and crowdfunding websites are full of scammers wanting a quick buck so I have lost my faith in it a long time ago. The only problem with them using bitcoin as a donation is that the people that they're going to pay with it might not accept it but you're right that bitcoin can easily fix this problem.

I believe you truly do not understand what Bitcoin was designed to do. It’s no mere bank account that grows your wealth. Plus what’s the use of decentralization, POW, censorship-resistance, the inefficiency if you believe it shouldn’t be used as it SHOULD be used?

But it will not be according to me. Censorship by centralized services will force people to censorship-resistant alternatives like Bitcoin.


That’s a problem, but not an unsolvable problem. How does everyone convert their coins to fiat? How do some thieves convert their stolen coins to fiat?

What exactly surprised you? That the aggression (intimidation, coercion, etc) against others is arguably the only way to deprive people of cryptographically-secure currency or that the government can perform aggression against others to take away someone's money? As for the former part, the only non-aggressive method of confiscating money that I can think of is to generate accidentally a private key or seed that has already been funded by a previous owner, which is practically infeasible but still probable. As for the latter part... Do you know any non-aggressive methods governments use to acquire money to fund their needs? Please, name a few... That governments have been employing for thousands of years different coercive methods to acquire wealth shouldn't come as a surprise. Coercion, intimidation, aggression is the only possible means with which an entity that produces nothing can finance their endeavors. It even doesn't matter what currency we are talking of: if the government wants your money, they will find a way to take it away from you since the mere existence of the government solely depends on it.

I'm not a vaccine opposer, and given that the anti-vaccination movement isn't huge in Canada (it's much bigger in my country), I think that GoFundMe is simply blocking the funds because of not liking the cause. And if anti-vaccination movement focuses on getting funds in Bitcoin, it will show that Bitcoin can't be censored similarly (at least, not if it's just a Bitcoin address posted directly), but it will also be a blow to Bitcoin's reputation given that vaccines are widely accepted and supported in developed countries. Also, they'd probably get way less money this way because:

• most people still don't use Bitcoin
• those who use Bitcoin know how popular Bitcoin scams are and would be wary of donating Bitcoin
• there still remains a problem of using this money which might require selling of fiat, and at that point the censorship can return

You can’t even argue about vaccination, but in Russia a certificate costs $100, in Europe it’s $200, is it really a problem in Canada? Just the sellers of these certificates accept bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies so that you do not pay unknown people from your bank card.

Bitcoin is a payment network, GoFundMe is a crowdfunding platform. You can't organize a fund raiser with Bitcoin network alone. If those people just posted their BTC address on social media, they would gather only a tiny fraction of what they would get with GoFundMe. To compete with GoFundMe, there should be a crypto-based platform, but it's not going to succeed now, because the general population is not using crypto, and few people would bother setting up exchange accounts, passing KYC, paying ridiculous exchange fees, all to donate $5 worth of BTC to someone.

Isn't this more of a problem with a centralized fund raising platform than a problem about currency? If, for example, the Freedom Convoy 2020 campaign would ditch GoFundMe and would instead solicit funds by secretly reaching out to select individuals, groups, and institutions, would that not sufficiently address this problem?

Could cash, for example, be censored? What if the group would completely do away with banks and other centralized platforms? Wouldn't that be enough for their funds to avoid getting frozen?

Not sure how bitcoins would fix gofundme campaigns, bitcoin is a currency whereas gofundme is a website where people can ask for money from strangers. It might feel like censorship if the admins take down a campaign, but the company has set out a certain rules to avoid misuse and scammers. Bitcoins could help to setup something similar where the campaign manager has more flexibility and doesn't need to worry about being cancelled. The problem here would then be to make sure no fraudulent campaign is being run on the website. It is just to easy that when you hear about a big tragedy on TV to go and create a campaign for the victims, but who is going to check and verify that you are actually helping the victims with the money and don't pocket it yourself. Bitcoins has a lot of good features, anonymity is usually a good one. In the case of collecting money from strangers it 's probably not so helpful.

I don't know the Canadian laws and that doesn't matter because what I do know is that laws can be and have been bent by the governments whenever it suits them. For example all it takes is using certain keywords like "national security" and it simply overrides everything else.

OK, are you saying that the government can force ANYONE to give their keys? Or that we should merely comply? What then is the point of Bitcoin as a protocol? Of Proof of Work? Of decentralization? Do you believe that everyone should merely be HODLing Bitcoin only for the purpose of Store of Value/wealth?

Bitcoin has never had a better debate to exist for years until the entire world saw GoFundMe confiscate the people’s money.

The point is that when you use bitcoin the government and other corrupt entities such as banks or GoFundMe no longer have their hand in your pocket. So they can't just take your money freely and whenever they wished to. Now with bitcoin they have to force their hand in your pocket violently which is a lot harder and complicated.

For example in case of fundraising for Canadian truckers if someone raises funds through bitcoin (and apparently someone did according to this topic (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5384675.0)) all it takes is for Canadian government to raid the homes of those who hold the keys (as they are known already) and arrests them for any reason they like such as money laundering, terrorist financing, ... and they can easily force them to give up their private keys (ie their money).

The problem is with the underlying dictatorship in the west and that is not something bitcoin can solve. Hence my initial statement that "bitcoin fixes part of the problem".

That’s another debate, and almost a nitpick to the point of this topic. It’s actually a debate on a user’s operations security, and how he/she uses Bitcoin for a potentially problematic matter legally. Because users can always have better security through the use of services like ChipMixer for example. They can mix the donations there, and to be sent to another wallet the original holders don’t control. Or the wallet is controlled be someone outside of Canada.

+1
Hence the popularity of Bitcoin escrow companies in past fundraising eras (ICO is such a bad word now) and the continued popularity of escrow services on this forum -- Bitcoin itself doesn't solve the trust issue of crowdfunding.

Am still curious to see if Bitcoin will further develop smart contract capabilities for such a simple case (escrow). I know it has to be possible, as it has been discussed before. Just always wondered why it's not an in-demand utility.

Remember what happened with this Bitcoin charity (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5376475.0) fundraise.

Let’s take them separately because any such comparisons would only lead to confusion.

It doesn’t change the fact that Bitcoin is STILL a censorship-resistant, self-sovereign cryptocurrency, which is the point. That it STILL can’t be controlled by the banks and the government. You are merely debating about operations security, which is entirely another discussion.

I don't disagree about Bitcoin or these points about Bitcoin. I don't think anyone who's commented does.

I just don't see how it literally fixes the problem. If GoFundMe accepts only Bitcoin today, it literally doesn't fix the problem.

I think as others have pointed out, this isn't a problem of currency that needs fixing, it's a problem of method of crowdfunding. In the example I showed, some guys used Bitcoin to crowdfundraise on this forum -- it didnd't make that campaign censorship-free. Again, the method matters, not the currency.

But Bitcoin does fix the problem. Bitcoin is not controlled by a centralized entity. The state can’t tell anyone to stop donating to the truckers, nor can the state stop the protocol from functioning. The Honey Badger don’t care.


That’s another debate/discussion.


Bitcoin is not merely a “currency”, it’s a protocol that provides something for people that need a protocol for value-transfer that’s not controled by banks.

Bitcoin fixed Mr. Heroine Dealer’s need for a medium of exchange in the dark markets, the Canadian Truckers also found a need for Bitcoin. If GoFundMe didn’t censor them and steal their money, do you believe they would have found the “Bitcoin-need”?

The real problem here is that the protesters are asking for funding.
I have nothing against their protest.This is their civil right,but saying something like "give us money,so we could protest" is kinda weird to me.If you really want to protest,you could protest without asking for donations.
Anyway,having a centralized entity,that can redistribute all the funding to the people,who need that money is a must(unfortunately). That's why charity foundations exist.
It's theoretically possible for all protesters to just gather a huge list of their own BTC addresses and post them online to collect donations,but what's the guarantee that some fraudster won't add his address to the list?
Charity is always about trust,it's not about the money.
Trust is still required,even if Bitcoin replaces fiat money in these charity campaigns.

What’s wrong in asking for support? Are truckers scamming people? Did they get the money without doing anything? Is this illegal?


That’s another debate, but the point in using Bitcoin is because the government and the banksters have no control over Bitcoin, and therefore can’t simply lock and take the money from the truckers.

"bitcoin" the protocol/blockchain is not controlled by central entity
its not actually that easy for the government to just say "tomorrow, we stop the dollar(entire economy)"
much like your saying government "cant stop bitcoin(entire protocol)"

but then again gofundme does not control the entire FIAT economy. but does control a small subset amount of fiat put into its control.

much like the bitcoin 'fundraisers' dont control the whole protocol. but do control a subset amount of bitcoin

a government 'could' find that organisation and tell them to stop. whether its fiat or bitcoin(hand cuffs exist in the real world)

this is why the 'organisation' doing the bitcoin fundraiser moved the funds out of their control late in the day of the 14th. and is now said to be in the hands of an 'unknown group of trustees' because they realised that upto valentines day, the bitcoin fundraising organisation realised they were a central point of failure due to being publicly known.
yep during the fundraising campaign. the government could have done something with a simple knock at their doors and some handcuffs

dont confuse the censorship resistance of entire protocol, vs the semi-censorship resistance pseudonymous natures of allotments of coins.
after all. the bitfinex thieves got caught. silkroad got caught, mtgox ceo got in trouble,
bitcoin is not 100% unreachable by government. its just a better distance of reach than fiat is

and even now the 3 main organisers who are publicly known can be court ordered to reveal identities of the new trustees or be penalised(should government take that direction)
bitcoin does help. but its not a 100% barrier against government intervention. hand cuffs are real if you leave ID traces

as for the small subset of an amount of a currency
its not easy for government to confiscate bank notes hidden under the bed, they first have know you, knwo where you live, to break your door in, and then see dollar bills hanging out the edge of the bed/do a detailed search flipping the bed over
but then they can break your door in and just happen to see a bitcoin wallet displayed on your screen/do a detailed hard drive search

knowing an organiser. and knowing they are doing something the gov dont like the gov can court order that person/organisation(whether bitcoin or fiat)

in bitcoin there is no need to associate ID to a bitcoin address. but then its personal judgement of how much people trust someones involvement without knowing their name

much like many fiat kickstarters and gofundme, you have to trust the narrative of the plea story
many get scammed by fake campaigns in fiat.
dollar by default does not test KYC. it relies on businesses to set policy for the business to check if people using their business are real names
EG i can set up a paypal account with a fake email. and move dollar
but i cant find that many bitcoin custodian services that dont KYC anymore.. because the BUSINESS has set policy

if the bitcoin fundraiser organisation has publicly known names. the government can court order that organisation, with penalty if they refuse
bitcoin is only as good as the anonymity people keep, by avoiding using central organisations/businesses. but then that comes to then trusting unknown recipients

its why bitcoin is classed as pseudonymous rather than anonymous

This message is for everyone, especially newbies. There are anti-Bitcoin trolls in the forum who will make long posts, debating other people by using strawmen, disinformation, and gaslighting. The fact is, Bitcoin is a solution to the problem that if banks refuse giving you their service, you can use Bitcoin. There’s a need that Bitcoin fills. If the truckers can’t accept donations through centralized services, then what’s the next most efficient way to accept them without fear of being censored? Bitcoin is one of them. FACT.

I do not agree with your statement, it depends entirely on their foundation. Bitcoin is the cryptocurrency while GoFundMe is the crowdfunding platform. It remains specific to them. As long as they rely on the concentrated (bitPay) they can be victims of the same fate. Their issues are completely different.


You are absolutely right. From now on, newcomers need to be aware. If we do not all need to be aware of this, then we ourselves are going to be confused. Thank you so much for highlighting this precious word.