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Title: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: RoxxR on March 17, 2022, 09:39:01 AM Usually people want their transactions to confirm as fast as possible, but I was wondering, are there ways of making a transaction slower to confirm? Like taking 10 blocks or more to confirm?
I can only think of one obvious way, paying a very low fee. Obviously this would only work when the network is congested. Can we think of any other ways? Also, it used to be possible to make zero-fee transactions. Is this still possible in 2022? Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: witcher_sense on March 17, 2022, 09:55:59 AM I can only think of one obvious way, paying a very low fee. Obviously this would only work when the network is congested. If you don't want your transaction to be included in a block right away, you simply don't broadcast it to the network and wait for as many blocks as you want.Can we think of any other ways? Also, it used to be possible to make zero-fee transactions. Is this still possible in 2022? You can manually construct a transaction even with negative fees. The question is will nodes or miners accept such a transaction?Also read this: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/91124/how-to-send-zero-fee-bitcoin-transaction Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: ABCbits on March 17, 2022, 12:20:43 PM Can we think of any other ways? Setup script to broadcast your transaction on specific time/date. Also, it used to be possible to make zero-fee transactions. Is this still possible in 2022? You can manually construct a transaction even with negative fees. The question is will nodes or miners accept such a transaction?Almost all nodes won't accept 0-fee transaction since it's default Bitcoin Core behavior. Miner might include it, but you need to find out how to make your transaction enter miner mempool. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: khaled0111 on March 17, 2022, 12:40:42 PM You can use either nLockTime or CheckLockTimeVerify opcode based on your needs.
Specifying an nLockTime value greater than the current block height will ensure your transaction will remain invalid and can't be mined till the block height become less than or equal to nLockTime. CLTV, on the other hand, is used to time-lock the output(s) of the transaction not the transaction itself. Meaning that your transaction can be confirmed but the receiver can't spend the outpu(s) before the specified block height. You can read more about TimeLocks here: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Timelock You can create a time locked address with coinb.in (https://coinb.in/#newTimeLocked) (do it offline) and the coins you send to the generated address will be locked until the block height/date condition is met. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: garlonicon on March 18, 2022, 05:39:16 AM Quote Also, it used to be possible to make zero-fee transactions. Is this still possible in 2022? You can make it in Bitcoin Core by using createrawtransaction. You can even send that to some nodes, if they have this setup in their bitcoin.conf:Code: minrelaytxfee=0.00000000 Quote You can manually construct a transaction even with negative fees. The question is will nodes or miners accept such a transaction? Do you mean using SIGHASH_SINGLE|SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY, where the output is higher than the input? Then yes, in this case someone can pay fees for you.Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: pooya87 on March 18, 2022, 06:16:30 AM Like taking 10 blocks or more to confirm? Another way of looking at your question is that you are asking for a way to put an additional and unnecessary burden on other nodes.A transaction that is not going to be mined for n number of blocks is going to cost the node that holds it in its mempool. It takes up space in the memory and also consumes bandwidth when they have to relay it to other nodes which is increased with n. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: PrimeNumber7 on March 18, 2022, 09:36:48 AM Also, it used to be possible to make zero-fee transactions. Is this still possible in 2022? You can manually construct a transaction even with negative fees. The question is will nodes or miners accept such a transaction?Almost all nodes won't accept 0-fee transaction since it's default Bitcoin Core behavior. Miner might include it, but you need to find out how to make your transaction enter miner mempool. To answer the OP's question directly, the only correct answer is to use nLockTime to make the transaction invalid until x blocks in the future. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: vjudeu on March 18, 2022, 10:11:14 AM Quote No economically rational miner is going to accept a negative fee transaction. A negative fee transaction is invalid, unless it uses some sighashes, where it is possible to make it valid by adding some inputs. But even then, you probably need to recompile your client to reach that. Or you could have some proxy that would capture invalid transactions and store some of them, but probably doing changes in Bitcoin Core and making a custom version that would store more transactions would be easier.Quote the only correct answer is to use nLockTime to make the transaction invalid until x blocks in the future It could be also possible to add some difficulty to the transaction, if some opcodes like OP_CAT or OP_SUBSTR would be re-enabled in TapScript.Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: PrimeNumber7 on March 19, 2022, 11:38:45 PM Quote No economically rational miner is going to accept a negative fee transaction. A negative fee transaction is invalid, unless it uses some sighashes, where it is possible to make it valid by adding some inputs. But even then, you probably need to recompile your client to reach that. Or you could have some proxy that would capture invalid transactions and store some of them, but probably doing changes in Bitcoin Core and making a custom version that would store more transactions would be easier.Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: larry_vw_1955 on March 20, 2022, 01:18:24 AM The means of creating the transaction is irrelevant. The point is that you could create a tx with a negative fee (by modifying software the creates transactions), however that no miner is ever going to intentionally accept this transaction into their block. Doing so would not be rational. the miner would have to subsidize the transaction using their block reward or some other mechanism. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: pooya87 on March 20, 2022, 03:50:02 AM The means of creating the transaction is irrelevant. The point is that you could create a tx with a negative fee (by modifying software the creates transactions), however that no miner is ever going to intentionally accept this transaction into their block. Doing so would not be rational. You don't have to modify the software to sign a transaction with SIGHASH_SINGLE|SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY sighashtype flag. You just have to use the bitcoin core console since the UI doesn't have the option.https://bitcoincore.org/en/doc/22.0.0/rpc/rawtransactions/signrawtransactionwithkey/ Such a transaction could be seen as "not-finalized" so it shouldn't be propagated in first place. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: garlonicon on March 20, 2022, 08:01:19 AM Quote Such a transaction could be seen as "not-finalized" so it shouldn't be propagated in first place. It shouldn't be, but it technically can be, as long as it will not be placed in a block. And that could be useful in some protocols, like "sell this for 1 BTC". All that is needed is creating transaction, for example as "0.5 BTC -> 1.5 BTC" and sign it with such sighash. Then, the buyer could attach some input and accept the trade. By the way, this sighash has some nice properties:negative fee, "0.5 BTC -> 1.5 BTC": Sell something for 1 BTC. zero fee, "0.5 BTC -> 0.5 BTC": Move coins for free, so "you pay my fees" transaction. positive fee, "0.5 BTC -> 0 BTC (OP_RETURN?)": Donation to anyone (probably miner, unless combined with something else). Also, SIGHASH_SINGLE bug could be used in the last case, just to reduce transaction size and skip one output. Or maybe SIGHASH_NONE, it would be even better (unless there is some amount left, then SIGHASH_SINGLE would do the trick). Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: PrimeNumber7 on March 20, 2022, 12:28:34 PM The means of creating the transaction is irrelevant. The point is that you could create a tx with a negative fee (by modifying software the creates transactions), however that no miner is ever going to intentionally accept this transaction into their block. Doing so would not be rational. No miner is going to do this. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: garlonicon on March 20, 2022, 01:05:24 PM Quote If a transaction has more outputs than inputs (in terms of total value), the difference would come out of the block reward. The Bitcoin Core client in regtest says it is invalid:Code: generateblock "bcrt1qlaf0ku3nhu26mffln8kn2rhgjfaduda9azzlfa" "[\"02000000018fa4883cae979495c8a9c1e7e52e10127950cd3a56a6c5c6ad327db85690e9f20000000000fdffffff0100e40b540200000016001484756196d612a86b3be4ea34fff3158fe5576c7c00000000\"]" Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: martha1 on March 20, 2022, 01:17:13 PM Usually people want their transactions to confirm as fast as possible, but I was wondering, are there ways of making a transaction slower to confirm? Like taking 10 blocks or more to confirm? Your question doesn't make any sense,if you want your transaction to arrive at X date just send it at that X date why you're going through all this hassle just to make it slower.I can only think of one obvious way, paying a very low fee. Obviously this would only work when the network is congested. Can we think of any other ways? Also, it used to be possible to make zero-fee transactions. Is this still possible in 2022? Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: n0nce on March 21, 2022, 01:30:18 AM The means of creating the transaction is irrelevant. The point is that you could create a tx with a negative fee (by modifying software the creates transactions), however that no miner is ever going to intentionally accept this transaction into their block. Doing so would not be rational. Let's remember that mining fee is simply the difference between your inputs and outputs. Quote from: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fee The difference between the amount being spent and the amount being received is the transaction fee (which must be zero or more) If it is negative, it means your input sum is smaller than the output sum, basically creating coins out of thin air. A block mined with such a transaction inside it, would be rejected by any node. To subsidize such transactions, the miner would need to modify the transaction and add more inputs, because block checks should (correct me if I'm wrong) check all transactions on validity one-by-one. So even if on a block-level it were to canceled out by some extra 'subsidy transaction' from the miner, not all checks would pass.Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: Charles-Tim on March 21, 2022, 08:06:18 AM The means of creating the transaction is irrelevant. The point is that you could create a tx with a negative fee (by modifying software the creates transactions), however that no miner is ever going to intentionally accept this transaction into their block. Doing so would not be rational. Exactly. Creating the transaction will be highly irrelevant, miners are the ones that include transactions into block and they only accept transaction with incentives paid as fee, if a transaction is having a negative fee, then it means the person that make the transaction will be the one that will be paid fee while the payment can only be from miners. When miners are only encouraged by the fee, how would they include a transaction into a block in which they would be the one to lose (if provided there is a means miners can make the payment), definitely no miner will include such transaction in a block.Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: ABCbits on March 21, 2022, 12:25:22 PM Your question doesn't make any sense,if you want your transaction to arrive at X date just send it at that X date why you're going through all this hassle just to make it slower. While OP never state his intention, i can see why he ask such question. Some bank have feature "Scheduled Money Transfer" where customer just need to configure the schedule few times. It's more convenient than sending the money at specific time. To subsidize such transactions, the miner would need to modify the transaction and add more inputs, because block checks should (correct me if I'm wrong) check all transactions on validity one-by-one. Is it even possible to modify signed transaction? Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: n0nce on March 21, 2022, 12:35:50 PM Is it even possible to modify signed transaction? Yes, but you need have the signing key. I mean you could change the witness to modify the TXID, due the fact that in ECDSA you can easily calculate a second valid signature off of the original one, sure.But for adding more inputs, you're changing the body, so you do need to calculate a whole new signature of it, which requires the signing key and you basically double-spend the input. The transaction would need to be marked RBF though. So yes, very hypothetical scenario. It could happen e.g. that someone submits a transaction with negative fee and themselves, add a second input after noticing that it's faulty. To be clear, this isn't really modifying the signed transaction, it would be replacing it instead. And can't happen after it's mined as well, of course. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: garlonicon on March 21, 2022, 03:11:45 PM Quote While OP never state his intention, i can see why he ask such question. Some bank have feature "Scheduled Money Transfer" where customer just need to configure the schedule few times. It's more convenient than sending the money at specific time. Adding locktime and sending raw transaction to the recipient would do the trick. Also, it could be cancelled by double-spending the same coins without timelock, so that recipient's transaction will be invalidated.Quote Is it even possible to modify signed transaction? Yes, just use something else than SIGHASH_ALL. You don't have to sign everything, that's only the default option, but could be easily changed if needed.Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: pooya87 on March 22, 2022, 04:27:34 AM Some bank have feature "Scheduled Money Transfer" where customer just need to configure the schedule few times. It's more convenient than sending the money at specific time. In bitcoin we say "you are your own bank", so to achieve something like this feature it may be better to write a simple script on top of your node/wallet software that creates a new transaction, signs it and broadcasts it at fixed intervals with predefined conditions.This is also easier to cancel (it is local) compared to sending a valid tx with a future locktime that you'd have to double spend. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: witcher_sense on March 22, 2022, 07:04:51 AM So far we have been talking about how to solve this problem on the protocol or transactional level, but no one did mention the possibility of achieving exactly the same result using less-technical means, which is the capabilities of operating system in which a bitcoin wallet is installed. I was wondering if it was possible to schedule a bitcoin transaction and make it confirmed by the network or, at least, make it sent, at a specific point in time. I found the solution for this problem here: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/29574/how-to-schedule-a-bitcoin-transaction but can't confirm it actually works.
For Linux and macOS: Code: echo "bitcoind sendtoaddress <bitcoinaddress> <amount>" | at 07:00 or Code: sleep <number of seconds> && bitcoind sendtoaddress <bitcoinaddress> <amount> For Windows: Code: timeout <number of seconds> && bitcoind sendtoaddress <bitcoinaddress> <amount> If it works then it is possible to use Windows Task Scheduler or something similar for specifying more complex conditions. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: nc50lc on March 22, 2022, 10:29:55 AM For Windows: It will work as long as the command prompt is still open until the timeout runs out.Code: timeout <number of seconds> && bitcoind sendtoaddress <bitcoinaddress> <amount> Also, the command should be using bitcoin-cli since bitcoind doesn't support wallet RPC commands. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: seoincorporation on March 22, 2022, 10:41:48 PM The right way to avoid a confirmation in the next block is using low fees, this way the miners will give low priority to your transaction.
... Quote You can manually construct a transaction even with negative fees. The question is will nodes or miners accept such a transaction? Do you mean using SIGHASH_SINGLE|SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY, where the output is higher than the input? Then yes, in this case someone can pay fees for you.I don't think the core will allow us to spend more coins than the inputs, it should print an error. As we know, when we build a transaction we don't set the fees, we only set the amount to send and the rest will go to the fees. That's why I don't think negative fees transactions are possible, but I haven't tried, so, maybe I'm wrong. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: vjudeu on March 23, 2022, 08:08:07 AM Quote I don't think the core will allow us to spend more coins than the inputs, it should print an error. It will be "incomplete", but not "invalid". If included directly into a block, that block will be invalid. But if someone will receive raw transaction, then that person could add more coins as inputs and make it valid, without changing previous signatures.Quote As we know, when we build a transaction we don't set the fees, we only set the amount to send and the rest will go to the fees. That's why I don't think negative fees transactions are possible, but I haven't tried, so, maybe I'm wrong. Yes, "negative fees" is just some kind of shortcut. Fees are always non-negative, the only thing that can be changed is who will pay them. That means, it is possible to create "recipient pay fees" transaction, instead of typical "sender pay fees".Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: n0nce on March 23, 2022, 11:58:52 AM Quote I don't think the core will allow us to spend more coins than the inputs, it should print an error. It will be "incomplete", but not "invalid". If included directly into a block, that block will be invalid. But if someone will receive raw transaction, then that person could add more coins as inputs and make it valid, without changing previous signatures.Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: vjudeu on March 23, 2022, 12:28:20 PM Quote Can you just add more inputs to the transactions and more witnesses spending those extra inputs? I'm not sure right now to be honest. I doubt it though. Yes, of course you can. Just use different SIGHASH than SIGHASH_ALL. Many people don't believe such things are possible, so maybe I should create some transaction in testnet to demonstrate that.Code: 0200000000010157c810eb18266e2a09e6f244c38f00731f6c1a29765dc3d1fd5142477101b2660100000000fdffffff01a0860100000000001600145df5785bcc56cd3079a798a9bdbbf45dd3217c000247304402204d6b7bfffbe03b4e17aa08ce42ac12aff30a8f68dd58d19b6b3a9be9535ab328022058de9a2b17369dc326c289728ebf9a27df1c41e43feb81c9c6ca627544bfc0c3832102f37ddcc9aa8bec6ab201519e2d4de3d9ad2e99a566cf0b2232351ea6ac1f984400000000 Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: seoincorporation on March 23, 2022, 04:38:17 PM ... Yes, of course you can. Just use different SIGHASH than SIGHASH_ALL. Many people don't believe such things are possible, so maybe I should create some transaction in testnet to demonstrate that. Code: 0200000000010157c810eb18266e2a09e6f244c38f00731f6c1a29765dc3d1fd5142477101b2660100000000fdffffff01a0860100000000001600145df5785bcc56cd3079a798a9bdbbf45dd3217c000247304402204d6b7bfffbe03b4e17aa08ce42ac12aff30a8f68dd58d19b6b3a9be9535ab328022058de9a2b17369dc326c289728ebf9a27df1c41e43feb81c9c6ca627544bfc0c3832102f37ddcc9aa8bec6ab201519e2d4de3d9ad2e99a566cf0b2232351ea6ac1f984400000000 I just decoded the transaction you posted, this will help to the users to understand it better ;) Code: {And you are right, the inputs are smaller than the outputs. And this is possible while we create the transaction, but when we try to push the transaction we will get an error on the network as you can see in the next image: Error validating transaction: Sum of inputs 74000 lesser than outputs 100000. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: garlonicon on March 23, 2022, 04:56:41 PM Quote but when we try to push the transaction we will get an error on the network as you can see in the next image Of course, because it is a "negative fee" transaction. So, if you want to broadcast it to the network, then you need to add your own coins, then vjudeu will get your coins for free and you will pay his fees :)Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: n0nce on March 23, 2022, 06:11:26 PM Quote Can you just add more inputs to the transactions and more witnesses spending those extra inputs? I'm not sure right now to be honest. I doubt it though. Yes, of course you can. Just use different SIGHASH than SIGHASH_ALL. Many people don't believe such things are possible, so maybe I should create some transaction in testnet to demonstrate that.Code: 0200000000010157c810eb18266e2a09e6f244c38f00731f6c1a29765dc3d1fd5142477101b2660100000000fdffffff01a0860100000000001600145df5785bcc56cd3079a798a9bdbbf45dd3217c000247304402204d6b7bfffbe03b4e17aa08ce42ac12aff30a8f68dd58d19b6b3a9be9535ab328022058de9a2b17369dc326c289728ebf9a27df1c41e43feb81c9c6ca627544bfc0c3832102f37ddcc9aa8bec6ab201519e2d4de3d9ad2e99a566cf0b2232351ea6ac1f984400000000 However, if you try to broadcast it through the gossip protocol, it would be dropped by any receiving node's mempool, except if they have some custom code that doesn't drop it and instead adds another input so it can be further forwarded towards a miner, I suppose. Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: garlonicon on March 23, 2022, 06:17:32 PM Quote However, if you try to broadcast it through the gossip protocol, it would be dropped by any receiving node's mempool, except if they have some custom code that doesn't drop it and instead adds another input so it can be further forwarded towards a miner, I suppose. Quote But even then, you probably need to recompile your client to reach that. Or you could have some proxy that would capture invalid transactions and store some of them, but probably doing changes in Bitcoin Core and making a custom version that would store more transactions would be easier. Exactly, it is true and you understand it correctly. I think everything was said, it is just a matter of reading some posts again. And maybe sharing a public key with vjudeu if you want to see that in practice (without losing any coins).Edit: I wonder if people can combine transactions. Let's see: Code: 0200000000010257c810eb18266e2a09e6f244c38f00731f6c1a29765dc3d1fd5142477101b2660100000000fdffffff8000da95a1986e5ebfe15fbf5fcc70864e12504fb87134a5f53fcc9ee461467c0000000000fdffffff01a0860100000000001600145df5785bcc56cd3079a798a9bdbbf45dd3217c00000247304402204482191bb6555308d065a8c7b9c24e617ee2e6202037c61a5a84f9b799e969ee0220456acaa25d8e794d7eca73be19980fa571e4a432b329b2c8183dbb9589b2d965012102fad16ad186269aa4caf89f19f690801b6f3fec89d04e1c4a40253f60e22eb87440d10c00 Title: Re: Intentionally make a transaction slower Post by: coinlatte on May 02, 2022, 07:04:04 PM Quote For now, it is locked, just to stick to the topic and make it really slow. But you can reply with your multisig, then I could make it faster, to form a complete example. I think vjudeu waited long enough, here you are: 495d2007ae8b741c70c3d278c02ce03702223b9675e954ecabbb634c6cd5bf40. As everyone can see, vjudeu's signature is exactly the same, that means I could just copy-pasted it, without asking for re-signing. |
