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Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: pakhitheboss on December 20, 2023, 01:28:36 PM



Title: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: pakhitheboss on December 20, 2023, 01:28:36 PM
Consider the situation we were in 2021 and then considering the present situation we are in, what do you think is the problem? Most of us would say nothing! I would say it is the transaction fees, won't you agree on this part.

The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017. Then came a time when institutional investors started buyin Bitcoin and we saw a new ATH. Everything was looking good until these guys, ORDI started utilizing the infrastructure for their own shit agenda.

What has happened now? High transaction fee, congested Bitcoin blockchain and continuous discussion about Ordinals. Cursing the miners and what not!

Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developer plan for the future? Is this infestation being done by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Charles-Tim on December 20, 2023, 01:36:50 PM
The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017. Then came a time when institutional investors started buyin Bitcoin and we saw a new ATH. Everything was looking good until these guys, ORDI started utilizing the infrastructure for their own shit agenda.
It is worth knowing that Ordinals started with NFTs before BRC20. ORDI is just one of the BRC20 tokens but there are many of them. There are many to come is be what people are predicting. So let us expect more congestion if nothing is done.

Not only ORDI that caused the recent congestion, SATS is also part of it and other BRC20 tokens.

With what I am thinking, Ordinals will stay. Bitcoin developers need to look for means to make the transaction fee cheap as it was before. BRC20 will likely grow and the onchain transaction will increase if nothing is done.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Franctoshi on December 20, 2023, 01:58:50 PM
The fees are becoming so worrisome and not making sense anymore with this crazy fees, as it is gradually shifting from what it used to be before, the cheap transactions fees we used to have back days, and I wonder what would be the transaction fees and the kind of network congestion we would experience going further as we haven't even hit the main bull market where we would likely have Bitcoin trading around $100k+ — $250k+ price per Bitcoin. This issue needs to be fixed with urgent attention, else the average Joe wouldn't be able to get their hands on Bitcoin because of its high fees when they think about how much they would spend on fees to get a small amount of BTC and seem it's where we are heading to and if care is not taken.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: DooMAD on December 20, 2023, 02:07:04 PM
Some would argue the concept was censorship resistant transactions and permissionless freedom.  Low fees were just the icing on the cake.  Let's try to keep things in perspective.

The closest risk to the concept failing is the angry mob with their pitchforks and torches advocating banning transactions.


//EDIT:

                 
Public Notice:
I have user franky1 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=65837) on ignore and won't be responding directly to whatever nonsense he's spouting.  His ideas regarding Bitcoin are a direct threat to freedom.  I've never seen someone so deep in the totalitarian closet.  I'd strongly advise against engaging with this user, unless you want him trying to dictate to you what you can or can't code.


                 


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: kryptqnick on December 20, 2023, 02:13:12 PM
Transaction fees are occasionally high, but it's not a trend of them getting higher over time. It's just that, at some periods, some events trigger increased activity, and those periods are bad for casual Bitcoin users just wanting to make a small transaction. 2022 was a year of very reasonable fees, and the same goes for parts of 2023.
I don't think Bitcoin's "whole concept" is of it being the cheapest system. To me, it's more about having a currency that's truly independent of the governments and from corporations; it's also about being able to send funds online without intermediaries.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: m2017 on December 20, 2023, 02:22:00 PM
Consider the situation we were in 2021 and then considering the present situation we are in, what do you think is the problem? Most of us would say nothing! I would say it is the transaction fees, won't you agree on this part.
And you also shout that bitcoin will cost $100k, 1000k. Imagine how high the transaction fees will become at that moment.

The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017. Then came a time when institutional investors started buyin Bitcoin and we saw a new ATH. Everything was looking good until these guys, ORDI started utilizing the infrastructure for their own shit agenda.
Indeed, bitcoin has moved away from the original concept and the community now uses bitcoin more as an investment and speculative tool than as a means for online payments. This is the reality.

What has happened now? High transaction fee, congested Bitcoin blockchain and continuous discussion about Ordinals. Cursing the miners and what not!
Wow, take it easy. Just don't panic. :)

Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developer plan for the future? Is this infestation being done by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.
Well, we'll still be left with something. :) I am sure that the developers, even without our panicked cries, are well aware of the scale of the problem and are working on it. They work, right? :) What does the government have to do with it? Which one? World government? This smells like some kind of conspiracy theory and reptilians.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: hd49728 on December 20, 2023, 02:25:28 PM
What has happened now? High transaction fee, congested Bitcoin blockchain and continuous discussion about Ordinals. Cursing the miners and what not!
It is bad enough to cry but problems appear to be fixed and I am sure Bitcoin developers can do it. Do you think without Ordinals, Bitcoin blockchain and the next bull run will be lack of interesting recipe.

Problems from Ordinals on Bitcoin mempools should not be underestimated because they are serious enough but do you think that what will happen if Bitcoin developers and community and figure out solutions and reach to a consensus to resolve it?

Moon we go.

Bitcoin miners and Ordinals guys will not like it but Bitcoin community are decentralized and I think we will see power of decentralization.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Churchillvv on December 20, 2023, 02:45:54 PM
The concept of Bitcoin from my subjectivity is transacting directly with each other without intermediary and a currency without central controls so cheap transaction fees should have been another agenda but it is not included, but it's carried along the way, now if Bitcoin was to create freedom for both the status quo rich and status quo poor, with the high transaction fee it doesn't create a scenario for the status quo poor people to be free it's now a currency for only status quo rich people.

I haven't obviously seen any possibility to reduce the congested blockchain but only probabilities that are not up to 70% surety for working out.
I'm not sure of this thoughts in my head that it might also be that high transaction fees are initiations from the high profile personals or the so called government(s) inorder to maintain the social strata, because Bitcoin has powered social mobility which might force some of them to drop from their statuses.

My interest is how do we as a community influence the transaction fees to reduce? knowing too well that nothing has been done since the complains of high tx fees.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Jawhead999 on December 20, 2023, 02:47:17 PM
The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017. Then came a time when institutional investors started buyin Bitcoin and we saw a new ATH. Everything was looking good until these guys, ORDI started utilizing the infrastructure for their own shit agenda.
I'm curious where did you read "the whole concept of Bitcoin is cheapest payment"? I didn't find it through the whitepaper.

I guess this is what we need to expect if most of Bitcoin is already mined and mining no longer profitable, I don't think the miners are fine to accept loses just to make people can able to proceed their transactions.

Sooner or later we will be forced to use L2.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: ImThour on December 20, 2023, 02:49:38 PM
I won't lie. I am a big Bitcoin believer and have been since 2020, but this fee problem is very worrying. If you look at the infographics being shared by other shitcoins that does the same blockchain fancy stuff and for that, you pay less than 10 cent fee for one transaction. And for Bitcoin, it's currently above $20 and the time it takes is so much for an ordinary transaction.

Imagine you are buying something and your Bitcoin transaction is taking 30 minutes to confirm, you can't wait for this much time when you have payment methods which takes less than a second nowadays. Sad to see this.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: franky1 on December 20, 2023, 02:55:35 PM
Some would argue the concept was censorship resistant transactions and permissionless freedom.  Low fees were just the icing on the cake.  Let's try to keep things in perspective.

The closest risk to the concept failing is the angry mob with their pitchforks and torches advocating banning transactions.

bitcoin was about immutability that things cannot be edited once confirmed..
and the whole idea of private keys is that no one can steal funds because funds can only move with the permission of the key holder

also consensus is literally the meaning of mass consent

transactions are not guaranteed to be added to a block. many transactions get rejected..
you wanting the junk to continue is your own foolish nonsense of wanting bitcoin to become annoying and expenive to transact so you can promote other networks to idiots

so stop with your nonsense. learn bitcoin and stop trying to want bitcoin to conform to the corporate plans of wallstreet


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Zaguru12 on December 20, 2023, 03:01:29 PM
Is this infestation being done by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.

I don’t think they will be the ones onto this, they wouldn’t want to waste so much amount of money to infect the blockchain, they would rather switch focus to getting larger pools to censor transactions just like we have seen F2pool and Mara pool onto, if they want to attack the network. The issue of inscriptions are just bunch of individuals that found a way to milk gullible people from their money since they saw how well the NFTs went.

Not only ORDI that caused the recent congestion, SATS is also part of it and other BRC20 tokens.

They are currently more than 30 of them with new ones been lunched also, the likes of CSAS and 1000SATS getting the new attention. OP can easily check on them on coinmarketcap at the categories page

I wonder what would be the transaction fees and the kind of network congestion we would experience going further as we haven't even hit the main bull market where we would likely have Bitcoin trading around $100k+ — $250k+ price per Bitcoin.

The thing self is, it is not the price of bitcoin that actually causes the high transaction fee but rather the mempool congestion that does that. We have had bitcoin transactions fees at 1-5sats/vbyte when the price was around $30k-$40k last year and a fee of around 20sats/vbyte when the ATH then was not upto $40k


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: SamReomo on December 20, 2023, 03:16:59 PM
What has happened now? High transaction fee, congested Bitcoin blockchain and continuous discussion about Ordinals. Cursing the miners and what not!
The Bitcoin network is already congested a lot and it will continue to survive with that congestion. The problem with those high fee is that the normal payments with Bitcoin aren't feasible right now and that made many users to switch to alternative blockchains. I would say that the ordinals are the worst type of attack on Bitcoin network and unfortunately the developers can't do anything to stop the growth of those ordinals. So many new BRC-20 tokens are getting ready to be listed on exchanges and if they somehow succeed to get listed on exchanges then the network will get more congested day after day.

The exchanges and other platforms are promoting those ordinals to earn trading fees and extra and they don't care much about Bitcoin's network. The only possible solution to combat the ordinals issue is to go with LN but no body talks about that anymore and it's usage isn't that high. That's why the ones who used Bitcoin as p2p payment solution are switching to altcoins and if it continues like that then very few people would use Bitcoin as p2p payment system and most people will consider it as an asset only.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Charles-Tim on December 20, 2023, 03:23:32 PM
Transaction fees are occasionally high, but it's not a trend of them getting higher over time. It's just that, at some periods, some events trigger increased activity, and those periods are bad for casual Bitcoin users just wanting to make a small transaction. 2022 was a year of very reasonable fees, and the same goes for parts of 2023.
But this time is different. Although, it is possible that bitcoin and Ordinals transactions may reduce sometimes and the fee can become low, but different from 2022 and the past when there was nothing like Ordinals.

I don't think Bitcoin's "whole concept" is of it being the cheapest system. To me, it's more about having a currency that's truly independent of the governments and from corporations; it's also about being able to send funds online without intermediaries.
It would have been better if the fee is cheap than how it is now.

transactions are not guaranteed to be added to a block. many transactions get rejected..
you wanting the junk to continue is your own foolish nonsense of wanting bitcoin to become annoying and expenive to transact so you can promote other networks to idiots
Never mind me that I quoted this. Some people called the transactions as spam on this forum, but you can see how clear that BRC20 topics reported are not moved to altcoin boards but stayed in bitcoin discussion. Also that there is nothing developers are doing to make this type of transaction not to be on bitcoin blockchain. I am starting to think that this spam are now considered relevant and seen as bitcoin tokens.

They are currently more than 30 of them with new ones been lunched also, the likes of CSAS and 1000SATS getting the new attention. OP can easily check on them on coinmarketcap at the categories page
The real name is SATS. But some people and exchanges refers to it as 1000SATS which is still SATS in different denomination. That is SATS price multiply by 1000.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: bittraffic on December 20, 2023, 03:24:10 PM
What do the developer plan for the future? Is this infestation being done by the government?

Now that you haave mentioned it, it's somehow going to make sense if Blackrock is up to take over the crypto market.  If those Ordinals are not enough to discourage people from using BTC, imagine if they add another BRC20. But this will again fall to a conspiracy theory. It's always a conspiracy theory even after it happens.

I thought there would be a fork that would happen because of this since there are already devs expressing their dismay.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Don Pedro Dinero on December 20, 2023, 03:26:31 PM
I'm curious where did you read "the whole concept of Bitcoin is cheapest payment"? I didn't find it through the whitepaper.

I don't know where the OP got it either. Besides, the initial concept can change and the creation can still be a success, as it seems to happen for saving and transferring from certain amounts. For me it is more important what DooMAD says:

Some would argue the concept was censorship resistant transactions and permissionless freedom.

It is a freedom that today is in danger (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5475157.0).


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Aanuoluwatofunmi on December 20, 2023, 03:30:07 PM
What has happened now? High transaction fee, congested Bitcoin blockchain and continuous discussion about Ordinals. Cursing the miners and what not!

If you noticed well the way things have been going on with the transaction fee these days, it will drop and after some time increases, the high fee is actually a benefit on the miners, they would have experienced low income for the past before this kind of opportunity comes in for them to have higher preference on transaction fees, it's not expected of us to say bitcoin network is failing yet since we have everything working as the protocols states.

Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developer plan for the future?

I can still say it boldly that even if there's nothing done about this ordinals challenge, it is still a millions times better than the local traditional fiat transaction fee we have been paying over years, but i will say that a little more patience is needed to see what may comes in after this, almost everybody is being affected in this.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Hamza2424 on December 20, 2023, 03:39:59 PM
I dont give a shit to these ORDI and relevant shit projects, TBH on the Bitcoin network i dont make too often transection so the network fees never bother me much, But form the view of the community member and considering the mission of Btcoin in count as well this is alarming. What can be a possible solution for the Bitcoin L2? I dont know Removing ordinals? some of the trend followers may not support it or even may be some of the people with the perspective of freedom on the network will oppose .

This topic is already discussed many times, I even cant count but even after scanning many of the pages on those topics I've never found a perfect solution-based discussion, everyone just gives the openion as i do which put me in considartion that there's not possible solution for this casue.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Lucius on December 20, 2023, 03:50:07 PM
I won't lie. I am a big Bitcoin believer and have been since 2020, but this fee problem is very worrying. If you look at the infographics being shared by other shitcoins that does the same blockchain fancy stuff and for that, you pay less than 10 cent fee for one transaction. And for Bitcoin, it's currently above $20 and the time it takes is so much for an ordinary transaction.

A lot of people live in the delusion that the security of Bitcoin on-chain transactions is something that can be compared to the security of transactions of most altcoins. When you get 1 confirmation with BTC, it's a pretty safe thing - how many confirmations do you need to be safe with some of the most popular altcoins?

As far as I can see, the price of the priority transaction fee is around $12 and it has been like that for the past few hours, but I will just say that as far as ordinals and similar nonsense are concerned, we couldn't expect anything better from ordinary idiots who just want to make a lot of money even if with that they do certain damage to everyone who are using BTC for transaction on a daily basis.



~snip~
Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developer plan for the future? Is this infestation being done by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.


You are too pessimistic considering that in the past there were also big challenges when it comes to spamming the blockchain and when the fees were more than twice as high as the highest recently. The Bitcoin community, to which the people from this forum and everyone else belong, can't do anything about it, and if you follow what prominent members of this community write, then you probably noticed that they mostly do not support any form of censorship that would go in the direction of banning what is currently happening.

We don't have many options, there is LN as an alternative, or maybe some altcoin until the situation stabilizes - although in the long term we all have to know that in less than 10 years 99% of BTC will be mined, and that even before that, miners will increasingly depend on fees that will no longer be as cheap as we are used to.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Die_empty on December 20, 2023, 03:58:02 PM
Consider the situation we were in 2021 and then considering the present situation we are in, what do you think is the problem? Most of us would say nothing! I would say it is the transaction fees, won't you agree on this part.
High transaction fee is indeed a problem in the Bitcoin ecosystem and it has been seen as a strong attack on the system. Just recently the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), a U.S. government agency that manages cybersecurity risks labeled Bitcoin Ordinals’ Inscriptions a Code Exploit. Now Bitcoin Ordinal Inscriptions has been added to the National Vulnerability Database of the United States.
https://unchainedcrypto.com/us-government-labels-bitcoin-ordinals-inscriptions-a-code-exploit/

Quote
What has happened now? High transaction fee, congested Bitcoin blockchain and continuous discussion about Ordinals. Cursing the miners and what not!
There is no need to curse these miners because everybody is after the money. Everybody is in the Bitcoin ecosystem to make more money and miners are taking advantage of these opportunities. It was reported that revenue for all miners on the blockchain has already risen by around 60% to $2.5 billion in the fourth quarter of this year. Big Bitcoin mining firms like Marathon Digital Holdings Inc. and Riot Platforms Inc. have made so much profit this season.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-19/bitcoin-nft-ordinals-craze-turns-into-revenue-bonanza-for-miners-mara-riot

Quote
Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developer plan for the future? Is this infestation being done by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.
I think inscriptions is here to stay, so we have to learn to live with it.  Getting a consensus rule change will be difficult but an implementation of the mining policy to filter inscriptions so that they will not get into the blocks might be viable. Inscriptions is not just a problem of the bitcoin network but it is spreading gradually to  Ethereum, Solana, Near, Polygon, Celo and Fantom.
https://www.theblock.co/post/266298/bitcoin-dev-luke-dashjr-calls-inscriptions-spam-community-members-push-back


I don't think Bitcoin's "whole concept" is of it being the cheapest system. To me, it's more about having a currency that's truly independent of the governments and from corporations; it's also about being able to send funds online without intermediaries.
The cheap transaction fee was a good quality of Bitcoin. It was one of my strongest advantages when I introduced people to Bitcoin. I know several businesses in my area that use Bitcoin for international payments because of the cheap transaction fees. Some people don't care about privacy or decentralisation, all they want is cheap transaction fees.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: pooya87 on December 20, 2023, 04:00:05 PM
Consider the situation we were in 2021 and then considering the present situation we are in, what do you think is the problem? Most of us would say nothing! I would say it is the transaction fees, won't you agree on this part.
There is definitely a problem but it is not the fees. The problem is developers that have refused to provide the option in full node implementations such as bitcoin core for users to reject these spam transactions that are exploiting the protocol.

Quote
The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017.
The "concept" was never about being cheapest payment system. The main thing was to be a decentralized censorship resistant payment system that is secure (immutable blockchain).
We strive to keep the capacity in a level that prevents prolonged congestion. We can't do anything about spam attacks except patching exploits and rely on the fee market to make the attack expensive for the attackers.

Quote
Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developer plan for the future? Is this infestation being done by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.
It's not the time to get into who's behind the attack, it's time to find a solution to remove this exploit in the protocol and prevent the spam. For the time being, I'd say the community should start letting the dev teams know what they demand of them. We'll discuss other options if they continue refusing to fix the exploit or at least give users the option to not-relay these spam transactions.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: YUriy1991 on December 20, 2023, 04:12:11 PM
Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developers plan for the future? Is this infestation being carried out by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.

All about the anonymity, BTC needing to be purchased to get and increase the price, Maybe yes and the government is still a threat to Bitcoin.

This issue needs to be fixed with urgent attention, else the average Joe wouldn't be able to get their hands on Bitcoin because of its high fees when they think about how much they would spend on fees to get a small amount of BTC and seem it's where we are heading to and if care is not taken.

Yes. In this range it tends to be unstable. Fees will always vary where fees are high and always go down when there is a traffic jam where many people complain about withdrawals and If this doesn't do it quickly, it will be a different story. I think this also leads to what you said where miners want to expand block sizes, so they can make more money.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: btc78 on December 20, 2023, 04:16:39 PM

The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017.

first of all to say that bitcoin’s whole concept is being the cheapest payment system may not be the most accurate bitcoin was made purposefully to be used as digital payment but without any third party

now getting that away it is truly worrisome that there seems to be no way around these high fees if bitcoin was used as intended like being used in daily transactions then it will be more congested it seems like the only way right now is to either pay high or do your transactions in times where the blockchain is not busy hopefully developers can soon implement a system where it will allow for faster transactions


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Games.Bitcoin on December 20, 2023, 04:40:35 PM
Bitcoin is hampered by factors such as environmental impact and regulatory uncertainty, the original vision of a currency outside the control of centralized financial institutions. The original idea of Bitcoin was to introduce a decentralized digital currency account. It is facing increasing scrutiny and challenges to its effectiveness which raises concerns among the public. Doubts have been raised about Bitcoin's effectiveness as a store of value, mainly due to extreme volatility in its price. But addressing these shortcomings and stressing the need for Bitcoin through alternative means will ensure its use as a widely accepted digital currency.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Rockstarguy on December 20, 2023, 05:04:06 PM
The high fee of bitcoin transaction needs to be look into, it is dissapointing to be facing a challenge like this which has been hindrance for investors to carry out transactions. This can be a reason for new investors not to have interest to invest in bitcoin because of how the fee  is getting terrible.  I know their are things that could be cause of this challenge,  I think it needs to be look in to. It will be too if this continues like this for a while, it can be an excuse to people to give it is the reason why they could not invest in bitcoin for the bull market.

In the past we have had similar challenge like this but in different degree,  I know this is something that can be resolved for everything to come back Normal.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: pakhitheboss on December 20, 2023, 05:04:35 PM
The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017. Then came a time when institutional investors started buyin Bitcoin and we saw a new ATH. Everything was looking good until these guys, ORDI started utilizing the infrastructure for their own shit agenda.
I'm curious where did you read "the whole concept of Bitcoin is cheapest payment"? I didn't find it through the whitepaper.
I am assuming that you have read the whitepaper! Then answer my simple question, why and what was the reason Bitcoin was created? Please quote me the page number from the whitepaper, if you reply to my question. Otherwise you would become another troll replying for the sake of quota.

It was never about cheap fee, it was about fees that were below those that the government charged as at that time Bitcoin was the only payment entity that could get funds from one country to other in a few hours in the cheapest of fee.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Kakmakr on December 20, 2023, 05:16:40 PM
This has nothing to do with governments, it has all to do with "GREED"!

The developers of this technology (Ordinals) to the people invested in this to the miners mining this.... all are motivated by greed. The thing is this, it is a NORMAL part of how this should evolve, we should allow for technologies to use the Blockchain and developers should find solutions to solve the congested Blockchain. 

There should be FREEDOM to use the technology and the experiment should adapt with it.... because all other tokens would face the same challenges and they should also adapt to it.  :P


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: moneystery on December 20, 2023, 05:28:59 PM
the problem of the network being constantly congested seems to be something that bitcoin devs need to solve as soon as possible, considering that the adoption of bitcoin is increasing, and once the sec accepts the bitcoin ETF it will bring more and more retail investors into the ecosystem and that could make the network even more congested.

because just imagine if the bitcoin developers didn't solve this problem, at one time people would spend more money just for 1 transaction worth a few dollars, and this is quite funny considering that bitcoin offers a revolutionary payment concept but in terms of a network that is just congested they reluctant to solve the problem.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: crwth on December 20, 2023, 05:40:12 PM
Isn't it that the whole concept of Bitcoin is decentralization Or giving the capacity to the unbanked to banked type of thing, right? It has done its job very well and it has been continuing. It's just that the network is so congested that it makes the transactions skyrocket which makes it hard for the users to use it. It's definitely expensive now.

Do you guys think that Bitcoin can create that financial crisis for us? Like too many transaction fees to do anything and it cannot be saved from what it should have saved you from? (Since it was created with the financial crisis in mind)


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Mahanton on December 20, 2023, 05:53:08 PM
Consider the situation we were in 2021 and then considering the present situation we are in, what do you think is the problem? Most of us would say nothing! I would say it is the transaction fees, won't you agree on this part.

The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017. Then came a time when institutional investors started buyin Bitcoin and we saw a new ATH. Everything was looking good until these guys, ORDI started utilizing the infrastructure for their own shit agenda.

What has happened now? High transaction fee, congested Bitcoin blockchain and continuous discussion about Ordinals. Cursing the miners and what not!

Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developer plan for the future? Is this infestation being done by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.
Totally before Ordinals had been created, everything is really that smooth and having these network congestions doesnt really happen often on which it might happen but only once a in a bluemoon on which it is really that something considerable but now that it did really make these things becomes to often on which it is really just that a hassle. Fees are really just that becoming on standard on playing in between $8-38 as far as i had noticed which it do really remove the general or main essence of its existence to be sticking into that utility about p2p transactions. How we would really be able to do such thing if the fees were on the rooftop?

Did make out some search on what would be their plans and comments on this then i have seen on this one.

Bitcoin Dev Claims Ordinals and BRC-20 Only Possible Because of a ‘Vulnerability’

and said this  one too Dashjr confirmed this and said ordinals and BRC-20 would no longer exist.
Source: https://cryptopotato.com/bug-fix-expected-to-halt-btc-ordinals-and-brc-20-tokens-says-bitcoin-dev/

Hope they would be able to resolve this shit condition!


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: mirakal on December 20, 2023, 06:07:26 PM
Change is the only constant in this world. So it's not surprising to see bitcoin concept not the same anymore. However, I believe what you have mentioned are the changes in bitcoin that only last temporarily. Transaction fees are high because there are already seen increased network activity which leads the market to be more congested. So we just have to wait for the regular fees to come back and make huge transactions again.

However, in order for bitcoin to improved and become more developed, certain changes may apply. But those will be positive changes that everyone will agree, and not something like this that everyone gets more confused.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Z-tight on December 20, 2023, 06:10:39 PM
the problem of the network being constantly congested seems to be something that bitcoin devs need to solve as soon as possible,
Do you have any proposals for a solution, most of the proposals i have seen is pro censorship, and the network is censorship resistant, so it is against its 'concept' to implement solutions that are pro censorship. It is not as easy as saying developers should simply solve this, but how do they go about it, without setting a precendent of censorship in the network.
---
Did you read the op, or did you use any bot to make this post. You are well off-topic


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Marvelman on December 20, 2023, 06:24:42 PM
The Bitcoin is dealing with some headaches right now.  There's high fees to send payments, congestion on the blockchain, and people are arguing about how to make Bitcoin scalable.  Yeah, it's getting some Bitcoiners worried and pissed off.   

These issues Bitcoins running into are no joke, but there's ideas out there that could maybe help.  The community's gotta team up to fix this stuff and keep Bitcoin working smooth and  it can be useful tech still but only if the core problems get sorted.

Bitcoin shouldn't have to be the cheapest system ever, but right now the fees are just too dang high.  If you ask me, Bitcoin payments oughta cost about the same as using your credit card or bank account.  That seems fair to me.

Only when the price gets to that point will Bitcoin payments really make sense for most folks.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: kentrolla on December 20, 2023, 06:40:17 PM
100% aligned with this as I have same complaint as well because Bitcoin was not created as an investment medium but rather as an cheapest and faster way to make P2P transfers without involvement of third parties and I am taken aback looking at the way people are justify these charges stating these higher fees. These fees are unacceptable but some people are least bothered because they have been using Bitcoin as an investment medium wherein they hodl it in centralized exchanges as an investment and convert it to some other coins like USDT or other alts with lower transfer fees incase if they want to transfer. I think people will soon forget the concept why Bitcoin was created.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: taufik123 on December 20, 2023, 06:53:36 PM
Change is the only constant in this world. So it's not surprising to see bitcoin concept not the same anymore. However, I believe what you have mentioned are the changes in bitcoin that only last temporarily. Transaction fees are high because there are already seen increased network activity which leads the market to be more congested. So we just have to wait for the regular fees to come back and make huge transactions again.
This increase in network activity makes anyone have to wait long enough to see a transaction complete because the fee to see a fast transaction is very expensive compared to the assets to be sent.
This is all due to the ordinal BRC20 network, which has a very large transaction rate.
I don't know what changes must be made to overcome this transaction bottleneck that always occurs.
BRC20 has to have its own trajectory, and they have to separate from Bitcoin so that there is not always congestion, but is it possible that it can happen?


However, in order for bitcoin to improved and become more developed, certain changes may apply. But those will be positive changes that everyone will agree, and not something like this that everyone gets more confused.
Positive changes are certainly eagerly awaited, but whether they address network congestion as it currently stands.
Whether to utilize and continue to develop the Bitcoin Network is still an unanswered question.
Bitcoin really needs to escape the congestion that often occurs these days.

Look at how the large increase in the number of transactions in BRC20,
this is always a spike that makes the network always congested.
https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/12/20/IuKh1.png
Source: https://dune.com/cryptokoryo/brc20

The increase in Bitcoin transactions has also increased
https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/12/20/Iublm.png
Source: https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_transactions_per_day


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Ryu_Ar1 on December 20, 2023, 07:04:07 PM
For now, transaction fees are still quite high and that's an undeniable fact but I think for transaction fees it starts because there are some situations that make them soar rapidly which results in fees becoming more crazy but on the other hand when a trend or an event starts to disappear then indirectly transaction fees also weaken. This means that in this case transaction fees will only appear in some specific periods and not for the whole transaction fees to jump.
Ordi can be one of the causes of that but I think for this it can still be minimized in the end even though now I have to think a few times to move or issue bitcoin that I have but I am still quite sure everything will definitely return to normal.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: electronicash on December 20, 2023, 07:17:41 PM

the devs are working on it. but each dev i think also has something in mind. BTC developers are divided in favor of big blocksize and small. i have no updates on what they are doing but they will need consensus on whatever is to be decided including the miners.

it's true though. BTC is designed to be a currency but when the transaction fee is this high, you would rather be using a stablecoin of a network with low tx fees.
one reason why we insist on using BTC is that BTC is best to have as an investment which we prefer to make a profit.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Sim_card on December 20, 2023, 07:30:11 PM
ORDI is like a pain in the ass currently for daily bitcoin users, as they can no longer make use of bitcoin as they want die to the high transaction fee. This has kept me worrying what will happen in the future if developers don't tackle this problem. I was thinking that it will last for two weeks but from the look of things, is like it has come to stay and something needs to be done fast, if not it will scare new adopters to the bitcoin ecosystem. This one that more BRC20 tokens will soon be lunched, it means that the transaction fee will be high like crazy and people that can't risk such amount will finally become hodlers. I just hope that everything goes back to normal so that one can enjoy cheap payment for transactions again.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: tabas on December 20, 2023, 07:38:35 PM
I thought that 2017 was the toughest but it's also nice because we're in the bull run by that time. Toughest as the fees was terrible back then but no it's not the worst but we've got this time more expensive fees. But it still varies and changing from time to time and I'm still in the hope that even with these ordis, sats and other brc20 tokens, we'll still see some light soon. It's not just the right time because they're in demand. What I am thinking right now, we deal with inflation in the real world whilst Bitcoin is a deflationary asset, the inflation that we deal IRL is the fees that we deal here for Bitcoin and transactions that we do. Well, I'm just looking at the brighter side of it that we'll see a new ATH as this could be the indication of it although we didn't experienced this a lot on 2021 bull run.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: coolcoinz on December 20, 2023, 08:02:06 PM
The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017.


It was never a thing. I don't know who had that concept of the cheapest network but this could never work. Bitcoin transaction was more expensive than a bank transfer 10 years ago.

Quote
Is this infestation being done by the government?

What government? the government of the world? :D

Bitcoin is hampered by factors such as environmental impact

There's no environmental impact. This whole narration is one big lie made to discredit bitcoin.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: usekevin on December 20, 2023, 08:06:06 PM

first of all to say that bitcoin’s whole concept is being the cheapest payment system may not be the most accurate bitcoin was made purposefully to be used as digital payment but without any third party

now getting that away it is truly worrisome that there seems to be no way around these high fees if bitcoin was used as intended like being used in daily transactions then it will be more congested it seems like the only way right now is to either pay high or do your transactions in times where the blockchain is not busy hopefully developers can soon implement a system where it will allow for faster transactions

The bitcoin was not created to made the cheap payment fee,it was created to make the digital for of currency and the digital payment.Both the digital payment and digital currency concept of the bitcoin was remains same.The only things changed was the bitcoin transaction fee from the beginning stage to now,I had seen the bitcoin transaction fee from the trust wallet itself 29$.So how the forum people who get the payment of 30$ will withdraw their payment to the exchange.It’s almost not possible,or he need to afford of one week payment.Lol

I thought that 2017 was the toughest but it's also nice because we're in the bull run by that time. Toughest as the fees was terrible back then but no it's not the worst but we've got this time more expensive fees. But it still varies and changing from time to time and I'm still in the hope that even with these ordis, sats and other brc20 tokens, we'll still see some light soon. It's not just the right time because they're in demand. What I am thinking right now, we deal with inflation in the real world whilst Bitcoin is a deflationary asset, the inflation that we deal IRL is the fees that we deal here for Bitcoin and transactions that we do. Well, I'm just looking at the brighter side of it that we'll see a new ATH as this could be the indication of it although we didn't experienced this a lot on 2021 bull run.

The year 2017 was biggest remarkable one,during that time the bitcoin had achieved the biggest target of 19k dollars.Which was the highest price of the bitcoin over a decade from the beginning of bitcoin origin.Many new people also get into the forum from 2017-2019 and made the Bitcoin community a wide range community.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: The Cryptovator on December 20, 2023, 08:22:21 PM
First of all, transaction fees ultimately increase when the price of bitcoin increases. At that time, the Bitcoin network became congested, and most of the time we calculated transaction fees in USD. The current network is congested due to a few BRC20 tokens, and it has become hype. So when the hype is over, the network will be normal. Basically, we can't prevent anyone from using the Bitcoin network. But we have to wait to end the hype and trend. These projects would dry out day by day, I believe. Otherwise, miners and developers have to find an alternative solution to reduce the fees.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: darkangel11 on December 20, 2023, 08:33:12 PM
The fees are becoming so worrisome and not making sense anymore with this crazy fees, as it is gradually shifting from what it used to be before, the cheap transactions fees we used to have back days, and I wonder what would be the transaction fees and the kind of network congestion we would experience going further as we haven't even hit the main bull market where we would likely have Bitcoin trading around $100k+ — $250k+ price per Bitcoin. This issue needs to be fixed with urgent attention, else the average Joe wouldn't be able to get their hands on Bitcoin because of its high fees when they think about how much they would spend on fees to get a small amount of BTC and seem it's where we are heading to and if care is not taken.

You talk like this has never happened before. It has!

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/12/20/IwADc.png

This is the average fee chart. This thing happens every few years every time there are people like you who say it's over, bitcoin needs to fix it or it's done and guess what, it wasn't done before and it's not done now. IMO bitcoin is robust and has a great way of overcoming with all difficulties on its path.
I don't care about fees. Let the Ordinals gang overpay until they run out of money. No sane person will pay $100 for a transaction.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Mate2237 on December 20, 2023, 08:47:54 PM
Op you have discussed my mind these days. People have said this time without number. People that accepting Bitcoin having issue for the transaction so I think they are using another coins for the transaction fee. And worst part of it is the developers are not saying and doing anything upon all the problem that is going on. Is it that they are benefiting from the ordinals. From my understanding of Bitcoin, it is a digital currency which is wise to pay goods and services but with this how can someone pay with bitcoin. Really I am not happy with this transaction fee issue.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Ojima-ojo on December 20, 2023, 09:20:25 PM
Op you have discussed my mind these days. People have said this time without number. People that accepting Bitcoin having issue for the transaction so I think they are using another coins for the transaction fee. And worst part of it is the developers are not saying and doing anything upon all the problem that is going on. Is it that they are benefiting from the ordinals. From my understanding of Bitcoin, it is a digital currency which is wise to pay goods and services but with this how can someone pay with bitcoin. Really I am not happy with this transaction fee issue.
Look, the thing is that, bitcoin is about freedom, the developers taking away ordinals will be like censoring them, which may not be right when we try to look at the fact that we all have been advertising bitcoin to be the only true decentralized blockchain, decentralized in the sense that, its owned by the entire community of bitcoin holders, and if you check, those who built and running the ordinals are also bitcoin holders too, which means they also own the bitcoin blockchain as well.

What I do think is the final solution to this whole menace of high transaction fees, which have become buggling, is for micro bitcoin payments be done over the bitcoin lightening network, it's time for use to massively adopt the bitcoin lightening network rather than have to pay alot of fees for small bitcoin transactions.
The main chain, which is the L1 can preserved for those who are transacting in but amount of bitcoin, and will without any complain of high fees, pay what ever amount of fees they have to pay to have their transactions confirmed.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: goldkingcoiner on December 20, 2023, 09:21:30 PM
Yes the whole ordinal situation is very frustrating and makes Bitcoin transaction fees higher than they need to be, but it is not Bitcoin-Breaking. In fact, Bitcoin transaction fees were never the lowest. If your only goal is low fees, then altcoins have always won out in that regard.

Bitcoin is for people seeking sanctuary from government/banking regulatory fascism, inflationary corruption and third-party money storage dependence. And it has been proven to be reliable and secure since 2009. That is almost 15 years of no hacks, no exploits and no corruption. Altcoins, on the other hand, require trust. Their fancy blockchain concepts tend to fall apart quite quickly. We see it happen almost monthly. Not to mention the insane price instability. If you want to risk losing your money in exchange for low transaction fees, go ahead.

The high fees from Bitcoin NFTs are definitely worth it. Although Bitcoin would be better off without NFTs.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Captain Corporate on December 20, 2023, 09:23:46 PM
Nobody ever said that bitcoins greatest feature is cheap form of transactions. That has never been the case, and if you really want to be precise about it, take a look at the transaction fees at 2021 and you will see that they are not really the same. I get that some people will think that transaction fees are a lot and they will complain about it, but that has been the case for bitcoin for many many years, it hasn't changed at all, when its in bear market it goes down, so some people forget that it used to be high, but in every bull period the fees are super high. We have that know and its not even 2024, because in 2024 and specially in 2025 there is a possibility that it will be even higher than this.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: tabas on December 20, 2023, 09:32:37 PM
I thought that 2017 was the toughest but it's also nice because we're in the bull run by that time. Toughest as the fees was terrible back then but no it's not the worst but we've got this time more expensive fees. But it still varies and changing from time to time and I'm still in the hope that even with these ordis, sats and other brc20 tokens, we'll still see some light soon. It's not just the right time because they're in demand. What I am thinking right now, we deal with inflation in the real world whilst Bitcoin is a deflationary asset, the inflation that we deal IRL is the fees that we deal here for Bitcoin and transactions that we do. Well, I'm just looking at the brighter side of it that we'll see a new ATH as this could be the indication of it although we didn't experienced this a lot on 2021 bull run.

The year 2017 was biggest remarkable one,during that time the bitcoin had achieved the biggest target of 19k dollars.Which was the highest price of the bitcoin over a decade from the beginning of bitcoin origin.Many new people also get into the forum from 2017-2019 and made the Bitcoin community a wide range community.
Don't forget about the fees were also high during that time IIRC. And not just for Bitcoin but also for altcoins like Ethereum, those days were like the first time in history to experience those dramatic fees gone up. Although we've felt that already before, this time is way too different from that because this way is worse than the past.

Nobody ever said that bitcoins greatest feature is cheap form of transactions.
While that's true but it was like one of the attributes of Bitcoin before when fees like a few centavos. And I've witnessed those days before when they're totally cheap then comes next the boasting of altcoins having cheap fees. But it's true that's not the case better as soon as there's a clog on their networks, they can't skip to have these horrible increase in fees.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: kojektea on December 20, 2023, 10:48:12 PM
If he initially used Bitcoin as an alternative payment, it should have worked, but he only got it as an alternative payment on a dark site at that time. When it was published it was restricted in several countries to protect the country's original currency, but even so, Bitcoin is still said to be successful in attracting many investors into this coin. No matter how public Bitcoin is, it still gets permission as a commodity asset where everyone has the right to use it as an investment tool. I conclude that Bitcoin has not failed, but it has changed its direction for the progress of Bitcoin and is easier to adopt in all countries.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: nelson4lov on December 20, 2023, 10:55:19 PM
This os exactly the reason why Bitcoin was not made for compute. It was made to be a simple settlement ledger to handle transactions. Using Bitcoin to compute and create things is only going to bloat the blockchain and keep fees continously high. It's the reasons we have multiple layers of blockchain on Ethereum simply because most of the transactions that originates from the EVM simple adds to transaction volumes and bumps up tx costs. It's the same thing we're experiencing with Bitcoin. Unless Bitcoin Developers manages to build a temp network or like an L2 for facilitating these Ordinals transactions, we'd still be plagued with these issues.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: panganib999 on December 20, 2023, 10:56:42 PM
Bro, we've been dealing with transaction fee problems since time immemorial, I don't think there's anything that's so different between 2021 and now. And I'm not saying it is not a problem cause it is, and it's already taking a massive toll upon the whole situation of bitcoin as we know it and would even cause bigger problems in the future but to tell you the truth, transaction fees and wait times are only a symptom of this larger problem that has been in discussion for over a decade now. Scalability.

Bitcoin is supposed to be scalable, at least in its model but because of the upsurge of users from over the years, not to mention the countless attempts at reinventing the wheel and hoping to bring new reason to invest in bitcoin apart from "it's very profitable", network congestion has been a problem for over a decade now. Now to me, that is a more important problem to find a solution for cause that will solve all problems that bitcoin have and will have.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Sanitough on December 20, 2023, 11:00:40 PM
The fees are becoming so worrisome and not making sense anymore with this crazy fees, as it is gradually shifting from what it used to be before, the cheap transactions fees we used to have back days, and I wonder what would be the transaction fees and the kind of network congestion we would experience going further as we haven't even hit the main bull market where we would likely have Bitcoin trading around $100k+ — $250k+ price per Bitcoin. This issue needs to be fixed with urgent attention, else the average Joe wouldn't be able to get their hands on Bitcoin because of its high fees when they think about how much they would spend on fees to get a small amount of BTC and seem it's where we are heading to and if care is not taken.
I believe this is not the first time that we experienced a congested market and see the transaction fees crazily surging its price. So the best solution I think is learn to minimize your transactions while transaction fees is not cheap. You can do it bimonthly or monthly to save some fees. That way, you will not be much affected with how spike in fees are currently happening these days.

However, I'm still confident to say that bitcoin concept has not changed at all. It's still highly volatile and profitable. Only the transaction fees are not right these days but eventually it will be back to normal as soon as the issue is fixed.



Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: kentrolla on December 20, 2023, 11:21:02 PM
If he initially used Bitcoin as an alternative payment, it should have worked, but he only got it as an alternative payment on a dark site at that time. When it was published it was restricted in several countries to protect the country's original currency, but even so, Bitcoin is still said to be successful in attracting many investors into this coin. No matter how public Bitcoin is, it still gets permission as a commodity asset where everyone has the right to use it as an investment tool. I conclude that Bitcoin has not failed, but it has changed its direction for the progress of Bitcoin and is easier to adopt in all countries.

This ain't about the adoptability or illegal/legal purview but rather it's about even more basic or I would say pillars on which Bitcoin was created which is hassle free, not so expensive and without any third person or party involvement which making P2P transfers and it doesn't make sense if this basic and most important aspect while making transfer is exorbitant amount? I don't think anyone making smaller or even mid range transfer would use Bitcoin as payment mode due to charges which would surpass their transfer amount itself. There shouldn't be spike in transfer fee which will eventually be a clot on Bitcoin.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: hatshepsut93 on December 20, 2023, 11:23:16 PM
Bitcoin had fundamental constraints right from the start - you make the blocks too large and the network stops being peer-to-peer, because only large entities would be able to afford a node. So for now we'll stick with Bitcoin-as-digital-gold use cases and wait for someone to come up with a clever scalability solution that doesn't sacrifice any other properties. We could also solve this current fee crisis by patching the client to prevent unintended features like NFTs, but I see very low chance of it actually happening, knowing how conservative Core developers are.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: serjent05 on December 20, 2023, 11:26:42 PM
I do not think that the whole concept of Bitcoin is failing. Bitcoin is not created to make a cheaper transaction fee.  Its purpose is to remove the third-party or any transaction that is relying on trust. See Bitcoin whitepaper, there is in no way that Satoshi stated that Bitcoin is created to minimize transaction fee, instead it says:

Code:
Abstract. A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online
payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution. Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main
benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending.
We propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer network.
The network timestamps transactions by hashing them into an ongoing chain of
hash-based proof-of-work, forming a record that cannot be changed without redoing
the proof-of-work. The longest chain not only serves as proof of the sequence of
events witnessed, but proof that it came from the largest pool of CPU power. As
long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to
attack the network, they'll generate the longest chain and outpace attackers. The
network itself requires minimal structure. Messages are broadcast on a best effort
basis, and nodes can leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the longest
proof-of-work chain as proof of what happened while they were gone.


Code:
12. Conclusion
We have proposed a system for electronic transactions without relying on trust. We started with
the usual framework of coins made from digital signatures, which provides strong control of
ownership, but is incomplete without a way to prevent double-spending. To solve this, we
proposed a peer-to-peer network using proof-of-work to record a public history of transactions
that quickly becomes computationally impractical for an attacker to change if honest nodes
control a majority of CPU power. The network is robust in its unstructured simplicity. Nodes
work all at once with little coordination. They do not need to be identified, since messages are
not routed to any particular place and only need to be delivered on a best effort basis. Nodes can
leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the proof-of-work chain as proof of what
happened while they were gone. They vote with their CPU power, expressing their acceptance of
valid blocks by working on extending them and rejecting invalid blocks by refusing to work on
them. Any needed rules and incentives can be enforced with this consensus mechanism.

The cheaper transaction fee is just one of the possible good outcome if the third party financial mediator is removed but it is not the main concept of Bitcoin.

Code:
1. Introduction
Commerce on the Internet has come to rely almost exclusively on financial institutions serving as
trusted third parties to process electronic payments. While the system works well enough for
most transactions, it still suffers from the inherent weaknesses of the trust based model.
Completely non-reversible transactions are not really possible, since financial institutions cannot
avoid mediating disputes. The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the
minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions,
and there is a broader cost in the loss of ability to make non-reversible payments for nonreversible services. With the possibility of reversal, the need for trust spreads. Merchants must
be wary of their customers, hassling them for more information than they would otherwise need.
A certain percentage of fraud is accepted as unavoidable. These costs and payment uncertainties
can be avoided in person by using physical currency, but no mechanism exists to make payments
over a communications channel without a trusted party.
What is needed is an electronic payment system based on cryptographic proof instead of trust,
allowing any two willing parties to transact directly with each other without the need for a trusted
third party. Transactions that are computationally impractical to reverse would protect sellers
from fraud, and routine escrow mechanisms could easily be implemented to protect buyers. In
this paper, we propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer distributed
timestamp server to generate computational proof of the chronological order of transactions. The
system is secure as long as honest nodes collectively control more CPU power than any
cooperating group of attacker nodes.

Source: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Jawhead999 on December 21, 2023, 03:58:24 AM
I am assuming that you have read the whitepaper! Then answer my simple question, why and what was the reason Bitcoin was created? Please quote me the page number from the whitepaper, if you reply to my question. Otherwise you would become another troll replying for the sake of quota.
I thought you can answer it by yourself, since it's a simple question. But if you ask me, then let me answer it.

Bitcoin is created to eliminate third party, giving you a choice to hold your own asset and send it without relying on third party, that's. So if there are disadvantages in high transaction fee, waiting for ~10 minutes to be confirmed etc, that can't be the reason Bitcoin is failing, actually Bitcoin was never fall because no hack history and has no chance to get 51% attack. (https://www.crypto51.app/)

Abstract. A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution. Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending. We propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer network. The network timestamps transactions by hashing them into an ongoing chain of hash-based proof-of-work, forming a record that cannot be changed without redoing the proof-of-work. The longest chain not only serves as proof of the sequence of events witnessed, but proof that it came from the largest pool of CPU power. As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to attack the network, they'll generate the longest chain and outpace attackers. The network itself requires minimal structure. Messages are broadcast on a best effort basis, and nodes can leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the longest proof-of-work chain as proof of what happened while they were gone.


Quote
It was never about cheap fee, it was about fees that were below those that the government charged as at that time Bitcoin was the only payment entity that could get funds from one country to other in a few hours in the cheapest of fee.
Wrong! Bitcoin was not the only one cheapest cryptocurrency to be used for borderless payment, there were many cryptocurrencies exist before 2017. (https://www.oldest.org/technology/oldest-cryptocurrencies/)


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Faisal2202 on December 21, 2023, 05:46:52 PM
Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developer plan for the future? Is this infestation being done by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.
You are right and something should be done or this Ordinal problem will eat away the main purpose of BTC for which it was made. I have been against it from day one, and never inscribed a single item on the BTC blockchain yet, the main reason behind this surge in BRC-20 transactions is airdrops. many people who inscribed or minted new BRC-20 tokens made millions of dollars by paying a small amount of fee and now those tokens or NFTs worth a hell lot of money.

I made a few topics on this issue, and how the transaction fee raised to $30+ in no matter of time. I hoped this issue would be resolved soon and to be honest I never expected that it would be running this long and still running. But I have heard in some TG groups and here on BTT also that some groups or maybe a single developer are going to solve this ordinals problem by the end of 2024. As they said when the knot V27 will come in the first or maybe 2nd quarter of 2024.

The ordinal problem will be solved. If that happens then all of the money from BRC-20 tokens will be shift to BTC and the dominance will increase and it is a win-win from all sides for BTC. Now let's see the progress of knot v27


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Franctoshi on December 21, 2023, 06:27:48 PM
The fees are becoming so worrisome and not making sense anymore with this crazy fees, as it is gradually shifting from what it used to be before, the cheap transactions fees we used to have back days, and I wonder what would be the transaction fees and the kind of network congestion we would experience going further as we haven't even hit the main bull market where we would likely have Bitcoin trading around $100k+ — $250k+ price per Bitcoin. This issue needs to be fixed with urgent attention, else the average Joe wouldn't be able to get their hands on Bitcoin because of its high fees when they think about how much they would spend on fees to get a small amount of BTC and seem it's where we are heading to and if care is not taken.


You can do it bimonthly or monthly to save some fees. That way, you will not be much affected with how spike in fees are currently happening these days.
This is you talking from the investors point of view or perspective, There are people that use Bitcoin for doing business transactions on a daily basis and not only for investment purposes. Here in my country, most of my friends who are into importation business overseas use Bitcoin because of the central bank policy in my country that restricts people to do more than $100 on international transactions per month and for those who are into business you have to pass some difficult processes before the Bank can release bigger amount of dollar for you, and sometimes it can take some weeks to get approved, So In such a situation many have sorted to using Bitcoin in doing their importation business overseas and now the fees are high and at same time facing network congestion, this is the angle from which I'm also pinpointing.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: DooMAD on December 21, 2023, 06:28:53 PM
But I have heard in some TG groups and here on BTT also that some groups or maybe a single developer are going to solve this ordinals problem by the end of 2024. As they said when the knot V27 will come in the first or maybe 2nd quarter of 2024.

The ordinal problem will be solved. If that happens then all of the money from BRC-20 tokens will be shift to BTC and the dominance will increase and it is a win-win from all sides for BTC. Now let's see the progress of knot v27

All 'Knots' is achieving at the moment is getting itself disconnected from certain pools  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5478118.msg63333815#msg63333815).  People aren't likely to start using Knots if that situation escalates further.  

And there seems to be some opposition to the idea on GitHub (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/28408), so I wouldn't hold your breath on this being solved any time soon.

It sounds like these people on Telegram and here on the forum need to read more and spread a little less hype.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Antotena on December 21, 2023, 06:38:21 PM
Consider the situation we were in 2021 and then considering the present situation we are in, what do you think is the problem? Most of us would say nothing! I would say it is the transaction fees, won't you agree on this part.

What is wrong is wrong in opinion but if the community says it's for the best and they are not complaining, I don't think even the voices of small groups will do something either. The fees doesn't make sense to the common groups of people that transact almost every day but they call it adoption which is fine by me. My bitcoin aren't moving, so I have no problems in what they call this but I know for sure that this will not continue forever, a solution will come if they really want progress for Bitcoin because I don't see bitcoin going far if we are going to pay $30 for each transaction every year.

Quote
The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017. Then came a time when institutional investors started buyin Bitcoin and we saw a new ATH. Everything was looking good until these guys, ORDI started utilizing the infrastructure for their own shit agenda.

What has happened now? High transaction fee, congested Bitcoin blockchain and continuous discussion about Ordinals. Cursing the miners and what not!

Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developer plan for the future? Is this infestation being done by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.

I think that's why some developers left for another hard form that happened back then but did that end well, the split was ineffective and wasn't successful but who knows maybe those were only after their on interest.

The ordinals are the next thing in crypto to many people and that sats inscription is doing nothing but increased fees to those using the network, but at the same time, I don't think they will let's that go because if they don't want it to be around, they wouldn't have encourage it in the beginning but it has grown with more than $1 billion market capitalization, will they let that's waste, I don't think so and these fees aren't stopping now but perhaps after the halving.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: thecodebear on December 21, 2023, 07:18:30 PM
The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017. Then came a time when institutional investors started buyin Bitcoin and we saw a new ATH. Everything was looking good until these guys, ORDI started utilizing the infrastructure for their own shit agenda.
I'm curious where did you read "the whole concept of Bitcoin is cheapest payment"? I didn't find it through the whitepaper.

I guess this is what we need to expect if most of Bitcoin is already mined and mining no longer profitable, I don't think the miners are fine to accept loses just to make people can able to proceed their transactions.

Sooner or later we will be forced to use L2.


Mining will always be profitable. It's a self regulating system, when it becomes not profitable the least efficient miners have to drop out and it becomes profitable again.

And of course we'll all be using L2 eventually. Bitcoin wasn't made to handle massive amounts of transactions. Bitcoin only works for payments on L2. On-chain is for moving lots of money around or for batching many transactions-to-one either through crypto companies batching transactions or through effectivecly batching transactions by using L2, where presumably there will be thousands of transactions for every one on-chain transaction. Anyone who understands how Bitcoin works understands this.

Bitcoin wasn't made to be cheap, it was made to be self-banking, decentralized, censorship-resistant, secure, unstoppable, digital hard money. Cheap transactions were just a side effect of Bitcoin not be used much the first few years. As Bitcoin grows naturally 99%+ of transactions will be done on L2 and other off-chain solutions because paying for stuff needs to be cheap but that's not what the blockchain was made to do.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Mr.suevie on December 21, 2023, 07:33:09 PM
Consider the situation we were in 2021 and then considering the present situation we are in, what do you think is the problem? Most of us would say nothing! I would say it is the transaction fees, won't you agree on this part.

The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017. Then came a time when institutional investors started buyin Bitcoin and we saw a new ATH. Everything was looking good until these guys, ORDI started utilizing the infrastructure for their own shit agenda.

What has happened now? High transaction fee, congested Bitcoin blockchain and continuous discussion about Ordinals. Cursing the miners and what not!

Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developer plan for the future? Is this infestation being done by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.
Nicely said mate, this thing has become a menace for we Bitcoin lovers and promoters and not to talk of the multiple devastating effects this ordinal shit has caused to the Bitcoin ecosystem. The worse part this time own high fee rise is that it's not getting any better but even worse by the day. I could only imagine the number of business that have crumble because of this ordinal shit.

The lightening network that was a major solution for it's creation too have had slow adoption maybe due to complicity of its use, if only there was a way to actually prohibit the ordinal bastard from inscribing their transaction on the Bitcoin network to avoid similar situation in the future.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Abiky on December 21, 2023, 09:30:13 PM
Consider the situation we were in 2021 and then considering the present situation we are in, what do you think is the problem? Most of us would say nothing! I would say it is the transaction fees, won't you agree on this part.

The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017. Then came a time when institutional investors started buyin Bitcoin and we saw a new ATH. Everything was looking good until these guys, ORDI started utilizing the infrastructure for their own shit agenda.

What has happened now? High transaction fee, congested Bitcoin blockchain and continuous discussion about Ordinals. Cursing the miners and what not!

Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developer plan for the future? Is this infestation being done by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.

High fees are concercing, but it's part of the "natural process" of mainstream adoption. Even without Ordinals, fees will increase if there's a lot of demand for BTC. The only viable solution for scaling would be to increase the block size. L2/off-chain scaling solutions don't work because they still require an on-chain fee for opening/closing channels. Not to mention, they're centralized and highly-experimental.

The community will ultimately decide the best path forward for the cryptocurrency. What we need to worry about is not the fees, but the way Bitcoin is organized. As long as decentralization/censorship-resistance is preserved, nothing else matters. Hopefully, the dust will settle after the block reward halving. I'd would wait to see what happens by then. :)


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: icalical on December 21, 2023, 10:05:44 PM
To be honest, in my opinion we were never be in the state where Bitcoin original concept that was proposed as Currency. Until now the majority of Bitcoin holder is a speculators who consider Bitcoin as an investment, not currency. I dare to say that they barely spend 1mSat or $1 worth of Bitcoin monthly. So it is not failing if this concept were never established in the first place.

But I do agree that this ordinals is making it worse, now they use Bitcoin Blockchain as if like it is a launchpad platform, and occupying the blockchain node that were supposed to be use for BTC transaction as currency.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: jeraldskie11 on December 21, 2023, 10:18:14 PM
It's very rare to experience network congestion in Bitcoin way back 2021 but today the network is congested almost every day. Maybe it's because of the brc20 tokens, not just because of Ordi and Sats. A lot of brc20 tokens came out and I think that's the reason. Back then we only heard of Ethereum having problems with this, but now it's Bitcoin. I believe that miners benefit a lot when this happened since the fee is so high.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: oktana on December 21, 2023, 10:47:25 PM
I’m sorry, was the concept of Bitcoin to be the cheapest payment system? No. The concept of Bitcoin has its primary focus on decentralization, security, P2P electronic cash, etc. But I do agree that the transaction fee happens to be a big challenge in general. What’s even worse is that we do not know what’s happening next, will the transaction fees keep flying high or will it reduce already? But nonetheless, Satoshi’s focus wasn’t cheapest payment system.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Samlucky O on December 21, 2023, 10:52:46 PM
Consider the situation we were in 2021 and then considering the present situation we are in, what do you think is the problem? Most of us would say nothing! I would say it is the transaction fees, won't you agree on this part.

The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017
If bitcoin was to be human, I think on its own never knew  the transaction fee would have been this high. But frequent transactions on its blockchain has increased to the extent transactions is now congested and are waiting to be confirmed in memepool. I think i
The traffic in the network is the real cause of that and I think that will be a solution with no less time.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: serjent05 on December 21, 2023, 11:06:01 PM
High fees are concercing, but it's part of the "natural process" of mainstream adoption. Even without Ordinals, fees will increase if there's a lot of demand for BTC. The only viable solution for scaling would be to increase the block size. L2/off-chain scaling solutions don't work because they still require an on-chain fee for opening/closing channels. Not to mention, they're centralized and highly-experimental.

I agree, that Bitcoin needs to scale in order to process transaction without the fee surging when an influx of people adopt Bitcoin and do transfers.  If Bitcoin fail to scale, I believe that would be the end of Bitcoin since no one will continuously use a system where transfer fee are surging when there is an available method to do transactions with way lower fees.  Those who will continue to sue unscalable Bitcoin network system will eventually dry up their funds...

The community will ultimately decide the best path forward for the cryptocurrency. What we need to worry about is not the fees, but the way Bitcoin is organized. As long as decentralization/censorship-resistance is preserved, nothing else matters. Hopefully, the dust will settle after the block reward halving. I'd would wait to see what happens by then. :)

For multi-million dollar people, the fee is not the problem but for regular people that do small transfers, that is very concerning.  Even a company will go bankrupt if it won't charge its clients of transaction fee when the client decides to withdraw their BTC.  Hopefully, Bitcoin can fix the fee surge problem caused by ordinals without sacrificing its decentralization feature.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Baofeng on December 21, 2023, 11:24:49 PM
I’m sorry, was the concept of Bitcoin to be the cheapest payment system? No. The concept of Bitcoin has its primary focus on decentralization, security, P2P electronic cash, etc. But I do agree that the transaction fee happens to be a big challenge in general. What’s even worse is that we do not know what’s happening next, will the transaction fees keep flying high or will it reduce already? But nonetheless, Satoshi’s focus wasn’t cheapest payment system.

Yes, perhaps what he meant is that it was design by Satoshi to be a payment system. So it could be cheap in the beginning, but we all know that Bitcoin has evolved so much and now it is a store of value and assets.

But as far as the concern of OP regarding the transaction fee is absolutely right. As we can see there's a lot of threads about the implications of those ordinals clogging the network forcing the fees to skyrocket. And just imagine what it will bring to the ecosystem if we hit the bull run in the next coming years. Perhaps something needs to be done here uses LN, but not sure if that will be the solution to be honest.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Dump3er on December 21, 2023, 11:35:58 PM
Consider the situation we were in 2021 and then considering the present situation we are in, what do you think is the problem? Most of us would say nothing! I would say it is the transaction fees, won't you agree on this part.

The whole concept of Bitcoin being the cheapest payment system already got ruined after 2017. Then came a time when institutional investors started buyin Bitcoin and we saw a new ATH. Everything was looking good until these guys, ORDI started utilizing the infrastructure for their own shit agenda.

What has happened now? High transaction fee, congested Bitcoin blockchain and continuous discussion about Ordinals. Cursing the miners and what not!

Where are we going as a Bitcoin community? What do the developer plan for the future? Is this infestation being done by the government? Let's discuss possibilities or we might end up with nothing before the next halving.

It has never been unknown that rising BTC transactoin fees are an inevitable consequence of widespread interest in the network. Maybe one thing that people were more optimistic about was the depth and pace of development of scalability solutions. But all things equal, it was well known that if tons of money flow into the network and no serious scalability solutons can be presented, feels will go up no matter what. It has also been correctly pointed out in a different thread that high fees can be considered a long term necessity (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5473528.msg63365025#msg63365025) in order for the network to be effectively secured against attacks.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Zigabel on December 22, 2023, 10:34:13 AM
Transaction fees have really been high recently but then this isn't the first time we are experiencing such so there will be no need for too much panic as it will be back to normal soon just as we have experienced over time even some times in 2019 and 2021, it could be the anticipation for the halving and the continuous demand for the use of Bitcoin, moreover, more countries are adopting the legal usage of Bitcoin as a legal tender so it is expected as the demand increases a proportional increase in transactions fee will accompany the demand and price movement.

Probably after the halving, by the next bull run transactions fee may turn out fair enough but the congestion on Bitcoin chain is something I'm not certain about how soon that will be taken care of.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Natsuu on December 22, 2023, 01:22:59 PM
Transaction fees have really been high recently but then this isn't the first time we are experiencing such so there will be no need for too much panic as it will be back to normal soon just as we have experienced over time even some times in 2019 and 2021, it could be the anticipation for the halving and the continuous demand for the use of Bitcoin, moreover, more countries are adopting the legal usage of Bitcoin as a legal tender so it is expected as the demand increases a proportional increase in transactions fee will accompany the demand and price movement.

Probably after the halving, by the next bull run transactions fee may turn out fair enough but the congestion on Bitcoin chain is something I'm not certain about how soon that will be taken care of.

Yeah it’s understandable that transaction fees have been high lately, considering factors like the halving, increased Bitcoin adoption and the demand. Since fluctuations are normal and things may stabilize post-halving. The challenge might be addressing congestion on the Bitcoin chain for smoother transactions. I think given the increasing adoption of Bitcoin as legal tender which i am hoping and the anticipation surrounding the halving, it's plausible that transaction fees will balance out over time. Don’t you think?



Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Faisal2202 on December 22, 2023, 01:26:02 PM
And there seems to be some opposition to the idea on GitHub (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/28408), so I wouldn't hold your breath on this being solved any time soon.

It sounds like these people on Telegram and here on the forum need to read more and spread a little less hype.
Thanks for this information I was not aware of this refusal coming from the community but I hope in some way this ordinal thing gets resolved, it is causing so much pain in the ace, If people are against this idea on GitHub or on any other platform then this indicates that developers are at least thinking about it. They will make some efforts for it, and these situations that BTC has created for us will force them to come up with some suitable solution.

Actually, I am not that active on GitHub and I am not a developer so, I don't know much about technical things, but in the post you have mentioned, I will understand the terms used in it.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Webetcoins on December 22, 2023, 02:22:11 PM
Though we all want fees to be low and such high fees are a problem, I don't think Satoshi created Bitcoin for cheap transactions but the main purpose of Bitcoin was to become a secure peer-to-peer payment method so that people can transaction money to one another with a decentralized payment system where no central authority would be involved, and the purpose is still intact, even though people mostly use Bitcoin as an investment these days instead of what it was created for but I don't blame anyone.

I'm not disagreeing and I understand that fees are a problem because you do need to make transactions with it even if you are using it as an investment or trading with it or using it for gambling or any other purpose. However, these things will become a greater problem if Bitcoin becomes an actual mode of payment in the mainstream world which isn't the case at the moment.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: so98nn on December 22, 2023, 02:47:41 PM
That is why it has become imminent to find a mining solution or maybe increase the mining operations. It is evident that network difficulty is rising, however miners are losing the battle to tackle all the transactions that are getting broadcasted. This means, we either need to upgrade the technology at hand or increase the bulk mining preferences.

This is impossible but imagine the government stepping in with its operational facilities for the mining. Then they can become faster since they have more capacity to develop infra, get electricity at cheap rates for themselves, buy the equipment at a lower cost or maybe mass produce the same. I know government agreeing on this is literally next to impossible but imagine that happening in the near future.

It can make bitcoin available at government facilities, thus more public getting involved with it. This will definitely rise the price but lower the fees since tech will be advance and widespread.


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: Abiky on December 23, 2023, 08:12:42 PM
I’m sorry, was the concept of Bitcoin to be the cheapest payment system? No. The concept of Bitcoin has its primary focus on decentralization, security, P2P electronic cash, etc. But I do agree that the transaction fee happens to be a big challenge in general. What’s even worse is that we do not know what’s happening next, will the transaction fees keep flying high or will it reduce already? But nonetheless, Satoshi’s focus wasn’t cheapest payment system.

Well, if we want Bitcoin to be used as a payments system, fees need to be as low as possible. Otherwise, Bitcoin would only be used as a store of value for large money transfers. I think this is what "Wall Street" wants, especially when several crypto industry players are in support of Ordinals. Miners won't let go of their huge revenue just because most users don't like Ordinals. So we should expect fees to remain high for quite some time.

Bitcoin's only "salvation" would be an increase in the block size limit. The Lightning Network has been proven from time to time to be an utter failure. Not only that it's buggy, but you'd still need to pay a high on-chain fee just to open/close a channel. This is not scalable, in my opinion. I just hope things get back to normal soon, so Bitcoin can fulfill its purpose of being a system for the "unbanked". People from developing countries (El Salvador) are suffering the most with high on-chain fees. Who knows what the future holds for the cryptocurrency?  :-\


Title: Re: The Whole Concept of Bitcoin is Failing!
Post by: oktana on December 23, 2023, 10:41:11 PM
I’m sorry, was the concept of Bitcoin to be the cheapest payment system? No. The concept of Bitcoin has its primary focus on decentralization, security, P2P electronic cash, etc. But I do agree that the transaction fee happens to be a big challenge in general. What’s even worse is that we do not know what’s happening next, will the transaction fees keep flying high or will it reduce already? But nonetheless, Satoshi’s focus wasn’t cheapest payment system.

Yes, perhaps what he meant is that it was design by Satoshi to be a payment system. So it could be cheap in the beginning, but we all know that Bitcoin has evolved so much and now it is a store of value and assets.

But as far as the concern of OP regarding the transaction fee is absolutely right. As we can see there's a lot of threads about the implications of those ordinals clogging the network forcing the fees to skyrocket. And just imagine what it will bring to the ecosystem if we hit the bull run in the next coming years. Perhaps something needs to be done here uses LN, but not sure if that will be the solution to be honest.

If you are saying the “yes” in regards to being cheap, then I beg to differ. Bitcoin doesn’t have anything to do with being a cheap payment system. Did Satoshi mention in the whitepaper that this was his aim? I am not saying that the expensive transaction fee is perfect and what I want, but I know for a fact that the transaction fee wasn’t his focus or purpose of creating Bitcoin. If it was, then the concept of Bitcoin already failed long ago when these cheap transaction fee cryptocurrencies (like XLM) came in place. Bitcoin was aimed at decentralization, security, etc. let’s hope the fees drop anyways.