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Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: apogio on November 13, 2023, 05:54:18 PM



Title: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: apogio on November 13, 2023, 05:54:18 PM
I am curious to know if (and how much) Bitcoin is adopted in low- and middle-income countries.

I am reading the Bitcoin Magazine (Issue 24 - The El Salvador Issue) (https://store.bitcoinmagazine.com/products/el-salvador-issue).

Here are some stats, according to the magazine:

  • The global average cost of sending $200 remained high at 6.5% - or $13, in 2020.
  • In Sub-Saharan Africa, the average cost of sending $200 was 8.2% in 2020.
  • Sending money from Japan to Brazil cost 11.5% in remittance costs in 2020
  • 1 out of 9 people on the planet depend on remittances sent by migrant workers to support their families.

According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped? Do you use it to avoid all those remittance costs?


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: BIT-BENDER on November 13, 2023, 06:02:35 PM
Based on the transaction process Bitcoin Is a better option than using the traditional financial system, also it's easier to send Bitcoin from your wallet to the receiver wallet no matter where dey are and the transaction process is faster than that of the traditional financial system which may take days or even weeks
Yes to the average income earners I think having an easy financial Transaction system is a plus.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Zaguru12 on November 13, 2023, 06:21:46 PM

According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped? Do you use it to avoid all those remittance costs?

Yes I would say the ease of bitcoin transfer during cross border transactions has actually been the biggest flex of bitcoin against other traditional means of exchange. Aside the charges which as you pointed out is very low when compared fiat, another advantage again is the lack of limitations on using bitcoin, if you use fiat through banks you have daily or monthly limit for the transfer or better still the charges is in batches based on amount to be sent and not uniform like that of bitcoin, and this sometimes frustrating for an average citizen in this middle- incoming countries.

Another thing that drive adoption aside remittances in this countries is the continuous devaluation of their currencies in high rate. This devaluation requires to look for a more stable store of value and bitcoin provides them with


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: apogio on November 13, 2023, 06:29:34 PM
Another thing that drive adoption aside remittances in this countries is the continuous devaluation of their currencies in high rate. This devaluation requires to look for a more stable store of value and bitcoin provides them with

Super important note, thanks for mentioning that.

According to this (https://www.barrons.com/news/argentina-ended-2022-with-94-8-inflation-highest-in-32-years-official-01673551508), Argentina (for example) faced 98% inflation in 2022.

Imagine going to the store and suddenly, in a year, every price has doubled...

also it's easier to send Bitcoin from your wallet to the receiver wallet no matter where dey are and the transaction process is faster than that of the traditional financial system which may take days or even weeks

Easier and faster, yes! This is also true. I wonder though, how much time it takes to send a traditional remittance from a country to another. I have never sent one, so...


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: un_rank on November 13, 2023, 06:32:17 PM
I do not use it for cross border transactions cause those I regularly transact with are not exactly excited about the prospects of bitcoin and refuse to use it, even for the singular purpose of receiving.
On a more general perspective, Bitcoin is cheaper and faster than other cross border channels for money transfer. For everyday expenses the transaction fee can be a burden ads it is now, but for larger transactions to farther distances it is the ideal option to use, showing that bitcoin can be scalable depending on how it is used.

This feature is not limited to low and middle income countries. Anyone who engages in international transactions will appreciate using bitcoin as the channel.

- Jay -


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Davidvictorson on November 13, 2023, 06:35:39 PM
I am curious to know if (and how much) Bitcoin is adopted in low- and middle-income countries.
According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped? Do you use it to avoid all those remittance costs?
I am from a low and middle income country. 9 out of 10 people I know do not use bitcoin to avoid remittance costs. It would have been a great option but our folks and friends who are outside the country in a developed, do not mind the fees mostly because they are not as crazy about bitcoin as we who are in the LMICs are. And we, do not bother to tell them about this as we feel it is not as important despite its benefits since bitcoin is not accepted in our country.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: cafter on November 13, 2023, 06:42:49 PM
According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped?

Yeah, sending money with bitcoin is often cheaper than other methods because the fees are lower.
but, you've got to keep in mind that there are still some fees for transferring bitcoin and converting it into the local currency of the country you're sending it to.
so, it's a better deal, but you have got to think about all the costs.







Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: apogio on November 13, 2023, 06:46:47 PM
This feature is not limited to low and middle income countries. Anyone who engages in international transactions will appreciate using bitcoin as the channel.

Absolutely, but people in countries where salaries are higher tend to:
1. use banks a lot.
2. don't really care about the remittance cost because it doesn't look so scary.
3. don't pay such high remittance costs because these countries have bank arrangements that offer more reasonable fees. This sucks because it feels like the richer pay less in fees when transacting together.

I am from a low and middle income country. 9 out of 10 people I know do not use bitcoin to avoid remittance costs. It would have been a great option but our folks and friends who are outside the country in a developed, do not mind the fees mostly because they are not as crazy about bitcoin as we who are in the LMICs are. And we, do not bother to tell them about this as we feel it is not as important despite its benefits since bitcoin is not accepted in our country.

That's disappointing mate. I hope you can cope with remittance costs easily enough. This "our folks and friends who are outside the country in a developed, do not mind the fees" felt like a punch to the stomach to me... It is actually the points (2 & 3) that I mention in my answer to un_rank above.

Yeah, sending money with bitcoin is often cheaper than other methods because the fees are lower.
but, you've got to keep in mind that there are still some fees for transferring bitcoin and converting it into the local currency of the country you're sending it to.
so, it's a better deal, but you have got to think about all the costs.

To be honest, I didn't consider exchanging the Bitcoin to the local currency after receiving it. You are right... I wish we could use Bitcoin without needing to convert it back to local currencies.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: aoluain on November 13, 2023, 06:54:43 PM
I do not use it for cross border transactions cause those I regularly transact with are not exactly excited about the prospects of bitcoin and refuse to use it, even for the singular purpose of receiving.
On a more general perspective, Bitcoin is cheaper and faster than other cross border channels for money transfer. For everyday expenses the transaction fee can be a burden ads it is now, but for larger transactions to farther distances it is the ideal option to use, showing that bitcoin can be scalable depending on how it is used.

This feature is not limited to low and middle income countries. Anyone who engages in international transactions will appreciate using bitcoin as the channel.

- Jay -

Thats a good point about people who are receiving Bitcoin from overseas, they might not
want to get involved with it either because of fear of the learning curve or not understanding
the process involved.

I can understand though how people would want to use the most economic way
of sending money across borders to a low to middle income country, every percent
saved makes a difference and Bitcoin can make that difference according to some
of the numbers in the OP's report.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: btc78 on November 13, 2023, 06:57:24 PM
my country has one of the highest remittances in the world from OFWs but 4% of the total money you’ll send will be deducted as remittance fee sometimes it can even go higher especially if you’re doing transactions in the bank
According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped?

Yeah, sending money with bitcoin is often cheaper than other methods because the fees are lower.
but, you've got to keep in mind that there are still some fees for transferring bitcoin and converting it into the local currency of the country you're sending it to.
so, it's a better deal, but you have got to think about all the costs.


it’s definitely way lower in btc there’s probably only 1-1.5% transaction fee compared to the 4% of our traditional transfer fees in low-middle income countries that’s a huge difference

one of bitcoin’s benefits is how fast and easy it is to transfer money to a wallet due to its borderless characteristic


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: apogio on November 13, 2023, 07:04:12 PM
and Bitcoin can make that difference according to some of the numbers in the OP's report.

Can it? This is my point... I am afraid not many people use it.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: taufik123 on November 13, 2023, 07:08:50 PM
also it's easier to send Bitcoin from your wallet to the receiver wallet no matter where dey are and the transaction process is faster than that of the traditional financial system which may take days or even weeks

Easier and faster, yes! This is also true. I wonder though, how much time it takes to send a traditional remittance from a country to another. I have never sent one, so...
Cheaper and faster?
Probably about the same, Some remittance fees differ depending on the country.
Now sending Fiat money is easier using the E-Wallet App and is sent instantly on business days.
The fee varies around $7-$20 $3-$11 depending on the current exchange rate and the destination country chosen.

But the advantages of using crypto, all can be done instantly, the sending fee is lower (if there is no spike in transactions) and all can be done anonymously, without any identity.

But the obstacle at the moment is that those who work abroad don't really understand Bitcoin or crypto, they prefer to send through banks and some supported E-Wallets. The lack of crypto knowledge hinders real adoption.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: apogio on November 13, 2023, 07:11:08 PM
The fee varies around $7-$20 depending on the current exchange rate and the destination country chosen.

Isn't it too expensive? Also, since I don't know the application, is it a flat fee or a percentage of the total transacted value?


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: taufik123 on November 13, 2023, 07:48:19 PM
Isn't it too expensive? Also, since I don't know the application, is it a flat fee or a percentage of the total transacted value?
Yup, some may be cheaper, but some are more expensive, depending on the country.
If the country is still quite close it will be cheaper, but when sending to European countries such as the US,
it requires a fairly expensive cost and a long waiting schedule.

 There is also a limit for each money transfer that will be made.
It is not more efficient than Bitcoin and Bitcoin is certainly still cheaper.

Here's a comparison of the fees and how long it will take for the money to arrive, The name of the app is "Flip"

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/11/13/zGDFG.md.jpeg (https://www.talkimg.com/image/zGDFG)https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/11/13/zGOhD.md.jpeg (https://www.talkimg.com/image/zGOhD)https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/11/13/zGWlf.md.jpeg (https://www.talkimg.com/image/zGWlf)
https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/11/13/zGpdj.md.jpeg (https://www.talkimg.com/image/zGpdj)https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/11/13/zG0V8.md.jpeg (https://www.talkimg.com/image/zG0V8)https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/11/13/zGq6Z.md.jpeg (https://www.talkimg.com/image/zGq6Z)


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: apogio on November 13, 2023, 07:57:12 PM
<~>

Thanks for the info. Looks like Bitcoin wins in all categories (fees, limits etc).


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Mr.right85 on November 13, 2023, 08:00:10 PM
According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped? Do you use it to avoid all those remittance costs?
If Bitcoin actually negates all those % cost to sending money across to a party at an end, be it across border or not, the absence of fees makes it helpful but, it comes at the expense of revenue generation to the state.
While it might be helpful to an individual, it isn’t very helpful to the state but, that depends on what ends the % cut is actually directed to.

I haven’t got the chance to make a transaction across borders but it’s an option I’ll rather prefer than having yo go through the rigor of sending fiat across and having to fill forms across the counter in local banks.

Do it at home or anywhere is a choice we all sort out for in recent developments, Bitcoin has got that and that’s what we want/would be doing.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Ruttoshi on November 13, 2023, 08:22:06 PM
This feature is not limited to low and middle income countries. Anyone who engages in international transactions will appreciate using bitcoin as the channel.

Absolutely, but people in countries where salaries are higher tend to:
1. use banks a lot.
2. don't really care about the remittance cost because it doesn't look so scary.
3. don't pay such high remittance costs because these countries have bank arrangements that offer more reasonable fees. This sucks because it feels like the richer pay less in fees when transacting together.
Maybe, they are hodling their bitcoin investment and believe in making profit with it, such rich people will prefer using the bank because their bitcoin investment is a no go area since they have abundant of fiat. Another thing is that what if they don't have bitcoin because it is not every rich man that has bitcoin or accepted to adopt bitcoin.

I still see it that as long as it is across boarder payment bitcoin is the best because it safes time and doesn't need a third party to limit you from making your desired amount of transaction. The punchline is that the third world countries wouldn't use bitcoin for payment not because of the high transaction fee but because they see it more as an investment than a payment method.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: apogio on November 13, 2023, 08:26:58 PM
The punchline is that the third world countries wouldn't use bitcoin for payment not because of the high transaction fee but because they see it more as an investment than a payment method.

That's a great thing about Bitoin. Isn't it? It can be used both as an investment and a payment method. I mean with FIAT you can pay, but because of inflation you can't just hold and wait for it to appreciate, since it will drop in value as time passes.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: GeorgeJohn on November 13, 2023, 08:41:44 PM
Based on the transaction process Bitcoin Is a better option than using the traditional financial system, also it's easier to send Bitcoin from your wallet to the receiver wallet no matter where dey are and the transaction process is faster than that of the traditional financial system which may take days or even weeks
Yes to the average income earners I think having an easy financial Transaction system is a plus.
The only disadvantages of using bitcoin for transacting intercontinental is that the fee of bitcoin price is very expensive and even you are using 🏧  machines to send bitcoin across to another countries it will still be expensive whereas traditional currency you will not spend the charges you spend in bitcoin but the only difference is that Bitcoin will get you the destination you want very faster than traditional currency, most the charges of bitcoin do increase immediately their is a bullrun or change in bitcoin marketcap via increment.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Crypto Library on November 13, 2023, 08:42:27 PM
Undoubtedly Bitcoin or cryptocurrency is better from any other financial transaction system. However, sometimes Bitcoin transaction fees become high due to transaction congestion. Even if the transaction is less costly than the commonly used bank system.
So to answer your question it must be said that bitcoin is better option for all people from low class and middle class income country to people. But if you talk about remittance cost, remittance cost is given by the government of a country as a percentage of income. Accordingly, if the government brings any currency as remittance from a foreign country by evading taxes, it will be considered as black money by that government. Correct me if I misunderstood your question. Among the countries where cryptocurrency is legal, many countries levy a large amount of tax on income from cryptocurrency, which is a different matter.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: BitcoinPanther on November 13, 2023, 09:20:48 PM
Easier and faster, yes! This is also true. I wonder though, how much time it takes to send a traditional remittance from a country to another. I have never sent one, so...

According to the internet[1] it usually takes on or two days up to 5 working days depending on the currency. So using Bitcoin to transfer fund is way much faster than the traditional bank transfers.  Aside from that I believe Bitcoin fee is also way cheaper than this cross-boarder processing fee charges.

So to have a cheaper and faster means to send funds to other country, I believe Bitcoin is a good option for low and middle income countries since people can have a cheaper means of transferring funds while enjoying a faster transaction if we are talking about international transfer.




[1] https://www.inpay.com/cross-border-insights/how-long-do-international-bank-transfers-take


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Odohu on November 13, 2023, 10:17:29 PM
This is part of the reason Bitcoin was created, to offer a better alternative to conventional payment systems. Personally, it was the need to send money across borders that led me to Bitcoin because accessing FX for other needs was restricted in my country apart from education, medical needs and some selected businesses. I found Bitcoin which was easier, cheaper and more convenient to use.

I am curious to know if (and how much) Bitcoin is adopted in low- and middle-income countries.
People in my country see Bitcoin more from the angle of investment than what it was actually meant for, however, there is growing awareness on the usage aspect of Bitcoin, it may be slower than expected but there is progress. When the Russian-Ukraine war broke out, a lot of people repatriated their money home through Bitcoin. Some that were also stranded were able to receive funds through Bitcoin as well


According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped? Do you use it to avoid all those remittance costs?
Bitcoin has helped me and a lot of people I know but the percentage of people using Bitcoin is still very low. Not many people know that Bitcoin is a cheaper option for cross borders transaction.  I feel we still have a long way to go.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Dunamisx on November 13, 2023, 10:26:11 PM
We should not make it come in any complex form, bitcoin is for everyone, if we want to use bitcoin, then we are free to independently adopt this digital decentralized currency for our own good, for the low income earners or countries, it's an opportunity for them to take advantage in bitcoin to balance up their lives by taking advantage of the opportunity in bitcoin adoption, everything about it's fees or cost are not beyond the average of what they can accept because everything is made affordable with the use of bitcoin regardless of class or status.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: dothebeats on November 13, 2023, 10:34:06 PM
It will help most of the time, but when there is something going on with the network like the one we're having now, bitcoin isn't any better compared to these money transfer services. Assuming they wanted to use bitcoin for the sole purpose of sending and receiving remittances, transfer fees aren't the only fees they'll be looking at but also the change fees together with the withdrawal fees the exchanges will be asking. There's a lot of things to consider before jumping the gun and say bitcoin is the 'one' solution that overseas workers are looking for to help them lessen the amount of fees that are being taken from them.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: oktana on November 13, 2023, 11:05:39 PM
Of course Bitcoin is really helping. For the data you provided, there are fixed percentages charged and if you’re sending more money, you get charged even more. Bitcoin isn’t that greedy, all you pay for is just the necessary transaction fee that is not dependent on how much you are transacting. Also, you even have an option to pay lesser transaction fee for a slower transaction (same time the banks could take just to process papers, etc).


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: serjent05 on November 13, 2023, 11:26:09 PM
It will help most of the time, but when there is something going on with the network like the one we're having now, bitcoin isn't any better compared to these money transfer services.

Bitcoin is different, the user or sender just needs to pay an adequate transaction fee to be prioritized.  I think this is not possible for international transfers in the banking system. Anyone can confirm?  As far as I know bank fastest international transaction is within 1 day but obviously it won't be as short as 10 minutes.  Even Moneygram is known to have faster international fund transfers gives 1 hour at least for the transfer to come through with a fee ranging from $9.99  to $256 when sending $10k(from USA - PH converted to local currency) depending on the option we choose.  Bitcoin with the same amount of transactions is way cheaper than this.

Assuming they wanted to use bitcoin for the sole purpose of sending and receiving remittances, transfer fees aren't the only fees they'll be looking at but also the change fees together with the withdrawal fees the exchanges will be asking. There's a lot of things to consider before jumping the gun and say bitcoin is the 'one' solution that overseas workers are looking for to help them lessen the amount of fees that are being taken from them.

Still, I think Bitcoin is way more economical when transferring huge funds than using banks for international transfers. 



Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Dr.Bitcoin_Strange on November 13, 2023, 11:53:41 PM
Well, yes, Bitcoin has helped. In my country, the value of our local currency is low compared to the dollar, and in a few spaces, I buy good cross-border. I sometimes make payments in dollars or another currency, whose value is also higher than my local currency. Before I exchange the currency I wish to pay with through the traditional banking system, the process takes a bit of time, and the exchange rate is high too, but if I have to pay with Bitcoin, it doesn't take any longer to process or get approval from anyone in order for my payment to go through.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: wallet4bitcoin on November 14, 2023, 12:52:22 AM
I am curious to know if (and how much) Bitcoin is adopted in low- and middle-income countries.

I am reading the Bitcoin Magazine (Issue 24 - The El Salvador Issue) (https://store.bitcoinmagazine.com/products/el-salvador-issue).

Here are some stats, according to the magazine:

  • The global average cost of sending $200 remained high at 6.5% - or $13, in 2020.
  • In Sub-Saharan Africa, the average cost of sending $200 was 8.2% in 2020.
  • Sending money from Japan to Brazil cost 11.5% in remittance costs in 2020
  • 1 out of 9 people on the planet depend on remittances sent by migrant workers to support their families.

According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped? Do you use it to avoid all those remittance costs?

I think its part of the reasons why we have Bitcoin Lightening Network, however, we still have about an average $3 fees attached to it (at maximum, that's what I've been charged for transactions on the regular category). I still think the remittances costs much more as there are also some hidden charges that may incurr costs in some cases.

In the Blockchain Network, once you are being charged on the network for fees, its a one-off fee, again the volatility can also be advantageous to you if there happens to be an increase in price and against you if the price plummets.

If we talk about remittances then Bitcoin is good for those low and middle income countries but for internal expenditure, I do not think it will be as loads of those people survive on an average of $1/day.



Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Sarah Azhari on November 14, 2023, 01:07:11 AM

  • 1 out of 9 people on the planet depend on remittances sent by migrant workers to support their families.
According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped? Do you use it to avoid all those remittance costs?
I've felt that how I live with that situation. But, We live in an era where technology continuously developing, and if we don't move along to follow new developments we will definitely be left behind. In this case, we don't help migrant workers who help to send the fiat money but help the people who want to send the money to another country. As you prove the stat above, I really sure many people helped because there are more people than migrant workers. So, with this situation of course bitcoin is the solution, If the migrant workers want to continue his work, better to them learning how the bitcoin work, maybe they will get jobs with that, like to be escrow, or create p2p decentralization exchange.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: dansus021 on November 14, 2023, 01:27:23 AM
According to your data, Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies help a lot personally I'm using USD as a default payment. and Im just registered on wise the fee rate and forex rate are expensive in my opinion even tho Wise is considered cheaper than a bank you can get way cheaper by using crypto. The spread of forex here on crypto is very tight compared to other forex. So I do believe crypto is the best choice to do transactions with other countries.

the cost and convenience in my opinion are great in crypto In my opinion.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Solokan on November 14, 2023, 03:36:41 AM
Bitcoin has helped my life a lot starting from income and others. and indeed, when compared to sending traditional money, of course it is always complicated and sometimes the process is also a bit complicated, in contrast to bitcoin which always provides convenience and whatever the amount of btc sent is of course fast, the main thing is that there is convenience that btc provides.

but in this case of course every country has different opinions, but in El Salvador, because as far as I know, BTC has been legalized, can use BTC more freely because it can be used as a means of payment, but in some countries, of course, BTC is still prohibited from being used as a means of payment. and I think everything has a reason, and in this case only the government knows what is best for its people.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Zlantann on November 14, 2023, 04:21:41 AM
According to the internet[1] it usually takes on or two days up to 5 working days depending on the currency. So using Bitcoin to transfer fund is way much faster than the traditional bank transfers.  Aside from that I believe Bitcoin fee is also way cheaper than this cross-boarder processing fee charges.
There are cases where bank transfer can take several weeks to go through especially when it is suspected to be proceeds from crime. Sometimes you have to wait longer when there are public holidays, political instability, conflict, or natural disasters but this is not the case with Bitcoin.

Quote
So to have a cheaper and faster means to send funds to other country, I believe Bitcoin is a good option for low and middle income countries since people can have a cheaper means of transferring funds while enjoying a faster transaction if we are talking about international transfer.

One of the reasons that most of these citizens still use fiat is because of ignorance and government policies. Many of them are not aware of the benefits of using Bitcoin and in most cases don't care about privacy. Another reason is that these citizens will avoid using Bitcoin because it looks more complicated to them (due to high rate of illiteracy in some low income nations). Since most banks are restricted from dealing with Bitcoin, people will still have to look for means to convert the funds to fiat. Meanwhile, they would get the funds directly in fiat if they use bank transfers.

It will help most of the time, but when there is something going on with the network like the one we're having now, bitcoin isn't any better compared to these money transfer services. Assuming they wanted to use bitcoin for the sole purpose of sending and receiving remittances, transfer fees aren't the only fees they'll be looking at but also the change fees together with the withdrawal fees the exchanges will be asking. There's a lot of things to consider before jumping the gun and say bitcoin is the 'one' solution that overseas workers are looking for to help them lessen the amount of fees that are being taken from them.

This is the point that is ringing in my mind. After incurring the cost of receiving the funds in your wallet, there is still another fee for converting the money to fiat. The cost of Bitcoin transaction is certainly cheap but it will become more attractive when it becomes cheaper. The benefit of Bitcoin is far beyond transaction fees but a cheaper rate will attract low-income earners to the sector.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: danadc on November 14, 2023, 01:20:55 PM
You don't have to see Bitcoin like this, you have to see it as a global option of Becoming a very millionaire if you make the investment at these times, is that what Should be said , that it is good and profitable in very low economic countries? Yes, the benefits are obvious, but that is not the only thing because what countries with bad economies do is take advantage of the inflation rates in their local currencies to be able to buy more dollars, that is what countries with inflation do. high live, for bitcoin s? It could be but they are going to make it very undervalued, because black markets are created and they are really unfair to the market, but even so, yes, it is very Valuable.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: uneng on November 14, 2023, 02:26:05 PM
According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped? Do you use it to avoid all those remittance costs?
Yes. It has been helping a lot of people working on foreigner countries and people working on the internet. Before Bitcoin, we were restricted to Paypal which charges a very abusive tax for their services, besides the local regulations from our country which also grabs another abusive portion of our hard earned money through more taxes. In the end, you aren't working for yourself, but for the government and the middleman service.

That was pretty pointless and annoying, but thankfully Bitcoin changed our reality for the better. Now we can make our income virtually and still enjoy it on its maximum profitability, while people working abroad can also send money to their families on their native countries without being extorted by the local government.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: hugeblack on November 14, 2023, 02:33:11 PM
Bitcoin can help if its market value increases so that the price becomes stable, then the transaction fees will be much lower than the cost of mining Bitcoin, and then the price of the currency may become stable and become a currency for international trade rather than an asset to be speculated on, and this may happen within 16 years.
Currently, Bitcoin fees, although low, pay more hidden fees due to lack of adoption.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: tbct_mt2 on November 14, 2023, 02:38:22 PM
Bitcoin can help if its market value increases so that the price becomes stable, then the transaction fees will be much lower than the cost of mining Bitcoin, and then the price of the currency may become stable and become a currency for international trade rather than an asset to be speculated on, and this may happen within 16 years.
Bitcoin can help people in low and middle income countries to be richer if they invest in Bitcoin and don't lose their bitcoin through trading. To succeed in investment, they must hold their bitcoin and it brings two benefits: avoid losing bitcoin by trading in spot or margin or futures; reduce waste of bitcoin for transaction fee if they move bitcoin to exchange, back to own wallet many times.

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Currently, Bitcoin fees, although low, pay more hidden fees due to lack of adoption.
One of hidden fee is Withdrawal fee. Centralized exchanges charge very high Withdrawal fee and they don't say but they include like their business operation cost, wallet security and maintenance cost to user withdrawal fee. They do batch payment for many users' withdrawals but charge a same high withdrawal fee on every user in that batch payment.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: kryptqnick on November 14, 2023, 03:04:24 PM
My country is certainly low-income, and it's a very crypto-friendly country. We have tons of exchanges, major foundations accept donations in Bitcoin and a few altcoins, and there's a general roadmap to gradually adopt legislation to become a good place for crypto businesses, as well as enable usage of Bitcoin as money.
Of course, many people still use international bank transfers, but Bitcoin is quite well-known. International fees really depend on a country, and sometimes there are no fees at all, but the exchange rate isn't great, and you often can't send fiat without exchanging it.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: KiaKia on November 14, 2023, 03:05:26 PM
Bitcoin can be send to anyone in anywhere in the world, it doesn't work using location, it works using Bitcoin address to another Bitcoin address, even if the receiver is in another planet with internet connection they will receive their Bitcoin.

From my own past experience, I believe that countries with low income and hardship are into Bitcoin more than other countries, it's cheaper for transaction over remittances and it's also secured than any other.

Bitcoin is also a good investment for people that are struggling with low income, all they need to do is find good amount of money to invest in Bitcoin, even if their monthly salary isn't good enough for them to start saving money, having Bitcoin is more than enough.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: apogio on November 14, 2023, 04:46:19 PM
My country is certainly low-income, and it's a very crypto-friendly country. We have tons of exchanges, major foundations accept donations in Bitcoin and a few altcoins, and there's a general roadmap to gradually adopt legislation to become a good place for crypto businesses, as well as enable usage of Bitcoin as money.
Of course, many people still use international bank transfers, but Bitcoin is quite well-known. International fees really depend on a country, and sometimes there are no fees at all, but the exchange rate isn't great, and you often can't send fiat without exchanging it.

Sounds like a good choice for a country to have open mind.

You don't have to see Bitcoin like this, you have to see it as a global option of Becoming a very millionaire if you make the investment at these times

Ok, but I see Bitcoin as a new payments standard and not as an investment. Of course I appreciate the market going up, but I hope to see Bitcoin becoming a huge payments network.



Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Assface16678 on November 14, 2023, 10:45:40 PM
Without a dought yes, bitcoin transfer is more efficient than using remittance now a days, even not bitcoin, online transfer is a trend now why? Because its much faster and safe also lost fees, but why many people still use remittance is because they lack knowledge or hesitant about online transfer, and as we know not all people are knowledgeable about bitcoin or crypto currency so they don't know the advantage of using crypto currency transfer and of course not in all occasions that cryptocurrency transfer is applicable. So in short its more advantageous to use online transfer now a days and there a lot of platform for that, in every country they have a popular online transfer, and for use crypto currency transfer is more efficient, but in some occasions only. Still we can't force others to transition and use online transferring like what they used, because it hard to know things that is new to them.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: tabas on November 14, 2023, 10:56:46 PM
Yes, Bitcoin has been one of the greatest solution to the high cost of remittance fees. But obviously when the network is full and clogged, the fees also increases. This time, the highest was likely $8-$10 IIRC. But still compared it to the usual transaction fees we do in remittance centers, they're still kind of low. Anyway, the fees will drop down eventually when the network is empty again and there are lesser to no more demand for the ordinals. And if we're going to talk about if Bitcoin has been useful to us, in general, it definitely is and without a doubt that it has helped our lives more than the typical asset that we've got personally.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: lombok on November 15, 2023, 12:26:02 AM
Bitcoin is indeed suitable for cross-border payment designs. Apart from low transaction fees, Bitcoin is also fast in just minutes.

I've been using Bitcoin since 2013 to send money across countries, and I get paid in Bitcoin too because the company I work for is in Brazil while I'm in Indonesia. If you use some kind of wire/western union, bank, PayPal, it will cost a lot of transaction fees and can take days, of course this is not effective. Since there is Bitcoin or crypto, things like cross-border payments are very helpful, Bitcoin/crypto is the solution.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: BlackBoss_ on November 15, 2023, 12:36:44 AM
Bitcoin is indeed suitable for cross-border payment designs.
Many ways to do cross-border payments, transactions and it's not only Bitcoin can do this. Bitcoin is unique because of more important things: decentralized, censorship resistance that you can not find in other methods like banks, visa, altcoin blockchains, CBDCs.

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Apart from low transaction fees, Bitcoin is also fast in just minutes.
Bitcoin does not provide cheapest transaction fee or fastest confirmation time or average block time. It provides more important thing for users, its blockchain is irreversible because of very high and strong hash rate, decentralized. It's impossible to attack Bitcoin network and cost is bigger than benefit from attack.

How many Bitcoin confirmations is enough? (https://blog.lopp.net/how-many-bitcoin-confirmations-is-enough/)
https://howmanyconfs.com/


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: rodskee on November 15, 2023, 01:57:58 AM
I am curious to know if (and how much) Bitcoin is adopted in low- and middle-income countries.

I am reading the Bitcoin Magazine (Issue 24 - The El Salvador Issue) (https://store.bitcoinmagazine.com/products/el-salvador-issue).

Here are some stats, according to the magazine:

  • The global average cost of sending $200 remained high at 6.5% - or $13, in 2020.
  • In Sub-Saharan Africa, the average cost of sending $200 was 8.2% in 2020.
  • Sending money from Japan to Brazil cost 11.5% in remittance costs in 2020
  • 1 out of 9 people on the planet depend on remittances sent by migrant workers to support their families.

According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped? Do you use it to avoid all those remittance costs?
That should be a good stats and yes this could be a big help for remittance sending family ,
 but we must also consider that there is not only bitcoin that has been used now mate, others prefer using altcoins
as it has lower fees and faster transacting , specially times like this now that the congestion taking place , fees
are going higher and slower .but indeed that Bitcoin is a big help in middle and lower income countries .


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Odohu on November 15, 2023, 04:28:33 AM
Bitcoin is indeed suitable for cross-border payment designs. Apart from low transaction fees, Bitcoin is also fast in just minutes.

I've been using Bitcoin since 2013 to send money across countries, and I get paid in Bitcoin too because the company I work for is in Brazil while I'm in Indonesia. If you use some kind of wire/western union, bank, PayPal, it will cost a lot of transaction fees and can take days, of course this is not effective. Since there is Bitcoin or crypto, things like cross-border payments are very helpful, Bitcoin/crypto is the solution.
I'm really happy to know that a cooperate organisation will accept to pay workers in Bitcoin even though it is a remote job. This is in-line with the reason for the creation of Bitcoin itself. For a country like mine where there is no tax on Bitcoin, it will be a major deal for you because you will be taking your complete money home without paying tax, I know it might not sound nice to some patriots, but then, anything that can add more money to our pocket is a plus to us provided it does not contravene the law.

Bitcoin has actually made life easy by offering a whole new dimension to cross borders payment


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: lombok on November 15, 2023, 06:18:10 AM
Bitcoin is indeed suitable for cross-border payment designs. Apart from low transaction fees, Bitcoin is also fast in just minutes.

I've been using Bitcoin since 2013 to send money across countries, and I get paid in Bitcoin too because the company I work for is in Brazil while I'm in Indonesia. If you use some kind of wire/western union, bank, PayPal, it will cost a lot of transaction fees and can take days, of course this is not effective. Since there is Bitcoin or crypto, things like cross-border payments are very helpful, Bitcoin/crypto is the solution.
I'm really happy to know that a cooperate organisation will accept to pay workers in Bitcoin even though it is a remote job. This is in-line with the reason for the creation of Bitcoin itself. For a country like mine where there is no tax on Bitcoin, it will be a major deal for you because you will be taking your complete money home without paying tax, I know it might not sound nice to some patriots, but then, anything that can add more money to our pocket is a plus to us provided it does not contravene the law.

Bitcoin has actually made life easy by offering a whole new dimension to cross borders payment

So this is the main point, we are free from taxes 😅. In those years, there were no regulations regarding cryptocurrency tax. In fact, it was only recently that everything related to crypto in my country was taxed. Until now, 70 percent of my income is paid in Bitcoin. Only 30 percent of my income is paid in fiat currency. This is progress for Bitcoin, apart from being a safe haven asset, Bitcoin has the potential to be a means of paying salaries or any kind of payment.

Apart from that, countries in the world are increasingly accepting Bitcoin and even legalizing it, setting tax regulations and some are openly developing Bitcoin/Cryptocurrency based projects.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Jawhead999 on November 15, 2023, 06:54:25 AM
Of course Bitcoin is cheaper than banks when it comes to cross border transactions, but not all people think Bitcoin is safe.

If we only talk about fees and costs, I'd say it's better to use stablecoins that run in centralized chains e.g. BSC. The cost to send for using BSC is only $0.05, other chains might be cheaper. After that it's their choice to convert their money to fiat, hold it or any coins they trust.

The drawback there might be a drama of freeze funds and privacy concern.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: bitterguy28 on November 15, 2023, 07:18:59 AM
Here are some stats, according to the magazine:

  • The global average cost of sending $200 remained high at 6.5% - or $13, in 2020.
  • In Sub-Saharan Africa, the average cost of sending $200 was 8.2% in 2020.
  • Sending money from Japan to Brazil cost 11.5% in remittance costs in 2020
  • 1 out of 9 people on the planet depend on remittances sent by migrant workers to support their families.

According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped? Do you use it to avoid all those remittance costs?
I am also  sending Money overseas and yes I was Using bitcoin now though sometimes having troubles with High fees so we need to wait some time before sending or also using some altcoin in those case .
but what you've said is correct mate because there are so much discount I am getting in those transactions this helps me minimize my expenses as I really need those amount to save for my Holdings and also for my family.

I don't know how much the fee in sending fiat now because have not been doing since 4 years ago , but the last that i remember is I am paying 10% each time I send so since then I leave the fiat sending .

Of course Bitcoin is cheaper than banks when it comes to cross border transactions, but not all people think Bitcoin is safe.


and also the availability because it is not happening around the world, there are other countries that banned Bitcoin so there is no reason for us to use this as transacting materials.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Gallar on November 15, 2023, 07:32:42 AM
Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
I think that's how it is. Because bitcoin does have a very good system which is very suitable for countries with lower middle income. Because as we know, Bitcoin has a decentralized system, and also low sending costs. So it is natural that Bitcoin is widely used or adopted by low and middle income countries. Because as the OP explained, transaction costs between countries, if you use a bank, tend to be quite expensive. Therefore, bitcoin emerged as an alternative way to send money at relatively low costs.

Apart from that, bitcoin also provides a very promising investment opportunity and can also be done with not too large capital. For this reason, people in countries with low incomes will definitely be very enthusiastic about Bitcoin. Because they can invest, but they can use the costs they can afford. Maybe because of this, Bitcoin is widely popular or adopted in countries with low/middle incomes.

~Snip
According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped? Do you use it to avoid all those remittance costs?
For me personally, bitcoin is very helpful. Because as I said above, Bitcoin provides a very promising investment tool and it could be said that it does not look at economic class. Because if you look at other investment assets, it is clear that you are required to have very large capital. So of course those who can reach it are people who have very high incomes. Therefore, bitcoin is very helpful for me personally.

And cheap shipping costs too, are a special feature for bitcoin. Therefore, bitcoin is indeed an asset with a complete package.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Silberman on November 15, 2023, 07:43:32 AM
I am curious to know if (and how much) Bitcoin is adopted in low- and middle-income countries.

I am reading the Bitcoin Magazine (Issue 24 - The El Salvador Issue) (https://store.bitcoinmagazine.com/products/el-salvador-issue).

Here are some stats, according to the magazine:

  • The global average cost of sending $200 remained high at 6.5% - or $13, in 2020.
  • In Sub-Saharan Africa, the average cost of sending $200 was 8.2% in 2020.
  • Sending money from Japan to Brazil cost 11.5% in remittance costs in 2020
  • 1 out of 9 people on the planet depend on remittances sent by migrant workers to support their families.

According to these, do you feel like Bitcoin has helped? Do you use it to avoid all those remittance costs?
That should be a good stats and yes this could be a big help for remittance sending family ,
 but we must also consider that there is not only bitcoin that has been used now mate, others prefer using altcoins
as it has lower fees and faster transacting , specially times like this now that the congestion taking place , fees
are going higher and slower .but indeed that Bitcoin is a big help in middle and lower income countries .
When we think of remittances we should not only think on the cost of sending a transaction, but also on the costs of converting fiat to bitcoin and then doing the opposite, as this increases the costs those sending that money have to pay, since there are still not many places where you can use your bitcoin directly to buy what you want or ways to earn bitcoin directly, however in countries where the local currency is trash I could see bitcoin being used for this purpose since it would be better to receive bitcoin than such currency.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: kotajikikox on November 15, 2023, 07:56:29 AM
When we think of remittances we should not only think on the cost of sending a transaction, but also on the costs of converting fiat to bitcoin and then doing the opposite, as this increases the costs those sending that money have to pay, since there are still not many places where you can use your bitcoin directly to buy what you want or ways to earn bitcoin directly, however in countries where the local currency is trash I could see bitcoin being used for this purpose since it would be better to receive bitcoin than such currency.
don't keep looking for conversion fees because not all trades need to convert to fiat because others are also using their received bitcoin to pay online transactions or to remain holding.
some are also converting to other altcoins to use for gambling or what they wanted to to, but if you are sending bitcoin overseas and they need to convert to fiat then better to send fiat instead with that 6-8% sending fees.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Blitzboy on November 15, 2023, 02:15:16 PM
Bitcoin's potential to lower remittance costs, especially in low and middle income nations, is quite relevant. The number shows that traditional remittances are expensive. Now is the time for Bitcoin to shine. Bitcoin revolutionizes remittances with its minimal transaction fees and borderlessness. Bitcoin allows continent-wide money transfers with low fees! Plus, it's faster than traditional banking. Efficiency, accessibility, and cost savings are all important.

Unpredictability and the need to connect to the internet are, of course, problems. But when you compare these to the high fees and slow speed of old ways of sending money, Bitcoin starts to look like a superhero in the world of money transfers.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: apogio on November 15, 2023, 06:57:49 PM
but not all people think Bitcoin is safe.

Safe as in it can be easily lost / forgotten / compromised, or safe as in "not very volatile" ?

Bitcoin's potential to lower remittance costs, especially in low and middle income nations, is quite relevant. The number shows that traditional remittances are expensive. Now is the time for Bitcoin to shine.

The only issue I see with this is that remittance costs are decided and applied by companies & governments, so they can easily be manipulated if they see that they lose from Bitcoin in market share.

For me personally, bitcoin is very helpful. Because as I said above, Bitcoin provides a very promising investment tool and it could be said that it does not look at economic class.
And cheap shipping costs too, are a special feature for bitcoin. Therefore, bitcoin is indeed an asset with a complete package.

I am glad to hear that. I don't know if Bitcoin is an asset with a complete package. What I do know, is that it's not governed by anyone. And this must be very well appreciated. There are flaws in Bitcoin, but personally I believe it is the best technological invention I have ever witnessed, alongside the Internet.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin and option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: un_rank on November 15, 2023, 07:41:06 PM
Absolutely, but people in countries where salaries are higher tend to:
1. use banks a lot.
2. don't really care about the remittance cost because it doesn't look so scary.
...
1. I think usage of banks is not directly or strongly correlated to the economic status. Not considering the unbanked I will assume both high, low and middle income countries use banks to the same extent.

2. I can flip that to show that those is low/middle income countries do not engage in international transactions often and if they do. they find themselves on the receiving end of the transaction where they do not worry about the remittance cost.

- Jay -


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: tjtonmoy on November 15, 2023, 07:44:04 PM
Doing the paperwork, waiting for approvals, showing proof of your income, exposing everything that you own, and then waiting for the transaction to be done. If everything is all right then the transaction will go through and if there's anything wrong, could be a tiny bit of wrong information or mistake can lead to so many problems.

And there are still fees and costs that need to be dealt with. I don't know how much other countries cost but where I live, it is very high. If you want to avoid everything and keep it simple, The Savior Bitcoin is here. No middleman involved, no personal data exposed, no hassle and fast transaction with less fee. So I think Bitcoin will be the best choice for cross border transaction for low and middle income countries.


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: HideYourKeys on November 15, 2023, 07:54:24 PM
My bet is that most of the adoption might be driven by such countries, in fact, they can use other layers such as lightning or liquid


Title: Re: Is Bitcoin an option for low- and middle-income countries [Fees & Costs]
Post by: Jawhead999 on November 16, 2023, 04:43:15 AM
Safe as in it can be easily lost / forgotten / compromised, or safe as in "not very volatile" ?
Both of them.

Most of low and middle income countries have low literacy, so when they see the title "Bitcoin can be hacked", "Bitcoin is scam", "Someone lost $$$ in Bitcoin", "Bitcoin drop 10% in a day" etc, they will automatically believe it without read the whole article.

Even though they're familiar with digital fiat or mobile banking where their money are in digital form, they still don't trust Bitcoin because it's not officially regulated, not promoted and not widely accepted in their country.