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Bitcoin => Bitcoin Discussion => Topic started by: grondilu on April 22, 2011, 09:53:21 PM



Title: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 22, 2011, 09:53:21 PM
Haven't watched the whole video yet but I predict discussing it is going to be fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoK8HXMSsNg

Edit.  Ok, watched it all.  My quick answer:

Bitcoin is a decentralised accounting tool (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2866.0).  It is pretty much as useless as a pen and a piece of paper are.  Which means it is not.  A pen and a paper is useless only for someone who can't write.  Or for someone who can write, but in a world where nobody else can.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on April 22, 2011, 10:18:13 PM

This is is some kind of reverse psychology trick isn't it .... I'm gonna go and buy some more btc right now!


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: mizerydearia on April 22, 2011, 10:19:05 PM
http://weusecarrots.com/


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: kiba on April 22, 2011, 10:19:43 PM
It is likely that individual in the video is affiliated with federal reserve company or any other party supportive of us dollar and continued enslavement of society

Or he's just brainwashed/didn't know better/have bad misconception of economics.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 22, 2011, 10:20:06 PM
It is likely that individual in the video is affiliated with federal reserve company or any other party supportive of us dollar and continued enslavement of society

My guess is that he is just an economics student.

I also suspect he doesn't know anything about austrian economists.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: granrojo on April 22, 2011, 10:23:10 PM
I got far enough to find out that bitcoin is not a vegetable and therefore cannot possibly be a currency.

So I'm selling all my bitcoins and buying carrots, hopefully they'll still be worth something in a few years, I'll keep them in the fridge so should be ok!

Couldn't be bothered to watch the rest, but I'm sure it's brilliant.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: JohnDoe on April 22, 2011, 10:24:39 PM
My guess is that he is just an economics student.

My guess too. Funny how economists seem to be the ones who know least about economics.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 22, 2011, 10:25:21 PM
So I'm selling all my bitcoins and buying carrots, hopefully they'll still be worth something in a few years, I'll keep them in the fridge so should be ok!

 ;D

I told you this thread could be fun!


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Scarecrow on April 22, 2011, 10:39:42 PM
Experts in economics have got the world economy into the mess its in today. "All I am saying, is give geeks a chance."


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: mizerydearia on April 22, 2011, 10:41:03 PM
http://i.imgur.com/NljV7.png
http://i.imgur.com/1Af33.png


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: kiba on April 22, 2011, 10:41:24 PM
My guess too. Funny how economists seem to be the ones who know least about economics.

Macroeconomic is junk and microeconomic is sound. The problem is, they use macroeconomic to study macroeconomic, instead of microeconomics.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: mizerydearia on April 22, 2011, 11:12:15 PM
http://i.imgur.com/RMHNh.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/c2sXE.jpg)


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: fsargent on April 22, 2011, 11:15:39 PM
Speaking as someone who's got a bachelors in economics (which isn't very much admittedly):
This guy has no idea what he's talking about. He's absolutely terrible. Not only is he a bad speaker, his criticisms are totally baseless.
Bitcoin has flaws. The flaws he cites aren't them.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: JohnDoe on April 22, 2011, 11:25:06 PM
Speaking as someone who's got a bachelors in economics...

lol, my claim is proven. How can someone get a degree in economics and not know anything about time preference?


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 22, 2011, 11:28:42 PM
improving miserydaeria's picture:

http://grondilu.freeshell.org/dontbuybitcoins.jpg

I know this is not cool, but it's so fun  :D


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: PHPAdam on April 22, 2011, 11:34:53 PM
His argument is that Bitcoins can only be bought for £1 and sold on for £2 who sells it on for £3. Thats a limited view we are seeing more and more services/goods that can be traded for Bitcoins making his initial argument void.

The second point he raises is that USD/GBP/EUR is legal tender - As far as I am aware Bitcoin is not illegal tender. The argument also falls is that currency don't tend to have a long lifespan and die or are replaced (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_currency_union). I remember having to trade in my old £20 notes after them becoming void and grandparents talking about Old money such as shilling, half a crown or a guinea.

P.S. Mocking sceptics does not win the argument. Even if he says he sells tickets to read peoples future.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: goatpig on April 22, 2011, 11:37:48 PM
I don't understand the need people have to just hate on new things...


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: BitterTea on April 22, 2011, 11:42:13 PM

I haven't watched the video yet, but is that an upside-down Voluntaryist logo I see?

http://images6.cpcache.com/product/voluntaryist-voluntaryism-voluntary/204076436v2_225x225_Front.jpg


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 22, 2011, 11:47:30 PM
A more serious argument I could make about his "legal tender" point.

Law is not something that people are supposed to withstand.  It's not some superior force that people must blindlessly obey.  Law is something that is supposed to be decided by society.

The dollar existed before it was recognised by law.  I think it derives from a silver coin called Thaler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaler).  Its usage became so popular that eventually law makers decided to make it the official money.

There is no reason why bitcoin could not have the same destiny.  As more and more people use it as they realise it is a more efficient intermediate for exchange, at some point they will have law makers turn it into an "official" money.  I don't say it is something I hope for (I don't).  I say it is possible, and if it was to happen, then bitcoin would essentially replace the dollar.



Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: PHPAdam on April 22, 2011, 11:48:45 PM
is that an upside-down Voluntaryist logo I see?
Yes the guys profile says he owns http://www.vforvoluntary.com/

I wont pretend to understand his view, but it sounds like he supports gold as a currency not others:
Quote from: vforvoluntary
The colors of the symbol are yellow (or gold) and black. Yellow is a reference to gold, which was the market chosen money. So it’s a reference to free market money, and by extension the free market and capitalism. Black is a reference to anarchy. Anarchy, or an-archy, means no rulers.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 22, 2011, 11:51:14 PM
is that an upside-down Voluntaryist logo I see?
Yes the guys profile says he owns http://www.vforvoluntary.com/

WTF!?

The guy is volontarist and yet he thinks money should be decided and enforced by law?

I don't get it.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: mewantsbitcoins on April 22, 2011, 11:55:32 PM
The way he talks resembles a priest lecture. Anyway, he's an idiot and has no idea what he's talking about. Just leave him be


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: mizerydearia on April 23, 2011, 12:37:41 AM
The way he talks resembles a priest lecture. Anyway, he's an idiot and has no idea what he's talking about. Just leave him be

http://i.imgur.com/H1iNL.jpg

A (http://i.imgur.com/CpYL9.jpg) l (http://i.imgur.com/ztaPV.jpg) s (http://i.imgur.com/xT85d.jpg) o (http://i.imgur.com/OF0xL.jpg)


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: goatpig on April 23, 2011, 12:50:08 AM
A more serious argument I could make about his "legal tender" point.

Law is not something that people are supposed to withstand.  It's not some superior force that people must blindlessly obey.  Law is something that is supposed to be decided by society.

The dollar existed before it was recognised by law.  I think it derives from a silver coin called Thaler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaler).  Its usage became so popular that eventually law makers decided to make it the official money.

There is no reason why bitcoin could not have the same destiny.  As more and more people use it as they realise it is a more efficient intermediate for exchange, at some point they will have law makers turn it into an "official" money.  I don't say it is something I hope for (I don't).  I say it is possible, and if it was to happen, then bitcoin would essentially replace the dollar.



Legal tender only really refers to the currency in which the government demands its taxes to be payed in and pays its dues with. From an American citizen stand point, yens and euros aren't legal tender, yet he considers them as good a currency as dollars, which means what he really is rooting for is government sanctioned currency. How can people confuse so many things when it comes to economics. It's not that complicated...

And as far as the government is concerned, if you're not trading with a currency, then it is barter, which has its own applicable taxes. As long as the man gets his cut...


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 23, 2011, 01:03:00 AM

You make me realize why I instinctively refuse to show my face on the web  ;D


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: steelhouse on April 23, 2011, 01:09:47 AM
This guy is a regular at twoplustwo.com economics and political forums he is a really sharp anarchist guy.  But, bitcoin has had an exchange value for 6 months.  It is not a pyramid scam. A>B B>C C>D D>E E>F F>G G>A it is the web of connections that keep bitcoin up.  Every time someone buys alpaca socks those bitcoins will end up at someone that created goods.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 23, 2011, 01:13:49 AM
This guy is a regular at twoplustwo.com economics and political forums he is a really sharp anarchist guy.

I'm perfectly ok to believe that this guy is smart.  The way he calmly and patiently rested his case showed it.

However, one can not be always right about everything.  And this one is very wrong about bitcoin in particular and money in general.

I'd like to hear more from him about why gold is money, as I am a former goldbug myself.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 01:22:37 AM
Haven't watched the whole video yet but I predict discussing it is going to be fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoK8HXMSsNg

Edit.  Ok, watched it all.  My quick answer:

Bitcoin is a decentralised accounting tool (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2866.0).  It is pretty much as useless as a pen and a piece of paper are.  Which means it is not.  A pen and a paper is useless only for someone who can't write.  Or for someone who can write, but in a world where nobody else can.

He loves Gold, but Gold has little intrinsic value.  It's a shiny rock.  BFD.  All his criticism is completely valid for Gold as well.  There's a reason why we don't use chickens as currency.

The big advantage Gold has over BitCoins is track record.  5000+ years is a bit less of a gamble than something that's 2 years old.  But in terms of a currency, the only difference is more people want Gold.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 01:22:59 AM
It is likely that individual in the video is affiliated with federal reserve company or any other party supportive of us dollar and continued enslavement of society

It's not.  I know the guy.  He's an anarchist.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 01:23:38 AM
My guess is that he is just an economics student.

My guess too. Funny how economists seem to be the ones who know least about economics.

Your guess is wrong.  He's a BIG Austrian guy.  He just doesn't understand it very well.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 01:24:08 AM

He actually invented that logo.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: barbarousrelic on April 23, 2011, 01:24:55 AM
He's saying you can't price bitcoins because there isn't a market for them. But there is.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 01:29:38 AM
He's saying you can't price bitcoins because there isn't a market for them. But there is.

He's saying you can't price them because there is nothing you can do with them other than trade them.  He's right in that respect, there's nothing you can do *with* them.  You can't eat them, you can't look at how pretty they are, etc...

But that doesn't mean you can't price them.  Gold, if only valued for it's industrial and cosmetic properties, would be much less than what it currently is.  It's almost as if he doesn't understand the concept of currency.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: slurch on April 23, 2011, 01:34:03 AM
Central Banking = Debt Slavery = Not Good
"Legal Tender" = government violence backed tender

*shakes head at author of video*


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: steelhouse on April 23, 2011, 01:39:51 AM
He will soon realize a currency that is not commodity backed or fiat backed is possible.  how will he know, bitcoin will still have an exchange value in 6 months.  I can even predict the end of bitcoin.  What will happen is someone will try to corner the bitcoin market.  The users and store owners will say no and use another fork currency.   It is the store owners that decide what the currency is.  I had to eat crow too.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 23, 2011, 01:41:57 AM
He's saying you can't price bitcoins because there isn't a market for them. But there is.

He's saying you can't price them because there is nothing you can do with them other than trade them.

Yeah and that's silly to say that.

As I said in an other thread, it's like saying a hammer has no use apart from nailing nails.  It's what it is made for, damn it!


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: barbarousrelic on April 23, 2011, 01:43:49 AM
He's saying you can't price bitcoins because there isn't a market for them. But there is.

He's saying you can't price them because there is nothing you can do with them other than trade them. 

Yeah and that's silly to say that.

As I said in an other thread, it's like saying that a hammer has no use apart from nailing nails.  It's what it is made for, damn it!

And furthermore, there is nothing you can do with dollars or euros or francs but trade them, but you can certainly price things in these currencies.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 01:44:12 AM
He's saying you can't price bitcoins because there isn't a market for them. But there is.

He's saying you can't price them because there is nothing you can do with them other than trade them.

Yeah and that's silly to say that.

As I said in an other thread, it's like saying a hammer has no use apart from nailing nails.  It's what it is made for, damn it!

I agree.

There are a lot of reasons to pick on BitCoin.  That certainly isn't one, especially from someone who says gold is a good currency.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 01:45:07 AM
He's saying you can't price bitcoins because there isn't a market for them. But there is.

He's saying you can't price them because there is nothing you can do with them other than trade them. 

Yeah and that's silly to say that.

As I said in an other thread, it's like saying that a hammer has no use apart from nailing nails.  It's what it is made for, damn it!

And furthermore, there is nothing you can do with dollars or euros or francs but trade them, but you can certainly price things in these currencies.

Those you can since you are forced to.  And everyone is "forced" to take them.

The funny thing is, he says the law in the US says you have to accept $, but you don't.

Someone needs to find his youtube video about Santa Claus.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: The Script on April 23, 2011, 01:57:19 AM

Really?!  How do you know?


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: The Script on April 23, 2011, 01:59:05 AM
The way he talks resembles a priest lecture. Anyway, he's an idiot and has no idea what he's talking about. Just leave him be

http://i.imgur.com/H1iNL.jpg

A (http://i.imgur.com/CpYL9.jpg) l (http://i.imgur.com/ztaPV.jpg) s (http://i.imgur.com/xT85d.jpg) o (http://i.imgur.com/OF0xL.jpg)

LOL   

Each "improved" picture made me crack up even more....hilarious, dude.


BitCoins has been getting a bad rap from the Austrians, and I can't figure out why.  I think they are afraid of it because they don't understand it.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: goatpig on April 23, 2011, 02:00:50 AM
The funny thing is, he says the law in the US says you have to accept $, but you don't.

You sure about that? I thought vendors could accept any form of payment but were not allowed to refuse payments in dollars.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 23, 2011, 02:10:36 AM
You sure about that? I thought vendors could accept any form of payment but were not allowed to refuse payments in dollars.

This is a weird idea.  If I am not allowed to refuse dollars, I'll just demand a huge amount of them.

For instance, I can ask a gram of gold for a stuff I sell, but $1,000 for that same stuff.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 02:18:39 AM

I can dig up the thread.  I've talked to this guy for 5+ years.  He had a couple of different logos before he settled on that one.  I'm amazed it caught on.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: goatpig on April 23, 2011, 02:25:48 AM
You sure about that? I thought vendors could accept any form of payment but were not allowed to refuse payments in dollars.

This is a weird idea.  If I am not allowed to refuse dollars, I'll just demand a huge amount of them.

For instance, I can ask a gram of gold for a stuff I sell, but $1,000 for that same stuff.

Not quite. I'm not sure about American legislation, but since we're both French, I can tell you how it would work between you and I. Say you're looking to trade a pig. If you're willing to take my goat for it, then this is barter. In this case, this is a trade between individuals. On the other hand, if you're a vendor, you have to price the goods you put up for sale. There are two consequences to this: the price has to be made public, this means if I see a price tag on something in your store, I can legally purchase that good for that price, even if you messed up with the tag. Second consequence is that you can't refuse to sell anything priced in your store as long as I can meet your price in euros. I think there is something about 24h notice before a price change, so that you can't sell me something for €20 and ask €40 for it from the guy right next to me.

Now I don't know about the US, that's why I'm asking about it.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Littleshop on April 23, 2011, 02:27:51 AM
The funny thing is, he says the law in the US says you have to accept $, but you don't.

You sure about that? I thought vendors could accept any form of payment but were not allowed to refuse payments in dollars.

Vendors in the USA can reject USD, or specific types of USD like coins for merchandise or services that have NOT BEEN DELIVERED.  

Once the service or good has been delivered and there is a balance due the merchant MUST accept USD.  

So if I get my car fixed (IE the work is done) or need to pay my cell phone bill both must accept USD.  They can not require payment in just gold.  If I am at a restaurant and they present me with a bill they must take USD.  When I am in a store and I want to buy something (even if it is in my hand) the merchant can accept or reject USD.   They can also reject pennies if they like.  


Just as the bill says, "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private"



Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: goatpig on April 23, 2011, 02:29:20 AM
The funny thing is, he says the law in the US says you have to accept $, but you don't.

You sure about that? I thought vendors could accept any form of payment but were not allowed to refuse payments in dollars.

Vendors in the USA can reject USD, or specific types of USD like coins for merchandise or services that have NOT BEEN DELIVERED.  

Once the service or good has been delivered and there is a balance due the merchant MUST accept USD.  

So if I get my car fixed (IE the work is done) or need to pay my cell phone bill both must accept USD.  They can not require payment in just gold.  If I am at a restaurant and they present me with a bill they must take USD.  When I am in a store and I want to buy something (even if it is in my hand) the merchant can accept or reject USD.   They can also reject pennies if they like.  A cell phone company CAN NOT reject pennies for the bill.

Just as the bill says, "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private"



I see, thanks for the clarification


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 23, 2011, 02:33:13 AM
This is a weird idea.  If I am not allowed to refuse dollars, I'll just demand a huge amount of them.

For instance, I can ask a gram of gold for a stuff I sell, but $1,000 for that same stuff.

Not quite. I'm not sure about American legislation, but since we're both French, I can tell you how it would work between you and I. Say you're looking to trade a pig. If you're willing to take my goat for it, then this is barter. In this case, this is a trade between individuals. On the other hand, if you're a vendor, you have to price the goods you put up for sale. There are two consequences to this: the price has to be made public, this means if I see a price tag on something in your store, I can legally purchase that good for that price, even if you messed up with the tag. Second consequence is that you can't refuse to sell anything priced in your store as long as I can meet your price in euros. I think there is something about 24h notice before a price change, so that you can't sell me something for €20 and ask €40 for it from the guy right next to me.

Now I don't know about the US, that's why I'm asking about it.

What's stopping me from using double priced labels and put a ridiculously large amount in euros on them ?

Exemple for a candy bar:

"
delicious candy bar

Price:
1 BTC
100 000 EUR
"


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: goatpig on April 23, 2011, 02:35:32 AM
What's stopping me to use double priced labels and put a ridiculously large amount in euros on them ?

Exemple for a candy bar:

"
delicious candy bar

Price:
1 BTC
100 000 EUR
"

That you can do. I think as long as there is a pricetag in euros, anything goes.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 02:37:21 AM
You sure about that? I thought vendors could accept any form of payment but were not allowed to refuse payments in dollars.

This is a weird idea.  If I am not allowed to refuse dollars, I'll just demand a huge amount of them.

For instance, I can ask a gram of gold for a stuff I sell, but $1,000 for that same stuff.

Not quite. I'm not sure about American legislation, but since we're both French, I can tell you how it would work between you and I. Say you're looking to trade a pig. If you're willing to take my goat for it, then this is barter. In this case, this is a trade between individuals. On the other hand, if you're a vendor, you have to price the goods you put up for sale. There are two consequences to this: the price has to be made public, this means if I see a price tag on something in your store, I can legally purchase that good for that price, even if you messed up with the tag. Second consequence is that you can't refuse to sell anything priced in your store as long as I can meet your price in euros. I think there is something about 24h notice before a price change, so that you can't sell me something for €20 and ask €40 for it from the guy right next to me.

Now I don't know about the US, that's why I'm asking about it.

The US tends to avoid having a lot of silly laws like this.  I saw that in Italy, you are not even allowed to legally barter for stuff.  Everything had to be sold for a price.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Alex Beckenham on April 23, 2011, 02:38:58 AM
What's stopping me from using double priced labels and put a ridiculously large amount in euros on them ?

Exemple for a candy bar:

"
delicious candy bar

Price:
1 BTC
100 000 EUR
"

Candy might be okay, but that falls apart (at least in Australia) if you try to do that with basic items like milk and bread.

The market police will come and tell you you're charging too much.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: goatpig on April 23, 2011, 02:42:46 AM
The US tends to avoid having a lot of silly laws like this.  I saw that in Italy, you are not even allowed to legally barter for stuff.  Everything had to be sold for a price.

I think there was some UN conducted survey that showed France was the country in the world with the most enacted laws. There was some ridiculous figures provided, something like each year, a branch of the French house of representatives charged of deprecating old laws would get rid of 10,000 of them, the equivalent of the whole legislative scripture of the US.

On another note, grondilu, don't forget that if you price your goods for 100,000 EUR or 1 BTC, that you'll be paying taxes on the euro price, whether it sold for euros or not.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 23, 2011, 02:43:08 AM
What's stopping me to use double priced labels and put a ridiculously large amount in euros on them ?

Exemple for a candy bar:

"
delicious candy bar

Price:
1 BTC
100 000 EUR
"

That you can do. I think as long as there is a pricetag in euros, anything goes.

Yeah that's what I thought.  So "legal tender" doesn't mean much, because selling a candy bar at 100,000 EUR piece, it's pretty much like refusing EUR as a paiement.

Reminds me when I bought a 50pesos gold coin once.  The coin was worth around 600EUR, and when I asked for the price, she just said 800EUR.  It seemed to me she didn't really want to sell her coin, so she said a large number.  I know it because she looked a bit surprised when I said yes.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: mizerydearia on April 23, 2011, 02:44:14 AM
http://i.imgur.com/iFRST.gif
Here is without the caption in case anyone wants derivative (http://imgur.com/GGXd4)
font: FrizQuadrata Bold
duplicated here (http://bitcoin.witcoin.com/p/1279/Dont-buy-bitcoins)


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: goatpig on April 23, 2011, 02:45:58 AM
Yeah that's what I thought.  So "legal tender" doesn't mean much, because selling a candy bar at 100,000 EUR piece, it's pretty much like refusing EUR as a paiement.

You might want to look at the post above this one regarding taxes due on the sell.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 23, 2011, 02:46:40 AM
On another note, grondilu, don't forget that if you price your goods for 100,000 EUR or 1 BTC, that you'll be paying taxes on the euro price, whether it sold for euros or not.

Oh yeah I forgot about that.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: The Script on April 23, 2011, 03:08:55 AM

I haven't watched the video yet, but is that an upside-down Voluntaryist logo I see?


He actually invented that logo.

Really?!  How do you know?

I can dig up the thread.  I've talked to this guy for 5+ years.  He had a couple of different logos before he settled on that one.  I'm amazed it caught on.

I believe you.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised.  The anarcho-capitalist/voluntaryist community on the internet probably isn't that large.  That symbol is one of the first images to appear in Google when you search for "voluntaryism".  Good stuff.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: barbarousrelic on April 23, 2011, 01:04:01 PM
Not quite. I'm not sure about American legislation, but since we're both French, I can tell you how it would work between you and I. Say you're looking to trade a pig. If you're willing to take my goat for it, then this is barter. In this case, this is a trade between individuals. On the other hand, if you're a vendor, you have to price the goods you put up for sale. There are two consequences to this: the price has to be made public, this means if I see a price tag on something in your store, I can legally purchase that good for that price, even if you messed up with the tag.

That's interesting. In the US, vendors are not legally required to honor prices published in error.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: AtlasONo on April 23, 2011, 02:44:28 PM
Real mature responses around here. We're sure to be taken seriously now!


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Insti on April 23, 2011, 02:45:29 PM
This video is at least a good demonstration that he does not have psychic powers and cannot predict the future.

(tl:dw - He uses his lack of psychic powers as an example at one point in the video)


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: xf2_org on April 23, 2011, 04:26:05 PM
Real mature responses around here. We're sure to be taken seriously now!

+1 agreed

This forum is not 4chan, people.



Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Raoul Duke on April 23, 2011, 05:46:26 PM
You guys should move the pics to the thread about bitcoin memes...
There's some pretty good stuff here that really fits there  ;D

http://gobarbra.com/hit/new-666e0d36f3fab5fd02f5ebf9e6bd6178

oops...  ::)


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Alex Beckenham on April 23, 2011, 05:58:46 PM
That's exactly what I was thinking when I first saw the carrot... it'll end up being a repeat joke.



Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: jtimon on April 23, 2011, 07:03:44 PM
I think he believes that money must have "intrinsic value".
Why the dolar has been valued since 1972 then?


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 07:08:29 PM
I think he believes that money must have "intrinsic value".
Why the dolar has been valued since 1972 then?

Because you are "forced" to use it.

That's certainly a good argument on why money gains value.  That doesn't mean it's the only way.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: goatpig on April 23, 2011, 07:16:45 PM
I think he believes that money must have "intrinsic value".
Why the dolar has been valued since 1972 then?

Actually it's been devalued oO

People might have put an increasing amount of trust in the currency but it doesn't change the fact that the value a dollar represents nowadays is less than what it was in 1972. Oppose to that, Bitcoins are gainly value on the long term.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: mizerydearia on April 23, 2011, 07:28:32 PM
You guys should move the pics to the thread about bitcoin memes...
Also available at http://bitcoin.witcoin.com/p/1279/Dont-buy-bitcoins
Also see http://bitcoin.witcoin.com/p/1280/Bitcoin-needs-more-memes


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: no to the gold cult on April 23, 2011, 08:22:41 PM
You guys should move the pics to the thread about bitcoin memes...
There's some pretty good stuff here that really fits there  ;D

http://gobarbra.com/hit/new-666e0d36f3fab5fd02f5ebf9e6bd6178

oops...  ::)

I followed that link but had to close it immediately, I am annoyed when websites presume to intrude upon my ears uninvited.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Raoul Duke on April 23, 2011, 08:51:01 PM
You guys should move the pics to the thread about bitcoin memes...
There's some pretty good stuff here that really fits there  ;D

http://gobarbra.com/hit/new-666e0d36f3fab5fd02f5ebf9e6bd6178

oops...  ::)

I followed that link but had to close it immediately, I am annoyed when websites presume to intrude upon my ears uninvited.

Yeah, it's not good when your boss listens to your computer playing music when you should be working  :o j/k  ;)


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 10:38:30 PM
Found the Santa Claus video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWpNEOncDGo

22 minutes long, though.  Need to find the funny part of it.  Most of it makes Ben Stein look like Billy Mays.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: dvide on April 23, 2011, 10:41:25 PM
This mockery is discouraging. Nielsio is a brother in arms. Maybe he's wrong about bitcoin, and mistaken about how currency can be valuable in and of itself, but let's not straw man him. Come on guys, he doesn't support government fiat--actually listen to what he said. And he doesn't think that vegetables make a good currency obviously; vegetables was just an example of a consumption good. The pictures made me sad because it's such a straw man. Come on guys, you can try to convince him why he's wrong. He has a good following of anarcho-capitalists and voluntaryists that could get on board. Mocking him is actually a travesty :)

Sometimes the best way to learn is just to put your conclusions out there, but be open to being shown to be wrong. Nielsio will change his mind if you can show why he's wrong. For the record, I saw his video and it made me think about the concepts involved and about why my intuition was telling me that he was wrong. I spent all day looking into bitcoin and I think it's wonderful. Some people here have provided some good answers, explaining how the properties that make gold good as currency make people value the gold as currency by itself. His psychic powers may be scarce, but they have none of the other properties that would make it good currency (unlike gold and bitcoins too). The fact that nobody would buy his psychic power certificates is not just because it has no genuine consumption value, but mostly because it lacks the properties vladimir described. And he would be the central issuer of this currency, where with bitcoin and gold that is not the case.

And yes, the properties that make gold good as jewellery or as an electrical conductor also means people value gold for those use cases, but that's different and unrelated. The fact that gold has value for some consumption too is just a sort of 'coincidence'. Of course, nearly every material has some use for consumption but very few materials have properties that make it a good currency (silver is another good currency but unlike gold it corrodes easily). Maybe these consumption use cases helped it become established at first, but I refuse to accept that it's a necessary step. Currency in and of itself is valuable. Without it we'd be bartering, so with currency our lives are better. So if gold had no foreseeable use as a consumption good, lives would still be improved by using it as a currency because we wouldn't be bartering. So logically the properties of currency itself provide a kind of value too, solely from its use as a good medium of exchange.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 10:48:56 PM
This mockery is discouraging. Nielsio is a brother in arms. Maybe he's wrong about bitcoin, and mistaken about how currency can be valuable in and of itself, but let's not straw man him. Come on guys, he doesn't support government fiat--actually listen to what he said. And he doesn't think that vegetables make a good currency obviously; vegetables was just an example of a consumption good. The pictures made me sad because it's such a straw man. Come on guys, you can try to convince him why he's wrong. He has a good following of anarcho-capitalists and voluntaryists that could get on board. Mocking him is actually a travesty :)

Sometimes the best way to learn is just to put your conclusions out there, but be open to being shown to be wrong. Nielsio will change his mind if you can show why he's wrong. For the record, I saw his video and it made me think about the concepts involved and about why my intuition was telling me that he was wrong. I spent all day looking into bitcoin and I think it's wonderful. Some people here have provided some good answers, explaining how the properties that make gold good as currency make people value the gold as currency by itself. His psychic powers may be scarce, but they have none of the other properties that would make it good currency (unlike gold and bitcoins too). The fact that nobody would buy his psychic power certificates is not just because it has no genuine consumption value, but mostly because it lacks the properties vladimir described. And he would be the central issuer of this currency, where with bitcoin and gold that is not the case.

And yes, the properties that make gold good as jewellery or as an electrical conductor also means people value gold for those use cases, but that's different and unrelated. The fact that gold has value for some consumption too is just a sort of 'coincidence'. Of course, nearly every material has some use for consumption but very few materials have properties that make it a good currency (silver is another good currency but unlike gold it corrodes easily). Maybe these consumption use cases helped it become established at first, but I refuse to accept that it's a necessary step. Currency in and of itself is valuable. Without it we'd be bartering, so with currency our lives are better. So if gold had no foreseeable use as a consumption good, lives would still be improved by using it as a currency because we wouldn't be bartering. So logically the properties of currency itself provide a kind of value too, solely from its use as a good medium of exchange.

I've dealt with Neilsio for many years, and him admitting he is wrong on ANYTHING is pretty much impossible.  Even when it comes from someone he admires and respects.  You will not convince him he is wrong about anything once he is convinced he knows the answer.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: dvide on April 23, 2011, 10:53:28 PM
This mockery is discouraging. Nielsio is a brother in arms. Maybe he's wrong about bitcoin, and mistaken about how currency can be valuable in and of itself, but let's not straw man him. Come on guys, he doesn't support government fiat--actually listen to what he said. And he doesn't think that vegetables make a good currency obviously; vegetables was just an example of a consumption good. The pictures made me sad because it's such a straw man. Come on guys, you can try to convince him why he's wrong. He has a good following of anarcho-capitalists and voluntaryists that could get on board. Mocking him is actually a travesty :)

Sometimes the best way to learn is just to put your conclusions out there, but be open to being shown to be wrong. Nielsio will change his mind if you can show why he's wrong. For the record, I saw his video and it made me think about the concepts involved and about why my intuition was telling me that he was wrong. I spent all day looking into bitcoin and I think it's wonderful. Some people here have provided some good answers, explaining how the properties that make gold good as currency make people value the gold as currency by itself. His psychic powers may be scarce, but they have none of the other properties that would make it good currency (unlike gold and bitcoins too). The fact that nobody would buy his psychic power certificates is not just because it has no genuine consumption value, but mostly because it lacks the properties vladimir described. And he would be the central issuer of this currency, where with bitcoin and gold that is not the case.

And yes, the properties that make gold good as jewellery or as an electrical conductor also means people value gold for those use cases, but that's different and unrelated. The fact that gold has value for some consumption too is just a sort of 'coincidence'. Of course, nearly every material has some use for consumption but very few materials have properties that make it a good currency (silver is another good currency but unlike gold it corrodes easily). Maybe these consumption use cases helped it become established at first, but I refuse to accept that it's a necessary step. Currency in and of itself is valuable. Without it we'd be bartering, so with currency our lives are better. So if gold had no foreseeable use as a consumption good, lives would still be improved by using it as a currency because we wouldn't be bartering. So logically the properties of currency itself provide a kind of value too, solely from its use as a good medium of exchange.

I've dealt with Neilsio for many years, and him admitting he is wrong on ANYTHING is pretty much impossible.  Even when it comes from someone he admires and respects.  You will not convince him he is wrong about anything once he is convinced he knows the answer.
Ok. I must admit I said that without knowing for sure, but he doesn't strike me as an ideologue. I'll concede though because you know him. I still don't think he's worth this mockery though.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 11:02:37 PM
This mockery is discouraging. Nielsio is a brother in arms. Maybe he's wrong about bitcoin, and mistaken about how currency can be valuable in and of itself, but let's not straw man him. Come on guys, he doesn't support government fiat--actually listen to what he said. And he doesn't think that vegetables make a good currency obviously; vegetables was just an example of a consumption good. The pictures made me sad because it's such a straw man. Come on guys, you can try to convince him why he's wrong. He has a good following of anarcho-capitalists and voluntaryists that could get on board. Mocking him is actually a travesty :)

Sometimes the best way to learn is just to put your conclusions out there, but be open to being shown to be wrong. Nielsio will change his mind if you can show why he's wrong. For the record, I saw his video and it made me think about the concepts involved and about why my intuition was telling me that he was wrong. I spent all day looking into bitcoin and I think it's wonderful. Some people here have provided some good answers, explaining how the properties that make gold good as currency make people value the gold as currency by itself. His psychic powers may be scarce, but they have none of the other properties that would make it good currency (unlike gold and bitcoins too). The fact that nobody would buy his psychic power certificates is not just because it has no genuine consumption value, but mostly because it lacks the properties vladimir described. And he would be the central issuer of this currency, where with bitcoin and gold that is not the case.

And yes, the properties that make gold good as jewellery or as an electrical conductor also means people value gold for those use cases, but that's different and unrelated. The fact that gold has value for some consumption too is just a sort of 'coincidence'. Of course, nearly every material has some use for consumption but very few materials have properties that make it a good currency (silver is another good currency but unlike gold it corrodes easily). Maybe these consumption use cases helped it become established at first, but I refuse to accept that it's a necessary step. Currency in and of itself is valuable. Without it we'd be bartering, so with currency our lives are better. So if gold had no foreseeable use as a consumption good, lives would still be improved by using it as a currency because we wouldn't be bartering. So logically the properties of currency itself provide a kind of value too, solely from its use as a good medium of exchange.

I've dealt with Neilsio for many years, and him admitting he is wrong on ANYTHING is pretty much impossible.  Even when it comes from someone he admires and respects.  You will not convince him he is wrong about anything once he is convinced he knows the answer.
Ok. I must admit I said that without knowing for sure, but he doesn't strike me as an ideologue. I'll concede though because you know him. I still don't think he's worth this mockery though.

Possibly, but only because he could get to a lot of people, and a few people could drive up the price.

He's a brother in arms only accidentally.  I sense some kind of trauma in his past from government/schools/society that have made him the way he is more than actually understanding the concepts.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Prze_koles on April 23, 2011, 11:03:41 PM
This is boring. I mean, we already know those facts. It is obvious for Bitcoin community that there's no government which forces you to use Bitcoins. I think nobody here is 100% sure that Bitcoin will succeed. Although we participate in this project, we have fun with this, we speculate etc.
OK, this is his opinion, but who cares what is he saying?


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 11:10:24 PM
This is boring. I mean, we already know those facts. It is obvious for Bitcoin community that there's no government which forces you to use Bitcoins. I think nobody here is 100% sure that Bitcoin will succeed. Although we participate in this project, we have fun with this, we speculate etc.
OK, this is his opinion, but who cares what is he saying?

Sure, everyone here knows.  But there are other people who won't immediately know the weaknesses in his arguments.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: BCEmporium on April 23, 2011, 11:15:33 PM
I'm being slow with my projects waiting for when BTC stops to be "the business" and business can be done with BTC instead.

The only way to stop BTC is to shutdown the internet. But if someone does that, then we go back to caves where no money at all, printed or whatsoever has any value. We will trade with bison bones instead.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 23, 2011, 11:20:36 PM
I think being mocked a bit is a good punishment for being a smart ass.

If you think you are clever enough to lecture people about stuffs, you have to assume it.


A lot of people are doing and writing very smart things, and yet they don't feel the narcissic urge of showing their face on Youtube.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: goatpig on April 23, 2011, 11:36:48 PM
I think being mocked a bit is a good punishment for being a smart ass.

If you think you are clever enough to lecture people about stuffs, you have to assume it.


A lot of people are doing and writing very smart things, and yet they don't feel the narcissic urge of showing their face on Youtube.

+1
 Apparently some people did quite the opposite of what this guy is saying.

I think the problem isn't whether he is a "brother in arms" but rather that he is close minded. As someone stated, his behavior indicates that he is "like minded" with anarchist or libertarian ideals not because he embraces them but rather because he nurtures anti government feelings, for whatever reason. I'm a gold bug myself yet I adopted Bitcoin at first sight, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone here, which certainly prove the 2 aren't incompatible. Also, I'll take a wolf skull with those bison bones.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 23, 2011, 11:40:52 PM
I'm a gold bug myself yet I adopted Bitcoin at first sight, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone here, which certainly prove the 2 aren't incompatible.

This gives me an idea for a poll.

Edit.

Here it is:

http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6392.0


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: BCEmporium on April 23, 2011, 11:43:25 PM
Just been watching the vid - part of it without fall asleep -, and yes... that guy is up to be mocked. Not only he isn't fluid on explanations, he keeps hanging the speech to read the paper, which indicates he has no idea whatsoever of what he is talking about, as is also redundant, keep saying the same thing over and over by different words.
To the end, what he states to be the "flaw" of BTC is the same one could apply for FOREX and in the end he doesn't appear to know "how things work". I can trade BTC with B and B with C, as I could trade EUR for USD with B and B trade those USD back to EUR with C...
But I can also trade USD for carrots, or EUR for carrots or... I guess this one would shock that guy... BTC for carrots. As long as both parts agree to do business in one determinate currency or good (if it is direct trade) that's a trade.
The only difference to BTC is that while I'm forced by the government to accept EUR (in my case) as a mean of payment, nobody can force me to accept BTC, but this doesn't mean that either EUR will hold its value or BTC will drop its, just means I'm forced to accept EUR.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: goatpig on April 23, 2011, 11:47:32 PM
The fact that he speaks of carrots as a currency-worthy commodity speaks volumes on his understanding of what consists in a good medium of exchange.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 23, 2011, 11:54:51 PM
I think being mocked a bit is a good punishment for being a smart ass.

If you think you are clever enough to lecture people about stuffs, you have to assume it.


A lot of people are doing and writing very smart things, and yet they don't feel the narcissic urge of showing their face on Youtube.

+1
 Apparently some people did quite the opposite of what this guy is saying.

I think the problem isn't whether he is a "brother in arms" but rather that he is close minded. As someone stated, his behavior indicates that he is "like minded" with anarchist or libertarian ideals not because he embraces them but rather because he nurtures anti government feelings, for whatever reason. I'm a gold bug myself yet I adopted Bitcoin at first sight, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone here, which certainly prove the 2 aren't incompatible. Also, I'll take a wolf skull with those bison bones.

Bitcoins and Gold have a lot in common.  That surely is not a coincidence.  There are two main advantages of Gold.  1) Track record/public knowledge  2) The inability to create more  Gold-like commodities.

Bitcoins are superior to Gold in that I can send them easily over the internet, verify them easier, and break them up more- just to name a few things.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tiberiandusk on April 23, 2011, 11:55:26 PM
This makes me think of an old dilbert strip. Why do all economists look like flood victims?


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Anonymous on April 24, 2011, 03:03:34 AM
What are they going to say if bitcoin reaches parity with silver and eventually gold ? Will their heads explode ?


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: mizerydearia on April 24, 2011, 06:01:16 AM
http://weusecarrots.com/


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: mizerydearia on April 24, 2011, 06:02:35 AM

You should post that to http://bitcoin.witcoin.com/p/1279/Dont-buy-bitcoins


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 24, 2011, 06:17:24 AM


http://weusecarrots.com/


 ;D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Raoul Duke on April 24, 2011, 08:05:02 PM
Well, someone made a real response video and posted it on Youtube.

The post just arrived at CoinBits.com

Check it out here http://coinbits.com/video/re-dont-buy-bitcoins/


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 24, 2011, 08:45:52 PM
Well, someone made a real response video and posted it on Youtube.

The post just arrived at CoinBits.com

Check it out here http://coinbits.com/video/re-dont-buy-bitcoins/

Not bad for a first reply.  I predict there will be more, but this one already does the job correctly.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Anonymous on April 25, 2011, 05:32:15 AM
Well, someone made a real response video and posted it on Youtube.

The post just arrived at CoinBits.com

Check it out here http://coinbits.com/video/re-dont-buy-bitcoins/

I can never get to coinbits. The site always times out for me.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: mizerydearia on April 25, 2011, 10:47:19 AM
Well, someone made a real response video and posted it on Youtube.

The post just arrived at CoinBits.com

Check it out here http://coinbits.com/video/re-dont-buy-bitcoins/

I can never get to coinbits. The site always times out for me.

same; inaccessible for me also.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: flux on April 25, 2011, 10:59:48 AM
Well, someone made a real response video and posted it on Youtube.

The post just arrived at CoinBits.com

Check it out here http://coinbits.com/video/re-dont-buy-bitcoins/

I can never get to coinbits. The site always times out for me.

same; inaccessible for me also.

Same here.

Anyway, I've posted a YouTube video yesterday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk5zs-hmVw4) that goes over a few of the problems with this guy's arguments, while (tempting as it may be) avoiding just plain mockery.

I (kind of) understand the points he's trying to make but, besides being fallacious ("currency needs to be either a consumer/producer good or legal tender" is a false dichotomy, as there are plenty of examples of successful currencies which are neither), his arguments aren't very well structured and his analogies suck. In reality, he doesn't even merit a response beyond mockery. The only reason why I did it was to try to counter his misinformation, in case someone actually takes his video seriously.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 25, 2011, 11:04:22 AM
In reality, he doesn't even merit a response beyond mockery. The only reason why I did it was to try to counter his misinformation, in case someone actually takes his video seriously.

And you did a good job quite quickly.

Thanks.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: The Script on April 25, 2011, 05:34:07 PM


http://weusecarrots.com/


 ;D :D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Genius!


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: S3052 on April 25, 2011, 06:46:59 PM
It would be funny to find out who the guy is. It should be put "wanted" somehwere..
If he is in the US, maybe PLATO can get to him on his road trip and convert him to bitcoins (selling for a few carrots as Plato needs food) :)


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 25, 2011, 07:05:11 PM
It would be funny to find out who the guy is. It should be put "wanted" somehwere..
If he is in the US, maybe PLATO can get to him on his road trip and convert him to bitcoins (selling for a few carrots as Plato needs food) :)

He's in Holland.  He's actually a nice enough guy (a few of my friends have met him before), just very, very wrong a lot.  Horribly misguided more than anything.  But he's very good natured and is still far better than a lot of people out there.  Just wrong, especially on this issue.

He is right that Bitcoins right now are highly speculative.  I'm not going to deny that.  But they have a *potential* to be very, very, very useful.  Right now, it's more of a novelty IMO.  There are a few things you can do with them and where they are great, but what you can do with them now is like what you could do with a PC when they first came out.  I'm sure tons of people thought they were worthless pieces of crap and overvalued, but enough people saw the potential and its easy to look at it right now.  People invested money into the PC market not because it *was* valuable at the time, but because they knew it had the potential to become *very* valuable.  This is why Bitcoins have me very interested, just seeing the potential and what could be, not because the landscape right now is that exciting, other than solving a really cool technical problem.  I'm sure there were some really smart people who didn't have the vision to see what PCs would become, but they still were wrong.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: S3052 on April 25, 2011, 07:11:33 PM
Actually I agree the guy looked very likeable.

When writing "get him" I was interested to find out who he is, now knowing that you know him, even better: Now we may be able to explain a bit better what the benefits of bitcoins are.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 25, 2011, 07:45:42 PM
Actually I agree the guy looked very likeable.

When writing "get him" I was interested to find out who he is, now knowing that you know him, even better: Now we may be able to explain a bit better what the benefits of bitcoins are.

I am facebook friends with him.  I know exactly who he is, he's stayed over at a friend of mines house.  As I said before, there's no point in trying to convince him anything once his mind is made up.  He's still convinced Dick Chaney personally installed thermite in the WTC.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: goatpig on April 26, 2011, 12:39:40 AM
Actually I agree the guy looked very likeable.

When writing "get him" I was interested to find out who he is, now knowing that you know him, even better: Now we may be able to explain a bit better what the benefits of bitcoins are.

I am facebook friends with him.  I know exactly who he is, he's stayed over at a friend of mines house.  As I said before, there's no point in trying to convince him anything once his mind is made up.  He's still convinced Dick Chaney personally installed thermite in the WTC.

bs. It was me. I was just overly balding that day


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Nick13ro on April 27, 2011, 02:52:56 AM
Actually I agree the guy looked very likeable.

When writing "get him" I was interested to find out who he is, now knowing that you know him, even better: Now we may be able to explain a bit better what the benefits of bitcoins are.

I am facebook friends with him.  I know exactly who he is, he's stayed over at a friend of mines house.  As I said before, there's no point in trying to convince him anything once his mind is made up.  He's still convinced Dick Chaney personally installed thermite in the WTC.

He's most likely wrong about him doing it personally, but beyond that...


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 27, 2011, 01:26:11 PM
Actually I agree the guy looked very likeable.

When writing "get him" I was interested to find out who he is, now knowing that you know him, even better: Now we may be able to explain a bit better what the benefits of bitcoins are.

I am facebook friends with him.  I know exactly who he is, he's stayed over at a friend of mines house.  As I said before, there's no point in trying to convince him anything once his mind is made up.  He's still convinced Dick Chaney personally installed thermite in the WTC.

He's most likely wrong about him doing it personally, but beyond that...

Do you think it is impossible that planes full of jet fuel could have burned the building enough to deform the steel frame of the building causing a collapse?


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 27, 2011, 01:30:31 PM
Please don't start a 9-11 debate.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Nick13ro on April 27, 2011, 02:02:00 PM
Actually I agree the guy looked very likeable.

When writing "get him" I was interested to find out who he is, now knowing that you know him, even better: Now we may be able to explain a bit better what the benefits of bitcoins are.

I am facebook friends with him.  I know exactly who he is, he's stayed over at a friend of mines house.  As I said before, there's no point in trying to convince him anything once his mind is made up.  He's still convinced Dick Chaney personally installed thermite in the WTC.

He's most likely wrong about him doing it personally, but beyond that...

Do you think it is impossible that planes full of jet fuel could have burned the building enough to deform the steel frame of the building causing a collapse?

Yes, that too. Also it's clear the buildings gave in starting at the bottom going up and then falling into their own footprint. Damage at the top would not have done that, only controlled demolition would have. Not to mention world trade center 7 fell the same way without getting hit by any planes.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Nick13ro on April 27, 2011, 02:02:29 PM
Please don't start a 9-11 debate.

Sorry. Too late. :) I hope it doesn't get too ugly. :P


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 27, 2011, 02:35:06 PM
Please don't start a 9-11 debate.

Sorry. Too late. :) I hope it doesn't get too ugly. :P

I'm not gonna get into it, but 9/11 threads are good fly traps IMO.  Shouldn't have been so naive to think we don't have nutters who don't understand physics here too.  Or just naive or ignorant.  But we can take it to another thread if you want.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: Nick13ro on April 27, 2011, 02:53:56 PM
Please don't start a 9-11 debate.

Sorry. Too late. :) I hope it doesn't get too ugly. :P

I'm not gonna get into it, but 9/11 threads are good fly traps IMO.  Shouldn't have been so naive to think we don't have nutters who don't understand physics here too.  Or just naive or ignorant.  But we can take it to another thread if you want.

No need. I'm satisfied I'm not a nutter and that jet fuel could not have collapsed those buildings, certainly not the way they did. The way I see it the only ones insane are the ones believing otherwise. A bomber crashed into the empire state building before and that building is still standing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-KXXsN8vc&feature=related And no, I don't believe the official pancaking crap. Feel free to feel all l superior for siding with the bought and paid for government experts. I suppose you also believe in the global warming cult.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: tomcollins on April 27, 2011, 03:26:40 PM
Please don't start a 9-11 debate.

Sorry. Too late. :) I hope it doesn't get too ugly. :P

I'm not gonna get into it, but 9/11 threads are good fly traps IMO.  Shouldn't have been so naive to think we don't have nutters who don't understand physics here too.  Or just naive or ignorant.  But we can take it to another thread if you want.

No need. I'm satisfied I'm not a nutter and that jet fuel could not have collapsed those buildings, certainly not the way they did. The way I see it the only ones insane are the ones believing otherwise. A bomber crashed into the empire state building before and that building is still standing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-KXXsN8vc&feature=related And no, I don't believe the official pancaking crap. Feel free to feel all l superior for siding with the bought and paid for government experts. I suppose you also believe in the global warming cult.

A B-25 bomber weighs 21,120 lbs.
A 767 weighs 395,000 lb.

This is like getting hit by a marble and saying that a bowling bowl would do the same damage.

I don't need to side with government experts, I'll side with my anarchist expert.  One floor of the WTC weighed a LOT.  That much weight dropping 10-12 feet results in a HUGE force.  If a plane can cut a hole in the side of it, one floor falling can certainly do as much damage.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: proudhon on April 27, 2011, 03:31:47 PM
Please don't start a 9-11 debate.

Sorry. Too late. :) I hope it doesn't get too ugly. :P

I'm not gonna get into it, but 9/11 threads are good fly traps IMO.  Shouldn't have been so naive to think we don't have nutters who don't understand physics here too.  Or just naive or ignorant.  But we can take it to another thread if you want.

No need. I'm satisfied I'm not a nutter and that jet fuel could not have collapsed those buildings, certainly not the way they did. The way I see it the only ones insane are the ones believing otherwise. A bomber crashed into the empire state building before and that building is still standing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-KXXsN8vc&feature=related And no, I don't believe the official pancaking crap. Feel free to feel all l superior for siding with the bought and paid for government experts. I suppose you also believe in the global warming cult.

Eventually with all our toasty electronic hashing machines we will be the global warming cult.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: barbarousrelic on April 27, 2011, 06:59:17 PM

No need. I'm satisfied I'm not a nutter and that jet fuel could not have collapsed those buildings, certainly not the way they did. The way I see it the only ones insane are the ones believing otherwise. A bomber crashed into the empire state building before and that building is still standing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-KXXsN8vc&feature=related And no, I don't believe the official pancaking crap. Feel free to feel all l superior for siding with the bought and paid for government experts. I suppose you also believe in the global warming cult.

A B-25 bomber weighs 21,120 lbs.
A 767 weighs 395,000 lb.

This is like getting hit by a marble and saying that a bowling bowl would do the same damage.

More importantly, a B-25 has a fuel capacity of 670 gallons (http://www.b25.net/pages/b25spec.html). A Boeing 767 has a  fuel capacity of between 16,000 and 24,000 gallons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_767#Specifications). It's not even in the same ballpark.


Title: Re: "Don't buy bitcoins"
Post by: grondilu on April 27, 2011, 07:15:24 PM
Oh I've just realised that this topic is mine so I can stop this 9/11 debate if I want.

And I do want to stop it.

Sorry guys.      :)