Bitcoin Forum

Abstract

Both in academic and public discourse, bitcoin(₿) is mainly presented as money. This is grossly misleading, and it creates misconception about what bitcoin actually is. Here, we will use the definition of bitcoin given by the bitcoin creator themselves, to show that bitcoin is not money, but a common record freely available to everyone. That record serves a single purpose: to grant people access to a chain distributor scheme where participants, after making investments, cannot get anything back without “distributors”. Distributors are new participants who supply the resources to existing participants and enable them to return the investments. Given that the Bitcoin system consumes an enormous amount of energy and technical resources, while in the same time produces nothing and transacts with nothing, this makes it the most nonsensical invention ever.

The article is here: https://btcfarce.wordpress.com/

This is a total rubbish. And it is so sad that you are ignorant about Bitcoin and yet you still decided to sit down in your ignorance to come to this forum to keep on typing total rubbish all the time. Because I know you too well, this will be the 4th time you are posting a useless thread here. And I will like to advise you that you should learn to be positive at least once in your lifetime. And stop been negative all the time, for your own good

This is not rubbish, but an actual description of modern asset redistribution schemes. You're free to participate in these schemes, just stop spreading false narratives about them.

Your post is amazing.

Almost everything you wrote is silly. Except somehow, some way, you understood what few people realize, that Nakamoto's system does nothing more than transfer integer numbers from one long string of letters/numbers (public address) to another. These integer numbers today are called Satoshis (in honor of), and the white paper does not mention the word bitcoin at all. The word "bitcoin" (when used used to represent the system's native token) is just a representation of an amount of satoshis, one bitcoin = 100.000.000 satoshis. You are correct in your assessment that all that is happening is that regular plain old integer numbers (satoshis) are being  rearranged.

How you were able to understand this, and not understand anything else about how bitcoin (the network) operates, or how the system's protocol works, or how it can be used as an electronic payment system, or the implications this could have to the future of finance in this world, or why it is accruing value over time, is just mind blowing.

Something you are saying is wrong, in the White Paper, SN mention first, Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System . What Snowshow is writing is revealing his own identity.

You are correct, bitcoin as the native token is not mentioned.

I agree, truth can be silly to those that deny it. Regarding the rest, in my post I am describing asset redistribution scheme, not the system that people use to access it.

"But all they have, and see with their own eyes to have, are numbers next to their addresses"

When you wrote this for some reason I thought you were referring to UTXO's when you wrote "addresses", and that you had taken a deeper dive into bitcoin than I thought. I wonder why my brain translated things this way. Maybe because you took the time to write so many words, I must have figured surely this person had taken a deep deep deep dive to write so much. Oh well, my bad.

Like I already said, I don't care about the system through which people access the redistribution scheme. I'm just describing the latter. I don't have to dive into anything to know that when I give someone my money and get number written next to my address I just participated in an instance of asset redistribution, and not in a market transaction.

you have wasted many months on your "just a number" idiocy..

but now reading your latest attempt.
you have so many things wrong in just this one paragraph alone
people using the actual bitcoin network do not register into a system to then be given a virtual address
you have absolutely no clue.. so i am thinking that someone showed you a altnet of a completely different system they made up.. , that they called bitcoin(brand stealing). and for months you have been describing that altnet..
.. because its clear to see you are not talking about the actual bitcoin network

if only you took those many months to actually learn about bitcoin, the actual bitcoin network. rather than just make pages of posts about something that you made up in your head or a altnet someone else made.. (that doesnt even describe how bitcoin works /functions or is used).. you might then have something to talk about

but from reading about some system you talk about which you want to call bitcoin.. that version you talk about is not bitcoin. its just a fantasy in your head and nothing to do with bitcoin

---

here is a dumbed down version of how the bitcoin network actually works

initially devices do hard calculations of a batch/pack/block of data (the data being a blocktemplate) in which this calculation produces an ID of the block that can only be correct if it has gone through many processes to find a sequence for the ID that meets a difficulty level required of the calculation
and also meets other strict rules.
these calculations have a real cost of time and electric and device costs, etc.

inside this blocktemplate data. the person who produced a ID that met the rules also had to put an allotment of units(sats awarded) which when everyone else sees that blocktemplate and the block ID that meets the difficulty requirement and is a representation of the block AND meets the rules.. they deem it to meet the rules and a valid block. thus a valid reward.
to award the block ID creator

now that winner did not register his name to get an address to associated the allotments of units to. .. what he done was create his own unique private key (varying methods) which then using cryptography creates a public key..
he does not need to register this to his own name.
instead by just having (in secret) the private key. he can produce a signature that proves he created the public key without needing a register to prove who owns which address.

so by assigning the reward to the public address. he gains control over what happens to the rewarded units because now only the person with the private key of that public address can sign over control of the units to a different address. by making a movement order request(transaction) that is signed using a secret only he knows. but can be proved via math and cryptography without revealing the secret.

when being rewarded units(sats) people can then sign some/all of their assigned units to other people.

because it cost actual electric to create the units initially people put a price on the cost of creating them units. and people started to sell the units.

those buying the units had a cost of buying the units and so when they decide to give the units to others they do so by selling the units to other people because there is a real cost of acquiring units.

and eventually more and more people have sats assigned to their addresses. and then only they can move the units assigned to their address to other peoples address

a bitcoin(btc) is an allotment of 100,000,000units(of sats)
much like a tonne is a allotment of 1,000,000units (of grams)

once you understand the complex and costly things involved you start to understand the value creation aspect of the units.

people cannot just create new units for free.
people cant move random units not assigned to them.(they cant spend units they have not acquired)

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

I don't know what you're talking about. You're responding to my post but write some random stuff.

In my opening post I am describing how Nakamoto lied about their system creating and transacting with electronic coins. There are no coins in the system. Nakamoto could as well claimed: "we define Ferrari as a chain of digital signatures". Users would still get only numbers next to their addresses. This is all that user have, see and manage. Numbers. There are no coins in the system, no Ferraries, nothing. One can put on paper whatever they want. It's just words.

I am also describing how people use Nakamoto's system for accessing an asset redistribution scheme. I have nothing against that. You can do whatever you want with your money. I am just refuting false narratives.
 This is not how bitcoin works. This is how Nakamoto's system manages numbers. I can now describe you in detail how SMS system manages text messages. But that would be completely off topic. The same as your post.

Your Dogma blinds you...

Good Luck ;)

Satoshi Nakamoto is reading your Post,  Dr Snowshow. He is just saying, what is the problem with Snowshow, who is scared to come to the Forum with his real name, instead using a fake name and writing all nonsense for many months. Nakamoto is saying, Snowshow is accusing me as liar. If some one accused someone as liar in a public forum is offensive. Snowshow might be banker, who thinks his fiat banking is going lose financial power because of mass Bitcoin adoption soon, so he is trying his best attack Satoshi Nakamoto. He might be sponsored by one of banking Elite or he might be Mr Warren Buffet disguising as Snowshow and posting all nonsense over period of times.

I think, Satoshi Nakamoto needs to reavel his identity to take Dr Snowshow to the High Court. Snowshow thinks using a fake ID will protect him from being caught up. That is not the case. Frankly has tried his best over many months to educate Dr Snowshow but he does not want to learn. It will two minutes for Satoshi to find your IP and real identity. Remember Satoshi Nakamoto is a benevolent God of Money. His duty is to make sure that new weather should be redistribute justifiably. He is very much tolerant person so, may forgive your offense against him.

if the bitcoin is not real , fiat money also just peaces of paper which was printed a value on it. maybe you are thinking bitcoin is not real because it cannot be touched or seen. bitcoin is for future and the future of payments , money , and financial system. see the future and ignore the nonsense.

snowshow

if your months of blab about that satoshi promised a coin
and you're waiting for a physical metal disk that has a face of some well know person engraved onto to.
then you really are going to have a long wait.

because if all of your knitpicking of saying that bitcoin doesnt work because you expect a metal circle disk. then you have missed out on alot of things about what bitcoin actually is

as for your endless rants about "a number". you are ignoring all the cryptography about ownership security and proof of possession control.

you are also forgetting the COST of acquiring the units

Maybe Satoshi Nakamoto himself created this thread to make the world know:
You can say whatever you want about Bitcoin ... Bitcoin won't fail, never.
Bitcoin will flip the monetary world as we know it ... just wait and watch ... or contribute ... your choice, you're free.

- just thoughts -

When you create a system that sends people numbers and you post publicly that it sends electronic coins, that's a lie. Because you know and you see that besides numbers next to their addresses, people get literally nothing else. If someone is capable to write a paper they are capable of assessing something like that as well.

But of course maybe the person or group behind Nakamoto identify was joking. And it's not Nakamoto's fault if people took the joke system seriously and started to give other people their electricity or other assets for numbers, or if they pushed the price of nothing up to the sky. That's just the nonsensical behavior of people that obviously like modern access to traditional asset redistribution schemes.

But anyway, I changed the world "lie" to "nonsense". I don't know, maybe Bitcoin Whitepaper is indeed a joke or Nakamoto is completely ignorant of economics and they genuinely thought that money are numbers.

Regarding the lawsuit. Hahahaha. How old are you?

Whatever, a person still owns no asset but just has number next to their address. And like I said. I am not interested in the system that manages numbers nor I care about people accessing asset redistribution scheme via this system. I am simply saying that they own no coins, no money, no asset, no commodity....

Your confusion is very understandable, different people have different brain capacity and sometimes they can't fathom new technologies that revolutionize the world unless they are dictated about their usage by some centralized authority. Since bitcoin doesn't have that, nobody told you anything and you are not equipped to understand it on your own either.

What's interesting is your persistence in convincing others with your 368 witless remarks for the past 5 months.

There's nothing revolutionary in people sending each other numbers via Nakamoto's system. There's only a giant waste of resources. It's not my fault if you believe in bitcoins but see only numbers and you're pissed off because of that. So there's no need to insult me. The problem is in you beliefs, not in me. I am helping you to see the truth and to wake up from collective delusion. You should say: "thank you" instead of insulting.

OP makes a couple of old sayings come to mind and validates them:  1) Never argue with a fool- they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.  2) If you can't dazzle them with intellect, baffle them with bull.

Nobody is insulting you here in this forum. It is you, who has insulted Satoshi Nakamoto by saying " satoshi nakamoto is a liar",

I am old enough to be your grand father. Now, I educating you about money, economics, coin, bitcoin and number.

Money, is property, product and services. To count money you need numbers and math. Economics is the faculty in relation to financial system and its broader scales of literacy. Coin is something round in English it is known as coil. Example gold coin or slver coin. Bitcoin is digital and math base counting unit of cash as well as an electronic service system. It is a financial product. Now your problem is how number can become a coin ?  Numbers are the representation unit of calculation which is an index. In economic sense Bitcoin literally is an economic index number which is computationally mined by logic base algorithm. To understand it simply you need some education. You know who is your father ?  He has a name. Now your father is not really that name but the person who has been given that name. Bitcoin or cryptocoin is a representation name of financial product call asset or money or currency. It is unique and ledgered by index number known as coin.

After this explation if you do not understand you may need some more help.

Those two saying are almost the same thing and also I don't think that OP is going to be doing any argument regarding his stance since he did already an essay worth of words to establish his belief that bitcoin is imaginary. Probably OP is someone who missed out buying bitcoin and is bitter that it go at such high prices.

Perhaps they are the one man or part of a FOMO FUD show hoping to take advantage of weak hands and panic sellers.  Actually, your sour grapes thought is more likely on the mark.

Your rant is showing you're pissed off. But that's because you created things in your mind.

First, I said that Nakamoto lied in the Whitepaper. Not that they are a lier. Lier is a personal feature. There's no person that could be accused of such feature. No one knows who Nakamoto is. So, you're imagining things.

Second, what you did in the rest of the rant is interesting. You rightly distinguished a thing(money - property, product, service... from a number (math abstraction) that is used to express the quantity of the thing, but you didn't say what thing do you own in the quantity of, for e.g. "10" when the number 10 is attributed to your address in the Nakamoto's system. You just used generic terms: currency, money, asset. And you did that because there's NOTHING expressed with the number 10. Bitcoin/coin/asset/money/currency ... is nowhere in the Nakamoto's system. This system manages numbers. It's a primitive communication system. It has nothing to do with payments. It's simply a means for people to access modern pyramid-style scheme.

What a load of crap… Another clueless moron pictures bitcoin as a ponzi scheme. Nothing original. No matter how much you scream, people will keep using bitcoin in their daily lives and lots of people will keep making money. There is a whole new industry built on top of bitcoin. You think that’s going to vanish easily? Thousands of people study blockchain technology and this helped them to have a full time job. Bitcoin creates wealth. It doesn’t just make the holders rich, bitcoin provided jobs. Without bitcoin the economy would suffer. There would be thousands of new unemployed people. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Bitcoin is inevitable.

of all the writings made by you, I do not care about the conclusions you make,
for me technological progress is unavoidable, as well as bitcoin which has spread throughout the world and people are competing to have it, if it is ponzi from which point of view, maybe I am too stupid in this matter but when it comes to money ready to care about a historical background

Since you wasted all your time doing this.

Why do you not take just one hour out of your free time and research what Bitcoin is and how it works.  What you are doing is exactly like explaining how a cell works scientifically without any background in scientific research.  You are writing stuff about something you do not even comprehend.

This argument would be interesting if you actually knew what you were talking about.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Some guy who do not understand how bitcoin is used wrote this up 100% for sure. Redistribution being worse than ponzi schemes? Really? That’s what you are going with? I mean a simple "I do not have any clue how mining works" would have been fine.

Miners get rewarded for their hardware and bills, which they make a profit from, and the people who do transactions are safe with those miners because they are protected by it and pay a fee for that. How could this be any worse than ponzi or pyramid could anyone tell me. At the end of the day, if you want to create lies about bitcoin and find a way to bash it then you are going to do it, nobody can stop you.

Please stop with that nonsense. I know you people have to promote this ponzi-style bs in order to get you money back.  But it's obvious that people are not "using bitcoin". They are just registering into Nakamoto's system in order to send each other numbers. There are no electronic coins called "bitcoins", like there are debt units called "dollars", or equity units called "Tesla shares", or product units called "iPhones".  "Electronic coin" is just a word used in Nakamoto's Whitepaper.  It's not something that is real. You people look so funny when you keep mentioning that you "use bitcoins" but all you do is receive numbers after giving your debt units, products, labour or services to existing users of this ponzi-style bs.

The internet is just numbers. Maybe this means that the internet isn't real, I guess. ;D
Websites, that are build with HTML code are just a bunch of HTML code, but they have value and they can be sold for a lot of money.
Having a bank account is basically owning a bunch of numbers. You get your numbers when you withdraw cash from the ATM.
OP, you sound kinda butthurt. If you are so disappointed by Bitcoin, just buy gold, real estate, commodities or just keep your cash under your bed. Nobody is forcing you to use Bitcoins, when you clearly hate Bitcoin.
We live in a world of concepts and the definition of "real" can be pretty relative.

Before you ask people to stop talking about the truth of bitcoin, then stop your bullshit here and elsewhere.

I won't bother going into detail about bitcoin to people with a trolling understanding like you because in the end we're just talking to a wall. I just hope every user avoids the conversation with you because it's a waste of time. So stop all this bullshit and live peacefully with your traditional fiat system instead of asking us to stop somewhere.

Numbers exist everywhere. In mathematics they count abstract objects. In fiat currencies and stocks they count real debt units and real equity shares. In companies they count real product units. Numbers also exist in Nakamoto's system, where they count non-existent electronic coins. You can use numbers for counting things that are not real. For example, in your mind you imagine a group of unicorns, and then use numbers to count them. That's basically what you people do. When you get numbers via Nakamoto's system you're imagining some electronic coins and believe the received numbers count them. But the only place these coins exist is fantasy. They are not real. Just like unicorns.
 

People may think that you do not know what you are talking about, but I see you as a bitcoin critic and nothing more. If you like, do not buy or use bitcoin at all, it is not buy force, but you have no control over it. You can try and read more about demand and supply if you have economics textbook, or you can go online and read about it. I just know that there are still some people that do jo yet believe in bitcoin like those that did not believe in bitcoin in the past, but the price of bitcoin continues to increase and the adoption also continues.

Even if I don't have a good understanding of bitcoin, but I won't say anything like hate about it. Bitcoins are not physical but units are limited to a number of 21m which cannot be added or possibly subtracted. I certainly wouldn't agree with most of your opinions although you have the right to have a different opinion than most others.

So if you don't have an idea to get people to justify your opinion, then you also have no right to blame our opinion who honestly believes in bitcoin and its innovation advantages over fiat. My two ears shouldn't hear anything wrong about bitcoin, so I have to shut them out of misinformation.

And what are you still doing here in this forum? I assume that an anti-Bitcoiner or hater paid you big money for posting this BS claims.

I understand that we can't please everybody here about Bitcoin, especially you. If you're not pleased with Bitcoin, that's on you. It's just that you've wasted your precious time posting nonsense like this instead of doing something productive.

This forum does not force everyone to believe in bitcoin or not, but Satoshi opens up opportunities for everyone to earn from bitcoin, the problem is you believe it or not that's your business, if indeed you are not interested in bitcoin, my question is why you,  using this forum, which without you knowing this forum is made by Satoshi, for users to discuss and find news about the growth of bitcoin from year to year.

Why do you create a new account only to push again your flawed narratives and provide baseless arguments that work only in your fevered mind that is anti-freedom in general and anti-bitcoin in particular? You are absolutely right that numbers exist everywhere, and everyone out there can use them to count things, even imaginary ones; it is a simple and logically undebatable idea that you pictured fantastically. You may have even convinced some inexperienced newbies who don't yet fully understand why bitcoin works, why it matters, and, more importantly for the subject of our dispute, why numbers in bitcoin are completely different from those you have described. The "problem" is that bitcoin is an isolated system that doesn't care what happens outside of it. It only cares about numbers that have been produced by a process of solving a very strong cryptographic puzzle or numbers that have been "moved" using cryptographic algorithms. No matter how strong your imagination may be, you can't create these bitcoin-specific numbers, of which the bitcoin system will care. No matter how hard you try, you will not be able to conjure up numbers out of thin air, nor can you steal those numbers from others because your numbers won't have POW behind them, and your imagination can't beat asymmetric cryptography. The claim that you can destroy bitcoin only because you know how to think of numbers is no different than saying that you have solved all existing mathematical problems because they never mattered in the first place due to the universal knowledge of the numbers they consist of.

Payment method and ownership of property require a system which must be calculative mathematically and without numbers it is I.possible to calculate the bloody capitalism base financial product such as currency printed by the central Bank. All the central Bank are main pyramid scheme created by the plutocrats. We need to find a way to by pass those crook pyramid schemes of central Bank and Bitcoin and blockchain are the two components to challenge those evil central banking institutions. Government are scapegoats just for five years. You said Satoshi lied in the White Paper and you denying that you did not said that Satoshi is  liar. Funny !
Greatly funny !

Bitcoin is not pyramid but it is something simply new and innovative methods of payment system and new wealth, which you do know it but your job is to confuse other in this forum as you have been sponsored by Warren Buffet like Persons or bankers.

Your personal opinions on fiat currencies or on me are irrelevant here. Fiat currencies are debt units. Debt is something that exist and that is returned as explained in OP. End of story.  What is important here is that none of you who use the word "bitcoin" as some mantra, are able to actually show bitcoins. You simply believe in Nakamoto's Whitepaper, just like children believe in fairytales about unicorns. Sure you can write down numbers in some database and then claim that this is the quantity of unicorns or coins, but that's just doing and talking nonsense. Saying that this is some kind of alternative to banks that create, manage, secure, and collect debt, is craziness of a high order.

For that matter, the internet isn't material either, but there are many sites on it, this forum for example. Stocks in the markets have long been digital, not physical, which, like bitcoin, can be displayed on your mobile phone screen. Sending a telegram message also consists of numbers. In fact, a lot of things are digital now, but for some reason bitcoin is the only scam. Strange.

Numbers can be displayed on my mobile phone screen, not electronic coins that people call bitcoins. Those are not real. Stocks are not digital, but the numbers that count shares in stocks can be written on digital media. I recommend you to read the OP instead of just repeating usual nonsense.

Hey Snowshow, why don't you create a forum called bitcoinnotreal.org or something like that and preach that crap there? Seeing as our meager intelligence here fails to see the light that you clearly see, surely you will be very successful preaching that philosophical bullshit there?

So basically you need an echo chamber.

By participating in an echo chamber, people are able to seek out information that reinforces their existing views without encountering opposing views, potentially resulting in an unintended exercise in confirmation bias.

Btw, why do you speak in the third person?

Of course all this time there has been a lot of misinformation being spread online whether it's for the purpose of creating a FUD or maybe because someone really hates bitcoin. You cannot trust all that information until you verify its veracity by reading further on the official bitcoin site. I advise you to ignore such people instead of making speeches.

Bitcoin has its own real value, but not all people believe on that because some prefer to stay in opposition and would not want to gain knowledge about the facts and legitimacy of bitcoin. While others keep on taking the advantages and opportunities because they know the fact that bitcoin is capable to create higher value in the long run. However, everyone is free to have their own understanding about bitcoin, but i prefer to stay positive and keep believing that bitcoin is real and that investing in bitcoin for long term will always worth the money and risk.

All this is transparent desperate scaremongering/trolling & BS ;D

Bitcoin is real! Computers are real, man! We are really here! We are where we are & it is what it is!

Money before BTC was made of metal & paper & there were people who said it would never work. There still are. They don't believe in magic!

They can't accept the human ability to imaginatively impose its designs upon the world around it. Even when that 'world' is only the part that is explicitly occupied by human thoughts, values & associations. Money was always a 'promise to pay the bearer' backed by professional enforcement. It enabled trade among greater numbers of people by building confidence & establishing trust. Bitcoin is clearly a natural extension of the same process! The code & cryptography keep it, money, out of the hands of the maniacs, thieves & luddites. Protect the projection of our designs on the earth & beyond! ;D

It's funny that OP doesn't seem to realize we live in a digital world where these numbers matter and have value.

Op said: The thing which we have just described is a kind of collective delusion, where people, based only on Nakamoto's post, consider themselves the owners of electronic coins, or generally, a digital asset. But all they have, and see with their own eyes to have, are numbers next to their addresses.

Following this thought, we have domains, we have sites, we build companies on these sites, we play online games and sell characters and items for a lot of money, we have digital photos, we buy digital art, we chat and date online, we work online, finish schools and get degrees online, but none of it matters because it isn't real. It's just code, numbers, right?

People believe in heaven there is a God. And also there is God's opponent name Satan the Devil who tells the truth but he is Diabolous. Now Snowshow speak very gently something to the Bitcoin community to deceive people like an opponent similar lake that of Satan. It mean may Satan has incarnated as Snowshow in the Bitcoin community but the truth  Snowshow has adopted his Pseudonym from Satoshi Nakamoto. Snowshow will not be able disagree about mystery which I have discovered by a computational logic.

He is just an opponent here in this forum.

Its always predicted that a lot of people will prefer attacking on bitcoin than simply believe that its legit and real. We can't blame these type of people as they have also their own perception and views about bitcoin, and for that respect would mean fair enough. However, convincing others on how you personally view bitcoin OP, i guess that will not be helpful at all. People have their own way of understanding and level of thinking, and it might be possible that they come to understand bitcoin like you never did OP.

True OP. You seem so obsessed in conveying others in an information which is not valid and factual. You won't be successful gaining the people's sympathy because the people have already studied and understood bitcoin, which i think you fail to do so. Bitcoin has a lot of utility cases, not only as a potential investment, but its also a good source of high paying jobs that we rare to see in the real world. And bitcoin will no longer exist for long if people are not benefiting from it, so its more on proper mindset because that's how people will start to believe on you.

anyway, no matter how long the OP will give his own reasons and justification of his perspectives towards bitcoin, we are already enjoying the benefits brought by bitcoin and now with other alts and with blockchain tech in general. even if he attached a lot of references and work hard for it, we can't deny the fact that this market is helping a lot of people around the globe especially during this pandemic and other crises. we don't know where he is coming from, but we all have our own insights on this tech. and for me, i am grateful about bitcoin's existence, one way or another, it helped me in this life.

Funny but true. It just seem so unfair for bitcoin that it always get negative criticism most likely from people that don't even know about the facts on bitcoin. Its either they stick to their own absurd beliefs and understanding without doing any research, because they really think they know everything about bitcoin. However, what you believed OP is not true to everyone as some would still want to have and own bitcoin since they also have good vibes and positive prediction about it.

You got it all wrong. Those that you mentioned are the existing digital things. When we count those things, we get numbers that can be written digitally or on paper. If you buy 10 digital products you can have number 10 written on paper or digital invoice.

So you must be able to distinguish between the two things:

A) Real digital product
B) Number that counts the units of that product

In Nakamoto's system you have B) without A). A) is not real but exists only in people's imagination. You have numbers written on digital media(blockchan), but there's no digital product whose units would be counted with that number. The product is imaginary and mentioned in Whitepaper with two words: "electronic coin", that people now call bitcoin. Bitcoin is not real, but when you write "10 BTC" this creates the illusion it is. It creates the illusion that there's 10 units of an actual product. But no such product exists in reality. You people are the victims of that illusion. Read the OP.



 

It's only natural for you to share posts from sources who don't understand Bitcoin, since you were on the forum on March 15, 2022. If I suggest you read more, it sounds like I'm tutoring you. To me, they are a group that doesn't like Bitcoin. Bitcoin was born long before you were present in this forum with various stories that have been experienced by many people with Bitcoin.

I think we don't need to discuss and explain in detail about this, because those who don't like Bitcoin will not believe in the explanation that will be given.

Don't forget to eat friend so that you are healthy and can carry out activities as usual.

And another one that is obsessed with educating me, completely ignored the proof in OP that bitcoins are not real, and just repeats fantasies abot the magical powers of non-existent bitcoin. Hilarious.

Often see it, strange news bin magic, about FUD news not without reason they make someone panic and want the bitcoin price to crash, of course that's the goal, if we mention there are some communities who don't really like it, with the emergence of bitcoin around the world, it  such as banking, and some that are connected to the economy, because the emergence of bitcoin hinders their growth, it is most likely news news on some social media, there is a possibility and has something to do with news there for bitcoin to plummet.

I have one simple question for you. When you have this written in wallet: "10 BTC" this suggest that you own 10 units of a product called bitcoin or BTC. Now the question:

where are those 10 units exactly located and what exactly is that product?

 Let's me help you. In "10 TSLA", TSLA is equity of company Tesla headquartered in Austin, Texas. In "10 USD" USD is debt created in the US banking system and located in loan contracts signed by borrowers. In "10 iPhones", iPhones are smartphones made by Apple and located in various warehouses.

Now you: in "10 BTC" BTC is .....  located in .....

You talk about bitcoin, so you must be able to answer my question. What those 10 units are and where are they located?

Only if you can believe in your fiat digits reflecting the units of your assets on your mobile through alert and same way you can deem fot by going to the bank or bitcoin ATM or p2p to claim those digits into fiat cash that you spend daily, then i see no reason why you should doubt on the digital version of currency that is more improved and decentralized than fiat to be a unit of your account, whereby you can convert your stash or bitcoins into fiat, withdraw it, make use of p2p, and have every digital units of coins from your wallet into a currency you can spend anywhere any time, then why not save yourself the unnecessary stress and give am attempts first and dee if it's monetized or not.

Yeah, that's a classical bitcoin propaganda and language manipulation that is used to lure people into believing bitcoins are real.

You literally ignored everything in the OP, and just repeat the propaganda. Pretty pathetic.

You need to tell those around you that you must be careful in receiving information. You should not be silent because the purpose of the mouth is not just to eat.
It is necessary to disseminate correct information about Bitcoin so that those with ears can hear about the benefits and advantages of Bitcoin so that those who are close to you can get a solution when they face problems with fiat.

And here you have practiced two textbook examples of a propagandist:

1.  Keep repeating a lie, "bitcoins aren't real", and hoping it sticks and that some will believe the BS.

2.  "Accusation in a Mirror", as a quote taken from the French psychologist's 1970 book on the topic:

That is, you are the one using "language manipulation" to lure people into believe an untruth, and yet you blame others for such actions.

... except that, as you can see, no one here is falling for it.

Please don't say the system that bank run all this time is reliable by most people, I'm sure we all know how they manipulate everything wrapped up in various offers that seem right but aren't. You, me, and everyone else out there have lived side by side with bank for years, but I believe we had no other choice before bitcoin was created as the best option for those who no longer believe in bank.

I know the gist of your speech, it is only true on your part and those who share the same thoughts as you. But for others, please don't force us to believe what you say. I don't even know how you want to explain to me how we should be proud of the bank versus bitcoin without the references you read. So close your sermon and save your own world.

There are two reasons people don't believe in bitcoin.
1. Frustration, this is caused by being too imaginative, maybe you are a person who failed in investing, so bitcoin becomes a scapegoat for your failure.
If you live in the Jahiliyah era, maybe some will never believe Mobile, airplanes and technology will exist, because at that time the only transportation used was horses, no cellphones and technology.
One thing you forget, that the journey of the Jahiliyah era to the present, many things we see are beyond logic, but in fact they have been enjoyed by people.

Don't narrow down knowledge, we are taught to enter into different fantasies, but not to resist progress.

2. You got to know bitcoin from the wrong person.
This story is unique, because in the area where I live, many people used to think bitcoin was not real, but finally they understood bitcoin and were not allergic to explore further, what I understand from the post you made, this is a concept of fear and something that design for a specific purpose.

I saw the post history along with your comments on the forums, people say you are a bank worker, this is understandable when you hate bitcoin so much, are you guys deliberately designed to continue attacking bitcoin.
"this looks funny"

It looks like you've been giving a speech in the middle of a soccer field for a long time, but unfortunately your speech was not heard by the audience!!!

After reading your piece about Bitcoin and still having concerns about the figures, I'm left wondering whether you live in a forest or among people who have adopted technology into their daily lives but you refuse to learn from it.

I hope you read about Oxford City, the English soccer team that made history by becoming the first English club to officially allow the use of Bitcoin (BTC) as a form of payment of match tickets. In addition, Bitcoin can also buy food and drinks at Oxford City Raw Charging Stadium. Then, Perth Heat, the most successful baseball team in Australia, became the first sports organization to pay for all the players and his staff in Bitcoin. The club merchandise and food sales can also be done in Bitcoin.

https://i.ibb.co/HCgpQwW/20220824-000425-rmedited.png

It is not surprising that Bitcoin has the highest market cap in the crypto market considering it was the first and most widely used crypto asset. In the context of a crypto asset class, Bitcoin can also be referred to as an easy-to-trade reserve asset. Investors can access the entire crypto asset market simply by investing in Bitcoin.

You might have forgotten that Bitcoin seeks to be a means of exchange that can be used to make payments. As a result, a lot of individuals have invested in cryptocurrencies using Bitcoin since they recognize that no one has been able to successfully hack the Bitcoin blockchain network to yet.

My recommendation for you to increase the amount of reading or research related to Bitcoin. Who knows, maybe one day you will be able to collect as much Bitcoin as possible.

You know, the same as I, and the same as everyone else who read the OP, that bitcoins don't exist. There's no person on Earth that saw anything else in their wallet but numbers. The whole system, on the other hand, just stores data from which those numbers are calculated. So factually, there are no electronic coins called bitcoins. There's nothing in the ownership of number holders that would be counted with that numers.

So, why are you lying? What are you trying to achieve?

Honestly let them think like this is a good approach I agree with that. I personally disagree and I have made a quite good amount of money and I have avoided banks and fiat crashes and I have managed to make a life and I am living a life that is insane to think about. I have an email account that I got in 2014 around the early times when I got interested in bitcoin, then I checked all my emails that I "saved", like not deleted, important ones.

I checked them last night and I can say that my life was not some rich wealthy amazing life, but it was surely an uncommon life, there is nothing wrong with that, it has been financially decent like all my friends but at the same time it was also quite unique as well. All thanks to bitcoin.

True! It is a personal choice to believe or not in Bitcoin. People who have good knowledge about Bitcoin and the crypto market believe it to be real unlike those who don’t.

Bro' stop trash talking. Saying BTC doesn't exist is like saying the value that we all agree is stored in the material of & markings on a $100 bill doesn't exist, because nobody can locate this arrangement physically.

Bitcoins are blocks of encrypted information. The physical wallets we may use to send or receive this information, which represents an agreed upon storage of value for exchanging almost any other goods & services, only record transaction information. The fact that BTC does not occupy any more physical space, unless you print off paper wallets which some do, is part of its strength. It is evidence of the streamlining of the commercial currency exchange process. Pieces of paper & metal with markings on them that say this tender is representative of X amount of value because such & such an enforcement agency or government say so doesn't make coins or notes any more stable a form of currency than Bitcoin, which is a decentralized cryptocurrency with a proven track record of success as functional currency in the real world, for private individuals, huge exchanges, & traditional investors alike. If your country gets invaded or experiences some other more incremental catastrophe that destroys its economy, and your currency is suddenly rendered obsolete, you have nowhere to go. That is never going to happen to BTC because it is protected by the exponential growth in computer power & universal enfranchisement of using the internet. The majority have too much invested in these things to allow that economy to implode. Consensus wins, democracy wins. Not ancient Greek democracy or modern Greek democracy, but the universal ethical ideal of reason & transparency & faith in the long-held conviction of a majority.

That’s the decentralized meaning of bitcoin as well. If you would like to do something that we are dealing with, then you are free to join us and be part of the bitcoin world that we are dealing with. But, if you do not want to then there is absolutely no reason to go with it at all, just focus on what you are doing and you will be fine.

This is why there isn't anything right about the current situation being forced or anything, it’s not. If you do not want to believe in Nakamoto, you have 100% right to do that, and that is amazing because you can choose to ignore it, try to ignore dollars or euros if you can and see if you can survive without them.

Beliefs are something in your mind. No one cares about what happens in your mind. This is discussion about what is outside of minds, and that's reality. In reality no one is able to show bitcoins, just numbers.

Hahaha. A block contains data about sender, receiver and a number sent or received. This number is supposed to count coins, that is bitcoins. But no one has those coins. No one ever saw them.

Regarding those blocks and chains of blocks, anyone can download a copy of the blockchain, and it can be inspected to trace the path of numbers sent from one sender to another. So, you defined bitcoin as something that everyone can download for free. Hilarious.
 
The rest of your text is propaganda mixed with pure nonsense. You cannot protect something that doesn't exist. What you protect are numbers next to addresses. But why would anyone protect math abstractions that can be created in everyone's mind in an instant and used for whatever purposes? It's stupidity never seen before.

Stop talking air biscuits you subatomic troll-virus.

Cash is an agreement, it always only existed in the minds of capitalists. You might pretend you are a communist agitator, but as is most often the case with these things, you're more likely some frustrated kid airing his grievances through pseudo intellectual ranting.

I never said anything of the sort. The source-codes & the blockchain can be downloaded for free, not that I actually mentioned this.

A bitcoin itself is a symbol of mathematical computation, it is a proof-of-work electronically protected by codes that you obviously cannot get your head around. So what?

The wallet does not store Bitcoins, because the wallet only records information about transactions, which I suggest you look into a little more before your 'hahaha that makes no sense to a dumb shit like me so how could it make any sense at all' responses.

It is an agreement between traders. We never needed paper or coinage for anything but the storage of value that we ascribe to things and agree to conform to for the sake of transparent economy & ease of trade. Now, we have the advancing AI of modern computers to store this symbolic value for us, which is much more efficient, & doesn't need the fallible & fickle consent of bankers or their spotty sons & that means you ;)

Do  you think the number you see for your bank account balance is real? It is a credited number and means nothing. Banks printed money from the air and their money can not worth nothing if a whole finance in a nation collapse. Venezuela and their national debt, finance collapse is an example.

Bitcoin requires people to mine it. In order to mine it, they must spend money to buy ASICs, set up mining farms, use electricity, have air ventilation and more things. There are inputs, there are money to mine Bitcoin so Bitcoin has value from mining resources at least.

Fortunately, its value is backed by its technology and by its pioneer role in blockchain.

Nakamoto in the their Whitepaper defined "coin", that you people call "bitcoin", in this way: "chain of digital signatures". And you people, here on this forum, have your own personal definitions. Every person that responded to my post, gave me different definition of bitcoin. You're basically fantasizing. Making things up in your mind that have nothing to do with reality. What is that telling you? That the whole thing is one big joke. That's the reason you are pissed off and why you insult people that are just telling you plain and simple truth.

Let's take Nakamoto's definition. If Steve has 1 BTC in his wallet, and Ema 100 BTC, that would mean that Ema has 100 times more "chains of digital signatures" than Steve. What does that even mean? It's a complete nonsense. Chain of digital signatures is stored on blockchain. And everyone can download it for free. So essentially, according to Nakamoto, Ema spent 2 million dollars in order to buy something that is available for free to everyone. That's craziness never seen in human history. Wallet applications are informing you that you own xx units of a thing that you can download for free.

So, if you buy bitcoins from me and I sign a poiece of paper saying that I sold them to you, does that make it complete? If yes, I'm fine with giving it to you. If not, It's a bit strange because you are willing to accept a deed signed by someone else, like a hosting company that gives you some disk space to build your website, or another company that says the domain name belongs to you.

You are fine with calling online game currency real, but not bitcoin? You lost me here.

I have one simple question for you: "what is bitcoin"? What are you offering me to buy?

I'm not offering you bitcoin, just saying that if I ever happen to sell it to you, I'll be fine with signing a piece of paper saying that I did, because you seem to be attached to invoices and seem to think that if it's signed it becomes "real".

You don't know what bitcoin is? Do you want a link to the white paper? There's s good explanation on investopedia, bitcoin.org and other sites. I also recommend Andreas Antonopoulos on youtube.

If this is propaganda then please disprove it.

Your idea that every bitcoiner wants to lure people in to gain something from it is also pathetic. This is a multi billion dollar economy. Getting someone to try it out with $10 doesn't change anything for us holders. Even if that person buys a million USD worth of coins it won't make it move by 1%, but it may help that person.

Believe it or not, but when I tell someone to use Bitcoin i have that person's benefit in mind, not my own.

So, you are unable to define bitcoin. Just as I thought. If an invoice has 10 iPhone 13 written on it, I have no problem defining what I am selling. The same is true for everything else, from stocks/equities that have quantity written on brokerage accounts or stock certificates, to debt that has quantity written on bank accounts or banknots. But you people are making up your own definitions of bitcoin and all are different. Instead of just admitting that Nakamoto invented nonsense you're acting like some clowns.

Speak only for yourself my friend, because I and everyone knows vividly well that Bitcoin exist, and has come to stay forever as a decentralized digital currency


So what actually were you expecting to see in your wallet? Is it your wife's head? Or your dog's head? Or your daughter's head? Or what exactly instead of numbers. Because I'm eager to know


So if there is nothing as Bitcoin, why not leave us alone, because we are happy using Bitcoin whether it is an electronic coin or not.. please.. we are happy the way we are


But the same number has made a lot of people billionaires, living a comfortable life, and also giving you sleepless nights everyday, to rather come to this forum to post nonsense

It has been defined, described, explained to you countless times, by many, over and over again, and every which way.  Yet it seems it is you who are unable to understand.

Or, rather, it is you who are pretending to not understand, and therefore you are maliciously just wasting people's time on purpose.

Hahaha. What is there to understand if you all gave different definitions? You people show, with literally every post, that you don't have a clue what bitcon is. You're literally ignoring the definition made by the guy who created the whole thing. Satoshi Nakamoto defined coin in the Bitcoin Whitepaper as this: "chain of digital signatures". That's the definition of a coin, that's the definition of a thing that people later started to call bitcoin. So when you buy 10 bitcoins you bought 10 "chains of digital signatures". When you buy 50 bitcoins you bought 50 "chains of digital signatures". But wait... there's only one chain. It is recorded on the blockchain. And that record is free for everyone. Everyone can download it and calculate how many coins an address owns or what addresses signed the transactions. So essentially, the system via your addresses is showing you how many peaces of a thing that is single, and available for free to anyone, you own. Do you see how stupid that is? Do you see the stupidity this person Nakamoto wrote? It is no wonder you all have different definitions of bitcoin.

Why does it have to be a lie if it is only in digital numbers? Does that mean all the digital numbers I see on my bank account is a fake? You may think that "You can withdraw it at least" but can Elon Musk really withdraw billions? Of course not. This is why I believe that we shouldn't really be focusing on what you can hold in your hands.

There are many things that you can't "see" and real, like virus we just had for the past 3 years, you can't see it, you need to use a machine to see it, and yet we know it's real. Or you can have feelings, anger is real, but can't be held in your hand, and it's still real. Do not put emphasis on the material, keep a feeling towards the things that are in our minds as well, they have value.

To OP - of course they exchange numbers. That's why it is a DIGITAL currency. If they exchanged something other than numbers, it would be analog.

Numbers exist in books, articles, on invoices, bank or brokerage accounts, banknotes, signs, everywhere. The fact that there are numbers mean nothing. What is important is what the numbers inform people. In Nakamoto's system they inform them that they own xx pieces of "chain of digital signatures". Which is stupidity never seen in human history. Because that chain is only one, it is freely available to everyone, and one can make as many copies of it as they want.

Currency is a word. They don't exchange word but numbers. You talk nonsense.

I hope you are sweating somewhere with your little nylon tie nailed to a counter in a bank with Warren Buffet farting in your mouth.

 ;D

You cannot insult me with things that you create in your imagination. All you do in that way is presenting yourself. But I think that nobody here is interested in your fantasies about Warren Buffet farting.

Everything... but I truly mean EVERYTHING you have written, including the little sources under the post and your Wordpress link with 2 google ads in there and some ''nice try'' trust links.... All that effort... all that garbage for a few cents of Adsense revenue...

You truly, are one of the weirdest people, with balls, I'd admit that, to post this utter el garbo on here. I don't even know where to start debunking your statements.

Oh you finally understand that a bitcoin is actually linked to the blockchain and therefore a unique thing that you can actually be in control of. Only because it did not exist before does not mean it is stupid.
Yes you can also make copies of a dollar bills as many times as you want, but it will not be linked to the original thing as you said yourself before. It will be worthless.

There's nothing to debunk. Truth cannot be debunked. But I'll admit. I'm pretty bad in presenting truth. Because if the truth about Bitcoin were presented the right way you people wouldn't even respond. Because you would realize, in what stupidity you all have been participating. And out of pure shame you would say nothing. You all would be quiet like a fish.

No, I finally read the Whitepaper. And realized that the whole thing is more stupid than I ever could have imagined.

You are George Soros's PA, & your anus is in tatters.

So, how do you comment the fact that you people are investing labour, services,  products, assets and other resources in order for Nakamoto's system to write down next to your addresses that you own a specific amount of bitcoins, although bitcoin (chain of digital signatures) is only one and free for everyone to download?  

I read op post and have discovered quiet a lot of things and I have arrived at a conclusion that ops is not ready to unlearn what he think and believe about Bitcoin and it creator Satoshi Nakamoto and ops havhase continually defended his point without making out time to read and absorb the views and data presented by others. That been said
What make Bitcoin real is:
A: Bitcoin is transferable from peer to peer
B: Bitcoin transactions is verifiable using the transaction ID on blockchain.
C: Bitcoin have a dollar value on exchanges
D:  Bitcoin is decentralized that is Bitcoin does not have a central control and that is why it is a public ledger.
If with all this facts can not convince ops of the true nature of Bitcoin than I will leave ops to believe whatever he want to believe.makes

Nakamoto disagrees with you. In the Whitepaper they defined bitcoin as a chain of digital signatures. That chain is recorded as a common record and freely available to everyone. Nobody transacts with it. It has no dollar value. That what you call a transaction is attribution of numerical value to an address and adding of it to the chain. It's just playing with numbers, not transacting.

It seems that you are not actually analyzing Nakamoto's product (bitcoin) itself, but just the whitepaper. Of course the whitepaper has generalizations which let you do things like divide by zero, because he whole point of making a whitepaper is to give a summary to non-technical laymen like you.

The fact that you think the whitepaper is the only substance of the Bitcoin blockchain shows the flaw in your thinking. And no amount of "you're mistaken, bitcoin is just a balance on the internet"'s is going to change that.

So, what is BTC? When you got for e.g. 2 attributed to your address, what did you become the owner of? What thing, what resource in the quantity of 2? Well you know ... nothing. Nakamoto gave you a system where you play with numbers. And then you imagine you're trasacting with something in the quantity of that numbers, with this BTC. But  there's no BTC. Hence the nonsensical definition of a coin in the Whitepaper.

There is a great article on the subject of BTC, HOLD or not to HODL on www.rimo.digital.
I don't think this is non-sense, it's the future of currency.

https://rimo.digital/2022/06/07/bitcoin-hodl/

HOLD what? What do you people hold? You have a system that attaches numeric values to addresses. So, what do you hold?

Well what we don't hold is pieces of paper that can easily be stolen, & burnt. Or pieces of metal that can easily be forged into a cutting implement for troll removal.

Our trade consensus & storage of value is far more secure, far more difficult to grasp, as you clearly demonstrate, & therefore far more difficult to snatch at. You will see the light some day, padowan. You will stop reaching for grubby materials & accept the might of the capital idea ;)

Yes, a car can be stolen, a house burned, land confiscated, a lottery ticket lost. But in the Bitcoin scheme, non of that can happen because there's nothing to steal, burn, confiscate, or lose. You have nothing. You enter a chain distributor scheme, supply an old participant with resources, and then wait for a new participant to do the same thing for you.

I am guessing from your comments you must be liking Fiat currency. Let's look at it, all Government across the world as most have argued too, printed some dead people on a piece of paper and tells you it is worth X and Y value and you agree with that but Bitcoin is difficult for you to understand and if the same Government for any reason tells you for the same X and Y reason, that, that printed paper has lost value you still agree to it. I wonder what is more of a false narrative.

Bitcoin is still illogical to humans. Some people don't even know what Bitcoin actually is.To them, Bitcoin is actually an absurd business.We all need to be aware of Bitcoin in real terms Bitcoin will one day make sense to everyone if everyone knows what Bitcoin is.

When people count or mark objects in mathematics, products in factories, goods in stores, debt in banking system, outcomes in lottery... they use numbers that are written digitally or on paper. There's nothing wrong with using paper. Or numbers.

In bitcoin, numbers are also used. But not for counting something. Numbers are simply created out of thin air and as such they tricked uneducated and naive people into a chain distributor scheme where they think they own some magical coins in the quantity of numbers attributed to their addresses. But they own nothing. You will find out what that means one day. In the meantime, go read some more conspiracy theories about evil banks.

Right, willing participants, so you are beginning to conceive of the idea of consensus & why the trust relationship inherent in economy as we know it is superior to anarchy, banditry, feudalism & barter. So once you get your head around the real nature of capital exchange, that it has very little to do with pieces of paper & metal, & everything to do with tacit agreements & social contracts that consent in good faith to a system of value exchange, you might now start to understand what decentralization in the internet age means, & stop wetting your bed because your banker daddy isn't going to carry quite the same social mystique he once did. Things improve, people exploiting the old ways lose out, get over it.