Bitcoin Forum

BITCOIN doesn't care about states .its wordwide currency used everywhere. To regulate it and tax it u need wordwide government right ?

Not really. Each government will have their own ways of dealing and regulating it. Most will just tax it when you exchange it for fiat cash and/or buy things with it and take their cut that way.

govts cant tax it unless people willingly provide info on their bitcoin spending or holdings
just like how the illegal irs works
if your work did not provide your income to the irs the irs would not know how much to tax you

irs is anti-constitutional which makes it illegal
the publics ignorance makes them pay the irs due to threats from the govt and following other people who are clueless
if you agree to random rules then you are bound to them, this is color of law

Taxing Bitcoin is not a easy thing for GOVERNMENT to do.

There is no real way to do it. The only time they can touch it is when it converts to fiat. I will certainly not voluntarily disclose my holdings to anyone, let alone to any government or international looting organization. 

Whos the world wide government? The Illuminati? I dont see how there needs to be one entity controlling it the taxation/regulation of it.

The UN or IMF I suppose. I will not comply with either.

You cant hide, any government will tax you once you convert to fiat or buy directly goods/services with Bitcoin.

Don't think that is really possible ATM.   What you are talking about is basically the New World Order that conspiracy theorists have been babbling about for years...

They have also been talking about a universal one world currency (which coincidentally fits the description of BTC).

Yes, taxing bitcoins will be a hard challenge for the State, especially if bitcoin becomes mainstream.

But since individuals and their property are still on the territory of a state, I don't think they need to cooperate more than they already do, they will just need to control more closely our use of the Internet, including the sending of bitcoins.

It will take some years, but when they start to feel the hit of tax evasion, they will act.

I think you are misguided.  Once BTC gets big enough, it will be easy for the state to takeover.  Your identity will be tied to your wallet and
you will be automatically and instantly taxed. The coming consumption tax as explained by Jon Matonis and others.  Based on what Marc Andressen has said, expect this in 2016.

The US Government is laying the groundwork for this right now:
"New Massive Federal Database to Hold Financial Information on Hundreds of Millions of Americans"
http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2014/05/30/new-massive-federal-database-to-hold-financial-information-on-hundreds-of-millions-of-americans/ (http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2014/05/30/new-massive-federal-database-to-hold-financial-information-on-hundreds-of-millions-of-americans/)

The good news is...we are likely going to 10k in 2016!

It's easier to control hundred of millions users than one million and it will be very easy to link every person to his wallet?... sure, when everyone can create several wallets, especially, with the new anonymous developments, like in darkcoin, that soon or later will be incorporated in bitcoin.

As much as governments love to tax their citizens, I think they know that at this point it would be too costly and they would have to devote too many resources vs. the amount of tax revenues that they will actually get from cryptos so far.   

As market caps rise, so will the pressure for taxes. 

Darkcoin will never be incorporated in bitcoin.  We already know the bitcoin foundation is working hand in hand with the state.  
Once btc crosses 3k that will be all the excuse state needs to insist all wallets tied to id.  

FACTA comes into effect July 1st 2014.
http://americansabroad.org/issues/fatca/fatca-bad-america-why-it-should-be-repealed/ (http://americansabroad.org/issues/fatca/fatca-bad-america-why-it-should-be-repealed/)
FATCA Explained in 4 Minutes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-EVF7CZt_w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-EVF7CZt_w)
July 1st 2014 "FACTA" Bill will help Destroy Dollar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hTIoSEnk5Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hTIoSEnk5Q)

they can't tax it directly, so until you don't convert, your are safe


no you can't do that, ever, i can create infinite wallets with infinite addresses, good luck tracking them all, when i'm using proxy and other shit to hide my identity, it's virtually impossible

also Bitcoin is aiming to anon too, via sidechain

Well I think it will become law with harsh penalties and retroactive.

It's insanely hard to tax a currency you can't seize.

They can trace the transactions and possibly find out which address belongs to whom, but actually forcing them to pay up will be next to impossible.

Of course they can threaten with jail, but they'd have to prove they know which owner the wallet belongs to, and to prove it they have to admit they have been spying on us on a large scale and that may trigger revolts.

Also, if taxes are too high and the government refuses to do things for society (like they are doing now already, increase taxes all around and cutting spending all around at the same time) they might not be able to find enough co-operation to even finance the police and/or the army anymore. And then they will have nothing on us anymore.

Those are very interesting points you have made on multiple levels.  

However I think you are underestimating.  None of us possess bitcoins or any other crypto currency unlike cash or gold can hold in your hand.  We do not own anything, we simply have keys that let us use bitcoins, everything is in the blockchain.  

We already know NSA has been spying on everyone for years.  They know who I am through my IP address.

So imagine this scenario:  Bitcoin becomes centralized, which it clearly can be and pretty easily, ie > 51%, something catastrophic happens, state steps up and says we need to take control of this monster or offers alternative and takes over blockchain for "the good of the people."   Now can impose forfeiture and will all be voluntary.  Rescue me.

Paragraph above pure speculation.  

However, I do think ultimate intent is to take control of blockchain.  How this will be done I do not know and can only speculate.  

This i am convinced of, states want to move society to blockchain.  Surrender all assets to the blockchain.  This will enable consumption tax, asset tracking etc.  Logical step before hand would be taking full control of blockchain which will give society (the masses) total confidence in blockchain aka the state.

I think this is massive social engineering to get people to voluntarily abandon debt based fiat currency and give states more power and control.  

Carrot and stick.  Bitcoin and blockchain will enable X but also enable states to do Y.

I also think this is a long term project...

One way to tax bitcoin will be to require ISPs to track Internet access and bitcoin transactions. But many people will always find a way to access their wallets anonymously.

But you can rest assure that states will find a way to tax the major part of its residents for bitcoin transactions if they start to see their financial situation in danger because of tax evasion, if bitcoin goes mainstream.

But it won't be easy and massive adoption will make it even harder.

world govt cant control or tax it unless you report yourself your bitcoin income/accounts

To do a 51% they'd need to buy up a LOT of miners, possibly from different manufacturers. As i doubt any manufacturer has enough capacity to create enough miners to d a 51% attack. Even if they do, they'd be pretty stupid if they'd sell all their miners to a single person or entity.

Also yes we know the NSA is spying on us, but people tend to be pretty passive when "it does not directly harm" them personally. But when their money is involved, it will be another thing entirely. Also, can't you hide your IP behind TOR and keep hiding your addresses by using a new address each time and possibly even mixing coins when you make transactions? And where possible buy coins with cash, or thngs like paysafecards or itunes cards or other forms of hard to trace 'money'. That would make it pretty damn hard to trace who is holding the coins.

Of course they could make their own chip manifacturer, but i doubt that would be pretty far-fetched, wouldnt it?

As bitcoin is not centrally organized and particular government could regulate the way they like it to.

then if i want to evade some form of regulation i just change country, really stupid

I don't think this would work. It is not hard to mask what sites/services that you are connecting to from your ISP. You could use TOR, and/or a VPN to achieve this for virtually nothing. Also once the government were to know about a BTC transaction they would have little way to force you to pay taxes on it because it is not possible for someone to sign a TX without access to the private keys.

It's a lossing game if they want to regulate Bitcoin and apply taxes to items bought directly with BTC. They will literally go nuts trying to keep up with the pace. It is an objective waste of resources. Bitcoin will remain tax free for life, thats a fact.

No. The government only need to stop all the banks from servicing bitcoin related business and ban international wire from certain bank to regulate bitcoin.

Some people over-estimate bitcoin and think it can survive traditional banking. It can't.

In before talk of the New World Order... However for some reason I cannot picture George Bush Sr, or people of his generation, using Bitcoin.

I would disagree. Bitcoin will likely be treated the same way that fiat is treated when it comes to taxes. If someone needs to pay sales tax on something when they pay with fiat, they will need to pay the same sales tax when they pay in bitcoin. If a retailer were to not collect this sales tax then they would be risking more then it is worth to risk.

I agree. Indirect taxes like sales tax / value added tax will be collected.
Direct taxes like income tax (miners) and capital gains tax (investors) will be a little harder to collect.

Problem is most miners are losing big time and have negative profit. For trader, only the really good one make money while majority of them lose big time.

That would be real pain in ass for a government to perform such a task.I mean whom you are gonna tax when you don't know until the person himself asks to be taxed

They will most probably set up information systems at all the exchanges... So that some of the money trail can be traced.

If a miner were to lose money on their equipment then they could take a tax deduction. I don't see how this is a problem. This is no different then any other investment.

They will try to tax it. They try to steal money from everywhere. But in this case it'll be quite difficult for them. They have to try to convince people that using bitcoins isn't ethical, that it's related with terrorism, and bullshit like that.

They will try and tax people wherever bitcoin enters the 'real' economy.

It isn't exactly hard to tax bitcoin transaction once people start using it.

A simple audit or send an auditor over to where the business operate will do.

Simple? If you buy and sell with bitcoins and there aren't any invoice, it isn't that easy to find the transactions, unless you know the addresses being used.

Most larger businesses will keep an audit-able set of books to be able to detect and prevent employee theft and fraud (as well as for internal control purposes). The government could easily look at these books and make sure the proper amount of taxes are being paid.

LOL: This doesn't make sense. Worldwide regulation would need insane amounts of effort and collaboration, is just unrealistic.