Bitcoin Forum

Not counting the lightning network obviously, because anyone I guess could create a lightning network for any coin.

I already know the answer but please humor me because I'm talking to some other guys who are convinced the opposite of what I'm saying is true.

Ty.

Definitely Ethereum still but not for ERC20 tokens.

Eth gas fees were ($0.9187) and BTC gas fees were ($1.450) today. If you're comparing popularity as a payment method though, this just means BTC is still more widely used, hence more transaction fees. Payment processors like https://www.poof.io/ (https://www.poof.io/) and https://cash.app/ (https://cash.app/), Square, Coinbase... etc probably all have extremely high payment volume with Bitcoin.

Thanks.

Can anyone else agree or disagree?

Also I been sending Eth to myself a few times, it is costing 30-60 cents as this tracker states:

https://etherscan.io/gastracker

I think maybe the tracker your using includes NFTs or something, this tracker has always been more accurate and shows NFTs and other fees seperate.

According to https://mempool.space Bitcoin mempool is practically empty right now. This means that all transactions, even with the lowest transaction fee of 1 sat/vB, will be confirmed in the next block.

In other words, the most basic segwit transaction with a single input and a single output will cost you about $0.03 at the current bitcoin rate.

https://i.imgur.com/uGUjZSE.png

This is false.

Bitcoin is cheaper.

As Stalker22 said  , a transaction can now be confirmed within 10 minutes, one block, for $ 0.03

Ethereum is now less decentralized as before  to become cheaper..  but it is still about 30x more expansive than btc, which more decentralized.

Then why are all the sites showing Bitcoin costs $1-$3 to send. Cashapp for example hovers around $2 to get a 10 minute transaction, or $1 for a 2 hour transaction. Coinbase is a bit cheaper usually hovering around $1

Since when can you send BTC for 3 cents?

That's because they charge you extra fee.
When you withdraw bitcoin from a custodial service like coinbase, you pay the fee to the service instead of paying miners directly. Custodial services usually charge you more than the fee they pay to miners.
If you use a non-custodial wallet which allows you to set the fee rate yourself, you can make bitcoin transactions with much lower fees.

Most of the time, ETH, but if the other party needs to receive it as BTC, of course it's way better to send it as is. There are times of the day wherein BTC fees are cheaper and you can get away with less than a few cents worth of fees, but it's not really consistent within the day so switching to ETH might be more economical before hitting send on your PC. You can use other alts for the same purpose too, but of course value will be an issue especially if the other party needs to get it as BTC or ETH and would not want an exchange to add to the equation.

Usually BTC is cheaper. But with either one the mempool can fill and if you want to be in the next block or the next few blocks it's going to cost you more.
I made several BTC transactions today for under $0.05

https://mempool.space/tx/6c4028d851894238144e68fcca999ec1cbb3b2f1318f17655d4c874477287329

Yesterday for a similar sized transaction that I wanted in the next block it cost me close to $0.30 If I could have waited I could have done it for $0.05 but I wanted to be sure the person I was sending it to saw that it was confirmed before I left the office.

-Dave

Wow, so the community so far is showing a split in opinions to which is cheaper without a very clear answer.

If you have to know I said Ethereum on average is cheaper, which some are agreeing, and others even here are disagreeing.

Did something change? Even when I use to use a actual bitcoin client I remember the fees always being higher than Ether.

Also the way Cashapp has it setup, makes it look like your paying the fees not to them but to the network.

I can see 3-10 cent transactions on Bitcoin, but on blockchain explorer I'm often seeing them over $1+

I might have gotten a bit dated on this information, but now I'm having a hard time finding a very clear cut answer.

Some BTC clients / services use high fees when they are not needed.
Picking on Coinomi (which sucks but it's a good indicator) for a 'normal' speed transaction $0.45
Core for the same transaction is about the same.
Electrum is showing close to $0.60
As of now a 4sat/byte fee will get you into the next block. So they are all higher then needed.

Exchanges tend to have higher fees so they (1) can make a profit and (2) put in a stupid high fee so you WILL be in the next block.

Taking a look at block 761894 you had people paying a fee of over 300 sat /vbyte when a fee of 1 would have made it into the block.
https://mempool.space/block/0000000000000000000024ddfbc4301595359c0477810c70b6a6ea9ed217aebb

Either really bad programming or people who just don't understand or....

ETH is the same way.
Some people paid 11.77 Gwei in the last block others paid a lot more.....

-Dave

I used to transact these days with bitcoin by just putting a 1-3sat of fee as it quicker to transfer these days.
While for Ethereum, obviously the fees are volatile and most of the times, they are not really cheap at all.
Buy it all dependa to the wallet that you use, there are the wallets that usually put it into priority fee as suggested by them.

I guess it is based on what wallet you are using,

Electrum for one, you can used the slider and adjust how much you are willing to pay for a transaction.

I usually set it at just around $0.12, yes, it is very cheap and the transaction usually completes in about and hour or even less than that.

This is not a matter of opinions. The community is not split.

There a few people here who are spreading misinformation , that's all. You are included in these people.

The data is open. Just look at etherscan.io and mempool.space and check is 1 usd is bigger than 0.03 usd


If you want to make a 0.03-0.10 usd transaction, just make a transaction from your wallet with 1 sat/vbyte fee.


You cannot blame the network for using an expensive third party service. You are paying coinbase fees,  not bitcoin fees.

You guess wrong, it's not as simple as taking LN code, switching a few lines and having a functioning LN on an altcoin. Coins that are closer to Bitcoin in their architecture will have an easier time of pulling that off (but still not easy), but most of the coins that that were released in the last 6 years have very different codebase and architecture, so it would take a ton of effort to implement LN for them.


The answer is that they both have high fees when they hit the limits of their on-chain capacity. So the answer depends on the current state of their mempools.  In recent times Ethereum tends to be more expensive.

Bitcoin has cheaper transaction fee than Ethereum.

However when you are discussing about transaction fee, you should know that you have no control about that if you are using a centralized service for your coin. When you make a withdrawal request, they will approve it (or disapprove it) and proceed it by broadcasting it to Bitcoin or Ethereum network. Centralized services charge very expensive withdrawal fee on users.

Fortunately, if you are using a non custodial wallet, you can control your coin inputs (for each transaction) and fee rate you want to broadcast that transaction.

Generally you can check average transaction fees on Bitcoin or Ethereum network with Blockchair.com's tool: https://blockchair.com/compare
Choosing Bitcoin, Ethereum and unchoosing other blockchains. You can get comparisons between Bitcoin and Ethereum network including their average transaction fees.

* Average Fees are used below, because while some may lowball the transaction fee,
the majority are not willing to wait 3-48 hours for a lowball transaction to complete.
Some lowball offers are rejected wasting the 48 hours.
Also due to the variance in a Coin's Price verses the US $, waiting too long is not a real option when paying for something.*

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html#3y
Current Average price is $1.33 per BTC transaction

* For a single LN transaction*
You pay $1.33 once to lock and once to unlock, so $2.66 plus what the LN network charges which varies by hops.
LN actually cost more than a single bitcoin onchain transaction unless you are transacting more than 5 times with the same person.
FYI: LN is for banks not individuals.


https://ycharts.com/indicators/ethereum_average_transaction_fee
Current Average price is $0.66 per Ethereum transaction
* So at the moment Ethereum is cheaper to send by more than ½ btc transaction fee.*

Prices of either are subject to change with increased transactions.
BTC will always go higher in transaction fees faster than ethereum due to the limited blocksize and the defective proof of waste design.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/ethereum_transactions_per_day
Ethereum is making ~1 million transactions per day.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_transactions_per_day
Bitcoin pathetic Proof of Waste design is only ¼ the transaction volume of ethereum at <300000 per day.

Cheapest and Fastest way is using an Exchange
Using an Exchange to transact Offchain between Exchange Users
can be done with zero transaction fees for either BTC or Ethereum.
And by using the exchange you avoid locking fees of LN.

LOL :D

Exchange has a minimum amount to withdraw your coins and they're usually charge for fixed fees, no matter how much the real miner fees charged. This mean even though you can send Bitcoin with 1 sat/byte that will cost you only few cents, but the exchange can ask 50,000 satoshi to able withdraw your coins, 50,000 satoshi is 0.0005 BTC or $10 currently.

The best way to avoid large fees is avoid to use centralized exchange and closed source wallet e.g. Trustwallet, Atomic etc. Only use non custodial wallet, open source and use segwit address e.g. Electrum or Bluewallet.

I don't think anyone sensible should scold you for a gentleman's question, after all, we are a community of education/information here and you might truly be a newbie in the world of cryptocurrency. Bitcoin transaction fees are way lower than that of Ethereum, to the extent that they might be more than 10 times lower in normal circumstances.

This is why I only like Ethereum for investment but can never use it for transactions where I have Bitcoin as an option.

now that most erc20 tokens dead are in hibernation, it became potentially comparable. hence this kind of discussion and comparison.


I regularly send it with a fee under $1 from my Trezor wallet. it could be less if I do not want an instant transaction.

You are cherry-picking charts and stats that fit into your flawed narrative. 


https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/ethereum-transactionfees.html#3y
Current Average price is $2.68 per Ethereum transaction


There, I fixed it for you.


LOL! Using centralized services for transactions kind of defeats the whole concept of decentralized cryptocurrencies. :D

It depends on the amount you're sending and the exchange rate at the moment. Usually, it's cheaper to send directly from an exchange, but you'll need an account and verify yourself (KYC), which is not necessary when using this method.

There used to be a time when Ethereum was cheaper, during the times when Bitcoin network was just overwhelmed by the amount of transactions and fees spiked to crazy numbers. I am not fully convinced that we won't see it happen again, but transaction fees have been very reasonable with Bitcoin for a while, and Ethereum had its own times of high fees as well. I completely agree with others that Bitcoin transaction fees and fees set up by exchanges should be considered separately. The withdrawal fees from platforms have nothing to do with transaction fees, and they don't mean that Bitcoin is more expensive to send than Ethereum. Overall, the fees are close enough and reasonable enough not to consider is a competition, IMO.

Actually the person was talking about transfer which is completely done for free on some exchanges but we can't consider them as a transaction since we can only move between the exchange wallets not to our own, and withdrawal fee on exchange average over $10 so its definitely not a good choice.

It seems everyone is talking about the fees but we forgot to mention the transaction fee depends on the weight of the transaction not the amount we are transacting so OP consolidate your smaller inputs when mempool is empty and you can transact them for cheaper whenever you want to transfer to someone.

According to current Gwei, Ethereum gas fee is very less you can transfer Ethereum costing only 40-45 cents and its transaction speed will be much faster than Bitcoin because if you want to transfer Bitcoin through Bitcoin network then it takes at least 10 to 15 minutes for its blok to be confirmed. and it will cut 1.5-$2 as transactions fees . so if you consider less transaction fees and less time to complete the transaction then Ethereum is still ahead of Bitcoin.

Way to be wrong in everything you said.  ;)

I choose Ycharts because their ethereum calculations were correct.
Nov 5th, total ethereum fees =>357.7 ether
Nov 5th , total transactions   =>952067 transactions
Total Fees / Total Transactions = Average Daily Transactions fees
which came out to .000375 ethereum, round up to .0004 ethereum
.0004 ethereum converts to USD $0.65

bitinfocharts.com ethereum average fee calculations were incorrect which is why I did not use them.

Title of the post was cheaper ways to send.
Exchanges (offchain transfers) are the cheapest way to send any crypto, ignoring that would be just stupid.  :-*

Funny how btc cult members say decentralized like it is a perfectly good reason to be stupid and waste money.
Oh well, bitcoin is running on Proof of Waste.
Even funnier, how anyone can think a coin that has a mere 4 people controlling it's transactions is decentralized.  :D

But you decided to use bitinfocharts.com for Bitcoin transactions even though you admit that their calculation is incorrect? As I said, you are cherry-picking.


Ignoring the fact that you are not actually sending anything using an exchange's internal function would be just stupid.


You mean BitcoinTalk.org members? Well, welcome to the club!  :D
If you are new to bitcoin, try making a transaction every now and then and see what happens.


I'm afraid your information is inaccurate. As of right now, there are 15383 Bitcoin nodes online on the network.
https://bitnodes.io/#reachable-bitcoin-nodes

You could make out some comparison in these charts.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_fee
https://ycharts.com/indicators/ethereum_average_transaction_fee

Doesnt need for you to get scared nor believe on what others been saying considering you could really make some research on your own
or would totally experience for yourself.

Bitcoin fees nowadays is too cheap and almost cost nothing.Unless if there is high network clogged or traffic then you would
be expecting something high.

I think sending Ethereum from non-custodial wallet to another is way cheaper than Bitcoin, but it is not same with erc20 tokens, Also, withdrawing from centralized exchanges cost much more than the normal network fee, because exchange will charge withdrawal fee as well as network fee put together, one way to check this is to search the tx id the exchange provided on the explorer, you will discover that the blockchain network fee is way lesser than the amount the exchange charged.
This is same for both Bitcoin and Ethereum, and several other coins as well. 

People probably need to take into account there's fluctuations on the fee price when replying to each other here. Might have been 90c one day and 50c the next.

ETH gas fees are dependent on computational complexity, so it's a little harder to calculate "what is average" since it depends on the contract details. But yes, for normal sends, ETH is probably cheaper. On any ERC20/ERC721, transaction broadcast, an Ethereum-based transaction is higher than that of Bitcoin. You can have extremely low BTC gas fees when broadcasting a TSX but on average, people wouldn't send at the lowest possible sat/bytes, which is why the average is much higher.

Those ethereum fees appear to include the cost to send NFTs, tokens, etc.

If you look at the cost of just sending ether, its 30-60 cents on average.

https://etherscan.io/gastracker

As of this writing,
High priority on Ethereum - $0.63 from etherscan
High Priority on Bitcoin - $0.15 from mempool.space

I expected Gas fees to go below $0.10 when they switched to POS but it seems Bitcoin's POW is still better in sending single transactions. It's still probably cheaper when you send in batch on both networks.

How do you do it?
I mean you are wrong in everything you say,  :D :D :D
Even a broke clock would be right twice per day, but not you.  ;)

4 mining pools control over 51% of the hashrate,
meaning the 4 mining pool operators only have to collude to 51% attack btc for the last few years.
So no matter the # of nodes, no matter the energy wasted,
all of btc security is dependent on those 4 people not colluding to crash btc.

I'll also say (again) that a large amount of the fees are paid on the BTC network are not needed since you can send for less but for some reason some people are paying a lot more then needed.
For the last 8 blocks a 1 sat/vB fee would get you in.
None of them were filled.
On the block that is being worked on now there are pending tx with a fee of 201 sat/vB

That is just throwing BTC away.

-Dave

The reason btc average transaction fees are currently over $1:
Odds are due to the times in the past where the bitcoin blockchain was congested and super slow transactions.
Exchange set a minimum inhouse transaction fee to avoid the headache of when btc failed to keep up with transactions.
Also you have some users that got use to setting higher fees to avoid the dreaded hours to days long wait that many btc senders experienced.
And while at this moment, their is plenty of block space in BTC (due to lack of adoption), the habits from the bloated btc remains.

Since BTC can bloat in a very short time, I don't blame those that are sticking to their old learned habits.
They rather play it safe than sorry, by attempting lowball fee transactions.

BTC is Proof of Waste after all.  :)

IF BTC can get back to 400000 daily onchain transactions, then transaction fees over $50 will be right back.

 

It is Ethereum that is more expensive. It has always been Ethereum that is more expensive. But since both of their fees rise and fall, there are probably times when it is cheaper to send Ethereum than Bitcoin especially if you want the transaction to be confirmed right away. But if you are willing to wait, I think Bitcoin is much cheaper.


Why did you expect that when the switch from PoW to PoS doesn't have anything to do with gas fees? The switch was not to address gas fees.

That's one of the myths of the Merge. Some are criticizing the upgrade because the gas fees didn't go down. Why should it go down when it wasn't even addressed with the Merge?

Are you trying to say that ethereum has more adoption than bitcoin?

Nearly all ethereum transactions are related to defi pyramid schemes, basically exchange useless erc20 with each other during a bull run. Defi is nearly dead now when there is no more speculation .

On the top of that, we can see news like this  , we're 73% of all blocks and censoring transactions

Bitcoin on the other hand is seeing real world adoption.  It is growing world wide, stores , online shops, atm, etc.

Bitcoin on chain transactions are cheap and fast and uncensored.

As fast and cheap as it was designed for. And we still have the lighting network with sub Satoshi fees.

Bitcoin is growing wild, free and decentralized.  Ethereum is growing slow, censored and expensive.

Yep.  :)

---

Actually little know fact, and probably the reason the PoS conversion had to happen 1st .
Proof of Stake coin network can survive off of nothing but staked rewards, and all or some of transaction fees can be burned.

So in one of the next updates, ethereum transaction fees can be lowered to a fixed price or removed altogether.

PoW economic design is to replace rewards with transaction fees, which may not even be a sustainable economic design,
as selfish mining and collusion potential increases in a PoW design as reward decreases.
https://www.cs.cornell.edu/~ie53/publications/btcProcFC.pdf

Let's we compare with the marketcap, currently Bitcoin's marketcap is $402,065,962,154 while Ethereum's marketcap is $193,000,263,613 this mean Bitcoin marketcap is higher 2x times than Ethereum. Bitcoin won by marketcap.

By google search, currently Bitcoin has been searched for approximately 574,000,000 results (0.41 seconds) while Ethereum has been searched for approximately 159,000,000 results (0.41 seconds). Bitcoin won by google search.

By become legal tender, currently El Salvador and Central African Republic accept Bitcoin as a legal tender while there's no one country accept Ethereum as a legal tender. Bitcoin won by country adoption.

Exactly Ethereum is more expensive but depending on when we make the transaction, at peak many transactions leading to network congestion will push gas fees up and vice versa.



POW to POS conversion does not refer to reducing gas fees, simply helping ETH deflate and reduce energy consumption. while the gas fee reduction will be improved in other upgrades in the future, I remember the sharding upgrade will help ETH solve the gas fee issue. Many people confused and criticized the update but that's because they didn't learn about the eth upgrade.

That's what I also read. Actually there is is this misconception that the Merge was everything there is for Ethereum's upgrade or that it was the most important or the biggest part. The truth is that the Merge is just one among many major upgrades. This misconception is probably the main reason why many are criticizing Ethereum for having done with the Merge upgrade yet remains to have high gas fees. Upgrades relating to scalability and overall capacity have yet to be implemented. Sharding will probably take place next year or the year that follows.

One of the "propaganda" or marketing stunt that I've read from some blogs before the transition was the improved scalability and that lower gas fees usually comes with it. I don't recall them saying it will take another major upgrade to address that issue so that's where the confusion usually comes from.

Why does Ethereum have Greater Adoption.

Simple : Ethereum has around 4X the Onchain Transaction Volume as Bitcoin transactions Daily.
Where it actually matters, Ethereum has 4X the adoption in Transactions Usage.  

It is worth knowing that Vitalik was once saying that "Ethereum fees will never surpass 5 cents". Now they have forced a hard fork on this shitcoin that mostly benefit them (since they hold 72 million premined ethers) and fooled people into thinking this helps the network.

haha somebody is bagholding this shitcoin ;D

This is not adoption. This is basically fake volume.

People sending pyramids schemes token back and forward trying to make some money or just inflate the network.
Or whatever. This is not adoption.

Go on the street and ask random people at supermarket, office etc what is bitcoin and what is ethereum. This is adoption.

Take a picture of an ethereum atm  :D

Observed so many fools in this thread who actually believe that ETH is actually better than BTC in terms of adoption, fees etc when the reverse is true. BTC will always remain king in my opinion.

ETH TX fees and times have definitely decreased in recent times, but they are still way higher when compared to BTC TX times and fees.

For example, I sent a BTC TX recently from a site to one of my wallets which was processed within 10-15 minutes and the fees were pretty much negligible.

Looks like you're not a fan of ethereum so you didn't get all that info, basically this POS upgrade is considered the biggest ever but it is just a stepping stone for ETH to adopt larger upgrades in the future. Honestly, I don't know when the ETH roadmap is actually 100% complete, probably never will. Recently Vitalik also announced other ETH upgrades in the future. ETH's biggest problem right now is not gas fees but its concentration, hopefully Vitalik will have a solution for this.
https://i.imgur.com/deOoFOx.jpg

This really is cheap compared to Eth. I think there is something worth waiting in the future from these Coins when it comes to fees. Updates will surely fix fee issues soon if it is really not enough for some Bitcoin and Ethereum users as devs will always find ways to make transaction smooth and convienient. I don't usually trade and transact that is why I am not affected with this.

There is "some" scalability in the sense that we could maybe have more or less in ETH transaction depending on the period we are comparing. Right not, it might be seeming like a little bit better but in the long run it is not really that much better, it's close enough.

It was always about the fact that we would have something that will pass the all "late" transactions, and then start anew, and then we would be able to pay a little less, like a bulk order, and afterwards it would all go back to normal like how it was a year ago. Bitcoin is better thanks to segwit right now and I believe in near future devs will come out with an improved version of segwit which may solve scalability issue permanently.

Sending bitcoin at 1 sat/vb is very inexpensive something like 3 or 4 cents. If the person was trying to send from a centralized exchange they would have no ability to set the fee and they would need to pay the withdraw fee which is fixed by the exchange. In my experience sending Eth has always cost more

That's definitely one of the reasons why this misunderstanding spread out very quickly. It really was made to look like the recent Merge is the silver bullet for all of Ethereum's problems. Of course it wasn't but then all the excitement, the hype, and the anticipation surrounding the Merge blurred the real deal of the upgrade to the point that myths were more popular than the truth. Then the upgrade happened and people are somewhat disappointed that what they were expecting didn't take place. It was all because they're expecting the wrong thing.

There's many news has been talk about ETH merge many times until now, but there's no progress at all and still Ethereum can't fix their expensive fees. I think Vitalik Butterin already enjoy to hold most of Ethereum and many people still using this token, so he doesn't care with the merge development. It just add more work for him, so he will just wait until there's really need for improvement e.g. when less people using ETH, this merge will want to attract them back.

I can't tell if it added any scalability whatsoever but generally speaking centralization always brings higher scaling with itself. For example PayPal which is a centralized payment network is a lot more scalable than any of the cryptocurrencies. So when ETH moves more in the direction of centralization it could be understandable for it to also gain a little bit of scaling, although I don't see that yet.

What you say is what's happening, people are mostly just focusing on price too much and just waiting for the upgrade to be able to sell at a high price, people barely care what the upgrade will solve and how it will impact the ETH ecosystem. If we try to capture everything, we will not be disappointed.

It can be said that today, new investors entering the market only care about profits and will leave the project when it is profitable. This also worries developers and they also have the same thought, it is better to dump before investors dump, leading to a series of just-for-profit projects and rug pull afterwards.

What makes you think that Vitalik does nothing? it's like he's killing his own child, once users have left your project meaning they have lost trust in the project there is no reason for them to come back. As many have said the merger is just to help ETH use less energy and deflate. The gas fee reduction will be resolved in the next year's upgrades, but many traders also said that the gas fee has also been reduced somewhat and is no longer as expensive as before.