Title: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 05, 2022, 01:11:33 PM Hi guys!
Check it out the product that we are going to launch https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cryptoplatz-card More information on our site: https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/ (https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/) FAQ: https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/support (https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/support) https://static.wixstatic.com/media/25ca25_c0596fd7f0204f248b6c73111a27a5dd~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_307,h_500,al_c,q_85,enc_auto/app_card_500_white.png Crypto Platz Metal Card + Resistant to fire, water, bugs, shock wave and rust (better than a piece of paper) + Warranty forever + Encrypt your seed recovery phrase with AES-256 + Keep it offline + Open source app (if you want to use) + Easy to use with NFC (no more metal letters) Compare Crypto Platz Card with others options: https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/post/comparing-seed-phrase-backup (https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/post/comparing-seed-phrase-backup) Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: JinCheng214 on October 05, 2022, 02:02:46 PM Looks like fantastic project as you are implementing the way to protect the seed phrase.
Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: dkbit98 on October 05, 2022, 02:03:00 PM Check it out the product that we are going to launch How exactly do we enter words into this Crypto Platz Metal Card?If this is done only with your app in digital form with encryption, that means we probably can't recover seed words in any other way, so I see this a single point of failure. I like that stainless steel is used, but I personally prefer entering seed words directly in physical form with engraving, and I think there are other cards that work in similar way like yours. Current price of $100 is to high for me, until I see some stress testing and code review. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 05, 2022, 02:49:25 PM Check it out the product that we are going to launch How exactly do we enter words into this Crypto Platz Metal Card?If this is done only with your app in digital form with encryption, that means we probably can't recover seed words in any other way, so I see this a single point of failure. I like that stainless steel is used, but I personally prefer entering seed words directly in physical form with engraving, and I think there are other cards that work in similar way like yours. Current price of $100 is to high for me, until I see some stress testing and code review. Hi I understand your concern, but let me explain: 1) You can use any app like (NFC tools) to use our card (it is industry standard) to write and read information stored on the card 2) CryptoPlatz app will be open source, so anyone can download and use it. For now, it is in test, so please take a look on this video https://youtu.be/KRzsZbiBLVI (https://youtu.be/KRzsZbiBLVI) There are similar apps, but they are cryptocurrency wallet. CryptoPlatz it is not a wallet, it is a storage to save you seed recovery phrase. CryptoPlatz it is compatible with Trezor, Ledger, Exodus, TrustWallet and any other wallet that demand you to save the seed recovery phrase on a paper. Thank you for your view, help us a lot! Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 05, 2022, 02:55:58 PM Looks like fantastic project as you are implementing the way to protect the seed phrase. Thank you! ;D Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: dkbit98 on October 05, 2022, 02:57:41 PM You can use any app like (NFC tools) to use our card (it is industry standard) to write and read information stored on the card Ok that is better, but I am careful with anything that uses NFC, that is just short range antenna, so in theory it can be hacked.For now, it is in test, so please take a look on this video Card on this video doesn't look like it's made from stainless steel to me.I would remove word Crypto from card or add something like CP shortcut with logo, to avoid getting attention from bad people. There are similar apps, but they are cryptocurrency wallet. CryptoPlatz it is not a wallet, it is a storage to save you seed recovery phrase. CryptoPlatz it is compatible with Trezor, Ledger, Exodus, TrustWallet and any other wallet that demand you to save the seed recovery phrase on a paper. No, I am sure Satochip/Satodime/SeedKeeer and one other company (can't remember the name) have cards who can be used only for storing recovery phrase.Maybe they are not made from stainless steel but they work in similar way like Crypto Platz. PS Please lock your other topic. There is no need to have multiple topics with same content in forum. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: PawGo on October 05, 2022, 03:02:18 PM CryptoPlatz it is compatible with Trezor, Ledger, Exodus, TrustWallet and any other wallet that demand you to save the seed recovery phrase on a paper. What makes it compatible with wallet or not? In my opinion you just use NFC to transfer some data to the card (so you have NFC chip in/on the card) and as it could be any data, it has nothing to do with BIP39 compability. And as I understand, the same application is needed to read from NFC chip and restore the content, right? That would be very very very risky. Now, on market we have in general Tile trackers and Apple AirTags. In the past there was also TrackR - one year ago they stopped supporting their product, removed apps from the mobile stores and suddenly all the products they sold during last years became a plastic junk. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: r_victory on October 05, 2022, 03:06:12 PM I agree that there are other cards with the same purpose, as mentioned above, but the big difference here is the idea of an unbreakable, stainless, resistant, and durable "card". Am I right?
Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: PawGo on October 05, 2022, 03:28:43 PM Looking at that example page: https://www.shopnfc.com/en/content/6-nfc-tags-specs
Would you tell which kind of tag do you use? How about data retention, could you guarantee the data will be “safe” after 11 years? Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 05, 2022, 05:11:22 PM Looking at that example page: https://www.shopnfc.com/en/content/6-nfc-tags-specs Would you tell which kind of tag do you use? How about data retention, could you guarantee the data will be “safe” after 11 years? Hi Thank you for your question, this help us a lot! We are using NTAG424 from NXP, industry leader on segment. The technical specification is in https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/support I'm copying here: This is the specification of Crypto Platz card: NFC Chip: NXP NTAG424 DNA NFC Standard: SO/IEC 14443-A NFC Forum: Type 4 Universal Compatibility: Yes UID (Unique ID): 7 bytes Weight: 6g - like a credit card. Size: 85.5mm X 54mm X 0.84mm (3.37 inches x 2.16 inches x 0.034 inches) - like a credit card. Total memory: 416 bytes Available Memory: 256 bytes Communication Rate: 848 kbit/s Data Encryption: AES-256 File system compliant with ISO 7816-4 Write Endurance minimum: 200,000 cycles Data Retention minimum: 50 years Material: Metal stainless Temperature: -55 +125 °C (-67 +302 °F) Supporting Secure Unique NFC Message (SUN), which enable security and encryption, such as: advanced anti-counterfeiting, secured sensitive data applications, secure login and authentication. Compatible with all NFC Smartphones, NFC Tablets, and ISO14443-A NFC Readers. Data sheet: https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/data-sheet/NT4H2421Gx.pdf Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 05, 2022, 05:25:26 PM You can use any app like (NFC tools) to use our card (it is industry standard) to write and read information stored on the card Ok that is better, but I am careful with anything that uses NFC, that is just short range antenna, so in theory it can be hacked.For now, it is in test, so please take a look on this video Card on this video doesn't look like it's made from stainless steel to me.I would remove word Crypto from card or add something like CP shortcut with logo, to avoid getting attention from bad people. There are similar apps, but they are cryptocurrency wallet. CryptoPlatz it is not a wallet, it is a storage to save you seed recovery phrase. CryptoPlatz it is compatible with Trezor, Ledger, Exodus, TrustWallet and any other wallet that demand you to save the seed recovery phrase on a paper. No, I am sure Satochip/Satodime/SeedKeeer and one other company (can't remember the name) have cards who can be used only for storing recovery phrase.Maybe they are not made from stainless steel but they work in similar way like Crypto Platz. PS Please lock your other topic. There is no need to have multiple topics with same content in forum. Hi, I understand your question, thank you for that, it help us a lot, let me share my view: Abou this: "Ok that is better, but I am careful with anything that uses NFC, that is just short range antenna, so in theory it can be hacked." 1) We use NTAG424 that is focus in security 2) The information (seed) is encrypted with AES-256 (same of Bitcoin) 3) You can put the card inside a RFID/NFC Blocker (We will provide that, thank you) 4) If somebody put the hands in you paper or cryptosteel, he can read and stole your crypto. But if you store your seed in CryptoPlatz Card, he can't ready and stole, because is encrypted. "Card on this video doesn't look like it's made from stainless steel to me." 1) Yes, you are correct. This is a prototype in PVC. Because that we are on https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cryptoplatz-card to manufactory in metal stainless. About competitors I agree with you too. I will lock the other topic, tnks. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: seoincorporation on October 05, 2022, 05:38:59 PM After reading about the card i see it's only for storage and we can't use it to spend or deposit bitcoins. The main idea is to save a passphrase, mnemonic, or passwords. And it has a limit of 888 characters.
To access to the data we need the APP and the password, if we forget the password then all our data will be gone. From my point of view it doesn't worth to spend money on a hardware to storage data with a password, there are a lot of ways to do that. Even we can use PGP to encrypt any data and then Decrypt it with a key. I don't say the product is bad, it has some great features, but if i will have a crypto card i would use one that allows me to make payments. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 05, 2022, 05:50:04 PM CryptoPlatz it is compatible with Trezor, Ledger, Exodus, TrustWallet and any other wallet that demand you to save the seed recovery phrase on a paper. What makes it compatible with wallet or not? In my opinion you just use NFC to transfer some data to the card (so you have NFC chip in/on the card) and as it could be any data, it has nothing to do with BIP39 compability. And as I understand, the same application is needed to read from NFC chip and restore the content, right? That would be very very very risky. Now, on market we have in general Tile trackers and Apple AirTags. In the past there was also TrackR - one year ago they stopped supporting their product, removed apps from the mobile stores and suddenly all the products they sold during last years became a plastic junk. Remember, our app will be open source on GitHub, so anyone can read and copy. But more important, if you know the password used to encrypt the data (seed), you can decrypt using AES-256 algorithm. So you don't need our app, it just exist just to be easy to use. :D Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 05, 2022, 06:11:15 PM After reading about the card i see it's only for storage and we can't use it to spend or deposit bitcoins. The main idea is to save a passphrase, mnemonic, or passwords. And it has a limit of 888 characters. To access to the data we need the APP and the password, if we forget the password then all our data will be gone. From my point of view it doesn't worth to spend money on a hardware to storage data with a password, there are a lot of ways to do that. Even we can use PGP to encrypt any data and then Decrypt it with a key. I don't say the product is bad, it has some great features, but if i will have a crypto card i would use one that allows me to make payments. Hi Yes, you are right. The card is not to spend crypto, there is another options to this, like Coinbase Card and Binance Card. CryptoPlatz Card it is to save you passphrase or mnemonic on a device more resistant than a piece of paper. The password is optional, if you use, will be encrypted. You can use PGP and others ways, you are right again. But CryptoPlatz App are focus on the end user, that need to keep his "seed passphrase" store safe, but don't have the skills to do this alone. Let me know, where you save your passphrase today, on a paper? Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: AB de Royse777 on October 05, 2022, 09:55:05 PM Let me know, where you save your passphrase today, on a paper? I don't think anyone with crypto for long time is going to have their passphrase only in a piece of paper or in digital format with single point of access. CryptoPlatz Card it is to save you passphrase or mnemonic on a device more resistant than a piece of paper. What benefit does it bring over saving passphrase on a metal plat (https://www.google.com/search?q=bitcoin+wallet+seed+metal+tray&sxsrf=ALiCzsYpY_X8yuZDUUuOWW_ANULzzYjUcg:1665006681249&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjogKOeicr6AhVtT2wGHb6fDXAQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1536&bih=726&dpr=1.25) or any other fire resistance methods available? Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 05, 2022, 10:43:27 PM Let me know, where you save your passphrase today, on a paper? I don't think anyone with crypto for long time is going to have their passphrase only in a piece of paper or in digital format with single point of access. CryptoPlatz Card it is to save you passphrase or mnemonic on a device more resistant than a piece of paper. What benefit does it bring over saving passphrase on a metal plat (https://www.google.com/search?q=bitcoin+wallet+seed+metal+tray&sxsrf=ALiCzsYpY_X8yuZDUUuOWW_ANULzzYjUcg:1665006681249&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjogKOeicr6AhVtT2wGHb6fDXAQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1536&bih=726&dpr=1.25) or any other fire resistance methods available? I agree with you, it is important to have more than one backup of seed recovery phrase When compare with metal plat, there are a lot of benefit, but the most important is you can save the passphrase encrypted with AES-256. So if anyone put the hands on the card, they can't read the passphrase. Take a look in the post comparing the pros and cons: https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/post/safe-guard-your-crypto-assets-with-fool-proof-seed-phrase-storage-1 https://static.wixstatic.com/media/25ca25_a9bb756c121d4f05ac282ab6793706e7~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_740,h_1130,al_c,q_90,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/25ca25_a9bb756c121d4f05ac282ab6793706e7~mv2.png Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: SFR10 on October 06, 2022, 07:23:28 AM + Warranty forever I don't think I've ever seen any manufacturer that offers such a thing, so that's nice for a change but if I understood everything correctly, we shouldn't solely rely on Crypto Platz [e.g. if someone steals it, we have nothing to use for the decryption process (I do know we can purchase multiple metal cards but unfortunately, it costs a lot and it seems there's no discount for getting multiple cards)] and it'd be best if it's used in conjunction with other known methods [not just multiple copies of the same form of backup].
The password is optional, if you use, will be encrypted. Am I correct in assuming that without the password, anyone that gets their hands on the metal card in question, can easily decrypt or rather access the information that's stored in it?Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: PawGo on October 06, 2022, 07:51:27 AM The password is optional, if you use, will be encrypted. Am I correct in assuming that without the password, anyone that gets their hands on the metal card in question, can easily decrypt or rather access the information that's stored in it?The question is also what is stored. Is it a plain text (words) or for example entropy (as seed words <-> entropy are exchangeable). But it would require an algorithm inside the application which would "understand" the seed words (verify checksum etc). And I suppose it would not support seeds other than BIP39, maybe would be even limited to English dictionary. Much simpler would be to store any text provided by user, without parsing it. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 06, 2022, 12:17:52 PM + Warranty forever I don't think I've ever seen any manufacturer that offers such a thing, so that's nice for a change but if I understood everything correctly, we shouldn't solely rely on Crypto Platz [e.g. if someone steals it, we have nothing to use for the decryption process (I do know we can purchase multiple metal cards but unfortunately, it costs a lot and it seems there's no discount for getting multiple cards)] and it'd be best if it's used in conjunction with other known methods [not just multiple copies of the same form of backup].
The password is optional, if you use, will be encrypted. Am I correct in assuming that without the password, anyone that gets their hands on the metal card in question, can easily decrypt or rather access the information that's stored in it?Hi I agree with you, better to have multiple options to backup. Without the password, anyone that gets their hands on the card, can read the information (in this case works like cryptosteel) Good to know you like the warranty forever. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: dkbit98 on October 06, 2022, 01:04:52 PM If somebody put the hands in you paper or cryptosteel, he can read and stole your crypto. But if you store your seed in CryptoPlatz Card, he can't ready and stole, because is encrypted. Yes, but they can't have my coins if I have one or more strong passphrases on top of my paper or metal plate.CryptoPlatz is encrypted, but if customer used weak password that it can be hacked and extracted by someone who knows how to do it. I am not saying CryptoPlatzdon't have some advantages, but it's certainly not universally perfect solution. The password is optional, if you use, will be encrypted. Wait a minute, if password is only optional than there is no real difference compared to regular paper or metal plate.Yes, you are correct. This is a prototype in PVC. Because that we are on https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cryptoplatz-card to manufactory in metal stainless. I guess you could create some free campaign or beta testing for this prototype PVC cards, and if everything works fine you could probably collect funds easier on indiegogo.Problem I have with stainless steel material over NFC chip is that it could block the antenna signal and not work in the real life. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: AB de Royse777 on October 06, 2022, 03:02:38 PM certainly not universally perfect solution. I don't think there is any universally perfect solution. We all try and give the best. While I don't understand everything that OP is trying to do but I feel that he is trying something on top of the existing options we have. Every good initiative worth trying. Take a look in the post comparing the pros and cons: https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/post/safe-guard-your-crypto-assets-with-fool-proof-seed-phrase-storage-1 https://i.ibb.co/hB7jP5Z/Screenshot-1.png I was looking at the differences. These comparisons between a software run device and a piece of metal is actually not relevant at all. A metal really does not need to have encrypted. With a cleaver combination someone easily can hide some information which even if it ends up to the wrong guy still they can not get the idea of what was there. In a metal sheet it's obviously does not make sense to have password. Well nothing has forever warranty or guarantee Open source of course nothing to do with a piece of metal. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 07, 2022, 11:50:55 AM The password is optional, if you use, will be encrypted. Am I correct in assuming that without the password, anyone that gets their hands on the metal card in question, can easily decrypt or rather access the information that's stored in it?The question is also what is stored. Is it a plain text (words) or for example entropy (as seed words <-> entropy are exchangeable). But it would require an algorithm inside the application which would "understand" the seed words (verify checksum etc). And I suppose it would not support seeds other than BIP39, maybe would be even limited to English dictionary. Much simpler would be to store any text provided by user, without parsing it. Hi The CryptoPlatz App and Card (vault) accept any text (passwords, mnemonics, 12 words, 24 words, bip39...) in any language (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese...). If you use a password to encrypt, the text will be encypted with AES-256. Does not matter what text is it. If somebody put the hands in you paper or cryptosteel, he can read and stole your crypto. But if you store your seed in CryptoPlatz Card, he can't ready and stole, because is encrypted. The password is optional, if you use, will be encrypted. Wait a minute, if password is only optional than there is no real difference compared to regular paper or metal plate.Yes, you are correct. This is a prototype in PVC. Because that we are on https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cryptoplatz-card to manufactory in metal stainless. I guess you could create some free campaign or beta testing for this prototype PVC cards, and if everything works fine you could probably collect funds easier on indiegogo.Problem I have with stainless steel material over NFC chip is that it could block the antenna signal and not work in the real life. Quote Yes, but they can't have my coins if I have one or more strong passphrases on top of my paper or metal plate. CryptoPlatz is encrypted, but if customer used weak password that it can be hacked and extracted by someone who knows how to do it. I am not saying CryptoPlatzdon't have some advantages, but it's certainly not universally perfect solution. I agree with you, it is not the best solution. Quote Wait a minute, if password is only optional than there is no real difference compared to regular paper or metal plate. If you not use password, will be like a metal plate. If you use a strong password, will be equal metal plate and encrypted. Remember, we convert the password in MD5 hash, so the password will always have 128 bits and 32 characters. Quote I guess you could create some free campaign or beta testing for this prototype PVC cards, and if everything works fine you could probably collect funds easier on indiegogo. Good idea! We are working to produce 20 cards in PVC with the logo and testing on the app. So next step, is to send for somebody that want to test certainly not universally perfect solution. I don't think there is any universally perfect solution. We all try and give the best. While I don't understand everything that OP is trying to do but I feel that he is trying something on top of the existing options we have. Every good initiative worth trying. Take a look in the post comparing the pros and cons: https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/post/safe-guard-your-crypto-assets-with-fool-proof-seed-phrase-storage-1 https://i.ibb.co/hB7jP5Z/Screenshot-1.png I was looking at the differences. These comparisons between a software run device and a piece of metal is actually not relevant at all. A metal really does not need to have encrypted. With a cleaver combination someone easily can hide some information which even if it ends up to the wrong guy still they can not get the idea of what was there. In a metal sheet it's obviously does not make sense to have password. Well nothing has forever warranty or guarantee Open source of course nothing to do with a piece of metal. I agree with you, but save encrypted it is a good feature. But, if somebody don't want to encrypt, he can save in plain text, like metal plate. We have published our open source code on GitHub https://github.com/cryptoplatz-vault/cryptoplatz There is a link on website too for the GitHub https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/ Transparency + liberty of choice! ;) Hi I need your help again from all of you. What do you think will be a good price to sell? Our plain is to sell for $ 100,00 But we would like to know your opinion. If we change the Indiegogo campaign for example to $ 50,00 are you going to buy on Indiegogo today? [moderator's note: consecutive posts merged] Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: Mbitr on October 07, 2022, 02:15:38 PM Hi I need your help again from all of you. What do you think will be a good price to sell? Our plain is to sell for $ 100,00 But we would like to know your opinion. If we change the Indiegogo campaign for example to $ 50,00 are you going to buy on Indiegogo today? I would have a good look at a few factors - 1. Costs - production, postage, website, wages, advertising and anything thing else - don’t forget anything ! 2. Your DIRECT competitors prices 3. Future of the company and product - will you be producing version 2, limited editions etc Have you produced a business plan? If not, do one - it may sound boring, but it will help. Hope this helps and importantly, don’t sell yourself short :) Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 07, 2022, 03:44:46 PM Hi I need your help again from all of you. What do you think will be a good price to sell? Our plain is to sell for $ 100,00 But we would like to know your opinion. If we change the Indiegogo campaign for example to $ 50,00 are you going to buy on Indiegogo today? I would have a good look at a few factors - 1. Costs - production, postage, website, wages, advertising and anything thing else - don’t forget anything ! 2. Your DIRECT competitors prices 3. Future of the company and product - will you be producing version 2, limited editions etc Have you produced a business plan? If not, do one - it may sound boring, but it will help. Hope this helps and importantly, don’t sell yourself short :) Hi Mbitr Thank you for your advice! You are correct! Best www.cryptoplatz.ch Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: AB de Royse777 on October 07, 2022, 03:57:56 PM OP it's better if you compile all response in a single post rather than making several posts for several responses. Like you did 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5416028.msg61078578#msg61078578), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5416028.msg61078636#msg61078636), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5416028.msg61078692#msg61078692), 4 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5416028.msg61078818#msg61078818). We all are abide by some unofficial rules which you will find here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0
Anyway good luck with your project. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 07, 2022, 07:01:39 PM OP it's better if you compile all response in a single post rather than making several posts for several responses. Like you did 1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5416028.msg61078578#msg61078578), 2 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5416028.msg61078636#msg61078636), 3 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5416028.msg61078692#msg61078692), 4 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5416028.msg61078818#msg61078818). We all are abide by some unofficial rules which you will find here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0 Anyway good luck with your project. ok I will Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: dkbit98 on October 08, 2022, 08:50:57 PM I need your help again from all of you. What do you think will be a good price to sell? Our plain is to sell for $ 100,00 But we would like to know your opinion. I don't know how much is production cost going to be to assemble Crypto Platz, and that is probably depending on location of country you are ordering all the source materials.If we change the Indiegogo campaign for example to $ 50,00 are you going to buy on Indiegogo today? For Indiegogo campaign price of $50 would be much better, and it's comparable with stainless steel plates and some other cards that store seed words. I am not sure if I would pre-order this card right now before I see some early testing reviews, but you could give reduced price and start spreading the word on twitter and social media. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 09, 2022, 07:26:05 AM I need your help again from all of you. What do you think will be a good price to sell? Our plain is to sell for $ 100,00 But we would like to know your opinion. I don't know how much is production cost going to be to assemble Crypto Platz, and that is probably depending on location of country you are ordering all the source materials.If we change the Indiegogo campaign for example to $ 50,00 are you going to buy on Indiegogo today? For Indiegogo campaign price of $50 would be much better, and it's comparable with stainless steel plates and some other cards that store seed words. I am not sure if I would pre-order this card right now before I see some early testing reviews, but you could give reduced price and start spreading the word on twitter and social media. Now we are giving 50% discount exclusive for Indiegogo campaign, CryptoPlatz Vault now is €49,00. The campaign will finish in less than 30 days. Thank you for advices Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: n0nce on October 09, 2022, 06:56:22 PM + Resistant to fire, water, bugs, shock wave and rust (better than a piece of paper) My reply to this would be that you can have multiple pieces of paper / multiple backups for just pennies, so if one backup location burns down, you have another backup elsewhere. That's good practice anyway (e.g. in a flood, that metal plate can easily be flushed out of your home), but too expensive to do with expensive metal cards.+ Easy to use with NFC (no more metal letters) Now, here it gets tricky. How do I write my seed phrase to this device, that is supposed to be super offline and super safe, whilst at the same time needing to use my phone for the process? I will never ever type my seed phrase into a phone app, so what to do?On paper, I can write with a pen, and even a USB thumb drive is writeable by a live Tails OS. Would I need an external NFC transceiver for my offline PC? Does such thing exist and if so, is that open-source in its hardware and software / drivers? Compare Crypto Platz Card with others options: Unfortunately, offline.https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/post/comparing-seed-phrase-backup (https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/post/comparing-seed-phrase-backup) Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 09, 2022, 10:45:40 PM + Resistant to fire, water, bugs, shock wave and rust (better than a piece of paper) My reply to this would be that you can have multiple pieces of paper / multiple backups for just pennies, so if one backup location burns down, you have another backup elsewhere. That's good practice anyway (e.g. in a flood, that metal plate can easily be flushed out of your home), but too expensive to do with expensive metal cards.+ Easy to use with NFC (no more metal letters) Now, here it gets tricky. How do I write my seed phrase to this device, that is supposed to be super offline and super safe, whilst at the same time needing to use my phone for the process? I will never ever type my seed phrase into a phone app, so what to do?On paper, I can write with a pen, and even a USB thumb drive is writeable by a live Tails OS. Would I need an external NFC transceiver for my offline PC? Does such thing exist and if so, is that open-source in its hardware and software / drivers? Compare Crypto Platz Card with others options: Unfortunately, offline.https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/post/comparing-seed-phrase-backup (https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/post/comparing-seed-phrase-backup) Hi I agree with you, better to have more than one card. Depends of how much cryptocurrency you have, $ 49 by card make sense. For now our app is only for iOS and Android, but soon we will have a version for desktop. So you can use any NFC reader/writer to connect on your desktop. And yes, you can do all operations offline, airplane mode for example (we recommend this on app) You need to decide what is better, leave your current seed only on paper or type the seed on CryptoPlatz App to save encrypted on the card, offline. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: dkbit98 on October 10, 2022, 04:42:36 PM For now our app is only for iOS and Android, but soon we will have a version for desktop. So you can use any NFC reader/writer to connect on your desktop. n0nce has a point, people don't want to be online at all when they are dealing with their seed words.Device with CryptoPlatz app needs to be online to download and install it, so desktop app is must have option for everyone. Airplane mode but most people could make a mistake and just used app online. Can you tell me what android version is oldest supported by your app? Older phones might not be able to install app so that could be one more issue I faced before with other Android apps. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 10, 2022, 06:20:59 PM For now our app is only for iOS and Android, but soon we will have a version for desktop. So you can use any NFC reader/writer to connect on your desktop. n0nce has a point, people don't want to be online at all when they are dealing with their seed words.Device with CryptoPlatz app needs to be online to download and install it, so desktop app is must have option for everyone. Airplane mode but most people could make a mistake and just used app online. Can you tell me what android version is oldest supported by your app? Older phones might not be able to install app so that could be one more issue I faced before with other Android apps. You can find the list of compatible Android and iOS smartphones on the faq: https://www.cryptoplatz.ch/support But I will paste here: Acer Cloud Mobile Acer E320 Liquid Express Acer Liquid Glow Acer Liquid S2 Adlink IMX-3000 Alcatel Idol 4 Alcatel One Touch 922 Alcatel One Touch 996 Alcatel Onetouch Idol 2 Alcatel Onetouch Idol 2 Mini S Alcatel Onetouch Idol 2S Alcatel Onetouch Pop Fit Apple iPhone 11 and iPhone 11 Pro Apple iPhone 12, iPhone 12 mini, iPhone 12 Pro, iPhone 12 Pro Max Apple iPhone 13, iPhone 13 mini, iPhone 13 Pro, iPhone 13 Pro Max Apple iPhone 6 and iPhone 6 Plus Apple iPhone 6s and iPhone 6s Plus Apple iPhone 7 and iPhone 7 Plus Apple iPhone 8 and iPhone 8 Plus Apple iPhone SE Apple iPhone X Apple iPhone XR Apple iPhone Xs and iPhone Xs Max Apple Watch Archos New Diamond Asmaitha Sruta 7″ Tablet Asus MeMO Pad 8 (ME581CL) Asus Padfone 2 Asus Padfone Infinity Asus Vivo Tab Asus Vivo Tab RT Asus VivoTab Smart Asus ZenFone 2 Asus Zenfone 4 Asus Zenfone 5 Asus Zenfone 6 BBK Vivo Xplay Benq T80 BlackBerry Bold 9790 BlackBerry Bold 9900/9930 BlackBerry Classic BlackBerry Curve 9350/9360/9370 BlackBerry Curve 9380 BlackBerry Dtek50 BlackBerry Dtek60 BlackBerry KEY2 BlackBerry KEYone BlackBerry Motion BlackBerry Passport BlackBerry PlayBook BlackBerry Priv BlackBerry Q10 BlackBerry Q5 BlackBerry Z10 BlackBerry Z30 Blackview BV9800 Blackview BV9800 Pro Blu Life Pure XL BQ Aquaris M5.5 BWC ToughSlate 7″ C-Mii 1 C-Mii 3 Casio DT-X8 Casio G’zOne CA-201L Casio IT-800 Cat S60 Cetrix CB250 Cetrix CD661 Cetrix CT973G Cetrix CV300 Dell Venue 11 Pro DLI 9000 Doogee S60 and S60 Lite Doogee S70 and S70 Lite Doogee S80 and S80 Lite Elephone P9000 Essential PH-1 Faea F1 Faea F2 Faea F2S Fairphone 3 Famoco FX-100 Firefox OS Flame Fujitsu Arrows A Fujitsu Arrows µ F-07D Fujitsu Arrows Kiss Fujitsu Arrows Tab Fujitsu Arrows V G.To N800 Gentag GT-601v2 Gionee Elife E7 Google Nexus 10 Google Nexus 5 Google Nexus 5X Google Nexus 6 Google Nexus 6P Google Nexus 7 (2013) Google Nexus 9 Google Pixel Google Pixel 2 and Google Pixel 2 XL Google Pixel XL Google Project Tango tablet Hike X1 Hike X1D Hisense Sero 7 Pro HP Elitebook Revolve HP Elitepad 900 HTC Desire 500 HTC Desire 510 HTC Desire 610 HTC Desire 620 HTC Desire 816 HTC Desire C HTC Desire Eye HTC Droid DNA/HTC J Butterfly HTC Droid Incredible 4G LTE HTC Evo 4G LTE HTC First HTC Incredible HTC Mini HTC One HTC One M8 HTC One M9 HTC One Max HTC One SV HTC One VX HTC One X/XL HTC Ruby/Amaze 4G HTC U Play HTC U Ultra HTC U11 HTC Windows Phone 8X Huawei Ascend G300 Huawei Ascend G6 4G Huawei Ascend G600 Huawei Ascend G7 Huawei Ascend Mate 7 Huawei Ascend P2 Huawei Ascend P7 Huawei Ascend Y201 Huawei G620S Huawei Honor 6 Huawei Honor 8 Huawei Honor 9 Huawei Mate 10 and Huawei Mate 10 Pro Huawei Mate 8 Huawei Mate 9 Huawei P10 Huawei P10 Plus Huawei P8 Huawei Sonic/Turkcell T20 Huawei TalkBand B1 iBerry Auxus Nuclea N2 iOcean X8 Jolla by Jolla Kuoziro FT701W NFC Tablet Kyocera Duraforce Pro Kyocera Hydro Elite Kyocera Hydro Icon Kyocera Hydro Vibe Kyocera Torque Lenovo K800 Lenovo ThinkPad Tablet 2 Lenovo Vibe X3 LG Fx0 LG G Flex LG G Flex 2 LG G Pro 2 LG G2 LG G3 LG G3 Beat/LG G3 S LG G4 LG G5 LG G6 LG G7 ThinQ LG Intuition LG KU380-NFC LG L50 LG L70 LG L90 LG Mach LG Optimus 3D Max LG Optimus 4X HD LG Optimus Elite LG Optimus G LG Optimus L5 LG Optimus L7 LG Optimus LTE LG Optimus LTE Tag LG Optimus Net LG Optimus Vu LG Phoenix 2 LG T530 Ego LG V10 LG V20 LG Viper LG Volt Lumigon T2 Lumigon T2 HD Lumigon T3 Megafon Mint Meizu MX3 Meizu MX4 Pro Microsoft Lumia 640 Microsoft Lumia 650 Microsoft Lumia 950 Microsoft Lumia 950 XL Moto G5S/Moto G5S Plus Motorola Droid Maxx Motorola Droid Mini Motorola Droid Razr Motorola Droid Razr HD Motorola Droid Razr M Motorola Droid Razr M 4G LTE Motorola Droid Razr Maxx HD Motorola Droid Turbo Motorola Droid Turbo 2/Moto X Force Motorola Droid Ultra Motorola MC75A HF Motorola Moto E4 Motorola Moto G5 Plus Motorola Moto G6/Moto G6 Plus Motorola Moto G7/Moto G7 Plus Motorola Moto G8 Plus Motorola Moto X Motorola Moto X Play Motorola Moto X4 Motorola Moto Z Motorola Moto Z Play Motorola Moto Z2 Force Motorola Moto Z2 Play Motorola One Action Motorola One Vision Motorola One Zoom Motorola Photon Q 4G LTE Motorola Razr D3 Motorola Razr i/MT788 MTS 975 Nextbit Robin Nokia 3 Nokia 5 Nokia 6 Nokia 603 Nokia 700 Nokia 701 Nokia 801T Nokia 808 PureView Nokia C7/Astound Nokia G50 Nokia Lumia 1020 Nokia Lumia 1520 Nokia Lumia 2520 Nokia Lumia 610 NFC Nokia Lumia 620 Nokia Lumia 720 Nokia Lumia 730/735 Nokia Lumia 820 Nokia Lumia 830 Nokia Lumia 920 Nokia Lumia 925 Nokia Lumia 928 Nokia Lumia 930 Nokia Lumia Icon Nokia N9 Nokia Oro OnePlus 3 OnePlus 5 OnePlus 5T OnePlus 6 OnePlus 7T OnePlus 8 and OnePlus 8 Pro OnePlus 8T OnePlus One Oppo Find 5 Oppo Find 7 Oppo N1 Oppo R15 Pro Orange Infinity 996 Orange San Diego OrientPhone P6 Plus Panasonic BizPad Panasonic Eluga Panasonic Eluga Power Pantech Discover Pantech Sky Vega LTE Pantech Sky Vega Racer Philips Xenium W336 Porsche Design Huawei Mate 10 Porsche Design P’9981 Porsche Design P’9982 Prada phone by LG 3.0 Razer Phone Razer Phone 2 Runbo X6 Samsung Ativ Odyssey Samsung Ativ S Neo Samsung Ativ SE Samsung Galaxy A3 Samsung Galaxy A3 (2016) Samsung Galaxy A3 (2017) Samsung Galaxy A5 (2016) Samsung Galaxy A5 (2017) Samsung Galaxy A7 (2016) Samsung Galaxy A7 (2017) Samsung Galaxy A7 (2018) Samsung Galaxy Ace 2 Samsung Galaxy Ace 4 LTE Samsung Galaxy Ace Style Samsung Galaxy Alpha Samsung Galaxy Avant Samsung Galaxy Axiom/Samsung Galaxy Admire 2 Samsung Galaxy C7 Samsung Galaxy C7 Pro Samsung Galaxy C9 Pro Samsung Galaxy Core 2 Samsung Galaxy Core Advance Samsung Galaxy Core LTE Samsung Galaxy Exhilarate Samsung Galaxy Express Samsung Galaxy Express 2 Samsung Galaxy Grand 2 LTE Samsung Galaxy Grand Prime Samsung Galaxy J5 Samsung Galaxy J7 Samsung Galaxy K Zoom Samsung Galaxy Light Samsung Galaxy Mega Samsung Galaxy Mini 2 Samsung Galaxy Note Samsung Galaxy Note 10/10+ Samsung Galaxy Note 3 Samsung Galaxy Note 4 Samsung Galaxy Note 5 Samsung Galaxy Note 8 Samsung Galaxy Note 9 Samsung Galaxy Note II Samsung Galaxy Note20 Ultra Samsung Galaxy Premier Samsung Galaxy Round Samsung Galaxy Rugby LTE/Pro Samsung Galaxy S Advance Samsung Galaxy S Blaze 4G Samsung Galaxy S II Samsung Galaxy S II Plus Samsung Galaxy S III Samsung Galaxy S III Mini Samsung Galaxy S21, S21 Plus and S21 Ultra Samsung Galaxy S22, S22+ and S22 Ultra Samsung Galaxy S4 Samsung Galaxy S4 Active Samsung Galaxy S4 Mini Samsung Galaxy S4 Zoom Samsung Galaxy S5 Samsung Galaxy S5 Active/Sport Samsung Galaxy S5 Mini Samsung Galaxy S6 Samsung Galaxy S6 Active Samsung Galaxy S6 Edge Samsung Galaxy S7 Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge Samsung Galaxy S8 Samsung Galaxy S8 Plus Samsung Galaxy Stratosphere II Samsung Galaxy Victory 4G LTE Samsung Galaxy Watch5 and Watch5 Pro Samsung Galaxy XCover Pro Samsung Galaxy Young Samsung Galaxy Z Flip Samsung Galaxy Z Flip4 Samsung Galaxy Z Fold3 Samsung Galaxy Z Fold4 Samsung S5230 NFC Samsung S5260 NFC Samsung SHW-A170K Samsung Wave 578 Samsung Wave M Samsung Wave Y Samsung Windows RT Ativ Tablet Samsung WP8 Ativ S Sharp Aquos Phone Serie Sharp Aquos Phone Zeta Sharp RW-T107 NFC Tablet Sharp RW-T110 NFC Tablet Smartisan T2 Sonim XP1301 Core NFC Sonim XPand NFC Sony Digital Paper DPT-RP1 Sony SWR10 SmartBand Sony Vaio Fit Sony Xperia Acro S Sony Xperia AX Sony Xperia C5 Ultra Sony Xperia E3 Dual Sony Xperia Ion Sony Xperia L Sony Xperia M Sony Xperia M2 Sony Xperia M5 Sony Xperia P Sony Xperia S Sony Xperia Sola Sony Xperia SP Sony Xperia T Sony Xperia T2 Ultra Sony Xperia Tablet Z Sony Xperia V Sony Xperia VL Sony Xperia XZ Premium Sony Xperia XZ1 Compact Sony Xperia XZs Sony Xperia Z Sony Xperia Z Ultra Sony Xperia Z1 Sony Xperia Z1 Compact Sony Xperia Z2 Sony Xperia Z2 Tablet Sony Xperia Z3 Sony Xperia Z3 Compact Sony Xperia Z5 Sony Xperia ZL Sony Xperia ZR TazTag TazPad TazTag TPH-One The Toughphone Defender THL 5000 Toughshield R-500 Toughshield T700 Turkcell MaxiPRO5 Turkcell T11/ZTE Racer II Turkcell T40 Umi Cross Umi X2S Umidigi X Vertu Constellation Vertu Ti Vodafone Smart 4 Power Vodafone Smart 4 Turbo Vodafone Smart III Xiaomi Mi 2A Xiaomi Mi 5 and Mi 5 Pro Xiaomi Mi Mix Xiaomi Mi Mix 2 Xiaomi Mi Note 2 Xiaomi Mi3 Xiaomi Poco X3 NFC Xolo X900 Yota Devices YotaPhone (2014) Yulong Coolpad 8870 NFC Zopo ZP998 ZTE Axon ZTE Blade II ZTE Flash ZTE GoTa GH800 ZTE Grand X IN ZTE Kis ZTE Nubia Z5 ZTE Orbit ZTE PF200 ZTE R233 ZTE Turkcell MaxiPLUS5 Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: dkbit98 on October 10, 2022, 06:55:32 PM You can find the list of compatible Android and iOS smartphones on the faq I was not talking about smartphone models, but about actual version of Android operating system supported :)Latest version of Android is 13, but is cryptoplatz supported for older Android OS 4 or 5? Reason I ask this is because I have some ancient Android smartphone I could use for this purpose. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: n0nce on October 10, 2022, 08:24:16 PM And yes, you can do all operations offline, airplane mode for example (we recommend this on app) Oh, that's a terrible idea of an 'offline computer'. Whatever device you use for any such endeavor, should be either booted off a live drive (CD or USB thumb drive) or destroyed / at least fully erased after the process, and before any radios are turned back on.How do you think criminals attack your device? Do you think a short downtime erases any viruses or spyware? Keyloggers and screenloggers continue logging - whether you're connected to the internet or not, and just do the telemetry when network connection comes back. It's a little bit disturbing that 'turning on airplane mode' is what springs to your mind when I talk about entering a seed phrase only on airgapped machines. In my opinion, the app should not even exist and the NFC transceiver should come by default. You could provide a modified version of Tails with NFC drivers and your own software preinstalled; though do make sure that it's all open-source, with reproducible builds. I'm slightly worried about the NFC device though: where you source it, whether it's trustable. Though I suppose if it's not plugged into anything other than the live-USB-booted computer, there's no way for it to do telemetry. You need to decide what is better, leave your current seed only on paper or type the seed on CryptoPlatz App to save encrypted on the card, offline. I'll be straight honest to you: Paper looks like the way better option here. Less fancy, but more simple and secure.Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 11, 2022, 04:39:01 PM And yes, you can do all operations offline, airplane mode for example (we recommend this on app) Oh, that's a terrible idea of an 'offline computer'. Whatever device you use for any such endeavor, should be either booted off a live drive (CD or USB thumb drive) or destroyed / at least fully erased after the process, and before any radios are turned back on.How do you think criminals attack your device? Do you think a short downtime erases any viruses or spyware? Keyloggers and screenloggers continue logging - whether you're connected to the internet or not, and just do the telemetry when network connection comes back. It's a little bit disturbing that 'turning on airplane mode' is what springs to your mind when I talk about entering a seed phrase only on airgapped machines. In my opinion, the app should not even exist and the NFC transceiver should come by default. You could provide a modified version of Tails with NFC drivers and your own software preinstalled; though do make sure that it's all open-source, with reproducible builds. I'm slightly worried about the NFC device though: where you source it, whether it's trustable. Though I suppose if it's not plugged into anything other than the live-USB-booted computer, there's no way for it to do telemetry. You need to decide what is better, leave your current seed only on paper or type the seed on CryptoPlatz App to save encrypted on the card, offline. I'll be straight honest to you: Paper looks like the way better option here. Less fancy, but more simple and secure.Have you used before Ledger app, Trust wallet app, Exodus app? All of this apps you use online on iOS or Android, and this apps ask you to save the seed on paper. The option that we are offering, is to save the seed encrypted and keep offline using open source app, with a industry standard chip NTAG424. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 11, 2022, 07:12:57 PM You can find the list of compatible Android and iOS smartphones on the faq I was not talking about smartphone models, but about actual version of Android operating system supported :)Latest version of Android is 13, but is cryptoplatz supported for older Android OS 4 or 5? Reason I ask this is because I have some ancient Android smartphone I could use for this purpose. Sorry, CryptoPlatz App is compatible with Android 4.1 and above Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: n0nce on October 11, 2022, 11:19:52 PM Have you used before Ledger app, Trust wallet app, Exodus app? All of this apps you use online on iOS or Android, and this apps ask you to save the seed on paper. Okay, so this device then is only really suited to backup seed phrases of hot wallets; that makes sense. As the seed has already been exposed to an online device, it makes no difference whether you enter it in another app one more time. I guess.The option that we are offering, is to save the seed encrypted and keep offline using open source app, with a industry standard chip NTAG424. Then the product is just not for me, and others who generate and back their seed phrases up without them touching an online device. PS: Please take a look at: Recently I noticed that a lot of new members don't know all the rules and I don't (usually) blame them since not all rules are written and even those written down can be overlooked by users who don't pay much attention to some stickies in select boards. Maybe they'll pay attention to this thread in which I'll try to list all the rules present on the forum. I'll provide sources (if I know of any) to where they are posted. The rules are in no particular order, just written as I found them although I'll try to keep the more general ones first. [...] 32. Posting multiple posts in a row (excluding bumps and reserved posts by the thread starter) is not allowed. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 13, 2022, 01:54:36 PM Have you used before Ledger app, Trust wallet app, Exodus app? All of this apps you use online on iOS or Android, and this apps ask you to save the seed on paper. Okay, so this device then is only really suited to backup seed phrases of hot wallets; that makes sense. As the seed has already been exposed to an online device, it makes no difference whether you enter it in another app one more time. I guess.The option that we are offering, is to save the seed encrypted and keep offline using open source app, with a industry standard chip NTAG424. Then the product is just not for me, and others who generate and back their seed phrases up without them touching an online device. PS: Please take a look at: Recently I noticed that a lot of new members don't know all the rules and I don't (usually) blame them since not all rules are written and even those written down can be overlooked by users who don't pay much attention to some stickies in select boards. Maybe they'll pay attention to this thread in which I'll try to list all the rules present on the forum. I'll provide sources (if I know of any) to where they are posted. The rules are in no particular order, just written as I found them although I'll try to keep the more general ones first. [...] 32. Posting multiple posts in a row (excluding bumps and reserved posts by the thread starter) is not allowed. When you use cold wallet devices, like Ledger and Trezor, the seed recovery phrase (12 words or 24 words) is "exposed" to an online device too, on mobile smartphone or computer. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: dkbit98 on October 13, 2022, 05:53:28 PM When you use cold wallet devices, like Ledger and Trezor, the seed recovery phrase (12 words or 24 words) is "exposed" to an online device too, on mobile smartphone or computer. No it's not exposed, and I can also connect hardware wallets to offline computer using Electrum wallet.In ledger devices seed phrases are stored in secure element and it never leaves there, unless you reset your device. Some hardware wallets like Passport, Keystone or ColdCard and air-gapped and they don't have cable connection with any devices. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: n0nce on October 13, 2022, 10:08:40 PM Have you used before Ledger app, Trust wallet app, Exodus app? All of this apps you use online on iOS or Android, and this apps ask you to save the seed on paper. Okay, so this device then is only really suited to backup seed phrases of hot wallets; that makes sense. As the seed has already been exposed to an online device, it makes no difference whether you enter it in another app one more time. I guess.The option that we are offering, is to save the seed encrypted and keep offline using open source app, with a industry standard chip NTAG424. Then the product is just not for me, and others who generate and back their seed phrases up without them touching an online device. PS: Please take a look at: Recently I noticed that a lot of new members don't know all the rules and I don't (usually) blame them since not all rules are written and even those written down can be overlooked by users who don't pay much attention to some stickies in select boards. Maybe they'll pay attention to this thread in which I'll try to list all the rules present on the forum. I'll provide sources (if I know of any) to where they are posted. The rules are in no particular order, just written as I found them although I'll try to keep the more general ones first. [...] 32. Posting multiple posts in a row (excluding bumps and reserved posts by the thread starter) is not allowed. When you use cold wallet devices, like Ledger and Trezor, the seed recovery phrase (12 words or 24 words) is "exposed" to an online device too, on mobile smartphone or computer. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 14, 2022, 12:40:59 PM The point is, nobody with more than 1 bitcoin prefer to leave 24 words on a piece of paper. So I will launch a challenge! I will sell 10 CryptoPlatz Vault with the seed recovery phrase of 1 Bitcoin, encrypted with CryptoPlatz App. The first man that decrypt the seed recovery phrase can take 1 Bitcoin for him. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: n0nce on October 14, 2022, 11:13:44 PM The point is, nobody with more than 1 bitcoin prefer to leave 24 words on a piece of paper. First you said that cryptoplatz is well suited to back up software wallets whose seed has already been exposed to an online device anyway (fair point, as I said).But now you claim that actually, people will want to use cryptoplatz when they have 1BTC or more in a wallet, since paper is not good enough? I personally don't believe anyone should store roughly $20,000 USD (at the time of writing) in a software wallet (except maybe exchanges since they need it for their operation). This means the two statements appear as contradictory. Most people should want to store +1BTC on a wallet that has been created on either an airgapped, offline PC or mayyybe on an airgapped hardware wallets; in both cases, the seed never left the device except being shown on screen, allowing the user to write it down on paper. Do keep in mind that they can easily do 10 copies of said paper and laminate them (waterproofing), to store in various locations. All offline, all without any security concerns. Why would such users want to now enter their very secure seed in a phone app? https://i.postimg.cc/fWPz3SLQ/image.jpg Sorry if I'm being harsh, but the concept makes no sense to me. Creating a seed phrase on a smart card? Maybe. Using a smart card to store a seed phrase that had been securely created on a different hardware device and requires typing it into an app? That makes really no sense. So I will launch a challenge! I will sell 10 CryptoPlatz Vault with the seed recovery phrase of 1 Bitcoin, encrypted with CryptoPlatz App. You missed the point, though. I never said it was insecure storing data on a smartcard chip or easy to extract from it. The first man that decrypt the seed recovery phrase can take 1 Bitcoin for him. Instead, my concern is typing out your seed into any software. Users should never need to type their seed in any program except for restoring a lost wallet, and do so on an offline, airgapped PC that runs its OS in RAM, and is completely wiped by rebooting. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 15, 2022, 04:01:31 AM The point is, nobody with more than 1 bitcoin prefer to leave 24 words on a piece of paper. First you said that cryptoplatz is well suited to back up software wallets whose seed has already been exposed to an online device anyway (fair point, as I said).But now you claim that actually, people will want to use cryptoplatz when they have 1BTC or more in a wallet, since paper is not good enough? I personally don't believe anyone should store roughly $20,000 USD (at the time of writing) in a software wallet (except maybe exchanges since they need it for their operation). This means the two statements appear as contradictory. Most people should want to store +1BTC on a wallet that has been created on either an airgapped, offline PC or mayyybe on an airgapped hardware wallets; in both cases, the seed never left the device except being shown on screen, allowing the user to write it down on paper. Do keep in mind that they can easily do 10 copies of said paper and laminate them (waterproofing), to store in various locations. All offline, all without any security concerns. Why would such users want to now enter their very secure seed in a phone app? https://i.postimg.cc/fWPz3SLQ/image.jpg Sorry if I'm being harsh, but the concept makes no sense to me. Creating a seed phrase on a smart card? Maybe. Using a smart card to store a seed phrase that had been securely created on a different hardware device and requires typing it into an app? That makes really no sense. So I will launch a challenge! I will sell 10 CryptoPlatz Vault with the seed recovery phrase of 1 Bitcoin, encrypted with CryptoPlatz App. You missed the point, though. I never said it was insecure storing data on a smartcard chip or easy to extract from it. The first man that decrypt the seed recovery phrase can take 1 Bitcoin for him. Instead, my concern is typing out your seed into any software. Users should never need to type their seed in any program except for restoring a lost wallet, and do so on an offline, airgapped PC that runs its OS in RAM, and is completely wiped by rebooting. I understand your point. How many crypto users have an offline pc just to work with the seed? Remember the guy from UK that lost his hard drive with thousand of Bitcoins and is try to find it on the public trash of the city? We need to create options to the users keep their Bitcoin safe, keep seed recovery phrase in small piece of paper, without encryptation is not a good option. Trust wallet app has more than 10 millions of download, this people already have exposed his seed on smartphone, a lot of then don’t save seed on paper, for laziness to write on a paper. We need help people to store their seed better. Some people will prefer an offline computer, others will prefer ledger and trezor (both already hacked), others will prefer app wallets like BitPay, Trust Wallet, Exodus. So CryptoPlatz Vault is not for all users, it is for someone that want to looking for a easy way to store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device to keep it safe. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: n0nce on October 15, 2022, 11:22:29 AM I understand your point. I don't think very many, but there are definitely a lot of hardware wallet users who can securely display their seed words directly on the device's screen and copy it to paper by hand. I wouldn't want them exposing their securely created and stored seeds to an online operating system with internet access and persistency, as it defeats the purpose of them purchasing the hardware wallet.How many crypto users have an offline pc just to work with the seed? Furthermore, I do think there needs to be more education and anyone with multiple Bitcoin should get themselves an offline PC just for working with seeds. Besides the fact that this doesn't need to be a separate device from what you already own. In case you're not familiar: https://tails.boum.org/ This boots off USB and lives in RAM, with Electrum preinstalled and no network. Remember the guy from UK that lost his hard drive with thousand of Bitcoins and is try to find it on the public trash of the city? Exactly: he had the keys on his hard drive. I'm saying people should do their backups on multiple instances of laminated paper or steel washers instead of relying on electronics.Cheap backup mechanisms that allow you to have redundancy at any budget. Buying 10 'cryptoplatz' devices is not an option for most. We need to create options to the users keep their Bitcoin safe, keep seed recovery phrase in small piece of paper, without encryptation is not a good option. Why is paper not a good option? Encryption just makes it more difficult to recover funds. If my heirs find my cleartext paper and steel seeds, they can restore them. If they find an encrypted plastic card, they could mistake it for an old credit card and throw it out.Not to mention that you can also encrypt a paper seed before writing it down. And hardware wallets like BitBox and Passport already create electronic, encrypted backups on microSD card, as well. In case you don't have a physically secure location for paper backups.. Trust wallet app has more than 10 millions of download, this people already have exposed his seed on smartphone, a lot of then don’t save seed on paper, for laziness to write on a paper. If they already exposed it, I already said, there is little additional risk entering it into one more application. However, do you think that someone who doesn't even bother writing the seed on paper, will go and buy a dedicated seed backup device?In my opinion, the money is better spent just buying a hardware wallet instead, transferring funds over and backing up on steel for 5 bucks. n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig [...]https://i.postimg.cc/QMNkXyjh/n0nce-stamps-0.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/bJyt0DZP/n0nce-stamps-1.jpg Very nicely readable 6mm letters (tape holds washer in place) | Prototypes & final version. Improved letter spacing & tolerances. https://i.postimg.cc/8JGddw9V/n0nce-stamp.gif (https://i.postimg.cc/76GBkWNb/n0nce-stamp.gif) This is pretty much how it works Backup pure material cost: 4€ Requirements: stamps ~20€, jig ~10€ Go big or go home! 30x10.5mm washers! 6mm tall letters Edit: Any size of washer and stamp is now possible using the openSCAD file I provide for free below. Enjoy! Some people will prefer an offline computer, others will prefer ledger and trezor (both already hacked), others will prefer app wallets like BitPay, Trust Wallet, Exodus. So CryptoPlatz Vault is not for all users, it is for someone that want to looking for a easy way to store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device to keep it safe. It's true that there are different products for different people, I still just don't see the target user for cryptoplatz.Your title says: 'help us! :o' and that's what I'm trying to do. So you're saying the target user is someone 'looking for a easy way to store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device to keep it safe'. Let's assume 2 users, for sake of simplicity, this should cover 99% of Bitcoin users. Software wallet user (1) Why does this user need to 'store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device' if it's already living in an online, insecure device? First of all, the amounts are (should be) pretty small that you hold in a software wallet. Secondly, they can apply encryption to their seed and store it on paper / steel or simply buy a strong personal safe and put the backup inside there. (2) If they can't be bothered spending money on a hardware wallet, why would they spend money on their backup? Hardware wallet user (1) The better hardware wallets already create encrypted, electronic backups for you on SD cards, such as Passport, BitBox and ColdCard. (2) Why would they move their seed off their already 'offline, strong device' (hardware wallet) into an application, to save it to another 'offline, strong device'? It is a huge security risk and totally unnecessary as they already have a secure mechanism to do all they need. In summary, people willing (or 'required' due to larger BTC holdings) to spend money on their Bitcoin storage, should (or already do) buy a hardware wallet with built-in encrypted electronic backup mechanism instead. People who don't want or can spend money on a hardware wallet, won't buy this product either. Sure, it's a bit cheaper, but they'll be better off saving up for one more month and getting a proper hardware wallet. Finally, I just don't like the idea of getting people accustomed to entering their seed phrases here and there. The seed phrase should only be entered into Electrum or similar trusted software (preferably on a live-booted Tails OS) when restoring a wallet. You can also do this on some hardware wallets. Normalizing phone and desktop apps that ask for your seed phrase for anything else, just increases the likeliness of people to enter it elsewhere. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 15, 2022, 07:19:17 PM Thank you for your contribution
Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 16, 2022, 08:57:30 PM I understand your point. I don't think very many, but there are definitely a lot of hardware wallet users who can securely display their seed words directly on the device's screen and copy it to paper by hand. I wouldn't want them exposing their securely created and stored seeds to an online operating system with internet access and persistency, as it defeats the purpose of them purchasing the hardware wallet.How many crypto users have an offline pc just to work with the seed? Furthermore, I do think there needs to be more education and anyone with multiple Bitcoin should get themselves an offline PC just for working with seeds. Besides the fact that this doesn't need to be a separate device from what you already own. In case you're not familiar: https://tails.boum.org/ This boots off USB and lives in RAM, with Electrum preinstalled and no network. Remember the guy from UK that lost his hard drive with thousand of Bitcoins and is try to find it on the public trash of the city? Exactly: he had the keys on his hard drive. I'm saying people should do their backups on multiple instances of laminated paper or steel washers instead of relying on electronics.Cheap backup mechanisms that allow you to have redundancy at any budget. Buying 10 'cryptoplatz' devices is not an option for most. We need to create options to the users keep their Bitcoin safe, keep seed recovery phrase in small piece of paper, without encryptation is not a good option. Why is paper not a good option? Encryption just makes it more difficult to recover funds. If my heirs find my cleartext paper and steel seeds, they can restore them. If they find an encrypted plastic card, they could mistake it for an old credit card and throw it out.Not to mention that you can also encrypt a paper seed before writing it down. And hardware wallets like BitBox and Passport already create electronic, encrypted backups on microSD card, as well. In case you don't have a physically secure location for paper backups.. Trust wallet app has more than 10 millions of download, this people already have exposed his seed on smartphone, a lot of then don’t save seed on paper, for laziness to write on a paper. If they already exposed it, I already said, there is little additional risk entering it into one more application. However, do you think that someone who doesn't even bother writing the seed on paper, will go and buy a dedicated seed backup device?In my opinion, the money is better spent just buying a hardware wallet instead, transferring funds over and backing up on steel for 5 bucks. n0nce's Steel Washer Backup jig [...]https://i.postimg.cc/QMNkXyjh/n0nce-stamps-0.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/bJyt0DZP/n0nce-stamps-1.jpg Very nicely readable 6mm letters (tape holds washer in place) | Prototypes & final version. Improved letter spacing & tolerances. https://i.postimg.cc/8JGddw9V/n0nce-stamp.gif (https://i.postimg.cc/76GBkWNb/n0nce-stamp.gif) This is pretty much how it works Backup pure material cost: 4€ Requirements: stamps ~20€, jig ~10€ Go big or go home! 30x10.5mm washers! 6mm tall letters Edit: Any size of washer and stamp is now possible using the openSCAD file I provide for free below. Enjoy! Some people will prefer an offline computer, others will prefer ledger and trezor (both already hacked), others will prefer app wallets like BitPay, Trust Wallet, Exodus. So CryptoPlatz Vault is not for all users, it is for someone that want to looking for a easy way to store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device to keep it safe. It's true that there are different products for different people, I still just don't see the target user for cryptoplatz.Your title says: 'help us! :o' and that's what I'm trying to do. So you're saying the target user is someone 'looking for a easy way to store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device to keep it safe'. Let's assume 2 users, for sake of simplicity, this should cover 99% of Bitcoin users. Software wallet user (1) Why does this user need to 'store their seed recovery phrase encrypted and offline in a strong device' if it's already living in an online, insecure device? First of all, the amounts are (should be) pretty small that you hold in a software wallet. Secondly, they can apply encryption to their seed and store it on paper / steel or simply buy a strong personal safe and put the backup inside there. (2) If they can't be bothered spending money on a hardware wallet, why would they spend money on their backup? Hardware wallet user (1) The better hardware wallets already create encrypted, electronic backups for you on SD cards, such as Passport, BitBox and ColdCard. (2) Why would they move their seed off their already 'offline, strong device' (hardware wallet) into an application, to save it to another 'offline, strong device'? It is a huge security risk and totally unnecessary as they already have a secure mechanism to do all they need. In summary, people willing (or 'required' due to larger BTC holdings) to spend money on their Bitcoin storage, should (or already do) buy a hardware wallet with built-in encrypted electronic backup mechanism instead. People who don't want or can spend money on a hardware wallet, won't buy this product either. Sure, it's a bit cheaper, but they'll be better off saving up for one more month and getting a proper hardware wallet. Finally, I just don't like the idea of getting people accustomed to entering their seed phrases here and there. The seed phrase should only be entered into Electrum or similar trusted software (preferably on a live-booted Tails OS) when restoring a wallet. You can also do this on some hardware wallets. Normalizing phone and desktop apps that ask for your seed phrase for anything else, just increases the likeliness of people to enter it elsewhere. I understand your point and I will try to explain: You say people don't need to buy CryptoPlatz Vault because already exist hard wallet. Let me be very clear, CryptoPlatz Vault it is not to substitute cold wallets or hot wallet, this is the first point ok? CryptoPlatz Vault it is to substitute: 1) The paper where people write the seed phrase (recovery phrase) - paper is fragile (water, fire, bugs...) 2) Metal plates is not encrypted, so if somebody put the hands on your metal plate, you lost your crypto. CryptoPlatz Vault allow you to save your seed recovery phrase encrypted with AES-256 (password changed to a hash with MD5 first) Another point is, you say people must use Electrum with live OS. For advanced user ok, but Bitcoin now is used for a lot of people. You must incentive than to keep the Bitcoin with their, not with exchanges. But to do this, they need to have easy and safe ways to use cryptocurrency. I know a lot of people that have cryptocurrency, and do not know how to use Ledger, they think is very complicated :o I know people, that have more than 20 seed recovery phrase, imagine how to handle this with metal plates or paper? A lot of Bitcoins is lost for years, because people formatted the HD with seed or the paper with the seed get fired for example. For now we already have an iOS and Android version running. Soon we will launch version for MAC, Windows and Linux. So you can use CryptoPlatz software on Linux, offline, to store the seed encrypted. Again, maybe you have only one seed recovery phrase and I understand you are advanced user, but this is not the common. If people don't have a easy way to keep the seed recovery phrase protected. They will leave on a text file on Windows. A lot of people now is using MetaMask, they need to save the seed recovery phrase offline, encrypted. They need CryptoPlatz Vault. I hope you understand my point of view. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: n0nce on October 16, 2022, 10:42:06 PM We're running in circles, but since you mentioned it again:
A lot of people now is using MetaMask, they need to save the seed recovery phrase offline, encrypted. They need CryptoPlatz Vault. They use MetaMask, so they need to save their seed phrase offline, encrypted? Why do they need that? Someone breaking into their house can also just steal the PC, where the seed is stored, unencrypted, in MetaMask, no?You mentioned that a text file is not secure. Sure; a virus can access this file. A virus can also access MetaMask's wallet file; right? Where is the benefit of storing an online seed on an encrypted offline device? Again, in my opinion, encrypted, offline backups only make sense if your main wallet is offline, too. But since offline wallets can't usually connect to the cryptoplatz vault, there's no way of transferring the seed except through an online device, which destroys the whole purpose of it all. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 17, 2022, 10:16:11 AM We're running in circles, but since you mentioned it again: A lot of people now is using MetaMask, they need to save the seed recovery phrase offline, encrypted. They need CryptoPlatz Vault. They use MetaMask, so they need to save their seed phrase offline, encrypted? Why do they need that? Someone breaking into their house can also just steal the PC, where the seed is stored, unencrypted, in MetaMask, no?You mentioned that a text file is not secure. Sure; a virus can access this file. A virus can also access MetaMask's wallet file; right? Where is the benefit of storing an online seed on an encrypted offline device? Again, in my opinion, encrypted, offline backups only make sense if your main wallet is offline, too. But since offline wallets can't usually connect to the cryptoplatz vault, there's no way of transferring the seed except through an online device, which destroys the whole purpose of it all. You are wrong, Metamask save all the information encrypted on the computer, so if somebody steal the PC, he need to break the encryption. But if the user leave the seed on a paper or on plate without be encrypted, the thief you have access to the cryptocurrencies. So if the user use CryptoPlatz Vault, to store the seed, thief will not have access to the seed recovery phrase. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: dkbit98 on October 17, 2022, 07:49:00 PM So I will launch a challenge! I will sell 10 CryptoPlatz Vault with the seed recovery phrase of 1 Bitcoin, encrypted with CryptoPlatz App. How would people know if their card came preloaded with seed words for 1 Bitcoin?The first man that decrypt the seed recovery phrase can take 1 Bitcoin for him. I don't know if you are claiming that your encryption is impossible to crack, but consider sending this ten cards to known hackers and security experts, not to some random crypto normies and metamask users. How many crypto users have an offline pc just to work with the seed? More than you think, and you can count in all signing devices like SeedSigner and air-gapped hardware wallets Passport, ColdCard, Keystone and others in that mix.It's not that hard to own old laptop with no direct internet connection, and it can have full disk encryption in addition to file encryption. A lot of people now is using MetaMask, they need to save the seed recovery phrase offline, encrypted. They need CryptoPlatz Vault. I wonder how did they survive for so long with one :DWith your product people need to use smartphone and they are all connected to internet all the time, plus the cell tower connection. I don't care really about shitty metamask wallet and how they are handling their supported centralized coins. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: n0nce on October 17, 2022, 11:07:24 PM You are wrong, Metamask save all the information encrypted on the computer, so if somebody steal the PC, he need to break the encryption. Alright, that rules out the thief scenario. But whenever the wallet is used, the user inputs some password that decrypts the seed and allows the software to access private keys for signing.This means that if they have a virus dormant waiting just for that event to happen, it can access the seed. In conclusion, they still don't need an offline backup if using a software wallet, at least not to gain any extra protection from hackers. But if the user leave the seed on a paper or on plate without be encrypted, the thief you have access to the cryptocurrencies. Or the user could have an actual vault to store valuables and seeds. Or they could have encrypted microSD backups laying around, of their hardware wallet, created offline - by their hardware wallet.So if the user use CryptoPlatz Vault, to store the seed, thief will not have access to the seed recovery phrase. Quote from: https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-firmware/blob/main/SECURITY/SECURITY.md#1111-seed-backup These backup files are encrypted with a backup password that is derived from a combination of the device hash and the current seed value stored on Passport. This ensures that your backup password remains the same across multiple backups rather than getting a unique password for each backup, which is extremely inconvenient. Title: Re: Indiegogo launch - help us! :o Post by: cryptoplatz on October 18, 2022, 01:31:58 PM With your product people need to use smartphone and they are all connected to internet all the time, plus the cell tower connection. I don't care really about shitty metamask wallet and how they are handling their supported centralized coins. With the desktop version that we are developing you can choose to use on iOS, Android, Linux, Mac or Windows. they still don't need an offline backup if using a software wallet, Offline backup is always necessary, because this exist seed recovery phrase. Because if the computer or smartphone crash, it is easy to recovery funds with the backup Or the user could have an actual vault to store valuables and seeds. Or they could have encrypted microSD backups laying around, of their hardware wallet, created offline - by their hardware wallet. Yes, microSD can be used to store encrypted seed recovery phrase. But, few users know how to do that and is not resistant to water, fire... So maybe, CryptoPlatz Vault is just no for you guys, but for users that have cryptocurrencies on Trust Wallet, Metamask, Ledger, Trezor, Exodus and want a easy, safe, encrypted and offline device to store the seed recovery phrase. Thank you for your advise! Help us a lot! |