Bitcoin Forum

Some months back, I created this thread "Has Bitcoin transaction double charged You? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5417928.msg61160907#msg61160907)" because of the incident that took place then, but lately, I have encountered different banks transaction issues.

I was making payments to a client for my goods, but after sending him the money on the 8th of March, he complained not to have received the money the whole of that day, so I had to pay up again, hoping to go and complain in the bank for the one he is yet to receive, but luckily the next day, being the 9th of March, the first money I sent to him got reversed to my account around 5:00 pm, and I tried sending the money to my company account because it was from my personal account that I conducted the first transaction.
I sent the money to my company account on March 9th after it was reversed, but I did not again receive the money in my company account (at a different bank) until March 14 before it was also reversed to my account (the account I sent from). This may not be a general problem with banks in most countries of the world, but these flaw with bank is not encountered in Bitcoin transactions.

{To use this as an example,} Bitcoin transactions fixed such flaw in banks. A Bitcoin transaction is irreversible. When you send Bitcoin for payment to someone, it doesn't reverse; as long as there is enough fee to settle the transaction and confirmation is ongoing in the blockchain, the transaction cannot be reversed. At least Bitcoin transactions don't have these flaw that are demonstrated by the banks.

 Bank APP Receipt
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Debit and Reversal (Rvsl) SMS Alart
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There are double-spend, reorganization risk and if you have trade deal with another trade partner, you must wait for bitcoin transaction to be confirmed, at least with one confirmation and safer three confirmations. Don't accept the deal if transaction has yet been confirmed by miners.

How many Bitcoin confirmations is enough? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5443953.0)

Bitcoin transaction are irreversible while fiat can be reversed hanged or denied after transaction has been initiated, this is one of the best derivative that benefit us from using bitcoin over fiat because the transactions are secured and fast, cheap and reliable that it get to he required destination without any embargo as being experienced with fiat, there's no third party in bitcoin transaction since it involves a p2p network.

The irreversible nature of bitcoin is one of the uniqueness of the currency. I have never had any network or transaction issues since I have been using bitcoin but my fiat account has given me countless transaction problems which have made me lose some money.
This feature could also be a weakness, especially when we are careless. When you mistakenly send funds to the wrong address it cannot also be reversed which could lead to loss of funds except you know the identity of the receiver. That's why we need to pay attention to the slightest details when processing bitcoin transactions.

You are fortunate @Dr.Bitcoin_Strange that the bank reversed the transactions and you were credited. Many people have lost their funds due to these transaction failures. In recent times we have seen long queues in banks due to faulty transactions that the account owners want to rectify.

This is not true.  Bitcoin is a CURRENCY and transactions work just like any other transaction with CURRENCY.

If I had you a $10 bill, the only ways I can reverse that transaction are:

• You to voluntarily give it back to me
• Using the threat of violence or law, I force you to give it back to me
• I figure out where you store it, and I illegally take it from that storage location without your permission

Bitcoin is the same.
Either you can send the transaction back voluntarily, or I can force you to send it back under threat, or I can illegally take your private key from your storage location without your permission.

The one benefit that Bitcoin has over other CURRENCIES in this regard is that it can be protected with a password, and the private key can be much easier to store in ways that make it significantly more difficult than physical currencies to take.


As I just pointed out, this is not a unique feature of Bitcoin. This is a common feature of all currencies.

However, Bitcoin has an added benefit in that exclusive control over the value can be transferred between people electronically, whereas most currencies can only be exchanged physically. When you send an electronic transaction using the traditional banking system, you are NOT sending currency. You are simply asking a 3rd party to update a database. This weakness is possible with Bitcoin as well if you choose to use a 3rd party, such as Coinbase or Binance, to handle your transactions.
 

Other currencies have this SAME weakness.  If you give the wrong person someone physical currency, it cannot be reversed.

I guess how well the banking system works depends on a country and a bank. I've heard many complaints about Germany with online banking often lagging well behind the transactions, the amounts of money being inaccurate and delays being pretty common. But in Ukraine, the banking system of the most popular banks works really well: you can see the transaction instantly, the balance is updated instantly as well, and I've never had a problem of a transaction not reaching me fast enough (unless it's something like an international transfer).
But the op is right that Bitcoin transactions are irreversible and you just need to wait till the first confirmation of a transaction to be sure the receiver got it (although some recommend to wait for more confirmations if the amount of money is big). But that also means that if you somehow make a mistake in the address name or decide to make another transaction because the first one isn't getting to the recipient fast enough, there's no authority to give you your money back. While it's not an issue for me, I know it can be stressful for some.

I think you're pretty much talking about $5 wrench attack, not about Bitcoin network can reverse your transaction if you ask someone who control Bitcoin, and no one is controlling Bitcoin. If you have protect your privacy and never submitted any KYC except your bank account, I don't think you can figure out who's behind the Bitcoin address because decentralized exchange or P2P platform will not give you their customer identity to unknown person.

Mobile banking and debit/credit card are protected with PIN code, I think PIN code and password are similar since it's too add more security layer.

However I agree with the other statements you pointed above.

Sometimes poor network can lead to the debt of your funds without the customer receiving it in his account. Bitcoin transaction can also be slow and takes time before your coin is being confirmed or received by the person that you are sending it to. This happens when the transaction fee is very low,miners will not want to add it to the blockchain until there is no longer pilled up transaction. Bitcoin is unique and you will never have any debit without the transaction getting to the receiver via P2P. Unlike banks that will debit you and fail to send the transaction to the receiver which will lead to the reversing of funds.

That is much more difficult than many people realize.

There are a lot of ways that various individuals and organizations can access information about you.

For example:

• If you aren't using a VPN, then many employees of your Internet Service Provider can see the transactions that you send
• If you ARE using a VPN, then many employees of your VPN provider can see the transactions you send.
• If you use an exchange to acquire your Bitcoin, or to convert your Bitcoin to local currency, then many employees of the exchange can see how much bitcoin you are exchanging and some of your Bitcoin addresses
• If you use a bank account to transfer your local currency to an exchange, then many employees of the bank can see how much local currency you are sending to and from the exchange
• If you are making purchases with your Bitcoin, then the employees of the businesses you are buying from can see some of your bitcoin addresses as well as how much bitcoin you've received at and sent from those addresses
• Any government with jurisdiction over any of those businesses can demand access to any of that information
• If you don't secure your wallet sufficiently, then anyone with access to your bitcoin wallet (friends, family, houseguests, repair, maintenance, & service employees that come to your home) can gain access to your wallet and obtain all information about your bitcoin history
• If you don't secure your wallet sufficiently, then criminals, government agencies, and private intelligence staff can break into your home, access your wallet, and obtain all information about your bitcoin history
• Hackers that gain access to any equipment or computers that you use to access your Bitcoin can obtain all information about your bitcoin history

These are just a few of the MANY ways that come immediately to ming that people leak their privacy all the time. I'm sure there are many others.


You trust every single employee of the bank to keep that KYC information private?


If they have it, there is always a risk of it being leaked either intentionally (for a court subpoena), or accidentally (if they are hacked, or have an upset employee). If you can avoid the KYC, you decrease your risk of information leak a bit, but depending on the service they may still store significant amounts of information about you (IP address, general geographic locations, Bitcoin addresses, size and frequency of transactions, etc).


Mobile banking and credit/debit card are NOT currency. They are database information stored by a 3rd party.

Currency is physical paper and coins. It cannot be protected with a password and since it is physical and larger it can be more difficult to secure than a private key or seed phrase.

With the issue of fiat scarcity in my country I have witnessed a lot of money being transferred from my account to another being reversed and with this action, many business owners have suffered loss but I have never experienced any bitcoin transaction that has been reversed.

Sometimes the kind of banking issues we encounter when carrying out transactions are based on the kind of communication (network interaction) the two banks are having. Let's say, for instance, you want to send money from United Bank of Africa (UBA) to Monipoint, Opay, Kuda, or any of the other online banking systems. (Nigeria Banks): those transactions will be debited from the sender's account, and when the receiver's account is having difficulty receiving money, the bank (sending bank) will have to withhold the transaction for some period of time because they want to be retrying it if it will eventually go through that's matching the transaction amount, time, and date with every transaction. If it was not successful at the time of accounting, then money is reversed into the sender's ledger account, which is recorded as an uncleared balance, until a dispute is filed by the sender to explain to the bank what really happened.
 
It's different with Bitcoin transactions because they are operating on different technologies and the Bitcoin Blockchain doesn't need any manual matching to confirm if the transaction was successful or not, or even charge you twice when you want to send something twice. Have you tried sending some Satoshi from your wallet to another, which will be showing as pending, and then sometimes trying to send out the same volume with the same transaction fee? Sometimes you will get an error warning of a duplicated transaction. I don't really know if this works on the Bitcoin Blockchain, but I can recall this incident on Eth transactions. 

This is for me the most accurate and important answer of this topic for now.

It is important to wait for at least 1 network confirmation, and ideally 2 or 3.

Bitcoin transactions are irreversible once confirmed, otherwise with a few clicks it is always possible to cancel it by double spending.
Of course, the author of the double spend will pay more network fees as the name suggests, double fees, but if you consider a transaction present in the mempool but not yet included in a block as final, you run the risk of losing your funds.

But apart from this aspect, once confirmed, this is definitely a great advantage of Bitcoin compared to FIAT currencies. No bad surprises, as long as you have your seed and it is stored in a safe way, you will never a bad surprise with Bitcoin.

I guess we've all had the unpleasant surprise of discovering hidden fees, unknown transactions, or a balance in our bank account that doesn't match what we expected, and all of that is totally obsolete with Bitcoin.

Those are really rare cases of a bank transfer being reversed after being successful because the consequences of this action could be of great lose to the payer or  payee, and this is likely to end in the corridors of the court as either of the parties can sue sof the inconvenience or at the least demand for what's owed to them.

But unlike fiat, Bitcoin only has the double spend feature that can override the first transaction technically making it a reversal but is also dependant of wallet used.

This isn't necessarily true, because communication is established mostly encrypted, unless you run a non-Tor Bitcoin full node, which talks unencrypted, but even that way, they can't figure out which transactions you propagate are yours. For the most part, if you connect to an SPV node, as many Bitcoin users must do, Internet provider doesn't know what information you exchange. However, to add another privacy leak, the SPV server owner knows your Bitcoin history if logs are not deleted.

^This was usually what an exchange platform did, they wait until there are at least 3 confirmations before they will transfer your purchased crypto to their wallet. Once a transaction has been validated by the network, it is included in a block of transactions and added to the blockchain ledger which anyone can see and validate the transaction. So yes it is irreversible, so we must be careful before making a transaction or when dealing with someone.

I don't usually accept deals unless I see about three or five confirmations. Bank transactions are surprising me these days; how can I do a bank transaction that was successful but a client did not receive the money, and it took about 48 hours before the money came back to my account mean while it was a successful transaction?


Mahn, I have to say it's luck, but there's not much of a line at the banks here; it's just stress to go and lodge the complaints. In the bank, sometimes you could just use the Bank app to complain; that could be rectified, but it can take days to get a response. And most times, this delay causes inconvenience and could put one's business at stake.


 But just like what happened with me in my bank, can you send a Bitcoin payment to someone and the person will not receive it, and after like 24 hours, the Bitcoin just drop back into your wallet?

No. Once the tx is confirmed that payment is irrecoverable because the BTC has been sent to an address. If you verify that it was sent to the correct address and the recipient says they did not get it - they are lying. Just check funds in that wallet address... Good point is that when they move the BTC you can trace it...

If it was sent to the wrong address -- well, it's gone.

I can say confirmed Bitcoin transaction is irreversible but those that are not are reversible.  One reason is that transactions as long as no confirmation can be cancelled, or double spend.  This is another reason why most centralized services require at least 2 confirmation to credit the account of the Bitcoin transaction. 

What I mean is there are conditions for the Bitcoin transaction to be irreversible. While many centralized exchanges only need 2 confirmation, it is said that 5 to six confirmation is needed to make the transaction irreversible.[1]



Honestly, I believe Bitcoin is more on being merchant friendly because it solves the problem of merchant where customers reverse their payment after the seller send the item.  Thus it somehow raises some problem for customers if the merchant does fraud, delivering fake items or not delivering the goods at all.  So irreversible transaction has their own weakness too, IMHO.

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[1] https://academy.bit2me.com/en/que-es-transaccion-irreversibles-criptomonedas/#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20in%20the%20case,has%20irreversibly%20validated%20our%20transaction.

I'm not trusting every single bank's employee, but since the most common way to cash out your Bitcoin are through banks. Cash out gift card, trade P2P with trusted person or directly spent it are possible, but it just harder and takes time.

I understand, but my point about to protect our privacy aren't for crime or avoid paying tax, but it just simply make criminal is harder to get our private information. If I use Tor to trade Bitcoin in decentralized exchange, my IP address will not compromised.

If the criminal only know Bitcoin address, size and frequency of transactions, they still don't have a way to know who I'm.

Yes, and i don't even mean double spending. A transaction can be rejected by miners if the sender used a very low transaction fee which would give that transaction a low priority in the blockchain, if after sometime and especially if the mempool is congested, miners still do not consider the transaction worth confirming because of the very low fee paid, the transaction would be rejected. What the sender has to do then is to broadcast the transaction again using a higher fee and then the miners would confirm the transaction, or they can just cancel it totally and the funds remain in their wallet.

That's absolutely correct; someone did that to me but was on Whatsapp. I wanted to buy an Apple phone from the lady, but I chose to pay her with crypto, and she asked me to pay with Tron (TRX), so after sending her payment and waiting for my phone to get delivered, she blocked me, and the contact she gave me was not reachable until today. The disadvantage that Blockchain transaction was that the Tron payment I sent to her could not be reversed. But even if it were a bank transaction, some banks would not do anything to help you get your money unless you go through a crime investigation agency, and that will require you to pay some fees too.


Well, maybe you have, but I have not experienced anything like that. After sending Bitcoin for your friend, perhaps the network confirmation is all complete in your wallet (it's showing transaction completed from your end), but the challenge here is that the receiver did not receive it until after 24 hours when it got back into your wallet. What you are saying here is that the transaction was abandoned due to a low fee, but what I mean is that the transaction was well completed. The bank transaction was successful, but the receiver did not get the money. It seems that while some people really understand these thread, others are also finding it difficult to do so. Is it too strange?

But this has its own advantages and disadvantages, just like a bank's reversibility feature. In other words, this is actually a double-edged sword. With a Bitcoin transaction, there is only a very small room for error. If you failed to double-check the address you will be sending Bitcoin to, for example, and you sent it to the wrong address, you might not get your Bitcoin back. In a bank transaction, you may have it reversed. The same goes to fraudulent transactions. The way Bitcoin transactions are designed, it is somewhat unforgiving to mistakes.

Because Bitcoin transaction is irreversible, when you sent it and it has confirmations, your coin gone forever. You can not reverse the blockchain to get your coin back, it is impossible.

To avoid mistake when sending, on online accounts, you can use WhiteList address feature. In your non-custodial wallet, you can label that address.

However, always double check on exchanges to make sure your WhiteListing is correct. Checking is about 1 minute but you will be safe and won't lose your coins by mistake.
In your wallet, if you labeled that address, when you click Pay, you will have another chance to check that address, again spend about 1 minute for double check.

Dust Attack, what it is, why it is dangerous and how to prevent falling to it (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5175238.0). Make sure you understand Coin Control feature to use it effectively against Dust attacks too.

I guess it was an issue with your bank account and the funds over there. You should have contacted your bank as soon as the reversal took place to know more about the issue. But yeah, banks are sometimes slow and unreliable. It is not as instant as they claim. Sometimes there are delays of more than one hour, or transaction takes place during the next working day. Bitcoin transactions, on the other hand, do have their advantages, like you have mentioned. They're irreversible, which can be both a pro and a con, depending on the situation (more pro than con to be honest).If you make transactions with bitcoin, there is no need to worry about reversals and delays after certain number of confirmations has been reached. But on the other hand, if you accidentally send Bitcoin to the wrong address, or your coins get stolen by hackers, there's no way to get it back.