Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin has a good project supporting it and the decentralization of the network is best in the crypto space. Satoshi has left everything in our hands, it's left to us to think and determine the future development of the network. As people are trying to develop the core, the backers offline will be a game changer in my thought.

I thought of it today that if banks have issues with their network, this will certainly bite but people will continue to transact with their paper money. What about bitcoin when there is no internet network?

With this suggested initiative, people can transact even when their gadget is not available. This is a huge issue that got me thinking if there could be possibility of having a note or any tenders in place offline in which the holders can later scan with their gadget and get their value credited when power and internet is later restored. It could be a coded paper or precious material depending on the value of BTC in it.

It might be a huge project in the future, much might not be said of it now and people might think it is not even necessary, but it will do a lot more in adopting it and having more access to it when power and internet is fails.

That idea is very interesting and addresses a potential challenge for Bitcoin and also other type of cryptocurrencies. Cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin are like always relied on the internet for transaction verification and communication, there have been discussions and developments in creating offline solutions or alternative methods for transacting. These physical bitcoins or crypto tokens can take various forms such object that hold the cryptographic keys necessary to access the digital funds. Introducing physical representations introduces elements of centralization, counterfeiting risks, and potential security vulnerabilities.

Bitcoin is more decentralized then altcoins. There are always whales in either Bitcoin or altcoins but with Bitcoin, less centralized power from whales then with altcoins.

Altcoins always have backers behind because they have to raise funds from community with ICO, IDO, IEO ... Those backers, venture capitals used to be considered as important indicator for quality and success of on altcoin project. In fact it is not true and collapses of Terra, Three Arrows Capital, Voyager, FTX and more in the last two years are very good reminders and examples for altcoin investors that Backers don't bring guarantee to quality of one altcoin project.

Your idea is nice, but something similar is already working in the form of Bitcoin debit cards. Many people who have no access to internet can easily use the ATM machines that accept Bitcoin cards and they can safely withdraw their money without even dependence on internet. It's still a nice idea and if someone works on it then things will be much easier for people who use Bitcoin.

I also agree that Satoshi has given us this amazing innovation and has left it in our hands, and now its betterment depends on us that how can we further improve this thing. I know that due to ordinals there are some issues in transactions these days, but the dev community is working very hard to find a solution.

Sadly there is no way to go round this. The idea of paper money will defeat some of the advantages of bitcoin and will just make it not different from the fiat currency. If you observe it is the printing of this paper money say excessively that has contributed to the devaluation of the fiat money and should bitcoin adopts this method then it will certainly loses the store of value asset that is. Also again paper money will require something like a bank where it is issued and this will certainly be done physically not minding the KYC protocol that would be involved and this process will certainly defeat the sole purpose of bitcoin which is total decentralization.


Yes the bitcoin ATM will actually do the work but OP is looking for a way in which when the internet is down bitcoin can be use and without the internet I think even the ATMs will be out of service (I stand to be corrected). Also the bitcoin ATM is just a means to transact using bitcoin when you gadget is not around but who issues the card? More so the ATM somehow also reduces the total decentralization, because one need to use the ATM physically and this exposes the user.

I have been thinking about this a lot lately as well. I don't think there is any way to use bitcoin at scale without internet. You can do some stuff on lightning with a mesh network but that would still require electricity. You can rely on peer-to-peer marketplace with physical goods but once the number of social connections within a "tribe" or society is greater than Dunbar's number (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number), you will need something to authenticate payments between 2 or more parties that do not know each other. I don't think that is possible at scale without bitcoin.

I think the closest you can ever get to physical tender is something like an OpenDime or the new SatsCard which enables you to load a balance with a single on-chain transaction and then unload it with another single on-chain transaction and it can be transferred by hand a countless number of times as anonymously as cash. In the unfortunate event that the device is lost, stolen, destroyed, etc, the bitcoin on the device are considered burnt.

I don't think there is any way for bitcoin to function as a global peer-to-peer electronic cash system without a global electronic information communication system; the internet.

Your idea would require that the sender doesn’t respond the coins before you are able to claim them. I think a better solution would be to have Bitcoin not have a single point of failure, like the internet in your scenario. Radio frequencies have been demonstrated to work to keep BTC going without the internet. Same with satellites. Those along with mesh networks could go a long way towards making Bitcoin functional with the internet.

The main objective of Bitcoin development as a decentralized systems has primarily been on improving the online transaction experience, stability and security. With the innovation of an offline Bitcoin transaction I don't think Bitcoin will serve it's major purpose anymore. 

All Bitcoin transaction needs the internet, to be broadcasted on the Blockchain  before it is validated. Without the internet, all these won't be possible.  If this idea is created and implemented and not carefully monitored it could cause a high level of insecurities including double spending(when people spend the same Bitcoin note twice or more), counterfeit, scams and many other factors that can put Bitcoin at risk. Some other cryptocurrencies has already adopted this Idea, but I don't think that it would serve as a good idea regarding bitcoin

The way the world is moving — internet connection globally is getting highly highly better in terms of adoption and overall stability, and will inevitably continue to move forward. Though it's technically an issue, I'd rather we focus on other things than "what if we lose internet connection?"

Do you not see the potential for Bitcoin to exist solely as a digital currency? Being a digital cryptocurrency means that it exists in the virtual world without a physical counterpart. Thus, you cannot alter the fundamental rules governing cryptocurrencies. Regardless of the specific project you are considering, creating something like Bitcoin would make it centralized, which goes against its core principles. Given that the internet is rapidly expanding globally and we have become heavily reliant on internet connectivity, it is difficult to envision a world without it. Therefore, I believe there aren't significant concerns regarding Bitcoin.

These physical bitcoins or crypto tokens can take various forms such object that hold the cryptographic keys necessary to access the digital funds. Introducing physical representations introduces elements of centralization, counterfeiting risks, and potential security vulnerabilities. Bitcoin is more decentralized than altcoins. Bitcoin development as a decentralized systems has been on improving the online transaction experience, stability and security. So I don't think offline transaction of Bitcoin will make sense or will make Bitcoin a it's valuable, no it's not.

I was about to say that, lets focus on other things  ;D
Op must have forgot that if he lose internet connection with a particular network operator he can change the network and complete the transaction.

With banks the most common issue is 'government holidays' which I have faced many difficulties. How can you complete a transaction in a holiday? But other hand bitcoin has no such issues.

Similar to the on-chain transaction that hosting by a third party, isn't it?
Remember that Bitcoin transactions can't be directly conducted offline since the Bitcoin network relies on internet connectivity for transaction verification and broadcasting. So, therefore, if there's no internet network, Bitcoin transactions wouldn't be possible, even with offline wallets.

That's it and I tend to agree, even now in remote areas have internet connectivity.
Just call Elon Musk and order Starlink kit.  :D

Banks are so innovative and they adopt according to how internet evolves. That's why bank release a card so that their clients can transact without any hassle if they want something especially during holidays. We can swipe our cards if we want to buy something and also there's atm machine if we need immediate cash. But as a bitcoin user its really good to see our used coin will becaem legal tender to our country since this could give us more convenient since we don't need to do more further hassle if we want transaction using bircoin to bank or bank to bitcoin.

One of the advantages of Bitcoin is we can do it offline until sign in to the wallet, And for broadcast (if the Internet died or shut down), we can use the satellite, radio, or transmitter. I don't know, maybe not going smoothly right now, but it's not possible next there is further development because this is a very important thing for the community, we don't know if the war might continue to nuclear war where that make Internet shutdown, and possibilities radio transmitter which only can work for to communicate and send something.

https://news.bitcoin.com/no-internet-no-problem-how-to-send-bitcoin-by-amateur-radio/

First and foremost, Bitcoin is an electronic cash system. Personally, I believe that Bitcoin doesn't really compete against bills and coins. So there is really no reason for Bitcoin to have a physical version.

Secondly, Bitcoin is ruled by codes. I don't know how these codes could continue to run Bitcoin when you are dealing with physical notes. Although there are indeed loaded Bitcoin bills and coins, they are mostly collectibles. I think they won't work like the fiat cash that we have primarily because the issuer generates the private keys, and we have to trust them. I'm afraid Bitcoin doesn't work that way.

But you might want to check out Machankura.^[1] It works even without a smart phone or an internet. I haven't tried it, though. But it has already thousands of users in Africa.

---

[1] https://decrypt.co/123641/machankura-african-bitcoin-adoption-feature-phones-text

Bitcoin was designed to make use of internet and Satoshi knows that the internet will keep on improving rapidly. We had 3G,4G and now 5G,the internet is now part of the world daily means of living to interact and for businesses. The internet is needed for the broadcasting of transactions,you also need the internet to have access to your wallet where you store your bitcoin. If you look at the creation of bitcoin,it was created to totally depend on the internet. If bitcoin have a backer, it means that it will be controlled by government and can be manipulated, leaving its users without financial freedom. Decentralization was the purpose of creating bitcoin to give people financial freedom from third party. So please let's not think of centralization on a decentralized digital currency,they are two opposite things.

You can pay with Bitcoin at any store that accepts Bitcoin payment by scanning the store barcode, the Fiat was designed go work offline and Bitcoin was design to work online, this doesn't baffle me because it's working the way it's supposed to work.

Satoshi never designed Bitcoin for offline purposes, the only thing that should be offline is your private key and recovery seed, no internet no way to transact your Bitcoin, moreover, internet is now a big part of the world now and it's here to stay, it would have been a big headache if Satoshi would have made Bitcoin offline, let's show some appreciation.

Been able to keep my Bitcoin offline makes it more secure and this is enough, even if the internet is down, your Bitcoin is still yours wherever you kept it.

This idea would complicate bitcoin, which is already considered to be over complicated by people looking into it from the outside. Plus it needs a third party backing it up, a peer to peer system does not need a middle man between transactions.

If the internet shuts down temporarily, there are some alternative ways being experimented to send bitcoin which are not common place yet, so we would have to wait out the downtime, if it goes down permanently, there would be a lot more issues to worry about than bitcoin. But your bitcoins would be safe for when the network finds an alternative way to transact.

- Jay -

There have been attempts in the past though to used and transaction bitcoin without Internet, this is one, How to Send Bitcoin Over Ham Radio. (https://survivedoomsday.com/how-to-send-bitcoin-over-ham-radio/)

Another is here, posted by @fillippone,  [Total privacy Bitcoin]: off grid Transactions LoRaWan/goTenna. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5230202.0)

The connection with the internet is down and how to support bitcoin if this happens is not a thing to think about too much, we are in the age of technology and it is certain that this kind of thing is necessary in life, talking about the percentage of missing internet support is the same as talking about how bitcoin was in the past when it was not as valuable as it is now. These doubts were still a thing when this actually happened, but leave things to their due process and bitcoin will remain a functioning digital currency in cyberspace.

It is precisely the centralized financial system that is going to be more problematic and the ATMs cannot be used when the internet stops, so this kind of thing is not possible in the long term and world access almost includes the need for the Internet and this is essential for the journey. Today's problem when there is a hack and the internet crashes because of certain people, but not in the thought stage when the internet stops working all over the world.

Soon cash will not exist. Banks and governments around the world have been discussing removing notes/excluding them as legal tender, in order to lock people into the banking system. From here comes chaos. Anyone can be excluded from the economy at the click of a button, and this will probably end in the exponential growth of Bitcoin. I digress from the main point of this topic however...


Your idea is fine however there is a flaw - In order for this idea to work, a central party would need to provide this tender and therefore they would have access to private keys. This would be the equivalent of a custodial wallet.

Or, an open source tool is created to create your tender, which you can then create notes yourself and spend them yourself. The private key being its authenticity. To make this work though, merchants and others who are accepting would need to be able to have a tool that can sweep the private key. The next problem from there, is change. (e.g, I have a 0.01 BTC tender item, though I am buying something worth 0.009 BTC. How do I get the 0.001 BTC change, and what is stopping this amount from being swept by the seller/merchant/receiver too?)

The next issue after that, is the design standard. Since a private key is all that is needed for valid tender, what would this look like? How do people distinguish amounts (as there is nothing stopping all possibilities of design). I suppose Ordinals or NFTs might even be useful here...

Creating an offline option is possible, but not as simple as it seems in theory.

Honestly, I am not really fond of the idea itself. having anything like what you describe offline would only give a little convenience (which isn't even really needed by the majority) in exchange for a huge security risk not just for your crypto but for your life as well. And besides, I believe that bitcoin remaining online would be for the best. Just think about it, if there ever comes a time when the electricity and internet disappears that would just mean that the world is already fcked to an unimaginable extent. Which would only make bitcoins or any crypto that can be accessed offline entirely useless.

Any digital currency (both fiat and crypto) is vulnerable to network failure. That's one of the main problems with cryptocurrencies: they can't exist in non-digital (material) form. So network stability (at least at the level of core hubs) is vital for the existence of cryptocurrencies.

Though seemingly beneficial, its vital to scrutinize the initiative entirely. The proposal threatens Bitcoin's principles by endorsing centralization, doesn't it contradict Bitcoin' ethos? How can we prevent power misuse by this authority? How can we evade a scenario of undue dominance over the BTC market? Offline transactions also bring forward the intricate issue of change transactions. What mechanisms can we establish to prevent merchants from pocketing the full tender? Lastly, the standard design. How can we ensure the tangible Bitcoin holds the right value? Implementing ordinals or NFTs offline could pose challenges. The proposal, while intriguing, bears significant complexity and possible issues. However, lets not forget, Bitcoin is about transformation and innovation

Not only Bitcoin but today everything relies on internet connection and banking services you are talking about also need it so internet can never go off permanently because it would cost trillion dollars of loss to the whole world if you understand how everything is connected with it.But with btc for some time transactions would not happen but after that everything would be normal like in LN you have to broadcast the main transactions only so in future there could be more possible solutions for it we don't need to worry about it.