Bitcoin Forum

See this:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/binance-recommends-p2p-as-ukraine-suspends-hryvnia-use-on-crypto-exchanges


The definition for P2P service is correct, but is Binance not a middle-person as used in the their definition?

If the definition is correct, that means all centralized exchanges are not P2P exchanges because if no middle man is involved, P2P should be decentralized or directly between two people.

I agree with your point. P2P by definition usually refers to a decentralized platform. In Binance's "P2P" service, Binance is acting as a middleman because the cryptocurrency is transferred within their platform - from the seller's Binance wallet to the buyer's Binance wallet. Binance's team also acts as the intermediary in case of a dispute.

A true P2P platform would be something like the Bisq network.

As with every statement from Binance or CZ, this is pure marketing aimed at increasing their own profits and nothing else. It is also a lie, but Binance are well known to outright lie and scam their users in order to make more profits, so no real surprises there.

Binance P2P is not peer to peer. It is peer to Binance and Binance to peer. Binance is a (un)trusted middle man, who has complete control over your trade, can spy on everything you do, takes custody of your coins, and can censor your transactions. You have zero security, zero privacy, and zero sovereignty. Literally the only thing that is different to regular Binance is the way in which your buy or sell order is matched up. If some regulator decides that they want Binance to shut down their P2P platform, they will do it in a heartbeat, and good luck getting back any coins you have on the platform at the time.

If you actually want to trade peer to peer and stop middlemen from arbitrarily preventing your trades or seizing your coins, then use an actually peer to peer exchange like Bisq or AgoraDesk. Binance P2P is a scam.

In the first place, you need to create an account with Binance. You also need to submit and pass KYC. After that, you need to send your money to Binance. With this, how is Binance's peer-to-peer transaction a real peer-to-peer transaction?

Secondly, a peer-to-peer transaction doesn't simply mean there isn't a middleman; it more importantly means there is no third party that is powerful enough to censor and approve transactions. It means anybody could transact with anybody. With Binance, however, not only do transactions pass through a middleman, the middleman also screens P2P users themselves. Censorship is rather worse, therefore; it's on a different level. They not only get to decide whether a transaction should proceed or not, they also get to decide whether a current Binance user itself could transact peer-to-peer or not.

To understand how P2P can work in the proper manner;
• The one selling bitcoins has their personal, non custodian wallets linked up to their account (which was opened without the need for KYC).
• They are matched up to a seller or chose a pair from the available sell orders,
• Buyer and seller discuss payment option to go with and decide on the most convenient,
• Seller creates a smart contact transaction which releases the funds to the buyer's wallet once seller receives the fiat payment.

Some exchanges could tweak some actions, but that's the general idea. What binance does is just another form of regular centralized transaction with Binance mediating between buyer and seller and holding the funds at every point during the trade.

It's all a marketing prop, just like coinbase custodian wallet imitation.

Anything that has to do with Binance is completely centralized, it doesn't matter if they developed it themselves or acquired it, the moment it's under the control of Cz it becomes centralized. That man Cz is one of the problems of this industry, people think he's some savior (second Satoshi) and wants the best interest of the industry but that's a complete lie. I won't be surprised if it turns out CZ was a Chinese undercover agent sent by the Chinese government to conquer the cryptocurrency industry and what better way to do that then through an exchange that can detect what people sees and invest in.

Trust wallet was open source before it got acquired by Binance even their P2P isn't decentralized. P2P has to do with decentralization and Binance is centralized therefore Binance can't be offering a P2P exchange. There's nothing wrong with using Binance to only trade but do note, whenever you're doing that you're selling your private information to them (this happens with all centralized platforms like Facebook etc) as they monitor some other activities that's beyond just trading on their exchange which can be sold to third parties (advertisement parties) which target ads at you when you use other platforms.

Binance exchange is a complete centralized crypto trading exchange.
They offer peer 2peer service,  and that doesn't make them decentralized in any way, to me,  it's still centralized.

But if I have to use any p2p exchange  I will still choose Binance because they play the middleman role very well, I have used a few p2p exchange years ago and I lost money because no middleman to clarify if truly a transaction happens or someone is trying to cheat the other,

If you have used Paxful in the past you will understand what I am talking about, I don't think I can get used to a P2P exchange without the Middleman, no I won't do it, this middleman of a thing is why justice is been served on Binance exchange.  You can't cheat someone and get away with it unless you break the rules.

On Paxful, I provided some proof of the transaction and they still release funds to the scammer, this was just one out of many stories I had with p2p platforms out there,  there are more.

Any platform where the wallet assigned to you is custodial is not P2P. It's a big fuckin lie! And this included Binance, Kucoin and all those other platforms claim to have "p2p" trading in them

it's not a p2p service  :-X


I don't think you have understood any message in this post. Please, read through the thread, again. paxful is not a p2p exchange!

AFAIK, The term "middleman" refers to any intermediary that sits between two parties in a transaction.  In a P2P network, there is typically no middleman involved, as the nodes communicate directly with one another and this can provide a number of benefits, such as increased privacy and security, as well as reduced costs and greater scalability.

In my own understanding, the centralized exchange that offers p2p and the decentralized p2p exchange is totally different.
In a centralized P2P network, there is typically a central server or authority that controls the network and facilitates communication between nodes. Nodes in the network communicate with each other through this central server or authority, which acts as a middleman.
While on the decentralized p2p, there's no central authority or server that controls the network but instead, nodes in the network communicate directly with each other, without the need for a middleman.  Each node in the network is equal and has the same level of control and authority as all other nodes.

I think not all p2p exchanges are created equal, there are always pros and cons to each of them, and about CZ, there's a hidden agenda for all of these and one of our suspects could be the marketing which possibly gains benefits from his exchange which is very obvious.

However Binance has defined it, they still operate the p2p exchange like any other.. for reference we could use the just closed localbitcoin, though I think Binance has added a few extra security features to protect both parties from any accidental release of funds or any unauthorized use of an account that doesn't belong to you. Without any bias this is a game changer which brings crypto closer to our communities...

You do not need to use exchange software to do p2p exchanges you can use this forum on the currency exchange and you can be sure that no one is saving your data or bank details. The person you trade with could be but that is why you only trade with trustworthy people. When you use p2p exchanges they could be collecting data on you and the person that you are trading with.

Yes, Binance is not a decentralized exchange, and you can't tell P2P exchange from Binance is a pure p2p exchange. P2P means it will deal with 2 persons, and  Is.

Binance is acting like a middleman or screw in the p2p exchange of Binance. I don't know if it is possible for the clients to make p transactions without a middleman, so we need to keep our faith on binance while making p2p trades.

You can make p2p exchanges without a middle man but you cannot on Binance. I think it is time people look for alternatives to Binance they have the monopoly and a lot of people could lose Bitcoin if they ever get hacked or go bankrupt. They are diversifying in everything and they are collecting the most data on people because most the Bitcoin community use them.

I think the key issue is the definition of P2P being unclear, especially after more and more "escrow" service start their own exchange service. You can argue that the way they work is very different from what we usually refer to as P2P on this forum, even if they use multi-sig as a means to protect user funds. KYC is one of the clear differences. Whether you agree that their business model is still P2P or not is the key debate here.

IMO It is better to never use personal data especially if you can avoid it. Trading with a 'trustworthy' person is still risky, not necessarily because they will scam you, but because they might sell your info behind your back. No one can prove this, so it is better to be paranoid. Still better than using a third party that clearly collects both of your data though. CMIIW.

In short, on the current what we have in peer-to-peer exchanges right now on several centralized somehow modified peer-to-peer exchanges because they are centralized and these centralized exchanges act as middlemen.
But these centralized exchange got pros and cons, some can be beneficial for both buyers and sellers. At the end of the day, still centralized, your cryptocurrencies are still in their hands.

The situation is twofold: on the one hand, the Binance exchange provides users with the opportunity to find each other on its platform, organizes a meeting and provides conditions. Therefore, we can say that it is involved in the transaction 2p2. But on the other hand, only two people exchange money. The exchange is not involved, so you can decide that it is not tied to the transaction economically.

is it possible that Binance has acted as Escrow in the P2P transactions on their platform. This action is indeed taken to ensure that each party has done what must be done in the transaction. But this seems to make P2P platform exchanges and the like not really P2P. because it still involves intermediaries or third parties.

whereas p2p trading should indeed be trade carried out by two individuals (seller and buyer) directly without involving intermediaries or third parties.
and it seems p2p on all exchange platforms do the same thing. (sourch (https://www.binance.com/id/blog/p2p/pengantar-perdagangan-peertopeer-apa-itu-perdagangan-p2p-dan-bagaimana-cara-kerja-bursa-bitcoin-lokal-421499824684901839))

but maybe i'm wrong. because I don't fully understand it yet. with what methods are used by these exchange platforms. are they just in charge of locking and releasing only. or did they accommodate first. but what is clear is that our assets will be temporarily locked in the funding wallet before the transaction is completed. and the lock will be released by binance and we will release our assets when the transaction is considered complete.

Edited: Or Binance may just provide the tables and serve as an umpire. it seems that Binance has indeed been the middle man in the p2p deal. and they provide Escrow too. as written on their site. (sourch (https://www.binance.com/id/blog/p2p/pengantar-perdagangan-peertopeer-apa-itu-perdagangan-p2p-dan-bagaimana-cara-kerja-bursa-bitcoin-lokal-421499824684901839))

Yes, P2P on these platforms are commercialized but without them, who's gonna secure the funds and the crypto?

It's gonna be the same as the Lending section. Between trusted parties, hardly a problem (still there's a chance of running away albeit highly unlikely) but what about newbies or lesser-known ones? That's why we need Binance and the likes to intervene into any sort of hanky-panky.

There was a time when a platform (Remitano) saved my ass because some scammer-wannabe tried to trick me into releasing the BTC.

Open source escrow platforms need to be developed so you can trust that they are not stealing your data. When they are available I think p2p exchanges will become less popular because if you are using a platform to do p2p trades you are still using a 3rd party platform which probably collects your data.

The terms P2P and middleman are mutually exclusive. You cannot trade peer to peer if there is a middleman. By definition, you are no longer trading peer to peer, but peer to middleman and vice versa.

Binance P2P is not peer to peer. It is a centralized exchangile lying to you to make profit.

Another centralized exchange which is not peer to peer. Centralized servers, centralized wallets, centralized KYC collection.

I don't think it is unclear at all. Peer to peer. Easy. If there is a middleman, then it isn't peer to peer. The issue here is people believe the lies of centralized exchanges, who only care about lining their own pockets at your expense.

The users. There is no need for someone else to secure the funds if the funds never leave the custody of the individuals involved in the trade.

So... Bisq?

Yes but we should have more platforms like bisq instead of only relying on Bisq. The problem with the Bitcoin community is they prefer to use Binance who have complete control over your Bitcoin stored on their website.

Binance is not decentralized, since they are in total control of every transactions made on the platform. They are deceiving people that they run P2P trading system to give their users assurance that it is not centralized, which makes it fishery. P2P trading is just between the buyer and the seller only,where they will be no middle man but Binance can deprive you access to your funds and come up with stories. This implies that they are in total control of your coins and not you,whereas in a decentralized system,nobody can control your funds but just you alone. I will never trust Binance for coming up with this claim. Bisq is a P2P platform

We are not relying only on Bisq as the only peer to peer crypto exchange, Bisq is quite popular and many bitcoiners choose it as their go-to for peer to peer trading, but there are many others that are good too, and they can be found in this link: https://kycnot.me/

Never heard of them are they trustworthy and open source?

Well, maybe. Of all the crypto in existence, we only actually need bitcoin (and probably Monero), with >99% of altcoins being centralized, scams, or some combination of both. Because bitcoin is open source, decentralized, and run entirely peer to peer, it is impossible for a government or other entity to shut it down. Bisq is the same. It is open source, completely decentralized, and run entirely peer to peer. Just like bitcoin, you download and run the software on your local machine. There is no centralized website or server which can be targeted and shutdown. If we can rely only on bitcoin for our decentralized currency, then no reason we cannot rely only on Bisq as our decentralized exchange.

Having said that, there are still plenty of alternatives, it's just that none of the alternatives are quite as good as Bisq.

If you click on any individual exchange it gives you a breakdown of their characteristics, including whether or not they are open source.

A value of 10 of 10 means it is the most popular and Full Privacy for now. No need for KYC, P2P is done quickly without creating any accounts and using Open Source desktop tools. Accepts Bitcoin, monero and cash payments, and is available with the Tor network. Very interesting and indeed quite popular at the moment.

The last time that I was checking for P2P exchanges, Bisq is what I could find, there are others too but which are not that decentralized or totally decentralized like Bisq. Just as o_e_l_e_o tells you, you can click on the individual exchange to know some information about them. There is one that I noticed about which is centralized, but the best that I know centralized exchange which requires no KYC as of now which is Kucoin, but they can ask you at anytime to give them your identity because they have the keys and that means they control over your money.

Everything that comes from Binance is lies and fluff marketing to drive revenue.

While I do like Bisq, I prefer to use Robosats because it doesn't require me to download anything except for the Tor browser and I can buy bitcoin with Amazon gift cards purchased with cash. I can swap in and out between on-chain and lightning which I plan on doing as soon as I have some doxxic change I need to get rid of.

You can even use Robosats to trade shitcoins if you're into that sort of thing.

It's the best P2P platform that I have used but it def needs more liquidity.

In my opinion Binance is not a true P2P exchange. Because P2P exchange should be decentralized and there will be no middleman and have no access to users funds. So P2P exchange means decentralized and fully secured exchange where people can buy sell directly to the others. Bisq exchange is a good example of P2P exchanges.

Taking Bisq as an example (I haven't used it), does it work in such a way that both seller and buyer sends their funds to a contract address or something and after verification, the contract releases them to both sides?

Yes Binance acts as a middleman for p2p. It can also be called a type of Escrow. Apart from Binance, several other centralized exchanges like Kucoin are now offering p2p facilities. When a buyer and seller agree to a transaction, Binance only keeps the seller's crypto frozen since they cannot deposit fiat money from different countries.  And when the buyer sends money to the seller, the seller releases those dollars and Binance transfers those dollars from account to buyer account instantly. And Binance has also put there Appeal option which will protect both buyers and sellers assets

Binance and KuCoin exchanges have P2P systems in place.For those who want to do P2P trading, only dollars can be bought and sold here.Here it is possible to do transactions in different countries' own currencies.But as far as I feel Binance is the most dependable exchange for P2P trading.
I am showing you some examples of how to trade on Binance P2P.

Here are some examples of P2P trading of KuCoin Exchange.

Essentially, yes.

Both buyer and seller deposit their security deposits and the bitcoin being traded to a 2-of-2 multi-sig escrow, where they each hold a single key. Once the fiat payment has been made by the buyer and confirmed by the seller, they both agree to release the bitcoin to the buyer, and to return both security deposits to the relevant parties. In the rare case of a dispute, there is a timelocked transaction signed by both parties on creation of the 2-of-2 escrow which sends all the coins to the Bisq DAO for arbitration, but it is very rare that this is implemented.

Understood, how about fiat transactions though if one decides to cash out or buy in? Online bank transfer, mobile wallet transfer, that's when it gets tricky since that's essentially a direct transfer between both the buyer and seller.

On a centralized exchange, the seller's crypto are escrowed. Buyer goes first by directly remitting the cash into the seller's bank account, so seller receives the money but wants to pull a fast one, buyer raises a dispute.

Mediator (support rep) comes in, checks both sides of the story and finds that seller is trying to scam. Releases crypto to buyer, suspends/ bans the seller.

On decentralized exchanges, I can't imagine that happening without some sort of third-party intervention.

It depends on the specifics of the platform you are using. All will have protocols in place for this kind of thing, which usually involves releasing the bitcoin to the buyer along with a penalty taken from the seller, unless the two individuals come to some other agreement (i.e. the seller refunds the buyer). For Bisq, you can see the examples here: https://bisq.wiki/Table_of_penalties.

So for the seller not releasing the BTC within the trade window, then the arbitrator would give the buyer the full amount of bitcoin they were owed from the escrow, along with 15% of the seller's security deposit as punishment.

For Bisq, that's where the arbitrator (https://bisq.wiki/Arbitrator) comes in.

But once a trade has a middleman, it is no longer called P2P, P2P=peer-to-peer, meaning there is no third party or middleman but only two people transacting with each other. To be fair, centralized exchanges are distorting the concept of P2P because they are the middleman of the trade, they have control or access to your assets at any time. To think simply, how can a company dedicated to providing centralized services create a decentralized product?

P2P on Binance is a very convenient feature, it is clear that Binance acts as an intermediary, they are like a guarantee that the transaction will be successful. You can also see the rating with the percentage of successful transactions, which is very convenient.

Not don't blame the community, you should be blaming companies like Binance that has made the community lose focus and don't understand what true decentralization is all about . Ask a typical newbie in the space what's an example of a P2P system and the first thing they'll tell you is Binance P2P before naming other centralized P2P platforms. This is why we owe it to the community to educate them whenever the chance present itself like what's been done on this thread. Binance is destroying the system, the community are getting too comfortable with centralized services that we forget that's exactly the opposite of what this industry is meant to represent.

Binance are forcing themselves on the community, they're buying everything, from coin tracking platform to wallets and having a large share in other projects coming up in the industry. Also take a good look at projects that supposedly do well this days, they have to first sell their souls to CZ through him having a large circulating supply of the projects tokens either from his firm directly investing in the project at earlier stages with very cheap buy-in price or the founders given Binance the token for them to be eligible for listing on their exchange. All binance is doing is trying to detect everything that happens in the industry. They're sabotaging the growth of true decentralization on purpose.

binance packages their P2P service as if it is a real P2P service, only Bisq is a true P2P service ^{(this is the reason i really support bisq network)}

That means that  in case if Binance website is down for whatever reason, there will be no more P2P and all funds could be lost forever.
If you are going to trust CZ with all your personal information and coins just because of convenient features than get ready for rude awakening.
P2P stands for person-to person, not Person-to-Binance-to-Person, but people can use whatever they want and learn the hard way.