Bitcoin Forum

EDIT: PLEASE MAKE SURE TO VOTE FOR TWO

I think that I wasn't getting many people voting in the poll because there were too few choices.  So I added a bunch of popular choices.  If we each just vote for one it will be hard to come to a consensus, so vote for two.

voted.

My opinion is here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=593705.msg6527215#msg6527215

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

I know exactly what it means.  The purpose of this poll is not to determine the consensus, but to build it.  This poll will let people know what choices other people prefer.  Most people who support unpopular choices will recognize that and start considering the more popular choices.  So the result of this poll will be that popular choices are strengthened at the expense of weaker choices.  This gets us closer to consensus.

I prefer "100 satoshis" (no change), but there is no such option...

It's going to simply be called "bit". Example: "That'll be 4550 bits for your coffee."

http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html

Obviously using standard metric prefixes makes more direct logical sense, but we have to be sensitive to public "layperson" perceptions here. Metric prefixes seem too techy/confusing to most people, and "bits" seems fairly natural to say and reasonably non-techy. Yet it also successfully conveys a sense that this is next-gen "internet money" *and* it has monetary vernacular ties to the past.

^ That's my two bits, at least.

Call it LittleBits

Is there anywhere else in the field of money that people use SI prefixes?

I have never heard of a kilodollar, megadollar, millidollar, etc.  Does any country use SI prefixes for their money?

I'm pretty sure there there is no metric currency in the world.  If people actually wanted a metric currency they had a great opportunity: the creation of the Euro.  The fact that the Euro is not metric seems to be pretty strong evidence that the world will never have metric currency.

I don't know whether BitPay will succeed with this, but this is the way to gather real consensus and bring about change - if it's a popular change with BitPay users, those users will help spread it, other merchants will start using it.

Informally, "k" is a common nickname for thousand but most currencies predate metric (and even SI). One interesting exception is "cent" - the revolutionary zeal in the new-born US presumed that the metric system would catch on, and the proposed pefix for hundreds - "centi-" - was adopted for the hundredth division of a dollar - a year or two, I think, before France adopted metric.

The dollar is broken into cents, not centidollars.  The cent symbol is ¢ rather than c$.

The Euro had the opportunity to be a metric currency, but it isn't.

Please make sure to vote for two choices.  If you only voted for one you can go back and change your vote.

Voting for two choices helps build consensus.

Dollar: Yes, that's right. This predated the formal adoption of the metric system, and the centuries of revision that have followed. The first version of the metric system, the system adopted by France, used 1s and hundreds (an "are" was (is still) 100 square metres, for example).

Euro: the Euro uses cents (or "cent", according to Brussels) as the hundredth division of the Euro). But since the US dollar every currency has moved to a 10^x system - GBP was the last hold-out so far as I know.

centoshi

we have a winner, please add to the choice list.

a dorian

https://i.imgur.com/Toslzb7.jpg (https://i.imgur.com/Toslzb7.jpg)

 :-\

You must be new around here.

Yes, that's my choice too.

Exactly!

Arguments between Bitcoiners tend to be very exhausting. :D

Yakuza

"centoshi" has been added, in accordance with popular demand.  You can change your votes on this poll.  Please make sure to vote for two.

bits would be best name for 100 satoshi

Thank god the majority of votes are NOT for 'bit'.  ::)

Most of these could be used at the same time: real currencies have multiple names, as do essential concepts. (The reference denomination of the world's first global digital decentralized currency certainly counts as something that could have multiple names, varying by community-of-interest, region, or language.)

Only the terms with 'bit' in them clash strongly with each other: because the 'u' in 'ubits' comes from µ/mu/micro/millionth, having both 'ubits' and 'bits' in common use presents a contradiction. (The 'bit' part means two different things, so the relationship "bit = ubit makes the 'u' a nonsense noop.)

So I'd suggest fans of 'uBits' remain open to the idea of 'ub', pronounced 'yubee' or 'yubees', instead. It's a variant that can coexist with other people using 'bit', offers a shorter abbreviation, and retains the implied derivation from µBTC.

That is, all of the following terms could circulate simultaneously as synonyms for 'microbitcoin' (which to be pedantic is also a 'hectosatoshi'), without logical contradiction:

• zib
• bit
• ub
• mic
• centoshi

(The relationship "microbitcoin = zib = bit = ub = mic = centoshi" is plausibly logical.)

Different software, websites, and communities would tend towards different terms – we'd see from real-life usage which are most natural and 'sticky' – and they'd each just document, "all these words – zib, bit, ub, mic, centoshi – are synonyms for 'microbitcoin', 100 satoshi, 1 millionth of the classic 'bitcoin'".

For example, any of the following could be mutually-intelligible:

"Mr. K, your large frappucino will be...

   ...10,000 zib
   ...10,000 bits
   ...10,000 ub
   ...10,000 mics
   ...10,000 centoshi"

Yes, it is true that "bit" is not the first or even second choice of a majority of people.

However none of the others have a majority yet, so it is clear that we are a long way from a consensus.  51% isn't enough; we need more like 85%.  Otherwise people will ignore the newly named unit and just keep working with bitcoins.

That's actually one strength of switching the definition of the word "bitcoin".  Unlike the other options, it only takes a majority to force the switch.

BITS seems like a very roll-off-the-tongue kinda name. Very intuitive.

Actually, we don't need to have a consensus.
Remember the discussion three years ago, whether it should be XBT or BTC?

There was a lot of discussion at that time; however, as it turns out, it's no problem at all to have two symbols in actual use.
Different people would just call it different things. As long as everyone knows that these words are synonymous, there won't be a problem.

What really becomes a problem is if different people have a different conception of the same word (i.e. redefining "bitcoin"). Then there will be mistakes.



After all, we actually have a consensus for switching to µBTC, there's just no consensus to rename that unit.

Rather to most Americans, that get used to inches, pounds and miles. "Layperson" from "metric" countries get used to kilograms, kilometers and millimeters, so it would be easy for them.

in both cases mentioned above those measurements are both bottom-up measurements. (starting at 1 and going up in increments)

the ubtc mbtc argument (top down going from 1 to 0.1 0.01 etc) is 'hopefully' now dead. and we agree that bottom up is best, starting from 100 satoshi's as the base/popular measurement



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=592691.220


'bit' was at 79% at this posts timestamp.. with a total of 524 votes.

i think thats called a majority, even this topic is showing bits as being a majority

and as for klabaki's trademark 'zib', a few have already worked out that its not so 'unrecognised' and 'unused' as he first thought


whats next a startrek fan trying to push gpl (gold pressed latinum).
bits is the front runner so far,
zib is just a corporate leasing of a brand name just waiting to happen
so lets think smart of better suggestions, or stick with bits

Sorry I'm such a stickler, but I really think the proper name should be either "100 satoshis" or 1 microbtc or μbtc (or, less elegantly ubtc---still I get it that u can be an 'ascii' μ in some sense).  The metric prefixes are too universal and too applicable to ignore:

1000000bitcoins    = 1Mbtc
1000bitcoins         = 1Kbtc
1bitcoin               = 1btc
0.001bitcoins        = 1mbtc
0.000001bitcoins   = 1μbtc

You could do the same thing for satoshis, you could call 100 satoshi's 1 hectosatoshi.  I'd know exactly what you mean!

going below 2 decimals is ugly for common man. but i do agree with bottom up measurements such as 'hectoshi'
where a comparison would be with gold

tonne =bitcoin
ounce = hectoshi / bit / whatever consensus chooses
gram = satoshi

where theres not much multiple decimals but many opportunities for the 'significant figures' to multiply



.. although i am laughing at the poll having centoshi as a option, as thats just wrong

This is my view as well.  We should just dispense with all the m, u, and whatevers and just go with satoshi.  I already think in those terms anyway when dealing with small amounts of bitcoin.  I think these things just confuse people, especially those new to bitcoin.

If we want to go bottom-up, then these units would be the most logical choice:

            1 atomic unit  = 1 satoshi  = 1 sat
           10 atomic units = 1 decasat  = 1 dasat
          100 atomic units = 1 hectosat = 1 hsat
        1 000 atomic units = 1 kilosat  = 1 ksat
    1 000 000 atomic units = 1 megasat  = 1 Msat
1 000 000 000 atomic units = 1 gigasat  = 1 Gsat

Can we get a consensus for that?

[X] micros or mics

just like dollar <-> cents ("cent" just means 1/100, it isn't "centdollar")

bitcoin <-> micros (1 millionth)

There can also be intermediary "millies" (1 thousandth of a bitcoin)

I believe if they're officially called millibitcoins and microbitcoins, "millies" and "micros" will become colloquially common anyway in every-day street language.

---

oh I see there's a "mike" but I don't like the spelling

Same here! I think shortening "micro" to "mike" just doesn't make sense in any language... except English. :-\
It should be "mic".



There need to be three things:

(A) The official word / long form: This is definitely "millibitcoin" / "microbitcoin". I haven't seen much other proposals.

(B) Informal / colloquial terms: That's what most discussion goes about. But I think it's the least important one. What sense does it make to convince complete strangers on the internet what their new slang word should be? That's just wasting time!

(C) The official abbreviation / short form: I think that this is what most discussion should go about. Yet, I've seen only very few posts about it. :(

Currently, the Bitcoin Core reference client uses "mBTC" and "µBTC".

I think that this is actually wrong (Yes, it's a bug!), because the SI prefixes should be applied to units of measurement (which are normally lowercase or have at most one uppercase letter), and not three letter currency codes, which are all uppercase.
I mean, the units to which SI prefixes are normally applied look like this:
1 kW = 1 kilowatt
1 hPa = 1 hectopascal
1 GHz = 1 gigahertz
These units never have multiple uppercase letters, so BTC just doesn't fit in there. We need something lowercase.

This is how other lowercase units are abbreviated:
1 second = 1 sec.
1 minute = 1 min.

Following this logic, we get:
1 mbitcoin = 1 mbit.
1 µbitcoin = 1 µbit.

→ Therefore, my suggestion is to use "mbit." and "µbit." instead of "mBTC" and "µBTC" as the official abbreviation for "millibitcoin" and "microbitcoin".

Hopefully, "µbit" is a fair compromise for most of the colloquial terms that are floating around. Everyone could "read out of it" what they like most,
i.e. µbit somewhat suggests all of these: micro, mic, mike, ubit, bit...

"mike" lol  :D

i prefer "roger"

It's one Finney.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155054.msg4819870#msg4819870

???

Looks like bits and ubits lead the way. These could be used interchangeably, no?

I was referring to the base unit, i.e. just "Hz" (= hertz). The G in in GHz (gigahertz) is just a prefix that is applied in front of the actual unit.

What I wanted to say is that the base unit (without prefix), has at most one uppercase letter.

Sorry.  I see what you're saying now.

Until now, I never noticed that base units have at most 1 upper case letter.

Looks like this idea got some traction at r/bitcoin too http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/24rq1b/%C2%B5bit_proposal_%C2%B5bit_becomes_official_name_for_the/

It's weird how we vote for these things and we never use them,

Well I haven't seen anyone use these names.

Looks like others had the same idea as I had some posts above. It can't be too far off then. :D

However, I believe that Satoshi told us to write a lowercase "b" when talking about the unit of measurement, i.e. it should be µbit, not µBit...


Edit:
Ah, I can see their reasoning now: The unit (µ)"bit" is already taken as a unit of information, so they're proposing (µ)"Bit" to mean the unit of money: (µ)bitcoin.

BitPay seems to be moving forward with actual usage http://blog.bitpay.com/2014/05/02/bitpay-bitcoin-and-where-to-put-that-decimal-point.html

We've had lots of discussion in the past but now that the price is stabilizing with 3 digits it's pushing the community to resolve the issue. This is how adoption begins to happen naturally I believe.

Personally, I would accept this compromise:

https://i.imgur.com/s32BxHC.jpg

(Quoted from Reddit)

They should be called Toshis

it's an important step in the evolution of bitcoin that companies dictate the vocabulary bitcoin users have to use. however, ponzis would be a nice name too.

No I don't think so.  A bit in that context is either a 1 or a 0 and bits of information cannot be subdivided.  AFAIK there is no such thing as a millionth of a 1 or a millionth of a 0.

I think you're basically on the right track with this post, the only thing is that once you're talking about Msat or Gsat, the BTC is a better unit.  I mean rather than talk about millions of satoshis (Msat), isn't is simpler to talk about cents on the bitcoin?  Likewise for Gsat.  In my own daily life I do this:

I speak of "sats" when I'm in the 1-999 range of Satoshis.

I speak of "Ksat" when I'm in this 1000-99999 range of Satoshis.

I speak of mBTC or 'bitmils' when I'm in the 100000-99999999 range of Satoshi's, ie, for me I'll usually refer to .1btc as 100mBTC. 

Above that, I speak of bitcoins, or BTC.

So I really only use 4 denominations: SAT, KSAT, mBTC, BTC

However, as long as you stick to standard metric prefixes, I can understand whatever you want to say.

I know what you mean about the atomic nature of a bit.  But, just to be specific, in information theory we often subdivide a bit because we're speaking about an average amount of information in a given context.

'Zib' is no-one's trademark: not registered, not common-law.

Its first use in this context was my proposal (https://medium.com/p/681d3dea0093) and creation of the https://zibcoin.org (https://zibcoin.org) site. It's a generic newly-coined word for 'microbitcoin', equally open to all, and as the coiner of the term, I'd fight anyone's attempt to trademark it. The word 'zib' has not been used before for money.

'Zib' can't be easily confused with 'bitcoin' or 'digital bit', directly or as abbreviations ('millibit', 'microbit', 'b'). It will always mean just one amount, 100 satoshis.

If people want to use the words, 'zib' can be combined with the metric-multiplier prefixes - kilozib for 100,000 satoshis, megazib for 100,000,000 satoshis - avoiding the same confusion that would happen with 'kilobit' and 'megabit'.

The 'Ƶ' (Z-with-stroke) symbol has been used for real currencies in the past, or for fake currencies in science-fiction. But so has the '฿' (for thai baht) that's already used and useful for Bitcoin. So multiple past usages for 'Ƶ' (Z-with-stroke) just ensure that (a) it can't be monopolized; and (b) it's naturally understandable as meaning 'advanced future money'.

Sure, 'zib' is unfamiliar like any newly-coined word would be, and it's tempting to just pick something cute and familiar (like 'bit') even if risks long-term confusion. Newer words are hard at first, it's OK not to like it. But please be honest about it!

More confusion. The correct term would be hecto-satoshi.
Cento means 1/100, not 100x

Not centi-satoshi.  centoshi, like century.  (Or is a century 1/100 of a year?)

100 satoshis

"Bits" doesn't really make any sense. I can send you a Bitcoin, a satoshi, or "bits" which is supposed to represent 100 satoshis?!

Centoshi is the best option by far!

You are right.
We should keep centoshi for extra expansion in the future.

100 centoshi is 1 satoshi.

I appreciate you for staying true to the spirit of metric prefixes.  If we ever get to the point of needing to subdivide the satoshi, then I think I will be a rich guy :)

Looks like Bits it is!

Did you even look at the results?  "Bits" is not the first OR second choice of 61.5% of voters.  The majority are opposed to "bits" because "bits" is retarded.

The funniest option in the poll is 'bitcoin'.  That would be pretty confusing:

a: This costs 1 bitcoin.
b: I will send you 100 satoshis
a: No I mean the bigger bitcoin.
b: Oh sorry, in that case I will send you 100000 bitcoins.
a: Yes, that will be fine.

I think you better re-check your math.  As of right now as I write this, 134 people have participated and 197 votes have been cast (not everyone voted twice like you asked).  

Since "bits" has received 76 votes, at least 76 / 134 = 57% of people picked it as their first or second choice.  But not everyone voted twice, so 57% is an underestimate.  

Now, if everyone had voted twice, we would have had 134 x 2 = 268 votes cast.  So if we apply a linear scaling to all the votes, this would suggest that every option would have received 268 / 197 = 1.36 ->36% more votes.  Applying this linear predictor to the "bits" column, gives 76 x 1.36 = 103 votes.  And 103 / 134 = 77% support for bits (as first or second choice) which is consistent with Solex's poll here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=592691.0

It seems "bits" is the clear favourite.  On this poll, many others, Reddit, BitPay, etc.  

Out of a small number of people, driven by campaigners to an out-of-the-way forum.

I'm sure the words 'bits' will see a lot of use. But it also has some major problems in:

• confusing people about the binary-digit bits that give Bitcoin its security – and in a cryptocurrency economy, more people than ever before will need some basic understanding of info-science

• making the core unit seem very imprecise and tiny: "bit-coin" reads as a value of "1/20th-of-a-cent-coin" (dust-like)

• creating confusion with words and 'b'-abbreviations already in use: multiple b-words, and making a B/b uppercase/lowercase distinction, is fragile in communications and commerce

So other words for 100-satoshis will circulate too, more precise and distinctive words, either because they fit into a logical system (like words based on the metric/SI 'micro'/mu/µ modifier), or because they've been chosen for uniqueness of sound and abbreviation (like 'zib'/Ƶ).  

And maybe the other words will prove more useful, to both experts and learners. The real test is usage, not armchair opinions expressed with a click.

the pot calling the kettle black
zib is NOT unique. also Ƶ is ALREADY a currency both in the real world history.. and scifi-movie franchise. it is also used in games as game credits.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_with_stroke#As_currency

so please there are only you and maybe 3 people that are proper zib fanboys and you are all collectively trying to get your 'product' noticed. yes you have a website and you are trying to be the lead players in the copyright of zib... i know you see a future where you charge a licence for business or software engineer using your word..

please understand we see through your weak theory of the uniqueness of 'zib' and we all are trying to ignore your attempts at promoting such a flaw.

with that said i do see your passion, but maybe you can put your personal greed and future plans aside and do something constructive that actually falls within the consensus of the community. rather then just you and your 3 friends little 'brand'

as for talking about 'bit' being confusing in regards to an 8th of a byte...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebibyte
Zib is also a measure of binary!!!

I couldn't agree more.  Especially your last point about the fact that this is living communication system: the right answer will be determined by everyday usage, not a poll :)

From the poll:

Total Voters: 141

Nope, not a mandate.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

BTW, a bit is twelve-and-a-half cents, 'murkin.

It's 'zib' the word (not the Ƶ/Z) that is a unique for a currency unit.

I've mentioned the other prior uses of 'Ƶ' (Z-with-stroke), so I'm not sure why you consider that some discovery.

'Ƶ' is used by no current real-world currency. That's already a clearer field than the '฿' (thai baht) symbol already popular for Bitcoin use. Still, that's not much of a problem; multiple currencies can use the same hinting-characters – many, many currencies use '$'.

What is a problem is relying on subtle B/b, ฿/ƀ distinctions to distinguish amounts – some languages don't even have the concept of upper/lowercase, and some people have already used lowercase 'b' as a Bitcoin-signifier (either alone or with the 'ⓑ' character).

Use in science-fiction for galactic currencies is a good sign. It proves people naturally understand 'Ƶ' as symbolizing a futuristic, high-tech currency.


'Zib' is a completely generic term for microbitcoin (100 satoshis) that I made up about 6 weeks ago, owned by no one, open to all. There are no copyrights/trademarks, existing or planned, to my knowledge. Like other spontaneously evolving words, 'zib' is in the pure public domain.

It's offered as a well-matched solution to a language/labeling problem, better in some important ways than the alternatives. That's all.


There are now 3 people promoting it? That's awesome, I started as just one. Trend looks good. ZIB to the moon, and into the dictionary!

I don't know any way I'd make money from 'zib' being widely used as the precise term for 100 satoshis. (You must be more clever at devious ways of making money than I am.)


Um, 'Zebi' is not the same word as 'zib'. That's also an obscure gigantic unit that, even under very optimistic projections, might never enter common use.

On the other hand, 'bit' as binary digit, a fundamental unit of information, is the central idea 20th-century/21st-century informational and computational science. Bitcoin only succeeds because of a series of breakthroughs in the science of bits, and the computers and networks that rely on them. To meet the future challenges, of scaling and security-against-centralization, even more innovation by people who deeply understand bits will be necessary.

The bit is so important, Satoshi Nakamoto named his brilliant invention after it. So you shouldn't erase or obscure that homage by retroactively redefining 'bit' to mean something else.

It seems to me that there is broad support for the new unit being 10^-6 ฿ and for the name of this unit to be "bits."  I think the symbol for this new unit is still up in the air.  I personally support ƀ, but I am also open to u฿, μ฿, and μ and probably others.

I'm re-posting this, because I want to hear more opinions about it:


It's not my favourite actually, but if no consensus can be reached otherwise, I would go with this compromise.

Now you opened the thread asking for a name for 100 Satoshi without explaining what "100 Satoshi" actually is and still everyone understood what you mean.

This proves that there is no need to call it something else since everyone knows what it is.

Centoshi is better. Sounds different and unique from Bitcoin. The other choices are dull and lame.

I don't think

That last time I looked at it (and it's been awhile so my math memory if fuzzy), if you assume bitcoin becomes a global reserve currency and replaces all national currencies, then the amount/value of 100 satoshis roughly equaled the amount/value of currencies today at current US dollar exchange rates and purchasing power. Or something a little closer to what a dollar bought several decades ago.

So my vote is for:

100 satoshis = a dollar
1 satoshi = a cent

Whether or not this pans out, it makes me smile when I look at my wallet balance in uBTC units.

If we do change, make sure we do it right. I don't think we'll be able to shift back and forth more than once or twice at most.

Lol, I don't reply...


This reply is nearly as cryptic as the "I don't think remark".  People have to remember that there's no central authority which will issue a "name change", any number of times.  This thread is merely about a nickname.  Don't canadian's call those dollar coins with the Loon on them "loonies"?  And the two dollar coins "twovies"?  Simiarly, here, we are simply discussing a nickname.

I think it is the worst possible proposal.

If I have 1,000,000 ug I have a gram.
If I have 1,000,000 uL I have a Liter.
If I have 1,000,000 um I have a meter.

If I have 1,000,000 uBits does that mean I have a bit?

What is a bit?  A bit is a Bitcoin?  Then why are we calling a uBit a bit?  A bit is both a microbitcoin and a bitcoin?  How is that possible.  Is it a recursive function?   

The colloquial for a one microbitcoin (uBTC) is a bit.  Using a SI prefix for something which isn't the base * the SI prefix multiplier is just insane.  It would be like saying 1,000,000 ugrams = a pound.

FTFY. I get your point, however, and I agree.

I fixed it the other way (using the micro prefix) but thanks for correcting it.