Bitcoin Forum

Yesterday, my mom did a general cleaning on my room and when she's done, I saw the recovery phrase of my Trezor hardware wallet on the garbage can which I placed on my computer table, I also have that same copy on my wallet but still can't stop myself to tremble in fear to lose that piece of paper. I didn't told her about it to avoid more argument because she wouldn't still understand what it is. This is what I've been scared about when people say to write your recovery phrases on a piece of paper instead of storing it online.

I would like to know how others keep these secret phrases if the people in your house are not really knowledgeable in crypto. Would it be safe if I store it online but the file is encrypted and password protected?

When you bought your Trezor, how many papers were provided for backup? Three right? You can have three backups in three different locations.

Online backup is not a good idea

Hackers steal $655K after picking MetaMask seed from iCloud backup (https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/hackers-steal-655k-after-picking-metamask-seed-from-icloud-backup/)

You have offline wallet but you have your seed phrase online, that makes it an online wallet, and that makes it less secure.

A simple piece of paper? Are you serious? I understand your mother. An ordinary sheet with incomprehensible words for her. It feels like something childish.

OP, your account is from 2016. How many of these pieces of paper do you keep on your desk? Your question is too banal for your account. Do you have a wallet but don't know how best to save your seed phrase?

What about flash memory, engraving your seed phrase on metal, eventually laminating your paper, and storing it all in several versions away from mom's eyes?

Online or offline, it will have risk to expose with hackers or bad people. By storing your backup offline, you reduce the risk. If you store if online, you increase the risk and do you think your security is good enough for backup file. I doubt that it is not good enough.

You told that you left your paper backup on computer table. That is very bad practice. So not onky your mom but others who can access your table will be able to find it. You must store it safely from water, fire and oublic eyes. That means you must store it somewhere very privately and secretly.

For starters you shouldn't place such an important piece of paper on a table for anybody who comes to your room to see. Try placing it inside a book or better yet write it inside a book and place that in your bookshelf. That way it won't be randomly seen any other people.
For extra security you can always encrypt the words with an open source tool using AES256 and a strong password that you should also create a backup of.

Not at all.

Lol. First, start cleaning up your own room! If you're old enough to be on Bitcointalk (for 6 years already), you shouldn't need your mom to clean up after you. Second: don't leave recovery phrases laying around for anyone to find! If you insist on keeping it close to your table for anyone to see, at least tape it under it so it can't easily get lost.

Maybe. Maybe not. But are you willing to risk it? The point of using a hardware wallet is to be absolutely sure nobody can gain access to your funds. If you keep a backup online, you can never be sure.

As far away as possible from the eyes of the people in your house, even if you live alone, leaving a piece of paper containing the key to your funds is careless, what if visitors come, and if we take you to be a complete loner with no friends or acquaintances and no possibility of visitors, what about visitors that need no invitation, now i'm talking about robbers, burglars, they might just target you only to take a few dollars from you, without even knowing you own a satoshi, then they hit a jackpot and find your seed phrase on your table for the taking.

A piece of paper is not bad, a book or booklet is much better though, or you keep the piece of paper somewhere it can't be found or damaged, and only you know where that is in your home.

TL,DR Just keep it to you only, and never online.

I bought their latest model Trezor T last year and it only provided me 2 papers for backup.


It's only one piece of paper from Trezor T. It doesn't contain all my crypto assets there.

Are USB or flash drive considered flash memory? I'm also using it as a form of backup to my other wallets. Is it safe to use those even if you connect it to your computer which is connected online? Engraving it on a metal will just be the same to my mother, if she sees it somewhere in our house then she could throw it away because she doesn't have any idea what it is.



My mom is a meticulous person. Even if I cleaned it myself, she would still clean it thinking that there are still some stuffs that are unfixed.

It's not really on my table which can be seen by anyone. I placed it under my mousepad where no one would think something important is beneath there.

If your mum can do all of that, best thing's to educate her a bit about bitcoin, you'll achieve two things that way, your backup's are safe, and she becomes your new student in bitcoin matters.

USB or flash drive can be corrupted, also if you connect it to an online computer, it's really not safe since you're increase the chance of getting malware, virus etc that would access your private key. Even adding extra security by compressing the file and using password didn't help, a hacker can easily find the vulnerability.

Is your mom is a kind of person who doesn't care with their kids privacy? If it's okay to tell your mom, you can explain to her about Bitcoin etc. If you're not okay for your mom to know Bitcoin, you can give a threat to her like "I will be mad or wouldn't listen to you again if you disturb my privacy"

Depends on you. You should tell your mom stop doing this. I know what moms usually want to do and they always think you are kids. You must be too determined with it and you can reduce workload for your mom.

I have a brother who is 27 years old and let my mom takes care of him like a kid. I am speechless because it is unnecessary. If my brother loves his mom, he should do something to stop it but he does not. I think it is unacceptable and I am in conflict with him about that. She did it for me in the past but I rejected it and released her from such unnecessary things. Unfortunately my brother does not release her.

It is not safe. If anyone want to find something with bad intention, they will lift most of things on your table including the mousepad.

If it was "hidden" so insecurely that someone found it when simply cleaning, then it would easily found by any attacker. You need to find a better place to secure it where it won't be easily found.

Nope.

I have many seed phrases which are simply written on a simple, unlaminated piece of paper. It is a perfectly acceptable solution if you have proper redundancy in your back ups.

Yes, they are flash memory. They have a limited life span and are easily damaged.

No. It is also not safe to use them if you connect them to an offline computer which then goes back online later. They should only be used on a permanently airgapped computer.

There are a few things I would mention.  Flash memory is only good for short to mid term storage due to its life expectancy.  By engraving I hope you mean the DIY version where you buy those metal blocks with letters and use a hammer to print them into a piece of metal, because engraving typically means nowadays laser engraving and that is definitely not what I would consider safe.  And last but not least, laminating should be done at home with your own equipment.  Never take your seed to a shop for engraving or laminating because at that point it becomes compromised.

I can tell you something more likely to happen than a robbery or visitors checking out your piece of paper and understanding what it means.

Kids.  OP can be gone for 2 hours and their mother could have a family visiting and the kid somehow gets to draw all kinds of stuff and mess up with the paper.  There goes the most innocent act out of everything you have mentioned, yet one of the possibly most destructive.

I am in full disagreement.  I think storing it in a book is one of the worst things you can do because so many people do it and I think it is even one of the basic targets of a robbery.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

mine just simply write it in a notebook and place it randomly on my book shelf. Writing in piece of paper is indeed a safe way to keep our seedphrase safe but have to make it laminated but ofcourse you have to duplicate it just in case the other copy might lost.

There is no doubt that you made a mistake in leaving something so important and sensitive in such a visible place, but now I guess you have learned something from all that. If you have stored your HW safely, then treat your backup in the same way - because imagine a situation in which your HW breaks down, and then you discover that your mother threw the backup in the trash - unlike that character who is looking for his HDD in some junkyard, you wouldn't have any chance of finding an ordinary piece of paper.


The problem is not that you use paper for backup, but in how you will store that paper. Physical storage, whether it's paper, plastic or metal, has its drawbacks, but you're sure that you won't be hacked by a hacker because you saved your backup as plain text on your computer, or you save it in the cloud or e-mail. However, everyone who has a physical backup should know that one backup is not enough, as well as that 5 backups in the same location do not make sense if that location is threatened by fire, flood, or earthquake.

You don't need to complicate things as some do, so after x years some don't know why the backup doesn't work, whether the words are mixed up or maybe there is additional protection in the form of a passphrase. Make it simple but effective.

Has for me this phrase is very important just has your funds you lose them you lose your funds so in this case I got a dairy with a lock  and all my recovery phrase and my password words are writing there  not only for safe keeping but also no body knows what going to happen tomorrow incase there is any challenge or rather death my family can also have access to my funds.

USB is good for a backup "at hand", but you have to think that an USB stick breaks too easy. Paper is still best.
(Also you have to create the txt file directly on the USB, offline, then archive/password protect it, and all this ideally from a live OS).


You have to find better places. Keep the seed in a sealed envelope and write on it "important". Or write it onto the back of a diploma. Or onto the last page of a book. Or all 3. Also, you don't have a shelf that's only yours? That can also be a good place. However, on the desk, no matter it's under the mouse pad, it's bad place from start.

I don't think it is safe to tell the exact place where people keeps their seed phrases on paper. Just think if someone here personally knows you and you shared here where you've been hiding these phrases, if ever he/she wants to steal something from you, he/she will have very good clues/hints where to look at.
So better think about it yourself on which place is the best place to hide these papered seed phrases.

It is extremely reckless to keep seed-phrase on paper in the public domain on your computer desk. Of course, your mom wouldn't steal your crypto using that seed-phrase, but as you saw for yourself, she could easily let others do it out of ignorance. Someone could find your recovery phrases among the garbage (away from home), albeit with a small probability. In your case, you should take care of a safer way to store it. I would recommend that you immediately exclude the online storage option and prefer the local method. In what form it will be, paper, metal, electronic media - it's all up to you.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389446.0 - here you can find some ideas for implementing your personal seed phrase storage method.

I can't seem to fathom what could be wrong in storing or writing it on one of the pages of a book, it is just the same thing as writing it on a piece of paper, the only thing is that a single piece of paper can easily be flung around and damaged quicker than a book, that is why the owner has to keep either of them well, depending on what you choose to use.

If a robber knows you have bitcoin and targets you, i do not think any method of security can save you completely, it can only mitigate the loss, and a book doesn't make it easier for them. They can beat the sh*t out of you till you surrender some coins to them, and the amount you surrender depends on how savvy and smart you have kept your coins prior to the event, but for the sake of your life, you have to surrender something to them.

If you aren't locking it in a safe, then it is significantly easier to hide a piece of paper than it is to hide a book. A book is pretty much limited to "hiding in plain sight" - on a book shelf with other books, in a drawer, etc., and simply hope no one opens it and looks in it. A piece of paper can be hidden in more places than you can count. Take a wooden shelf off the wall, drill a small hole in the back of it, roll up your paper and place it inside, and put the shelf back on the wall. The same can be done where two pieces of wood meet in any piece of wooden furniture - chairs, sofas, desks, cabinets, etc. You could even do the same on the top or bottom of a wooden door (with a small piece of tape to make sure it doesn't fall out). Unscrew a light fitting from the roof or an electrical socket from the wall and stuff a piece of paper in there (be sure not to cause a fire hazard). Between a picture and its frame. Inside pretty much anything that can be taken apart. Under carpets or floor boards. Hell, inside your walls if you really wanted. The possibilities are endless. It is entirely possible to hide a piece of paper somewhere in your house that a robber would not find it even if he had free reign to search for an entire week. Books on the other hand are a "classic" hiding place - everyone's seen movies or TV shows where people have cut out the inside pages of a book to create a secret storage compartment.

Well, that's a separate issue which is dealt with by using hidden wallets, passphrases, and plausible deniability.

Suppose someone gets hold of the file (which is very possible since it's stored online and you don't know who has access to it), do you think your password and encryption will be impenetrable? Would you be willing to stake the faith of your coins on it? What if that someone has an enormous amount of processing power and unlimited time at his disposal? If you think about it, he might be cracking your password right now without you even knowing it.

Your problem is that another person goes through your stuff and decided what to throw away without consulting with you. You should tell all people in your house to respect your boundaries and not do anything with your items without asking you.

And as for storing seed, you need two things - redundancy and a safe storage. Write down your seed on multiple pieces of paper and put them in different places. Use mediums like USB, CD, SD cards. Put them somewhere where people generally won't look.

You have a choice on storing it into a draft message on your email that isn’t online on any device and you have the password to it, or you can write it down, well I am not the extrovert type of person so too many people don’t have access to my privacy especially my private area. Well it’s not advice sharing exert places your kept you seed phrase but I kept mine in sequence on a place only me can piece the puzzle together easily.

I don't like this advice, because most people do not know how to create and use these things safely and securely, i.e. created on a clean and airgapped computer, and only ever recovered on a clean and airgapped computer. Most people would create these back ups by writing their seed phrase in a text file, copying it to their external storage, and then deleting the text file, all on their usual every day computer while connected to the internet. I'm sure I don't need to point out to you all the things which could go wrong with such a method, but many newbies will be unaware of the risks involved. Conversely, everyone is able to write down some words on a piece of paper safely and securely. I agree redundancy is mandatory as I mentioned earlier in this thread, but you can achieve redundancy simply by making more than one paper back up and storing them in separate locations.

Don't do this. Don't store anything valuable in an email account, ever. I'm not sure what you mean by storing it in an email account that isn't online, but if you are storing something valuable on an airgapped computer then you should encrypt it, not put it in some email software.

If no one in your neighborhood knows you know Bitcoin or they didn't know you have Bitcoin then I would say that it is safe to say that you won't be having problem with any attacker since know one knew that you are into crypto. Did you do something with your recovery phrase like laminating the piece of paper which will avoid getting ripped in half or into pieces plus storing it with your other important files. Storing it in a computer that is connected to the internet doesn't mean it can't be safe if you know how well you can protect it but what all people say about storing using that method is that there is a chance or a possibility that a person may be able to steal or make a copy of your recovery phrase whatever tricks they know just to steal.

Shouldn't all wallets be created on a clean and airgapped computer? And recovered too? For example, Electrum asks the user to enter their seed during a new wallet creation, so if a system is infected with keylogger, it could be immediately stolen. Or a malware can just steal an encrypted wallet file and keylog the password.

I don't know how big the book you think i am talking about is going to be, hell there are books of just 15 pages-20 pages, those books are very small, but are less vulnerable to damage than a single piece of paper, i can keep books of these small number of pages in almost every place you just mentioned and it will damage way slower than a piece of paper, i can write my seed phrase in the middle of the book for example, it has an external cover and extra pages, and it will take more time for any agent of damage to get to the very page that contains the seed phrase.

But what about just a single piece of paper, it will aparently damage faster than my choice. 'In the wall', 'between woods', 'under the carpet', 'in the roof', etc, there are many things that can easily destroy a piece of paper in almost all these places you metioned, they are interesting choices but with cons too that you did not include, agents of damage such as light, humidity, water, insects, dust and so much more can damage that paper very fast. I do not know where you live, but rats are another thing to look out for where i stay, these tiny rats can be found in surprising places, all of these agents of damage will destroy a single piece of paper faster than a book, the type of book i mean is in the first part of my post, that is why i think it is safer o_e_l_e_o.

You haven't been targeted that's why you think this is safe, haven't you read about one of the most recent metaverse hack that happened in the industry that the hackers targeted their victims, created a fake company interested in hiring them. Went through all the process of interviewing them making sure they'll click on the link sent to them as been acceptable for Job then finally sent them the malicious links so as soon as they access the link through their work computer, the hackers got access and the rest is history.

I don't think there's any other safer way of storing your recovery phrase then using an offline method and one of those is storing them on paper. Now making sure that paper isn't easily accessible is where the challenge is and if you leave with your parents or someone, you have to be extra careful making sure they don't easily have access to it.

You're already on the right path to storing your seed phrase, you did it right to have an extra copy so what are you afraid for.

I'd rather store in on a piece of paper than keep them online, that isn't advisable because anytime, it could be hackable since you're connected to the internet (unless you've air-gapped device that didn't connected to the internet) anytime.

I think it's on us who are responsible to keep our seed phrase safe in the first place, as you've said you put it into your computer table that shouldn't the right place to keep a valuable stuff.

I wouldn't say all, because there are legitimate uses for creating and using mobile hot wallets for small amounts of funds. But yeah, anything holding serious amounts of money should be a hardware wallet or permanently airgapped. However, we both know full well that the majority of users don't do this. Hell, it's hard enough to get people to stop using absolutely trash wallets like blockchain.com or Trust wallet, let alone use an airgapped device.

So you adapt your storage based on your location. If you are concerned about something like water, fire, or pests, then regardless of if your seed phrase is on paper or in a book then it is at risk. A piece of paper I can put inside a small fireproof and waterproof container and still hide far more easily than I can do so with a book.

Can't you simply talk to your mom and explain to her not to throw away stuff she finds in your room. If she doesn't understand what a recovery phrase is, she has surely heard of passwords. Tell her that it's important for your school/work, you will be in difficulty if it got lost, and advice her to be careful. Most importantly, clean after yourself.

A seed phrase stored under the mouse pad. ??? Have a look around your room. There are certainly places and items where you could hide a piece of paper. Does your mom use a screwdriver to look inside various tools and equipment when cleaning? Probably not. Lifting the mouse pad is easy. Taking apart and dismantling X is harder. ;) 

You don't have to explain her how Bitcoin works, just that piece of paper contains the sort of password that you need to access your bitcoin.



My parents know that I am into crypto but they don't have any knowledge about it and they never created wallet/sent bitcoin or anything similar. That didn't stop me though from storing a copy of my cold storage seed phrase in their house as I explained them its a fail-safe in case something happens to me, my wallet and/or other seed phrase copies.

We all know that a seed phrase is like a gateway to your assets. What do you do with it? Your guard and keep it safe to avoid outsiders' tempering with it. Misplacing it means you can't have access to your wallet ever again. Those who have lost their seed phrase due to carelessness are regretting till today. The seed phrase is not an ordinary word that can be crammed easily, that's why it is advised to write it down and keep it safe.
If you do understand and know what the seed phrase means, you won't only write your seed phrase on a piece of paper without keeping it safe from where it can not be tempered by anyone.

you know you could use a notebook where you write important emails, passwords, pins, seed phrases, etc... instead of a piece of paper. the only reason why your seed phrase was almost thrown into the trash is that (you said it yourself) you left it on your computer table. something as important as a seed phrase should not be lying anywhere, it should be properly kept stored and hidden.

You took the word out of my mouth. I don't even know how OP thought that would sound to those reading this post.

---

Back to the question raised in the OP. For me I like to keep my secret phrases or passwords on a booklet containing other valuable articles and write-ups. Writing it on a booklet or two booklets as a way of duplicating them helps much. Copying passphrases/passwords online or storing them on the cloud or emails is a no-no for me. I like to keep it simple. Don't use a distinct booklet. Let it be on a booklet that won't trigger scrutiny of preying eyes. Then, sensibly leave the booklet at a place that won't make it look like you're hiding anything. After all, they say the best way to hide something is to expose it.

Your train of thought prompted me to "spy" idea. Why not write seedphrase on the booklet (or other paper or not paper only) using ink that can only be seen under certain lighting conditions? For example, ultraviolet. This way, by chance, no one will be able to see what you wrote, because the text in the booklet will be colorless under normal lighting.

Don't bank on that method because you won't be the only one who knows or understands how to use an ultraviolet ray to decode stuff on papers. My idea of masking secret words/stuff is to make them look as ordinary as possible. It's the same method local men in Africa who carry huge cash around use. They appear unkempt and unassuming when ferrying cash across in a way that even robbers are likely to miss them on the road.

Anything online is a nope. You are entirely showing your secret phrases to whoever has access of that cloud storage even if it was encrypted or password protected. It is not worth risking all of your assets to that kind of matter.
Better have it engraved in a steel plate so that it won't be thrown away.
If you are going to use storage medias like hard drives, make sure to keep that hard drive R/W checked as I encountered some drives claiming to be in a specific size, but it was all just faked out.

Just tell your mom and anyone in the house that you're the one to clean your own room so that no one will touch those important things that you've got.
There are suggestions that I've read that making it like a dog tag but it's hard to find someone that will do it for me so, if you've got an idea on how to make it like in a steel plate then that's much better as part of your backups. Otherwise, just remind everyone that don't touch anything in your room. In my strategy, I've got backups everywhere and I've told people in the house that never touch those that I've pointed them out.

Storing seed phrase on paper can be safe. I think the reason why your mum had access to it is because you didn't keep the book where it was written in a safe and private place. Storing seed phrase on paper and online can be safe but it depends if individual can keep it safe or handle them with care .

It’s important to let them aware that at all costs they must always double check before throwing if it contains a very important information such as seed phrases. And also we must make them remember on where they have stored their seed phrases on paper before throwing anything.

You can engrave the seed phrases in an aluminum plate as it is resistant from fire and water exposure.

This method, proposed by me, is certainly not universal. In some cases this is acceptable, in others there are other options, such as yours. To see the text with the help of ultraviolet, written with such a "spy" marker, you need to know exactly where to look for it. But what if you don’t have a couple of booklets at home, but a whole home library? Searching through all the books will take a lot of time if you don't know in which book and on which page the seed-phrase or any other password is written. This is much better than keeping recovery phrase  in a notepad on your computer desk.

If they knew about the existence of bitcoin, they would transfer money in a faster and easier way. :)

Invisible inks generally have quite a limited lifespan. Most UV pens will last somewhere around 3-5 years, but it will depend on the type of ink, the type of paper, the conditions of storage (temperature, humidity, etc.), and so on. You might find that the lifespan of UV ink is significantly less than this, and you would have no way of knowing unless you tested it first and waited several years to assess for fade, which obviously no one is going to do. The last thing you want is to come back to seed phrase in a couple of years to recover your coins and find that the ink has degraded so much that you now can't make out all the words.

Aluminum is a poor choice for engraving a seed phrase. It has low durability, low strength, low melting point, high malleability, and high reactivity. Probably the best metal to use would be titanium, but the best balance between cost/ease of access and durability is stainless steel.

Ok, I understand your addition to UV inks and I admit that I didn't take into account the short "life" of such inks. Also, I didn't indicate that being limited to one recovery without copies, and only on paper, is completely unsafe. But it was supposed to. I considered writing recovery phrase with UV ink as a way to keep it easily accessible in case if needed to use it quickly (as an addition to the main). For long-term storage, it is better to use a different material, and not as "fragile" and easily destroyed as paper. Moreover, it is better in several copies.

Aluminum is inferior in its characteristics to titanium and stainless steel, but still, it will be better than plain paper.

Some advice is like a millionaire or a paranoid owner of bitcoin.
If the OP simply grows up and stops talking to his mother like a small child, then the most ordinary piece of paper on which his seed phrase is written will cease to be a constant worry for him.
How many of those who advised saving phrases in colorless ink themselves use such methods? Rampant fantasy?
Or maybe just be able to maintain order on their own?

I can think of many different ways to store sensitive data, but I'm not comfortable sharing how exactly I do it myself. I can say I don't use invisible ink though :)

I think this is your fault not your mother's, you were too careless to leave the paper with the seed phrase on the computer desk, it should have been kept in your wallet or somewhere else people can't see.

With seed phrases, it's best to keep them offline instead of online, and security methods won't guarantee that it won't be compromised if it falls into the hands of a hacker.
I usually keep important documents in my room, maybe a safe, a secret place that only I know about and a copy I give to my wife to keep.

I am (at least for seed phrases) - plain old boring paper and ink.

I don't quite buy in to all the hype surrounding metal back ups. There is no denying that stainless steel is more durable the paper. In a house fire, your paper back up will be destroyed but your steel back up will survive. But now think of this practically. Are you going to spend days searching through the rubble of your house, through bricks and nails and dust and ash, to try to find your steel back up, or are you just going to go and retrieve one of your other back ups in probably under an hour? Are you even going to be allowed to search through the rubble, or will it be closed off by police or the fire service while they ensure it is safe or check for any suspicious circumstances? You'll just wait patiently for a few days and hope none of the workers on site stumble across your back up in the meantime?

Consider other disasters such as a flood, tornado, or landslide. Stainless steel will survive that just fine. Will you be able to find it? What good is a steel back up if it is buried under 50 feet of rocks and earth, or if it's been washed down river, and you will never find it again? In such a scenario, your only option is to go retrieve one of your other back ups.

Paper and ink stored properly will survive hundreds of years. Proper redundancy and off site back ups should be the most important thing that people focus on. Two pieces of paper in separate physical locations is far more resistant to disaster than a single piece of metal.

+1
This is a very practical advice which would save users lots of headaches, as well as, money spent on acquiring fancy ways to store their bitcoins.

• For one, paper storage makes it relatively easy to back up your seedphrase within minutes as compared to other means, so, one can easily create multiple addresses and back them up safely.
• Anyone can do it themselves, as opposed to some other means of storage that would require one to visit a handyman to execute properly, risking exposure.
• It's easy to store something written on paper safely in multiple locations than to store a block or plate of steel.

Good point, if I wouldn't live in the Netherlands :P The flood-scenario on the other hand, is much more likely.

I agree, but backups out of the safety of your own house also add another risk factor.

True, but I would argue that if the only place you have backed up your seed phrase is in the same location (your house) that your wallet itself is stored (be that a software wallet on a computer, a hardware wallet, a paper wallet, whatever) then you don't really have a back up at all. The only thing you are protected against is failure of the wallet itself (via direct damage to the computer or hardware wallet, electronic shelf life, and so on). You have absolutely no protection whatsoever against fire, flood, explosion, tornado, landslide, or any other natural disaster, and limited protection against robbery or theft.

If you do not have a completely secure external location to store a back up, then your options include renting one (such as a safe deposit box) or using a system which requires compromise of more than one back up to steal your coins (either multi-sig or additional passphrase(s)).

I would advise you to read how fillippone's thread on  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5389446.0)Securing Your Seed Phrase with Washers. Although, there are many other methods, I have however,  found it to be the real deal. At least if you decide to go ahead with it, the next time your mum cleans your room she would be less likely to throw it away. And in addition, you will be less paranoid. And you wouldn't have a single care in the world about losing it natural disasters as well.

After I bought my trezor hardware wallet It has a paper which makes you write those seed phrases and of course, you can make a lot of copies with that not only those given or included in the box there's no security right now in the online world anyone can deep in with your devices if they can, I make five copies of the seed in the house and those are distributed which is rarely seen by the people if you put your seed online I guess it is not more secured as you buy a hardware wallet purpose.

Several people I know say they laminate things to secure their wallet seed phrase. This might be a good choice among many, but I'm sure everyone has their own unique way of keeping it safe.

Have you ever had a big photo on the wall of your house or something? I once considered it one of the safest places to store seeds at home regardless of whether you wrote them down on paper or whatever. In addition, the decoration in the glass cabinet can also be an option for storage if it is about laminating.

It's amazing to think that these things have to be taught, seriously! in fact I even read that they recommend manuals, there are 1000 and 1 ways to do it, `please!

Ask your mother, I'm sure she will be able to tell you as many ways there is, as you don't ask her!

e.g.
How old are you? Surely your mother keeps your birth certificate very well, etc. etc.

It is not necessary to be a millionaire to value your own, albeit modest, savings. Some degree of paranoia will not hurt the owners, what is called reasonable foresight and caution. You, too, don't scatter, for example, information that allows you to access Internet banking or bank details left and right and try to protect your money from theft. The question is who is watching this more closely, and who is negligent. It happens that in some cases it is better to overdo it. It can be blamed for excessive vigilance, it can be blamed for insufficient. Can always find a reason to quibble.

After all, we don't know the age and subtleties of his relationship with his mother, so why condemn him. That's not why he shared his story. I am sure that OP has already heeded to many constructive advice given to him in the discussion of this topic.
 
It seems to me that most of the advice that is given, for verification, can easily turn out to be "rampant fantasy". At least, we definitely can't check who uses what method. If someone advises me, for example, on a method of seed-phrase storing, which the adviser himself doesn't use, then it will not matter to me. If the idea seems interesting to me, then I will test the new method and after satisfactory results, i will use it.

Are you offended? I did not mean to offend, but I read all the posts and was surprised by the variety. Simplicity will save the world. Have you heard about it? You don't need to reinvent the wheel to store your seed phrases. You just need to be careful. Likewise, you can also lose a piece of metal. In the same way, Mommy will throw away a piece of paper with colorless ink, so there will be nothing to reproach her with.

The age of the account suggests that the OP is not a child, registered in 2016, and he is still at a loss about storage. Do you really believe it?

And also, I just imagined an evil mother who would not listen to her son; nevertheless, she would carefully clean his table.

I mostly write my important details like my seedphrase on notebook to since I feel safer when I write it offline that saving it on any other application on my computer. To safekeep it I told my parents that they shouldn't touch this notebook because I have important information written there and also I save 1 slot on my desk drawers and lock it so that no one can touch it when I'm far from my computer.

There can be no 100% perfect and safe way to store anything, including recovery phrase. Anything can be lost, be it a piece of metal or paper. But in the context of the title of this topic, all the same, we are talking about paper as a way of storing seed-phrase, so there were thoughts about using colorless ink. Whether to use this option or not is a purely personal choice.

The date of registration is not the date of birth, and theoretically, it is possible that this account was created, for example, by a teenager in 2016, who now lives with his mother (who, due to the elapsed time, has already become older, but still young for an independent life). Do I believe in the story told by OP? I can't know the truth of what happened, but until your comment I saw no reason to doubt it. Now a seed of doubt has been planted, but that doesn't matter anymore.

If don't dwell on the evil mother, then any family member or close relative can accidentally throw seed-phrase away, lose or destroy it. For example, children who randomly find it written on a piece of paper and not realizing the importance of this will make the text unreadable during the game. And with regard to the caution expressed by you, I can only agree, but I want to add that it would be appropriate to restrict access to written seed phrase to any close person who is not aware of the purpose of this. Harm can be committed without malicious intent and premeditation, but for the simple reason of not knowing and banal accident. 

I am sure that despite the recommendations to write the seed phrase on a piece of paper, most users ignore this recommendation. And this can be explained by the high vulnerability of such a record from fire or flood. So everyone adheres to their own strategy of preserving the seed phrase. But do not forget that your heirs should have access to it, in case you yourself prematurely leave this world.

It can be risky to have only one option of storing the seed Phrase, no place is totally safe both online and offline.  Having alternative of storing seed phrase is not a bad idea incase if anything happens to option A which contains information of wallet or seed phrase,  then it can be easy to get the seed Phrase in the other place where the seed Phrase was stored.

All my knowledge about information security is that if you don't want important information to fall into the wrong hands, keep it as far away from the Internet as possible :-X. I don't use a piece of paper, but a planner that is difficult to accidentally throw away. But the advice about making three backups makes me think.

A planner sounds risky to me. I would consider using tamper evident bags, so you actually know when someone broke your security, or tried to. It wouldnt actually be necessary to steal your planner, an attacker could just take a picture of the right page and you would never know, until its too late. Sometimes family members could also just take them for whatever reason.

So tamper evident bags combined with several paper and (optionally)steel backups, preferably in different hidden locations(but they need to be safe and trusted) if possible. Also make sure to use pencils that dont fade easily. Then regular checkups, to know if your security has been broken or not. Using a passphrase can buy you some time to transfer it to another wallet before attackers could, if just the seedphrase has been leaked.

I have mine written in a paper ^{(well, actually in a notebook)} and was keep together with all the important paper documents I had. Not that so paranoid of those who will get those papers coz it's nothing, like no value just personal thing/information and was kept in safe place. Well, in case of flood, it will be just one way to bring those things.
There is zero people^{(I guess)} knows about me having this kind on work^{(crypto life)} in my area, so...

And there goes everything.  If a robber breaks through your house, they will look for the most important stuff they can have.  So if you keep your recovery phrase next to everything else important you have, that could be just one of the top targets for robbery.

I sincerely suggest that you store your recovery phrase somewhere else, more concealed.  o_e_l_e_o has shared a few very cool ideas for much better storage that you should consider.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

A notebook is easy to grab, either accidentally by a kid or something that wants to draw etc/ or robbers that simply would check everything. They see a notebook with paper documents? They will probably take it and it could make you vulnerable to more attacks. If they smh were successful in finding keys in notebooks in prior robberies, then they will probably take all of them in the next ones. It’s just too easy to grab a notebook. And the information that enough people store their keys there, will reach them sooner or later.

So like i said above, my advice is something more fault tolerant, where even when your keys are stolen you still have enough time to move your funds. Where you know your security has been breached before it’s too late. And not being solely dependent on one location.

I understand, but robbers here won't grab any paper files unless its money cash, gadget or jewelries.

Like i said im not that paranoid of keeping things such paper backups. Because if ever, a robber breaks^{(obviously, my house will be in a mess if that happens)}, then for safety measurement i will just sweep the balance to another wallet and abandon the backup written on that paper backup immediately.

That notebook isnt just keep in a bookshelves or anything that a kid can get. Like i said, i dont think anyone will interest a notebook, people just thought its just a diary/journal, recipe book or something else. Robbers here don't just go something unimportant to them something they cant sell immediately.
Aside from that this is my method since 2017 and never get compromised.

I appreciate all kinds of safety measures and notes but that is what is working with me because if not, then I probably try different method already.

Note book would be the last place for arm robbers to go search for stuff,  what arm robbers want is money when they come to your house.  Their is this saying that if you want to hide a note of money from people in the house put it inside a book,  because not everyone is a friend to books. Writing seed phrase may not be properly safe in a place where children can easily have access to it. If a seed phrase is written in a book it should be kept in a place where no one will have access to it, no even water (flood) or cold environment.

It is quite easy. Just the same way you keep your school certificate and other important documents out of reach of others, that's how you should keep your phrase.

It’s just a matter of time until criminals adapt and look for seed phrases too. Also i wouldnt underestimate burglars, they’re much more sneaky and careful than robbers. And probably check every spot possible, depending on how they plan out their attack. The harder we make it for them to get anything out of it, the less they will try. I would simply choose a security model that covers most possibilities, there’s always the possibility that the unlikely scenario happens or maybe it wasn’t unlikely in the first place. And then it will have paid off to have added some extra measures for just barely more effort.

I am curious about this. Would a common burglar/criminal know that such seed phrases would let them open a wallet that contains plenty amounts of coins to be sold? I had read these type of news before though I am curious on how many burglars are aware about crypto stuffs like usually I am thinking of that they only know about paper money and that is the thing that they would be only after at.

The common burglar might still be lagging behind. The more widespread Bitcoin becomes, the more they will know tho. And theres for sure enough that know already. Data breaches and KYC could even make people direct targets, centralized exchanges store your complete transaction history, identity documents and your residence. A burglar could choose his targets wisely. It could also simply be a trusted person, this happens again and again too, for various reasons.

I think its better to develop a strategy against a burglar that knows how to copy seedphrases without the owner ever noticing, and who might know how to bruteforce passphrases. So you actually gotta know when someone accessed your backup to protect yourself, and for this you need seals or tamper evident bags and regular checkups. If you can always outpace the attacker, then any attack will become useless. This is the most reliable strategy in my mind.

Too careless.

First, you need to learn how to clean your own room (maybe you learned it now after you posted here :)). Your mother doesn't know what it is and she will just think that it is just another trash in your computer table thus, she threw it in a garbage an. You are careless because instead of putting it in somewhere else that is secured, you just put it in a computer table where anybody can just see it. What if there is somebody who knows about recovery phrases and he knows anything about hardware wallet? Your money will be gone completely because of how careless you are.

That would be better because after all, she doesn't know about recovery phrases and if she knows it, for sure she will not throw it in a garbage can. I don't recommend writing it online either because what is the purpose of your hardware wallet being a hardware wallet if you will just write it online. Hackers can still get your recovery phrase if you make a single mistake on your computer that will cause hackers to have access to your own PC.

I have many wallets that have seed phrases and I wrote every recovery phrase of every wallet thrice so I have 3 copies of each of the recovery phrase of each wallet. 1 of them is being stored in a locker where I only have the keys to open it, 1 is being stored in my physical wallet and the other one is being stored somewhere in our house that only me knows it (or maybe I will also tell it to somebody I trust the most when my time comes). I'm the only one who knows about crypto but I don't have any problems in terms of storing it since I always keep it safe and I'm not putting it into somewhere else that anybody can get it.

Storing it online? I'm not doing it so I'm not recommending it.

I still used to keep them in the offline digital storage, I know it's not highly secured but keeping the written seeds on a paper seems to hard for me to keep it by myself, yes I have the back-up written but not in my room its just kept somewhere safely which I don't access too often so let's say a bank locker for example.

The difference between a school certificate and a seed phrase is that if your certificate burns during a fire, you can get a duplicate. But if your piece of paper with the seed phrase burns in a fire, then no one can provide you with a copy of it. So a place inaccessible to others cannot guarantee the safety of saving the seed phrase.

Well considering that Bitcoin was already mentioned and could be part of the awareness of all at least, I see your point. Having a trusted person to become the one you are describing would be the most mind blowing thing to happen to me.
I never heard of any burglar yet that stole Bitcoin here in my country, maybe scammers, but not these literal scums that would just do nothing but directly ruin your life and savings.

There are many places we can keep our recovery phrase to make them safe from damage or being lose. We can decide to keep our recovery phrase in the diary and keep it in the shelf or in other books. We can decide to bury it in a box in case of fire attack or other environmental damage. keeping our recovery phrase can be challenging sometimes that is why we need to keep them safe.

This is a poor metric for gauging whether something is a safe or not. My house has never been broken in to, which means I could have written my seed phrase in large letters across my bedroom wall and it still wouldn't have been compromised. That doesn't make it a good idea though.

This. Your security should not depend on a criminal either not knowing to look for a seed phrase or not knowing what a seed phrase is when they find one. And when you consider how terrible most people are with their privacy - completing KYC, using centralized exchanges, using the same email for everything, posting things on social media, and so on - then many bitcoin thefts will be targeted attacks by criminals who know exactly what they are looking for.

Yes, exactly. How does it go, "Security by obscurity is no security at all"?

In conclusion, I think the best advice is to write down the seed phrase on paper and keep it safe or, if you really have to keep it in digital form, use strong encryption. But don't ever keep it in the cloud.

I prefer writing down recovery seeds in a book that I own, there here big notes out there with strong front and back cover, its what I use and this is where I store every thing crypto related like passwords, seeds and others.