Bitcoin Forum

 
http://s018.radikal.ru/i513/1201/b8/ecc705713740.jpg

nice work!

I had my BUY bids sitting at 5.05 and I only got partially filled even though the Bitcoinica ask price was under 5.00 for a little while.  I'll leave it there but there's no point in chasing it at 5.63

So you guys are causing this wild fluctuation I'm seeing today?  Good work.

So you are in large part to blame for the crash. 17k bitcoin leveraged 10:1 = 170k on the market = crash

Your a leech on the bitcoin economy and I hope you get liquidated.

Force liquidated or not at some point he's going to be buying those coins back.

All shorting does, with leverage or not, is allow individuals to sell before they buy instead of the normal buying before selling.

I have been waiting to buy large amounts of bitcoins < 5.50.  Now I have my chance. 

Uh, he actually has $13k in "real money" in there, not 17k bitcoins. And wow, that's some strong language. Care to explain how it's leeching?

The most amazing thing is even I could have done this and plenty of other people easily could have too.  $13k isn't that much money to risk to profitably cause this kind of market trauma.  This guy did it, he made a lot of cash, and the entire bitcoin community and project is worse off for it.  Well done.

He really didn't "do it" himself. I know someone whose bitcoinica short was significantly larger than this and who made even more than this guy, and his orders had almost no visible effect on mtgox. I'd imagine it was several people like this who led to bitcoinica finally passing the trades through to mtgox, plus probably some people trading directly on mtgox.

Look at the order its 17k BTC. Unless I am understanding it incorrectly bitcoinica only operates in BTC so that 17k is that. When you go to close your position the the profit or loss on the right is multiplied by your leverage. He is leeching because he is just doing this to make money (steal money from bitcoin users). I would disagree however if he took this money and reinvested as bitcoin but something tells me that this user is not that type of a person.

With all due respect, I don't think you quite understand how it works.

Well then it worked incorrectly when i tried it with the $0.70 worth of codes Zhoutong gave the other day. I tried both short and long and this is exactly how it worked when I did it (profit/loss multiplied by leverage)

I wouldn't blame the people who made this happen, it's just as much if not more the fault of the people who lost their money going long leveraged at Bitcoinica because of the Good Wife episode. The sharks simply took advantage of this and profited. I hope people learn from this and understand that it doesn't require a fortune to do this in the Bitcoin market. This will always be possible in the future, be very careful when doing anything leveraged.

Orders seem to be crossing over.

I've had open orders to buy on Bitcoinica at 5.75 and 5.70.  They have been sitting there for about 10 minutes.

the 5.70 buy filled, and the 5.75 did NOT fill.  WTF Zhou?  why are orders crossing over my bids?

You probably just misunderstood it then. It's never behaved like that.

This still could very well have been Zhoutong himself. I don't agree with doing anything leveraged, especially when there the books where it is being done are closed except to one person. I think people have way too much trust in a 17 year old.

I think introducing leverage at this point in the life of bitcoin is/was a very bad idea.

Bitcoinica is turning me back into a long-term bear.  The fact that this will always be possible with bitcoinica is a good reason not to trust bitcoin as a good medium of exchange or store of value.  Newcomers to bitcoin should understand this, and I think if they do, they probably won't jump in.

+1.  I think the community managed to overcome the hacking and insecurity that plagued the project's infrastructure, I don't know how this hurdle can be overcome.

Yes, but the same thing is possible in reverse by squeezing shorts. The * is at the sell side now. By your logic, you should be neither bear nor bull, and be just in fiat and leave Bitcoin alone completely.

If there is no shorting then I expect another rally very shortly and we could even break the $8 barrier in a matter of minutes like we broke $5 on the way down. I have noticed the pattern when bitcoinica will not let people open a position in one direction, the market moves in the other. This is why I suspect Zhoutong may not be completely honest and why I don't know anyone would trade on margin there.

I wouldn't make a bigger deal out of this than it has to be. If Bitcoinica is the problem, STOP USING IT. I don't use it and I never will. Advice new people coming into Bitcoin to not use it. Bitcoinica can't have a massive effect without suckers causing the effect!

This will be a learning process for everyone, we need to get more serious about Bitcoinica. It's not something to be played with, it's serious.

Actually I don't use bitcoinica because I dont believe in leverage.

You sure are one to talk about being leveraged since you yourself were at 10:1. I really hope you lose your 20K because that will teach you not to leverage yourself.

wat.

Leverage is borrowing to make additional profit in either direction. Most rational individuals consider borrowing a reasonable activity if you can use the borrowed money to make more money than your borrowing costs. Companies borrow to build new infrastructure and thus to make themselves more profitable.

Leveraged trades on bitcoinica or any real trading platform carry massive risk of the market going the wrong way and causing forced liquidation. The guy took a big risk and made a big profit from it. The idea is just taking standard investment practice and magnifying it a bit, magnifying the risk along with it. If someone is risk-tolerant, they might do this. If they're risk-averse, they might not. I don't see how it makes sense to be against it on principle, and don't understand why you feel such animosity against people who aren't against it.

Witnessed.

I couldn’t agree more with you, proudhon.

We have to remember that Bitcoinica only exists because people apparently have a demand for giving zhoutong all their money because they are trading a highly volatile asset with high leverage and killed by the spikes.

I cannot comprehend the stupidity people are displaying, and that’s after a ~95% decline in value over 6 months – might have thought people would learn some caution.

Yea your numbers are off there buddy.

Yeah, especially when people who don't know how markets work insist on having opinions on them anyway.

Hell, I’m almost enclined to believe this has to be a concerted effort by some entities who dislike Bitcoin. It’s incredible how there is always a huge problem leading to wide and severe trust issues with Bitcoin.

I'm not even talking about opinions on the direction the market is heading, because those are pretty hard to be sure about. I'm talking about basic mechanics of how trading on a margin works, for example (i.e., someone is lending you the coins you're trading on a margin; it happens on bitcoinica and it's been happening OTC for a lot longer than that).

Man isn't the free market beautiful :D

I see nothing wrong with Bitcoinica, no one who didn't gamble lost anything, it was all on a voluntary basis which is the most important part.

As far as price stability of Bitcoin, I again see nothing wrong with it fluctuating. It's precisely because Bitcoinca exist that people can easily hedge and avert any severe loses for a small price. All this whining is just kids betting and losing, booohooo.  ::)

It's possible both ways, and will even out in the long term.

What brought us down also brought us up to $7.22...

I’m against leverage with Bitcoin because it is nonsensical to use margin on a highly volatile asset, though it will sort itself out because the gamblers will keep giving their money to zhoutong.

I think the spring/summer runup was justified to a certain point because the community did quickly expand at the time and the huge growth is still visible now. ~500-700% growth from April’s 1 USD is quite possible, yes.

What I meant to say is that it’s weird that Bitcoin is plagued non-stop with such fiascos, and in my opinion at the very least the MtGox incident wasn’t profit-oriented. We know that the attacker allocated himself all Bitcoins on MtGox via admin account, then sold them all off, creating the crash to $0.01. He couldn’t withdraw all his cash due to the limit. I don’t think a profit-seeking hacker would plan that badly. It’s also way easier, quicker and safer to withdraw the Bitcoins. IMO the perpetrator was more interested in creating charts like this one: http://blog.asymptotic.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Bitcoin_crash_2011-06-19.png

Then followed a myriad of scams and hacks like MyBitcoin, several exchanges, allinvain etc. which undermined trust and further damaged Bitcoin’s reputation.

You lose your money yet? That would just be grand!

On bitcoinica we're all a pack of hyenas fighting each other over someone else's kill, I was one of those liquidated by the OP to the tune of 200$ (a decent amount for me) but whatever I guess that's the risk you take when you get greedy and overleverage yourself.  Remember these price swings only hurt the dumb hyenas (speculators), not the people using btc as a medium of exchange, which is the important part for bitcoins success.

$7 at your leverage would liquidate you and then you have 0

Price at $6.95 so the short is already in negative.  Can't close it for a profit, assuming the screenshot is even legit.

i'd be surprised if he hadn't liquidated already.

It would just be so awesome if he hadn't. With so much money bet against bitcoin I would like to see him lose it all.

yeah i was liquidated.

pip in pip. nice shot zhoutong. second time you manipulate the market, first time you gave me spread refund for your games.

he thinks he can get away from this crime

that's what you get for bragging on the forums ;D

nice fucking job mate. 

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ;D

OH THE IRONY :D

As a wise friend of mine said when he learned of this:

1st post: BITCOINICA IS AWESOME
last post: zhou is a criminal

lol@playing with fire and getting burnt, can't believe you didn't liquidate.

The order book looked convincing that we werent going to see $7 any time soon so he probably figured he had time to cancel his order. Even if he was rapidly clicking liquidate during this it wouldnt make one bit of difference because the site wouldnt be able to liquidate his position in time. Hopefully an expensive lesson learned. Next time buy and sell the coins directly without leverage and you will never have 0.

Never would've been able to liquidate at a profit.  The ask depth wasnt there.

This thread is beautiful.

Serves you right, you greedy piece of shit.

Are you still in perma bear mode or have you come back to the bull side?

My head is spinning.

Screenshot of the calamity for completion! At least rejoin the herd in humility...lots of people lost today.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL AHHAHAHAHAHAAH I love the free market :D

There is no real liquidating on the graph, look at the volumes, i have 20 000 short possition.

the total volume on the "liquidating candle" was 20 000. So there is no real liquidation. bitcoinica didnt liquidate my possition. they need 20 000btc to buy up to 7.0
but where is another 20 000? to liquidate ?

Post of the day IMHO.

Posting in epic thread.

This is already one candidate for thread of the year... absolutely priceless.

This is can be funny, i dont care about money.
but this is a cime, and people who do the crime should  go to jail.


this is the screen with volume of the trade which liquidated me.
there is just 20 000 volume.
exactly what you need to move price to 7.0
http://i067.radikal.ru/1201/36/a85306304b97.jpg


If i was liquidated, where is another 20 000?


the same situations was here

Possition : http://s018.radikal.ru/i504/1201/ad/703990124536.png
Liquidation (point in point) at 6.75 +spread 3 = 6.78 look at the price...
http://s017.radikal.ru/i439/1201/14/d129ee09c346.png

Real liquidation :
http://s018.radikal.ru/i527/1201/db/76ac96c0dbfd.png

what do you think now ?

this guy is an offender. Tommorow i go to police.

Who has the same situation please contact me.

I lost a bunch of money on my big bet?! It can't be my fault for taking a big risk, it's definitely the exchange's fault. POLICE!

Oh this is rich, the cops aren't going to do a damn thing and will probably just laugh at you. Cops barely show up to violent crimes let alone white collar ones if thats what this is. It might not have hit the market because Zhoutong has said many times that a lot of the trading is done inside bitcoinica there and many orders never see gox. I am of the theory that this could be zhoutong but I find your post just amusing. This is what you get for trusting your money to a 17 year old in Thailand.

Next time... you should have sold everything, book profit, then blog and brag about it.  Money in the bank first, my man.

Police? Way to take it like a man.

Not enough depth to cash out and remain profitable.

Yes, it can be very funny. I am pretty pissed about losing all my money because of you, but cannot stop laughing at this post.

So, does this mean that an unfettered free market can withstand and destroy cheesy trading games?!?!

hip, hip hooray!

-EP

You need proof of a crime before anyone will believe you. The screenshot you showed could have been done by anyone with a bitcoinica account (not just Zhourtang) that saw your original post and worked out exactly what they needed to buy up to to force you into liquidation. It's your own fault for bragging, and posting details that any lurker could take advantage of.

wow  :D

Also Zhoutong is in Singapore so unless you are there only Interpol can do something and I wouldn't be counting on that any time soon. As I said many orders never see the light of day on MTGox and this is what allows him to charge such low fees. As someone else said you have no proof and probably have yourself to blame for bragging.

I'm all for shorting and leverage, unlike most people here. I'm also not cheering at your loss, unlike most people here, because it sucks and I'm sorry. But dude, there are other wealthy people on these forums. If you post information showing exactly the parameters it would take to screw you, people are going to take advantage of you. It's not impossible that foul play could be involved, but seriously, Ockham's Razor. As people on IRC are saying, you showed your poker hand early and someone fucked you for it.

A crime how, exactly? You do know what a bucket shop is, right? And you know why they aren't allowed in a regulated market?

Will the internet investigate? Where will he be jailed, or do you plan to have him digitized and encrypted in a flash drive?

This is most probably exactly what happened. Normally people post the P/L% of the P/L$ only, but putting all that info on THE bitcoin forum was simply a dumb move. The person who liquidated you will one day reveal himself and we will all make him a local hero.

-Mike

I learned this last spike (a week or two ago?) with 1 BTC invested on Bitcoinica.  I guess that was a cheap lesson!  


Mostly due to the spread, not the leverage, Bitcoinica is a pretty bad deal.  I recommend to stay away.  MTGOX is a bargain compared to Bitcoinica with just a .5 % fee (per side).  

You add the immediate loss due to the spread, plus a little leverage and you are liquidated on pretty mild price swings.  Almost everyone using real leverage will be liquidated on the bigger swings.  

The volume before and after the crash looks fairly balanced to me:

https://ferroh.com/chart?t=24h

Notice that the heatmap shows the sum of volume over a wider period. Bar volume charts can have one large bar surrounded by several small ones, but in this case we are interested in the average of the volume over a period longer than just one bar.

At that time, all trades were delayed, including Bitcoinica's.

Your liquidation was piled up in the system and partially hedged a few minutes later. At the same time, there were a lot of sell orders at Bitcoinica too, so both are balanced.

We disclose how we hedge and the volume of our Mt. Gox account on home page (updated every 5 minutes). You can check that out and see if your order hedged, and/or internally matched.

There's no fraud that I can see.  it's called "stop hunting"   Google it

I had some BUY orders down there at 5.05 and i got partially filled at 5.03.  It's trading.  you have to read the charts and obey your stops.

I'm still trying to figure out why he posted screenshots of his position without understanding the fallout that could result for him in such a thin market.

If people are made aware that you're 10:1 in any direction, and they know your base price and level of exposure, it's simple maths to take advantage given that they have the resources to go against your position enough to liquidate you. In this case that appears to be what happened.

Definition of 'Stop Hunting'
A strategy that attempts to force some market participants out of their positions by driving the price of an asset to a level where many individuals have chosen to set their stop-loss orders. The triggering of many stop losses generally leads to high volatility and can present a unique opportunity for investors who seek to trade in this environment.

The main thing is - if this is not zhoutong, what could this XMAN earn from this trade?
he just liquidate me virtually. No trades on mtgox.

But who's got interest in this trade?


Liquidation trade was made on mtgox, so the only one reason to make profits is to put 20 000 order for sell at 6.99 and buy until 6.98 (to liquidate me and take profits at 6.99)
this didnt happen.

May be in equador police do nothing about this. but here this is a crime.

Is anyone here was liquidated right point in point ? please contact me.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Bucket_shop_%28stock_market%29

for christ's sake...

I guess next time dont brag about how much money you made, er.. lost ;)

Who were interested in this liquidation? nobody would buy 20 000BTC just for fun, and nobody could get profit from this trade except..... right.. bitcoinica.

You must be new here.

I am 7 years in trading, I know who make profits and how.
this trade may be profitable only for bitcoinica.

7year trading and you have the nerve to come boasting here with screenshots of how much profit you made ? hahahaha wtfever :)

Btw I know traders still trying to make a buck after 30years trading ;)

Give it up man you aren't going to win this one. He even had the decency to come on here and tell you how it works. I love how at the beginning of the thread you are so happy you made money off bitcoinica and you posted your position to this website.

I reposted it in the speculation thread questioning if you were the "manipulator". Someone saw your position likely from my thread and thought they would wipe that smile right off your face. Also the fact I said manipulator probably made someone very spiteful to the point they wanted to take you out.

You got ZhouTonged! Suck it up!  ;D

Mt. Gox was delayed at that time. So it's not a virtual liquidation at all. Ask anyone on IRC because I was talking to them during the market spike. I didn't know anything about this until the price suddenly turns 6.95.

Do you always display your positions publicly online when trading?

http://ebooks.gutenberg.us/WorldeBookLibrary.com/confessstock.htm

Standard practice for 7 year veterans.  6 year veterans not so much.

Hey, FUCK YOU!!
that is all.

Trading what?  Most traders I know don't know shit about trading something as volatile as this.  Reading through, people appear to not understand how futures and options work, and now they are learning, are annoyed at their own ignorance.

Still reading the thread, but had to jump in here... the MtGox fiasco was profit-oriented.  At the time, the only limit on withdrawals was a USD limit and the BTC limit was USD limit/bitcoin price.  They dropped it to 0.01 so they could withdrawal 100k BTC.

Best said.


Most allowed.

We are with you Nick, don't give up and learn!

I did need to put it here in case of this man wonn't let me to withdraw.
but he solve the problem of withdrawal by another way.

Anybody with enough money could have calculated your force-liquidation price and profited from it.  You may want to walk away from this and cool off before you make any more of a fool of yourself.

I'm not sure that's possible.

Which part... I calculated it before I even moved on to the second post.

As for profiting, remember, after you hit his forced liquidation price, he has to buy 17k BTC.  Sure, it may not have been possible when he posted it, but there was a quick rebound and the window was wide open.

Sorry OP, i have to admit i got a big chunk of your money.

I love this forum so far. I never mine yet make tons of cash from trading.

Congrats and thank you. Did you do this because of my thread or the one he started?

Remember to tune into BitTalk.TV with an interview with Bitcoinica founder Zhou Tong https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=57212.0