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Economy => Securities => Topic started by: Meni Rosenfeld on February 22, 2012, 10:11:09 PM



Title: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on February 22, 2012, 10:11:09 PM
tl; dr: Every PureMining bond entitles the holder to coupons in the value of the average Bitcoin mining output (w/o tx fees) of 1 MH/s, forever. So far 20000 bonds have been issued, ~16000 have been outstanding for a while and now recalled.

Introduction. Mining assets are common on GLBSE. This is understandable given the need to match investors who have funds to stake on their belief in the long-term viability of mining, with people who have the opportunities and skills to operate mining hardware efficiently.

Such assets usually come in the form of shares in a company which owns mining equipment, and which pays dividends based on the actual output of this equipment, minus any operating costs. I believe that this model entails too much involvement of investors in the details of the company's operations, with the following disadvantages:
1. Complexity. Valuating shares of such a company requires an analysis of its particular costs and risks.
2. Competence. This requires reliance on the operator's competence in utilizing his equipment effectively, which is difficult to determine.
3. Honesty. Because the exact output of a remote operation is difficult to verify, the company could easily falsify their data to obtain more than their fair share of the revenues, without risking damaging the reputation of the people behind it.

PureMining (https://glbse.com/asset/3cc7f4be83ff553ecbe53e57e55e5a672397a1d15b7bf7548ec07d996e76971b) offers to people who want to invest in mining, without physically purchasing and operating hardware, a simpler, "purer" alternative to this model. It is a bond asset for which the holder gets a steady payment equivalent to the mining output of a certain hashrate (1 MH/s per bond). The amount of coupons due can be deterministically and easily verified from blockchain data (which is external to the issuer and publicly available).

Coupons. Coupons for a bond over a period of time emulate the statistical expectation of the mining output of 1 MH/s (MegaHash per second) over this time period - coinbase only, no transaction fees, merged mining or alternative uses of hashing are considered. The exact procedure for the calculation is as follows.

Coupons are handed out on a schedule based on chunks of 336 blocks. The number 336 was chosen because it is the GCD of 2016 and 210000, meaning that within each such chunk, the network hashed at a consistent difficulty and block reward, so the average output of 1 MH/s over this time period can be easily calculated by multiplying the time span, the hashrate, the chance for a hash to be a block, and the block reward.

Every block with height 1 less than a multiple of 336 is a key block. Whenever a key block is found and confirmed by 5 more blocks, its vital data is recorded and used in the calculation of the coupon for the period between the time the previous key block was found and the time this key block was found. Letting

T = Difference, in seconds, between the timestamps of this key block and the previous key block.
B = Block reward (new generated coins) in this block
D = Difficulty of this block

The coupon is (T*B*10^6)/(D*2^32) per bond, rounded to within a reasonable numerical precision.

The time of physically paying out the coupons via the GLBSE mechanism is on a best-effort basis. It will usually be no more than 36 hours after a key block is found. If a period of unavailability is expected, I will make an effort to announce it in advance. When available I will pay coupons equal to the sum of due coupons for all unpaid key blocks.

Note that the total coupons in a time period are not subject to variability due to the number of blocks found. If blocks are generated more rapidly than usual, the next coupon will be paid sooner but will be proportionally smaller due to the smaller timespan. The blocks are used only as a reference for the difficulty and coinbase parameters the network worked on at a given time.

Information on key blocks and due coupons is available at http://bitcoinpuremining.com. This website is informational only and is in no way binding.

The first key block for which coupons will apply has height 168335.

Expiration. The bond does not expire. Coupons according to the described schedule are due forever if the bond is held that long. In practice, due to advances in hardware technology and diminishing coinbase, the prospects of the bond many years into the future are of little practical current value. But the infinite term gives a more consistent framework to think about the bond, and allows persistence of the asset by obviating the need for different assets for different times.

One way the bond can expire is if calculations of SHA-256 can no longer be used for mining Bitcoin. Since the bond is defined as corresponding to one million double applications of SHA-256 per second, and there is no universal way to translate this performance to other computations, the bond will become worthless in this scenario and no longer entitle for any coupons. It is highly unlikely that SHA-256 will be eschewed completely in the foreseeable future.

If GLBSE where the asset is traded ceases operation, an effort will be made to either call the bonds or replace them with a privately issued equivalent.

Also see calling below.

Calling. This is a callable bond. To limit my potential losses in case unforeseen financial, technical or legal issues arise, I maintain the right to buy back the asset, at a price per bond equal to 20% above the highest price it was traded at over the last month.

I believe that the call terms are generous enough to bondholders so that it poses very little risk of loss, and hence, should not greatly subtract from the bond's value.

Comparison with hardware purchase. When valuating the bond, investors should consider the following advantages over purchasing mining hardware of equivalent hashrate:
1. No electricity costs. For large-scale investments, no need for special facilities which can supply unusual power draw.
2. No effort spent on purchasing, setting up and maintaining the equipment. No physical space occupied by equipment, and no heat or noise generated.
3. No variance, pool fees, invalids, downtime or losses due to improperly run pools.
4. Ability to scale down the investment, as much as a single MH/s.
5. No dealing with hardware failures, which involve additional hassle at best, renewed purchase at worst.
6. Friction-free way to exit the investment via selling on GLBSE.

The following disadvantages should also be considered:
1. No income from transaction fees. These would have greatly complicated verification of due payments. Tx fees will also be for the most part insignificant for the foreseeable future, and whatever significance they have can be fairly easily estimated and entered into the valuation.
2. No income from merged mining or alternative uses of hardware (this includes exit strategies for a scenario where Bitcoin fails or ceases to use SHA-256).
3. No ability to control what goes in a block. Do note however that I have no intention to knowingly condone double-spending or DoS attacks on the Bitcoin network.

ROI projections. At the current network parameters (as of Jun 24 2012), the following ROI values can be calculated:
Issue price - 0.28 BTC
Difficulty - 1726567
Block reward - 50 BTC
Daily return - 582.6 uBTC (0.2081% ROI) = 86400 * 50 * 10^6 / (1591075 * 2^32)
Weekly ROI - 1.457% (linear, non-compounded) = 7 * 0.2081%
Monthly ROI - 6.347% (linear, non-compounded) = 30.5 * 0.2081%
Annual ROI - 112.60% (compunded weekly) = 1.01457 ^ (365/7) - 1

This means that, if the network parameters remain unchanged, the investment will more than double in a year. Of course, the parameters will not remain unchanged, so this value will not be fully realized. By investing in this bond, you are essentially betting that the difficulty will not rise too much.

Applicability for other miners. Although I am the issuer of this bond, its existence could benefit anyone who wishes to raise funds for a mining operation and share some of the risk. Such a person could borrow PureMining bonds, committing to return them at a later time, plus interest, plus any coupons due over the loan period. Selling the bonds will both supply funds and hedge the risk; should the profitability of mining decrease, so will the price of the bond, and hence the cost to pay back the obligation. A market allowing selling such bonds on margin would further facilitate this.

Trustworthiness. I, Meni Rosenfeld, am issuing the PureMining GLBSE asset, and committing to fulfilling the terms of the bond as described. I am a veteran of this forum and other Bitcoin communities, and own a Bitcoin business. I am using my real name which can be linked to my identity via my extensive online presence, and I have verified my identity with GLBSE.

My obligations are backed up by a partnership with Inaba (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=8198) in which I will purchase mining hardware and he will run them for me in his datacenter. So far I have ordered 13 BFL single units and half ownership in a BFL mini-rig. I have included the call clause to allow me to live up to the terms should the worst happen. I have also instructed my family how to handle the bond in case something happens to me.

The only way I can conceive not honoring the terms is if a malicious cracker hacks into my GLBSE account and issues new bonds on my behalf. The obligation thus created is arbitrarily high and there is no way to commit to it (of course, if the damage is within reason I will absorb the losses). I am using a strong password for GLBSE and keeping my computing environment reasonably secure, but cannot absolutely preclude this scenario. Do not buy newly issued shares unless I announce them on the forum, and in case of suspicious activity you would do well to verify via additional channels. Going forward I will look for robust ways to limit the plausibility of this scenario.

Contract appendix. The asset comes with contractual terms to which I wish to commit cryptographically, but which are too long for the asset contract. The next post will list these terms. Their hash, a7a7e87fe219bed1c4e6cc5b19d42fa607781abe8944fb305eea5c482480f956, is included in the contract.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on February 22, 2012, 10:11:55 PM
Coupons are computed as follows.

Every Bitcoin block with height 1 less than a multiple of 336 is a key block. Whenever a key block is found and confirmed by 5 more blocks, its vital data is recorded and used in the calculation of the coupon for the period between the time the last key block was found and the time this key block was found. Letting

T = Difference, in seconds, between the timestamps of this key block and the last key block.
B = Block reward (new generated coins) in this key block (a deterministic function of block height)
D = Difficulty of this key block

The coupon is (T*B*10^6)/(D*2^32) per bond, rounded to within a reasonable numerical precision.

The time of physically paying out the coupons via the GLBSE mechanism is on a best-effort basis.


If Bitcoin changes so that the letter of the above procedure no longer accurately reflects the spirit of the asset, which is that every bond is equivalent to two million applications of SHA-256 per second, the procedure will change to maintain the spirit. If such time comes that computation of SHA-256 can no longer be used for mining Bitcoin, the bond will become worthless and no longer entitle the holder to any coupons.


The bond is callable by the issuer at a price equal to 1.2 times the highest price the asset was traded on GLBSE over the prior 744 hours. If no technical means is offered by GLBSE for the call, it will be carried out as follows:
1. The call and the offered price will be announced.
2. Bondholders will be given 24 hours to cancel any ask orders.
3. A bid order will be placed at the specified price for the entire amount of outstanding shares.
4. Coupons will no longer be paid.
5. Bondholders will manually order to sell their bonds.


Holding the bond does not entitle the holder to any rights, or commit the issuer to any obligations, beyond what is stated in the asset contract and this appendix.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on February 22, 2012, 10:12:58 PM
(reserved)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: BinaryMage on February 22, 2012, 10:59:51 PM
That is easily the most intriguing venture I have seen in a long time. Following. (BTW, for anybody interested, at current difficulty you would get ROI in about 22.5 months)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: danieldaniel on February 23, 2012, 12:58:47 AM
This is really cool!  Whats the symbol?  I am definitely going to buy some of these!


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: copumpkin on February 23, 2012, 01:43:50 AM
forever?
: )

This isn't quite the same thing, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetuity might be of interest to people wondering about the time terms.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on February 23, 2012, 05:03:09 AM
(BTW, for anybody interested, at current difficulty you would get ROI in about 22.5 months)
Right, I wanted to include that figure but forgot, you beat me to it. Everyone should agree that 4.45% monthly return is good on one hand, but that the difficulty will increase on the other hand. By investing in this, you are betting that the difficulty will not increase too much.

This is really cool!  Whats the symbol?  I am definitely going to buy some of these!
The Ticker symbol is PureMining, the asset ID is 3cc7f4be83ff553ecbe53e57e55e5a672397a1d15b7bf7548ec07d996e76971b.

forever?
: )
In practice I will likely buy back all the bonds sometime in the next 50 years, either at market rates or via my contractual right. But this should still leave you with a total value which surpasses what the contract would provide to infinity (it's approximately a convergent geometric series).


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ineededausername on February 23, 2012, 02:58:51 PM
hmmm
$2.5/MH is a bit overpriced, but I guess it includes labor costs...


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: BinaryMage on February 23, 2012, 03:01:49 PM
hmmm
$2.5/MH is a bit overpriced, but I guess it includes labor costs...

Labor costs? What on earth are you talking about?

The idea of this is, in essence, an investment against difficulty increases. If difficulty goes up a lot, it will devalue. If difficulty goes down, it will increase in value.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on February 23, 2012, 04:49:08 PM
hmmm
$2.5/MH is a bit overpriced, but I guess it includes labor costs...
I priced it by considering both my own costs and risks, and the attractiveness of competing offers. If there is not enough interest at this price I'll consider offering at a lower price, admittedly there's some room for this. The price includes many things when compared to direct hardware purchase, as described in the OP.

and the dividend payment cycle should swing the price intra weekly (higher before dividends, drop after dividends paid, adjusted in time)
This is something which I have considered but unfortunately GLBSE doesn't offer a good solution. My payment cycle is every 2.3 days, most mining companies pay every week. The fluctuations would at worst be about 0.34% which are likely much less than the spreads.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on February 23, 2012, 05:02:31 PM
Sorry, I'd missed this thread and forgot to add it to my article, I'll update the article to include PureMining.

Nefario


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on February 23, 2012, 10:00:10 PM
Sorry, I'd missed this thread and forgot to add it to my article, I'll update the article to include PureMining.

Nefario
The article (http://bitcoinmedia.com/crowdfunding-gets-some-back/) now lists PureMining with a generic "Mining" title - but it's worth noting that this bond is quite different from most mining assets, and in fact in some sense antithetical to them. One of my long-term goals is to commoditize mining - as mining is, after all, a commodity - and to move away from the infungible "Please invest in my mining farm!" model. Rather, people and companies who wish to mine, should employ basic instruments according to their needs:

1. If they are willing to take the risk but in need of immediate cash for the purchase, borrow X BTC and commit to repay Y BTC at a later time (this would require some form of reputation and/or accountability). Borrowing USD can also work, and in all cases hedging against BTC/USD volatility should be considered.

2. If they have funds but don't want to have a stake in the long-term prospects of mining, sell short a generic mining bond, offering BTC as collateral. (There could be markets which allow negative mining bond balances and automatically deduct BTC coupons)

3. If they have some or all of the required funds and want to take some or all of the risk, do some combination of the above or similar instruments.

This of course does not preclude public investment in companies which mine (with or without additional activities), but the existence of an efficient global market for speculating on the generic, idealized profitability of mining, can help focus such investments on advantages specific to the company, by investors who are in a position to evaluate them.


All that said, for the time being the bond merely acts as an alternative to investing in mining companies, which streamlines typical costs into the valuation.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on February 25, 2012, 05:16:07 PM
First coupon, for block 168335, has been paid. Should have been 0.0015883564 BTC per bond, except I misunderstood how payment works in GLBSE, so bondholders can enjoy the larger amount of 0.01443959 BTC per bond.

In other news, bonds are now offered at 0.4 BTC per MH/s.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on February 29, 2012, 05:50:39 PM
To avoid any confusion, I do not currently have a policy of making a post about every coupon paid, only about any news and such. Scheduled payment history is available at http://bitcoinpuremining.com/ ; blocks marked as paid are indeed paid, otherwise they are listed as "Pending" (in theory a technical error could cause wrong stats to be displayed, but I make an effort to maintain accuracy). So far coupons have been paid for blocks 168335, 168671 and 169007.

I've paid a bonus 0.1 BTC per bond. Because of the recent price drop from 0.5 BTC to 0.4 BTC, I don't want early adopters to be penalized for their support. This guarantees that people who bought at 0.5 BTC are not worse off than people who buy now.

Note that I reserve the right to change the price at which bonds are offered without any compensation given to existing bondholders.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on February 29, 2012, 07:44:44 PM
I've paid a bonus 0.1 BTC per bond. Because of the recent price drop from 0.5 BTC to 0.4 BTC, I don't want early adopters to be penalized for their support. This guarantees that people who bought at 0.5 BTC are not worse off than people who buy now.
I sold because you dropped the price to .4
Worst combo possible. You should have written earlier.
nvmnd. done with pure mining
There are no doubt many things I should have done differently. As I said this is still a proof of concept, the only thing I am committing to come hell or high water is to abide by the contract, anything else is prone to my newbie mistakes. I will appreciate if you bear with me and let me learn from my mistakes - and compensate for any losses caused by them - instead of writing me or the asset off.

So let's look at some of my recent decisions.

1. Offering at an initial price of 0.5 BTC.
This is arguably too high. As I said this seemed to me a fair price considering the alternatives, but I may have been mistaken in my evaluation.

2. Lowering to 0.4 BTC.
This seems like a reasonable thing to do given that there was little demand at the higher price. Please tell me if you think this is wrong.

3. Not offering a compensation before lowering the price.
No excuses, I just didn't think of it at the time.

4. Offering compensation after the fact.
I didn't think of the possibility that early adopters would have sold, and it still makes little sense to me. If you bought it at 0.5 BTC, it means that you value a guarantee to be paid the equivalent of 1 MH/s as more than 0.5 BTC. Why would you want to shortly after sell it at 0.4 BTC?
Under this assumption, compensation after the fact would have been more or less equivalent to compensation in advance. And as I said, I think some form of compensation is fair because early adopters shouldn't be penalized for my overpricing.

5. Not trying to find early adopters and paying them directly.
That would have been cumbersome and there's no way for them to prove they were indeed early adopters.

6. Not announcing the compensation in advance.
That would have just invited freeriders who would then buy the shares and receive compensation, for an effective price of 0.3 BTC.


I would like to clarify that I am not committing to anything but what is stated in the contract, and potential buyers should base their decision first and foremost on the contract. The future traded price at GLBSE, which could be affected by my decisions, should be secondary. But if anyone else feels they have been wronged by my decisions, please let me know and I will try to set things straight.

Also be aware that it is entirely possible that the issuing price will decrease further in the future, and that I will handle it better that time (again, I'm not guaranteeing that there will be compensation to current bondholders).


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 02, 2012, 10:46:47 AM
Coupon payment summary for February 2012:

Code:
Block number Timestamp        Timestamp (Unix) Elapsed time Difficulty Block reward Coupon    Status
169007    Feb 29 2012 05:40:07  1330494007          179455    1376302.26789 50        0.0015179305 Paid
168671    Feb 27 2012 03:49:12  1330314552          180878    1376302.26789 50        0.0015299670 Paid
168335    Feb 25 2012 01:34:34  1330133674          187781    1376302.26789 50        0.0015883564 Paid

In addition, 0.0015423250 BTC coupon for block 169343 was paid today.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 03, 2012, 07:33:03 PM
Well, it appears that the streamlined, deterministic nature of this bond isn't attracting that much interest. So I'd like to press further the advantage of the offering in terms of pure performance numbers. Re-evaluating my strategy of utilizing BFL products, it seems safe to offer bonds at a new, low price of 0.28 BTC. Since I'm still only issuing a small number of shares, I'm willing to take the risk that I'm wrong.

Once again I do not want early adopters (and current bidders) to be worse off than buyers at the new price. Given that there already are bids at 0.35 BTC, my exact order of operations was:

1. Pay a bonus 0.05 BTC per bond.
2. Issue at 0.35 BTC.
3. Pay a bonus 0.07 BTC per bond.
4. Issue at 0.28 BTC.

ROI projections for the new price:

Issue price - 0.28 BTC
Difficulty - 1496979 (recently increased by 9%)
Block reward - 50 BTC
Daily return - 672 uBTC (0.24% ROI) = 86400 * 50 * 10^6 / (2^32 * 1496979)
Weekly ROI - 1.68% (linear, non-compounded) = 7 * 0.24%
Monthly ROI - 7.32% (linear, non-compounded) = 30.5 * 0.24%
Annual ROI - 138% (compunded weekly) = 1.0168 ^ (365/7) - 1

This means that, if the current network parameters remain unchanged, the investment will more than double in a year. Of course, the parameters will not remain unchanged, so this will not be fully realized.

I will mention again that I am making a personal commitment to do whatever it takes to abide by the contract, regardless of the success of any mining operations I may have.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: DeaDTerra on March 03, 2012, 08:27:50 PM
Well, it appears that the streamlined, deterministic nature of this bond isn't attracting that much interest. So I'd like to press further the advantage of the offering in terms of pure performance numbers. Re-evaluating my strategy of utilizing BFL products, it seems safe to offer bonds at a new, low price of 0.28 BTC. Since I'm still only issuing a small number of shares, I'm willing to take the risk that I'm wrong.

Once again I do not want early adopters (and current bidders) to be worse off than buyers at the new price. Given that there already are bids at 0.35 BTC, my exact order of operations was:

1. Pay a bonus 0.05 BTC per bond.
2. Issue at 0.35 BTC.
3. Pay a bonus 0.07 BTC per bond.
4. Issue at 0.28 BTC.

ROI projections for the new price:

Issue price - 0.28 BTC
Difficulty - 1496979 (recently increased by 9%)
Block reward - 50 BTC
Daily return - 672 uBTC (0.24% ROI) = 86400 * 50 * 10^6 / (2^32 * 1496979)
Weekly ROI - 1.68% (linear, non-compounded) = 7 * 0.24%
Monthly ROI - 7.32% (linear, non-compounded) = 30.5 * 0.24%
Annual ROI - 138% (compunded weekly) = 1.0168 ^ (365/7) - 1

This means that, if the current network parameters remain unchanged, the investment will more than double in a year. Of course, the parameters will not remain unchanged, so this will not be fully realized.

I will mention again that I am making a personal commitment to do whatever it takes to abide by the contract, regardless of the success of any mining operations I may have.
Thank you very much for the way you dealt with this, I was the person with the bids on 0.35 and I am very happy with the way you dealt with it. As I did not loose anything and got my shares at the price I wanted to :) So far you have been running this very professionally
//DeaDTerra


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 03, 2012, 08:42:43 PM
Well, it appears that the streamlined, deterministic nature of this bond isn't attracting that much interest. So I'd like to press further the advantage of the offering in terms of pure performance numbers. Re-evaluating my strategy of utilizing BFL products, it seems safe to offer bonds at a new, low price of 0.28 BTC. Since I'm still only issuing a small number of shares, I'm willing to take the risk that I'm wrong.

Once again I do not want early adopters (and current bidders) to be worse off than buyers at the new price. Given that there already are bids at 0.35 BTC, my exact order of operations was:

1. Pay a bonus 0.05 BTC per bond.
2. Issue at 0.35 BTC.
3. Pay a bonus 0.07 BTC per bond.
4. Issue at 0.28 BTC.
Thank you very much for the way you dealt with this, I was the person with the bids on 0.35 and I am very happy with the way you dealt with it. As I did not loose anything and got my shares at the price I wanted to :) So far you have been running this very professionally
//DeaDTerra
Thank you for your support. I'm still learning.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on March 03, 2012, 09:10:16 PM
The demo version of GLBSE2.0 has been updated.

Since this is going to be the system you guys will be using it very soon please go over to http://dev.glbse.com and give it a try.

Create a new share, sell them (create a fake account to test buying them), create some new motions, pay dividends and play around in general.

2.0 is a big step away from the current system, and it's important that you're ready for the change over.

Here's the release notes
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=60489.msg781561#msg781561


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ribuck on March 03, 2012, 09:18:33 PM
Well, it appears that the streamlined, deterministic nature of this bond isn't attracting that much interest.
Oh, don't assume that. This is by far the most interesting asset seen so far at GLBSE.

But GLBSE as a platform doesn't exactly make life easy for new investors. (Why is PureMining not listed under the "Listed Companies" link on the GLBSE home page, for example?)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 03, 2012, 09:34:45 PM
Well, it appears that the streamlined, deterministic nature of this bond isn't attracting that much interest.
Oh, don't assume that. This is by far the most interesting asset seen so far at GLBSE.
Others have also expressed this sentiment, and it's great to hear - but it's moot if not accompanied by people actually buying.

It could be argued that I'm being impatient, but it's a fast-paced world, and I don't really expect more uptake later on if there was little during the excitement of the original announcement.

But GLBSE as a platform doesn't exactly make life easy for new investors.
To be honest I was hoping to attract "old" investors who are currently invested in other mining assets. Also, GLBSE has its faults but I don't think the barrier of entry is too large. For me as an issuer it was a bit intimidating until I realized the "contract builder" is completely irrelevant. Once one creates an account it gets the job done.

Anyway, the trading platform used is one of the components that go into the measurement of level of interest. If there is interest but not on this platform, it subtracts from the valuation.

(Why is PureMining not listed under the "Listed Companies" link on the GLBSE home page, for example?)
No idea, I think this is some sort of legacy thing. When GLBSE 2.0 is live I'll make more effort to get some relevant exposure.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ribuck on March 04, 2012, 03:12:47 PM
... it's a fast-paced world, and I don't really expect more uptake later on if there was little during the excitement of the original announcement...
I think you're being impatient. Probably only 5% of the readers of this forum have even seen this thread so far. And anyway, people need to hear about a new concept at least three times before it sinks in.

GLBSE is being rapidly improved as a platform (although it has a long way to go still), but the commitment seems to be there.

And your own reputation at GLBSE will increase over time as more dividends get paid out. Sure, you have plenty of reputation elsewhere, but not everyone at GLBSE follows those other places.

So I hope you will stick with this platform long-term, and offer many interesting and innovative assets.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: brendio on March 05, 2012, 02:18:02 AM
Well that price drop seemed to move them. I just went thinking I'd buy some more, and they are all gone.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 05, 2012, 05:30:44 AM
The initial offering of 200 bonds is sold out.

I've also put up a bid myself to act as a baseline for liquidity.

... it's a fast-paced world, and I don't really expect more uptake later on if there was little during the excitement of the original announcement...
I think you're being impatient. Probably only 5% of the readers of this forum have even seen this thread so far. And anyway, people need to hear about a new concept at least three times before it sinks in.

GLBSE is being rapidly improved as a platform (although it has a long way to go still), but the commitment seems to be there.

And your own reputation at GLBSE will increase over time as more dividends get paid out. Sure, you have plenty of reputation elsewhere, but not everyone at GLBSE follows those other places.

So I hope you will stick with this platform long-term, and offer many interesting and innovative assets.
I think it's healthy that the bonds are now in the hands of investors and that increases in exposure, trust and demand will drive up the price. What will really affect my bottom line is what the valuation will be when I issue larger amounts.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ribuck on March 05, 2012, 10:54:21 AM
Well that price drop seemed to move them.
It's not surprising that the bond is very price-sensitive. It seems highly likely that mining difficulty will continue to increase with the introduction of FPGA mining, but how rapid will the takeup be?

The interesting counterpoint is whether there will also be some difficulty decrease when the block reward changes in December. Personally, I doubt it. When something is known about so far in advance, people factor it into their plans.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 05, 2012, 11:08:17 AM
Well that price drop seemed to move them.
The interesting counterpoint is whether there will also be some difficulty decrease when the block reward changes in December. Personally, I doubt it. When something is known about so far in advance, people factor it into their plans.
There will be some difficulty decrease at that point, because marginal miners will pull the plug when it swaps from profit to loss. But in addition there will be a slowing down of the increase before that, as people who would otherwise purchase hardware will avoid it due to the imminent decrease in profitability.

The price of BTC will also be affected; the simplest projection is that if you compare a short time before the halving with a short time after it, the difficulty will drop by 2^(1/3), the price will increase by 2^(1/3) and the fiat profit per hash will decrease by 2^(1/3).


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: brendio on March 06, 2012, 01:27:43 AM
Any plans to issue more any time soon, or are you waiting for the market to set the price first?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on March 06, 2012, 01:43:53 AM
I am so annoyed the Bitclockers fiasco made me miss this! It's the first investment on GLBSE that I'd consider purchasing.

Please post as soon as you're taking new investors. I have some lazy coins I need to do some work for me.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 06, 2012, 09:36:48 AM
I am so annoyed the Bitclockers fiasco made me miss this! It's the first investment on GLBSE that I'd consider purchasing.

Please post as soon as you're taking new investors. I have some lazy coins I need to do some work for me.
Strictly speaking you don't have to wait that long; you can put up a bid at a price which is attractive for you and hope some early adopter will want to cash out at a profit.

I will of course post when new bonds are issued.

Any plans to issue more any time soon, or are you waiting for the market to set the price first?
I can't guarantee anything one way or the other, but I expect about 1 month from now to be the general timeframe for making another issue.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 09, 2012, 02:27:16 PM
There was a bug in retrieving difficulty for new blocks. Because of it, coupons paid for the last 3 blocks were about 9% higher than should have been. Since the mistake was in favor of bondholders, no further action is needed; and hopefully the bug is fixed now.

For reference, the amounts that were actually paid were:

Code:
170351    Mar 09 2012 12:39:10  1331296750          180784    1376302.26789 50        0.0015291719 Paid
170015    Mar 07 2012 10:26:06  1331115966          202337    1376302.26789 50        0.0017114792 Paid
169679    Mar 05 2012 02:13:49  1330913629          237283    1376302.26789 50        0.0020070720 Paid

The amounts which should have been paid, and are now reflected on the website:

Code:
170351    Mar 09 2012 12:39:10  1331296750          180784    1496978.59502 50        0.0014059004 Paid
170015    Mar 07 2012 10:26:06  1331115966          202337    1496978.59502 50        0.0015735113 Paid
169679    Mar 05 2012 02:13:49  1330913629          237283    1496978.59502 50        0.0018452753 Paid



Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 11, 2012, 02:47:27 PM
I intend to issue 300 new bonds later this week, at a price that is to be determined.

Current bidders should be advised that if the issue price is lower than their bid, they will pay the full price they bid.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 12, 2012, 08:52:57 PM
I have issued 300 new bonds, for a total of 500. They are offered at 0.32 BTC.

I can now also disclose that my obligations are backed by an agreement with Inaba (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=8198) to run mining hardware for me in his datacenter. So far I have ordered 13 BFL single units, which are sufficient to cover about 10,000 bonds. (Since this partnership was originally conceived as part of my own desire to invest in mining, this should in no way be taken as an indication of the number of bonds I intend to issue.)

ROI projections:
Issue price - 0.32 BTC
Difficulty - 1496979
Block reward - 50 BTC
Daily return - 672 uBTC (0.21% ROI) = 86400 * 50 * 10^6 / (1496979 * 2^32)
Weekly ROI - 1.47% (linear, non-compounded) = 7 * 0.21%
Monthly ROI - 6.40% (linear, non-compounded) = 30.5 * 0.21%
Annual ROI - 114% (compunded weekly) = 1.0147 ^ (365/7) - 1


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: marked on March 13, 2012, 03:25:05 PM

What was with the 0.000000 dividend payment yesterday?

marked


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 13, 2012, 03:50:44 PM
What was with the 0.000000 dividend payment yesterday?

marked
It was a test to see if I can work around GLBSE's limitations in handling payments by using multiple accounts (which seemed a better idea than trying it out on a real payment, and risking yet another excessive coupon). It succeeded.

It was actually 1 satoshi per bond, but GLBSE's Javascript rounds the displayed amount.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on March 15, 2012, 02:17:33 PM
I'm just after getting back from London(gone since Tuesday),  charts.glbse.com is not showing any updates since the 12th.

For the moment, all the latest trades for GLBSE can be found on it's twitter feed here (http://twitter.com/#!/GLBSE/).

I'm contacting the operator of charts to find out what the story is.

Nefario


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 16, 2012, 09:35:00 AM
Bonds are sold out for now.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: alexmat on March 21, 2012, 12:02:54 PM
Any plans on issuing new bonds?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 21, 2012, 01:33:10 PM
Any plans on issuing new bonds?
There is a possibility I will issue new bonds next week.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: alexmat on March 22, 2012, 02:18:17 AM
How many and at roughly what price?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 22, 2012, 05:12:46 AM
How many and at roughly what price?
It will probably be 500 bonds. I don't know the price yet, and in any case specifying it in advance would significantly affect the market.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: alexmat on March 22, 2012, 05:15:17 AM
How many and at roughly what price?
It will probably be 500 bonds. I don't know the price yet, and in any case specifying it in advance would significantly affect the market.

Appreciate the info. I'm not sure the market is big or liquid enough to matter, but it's not too much of a concern. Very interesting asset though, will be keeping an eye on it.

Cheers.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Sukrim on March 22, 2012, 07:57:59 PM
If you're interested in buying you can anyways put an offer at your desired price on GLBSE and just wait if either someone sells their bonds or Meni issues some at that price or lower.

@Meni: Very interesting enterprise - I would from experience however strongly recommend to automate payments as much as possible (e.g. Write a script that checks for these key blocks, extracts the necessary info and you just have to press enter to send a few more BTC for the next payment to GLBSE + issue the current dividend).

Great to see a different twist on the (interestingly nowadays "standard") "mining financed by GLBSE" thingie.

As I have already quite some experience with selling MH/s values for a fixed amount of BTC I'm not sure if I'd buy in anytime soon at ~1/3rd BTC a million hashes/sec but as your transparency is great everyone can make up their own mind and do their own calculations.

Actually I thought of doing something like this too, but it would just be too easy and tempting to do it ponzi style instead. Maybe you could battle this by mining on p2pool or Eligius and sign a message with the private key of the payout address with the generations inside? This would prove in the blockchain that you are capable of mining fresh coins and not just using the ones you got from bonds (which at the moment would be _very_ easy). As you calculated yourself in the starting post - even without selling new bonds you would be able to keep this running for nearly a year.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 22, 2012, 09:51:32 PM
If you're interested in buying you can anyways put an offer at your desired price on GLBSE and just wait if either someone sells their bonds or Meni issues some at that price or lower.
One problem with that is that if the issue price is lower than his bid, he'll pay more than he could have gotten it otherwise. To my disappointment, it is currently impossible in GLBSE to force the issue to take place at the lower price.

@Meni: Very interesting enterprise - I would from experience however strongly recommend to automate payments as much as possible (e.g. Write a script that checks for these key blocks, extracts the necessary info and you just have to press enter to send a few more BTC for the next payment to GLBSE + issue the current dividend).
Without extensive validation (which I am not currently equipped to do), I wouldn't trust a script to do any more automatically than it currently does. I have payment amounts automatically calculated and email notifications of new key blocks. I'm also training my family to handle payments in my absence (in fact I'm holding off payment on the recent block #172367 to save it for a training session in a few hours).

Actually I thought of doing something like this too, but it would just be too easy and tempting to do it ponzi style instead. Maybe you could battle this by mining on p2pool or Eligius and sign a message with the private key of the payout address with the generations inside? This would prove in the blockchain that you are capable of mining fresh coins and not just using the ones you got from bonds (which at the moment would be _very_ easy). As you calculated yourself in the starting post - even without selling new bonds you would be able to keep this running for nearly a year.
Inaba is in custody of the actual hardware (which hasn't arrived yet), so he should be able to confirm there is hardware owned by me. I've come to devise this asset after a train of thought starting from wanting to invest in mining, so I have no intention to bet against that (and in fact will likely almost always have spare capacity as my own investment).

But my claim to legitimacy rests primarily on
 - Planning the issue so that even if I had no hardware, I would be able to cover my obligations from personal assets (buying back if needed);
 - Committing to do so should the need arise due to unforeseeable circumstances; and
 - Staking my reputation on this commitment.

So it basically boils down to how much I am trusted not to run away with the money. This will likely be a more limiting factor as I scale up the venture, and I will be looking for ways to inspire confidence.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 25, 2012, 10:30:16 AM
GLBSE 2.0 is out and it's absolutely awful.

What's worse, it seems GLBSE 1.0 can no longer be used. (Either that or the database locked up again.) So I imported my accounts, and after much searching managed to locate the feature to pay dividends. But trying to use it leads to an "internal server error". Because of this, coupons for block #172703 from last night are still pending.

I've contacted nefario about this and I hope it will be resolved soon.

To whomever it may concern, the fact that using GLBSE 2.0 is intolerable is also delaying my plans to issue new bonds.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: DeaDTerra on March 25, 2012, 10:38:46 AM
Give Nefario some time, I am sure that the bugs in GLBSE V2 will be fixed over the next couple of days :)
//DeaDTerra


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: rjk on March 25, 2012, 11:24:49 AM
You had the opportunity to test the beta before it went live and help him fix any issues. Last I saw, only mila was actively poking the beta and finding bugs.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 25, 2012, 12:10:38 PM
You had the opportunity to test the beta before it went live and help him fix any issues. Last I saw, only mila was actively poking the beta and finding bugs.
I don't have any spare time to dedicate to beta-testing this software and I did not at any point volunteer to do so.

GLBSE is a service provided by nefario and I have already paid 20 BTC in fees for this service. It is not reasonable to expect that I should donate my time as well.

What is reasonable to expect is that the problems would be fixed before forcing everyone to switch to the new version.


But that's all missing the point. The bugs are not what I'm disappointed about. Everything about GLBSE 2.0 is more rigid, less intuitive, less usable, and less compatible with a bond model than 1.0.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on March 25, 2012, 02:25:55 PM
Dividends bug has been fixed, you can now make dividend payments, one of the good points about GLBSE2.0 is assets now show full dividend history. I will be importing GLBSE1.0 history in the later part of this week.

Meni, every effort has been made to make GLBSE2.0 bug free, it's been developed in the open with a public beta, plenty of bugs as a result were found and fixed.

One of the problems though in moving from a testing environment to a production one, is that it's not possible to predict every possibility. Things that did work during testing, for various reasons broke on moving to production. Many of them were caught and fixed before launch, some were not.

The public beta was also there so users could become familiar with the new interface, not just test for bugs, it was also used to get feedback from the community on what you want from your exchange.
Quote
GLBSE 2.0 is out and it's absolutely awful....................

To whomever it may concern, the fact that using GLBSE 2.0 is intolerable is also delaying my plans to issue new bonds.

Unless you spell out specifically whats wrong and what you need I won't be able to build it into the system. Give me something to go on so that I can build the functionality into it.

Please keep in mind that some things, such as transfers have just not been implemented yet, and will be towards the end of the week.

GLBSE1.0 and 2.0 are two completely separate, different systems, they cannot operate or interact with each other. Give me some more time and I'll bring in the  history from 1.0

Nefario


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 25, 2012, 02:48:17 PM
Dividends bug has been fixed, you can now make dividend payments
I tried it again and it still doesn't work.

Meni, every effort has been made to make GLBSE2.0 bug free, it's been developed in the open with a public beta, plenty of bugs as a result were found and fixed.

One of the problems though in moving from a testing environment to a production one, is that it's not possible to predict every possibility. Things that did work during testing, for various reasons broke on moving to production. Many of them were caught and fixed before launch, some were not.
I understand that, bugs will be bugs, they are not what I'm upset about (but see more below).

The public beta was also there so users could become familiar with the new interface, not just test for bugs, it was also used to get feedback from the community on what you want from your exchange.
Only after the major bugs are fixed it's reasonable to try out the interface and provide feedback.

Quote
Unless you spell out specifically whats wrong and what you need I won't be able to build it into the system. Give me something to go on so that I can build the functionality into it.
I'll contact you about specifics.

GLBSE1.0 and 2.0 are two completely separate, different systems, they cannot operate or interact with each other.
For this exact reason the upgrade should have been handled differently. (I'm assuming GLBSE 1.0 was disabled because it did not work; please tell me if this is wrong and it was just a DB lock).

Don't twist everyone's arms and force them to upgrade at launch. Offer a transition period and let those who are happily using the existing platform continue to do so for at least a month or two. Those who prefer the new version and want to start a new asset or migrate their old asset can do so. Any bugs and usability issues can be found and fixed. When it's stable you can more actively encourage people to migrate or at least try it out; only after some time you should forcefully upgrade.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on March 25, 2012, 03:35:16 PM
Dividends bug has been fixed, you can now make dividend payments
I tried it again and it still doesn't work.
Investigating, I'll post here when it's working.

Don't twist everyone's arms and force them to upgrade at launch. Offer a transition period and let those who are happily using the existing platform continue to do so for at least a month or two. Those who prefer the new version and want to start a new asset or migrate their old asset can do so. Any bugs and usability issues can be found and fixed. When it's stable you can more actively encourage people to migrate or at least try it out; only after some time you should forcefully upgrade.

This isn't possible, the two systems cannot interact and cannot run side by side. They don't use the same dbms, the database structure is different, different application framework, even different methods of authentication. 2.0 has a normal web interface, 1.0 uses a client written in Javascript that uses public key cryptography (which most uses didn't understand, I spent so much time recovering lost accounts) to authenticate. Trying to maintain the two systems would be a complete nightmare.

Give me a little more time to work out the niggles.

Nefario


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 25, 2012, 04:20:33 PM
Don't twist everyone's arms and force them to upgrade at launch. Offer a transition period and let those who are happily using the existing platform continue to do so for at least a month or two. Those who prefer the new version and want to start a new asset or migrate their old asset can do so. Any bugs and usability issues can be found and fixed. When it's stable you can more actively encourage people to migrate or at least try it out; only after some time you should forcefully upgrade.
This isn't possible, the two systems cannot interact and cannot run side by side. They don't use the same dbms, the database structure is different, different application framework, even different methods of authentication. 2.0 has a normal web interface, 1.0 uses a client written in Javascript that uses public key cryptography (which most uses didn't understand, I spent so much time recovering lost accounts) to authenticate. Trying to maintain the two systems would be a complete nightmare.

Give me a little more time to work out the niggles.
Sounds like it isn't impossible, just requires spending more time than you have available. This is completely understandable, and I of course respect and appreciate your efforts, but that's not going to change how I feel about the upgrade. It was a complete shock. Yes, I could have tried to prepare better but my time is limited too.


PS What happens to asset holders who have not yet migrated to 2.0 when I pay dividends?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on March 25, 2012, 04:28:25 PM

PS What happens to asset holders who have not yet migrates to 2.0 when I pay dividends?

That, is actually a very good question, you can be sure that they also get their dividends, they just need to claim their account to get paid.

Nefario.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on March 26, 2012, 12:57:05 AM
GLBSE is back up again, have another go at paying dividends.

The problem was caused by imported data from GLBSE1.0, it was a case of a single account that had your shares that was stopping the whole process.

Sorry for the delay.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 26, 2012, 05:36:48 AM
GLBSE is back up again, have another go at paying dividends.

The problem was caused by imported data from GLBSE1.0, it was a case of a single account that had your shares that was stopping the whole process.

Sorry for the delay.
Thanks.

Now when I look at the asset page, I get the following entry for the dividends paid:

Code:
Payment date         | Total paid | Shares paid | Payment per share
2012-03-25 10:33 0.72943025 353            0.00206637
0.72943025 is indeed the total that should have been paid. But it should have been paid to 500 shares, at 0.00145886 per share.

So what does this mean?
1. Did asset holders receive the described dividend?
2. Was it deducted from my account?
3. Did the holders of the other 147 shares get anything?
4. How do I give payment to them?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: alexmat on March 26, 2012, 05:43:57 AM
If it's any help, I transferred my account before the dividend was paid and it is not reflected in my balance:

Code:
Amount         Address                 Date
45.52791946 GLBSE1MIGRATION 2012-03-25 06:42:39

My account total is still 45.52791946 even though I own some shares of PUREMINING


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: alexmat on March 26, 2012, 05:50:43 AM
Also, I have no way of accessing my transaction records on the old site, so I can't verify when the previous dividend happened. Will it be possible to access the old records?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on March 26, 2012, 09:51:53 AM
Also, I have no way of accessing my transaction records on the old site, so I can't verify when the previous dividend happened. Will it be possible to access the old records?

Yes, but later this week, early next week.

You can see the divided on the puremining asset page.

Is 0.2BTC a normal dividend payment or a test one?

Nefario.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ribuck on March 26, 2012, 09:54:31 AM
Code:
Payment date         | Total paid | Shares paid | Payment per share
2012-03-25 10:33 0.72943025 353            0.00206637
Perhaps 353 is actually the number of shareholders, many of whom own more than one share?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: server on March 26, 2012, 10:01:15 AM
Now when I look at the asset page, I get the following entry for the dividends paid:

Code:
Payment date         | Total paid | Shares paid | Payment per share
2012-03-25 10:33 0.72943025 353            0.00206637
0.72943025 is indeed the total that should have been paid. But it should have been paid to 500 shares, at 0.00145886 per share.

So what does this mean?
1. Did asset holders receive the described dividend?
2. Was it deducted from my account?
3. Did the holders of the other 147 shares get anything?
4. How do I give payment to them?

I did not receive your dividend.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 26, 2012, 10:03:47 AM
You can see the divided on the puremining asset page.
That's kind of the problem, there is an entry in the asset page but we don't know if it was deducted and credited properly.

Is 0.2BTC a normal dividend payment or a test one?
If you mean the 0.72943025 BTC total paid, it's a real payment. I'm guessing it was registered when I first tried to pay dividend. But instead of paying 0.00206637 each to 353 shares, it should have paid 0.00145886 each to 500 shares.

It would be ideal if you can make sure the other 147 shares get paid. If all else fails I can do another 0.72943025 BTC payment, but I want to be reasonably assured that it will be distributed to everyone, including those who haven't migrated yet.

Was a dividend really paid at all? I'm not sure it was deducted at all from my account. If not I'll just try again to make a payment.


Code:
Payment date         | Total paid | Shares paid | Payment per share
2012-03-25 10:33 0.72943025 353             0.00206637
Perhaps 353 is actually the number of shareholders, many of whom own more than one share?
I doubt it.

I did not receive your dividend.
Did you import your account to 2.0? When?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: mila on March 26, 2012, 10:14:48 AM
can it be that not migrated accounts are holding the 500 - 353 shares and that screws up the dividend payment?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 26, 2012, 10:18:07 AM
can it be that not migrated accounts are holding the 500 - 353 shares and that screws up the dividend payment?
That's my guess too.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on March 26, 2012, 10:25:18 AM
You can see the divided on the puremining asset page.
That's kind of the problem, there is an entry in the asset page but we don't know if it was deducted and credited properly.

Is 0.2BTC a normal dividend payment or a test one?
If you mean the 0.72943025 BTC total paid, it's a real payment. I'm guessing it was registered when I first tried to pay dividend. But instead of paying 0.00206637 each to 353 shares, it should have paid 0.00145886 each to 500 shares.

It would be ideal if you can make sure the other 147 shares get paid. If all else fails I can do another 0.72943025 BTC payment, but I want to be reasonable assured that it will be distributed to everyone, including those who haven't migrated yet.

Was a dividend really paid at all? I'm not sure it was deducted at all from my account. If not I'll just try again to make a payment.


Code:
Payment date         | Total paid | Shares paid | Payment per share
2012-03-25 10:33 0.72943025 353             0.00206637
Perhaps 353 is actually the number of shareholders, many of whom own more than one share?
I doubt it.

I did not receive your dividend.
Did you import your account to 2.0? When?

I'll send you the same amount in BTC to make another payment. It's going to mean that some users get a double payment but no one misses oemail me a bitcoin address to send to.

Nefario


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: server on March 26, 2012, 10:29:01 AM
I did not receive your dividend.
Did you import your account to 2.0? When?

GLBSE1MIGRATION    2012-03-25 07:40:29

[edit]
Claimed my old GLBSE 1.0 account again with the code and now I received your dividend.

Amount    Asset    Date
xxxxxxxx    PUREMINING    2012-03-26 06:32:38

I received 0.00145886 per share.

[/edit]


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 26, 2012, 10:44:22 AM
I'll send you the same amount in BTC to make another payment. It's going to mean that some users get a double payment but no one misses oemail me a bitcoin address to send to.
As far as I can tell I wasn't charged the first time, so a refund is not necessary. It also doesn't seem anyone got paid.

I've made a payment again. Seems to be working now, reports on receiving the coupon are welcome.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: alexmat on March 26, 2012, 11:09:57 AM
I've received a dividend and it was credited correctly.

Thanks to all involved for getting this resolved. Although I am a little uneasy about the reliability of the system, I am at least happy I can rely on the willingness of the people involved to work towards finding resolutions.

Cheers   :)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on March 27, 2012, 08:02:47 AM
Just moved over my account now - not sure what's been paid since I can't acces the history on glbse1, and there's no history in glbse2, just the change over amount. I'm sure exactly the amount that was in there, so I can't shed any light on the subject of the 'missing payouts.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 28, 2012, 08:47:11 PM
If all goes well, I will issue 500 new bonds early next week.

The issue price is to be determined, but it will almost certainly be significantly lower than the current highest bid of 0.5 BTC. If the issue functionality will work similarly to how it was in 1.0, high bidders may end up paying more than they could have, so please take this into consideration.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: mila on March 28, 2012, 09:34:05 PM
If all goes well, I will issue 500 new bonds early next week.

The issue price is to be determined, but it will almost certainly be significantly lower than the current highest bid of 0.5 BTC. If the issue functionality will work similarly to how it was in 1.0, high bidders may end up paying more than they could have, so please take this into consideration.

I was asking myself the same question, how will be buy orders filled if you issue new shares at lower price?
it might be also the case that they would trade at the issuing price.

edit: I should probably read some theory book about trading and how market should work


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 29, 2012, 07:45:20 AM
If all goes well, I will issue 500 new bonds early next week.

The issue price is to be determined, but it will almost certainly be significantly lower than the current highest bid of 0.5 BTC. If the issue functionality will work similarly to how it was in 1.0, high bidders may end up paying more than they could have, so please take this into consideration.

I was asking myself the same question, how will be buy orders filled if you issue new shares at lower price?
it might be also the case that they would trade at the issuing price.

edit: I should probably read some theory book about trading and how market should work
I don't know how it works in the traditional world. In GLBSE 1.0 new issued bonds are sold normally from my account, so they will be matched against existing bids. I asked Nefario once for a feature to force the bonds to be sold at the lower price (which I think is fairer, as bidders will no longer have to worry about new issues); if this is not how it already is in 2.0, I'll remind him of this.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on March 29, 2012, 10:54:16 PM
If all goes well, I will issue 500 new bonds early next week.

The issue price is to be determined, but it will almost certainly be significantly lower than the current highest bid of 0.5 BTC. If the issue functionality will work similarly to how it was in 1.0, high bidders may end up paying more than they could have, so please take this into consideration.

I was asking myself the same question, how will be buy orders filled if you issue new shares at lower price?
it might be also the case that they would trade at the issuing price.

edit: I should probably read some theory book about trading and how market should work
I don't know how it works in the traditional world. In GLBSE 1.0 new issued bonds are sold normally from my account, so they will be matched against existing bids. I asked Nefario once for a feature to force the bonds to be sold at the lower price (which I think is fairer, as bidders will no longer have to worry about new issues); if this is not how it already is in 2.0, I'll remind him of this.

When you say "force sell at a lower price" do you mean you want to sell only for the price that is speicifed? i.e., that if you sell for 0.5BTC, and someone offers 1BTC that the transaction will still go through for 0.5BTC?

Sorry I've been offline the last few hours, I'm just after arriving back from Latvia.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: alexmat on March 30, 2012, 02:23:05 AM
I asked Nefario once for a feature to force the bonds to be sold at the lower price (which I think is fairer, as bidders will no longer have to worry about new issues); if this is not how it already is in 2.0, I'll remind him of this.

Just curious, why do you care if the price is "fair", shouldn't you let the market price the asset? As long as you are upfront about new shares being issued ahead of time, people have all the information they need to make a bid.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 30, 2012, 05:04:26 AM
When you say "force sell at a lower price" do you mean you want to sell only for the price that is speicifed? i.e., that if you sell for 0.5BTC, and someone offers 1BTC that the transaction will still go through for 0.5BTC?
Yes.

I asked Nefario once for a feature to force the bonds to be sold at the lower price (which I think is fairer, as bidders will no longer have to worry about new issues); if this is not how it already is in 2.0, I'll remind him of this.

Just curious, why do you care if the price is "fair", shouldn't you let the market price the asset? As long as you are upfront about new shares being issued ahead of time, people have all the information they need to make a bid.
I don't think the current system allows the market to be efficient in setting the price. Each issue upsets the balance and bidders need to worry that if there's an issue their bids will be much more lossy than with normal market movements.

There's information disparity in announcing new issues in advance based on when people browse the forums. If someone learns of the issue before the bidders, he can execute their bid planning to buy back at the issue. This still means that bidders can't safely bid when future issues are a big unknown.

It is slightly better than if I hadn't announced in advance with the current system; but ideally, I should be able to issue new shares without any prior announcement.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on March 30, 2012, 02:33:40 PM
From what I understand, what meni wants is to be able to set a fixed sale price and not have buyers pay more for it.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: mila on March 30, 2012, 02:53:32 PM
From what I understand, what meni wants is to be able to set a fixed sale price and not have buyers pay more for it.

exactly.

if new shares (bonds) are about to be released and somebody places a buy @100 btc, he should pay only .40 or what the actual new shares IPO would be.

not sure that merging shares has been discussed already. Kind of like the idea.
also split shares would be nice feature (replace 1 old with X new)

and I can think of some more options how to issue new shares ...


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 30, 2012, 02:54:10 PM
From what I understand, what meni wants is to be able to set a fixed sale price and not have buyers pay more for it.
Why not make a second IPO with a different ticker and
then merge it with the first one once all shares are sold ?
Is that possible? And more importantly, why on earth would I want to do that? Making an IPO is cumbersome and costly. Having to keep track of two equivalent tickers until they are merged, and the merger itself, are sources of difficulty and confusion.

PS Ways to split and merge assets are going to be useful for an unrelated asset I have in mind.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: mila on March 30, 2012, 04:26:55 PM
@fees for issuing new shares for existing assets, that would be free of charge


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on March 30, 2012, 05:39:23 PM
@fees for issuing new shares for existing assets, that would be free of charge


That'd be nice, but probably Nefario's call.



No, mila is correct, there won't be any fees for issuing more shares.

What I will also do, specifically for bonds is allow new sub assets to be created for free (or very little).

So for example, an asset named BOND would be able to create a BOND.12.JAN, then BOND.12.FEB etc.
I'll probably even put a special interface just for bonds.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: mila on March 30, 2012, 05:52:48 PM
@fees for issuing new shares for existing assets, that would be free of charge

That'd be nice, but probably Nefario's call.

Nefario wrote that elsewhere and I was merely quoting him

I may not know the difference between bond and share but reading & writing about stuff I read I can

I'd welcome cheaper creation of sub-assets in general
does glbse know / recognize ticker.sub as a sub-asset or is that concatenated automatically if the new asset is issued by an asset manager (instead of general user)?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on March 30, 2012, 07:57:07 PM
@fees for issuing new shares for existing assets, that would be free of charge

That'd be nice, but probably Nefario's call.

Nefario wrote that elsewhere and I was merely quoting him

I may not know the difference between bond and share but reading & writing about stuff I read I can

I'd welcome cheaper creation of sub-assets in general
does glbse know / recognize ticker.sub as a sub-asset or is that concatenated automatically if the new asset is issued by an asset manager (instead of general user)?

GLBSE knows base asset names. E.g. I have GLBSE, then only I'm allowed to create GLBSE.SUB


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: mila on March 31, 2012, 06:03:06 AM
does glbse know / recognize ticker.sub as a sub-asset or is that concatenated automatically if the new asset is issued by an asset manager (instead of general user)?

GLBSE knows base asset names. E.g. I have GLBSE, then only I'm allowed to create GLBSE.SUB

but how? which user can (can't ) do that?
is the glbse base name owned by the user or by the asset manager account? do I have to enter glbse.sub in the ticker field or is it enough to type SUB and the name would be fixed by glbse depending on the user that is issuing the asset?

 think I'll figure it out in dev environment


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on April 01, 2012, 01:26:18 AM
does glbse know / recognize ticker.sub as a sub-asset or is that concatenated automatically if the new asset is issued by an asset manager (instead of general user)?

GLBSE knows base asset names. E.g. I have GLBSE, then only I'm allowed to create GLBSE.SUB

but how? which user can (can't ) do that?
is the glbse base name owned by the user or by the asset manager account? do I have to enter glbse.sub in the ticker field or is it enough to type SUB and the name would be fixed by glbse depending on the user that is issuing the asset?

 think I'll figure it out in dev environment

It's owned by users accounts.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 02, 2012, 04:21:51 AM
Coupon payment summary for March 2012 (total 0.020971201 BTC per bond):

Code:
Block number Timestamp        Timestamp (Unix) Elapsed time Difficulty Block reward Coupon    Status
173711    Mar 31 2012 10:48:33  1333190913          191299    1626553.48133 50        0.0013691609 Paid
173375    Mar 29 2012 05:40:14  1332999614          189190    1498294.36282 50        0.0014699791 Paid
173039    Mar 27 2012 01:07:04  1332810424          188874    1498294.36282 50        0.0014675239 Paid
172703    Mar 24 2012 20:39:10  1332621550          187759    1498294.36282 50        0.0014588605 Paid
172367    Mar 22 2012 16:29:51  1332433791          182131    1498294.36282 50        0.0014151317 Paid
172031    Mar 20 2012 13:54:20  1332251660          188758    1498294.36282 50        0.0014666226 Paid
171695    Mar 18 2012 09:28:22  1332062902          177628    1498294.36282 50        0.0013801441 Paid
171359    Mar 16 2012 08:07:54  1331885274          216701    1496978.59502 50        0.0016852156 Paid
171023    Mar 13 2012 19:56:13  1331668573          183894    1496978.59502 50        0.0014300859 Paid
170687    Mar 11 2012 16:51:19  1331484679          187929    1496978.59502 50        0.0014614648 Paid
170351    Mar 09 2012 12:39:10  1331296750          180784    1496978.59502 50        0.0014059004 Paid
170015    Mar 07 2012 10:26:06  1331115966          202337    1496978.59502 50        0.0015735113 Paid
169679    Mar 05 2012 02:13:49  1330913629          237283    1496978.59502 50        0.0018452753 Paid
169343    Mar 02 2012 08:19:06  1330676346          182339    1376302.26789 50        0.0015423250 Paid


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 02, 2012, 04:22:22 AM
I have issued 500 new bonds (a total of 1000), at 0.36 BTC per bond.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on April 02, 2012, 06:24:00 AM
Well, that sold out fast. Glad I had an order in.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 02, 2012, 07:09:59 AM
Well, that sold out fast. Glad I had an order in.
Yeah, demand had some time to build up while we were waiting for issuing to be implemented.

On that note, I no longer consider this a proof of concept, there's serious money involved, and I plan to issue more bonds over the next 6 weeks.

For now, I will issue 1000 more bonds later this week.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: roomservice on April 02, 2012, 07:19:20 AM
Well, that sold out fast. Glad I had an order in.
Yeah, demand had some time to build up while we were waiting for issuing to be implemented.

On that note, I no longer consider this a proof of concept, there's serious money involved, and I plan to issue more bonds over the next 6 weeks.

For now, I will issue 1000 more bonds later this week.

Awesome! Hope i'am able to get a peace of cake this time!


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: mila on April 02, 2012, 08:38:50 AM
Awesome! Hope i'am able to get a peace of cake this time!

just don't leave open bids @.7 or any other significant price above the sale price from Meni or you end up paying a lot more (see history price graph and twitter feed for this issue's data)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: server on April 02, 2012, 08:59:27 AM
Did you "buy" any of the new bonds yourself ?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 02, 2012, 09:55:03 AM
Did you "buy" any of the new bonds yourself ?
I bought 10 bonds, mostly for testing purposes.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: jamesg on April 02, 2012, 09:58:03 AM
I have issued 500 new bonds (a total of 1000), at 0.36 BTC per bond.

Very interesting. Seems this bond is doing well.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: labestiol on April 02, 2012, 12:27:44 PM
Did you "buy" any of the new bonds yourself ?
I bought 10 bonds, mostly for testing purposes.

Ok, but if you buy bonds from yourself then you get these for free, you pay yourself...

Do you know what the total numbers of bonds will be ?

I'm asking this because I had 10% of your bonds but overnight my part is reduced to 5% because you doubled the number of bonds.

I guess the dividend will also be 50% less for bondholders that didn't double their number of bonds :(

It's a bond, not a company share... Your dividend coupon will stay exactly the same, as described in the formula in the first post


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 02, 2012, 05:29:59 PM
Did you "buy" any of the new bonds yourself ?
I bought 10 bonds, mostly for testing purposes.

Ok, but if you buy bonds from yourself then you get these for free, you pay yourself...

Do you know what the total numbers of bonds will be ?

I'm asking this because I had 10% of your bonds but overnight my part is reduced to 5% because you doubled the number of bonds.

I guess the dividend will also be 50% less for bondholders that didn't double their number of bonds :(

It's a bond, not a company share... Your dividend coupon will stay exactly the same, as described in the formula in the first post
This. The whole point is that your payments do not depend in any way on anything that I do. If you buy 50 bonds you get 50MH/s worth of payments according to a deterministic (up to external conditions) algorithm.

So buying my own bonds has no functional effect, though it could have perception effects. In any case I only keep a symbolic amount for testing purposes.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: server on April 02, 2012, 07:25:32 PM
Did you "buy" any of the new bonds yourself ?
I bought 10 bonds, mostly for testing purposes.

Ok, but if you buy bonds from yourself then you get these for free, you pay yourself...

Do you know what the total numbers of bonds will be ?

I'm asking this because I had 10% of your bonds but overnight my part is reduced to 5% because you doubled the number of bonds.

I guess the dividend will also be 50% less for bondholders that didn't double their number of bonds :(

It's a bond, not a company share... Your dividend coupon will stay exactly the same, as described in the formula in the first post
This. The whole point is that your payments do not depend in any way on anything that I do. If you buy 50 bonds you get 50MH/s worth of payments according to a deterministic (up to external conditions) algorithm.

So buying my own bonds has no functional effect, though it could have perception effects. In any case I only keep a symbolic amount for testing purposes.

Sorry, my mistake, I didn't know the difference between stocks and bonds but now I understand, thank you for explaining. :)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: labestiol on April 02, 2012, 08:20:06 PM
Are you planning to get your GLBSE account verified Meni ?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Nefario on April 02, 2012, 08:25:50 PM
Are you planning to get your GLBSE account verified Meni ?

He's going to have to wait a couple of days.

There is a backlog and I'm dealing with quite a lot ATM.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Philj on April 02, 2012, 10:32:48 PM
Just put a bid in, any idea on when you'll be releasing those additional bonds?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 03, 2012, 07:19:31 AM
Are you planning to get your GLBSE account verified Meni ?
I have already provided Nefario with some identifying information and will provide more. He is still processing it.

In case this question was inspired by the Goat issue, Nefario has multiple channels to communicate with me, and I will be actively looking for ways to minimize the probability of someone cracking my account, and to keep the potential damage in this contingency at a level I can absorb. (eg, I may request Nefario to only allow changing my password if I ok it over the phone, or to stiffen the conditions under which new bonds can be issued.)

Just put a bid in, any idea on when you'll be releasing those additional bonds?
It will probably be on Thursday or Friday.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 05, 2012, 11:42:04 AM
I issued 1000 new bonds at 0.38 BTC, for a total of 2000.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: JWU42 on April 07, 2012, 01:44:45 PM
Missed it..  >:(

EDIT:  I am new to GLBSE but cannot clearly see how to short this...


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 07, 2012, 08:29:51 PM
Missed it..  >:(
Don't worry, more bonds will be issued in the future. In any case it might be worth it to put up a bid at a reasonable price.

EDIT:  I am new to GLBSE but cannot clearly see how to short this...
GLBSE doesn't currently allow doing this. You can do it in a person-to-person way; find someone willing to lend some bonds to you, and agree to pay them back at a later time + all coupons in this time period + rental fee. Sell them, and hopefully buy at a lower price to pay back.

The possibility of calling the bonds makes this a bit more complicated, but the exact terms in the contingency can be negotiated with the lender.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: JWU42 on April 07, 2012, 09:33:04 PM
Meni,

Thanks - figured that a "manual short" was going to be how to handle - a bit cumbersome as you said with the call provision.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 11, 2012, 04:39:57 AM
It is VERY easy to let such a contract/bond run like a Ponzi scheme (selling bonds for a high price, pay the payouts from the IPO initially and after half a year or so "disappear", have "hardware errors", "a medical condition" or more or less anything else that could make people panic-sell. After 15 days pay 105% of the lower-than-IPO price + keep the remaining BTC.

It takes far more than 1 year until something like the above becomes unprofitable for you as the issuer...
I'm quoting something you wrote in another thread, because I still have a hard time grasping your suggested failure mode.

If I'm going to lie, cheat and steal, I can do this even if I proved that I control the hashrate.

If I "disappear" then I've already failed the contract. If I have hardware errors I will still pay on schedule. If I have a medical condition my family will pick up the handling of the bond. If I do anything that indicates I'm going to call the bond, if anything it will create a panic buy since this increases its value.

If I somehow do manage to create a panic sell, I'll need the panic to continue during the month it takes to affect the call price. During which there are 13 coupons payments. If I pay them then I don't see why people would continue panicking, if not then I may as well not pay the calling price at all.

Anything I would do along the lines you suggest would be a massive hit on my reputation. And again, I can do this even if I provably have the hardware.

tl; dr: If you trust that I will fulfill the contract, you should believe me when I say I have hardware, or at least trust that I will not pull any blatant dirty tricks.

All that said, I think that with the first batch of hardware I'll average about 1 block per week. This means that it will take months to demonstrate a given hashrate with any accuracy, during which my mining is suboptimal. Also, since I don't personally have physical access to the hardware, it may be harder to supply the desired proof. I can see what I can do, if I can be made to understand what good that will do, or at least see there is sufficient demand for this that understanding is not required.

PS The first batch of hardware hasn't arrived yet, but it should happen really soon.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: brendio on April 11, 2012, 04:50:18 AM
I really don't see why an issuer needs to prove they have the hardware, or even why they need to have the hardware, so they as they pay coupons according to the formula stated in the contract.

A cashed up bitcoiner who thinks mining is in a bubble and hence unprofitable could issue such a bond and pay out of his saving or with bitcoins purchased for fiat. It would be a way to be short mining, long bitcoin.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Sukrim on April 11, 2012, 08:18:24 AM
Since it takes 1 year+ to make profits on such bonds as you (and others) sell them, there is still a lot of room for frauds, I guess we can agree on that at least.

Also, your bond already pays out quite often and has a longer averaging time for buybacks than other bonds which (as you correctly said) makes it harder for you to IPO and run.
Still it can be run like a ponzi scheme, if you add "new machines" every 2-3 months you can run this bond for quite some time and even let early adopters go into the profit zone until everything breaks down. If you still live at the same place 2 years later and are still known under the same name?! Who knows? ;)

I'm a very sceptical person and most likely there is everything fine and in order with all of the "mining bonds" that are currently popping up - but I'll just like to remind that for example other mining operations like SIN also started out with a "invest ~1 BTC now and in 1  year you'll break even and we'll all be RICH BABY!" and it went downhill after some difficulty increases. Especially with Vladimir's planned ASIC farm, mining botnets/mystery miners, the reward split and potential other ASICs/more FPGAs on the horizon betting now that the hashrate will stagnate is a ballsy move for any investor...


The "bets" mentioned above could be done for example like this btw.:
"I am certain that mining for the next 15 000 blocks with 10 MH/s will yield less than 5 Bitcents - there is a certain chance however (if the network grows slower/shrinks) that this does yield more than 5 Bitcents. I create MININGBET.10MHIN15KBLKS and pay out pure PPS of the next 15k blocks after the current block (#123456). These shares get sold for 5 bitcents each. If I have to pay out less than 5 bitcents per share during the runtime, I win - if not, they win." (numbers are completely guessed and probably off by magnitudes!)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 11, 2012, 08:58:39 AM
Since it takes 1 year+ to make profits on such bonds as you (and others) sell them, there is still a lot of room for frauds, I guess we can agree on that at least.

Also, your bond already pays out quite often and has a longer averaging time for buybacks than other bonds which (as you correctly said) makes it harder for you to IPO and run.
Still it can be run like a ponzi scheme, if you add "new machines" every 2-3 months you can run this bond for quite some time and even let early adopters go into the profit zone until everything breaks down. If you still live at the same place 2 years later and are still known under the same name?! Who knows? ;)
Sure. But for the current purpose I would like to know in what way can blockchain verification make less room for fraud.

Everything won't "break down" without malicious intent on my part, and if I had such intention I could exercise it even with a demonstration of hashing power. I can understand that it can show that I have less incentive to run, but this doesn't seem like a strong enough case to me.

I'm a very sceptical person and most likely there is everything fine and in order with all of the "mining bonds" that are currently popping up - but I'll just like to remind that for example other mining operations like SIN also started out with a "invest ~1 BTC now and in 1  year you'll break even and we'll all be RICH BABY!" and it went downhill after some difficulty increases. Especially with Vladimir's planned ASIC farm, mining botnets/mystery miners, the reward split and potential other ASICs/more FPGAs on the horizon betting now that the hashrate will stagnate is a ballsy move for any investor...
A difficulty increase would be beneficial to a hypothetical naked issuer and make it easier for him to fulfill his obligations.

It would of course be detrimental to investors. It's no secret that there is a very real risk that such a bond will not pay out as well as hoped. I want potential investors to have the power to decide for themselves how good is the bond for them. I also have put a lot of thought and effort into issuing this and there are many risks involved, and would like to profit from it. If there's demand, I'll offer at a higher price than what I would have been willing to pay myself.

The "bets" mentioned above could be done for example like this btw.:
"I am certain that mining for the next 15 000 blocks with 10 MH/s will yield less than 5 Bitcents - there is a certain chance however (if the network grows slower/shrinks) that this does yield more than 5 Bitcents. I create MININGBET.10MHIN15KBLKS and pay out pure PPS of the next 15k blocks after the current block (#123456). These shares get sold for 5 bitcents each. If I have to pay out less than 5 bitcents per share during the runtime, I win - if not, they win." (numbers are completely guessed and probably off by magnitudes!)
We're going to have a Bitcoin prediction market, either in GLBSE or elsewhere, with all kinds of bets on difficulty, block timestamps and so on (a prediction market on the time of block 210000 would be cool). I planned to experiment with making a prediction asset on top of the current GLBSE platform, but was talked out of it.

But none of these has the same purity and alignment with real-world conditions as a perpetual asset tied to a given hashrate, which I believe will be the main form in which mining-related speculation and hedging will be done.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Sukrim on April 11, 2012, 11:12:56 AM
Looking forward to the prediction market, I went ahead and created a bet on betsofbitco.in for a block difficulty (http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=333 as soon as it is approved) in may - but a more automated way of doing these kinds of bets is really needed and would be an easy way to get money in.

About proving hash rate as insurance against fraud - my reasoning was that it raises the entry hurdle for fraudsters significantly by making them take risks too (besides being called out/tagged "scammer" etc.) as they will have to buy/rent that hardware they claim to have, get them to an operational state and contribute to the bitcoin network. Yes, they can still be frauds - but at least they will have helped the network, left traces in the blockchain that can be linked to them... If you have to show proof that oyu own the claimed hash rate, this might be too high a hurdle to make the scamming worthwile compared to other possibilities, as you have to invest more than just some time to get mining hardware.

About "only 1 block per week": that's why I suggested Eligius + P2Pool, as these pools pay out via coinbase transactions, so you could even prove that you own a single GH/s quite well, as these pools solve blocks much faster.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 11, 2012, 12:08:44 PM
I will have a period of unavailability between Apr 12 around 14:00 UTC to Apr 14 around 18:00 UTC. Because of this, it is likely that the coupon payment for block 175391 will be delayed.


Looking forward to the prediction market, I went ahead and created a bet on betsofbitco.in for a block difficulty (http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=333 as soon as it is approved) in may - but a more automated way of doing these kinds of bets is really needed and would be an easy way to get money in.
Automation is not the problem with betsofbitcoin, it's that it's not a market, it just distributes funds in an arbitrary way. Even someone who knows exactly the probability of an event when the market doesn't can't reliably make a bet with a positive expectation.

About "only 1 block per week": that's why I suggested Eligius + P2Pool, as these pools pay out via coinbase transactions, so you could even prove that you own a single GH/s quite well, as these pools solve blocks much faster.
I'm not going anywhere near Eligius, I'll think about P2Pool.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 15, 2012, 03:42:23 PM
I will issue 2000 new bonds later this week.

I've also updated the asset details, and poked Nefario wrt identification.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 16, 2012, 06:38:40 PM
I have issued 2000 new bonds (a total of 4000) at 0.4 BTC each.

Nefario has also finished verifying my account.

About "only 1 block per week": that's why I suggested Eligius + P2Pool, as these pools pay out via coinbase transactions, so you could even prove that you own a single GH/s quite well, as these pools solve blocks much faster.
I'm not going anywhere near Eligius, I'll think about P2Pool.
I have been reminded that BFL singles don't work with P2Pool because of the frequent LP, so that's off the table.

I'll proceed with my original plan - which is to use whatever combination I see fit of physically operating hardware, colocation, mining contracts, mining company investments or hedging on available markets, which I deem will provide me with the best combination of profit and risk. I will divulge information on my course of action for the sake of transparency, but this is irrelevant to my unconditional obligation to fulfill the deterministic terms, and I will not go out of my way to prove that I have the stated backing.

As a reminder, in the short term there are 13 BFL single units on the way to be colocated with Inaba (which may be absorbed into his BFLS offering), who will operate them utilizing GPUmax and the last fortress of hoppability, Deepbit. I'm also waiting for news from Largecoin, I have the deposit money ready.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Inaba on April 16, 2012, 07:55:43 PM
I can confirm that Meni has an order of 13 singles that will be delivered to me/my facilities to begin slave labor in the BTC mines that are within my domain/fiefdom.  Any stray singles or lumbering MiniRigs wandering onto my territory will be similarly conscripted into slave labor until death or sale, whichever comes first.





Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: rjk on April 16, 2012, 08:13:49 PM
I can confirm that Meni has an order of 13 singles that will be delivered to me/my facilities to begin slave labor in the BTC mines that are within my domain/fiefdom.  Any stray singles or lumbering MiniRigs wandering onto my territory will be similarly conscripted into slave labor until death or sale, whichever comes first.
http://wiki.urbandead.com/images/f/f0/Reaper.jpg
Muahahahaha


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: JWU42 on April 16, 2012, 08:52:49 PM
http://images.wikia.com/montypython/images/2/24/Rabbitattack.jpg

Death awaits you all with big pointy nasty teeth...

Sorry Meni -- back OT now  ;D


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 17, 2012, 10:00:25 AM
I have been contacted (by one who also happens to be a Bitcoil customer) to make a presale of 5500 bonds, and I agreed. Because of this, and to stay with round numbers, I will issue 6000 new bonds (total of 10000 so far), of which 500 will be publicly offered at 0.4 BTC.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Sukrim on April 17, 2012, 10:37:34 AM
That presale was done @0.4 too?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 17, 2012, 10:38:27 AM
That presale was done @0.4 too?
Essentially yes, though there was a token discount.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: JWU42 on April 17, 2012, 11:30:20 AM
Congratulations Meni on your continued success with Puremining!


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 17, 2012, 11:42:13 AM
Congratulations Meni on your continued success with Puremining!
Thank you, I'm glad to offer a valuable service.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 19, 2012, 05:54:05 PM
Ok, that was weird.

The customer who recently purchased bonds directly from me has had second thoughts. He requested to sell (most of) them back to me, at a lower price of course. I agreed to this as well.

Since I now possess more unsold bonds than I intended, and I made some net profit out of these two trades, I am offering >5000 bonds for sale at the lower price of 0.37 BTC each.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 25, 2012, 07:55:50 AM
All 10,000 bonds have been sold. That will be all for the near future. Thank you to all investors.

In other news, some (but not yet all) of the BFL single units have arrived. To anyone who wants this to feel a bit more "real", here is a photo (not all of the units are mine):

http://bitcoinpuremining.com/Puremining1.jpg


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on May 01, 2012, 01:48:02 PM
Coupon payment summary for April 2012 (total 0.0183439763 BTC per bond):

Code:
Block number Timestamp        Timestamp (Unix) Elapsed time Difficulty Block reward Coupon    Status
177743    Apr 29 2012 11:50:02  1335700202          188328    1508589.67206 50        0.0014532954 Paid
177407    Apr 27 2012 07:31:14  1335511874          208629    1577913.48568 50        0.0015392233 Paid
177071    Apr 24 2012 21:34:05  1335303245          210537    1577913.48568 50        0.0015533002 Paid
176735    Apr 22 2012 11:05:08  1335092708          196334    1577913.48568 50        0.0014485132 Paid
176399    Apr 20 2012 04:32:54  1334896374          202079    1577913.48568 50        0.0014908987 Paid
176063    Apr 17 2012 20:24:55  1334694295          214922    1577913.48568 50        0.0015856518 Paid
175727    Apr 15 2012 08:42:53  1334479373          232779    1577913.48568 50        0.0017173972 Paid
175391    Apr 12 2012 16:03:14  1334246594          203256    1626553.48133 50        0.0014547393 Paid
175055    Apr 10 2012 07:35:38  1334043338          196855    1626553.48133 50        0.0014089262 Paid
174719    Apr 08 2012 00:54:43  1333846483          226725    1626553.48133 50        0.0016227111 Paid
174383    Apr 05 2012 09:55:58  1333619758          223984    1626553.48133 50        0.0016030933 Paid
174047    Apr 02 2012 19:42:54  1333395774          204861    1626553.48133 50        0.0014662266 Paid


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on May 11, 2012, 12:27:33 PM
I will have very limited availability between May 20, 2012 and June 17, 2012. I have arranged for coupons to continue to be paid on schedule (there could be some delays on weekends, especially the one on May 27); but I may not be able to offer support or handle any unexpected situations. Those will be sorted out when I get back.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on May 11, 2012, 12:42:25 PM
Enjoy your holidays - or work. Whichever :)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on May 11, 2012, 12:47:07 PM
Enjoy your holidays - or work. Whichever :)
Oh, it's much worse than either. But probably not as bad as what may be your next guess.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Philj on May 11, 2012, 01:03:58 PM
Enjoy your holidays - or work. Whichever :)
Oh, it's much worse than either. But probably not as bad as what may be your next guess.

Honeymoon?  ;D


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: BIGMERVE on May 13, 2012, 04:49:53 PM
Enjoy your holidays - or work. Whichever :)
Oh, it's much worse than either. But probably not as bad as what may be your next guess.

Honeymoon?  ;D

Nickleback Concert?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on May 13, 2012, 05:24:35 PM
Enjoy your holidays - or work. Whichever :)
Oh, it's much worse than either. But probably not as bad as what may be your next guess.

Honeymoon?  ;D

Nickleback Concert?
Military reserve duty, also known here as "miluim".


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: BIGMERVE on May 13, 2012, 05:31:12 PM


Oh, it's much worse than either. But probably not as bad as what may be your next guess.

Honeymoon?  ;D

Nickleback Concert?
Military reserve duty, also known here as "miluim".

Damn... Good luck and stay safe.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: zefir on May 13, 2012, 06:08:22 PM
Damn... Good luck and stay safe.
OT: damn, I'm dead certain that I heard that exact quote in your sig somewhere, but can't remember  :-\


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: BIGMERVE on May 13, 2012, 06:12:00 PM
Damn... Good luck and stay safe.
OT: damn, I'm dead certain that I heard that exact quote in your sig somewhere, but can't remember  :-\

It's probably because I slipped you a roofie before I said it to you.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on May 29, 2012, 02:10:31 PM
Military reserve duty, also known here as "miluim".
Ok, it's going to be easier than I thought. I'll be at home for the next ~10 days, and even in camp I'll have some free time and internet access.

Anyway, I've been away for a week and they change everything. It'll take a while to catch up with everything that's been going on...


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on June 06, 2012, 11:23:10 AM
Coupon payment summary for May 2012 (total 0.0186125703 BTC per bond):
Code:
Block number Timestamp        Timestamp (Unix) Elapsed time Difficulty Block reward Coupon    Bonds Total      Status
182111    May 29 2012 15:19:52  1338304792          209105    1591074.96185 50        0.0015299735 10000 15.2997350 Paid
181775    May 27 2012 05:14:47  1338095687          212718    1591074.96185 50        0.0015564090 10000 15.5640900 Paid
181439    May 24 2012 18:09:29  1337882969          236113    1733207.51385 50        0.0015859134 10000 15.8591340 Paid
181103    May 22 2012 00:34:16  1337646856          213765    1733207.51385 50        0.0014358074 10000 14.3580740 Paid
180767    May 19 2012 13:11:31  1337433091          214080    1733207.51385 50        0.0014379232 10000 14.3792320 Paid
180431    May 17 2012 01:43:31  1337219011          226703    1733207.51385 50        0.0015227088 10000 15.2270880 Paid
180095    May 14 2012 10:45:08  1336992308          215860    1733207.51385 50        0.0014498790 10000 14.4987900 Paid
179759    May 11 2012 22:47:28  1336776448          211237    1733207.51385 50        0.0014188274 10000 14.1882740 Paid
179423    May 09 2012 12:06:51  1336565211          162909    1508589.67206 50        0.0012571413 10000 12.5714130 Paid
179087    May 07 2012 14:51:42  1336402302          169607    1508589.67206 50        0.0013088286 10000 13.0882860 Paid
178751    May 05 2012 15:44:55  1336232695          183646    1508589.67206 50        0.0014171652 10000 14.1716520 Paid
178415    May 03 2012 12:44:09  1336049049          180252    1508589.67206 50        0.0013909743 10000 13.9097430 Paid
178079    May 01 2012 10:39:57  1335868797          168595    1508589.67206 50        0.0013010192 10000 13.0101920 Paid


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on June 06, 2012, 11:26:31 AM
I will issue 5000 new bonds tomorrow, at a price which is to be determined.

In other news, more or less all of the units from the first BFL shipment have arrived; I will post more pictures once Inaba finishes tidying them up.

Update: Bonds have been issued, and offered for 0.37 BTC.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Bitcoin Oz on June 17, 2012, 03:04:47 AM
How will puremining deal with the ASIC situation Meni?

I see NastyMining is going to change the value of their bonds to 20mh/s or something.

What are your thoughts on a MOORE type offering ?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on June 17, 2012, 04:50:26 AM
How will puremining deal with the ASIC situation Meni?

I see NastyMining is going to change the value of their bonds to 20mh/s or something.
PureMining is a deterministic bond, and it will continue to be 1 MH/s per bond. I don't increase it when something good happens any more than I decrease it when something bad happens, the contract is binding both ways.

Some issuers have offered to pass on gains from the BFL trade-in program. This makes sense given this disruptive event, I wish them the best of luck and investors who are confident in BFL's ability to deliver would do well to consider these offers. But that's not the market segment I'm in, I just want PureMining to continue faithfully filling its role of a deterministic bond long after the uncertainty of the current time is behind us.

BFL's announced specs are very impressive, but on the other hand they don't have a great track record of delivering what they promised on time. I will certainly take their announcement into consideration when deciding on the pricing of any future issued bonds, and investors should take it into account when deciding how much they are willing to pay.

What are your thoughts on a MOORE type offering ?
I think it's very interesting but ultimately I don't see the point. The issuer of a bond with a hardcoded appreciation in hashrate is speculating on what the future cost of hashrate will be, and he will have to compensate for this risk in his pricing. In a fixed-hashrate bond the issuer can much better estimate his cost of covering the bond, and can thus offer it at a more affordable price. Also, since the chosen appreciation rate is arbitrary, it stands in the way of standardization and commoditization.

I prefer the scenario where the issuer just offers more bonds if he wishes to expand utilizing new hardware opportunities, and investors can buy them if they wish to maintain or increase the value of their investment.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: friedcat on June 17, 2012, 05:11:39 AM
I agree with most of your ideas. But as the issuer of MOORE, I have to make some comments.

Also, since the chosen appreciation rate is arbitrary, it stands in the way of standardization and commoditization.

Exactly. As I admitted in my main thread from the start, our bond is not fungible with deterministic bonds, so I have to do price discovery myself without the help of other people's prices. And I also admit that my pricing includes the compensation to many of my potential risks.

However, the strategy of MOORE is to make its price less prone to technology advances. For technology changes, there are gradual ones and disruptive ones. The policy of my current hard-code appreciation of hashrates aims to neutralize the first, and I will also cover the second with my new adjustments to the contract of my bonds.

I prefer the scenario where the issuer just offers more bonds if he wishes to expand utilizing new hardware opportunities, and investors can buy them if they wish to maintain or increase the value of their investment.

The essence of MOORE is I do the re-investment for them. Even if in the end the investors just get the same as the scenario they do re-investments themselves, the psychological effect of "our bond is not losing value as much as others are" is an advantage both for me and for the investors.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on June 17, 2012, 06:04:27 AM
I agree with most of your ideas. But as the issuer of MOORE, I have to make some comments.

Also, since the chosen appreciation rate is arbitrary, it stands in the way of standardization and commoditization.

Exactly. As I admitted in my main thread from the start, our bond is not fungible with deterministic bonds, so I have to do price discovery myself without the help of other people's prices. And I also admit that my pricing includes the compensation to many of my potential risks.

However, the strategy of MOORE is to make its price less prone to technology advances. For technology changes, there are gradual ones and disruptive ones. The policy of my current hard-code appreciation of hashrates aims to neutralize the first, and I will also cover the second with my new adjustments to the contract of my bonds.

I prefer the scenario where the issuer just offers more bonds if he wishes to expand utilizing new hardware opportunities, and investors can buy them if they wish to maintain or increase the value of their investment.

The essence of MOORE is I do the re-investment for them. Even if in the end the investors just get the same as the scenario they do re-investments themselves, the psychological effect of "our bond is not losing value as much as others are" is an advantage both for me and for the investors.
I agree but personally I don't feel the upside is worth the cost of less direct entanglement with the underlying hardware purchase. But I certainly don't deny that MOORE has a place catering to people for whom it is. In particular, it expands the space spanned by the available investment opportunities, giving sophisticated investors more flexibility in matching their portfolio to their future projections.

Regarding the psychological effect, it's mostly a product of what metric one is looking it. Currently GLBSE shows a graph of an asset price over time, and seeing a graph which is always in decline indeed looks bad. IMO the relevant metric is current price + coupons paid per unit so far. This gives a more accurate, intuitive picture of the viability of an asset, should look the same for functionally equivalent assets, and will show an upward trend for any successful investment.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on June 20, 2012, 03:47:38 PM
I will issue 5000 more bonds early next week.

The price will be somewhat lower than the last issue, to account for hardware advances and the increase in the BTC exchange rate, both of which mean that more hashrate can be bought per bitcoin.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on June 20, 2012, 05:37:57 PM
I've been asked about bulk/presale discounts. I'm not a fan of these things but I guess it couldn't hurt if done modestly and openly. So here are the terms:

1. Out of the 5000 bonds currently issued, up to 3000 are elligible for preordering.
2. Preorder must be at least 500 bonds.
3. Discount will be 2%. The actual price will be determined and disclosed when the bonds are offered publicly.
4. Preordered bonds will start to be delivered after bonds are publicly put on sale.
5. The preorder agreement isn't binding for either party. The buyer can cancel the order if he's unhappy with the price or for any other reason. I can also back out of the deal, but will only do that with a good reason.
6. If more bonds are preordered than available, buyers will be put on a waiting list. Bonds will be offered to buyers who are still interested in the order they requested the preorder.
7. Preordering is done under the understanding that the bonds will not be immediately resold.
8. Preorder request can be done by either posting in this thread or sending a PM.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: stochastic on June 20, 2012, 07:16:45 PM
I've been asked about bulk/presale discounts. I'm not a fan of these things but I guess it couldn't hurt if done modestly and openly. So here are the terms:

1. Out of the 5000 bonds currently issued, up to 3000 are elligible for preordering.
2. Preorder must be at least 500 bonds.
3. Discount will be 2%. The actual price will be determined and disclosed when the bonds are offered publicly.
4. Preordered bonds will start to be delivered after bonds are publicly put on sale.
5. The preorder agreement isn't binding for either party. The buyer can cancel the order if he's unhappy with the price or for any other reason. I can also back out of the deal, but will only do that with a good reason.
6. If more bonds are preordered than available, buyers will be put on a waiting list. Bonds will be offered to buyers who are still interested in the order they requested the preorder.
7. Preorder request can be done by either posting in this thread or sending a PM.

I think there should be a required amount of time to hold the bonds if someone pre-orders them.  Otherwise they might just resell the at your IPO and you would then be in competition with the preordered bonds and the new ones you are releasing.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: GeoRW on June 20, 2012, 07:37:51 PM
I will issue 5000 more bonds early next week.

The price will be somewhat lower than the last issue, to account for hardware advances and the increase in the BTC exchange rate, both of which mean that more hashrate can be bought per bitcoin.

I wonder if you already paid your current bond holders enough on dividends, so they don't go into loss when you will be pushing market price down while issuing more of these bonds at lower price. I don't hold any of these bonds, just curious.  ;D


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on June 21, 2012, 03:48:03 AM
I think there should be a required amount of time to hold the bonds if someone pre-orders them.  Otherwise they might just resell the at your IPO and you would then be in competition with the preordered bonds and the new ones you are releasing.
There is no way to enforce this. I've added a clause saying this is not an intended use case.

I will issue 5000 more bonds early next week.

The price will be somewhat lower than the last issue, to account for hardware advances and the increase in the BTC exchange rate, both of which mean that more hashrate can be bought per bitcoin.

I wonder if you already paid your current bond holders enough on dividends, so they don't go into loss when you will be pushing market price down while issuing more of these bonds at lower price. I don't hold any of these bonds, just curious.  ;D
I make an effort to preserve investor value, but there is absolutely no guarantee that the bond will produce a net profit over its lifetime. The market conditions change and the bond price will adapt, whether I'm issuing new bonds or not.

I'm handling this in the fairest way I know and it's impossible to please everyone. If I price it too high I may end up stuck with bonds nobody wants to buy (and lowering the price then would be even more problematic). If I announce a new price without any waiting period there will be resentment among people who have recently bought for higher. By being vague I'm giving people an opportunity to reassess their evaluation and act accordingly - but those people can end up unpleasantly surprised if the issue price turns out to be higher than they expected.

Two important events have happened since the last issue: BTC appreciation to the $6.5 level, and BFL's announcement of their planned ASIC pricing - which should be taken with a good serving of salt, but is still edible.

Anyway, to more directly answer your question - the total coupons paid per bond so far is 0.076534754 BTC (not including errors and compensation). So whether this is a profit or loss really depends on how long one has held the bond and how much he paid for it. The highest price the bonds were offered by me (correcting for compensation) is 0.4 BTC.

It also depends if you're looking at the profit of holding bonds compared to holding BTC or holding USD. Compared to USD I think it will be a profit for everyone who bought from me. BTC price affects the difficulty which affects the BTC price of a mining bond, so the position of holding a mining bond is positive but still lower than directly holding BTC, so people should expect not to profit as much from a BTC rally as if they were holding BTC.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on June 22, 2012, 08:26:35 AM
I have decided to take a more active role in ensuring the stability of the PureMining traded price, by placing a bid of 1000 bonds at 0.3 BTC.

I do not commit to keeping it active forever, but I will make an effort not to change this bid without a week of prior notice.

If the bid gets executed I may replenish it at my discretion.

Hopefully this should prevent low-volume selling from drastically affecting the price, which could prevent the fear of a panic sell from fulfilling itself. Ideally, the bid needn't be executed at all - it would inspire enough confidence in the bond value that people will place their own higher bids.

Going forward I will consider using the bot I'm developing for POLY to act as a more active market maker for PureMining, offering tighter spreads for buyers and sellers. One problem is that GLBSE's fee structure makes it technically more difficult to be a market maker.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: server on June 23, 2012, 04:51:08 PM
I have decided to take a more active role in ensuring the stability of the PureMining traded price, by placing a bid of 1000 bonds at 0.3 BTC.

Thank you


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on June 24, 2012, 09:37:18 AM
I have issued 5000 new bonds. They are offered at 0.28 BTC each.


Most of us have heard about Butterfly Labs' announcement of an ASIC unit coming in October, producing 1 TH/s at a cost of $30K.

When I started PureMining what I had in mind was a world where mining equipment performance grows at a steady and more or less predictable rate as new technologies are developed and enter the market. The eventual advent of dedicated ASIC products was of course no secret, but I always assumed a gradual pricing strategy. People would know how much hashrate they can get for their bitcoin, and would rather substitute physical hardware purchase with a deterministic bond investment that would remove the hassle and shift some of the risks to those in the best position to evaluate them.

I did not envision a company offering a product that overnight vigintuples the available price/performance, much less a trade-in program that renders the hashrate of one company infungible with the hashrate of another company. In this scenario a deterministic bond is much less directly entangled with the underlying hardware, and much more reminiscent of a speculative instrument.

Once the dust settles PureMining will once again shine in the role it was intended for. For now there is uncertainty about BFL's ability to deliver on their promise, and given this there is no logically obvious way to price the bonds. I do however wish to increase the total count to 20000, a nice round number which matches my current capacity. I am offering new bonds at 0.28 BTC, a price which acknowledges the recent depression in the mining bond market on one hand, but avoids excessive devaluation of current investors' holdings on the other. If you believe BFL will deliver a product with the stated specifications, on time, and with sufficient production capacity, you should not buy the bond at this price. If you have no such belief you are welcome to consider this offer. I will not offer bonds at a lower price until the ASIC situation becomes clearer.

Personally I do intend to try to take advantage of BFL's trade-in program, and I may consider offering a complementary asset to those who do want to invest in its ASIC equipment.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: brendio on June 24, 2012, 12:12:55 PM
Personally I do intend to try to take advantage of BFL's trade-in program, and I may consider offering a complementary asset to those who do want to invest in its ASIC equipment.
That should confuse people who don't know the difference between complementary and complimentary!  ;)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on July 06, 2012, 02:42:01 PM
Coupon payment summary for June 2012 (total 0.01934658 BTC per bond):
Code:
Block number Timestamp        Timestamp (Unix) Elapsed time Difficulty Block reward Coupon    Bonds Total      Status
186815    Jun 29 2012 21:39:24  1341005964          203520    1726566.55919 50        0.0013722521 20000 27.4450420 Paid
186479    Jun 27 2012 13:07:24  1340802444          190252    1726566.55919 50        0.0012827914 20000 25.6558280 Paid
186143    Jun 25 2012 08:16:32  1340612192          192041    1726566.55919 50        0.0012948539 20000 25.8970780 Paid
185807    Jun 23 2012 02:55:51  1340420151          211481    1726566.55919 50        0.0014259299 15000 21.3889485 Paid
185471    Jun 20 2012 16:11:10  1340208670          182860    1583177.84744 50        0.0013446187 15000 20.1692805 Paid
185135    Jun 18 2012 13:23:30  1340025810          177791    1583177.84744 50        0.0013073450 15000 19.6101750 Paid
184799    Jun 16 2012 12:00:19  1339848019          184346    1583177.84744 50        0.0013555457 15000 20.3331855 Paid
184463    Jun 14 2012 08:47:53  1339663673          191909    1583177.84744 50        0.0014111585 15000 21.1673775 Paid
184127    Jun 12 2012 03:29:24  1339471764          189299    1583177.84744 50        0.0013919664 15000 20.8794960 Paid
183791    Jun 09 2012 22:54:25  1339282465          183801    1583177.84744 50        0.0013515381 15000 20.2730715 Paid
183455    Jun 07 2012 19:51:04  1339098664          197893    1591074.96185 50        0.0014479379 15000 21.7190685 Paid
183119    Jun 05 2012 12:52:51  1338900771          197285    1591074.96185 50        0.0014434893 10000 14.4348930 Paid
182783    Jun 03 2012 06:04:46  1338703486          183962    1591074.96185 50        0.0013460079 10000 13.4600790 Paid
182447    Jun 01 2012 02:58:44  1338519524          214732    1591074.96185 50        0.0015711450 10000 15.7114500 Paid


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on July 08, 2012, 05:03:45 AM
Coupon payment summary for June 2012 (total 0.01934658 BTC per bond):
Do you mine solo, or do you use a pool ?
Inaba is in charge of these decisions. I don't believe he's mining solo. Of course this has no effect on the coupons paid.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on August 02, 2012, 06:05:38 PM
Coupon payment summary for July 2012 (total 0.017129391 BTC per bond):
Code:
Block number Timestamp        Timestamp (Unix) Elapsed time Difficulty Block reward Coupon    Bonds Total      Status
191519    Jul 30 2012 10:53:56  1343645636          172741    1866391.30500 50        0.0010774643 20000 21.5492860 Paid
191183    Jul 28 2012 10:54:55  1343472895          171117    1866391.30500 50        0.0010673346 20000 21.3466920 Paid
190847    Jul 26 2012 11:22:58  1343301778          177745    1866391.30500 50        0.0011086765 20000 22.1735300 Paid
190511    Jul 24 2012 10:00:33  1343124033          192874    1866391.30500 50        0.0012030429 20000 24.0608580 Paid
190175    Jul 22 2012 04:25:59  1342931159          202379    1866391.30500 50        0.0012623299 20000 25.2465980 Paid
189839    Jul 19 2012 20:13:00  1342728780          191829    1866391.30500 50        0.0011965248 20000 23.9304960 Paid
189503    Jul 17 2012 14:55:51  1342536951          191514    1751454.53534 50        0.0012729513 20000 25.4590260 Paid
189167    Jul 15 2012 09:43:57  1342345437          179959    1751454.53534 50        0.0011961478 20000 23.9229560 Paid
188831    Jul 13 2012 07:44:38  1342165478          203218    1751454.53534 50        0.0013507452 20000 27.0149040 Paid
188495    Jul 10 2012 23:17:40  1341962260          183059    1751454.53534 50        0.0012167528 20000 24.3350560 Paid
188159    Jul 08 2012 20:26:41  1341779201          181850    1751454.53534 50        0.0012087169 20000 24.1743380 Paid
187823    Jul 06 2012 17:55:51  1341597351          195975    1751454.53534 50        0.0013026026 20000 26.0520520 Paid
187487    Jul 04 2012 11:29:36  1341401376          186253    1726566.55919 50        0.0012558278 20000 25.1165560 Paid
187151    Jul 02 2012 07:45:23  1341215123          209159    1726566.55919 50        0.0014102736 20000 28.2054720 Paid

I have recalled 4000 bonds I have left which are unlikely to be sold before the ASIC dust settles.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: totaleclipseofthebank on August 21, 2012, 11:55:31 PM
Does Puremining use GPUMAX?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on August 22, 2012, 03:59:48 AM
Does Puremining use GPUMAX?
I don't think so. I'm giving Inaba the freedom to choose where to direct the hashrate, and I wouldn't really mind if he did, but my understanding is that he doesn't currently use GPUMAX.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: aadje93 on August 22, 2012, 01:59:13 PM
so after the asic's etc arrive this bond is still 1mhash/s?

then it will crash hard in terms of price because other bonds give you 5-20mhash/s after asic trade in programs...

but ill keep my 193 shares (mining till i get 200, then saving up the btc :P)

its a nice bond that pays every 2-3 days instead of weekly, so less price variance because payment is coming in


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on August 22, 2012, 02:41:16 PM
so after the asic's etc arrive this bond is still 1mhash/s?

then it will crash hard in terms of price because other bonds give you 5-20mhash/s after asic trade in programs...
Yes, the bond is deterministic and will remain 1 MH/s, and its value will be significantly lower when ASIC devices with BFL's reported cost-effectiveness become available.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: totaleclipseofthebank on August 24, 2012, 01:35:29 AM
Trading at 0.058 now... just snagged some at 0.08.

Thats about a 4.75%/w yield (1000% APR)...


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Bitcoin Oz on August 24, 2012, 01:39:53 AM
so after the asic's etc arrive this bond is still 1mhash/s?

then it will crash hard in terms of price because other bonds give you 5-20mhash/s after asic trade in programs...
Yes, the bond is deterministic and will remain 1 MH/s, and its value will be significantly lower when ASIC devices with BFL's reported cost-effectiveness become available.

Are you going to offer an ASIC related bond ?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on August 24, 2012, 03:58:42 AM
so after the asic's etc arrive this bond is still 1mhash/s?

then it will crash hard in terms of price because other bonds give you 5-20mhash/s after asic trade in programs...
Yes, the bond is deterministic and will remain 1 MH/s, and its value will be significantly lower when ASIC devices with BFL's reported cost-effectiveness become available.

Are you going to offer an ASIC related bond ?
Possibly.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Factory on August 26, 2012, 01:51:21 AM
so after the asic's etc arrive this bond is still 1mhash/s?

then it will crash hard in terms of price because other bonds give you 5-20mhash/s after asic trade in programs...
Yes, the bond is deterministic and will remain 1 MH/s, and its value will be significantly lower when ASIC devices with BFL's reported cost-effectiveness become available.

Are you going to offer an ASIC related bond ?
Possibly.

Out of shareholder interest; would you consider a program which allowed PUREMINING bonds to be upgraded into the ASIC bonds at a discount relative to purchasing the new ASIC issuance on the open market? Any form of a program such as that would definitely instill investor confidence for the long term.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on August 26, 2012, 03:16:46 PM
so after the asic's etc arrive this bond is still 1mhash/s?

then it will crash hard in terms of price because other bonds give you 5-20mhash/s after asic trade in programs...
Yes, the bond is deterministic and will remain 1 MH/s, and its value will be significantly lower when ASIC devices with BFL's reported cost-effectiveness become available.

Are you going to offer an ASIC related bond ?
Possibly.
Out of shareholder interest; would you consider a program which allowed PUREMINING bonds to be upgraded into the ASIC bonds at a discount relative to purchasing the new ASIC issuance on the open market? Any form of a program such as that would definitely instill investor confidence for the long term.
I'm sure it will have a long-term effect. Just not what I think of as a positive effect. I have spoken at some length here and elsewhere about my vision for PureMining, which is to serve as a stepping stone towards a commodity market for hashrate which is independent of any issuer's decisions or a particular hardware brand. This is the only way for mining investments to be efficient in the long run. To offer an upgrade plan will be a step back to a guessing game what will each issuer do.

People need to understand the distinction between the two different investment models. Running a company is safe for the issuer because if anything bad happens he doesn't have to compensate for it out of pocket. This is why he can offer at low prices and share the rewards of good events. But the investors are taking the risk of anything bad happening with the issuer, his equipment or whatever. In the deterministic model, the issuer specifies an exact contract and is bound to fulfill it unconditionally. The investors know exactly what they are getting, and the issuer is taking all the risk. This is why there will be a premium for this. It is not reasonable to expect an unconditional fulfillment and significant bonuses. In the case of mining bonds, investors have but one responsibility - to estimate the future of the price/difficulty ratio; and if they erred in their estimation, it is not reasonable to expect compensation for it. I do not want to create a precedent where investors learn to rely on crutches rather than taking responsibility for their investment decisions.

Even if I were to be convinced to offer such an upgrade, on the grounds that it only slightly taints the deterministic model, it would not be fair to do it now after I have already clarified that no such upgrade will be given and people sold bonds based on this statement.

I want people to do business with me in the future based on my reputation as a man of my word, faithfully honoring the commitments I make (and making an effort to clarify in advance what it is that I am offering). Not on my reputation of handing out freebies.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Factory on August 26, 2012, 03:21:07 PM
so after the asic's etc arrive this bond is still 1mhash/s?

then it will crash hard in terms of price because other bonds give you 5-20mhash/s after asic trade in programs...
Yes, the bond is deterministic and will remain 1 MH/s, and its value will be significantly lower when ASIC devices with BFL's reported cost-effectiveness become available.

Are you going to offer an ASIC related bond ?
Possibly.
Out of shareholder interest; would you consider a program which allowed PUREMINING bonds to be upgraded into the ASIC bonds at a discount relative to purchasing the new ASIC issuance on the open market? Any form of a program such as that would definitely instill investor confidence for the long term.
I'm sure it will have a long-term effect. Just not what I think of as a positive effect. I have spoken at some length here and elsewhere about my vision for PureMining, which is to serve as a stepping stone towards a commodity market for hashrate which is independent of any issuer's decisions or a particular hardware brand. This is the only way for mining investments to be efficient in the long run. To offer an upgrade plan will be a step back to a guessing game what will each issuer do.

People need to understand the distinction between the two different investment models. Running a company is safe for the issuer because if anything bad happens he doesn't have to compensate for it out of pocket. This is why he can offer at low prices and share the rewards of good events. But the investors are taking the risk of anything bad happening with the issuer, his equipment or whatever. In the deterministic model, the issuer specifies an exact contract and is bound to fulfill it unconditionally. The investors know exactly what they are getting, and the issuer is taking all the risk. This is why there will be a premium for this. It is not reasonable to expect an unconditional fulfillment and significant bonuses. In the case of mining bonds, investors have but one responsibility - to estimate the future of the price/difficulty ratio; and if they erred in their estimation, it is not reasonable to expect compensation for it. I do not want to create a precedent where investors learn to rely on crutches rather than taking responsibility for their investment decisions.

Even if I were to be convinced to offer such an upgrade, on the grounds that it only slightly taints the deterministic model, it would not be fair to do it now after I have already clarified that no such upgrade will be given and people sold bonds based on this statement.

I want people to do business with me in the future based on my reputation as a man of my word, faithfully honoring the commitments I make (and making an effort to clarify in advance what it is that I am offering). Not on my reputation of handing out freebies.

Of course. I did not want to make it sound like investors should have freebies.

Thanks for further rationalizing your thoughts, and I fully understand your position.



Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: viboracecata on August 27, 2012, 01:24:48 AM
I can not understand why man could sell the bonds at 0.0001, OMG


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on September 06, 2012, 07:20:58 PM
Coupon payment summary for August 2012 (total 0.014924034 BTC per bond):
Code:
Block number Timestamp        Timestamp (Unix) Elapsed time Difficulty Block reward Coupon    Bonds Total      Status
196559    Aug 31 2012 15:32:28  1346427148          193066    2440642.60692 50        0.0009208985 16000 14.7343760 Paid
196223    Aug 29 2012 09:54:42  1346234082          192302    2440642.60692 50        0.0009172543 16000 14.6760688 Paid
195887    Aug 27 2012 04:29:40  1346041780          183114    2440642.60692 50        0.0008734288 16000 13.9748608 Paid
195551    Aug 25 2012 01:37:46  1345858666          184893    2190865.97010 50        0.0009824598 16000 15.7193568 Paid
195215    Aug 22 2012 22:16:13  1345673773          173279    2190865.97010 50        0.0009207469 16000 14.7319504 Paid
194879    Aug 20 2012 22:08:14  1345500494          165382    2190865.97010 50        0.0008787849 16000 14.0605584 Paid
194543    Aug 19 2012 00:11:52  1345335112          198727    2190865.97010 50        0.0010559691 16000 16.8955056 Paid
194207    Aug 16 2012 16:59:45  1345136385          178313    2190865.97010 50        0.0009474959 16000 15.1599344 Paid
193871    Aug 14 2012 15:27:52  1344958072          186026    2190865.97010 50        0.0009884802 16000 15.8156832 Paid
193535    Aug 12 2012 11:47:26  1344772046          175491    2036671.08869 50        0.0010030997 16000 16.0495952 Paid
193199    Aug 10 2012 11:02:35  1344596555          174221    2036671.08869 50        0.0009958404 16000 15.9334464 Paid
192863    Aug 08 2012 10:38:54  1344422334          192530    2036671.08869 50        0.0011004939 16000 17.6079024 Paid
192527    Aug 06 2012 05:10:04  1344229804          196130    2036671.08869 50        0.0011210714 16000 17.9371424 Paid
192191    Aug 03 2012 22:41:14  1344033674          182018    2036671.08869 50        0.0010404078 16000 16.6465248 Paid
191855    Aug 01 2012 20:07:36  1343851656          206020    2036671.08869 50        0.0011776023 20000 23.5520460 Paid


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on September 13, 2012, 04:08:48 PM
Coupons due while I'm in London will wait to be paid until I return on Wednesday.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on October 03, 2012, 04:01:02 PM
Coupon payment summary for September 2012 (total 0.011225321 BTC per bond):
Code:
Block number Timestamp        Timestamp (Unix) Elapsed time Difficulty Block reward Coupon    Bonds Total      Status
201263    Sep 30 2012 17:17:37  1349025457          182212    2864140.50781 50        0.0007406155 16000 11.8498480 Paid
200927    Sep 28 2012 14:40:45  1348843245          187715    2864140.50781 50        0.0007629829 16000 12.2077264 Paid
200591    Sep 26 2012 10:32:10  1348655530          194988    2864140.50781 50        0.0007925446 16000 12.6807136 Paid
200255    Sep 24 2012 04:22:22  1348460542          187875    2864140.50781 50        0.0007636332 16000 12.2181312 Paid
199919    Sep 22 2012 00:11:07  1348272667          179862    2864140.50781 50        0.0007310637 16000 11.6970192 Paid
199583    Sep 19 2012 22:13:25  1348092805          189228    2694047.95296 50        0.0008176929 16000 13.0830864 Paid
199247    Sep 17 2012 17:39:37  1347903577          178699    2694047.95296 50        0.0007721949 16000 12.3551184 Paid
198911    Sep 15 2012 16:01:18  1347724878          190737    2694047.95296 50        0.0008242136 16000 13.1874176 Paid
198575    Sep 13 2012 11:02:21  1347534141          202877    2694047.95296 50        0.0008766730 16000 14.0267680 Paid
198239    Sep 11 2012 02:41:04  1347331264          191343    2694047.95296 50        0.0008268322 16000 13.2293152 Paid
197903    Sep 08 2012 21:32:01  1347139921          184897    2694047.95296 50        0.0007989778 16000 12.7836448 Paid
197567    Sep 06 2012 18:10:24  1346955024          158365    2440642.60692 50        0.0007553794 16000 12.0860704 Paid
197231    Sep 04 2012 22:10:59  1346796659          186709    2440642.60692 50        0.0008905765 16000 14.2492240 Paid
196895    Sep 02 2012 18:19:10  1346609950          182802    2440642.60692 50        0.0008719406 16000 13.9510496 Paid


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on October 06, 2012, 01:28:43 PM
ok since no one else has said anything yet since glbse is close what happens to all our shares that we owned?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on October 06, 2012, 06:42:45 PM
ok since no one else has said anything yet since glbse is close what happens to all our shares that we owned?
The first step will be to compile a list of asset holders (identified by payment address) and corresponding amount of PureMining bonds. I hope Nefario cooperates in generating such a list, but just in case:

If you have any PureMining bonds, please send an email to  glbse at menirosenfeld dot com  specifying the amount of bonds you had and a payment address (and preferably, some other details). If no information comes from Nefario and the claims are consistent, I'll consider going by the claims. Otherwise we'll figure something out (donation to charity is a possibility).

The second step will be to find an appropriate technical means to distribute coupons as normal until an eventual buyback. The buyback terms will of course have to be modified since there is no longer trading on GLBSE (probably making use of the extrapolated lifetime earnings).


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: dishwara on October 07, 2012, 03:10:31 PM
I don't have that much luxury to donate coins to charity. May be for others, its just some coins, for me its life.

Hope Nefario won't scam every one.

I had my history downloaded last week from GLBSE as csv, but deleted.
Trying to recover it.

@Meni Rosenfeld, may be you can donate me some, coz you like donating very much & donated to this forum.
1LHvvynRR5N1c1e6DbqHRoF8rYfMcChg7e


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on October 08, 2012, 04:43:08 PM
I don't have that much luxury to donate coins to charity. May be for others, its just some coins, for me its life.
Forced donation will be a last resort if there is no way to figure out who the bondholders are.

If you manage to recover your csv and determine exactly how many bonds you hold, it will be a good start.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on October 08, 2012, 07:45:57 PM
Also you should also consider keeping your operation going, I spent weeks trying to figure out what bonds I wanted to invest in a while back and would love to keep business with you.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on October 08, 2012, 08:07:26 PM
Also you should also consider keeping your operation going, I spent weeks trying to figure out what bonds I wanted to invest in a while back and would love to keep business with you.
Thanks. In a few months I'll see if it makes sense to issue more bonds.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Naelr on October 09, 2012, 12:46:05 AM
ok since no one else has said anything yet since glbse is close what happens to all our shares that we owned?
The first step will be to compile a list of asset holders (identified by payment address) and corresponding amount of PureMining bonds. I hope Nefario cooperates in generating such a list, but just in case:

If you have any PureMining bonds, please send an email to  glbse at menirosenfeld dot com  specifying the amount of bonds you had and a payment address (and preferably, some other details). If no information comes from Nefario and the claims are consistent, I'll consider going by the claims. Otherwise we'll figure something out (donation to charity is a possibility).

The second step will be to find an appropriate technical means to distribute coupons as normal until an eventual buyback. The buyback terms will of course have to be modified since there is no longer trading on GLBSE (probably making use of the extrapolated lifetime earnings).

Info has been sent sir.

Naelr


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: senor_coconut on October 10, 2012, 03:18:04 PM
ok since no one else has said anything yet since glbse is close what happens to all our shares that we owned?
The first step will be to compile a list of asset holders (identified by payment address) and corresponding amount of PureMining bonds. I hope Nefario cooperates in generating such a list, but just in case:

If you have any PureMining bonds, please send an email to  glbse at menirosenfeld dot com  specifying the amount of bonds you had and a payment address (and preferably, some other details). If no information comes from Nefario and the claims are consistent, I'll consider going by the claims. Otherwise we'll figure something out (donation to charity is a possibility).

The second step will be to find an appropriate technical means to distribute coupons as normal until an eventual buyback. The buyback terms will of course have to be modified since there is no longer trading on GLBSE (probably making use of the extrapolated lifetime earnings).

I've also sent my information as mentioned above.

I'll cross-post Nefario's thread here because the discussion is now focusing on aspects that concern asset issuers as well as holders.
Your views are most welcome:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=115669.msg1262096#msg1262096


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on October 11, 2012, 08:57:25 AM
It seems there is now a claim form on https://glbse.com/. Please file a claim there. Since we do not yet know what will happen with the information submitted, it may be a good idea to independently send me a claim as described above (by sending email to glbse at menirosenfeld dot com with information of GLBSE username, amount of bonds held and withdrawal address, as well as any other relevant details).


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on October 15, 2012, 09:41:14 PM
Bumping to remind people to file claims.

For reference, I've talked a bit with Nefario but haven't yet received any data, or my own coins.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: viboracecata on October 17, 2012, 05:37:57 AM
I have personally sent my claims to you, thx.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Naelr on October 25, 2012, 04:23:09 AM
I guess there still is no news from GLBSE for you either?

Naelr


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on October 25, 2012, 05:56:26 AM
I guess there still is no news from GLBSE for you either?

Naelr
Right.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on October 31, 2012, 01:53:14 PM
I think we need to start preparing for the very real possibility that I may not be getting the data from GLBSE. So:

1. If you haven't sent a claim to me yet, now is the time.

2. I propose that if nothing happens within ~2 weeks, I will start paying out accumulated and future coupons according to the information I currently have. Payments for unclaimed bonds will go towards a reserve fund, which will be used either to partially compensate missing bondholders when the data is obtained, or eventually donated to an agreed-upon charity.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on October 31, 2012, 02:28:26 PM
...... For reference, I've talked a bit with Nefario but haven't yet received any data, or my own coins.

I think we need to start preparing for the very real possibility that I may not be getting the data from GLBSE...

Did you at least get your own coins?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on October 31, 2012, 02:45:36 PM
...... For reference, I've talked a bit with Nefario but haven't yet received any data, or my own coins.

I think we need to start preparing for the very real possibility that I may not be getting the data from GLBSE...

Did you at least get your own coins?
No. I had a hunch I shouldn't be keeping too many bitcoins there, so I withdrew most but had about 100 remaining. With the double payment thing I doubt I'll be getting them - just another one in a long list of recent losses I've had.

I think we need to start preparing for the very real possibility that I may not be getting the data from GLBSE. So:
Is there any material information that leads you to that conclusion ?
Not really, other than the length of time this has dragged on and Nefario not responding to my last mail.

Since I'm not making a full buyback currently the damage of making some payments with incomplete data is limited, and as mentioned I'm giving more time until doing even that. But if people prefer that I wait even longer I'm fine with that.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: zefir on October 31, 2012, 07:29:19 PM
[...]
Since I'm not making a full buyback currently the damage of making some payments with incomplete data is limited, and as mentioned I'm giving more time until doing even that. But if people prefer that I wait even longer I'm fine with that.

I'd support waiting a little bit more (say end of this year, just in case Mayan were right ;)), since my latest CSV is outdated and I would need to guess the the number of bonds I hold. Starting payments now based on estimates will just double the work in case Nefario decides to provide the data some day.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Naelr on November 02, 2012, 01:43:35 AM
I think we need to start preparing for the very real possibility that I may not be getting the data from GLBSE. So:

1. If you haven't sent a claim to me yet, now is the time.

2. I propose that if nothing happens within ~2 weeks, I will start paying out accumulated and future coupons according to the information I currently have. Payments for unclaimed bonds will go towards a reserve fund, which will be used either to partially compensate missing bondholders when the data is obtained, or eventually donated to an agreed-upon charity.
[/quote

I know I sent you my claim but is it possible for you maybe to post a list of those that have so we know you have our information?

Naelr


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 02, 2012, 09:39:45 AM
I think we need to start preparing for the very real possibility that I may not be getting the data from GLBSE. So:

1. If you haven't sent a claim to me yet, now is the time.

2. I propose that if nothing happens within ~2 weeks, I will start paying out accumulated and future coupons according to the information I currently have. Payments for unclaimed bonds will go towards a reserve fund, which will be used either to partially compensate missing bondholders when the data is obtained, or eventually donated to an agreed-upon charity.
I know I sent you my claim but is it possible for you maybe to post a list of those that have so we know you have our information?

Naelr
There are a few issues with that, I'll work on a hash-based list either tomorrow or in ~1.5 weeks. In any case I will make a test payment before any real payments, and the sentiment currently seems to be towards not acting on my own records yet. And FWIW I got your claim.

Edit: Or today. Here is a list of SHA-256 hashes of "EMAIL ADDRESS AMOUNT" (without quotations). For example if your email is a@b.c, address is 1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa and amount is 50 bonds it will be the hash of "a@b.c 1A1zP1eP5QGefi2DMPTfTL5SLmv7DivfNa 50", which is 54ec5b1d82bff5df257a88f1cc38ac1ecea55d8a98fe3bbe191e9375285c5274.

In one case I used the forum username rather than email address. For people who have mentioned several numbers in their claim, I used one of the numbers.

There are also some dummy hashes to conceal the actual number of claims (disclosing it has privacy and security implications).

This list will not be updated frequently.

(Removed on Nov 27 2012 as a privacy measure)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Naelr on November 02, 2012, 11:16:19 PM
Meni,

I appreciate everything your trying to do... and I found my hash so thank you for spending the time going through that I am sure it was a bit of a pain in the butt.

Naelr


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 03, 2012, 04:05:56 PM
Meni,

I appreciate everything your trying to do... and I found my hash so thank you for spending the time going through that I am sure it was a bit of a pain in the butt.

Naelr
It wasn't too bad, once I got the data in a spreadsheet most of the hashing work was automated. (I did the concatenation in Excel, generated some random numbers in Mathematica, and wrote a small C# app to hash each entry.)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Naelr on November 07, 2012, 03:09:55 AM
Tomorrow = 1 week..... counting the days!!!!!  ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Naelr


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 15, 2012, 01:27:17 PM
I remind everyone to send their claims to my email: glbse at menirosenfeld dot com (if they have not already done so). I still doubt I will get the data from GLBSE, meaning a direct claim could be the only way to get payment.

Also note that as time goes by, it's likely the signal to noise ratio in the claims will worsen, so claims submitted from now on will be subject to more scrutiny, and soon I will stop accepting claims at all.

Since acting by GLBSE data will be by far superior, if available, to direct claims, I will wait some more before making real payments. I might make a test payment soon.

Also, either way it looks like not all outstanding bonds will be claimed. I propose that a bit of the difference will be paid out as a bonus to bondholders, and the rest will be donated to one or several charities. Some possibilities include:

The Singularity Institute (http://singularity.org/donate/)
The Bitcoin Foundation (https://www.bitcoinfoundation.org/)

Any other suggestions / opinions on previous suggestions? Smaller noteworthy projects can be considered too.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on November 16, 2012, 10:53:44 AM
Also, either way it looks like not all outstanding bonds will be claimed. I propose that a bit of the difference will be paid out as a bonus to bondholders, and the rest will be donated to one or several charities. Some possibilities include:

The Singularity Institute (http://singularity.org/donate/)
The Bitcoin Foundation (https://www.bitcoinfoundation.org/)

Any other suggestions / opinions on previous suggestions? Smaller noteworthy projects can be considered too.

Seconded, in a rather tardy fashion.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: burnside on November 16, 2012, 06:01:00 PM
I did research into a ton of securities on GLBSE.  I owned a ton of different securities on GLBSE.  My strategy was to get some of everything that looked legit.

I may have had some PureMining when it closed.  I may not have.  I honestly can't remember.  The fact that I am subscribed to the thread leads me to believe that I had some.  (I subscribed to all the threads I had assets in.)

But it sounds to me like you're going to punish me for not remembering.  So how do you think I should proceed?

Do I make a claim now, and just make something up?  ...only to be called a liar later when it's not 100% accurate.

Or do I just risk that maybe I sold all my PureMining and don't remember?  ...and let everyone else jack my stuff.


Cheers.




Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 17, 2012, 04:28:11 PM
But it sounds to me like you're going to punish me for not remembering.  So how do you think I should proceed?
How do you think I should proceed? The GLBSE shutdown was completely botched. Data about asset holders is withheld from issuers for no apparent reason. Even something as simple as mailing asset holders with their up-to-date portfolio - which would solve problems such as yours, which is undoubtedly quite common - hasn't been done. The double-payment thing was simply idiotic. Weeks have passed without any communication.

It is not clear that the data will ever be given. Without the data the options are fairly limited, and while we're waiting we get nonsense like this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=125481.0;topicseen) popping up. Referring to what I'm trying to do as "punishing" you is unfair.

Anyway, to answer your question - what you should do is send me an email with as much information as you can (approximate last amount, approximate highest ever held amount, how much do you usually invest into each of these things, whether you tend to hold or frequently trade, etc.)

Do I make a claim now, and just make something up?  ...only to be called a liar later when it's not 100% accurate.
Don't make things up. As mentioned, even if you really can't recall anything about PureMining in particular, information about your general trading habits are useful. It doesn't need to be 100% accurate.

Or do I just risk that maybe I sold all my PureMining and don't remember?  ...and let everyone else jack my stuff.
I'm making some effort to screen potentially fraudulent claims. Unclaimed bonds will go to charity so you can assume your choices are to try to claim or to forfeit to charity. You can also give input about your preferred charities. I had the idea to use some of the excess as bonus to claimants but now I'm not sure it's a good idea.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: burnside on November 19, 2012, 07:26:16 AM
But it sounds to me like you're going to punish me for not remembering.  So how do you think I should proceed?
How do you think I should proceed? The GLBSE shutdown was completely botched. Data about asset holders is withheld from issuers for no apparent reason. Even something as simple as mailing asset holders with their up-to-date portfolio - which would solve problems such as yours, which is undoubtedly quite common - hasn't been done. The double-payment thing was simply idiotic. Weeks have passed without any communication.

It is not clear that the data will ever be given. Without the data the options are fairly limited, and while we're waiting we get nonsense like this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=125481.0;topicseen) popping up. Referring to what I'm trying to do as "punishing" you is unfair.

Anyway, to answer your question - what you should do is send me an email with as much information as you can (approximate last amount, approximate highest ever held amount, how much do you usually invest into each of these things, whether you tend to hold or frequently trade, etc.)

Do I make a claim now, and just make something up?  ...only to be called a liar later when it's not 100% accurate.
Don't make things up. As mentioned, even if you really can't recall anything about PureMining in particular, information about your general trading habits are useful. It doesn't need to be 100% accurate.

Or do I just risk that maybe I sold all my PureMining and don't remember?  ...and let everyone else jack my stuff.
I'm making some effort to screen potentially fraudulent claims. Unclaimed bonds will go to charity so you can assume your choices are to try to claim or to forfeit to charity. You can also give input about your preferred charities. I had the idea to use some of the excess as bonus to claimants but now I'm not sure it's a good idea.

The fact that he has paid out a ton of BTC to settle balances leads me to believe it's not a scam.  I believe he's either incompetent and it really is taking him this long to code it all, or he's under pressure from an outside entity to delay things.

After he's been given ample time (3 months?  6 months?)  All the asset issuers should file a class action lawsuit against Nefario and we'd wait until that was completed before giving up and screwing everyone over that doesn't have a bitcointalk account.  In theory such a lawsuit would be used to compel Nefario to divulge the database required to operate our issues, or at least to force him to finish up whatever programming he has to do in order to complete the shutdown.

Think about what a real company would do that had real shares in the wild if say, the NYSE shutdown and refused to give up the info... You really think they'd fall back to a first come, first served claim system?  That's just asking for trouble.

In the meantime, all these assets should be continuing business as usual.  After all, not much should have changed, right?  Their shareholders can't swap shares.  Contracts can't be changed... I can't think of much else that would stop any of the issuers from just piling up dividends for a few months?

Heck, even after GLBSE releases the lists, I'm still going to have to pile up dividends for any unclaimed shares, just in case they're late to the game and realize 6 months down the road that GLBSE went poof.  It's called fiduciary duty.

Not targeting you specifically, I'm seeing a lot of assets doing this claim system thing...  Any issuer that actually goes through with the claims system process is just going to open themselves up to a shareholder/bondholder lawsuit later.  I'm worried about you guys!



Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 19, 2012, 10:37:23 AM
The fact that he has paid out a ton of BTC to settle balances leads me to believe it's not a scam.
I don't think it's a scam either. But as is known in the traditional world and as we've seen in Bitcoin, scammers also pay out some amount.

I believe he's either incompetent
I haven't spoken much publicly but for a long time I've been very critical of GLBSE, both with the concept of having it as a centralized service and with how specifically it was run by Nefario. Which is why I'm involved in the colored coins project (plug: I've completed so far 2 chapters on a paper about the subject (https://bitcoil.co.il/BitcoinX.pdf).)

and it really is taking him this long to code it all, or he's under pressure from an outside entity to delay things.
I'm sure code has nothing to do with it, if his intentions are basically good it's being held up on the legal front.

After he's been given ample time (3 months?  6 months?)
Are people really willing to wait that long? This isn't rhetorical, if more people agree with your proposal I'd like to hear it. (A lawsuit will also take an undetermined amount of time in the months or years)

All the asset issuers should file a class action lawsuit against Nefario and we'd wait until that was completed
...
Think about what a real company would do that had real shares in the wild if say, the NYSE shutdown and refused to give up the info...
A real company would need upwards of $10M of valuation and a battery of lawyers before making an IPO. If something bad happened they'd have the resources and infrastructure to handle it (and I doubt the solution will look anything like collecting shareholder data and paying them directly). GLBSE was supposed to be a more lightweight platform and we all signed up for something which allows more entrepreneurship but is devoid of some of the comfort of the traditional system.

The first step would be to find a lawyer who can look at you with a straight face when explaining the case, and even after that's done I for one can't afford the $$$ (possibly more than the market cap of PureMining) to pay lawyers to work on it. If a class action were to happen I would however support it.

before giving up and screwing everyone over that doesn't have a bitcointalk account.
PureMining has two manifestations - this forum thread and http://bitcoinpuremining.com/. Both solicit claims. Someone who bought PureMining bonds without knowing about either of these has quite frankly screwed himself by not having a clue what he's investing in. Likewise if he didn't care enough about his holdings to bother to check these places when the GLBSE problems unfolded.

Sure, you can argue that this is all happening very quickly (in traditional terms) and someone may not be in the loop of what's happening. In a perfect world someone could "buy and forget" and be sure that he would need no further action to take what is his. But this is not a perfect world, you have to draw the line somewhere - I don't like it and I don't think it's right, but it's the least wrong thing we can do with the hand we were dealt.

Keep in mind that unclaimed bonds will be donated one way or another - while it is not ideal to "volunteer" someone to donating, most people could use being a bit more charitable anyway, so this is not a total loss.

I believe this approach is supported by the Halakha. If someone loses something and has given up the search and the hope of finding it, it is considered "Hefker" (abandoned) and can be kept by its finder. This appears to describe people who haven't filed claims for their bonds.

You really think they'd fall back to a first come, first served claim system?
I'm not doing a first come, first served claim system. Any reasonable claim is credited. Of course, as time goes by the claims become inherently less reasonable. In case the claims surpass outstanding bonds, I'll probably scale it down. But the actual situation is that so far the amount of claimed bonds is significantly less than the number outstanding.

In the meantime, all these assets should be continuing business as usual.
Bonds aren't defined by their "business" but by their coupon payments. The contingent fact that I do hedge these bonds with a still-running mining arrangement is irrelevant. Nothing is usual while coupons are not being paid.

I can't think of much else that would stop any of the issuers from just piling up dividends for a few months?
While coupons are piled up people are not being paid what they were promised. Also, the longer I wait the greater the chance that the coins will be lost or stolen, which I will have to pay out of pocket.

Heck, even after GLBSE releases the lists, I'm still going to have to pile up dividends for any unclaimed shares, just in case they're late to the game and realize 6 months down the road that GLBSE went poof.  It's called fiduciary duty.
I'm open to input but in the end you'll do what you think is right, and I'll do mine. To me it is clear that traditional duties may or may not apply; I am not convinced that holding on to funds indefinitely is the one true pretender to the fiduciary duty throne.

The PureMining OP is quite long, and one of the reasons is that I wanted to address several contingencies. I should have spent much more time thinking and writing about those contingency plans; unfortunately, I considered a GLBSE shutdown distant enough to only warrant the following provision:
Quote
If GLBSE where the asset is traded ceases operation, an effort will be made to either call the bonds or replace them with a privately issued equivalent.
Strictly speaking, I could do whatever I see fit and still abide by the letter of contract. Of course, not everything would abide by the spirit of the contract; and I believe my proposal best captures the spirit.

Not targeting you specifically, I'm seeing a lot of assets doing this claim system thing...
If there are several things I hate, one of them is being caught in the crossfire. On one front I have people complaining about issuers doing nothing, and on the other about issuers "doing this claim system thing". You can't please everyone.

Any issuer that actually goes through with the claims system process is just going to open themselves up to a shareholder/bondholder lawsuit later.  I'm worried about you guys!
Thank you for your concern but I very much doubt someone who didn't bother to file a claim would bother filing a lawsuit. If such a lawsuit would go through there is something very wrong indeed with the world.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: burnside on November 19, 2012, 06:56:56 PM
Your points are all good.

I hope that everyone can be patient.  :)




Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 20, 2012, 04:53:11 PM
Rumor has it that Nefario has started sending out asset holder data.

I haven't received anything yet but I contacted Nefario and hope to receive the list of PureMining bondholders soon.

I'm also making some progress towards a technical means to disperse payments once I have that list.

By the way, even with the official list I suspect there will be unclaimed bonds, and we haven't picked the charities yet. (I think we can add Bitcoin100 to the list.)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: BTC-TradingCo on November 20, 2012, 06:13:04 PM
Rumor has it that Nefario has started sending out asset holder data.

I haven't received anything yet but I contacted Nefario and hope to receive the list of PureMining bondholders soon.

I'm also making some progress towards a technical means to disperse payments once I have that list.

By the way, even with the official list I suspect there will be unclaimed bonds, and we haven't picked the charities yet. (I think we can add Bitcoin100 to the list.)

Unless you're wanting to shut down, we have your technical means: https://btct.co/  :)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 21, 2012, 05:42:04 AM
Rumor has it that Nefario has started sending out asset holder data.

I haven't received anything yet but I contacted Nefario and hope to receive the list of PureMining bondholders soon.

I'm also making some progress towards a technical means to disperse payments once I have that list.

By the way, even with the official list I suspect there will be unclaimed bonds, and we haven't picked the charities yet. (I think we can add Bitcoin100 to the list.)
Unless you're wanting to shut down, we have your technical means: https://btct.co/  :)
Thanks, but my days of issuing assets on centralized Bitcoin-based exchanges are over. The payment will be with a static list until I can migrate to colored coins (or possibly Open Transactions).


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 21, 2012, 06:10:21 PM
I am happy to announce I have received a list of bondholders from Nefario.

However, the problems are not over yet. This list is very incomplete - only 6943 claimed bonds out of 15566 (16000 if you count those held by myself). Also, while it is overall consistent with the direct claims I received, there are some surprising omissions.

I will list here the Bitcoin addresses I received and the corresponding number of bonds (I'm not hashing or anything since this will be public knowledge anyway once I start sending payments); please verify that the address you submitted to GLBSE appears here. If it does not appear, or if there is a major discrepancy in the number of bonds, please let me know (email is still glbse at menirosenfeld dot com, PM can work too) and verify that your GLBSE claim has been accepted.

Code:
1MrSjifA8DEaN7Uhb4sBk3F8Kys8HeENmW 1723
15NVXrMhqrkyssA6MowDLahjhhhELjGBoX 926
1Aaza38CfWEo1fJMmVU5xjqbgpQBbw5n2U 560
1GzhK1qx4vTkLhCBwUqaMhvjvDnryjWDEi 512
1BMjJkPZu1dS4ePpomL418UyL92ovhR2z8 350
1HXxASKNBBt5s1dtEmBk85aFQB2iyn8Wik 240
1Bt5qiQyVivwfGEMdGRjnsvu1xBZUGfHgg 229
1F7bofbRqPDVU29Yo89sRtn215H1cyR3Sg 210
1JJPByDjFKNV6Wz7RSCvqSFmnRjcT6ZeiW 201
14vx31xnEx7bTixLPNC2PEAh6bpJms72yv 170
1Ni9fi2P9TiCEdQWc9pkhepPnXYZNRZEXP 154
17RbEbXTtijSdVssMSJeHiLKe2KxE4LYQ3 113
1VzWC6kVDje3tD81CbMtmtLwYzm9BiedD 102
1GSyaokLr4h5k3YECiHXQm6CyN9EMqBdbG 100
1CWmZPpGVnnjhxN7qvpDqXNZpBEA2hH4D3 81
1MR3e419f3B4AVR7zHQVh83Gwyj5okkocr 81
1DRd1waDtV9BJZzQdaMuUZ5jN2Ba56Ehg1 75
1GtDesYuZ674iKzygzrvq4xQ3w3NSSyTUT 74
1FVwrwLeRgZx1XKJTisyT6EQsvUHDoyHt6 70
18kSLPHCzavfWYPzzqVyDA1Fdca238MnYV 70
12NcPjtX6wjYLfmsTYvuTdXYwZ91tE1GFw 53
17JRP2GPXCxCRLSYAKxDPbED5LhQdjn33Y 50
15Ld5XoModQeRRSS6HAPDvydhbJJPDHMVr 50
1CK97PGvm46N51f6XUPxEa1SQLi8AyfCSq 50
15Fd4zjH3MNrQWPrEAkLeb5rQcz1LBfFY6 49
176GqXdxhb9UeJLSKNSrCPB4B9vHnV45QB 48
16Ec1kPD5xk716daQ4ZvJd9XyjdPsdwJJw 42
1KmAm1QMxcZsKALpcJ3FABTdq2NTwwfggb 35
19KDwaNX9xk6aHaBzt2DjZRk6wLj4vAtfF 35
17Gt94xaBPy6KrNWnDRsbmtzdnBVnbtBzz 30
1NXgMFazsNcCmnNK7aYZz38NEqj3SQ9JWk 30
1GbVRYeWrFT9raMhuUw9LuzaTZeKDBC2tD 30
1GaoANJv9tcC7SEMfwfeWnLyK8LtrYAxrb 29
1Q8P38y9Fd4Xs5vkFm4yrbUf4K2yiS4kHc 28
1Prbdh3PFoK4hJS5rdx2S5SA4wQswgvJEb 27
1Hcu6MHKrkkexrfJNDGHRbKpJ9kofVUM1U 26
1BmDkwMccKjFzomVJpkF3ciepdq1kgQjmR 24
1NWBTs8LK7kJUDKe31uncF7nWpaUH14AMg 22
12EaoJCa5Hsuzn7aLjhSAGARvkDcM33cya 22
13J1VbRNG1DXpM8r3m4jnXKJPmq7sFAU1P 20
16Q5cD4yK7HP375rbbXJ9ZtKLKw953TgKw 19
1Df8GTfWasZHJ4svNXR9sGrmXzTRt1Z5BT 15
1EBTCaYFiuN2tf8ryutTRUiUxLM9QS9BML 15
1HTraGKt9Fr3sJ2CEPj4SEyJf64GDEwhmh 11
18vx8giNtScNekKQCyyAvsiSqQYWnjrmsw 10
13ozuJQLrXN21gYZizd3AvPKpuF134382M 9
17ACageWG2KkaUs63rjbxEzfn1DUM82FJr 9
1NG3sHCvpavdGaBsJa2SyaSFHweHZvJGuV 8
1FcJJz4RLaAPtVtotMaPCATkAk1yyKe9XP 8
1EZBPJnbPF15UKoeL9erYiLVeDxBpbMHx5 7
1HUVTLS8V9zaUjXxE2HkaGq4pmszq3HG1 6
1Nth5awpbHmrM8wpQB7eot1VWp7hWjWBsh 6
1AD5PuNxinH2DvPLNSnzLjqcRox42MKydp 6
19vEHZLujAq93v4tzEqVMvbWfhawB8xYh2 6
15qxDJADUcEvKh7D1yuMsr8mvdtExD3naL 5
1AMcBUgEmrGZLemkwc8Tqc6Yvtb7Y86df4 5
138KzLqjWce8d91BLrZKup5pJQ1CdeNkMB 5
19ntWSdcFqBRfxdgXm95Q3G9Mviu3Yvwjn 4
1BUV8TDudsWc1eqNj2HfwU2YpVsoiGKWYn 3
1D1F87t3hb1ueXWf94yy9GUBnFDBVmLu5F 3
126v8kmPVsmAiQxH7YX73feDPWzzVFz8hc 3
1LhRFJsJwM12uQdf7s3TpqXbPoiNWScv5 3
14dWm7sFcC1wSQxk91KJC4kT5VCMEwRdaY 2
181EeG91962JSRU4A1j9LfWLfxxP3sQQ1y 2
13u2RX6Kmm9eiicQmHieeRX6fBjuEubZP7 2
1MgsToxUz7nwKRoLTjiRgfhJQ8xKe92fRY 2
12uUi36ujYRV4s2G3XiSqvUnY77zfhTZrT 2
1HAbHyYCUGhLJP1MX8Fg7hjRy4zuHN48HP 2
1AmqG9JATMyeYK89nnaeB5Lmw3DbjqkdSB 2
1HvfCagw7Rdy6PaeAnoQDwETvrLWF1yyfD 2
1F3JmKp4b1GLuVeoVpoQwvQvDpkJLSZSgY 2
1AEJ5pgRtgxY8e4Qc8UaG7FGUGb6qKFE4F 2
1GfvjCo5zQe7HpnrBFL7tNyvXBRqJm6i8Q 1
12Kx6fhd8vi4K4vKyXbDRp82NGNaz5gJ5V 1
1BJdU4UKNE2bkNTcDMkn7TfNU6DsDc27jQ 1
14iqhdEsvB4HvBthAkZfRpmm92oTBj5rdh 1
14nC5vvoMNeqU5wWn9nkgLzfguQ4srqbfT 1
1FtqnHeF2rqyp6xxnnFrncQAMEwq1SBPBx 1
1NUQXCU4DD9c5VuhY9Mj8BVdn7EWdFLEuN 1
19Bk6FbEXiSCSiTZLxF6mnBr6apfh79DHH 1
1JPgBnLMtz8Vbi7hcfjXkRR4f42kYbUmcd 1
17vPWN6GUoBeBkKVvdDVpLWyn3RohRinLe 1
17b1cP1VB7ue6AZwbM87fSm7pt4YfQKZ6 1
1Epg5PTC5sF5EWVNDUhWuA17RfZ4EzASKA 1
1BZJg9tNbppAzqCN1qPQroMtRdHVkdQR5U 1
1591TioQC4j8iUnkEmxMHbhbaH9vZ5xnBo 1
1382pvZAaB8ysPryqGG2UnpncVYcSD3sv8 1
17B4F27GD5612KSVnmwfcXzkoDXZC3XJ8p 1


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: camolist on November 21, 2012, 10:24:49 PM
1HXxASKNBBt5s1dtEmBk85aFQB2iyn8Wik   240


 8)


can confirm at least in this case info is accurate


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: burnside on November 21, 2012, 11:04:32 PM
I'm not in there.  I'm hoping it's because they sold, I had a lot of sell orders up the couple days before GLBSE shutdown. 

Wish Nefario would let us see what we had at closing time...


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Akka on November 21, 2012, 11:09:28 PM
Wow, I have over 50 Shares!

How cool is that. I had claimed 8 Shares per mail, thought I had bought more since my last documentation, but that is where so many.

Happy!  ;D


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 22, 2012, 02:05:02 PM
Nefario said this in his blog:

Quote
These lists are not 100% complete, users who have not claimed their GLBSE account, and users who have not returned the double payment of bitcoin have not been included.
So it could be that some of the omissions are for people who have received a double payment and did not return it.

I wonder if people who have not received a double payment (meaning, haven't received any payment at all) have also been omitted.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: sarpar on November 22, 2012, 03:51:37 PM
as for me: I am included even though I have not received a payment. To be honest I didnt expect this to happen and am quite happy about the sudden resolution!


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: dishwara on November 22, 2012, 06:20:10 PM
My address is there & seems the number of bonds i have is also correct.
No way to know, as nefario not allowing any one to download their own history.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: TiuraZ on November 23, 2012, 08:55:15 AM
Nefario said this in his blog:

Quote
These lists are not 100% complete, users who have not claimed their GLBSE account, and users who have not returned the double payment of bitcoin have not been included.
So it could be that some of the omissions are for people who have received a double payment and did not return it.

I wonder if people who have not received a double payment (meaning, haven't received any payment at all) have also been omitted.

I was in the list and I didn't receive any payment. Though, I only had some 0.000x bitcoins there at the time of the close up, so he probably rounded it to zero.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on November 23, 2012, 11:22:46 PM
I can also confirm my amount and address is correct :)
my next question would be what value of the share will you honor as being the buy out price and would you consider letting us stay with your bond and revive like monthly payments?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on November 23, 2012, 11:41:42 PM
for anyone interested I tallied up all of the unpaid dividends :)

So as you can see there is 0.0158254174 per share :) as of 9:56 AM 12/5/12 Eastern Standard Time

Work
0.0006574516
0.0007123389
0.0007160227
0.0007084305
0.0007131889
0.0006747238
0.0007071186
0.0006458944
0.0007095636
0.0007414229
0.000670989
0.000648254
0.0007318203
0.0007537936
0.0007201459
0.000732256
0.0007163788
0.0007874637
0.0007542422
0.0006876202
0.000816775
0.0008195228
0.0006589964
0.0006433350 (unpaid)
0.0006323053 (unpaid)
0.0003300744 (unpaid)
0.0003178960 (unpaid)

Total
0.0184080245


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 24, 2012, 04:18:07 PM
Nefario acknowledged that some omissions are due to problems unrelated to any of those mentioned, and says he will send a more complete list at an unspecified time.

my next question would be what value of the share will you honor as being the buy out price and would you consider letting us stay with your bond and revive like monthly payments?
I will continue paying coupons of 1MH/s per bond for a while. When the ELE (extrapolated lifetime earnings with current difficulty) was about 1 BTC the bond traded around 0.4 BTC (40% of the ELE), so when I eventually do a buyback (likely after ASICs have stabilized) I think a fair price will be 50% of the ELE at that time (this is subject to change).

I intend to relaunch this bond as a colored coin, and the pricing will be such that people could use their earnings from the buyback to reinvest in an even greater amount of the new issue.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: burnside on November 24, 2012, 08:10:49 PM
Nefario acknowledged that some omissions are due to problems unrelated to any of those mentioned, and says he will send a more complete list at an unspecified time.

my next question would be what value of the share will you honor as being the buy out price and would you consider letting us stay with your bond and revive like monthly payments?
I will continue paying coupons of 1MH/s per bond for a while. When the ELE (extrapolated lifetime earnings with current difficulty) was about 1 BTC the bond traded around 0.4 BTC (40% of the ELE), so when I eventually do a buyback (likely after ASICs have stabilized) I think a fair price will be 50% of the ELE at that time (this is subject to change).

I intend to relaunch this bond as a colored coin, and the pricing will be such that people could use their earnings from the buyback to reinvest in an even greater amount of the new issue.

What can you tell us about the colored coins?  Are they what OT should be?  (distributed trade-able shares?)
 


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 24, 2012, 08:32:44 PM
Nefario acknowledged that some omissions are due to problems unrelated to any of those mentioned, and says he will send a more complete list at an unspecified time.

my next question would be what value of the share will you honor as being the buy out price and would you consider letting us stay with your bond and revive like monthly payments?
I will continue paying coupons of 1MH/s per bond for a while. When the ELE (extrapolated lifetime earnings with current difficulty) was about 1 BTC the bond traded around 0.4 BTC (40% of the ELE), so when I eventually do a buyback (likely after ASICs have stabilized) I think a fair price will be 50% of the ELE at that time (this is subject to change).

I intend to relaunch this bond as a colored coin, and the pricing will be such that people could use their earnings from the buyback to reinvest in an even greater amount of the new issue.

What can you tell us about the colored coins?  Are they what OT should be?  (distributed trade-able shares?)
The short answer is yes; the longer answer is https://bitcoil.co.il/BitcoinX.pdf (work in progress). killerstorm (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=8620) is leading the development effort of implementing the concept.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 25, 2012, 12:25:03 PM
I have made a test payment of 1 satoshi per bond for bondholders appearing in Nefario's first list. The transaction is f925b5c30a5df8481ec2afa3159fca7e1f55263b92d1abe7dbdeaf31d65330c8 (http://blockchain.info/tx-index/34481243/f925b5c30a5df8481ec2afa3159fca7e1f55263b92d1abe7dbdeaf31d65330c8). (Edit: You can read up on my process here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=127306.msg1356246#msg1356246).)

Within ~1 day I will pay to these bondholders the coupons that have been accumulated from blocks 201935 to 209327, a total of 0.0164844138 BTC per bond. Afterward I will wait for further input from Nefario before proceeding.

Bondholders who are not currently on the list shouldn't worry much. As far as I know the errors in this list are only of omission, so it should be easy to pay the coupons for these blocks to additional holders as they become known to me. If Nefario fails to provide a complete list, I will consider including credible claims even without official confirmation.


There were a total of 16,000 issued bonds of which 434 were held by me (this was a result of working around GLBSE's UI limitations). Rather than paying the coupons for these bonds to myself (which would be silly), I am updating the records to acknowledge 15566 outstanding bonds.


As always I take my reputation very seriously and I would like to clarify how some issues that were raised with other assets relate to me:
1. My obligations are not conditioned on any losses I may suffer or have suffered as a result of the GLBSE shutdown or anything else. The bond is about risk allocation wrt the future of mining, not financing; my mining operation is still running, even without it I have enough assets to back the bond, and even without those I'd work to pay off my debt. If some bondholders cannot be identified I will still pay someone (typically some charitable organization), I will not keep any funds myself as they are not mine to keep.
2. I see no reason and am not intending at this point to lawyer up in relation to PureMining. The scale of PureMining was deliberately small enough to make it legally uninteresting, and I can pay up just fine according to the described plan without any intervention.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on November 25, 2012, 01:19:32 PM
As always I take my reputation very seriously and I would like to clarify how some issues that were raised with other assets relate to me:
1. My obligations are not conditioned on any losses I may suffer or have suffered as a result of the GLBSE shutdown or anything else. The bond is about risk allocation, not financing; my mining operation is still running, even without it I have enough assets to back the bond, and even without those I'd work to pay off my debt. If some bondholders cannot be identified I will still pay someone (typically some charitable organization), I will not keep any funds myself as they are not mine to keep.

I had assumed this to hold true for you, although the same could not be said for some most other bond issuers. I think you have managed your bond - even in the face of the shutdown of an exchange - in an entirely admirable manner, ensuring that your bond-holders are not out of pocket.

When I started to invest on GLBSE I made a "risk vs reward" list of bonds. I invested mainly in Puremining bonds because they were the lowest risk bond on my list and still provided a reasonable reward (ASICs notwithstanding). I'm quite happy about my choice.

Hmmm. I just realised I should have included GLBSE in my "risk vs reward" calculations.



Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 25, 2012, 01:48:18 PM
I had assumed this to hold true for you, although the same could not be said for some most other bond issuers. I think you have managed your bond - even in the face of the shutdown of an exchange - in an entirely admirable manner, ensuring that your bond-holders are not out of pocket.

When I started to invest on GLBSE I made a "risk vs reward" list of bonds. I invested mainly in Puremining bonds because they were the lowest risk bond on my list and still provided a reasonable reward (ASICs notwithstanding). I'm quite happy about my choice.
Thank you for the positive comments.

I think now I'm "allowed" to disclose that I think the traded price for PureMining was a bit high, even assuming 100% probability of being paid as described.

Hmmm. I just realised I should have included GLBSE in my "risk vs reward" calculations.
GLBSE risk is something which I have always considered but always told myself, "come on, it won't really happen" (and I assumed a GLBSE shutdown would be cleaner). I can say the same about many other things lately... It's time the Bitcoin community realizes that risky counterparties are risky.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: burnside on November 26, 2012, 12:29:44 AM
Nefario acknowledged that some omissions are due to problems unrelated to any of those mentioned, and says he will send a more complete list at an unspecified time.

my next question would be what value of the share will you honor as being the buy out price and would you consider letting us stay with your bond and revive like monthly payments?
I will continue paying coupons of 1MH/s per bond for a while. When the ELE (extrapolated lifetime earnings with current difficulty) was about 1 BTC the bond traded around 0.4 BTC (40% of the ELE), so when I eventually do a buyback (likely after ASICs have stabilized) I think a fair price will be 50% of the ELE at that time (this is subject to change).

I intend to relaunch this bond as a colored coin, and the pricing will be such that people could use their earnings from the buyback to reinvest in an even greater amount of the new issue.

What can you tell us about the colored coins?  Are they what OT should be?  (distributed trade-able shares?)
The short answer is yes; the longer answer is https://bitcoil.co.il/BitcoinX.pdf (work in progress). killerstorm (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=8620) is leading the development effort of implementing the concept.

Looks great to me.  Appreciate the info!


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 26, 2012, 01:29:36 PM
Coupon payment for blocks 201935 to 209327 was sent to bondholders in Nefario's first list. 0.0164844138 BTC per bond were paid to 6943 claimed bonds, for a total of 114.45128549 BTC. Transaction is f69173bf19362f7aff12081e41f119fd30b4e43bb39f837c1274e67bedf4915d (http://blockchain.info/tx/f69173bf19362f7aff12081e41f119fd30b4e43bb39f837c1274e67bedf4915d). The change address is 1JPFCUtH2gcADar9xi3A9vStTr9Ba5XKvy. (Note: One payment address was changed at the signed request of its owner.)

Now we wait.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Akka on November 26, 2012, 01:48:49 PM
Thank you so much.

Meni, you made my day. The first share payout since the Mess started. What a relive.

Thank you.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 26, 2012, 01:56:08 PM
Thank you so much.

Meni, you made my day. The first share payout since the Mess started. What a relive.

Thank you.
You're welcome. I guess I made some kind of record then :)

Sadly the problems are far from over as most bondholders still haven't been paid. I hope Nefario can provide more data soon.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Trance104 on November 27, 2012, 02:17:17 AM
I agree! kudos and thank you!


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: senor_coconut on November 27, 2012, 05:14:57 PM
Meni, just wanted to send massive kudos your way too.

My GLBSE investment was about 90% PUREMINING bonds, as other mentioned chosen because of the nice risk/reward ratio.
You've been extremely correct and helpful in our communication since the GLBSE crash.
I am very happy (and suprised) that this all ended up almost without any loss for myself, mainly due to your stance.
I got my dividends already (100% since the GLBSE closure) and am really not worried about where the bonds will be listed/kept later on as you'll surely make a good decision. Count on me for future investments.

And to everyone who still didn't get their funds/bonds back... sincerely hope things work out for you.

All the best
Miguel


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Naelr on November 30, 2012, 03:09:29 AM
Meni,

I also want to extend the Kudos... I received my payout and really appreciate it!  Looking forward to the future with PureMining.


Naelr


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on December 05, 2012, 03:00:18 PM
Meni, I know you have stated before that you had shares that you had retracted because you were unable to sell, now that I have received my dividends would you be interested in allowing me to buy some of those unsold shares?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 05, 2012, 04:08:22 PM
Meni, I know you have stated before that you had shares that you had retracted because you were unable to sell, now that I have received my dividends would you be interested in allowing me to buy some of those unsold shares?
Well, I can always issue new bonds (especially now that I'm doing payments directly) so it doesn't really matter if I had excess bonds or not.

I did specify that I would not sell at less than 0.28 BTC before the ASIC situation settles; on the other hand, with the GLBSE mess what I'd be selling now is a private agreement which is quite different from the publicly traded bonds to which I referred, so I'm not sure it applies.

Additionally, I don't really know how to properly price the bonds at the current situation. ASIC pricing isn't representative as they're not here yet and in short supply, the ELE isn't representative as it will go down considerably once the ASICs arrive. Which is basically the very reason why even when GLBSE was up I wanted to sit it out for a while.

Also, with the closing of GLBSE and the crude direct payments system, I would rather maintain the status quo than issue new obligations. Especially since not all bondholders are accounted for yet.

All that said, you can contact me in PM with more details about what you're interested it, and I can consider it.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 05, 2012, 09:35:26 PM
I have received confirmation from Nefario for a few more of the biggest claims I've received, which goes a bit towards restoring my faith in humanity. I will provide more details and pay out some more coupons in a few days.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Naelr on December 06, 2012, 02:34:15 AM
Meni,

I just want to say I really appreciate how your handling this especially considering the mess currently going on with Gigamining.  I too might be interested in buying some shares if you do decide to offer them before or after ASIC's hit the market.  Keep up the great work...

I also wanted to ask if your going to just go on a schedule with future payouts or go like you used to on GLBSE?

Naelr


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on December 06, 2012, 02:39:50 AM
Yes, I've been watching all the other bonds and I must say, I am so glad I bought from you. You are one of the best most reliable people around. With that said, since I see there is interest I would like to make a suggestion. Since we know the new mining boards will most likely hit within the next 3 months, what if you issued shares at .20 btc and it was stated that they could be bought back at the end of 3 months at the issue price. I personally would love this or any other ideas you have. I have a descent number of bitcoins sitting idle and would like to "put them to use."


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 06, 2012, 06:39:06 AM
I also wanted to ask if your going to just go on a schedule with future payouts or go like you used to on GLBSE?
Are you asking about the frequency of payouts? Once I am sufficiently comfortable with my list of bondholders, I will try to pay out weekly. It is not practical for me to do this 3 times a week, and the primary original reason for it (keeping the price stable) is moot now.

Yes, I've been watching all the other bonds and I must say, I am so glad I bought from you. You are one of the best most reliable people around. With that said, since I see there is interest I would like to make a suggestion. Since we know the new mining boards will most likely hit within the next 3 months, what if you issued shares at .20 btc and it was stated that they could be bought back at the end of 3 months at the issue price. I personally would love this or any other ideas you have. I have a descent number of bitcoins sitting idle and would like to "put them to use."
Personally I think ASICs will be here sooner, and that therefore 0.2 BTC is much overpriced. I don't think it will be worth the hassle to sell new bonds to people, but I will give it some more thought.

It is a very dangerous thought that you must "put your bitcoins to use", and is what caused many of the recent disasters. Your bitcoins are happy where they are, they are safe if you secured them properly, and they will appreciate in value if Bitcoin catches on. Only invest them in things you consider safe and profitable, not just because you feel obliged to.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on December 07, 2012, 09:49:58 PM
Well I guess I'm confused about what your saying, previously you stated that you would honor .28btc per share that was still outstanding (15566 shares). Personally I bought my shares at .37btc and and compounded reinvest my earnings into more PureMining shares. For what I assume is that the block reward is now half, so half of .37btc (which I assume was the staring price) would be .185btc; however, we must also admit that with the way the current market is with mining rigs we can't estimate what will come out when, ButterflyLabs had stated they would come out with the new boards in Oct. and we are still waiting and I personally feel that the best way to keep bitcoin stable is the give the miners and investor and way to "keep their money busy" instead of selling it for USD or any other currency. Just as someone who has money in their savings account is good, but if you have money in there you know your not going to spend, why not put it in a no penalty CD? Furthermore my question for you would be what is a price you deem worthy of selling new shares for? If my accounting is right you have 4,434 share plus any you have personally given back. Now non of us have anywhere near that amount to buy but it would be Feb. before we see the new boards and I'd like to invest in you because first your honest and of all the people I trust you most and value that I might not make the highest yield with you but that I will get an A++ customer service :)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on December 07, 2012, 09:53:48 PM
Also I visit your website (www.bitcoinpuremining.com) pretty frequently and was wondering if you could make it exportable so we could work with making some graphs and such :) please and thank you :)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 08, 2012, 04:48:26 PM
Well I guess I'm confused about what your saying, previously you stated that you would honor .28btc per share that was still outstanding (15566 shares).
I never said I would buy at 0.28 BTC per bond. I said I would not sell at less than 0.28 BTC per bond until the ASIC situation stabilizes.

Personally I bought my shares at .37btc and and compounded reinvest my earnings into more PureMining shares. For what I assume is that the block reward is now half, so half of .37btc (which I assume was the staring price) would be .185btc;
That's not how it works. The valuation of a bond takes into account the future coupon prospects. The reward halving was known in advance, the value of a bond doesn't magically go down when the halving actually happens.

however, we must also admit that with the way the current market is with mining rigs we can't estimate what will come out when, ButterflyLabs had stated they would come out with the new boards in Oct. and we are still waiting
Right. But if ASICs arrive any time soon, a bond will give you much less than 0.2 BTC in its lifetime. If they arrive later, maybe it will give you that in its lifetime. This means that paying 0.2 BTC for such a bond now is a poor investment which will be lossy on average.

and I personally feel that the best way to keep bitcoin stable is the give the miners and investor and way to "keep their money busy" instead of selling it for USD or any other currency.
You don't need need to sell the bitcoins, you can keep them. And no, investing for the sake of investing is not a way to stablize Bitcoin; you need to invest in actually viable ventures, bad investments are bad for both the investor and the economy. If no good investments are around, keep the coins until you find one.

Mining in general may or may not be a good investment. But as I stated I am not currently actively looking to sell more mining bonds, so I will only agree to do it for a price which is too high to be a good investment.

Just as someone who has money in their savings account is good, but if you have money in there you know your not going to spend, why not put it in a no penalty CD?
Traditional currencies are constantly inflating, so it is viable to invest them in safe deposit programs (which at best negate the depreciation), and this is the "neutral" thing to do with them. Bitcoin does not have long-term inflation, and their value has an upward trend, so there is no way to invest them which is safe and generates interest. The neutral thing to do with bitcoins is to just hold them.

Furthermore my question for you would be what is a price you deem worthy of selling new shares for?
I don't know. With some work (which would be too much hassle for what I can expect to gain from it) I could come up with a figure that may be reasonable but there is so much uncertainty that it may end up unfair to investors.

If my accounting is right you have 4,434 share plus any you have personally given back.
I can issue as many bonds as I want. The fact that I issued 20,000 bonds on GLBSE (of which 4,000 were recalled completely, and 434 were held by me) means nothing. Of course it would not be safe for me to issue too many.

before we see the new boards and I'd like to invest in you because first your honest and of all the people I trust you most and value that I might not make the highest yield with you but that I will get an A++ customer service :)
Thank you for your kind words - I will be happy to have you as an investor, when I actually have something I want to offer :)

Also I visit your website (www.bitcoinpuremining.com) pretty frequently and was wondering if you could make it exportable so we could work with making some graphs and such :) please and thank you :)
It's fairly easy to copy the table, paste to notepad, copy and paste to Excel. That's what I do. Is there anything else you need?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 09, 2012, 04:55:07 PM
Nefario has sent additional data including these accounts:

Code:
1EnNyRWR6MnHWirJEZe9UepdakN3KWsxig 4900
12Lo5ijdc1MaHZBqsHuidoWXRLocbYLcJ7 1155
18q9J5iMkvU8kgmYm2oShdPPbaLZWHTAns 453
1Paqi9xBpF2zp8XHfHmQ1uwar5tJCBFJjx 200
1NPt437SqUK9fDEApfw53hvtE3CwdQXBrA 194
1AMPFgxJo17nzR7sQZ87agvtzGr3FfWhoH 178
1NodU1AbhqMMp32nMbxfURcJeMiepvoaMr 126
1ABK4UjEZvDGuwuZRBE3LWwv18WwpgqUy7 112
1Eh18YVchhT51ywdMVuTNMnLzv1Fh2pQWv 1

The following have sent claims to me, which Nefario did not yet confirm but I consider to be legitimate, and hence credit them:
Code:
18H5raWsdAfEJBGYVY7NwkvDMKdTctG8Ym 187
1C1pqZjzaQRFmUYDDe7u2jE22Kuk8eED77 35
1PwwqGvULxMqdLEcw9SmBUXjnU9pUG9p4g 28
18otxBLcwMHHwr2VLa6fiRSoE5Wb2WtNMw 15
167tT98Cnj1RRGUmaSb11n24N4stfC4nJZ 15
1HfktGrjupruzxMsTF7xVMk7LWKR5Uf4GW 1

I am happy to announce that these are all the unmatched claims that I received (up to minor difference in the exact amount of bonds); which means that it is likely nobody tried to scam us (+1 for humanity) and that there will be no unserved bondholders.

I have sent the new approved bondholders (total 7600 bonds) a test payment of 1 satoshi per bond, followed by a payment of 0.0164844138 BTC per bond for blocks 201935 to 209327.

In most cases I have used the Bitcoin address given by Nefario. If you would like to receive coupons to a different address instead, please send me a Bitcoin-signature of the new address signed with the address used for the claim on GLBSE.

There are still 1023 unclaimed bonds. I will give Nefario about a week to send me more names. After this the list will be finalized, with unclaimed bonds distributed between the Bitcoin Foundation, Bitcoin100 and the Singularity Institute (I tried to contact GiveWell about receiving Bitcoin donations, but got no response), and I will start a more regular coupon payment schedule.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: dishwara on December 09, 2012, 04:59:51 PM
In most cases I have used the Bitcoin address given by Nefario. If you would like to receive coupons to a different address instead, please send me a Bitcoin-signature of the new address signed with the address used for the claim on GLBSE.

If you tell how to do "a Bitcoin-signature of the new address signed with the address used for the claim on GLBSE.", it will help many.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 09, 2012, 05:14:34 PM
In most cases I have used the Bitcoin address given by Nefario. If you would like to receive coupons to a different address instead, please send me a Bitcoin-signature of the new address signed with the address used for the claim on GLBSE.

If you tell how to do "a Bitcoin-signature of the new address signed with the address used for the claim on GLBSE.", it will help many.
In Bitcoin-qt: Go to File/Sign message, put the address you submitted to GLBSE in the first box, and the new address in the second box. Click "Sign message" and you'll get the signature in the third box.

In blockchain.info My Wallet: Go to "Receive money", find the row with the address you submitted to GLBSE, open the "Actions" dropdown, and select "Sign Message". Enter the new address in the box, and click "Sign message". A signature field will be added to the dialog.

In other clients: I don't know. Not all of them support this, but if they do it should be similar to the above. You should be able to export the private key and import to another client to sign. Or you could just leave it as is and receive payments to the old address.

In all cases the wallet should of course be in control of the old address; and you should send to me a mail / PM specifying the old address, the new address and the signature.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on December 09, 2012, 08:54:11 PM
Both test amount and bond payment received. Thanks again for managing this so well, even though it's likely been a bunch of extra work you didn't sign up for.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 09, 2012, 09:06:48 PM
Both test amount and bond payment received. Thanks again for managing this so well, even though it's likely been a bunch of extra work you didn't sign up for.
Right, both the bondholders and myself are victims of the GLBSE mess, in different ways. We all signed up to deal with the fallout of a problem with GLBSE, even if we hoped it wouldn't happen, or that it wouldn't be this bad.

I'm using a time tracking software I wrote to keep a record of what I do every minute of every day. I haven't gotten yet to the part of displaying the total per time period, if I ever do it will be interesting to see how much time I've spent on this since GLBSE shut down.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: senor_coconut on December 12, 2012, 09:59:36 AM
Meni can you update us on the next steps?

I'd curious about next dividend payment (when/how) and the progress on implementation of coloured BTC.

Thanks again
M


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 12, 2012, 10:29:01 AM
Meni can you update us on the next steps?

I'd curious about next dividend payment (when/how) and the progress on implementation of coloured BTC.

Thanks again
M
Since making more payments before finalizing the list is very messy, and Nefario says he'll have more accounts for me, I'll give about a week before moving forward.

There's an alpha Armory-based CC client with most of the needed functionality, I expect I'll be able to issue a CC version in about 2 months.

Update: It's not really related, but I've finally received some coins from GLBSE. It's a Hanukkah miracle! I don't yet know for sure what portion this is of my entire deposit.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 15, 2012, 09:49:08 PM
I've been looking for a payment plan that simultaneously doesn't cause

1. Unnecessary delays to confirmed bondholders,
2. Monetary loss to yet unconfirmed bondholders,
3. Monetary loss to me, or
4. An organizational mess.

I eventually came up with the following:

I will pay the coupons to confirmed bondholders on a roughly weekly cycle. Blocks for which this was paid will be denoted "partial" at http://bitcoinpuremining.com/.

"Partial" will at any point in time designate a specific amount of paid bonds, which this thread will be updated with.

Every new confirmed bondholder will be paid retroactively the partially paid coupons, and the number of paid bonds will be adjusted accordingly.

At some unspecified future point in time, all unclaimed bonds will be donated to charity and retroactively paid, and the corresponding blocks will be designated as fully paid.


With this in mind, I have paid 0.0034117507 BTC per bond for blocks 209663 to 212015, a total of 49.61709105 BTC to 14543 bonds. This is transaction 2b7e8173010182e8d32a28eb87aed5769b90d75d3a50b547b6dbb089163a8b94 (http://blockchain.info/tx/2b7e8173010182e8d32a28eb87aed5769b90d75d3a50b547b6dbb089163a8b94).

Some addresses have been changed at the request of the owners.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: lenny_ on December 16, 2012, 11:23:55 PM
That's great plan. I just received first dividend. Thank you!


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: TradeFortress on December 17, 2012, 03:40:07 AM
I've been looking for a payment plan that simultaneously doesn't cause

1. Uunnecessary delays to confirmed bondholders,
2. Monetary loss to yet unconfirmed bondholders,
3. Monetary loss to me, or
4. An organizational mess.

I eventually came up with the following:

I will pay the coupons to confirmed bondholders on a roughly weekly cycle. Blocks for which this was paid will be denoted "partial" at http://bitcoinpuremining.com/.

"Partial" will at any point in time designate a specific amount of paid bonds, which this thread will be updated with.

Every new confirmed bondholder will be paid retroactively the partially paid coupons, and the number of paid bonds will be adjusted accordingly.

At some unspecified future point in time, all unclaimed bonds will be donated to charity and retroactively paid, and the corresponding blocks will be designated as fully paid.


With this in mind, I have paid 0.0034117507 BTC per bond for blocks 209663 to 212015, a total of 49.61709105 BTC to 14543 bonds. This is transaction 2b7e8173010182e8d32a28eb87aed5769b90d75d3a50b547b6dbb089163a8b94 (http://blockchain.info/tx/2b7e8173010182e8d32a28eb87aed5769b90d75d3a50b547b6dbb089163a8b94).

Some addresses have been changed at the request of the owners.

I am buying PureMining bonds for 0.05 BTC each. Considering ASICs are going to hit the market and the low liquidity due to the GLBSE shutdown, this is a great offer.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: viboracecata on December 17, 2012, 07:16:00 AM
I have received both the test payments and bond payments, thx, you are the most honest man I've ever seen in this community :)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ripper234 on December 17, 2012, 08:53:50 AM
I have received both the test payments and bond payments, thx, you are the most honest man I've ever seen in this community :)

+1


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 17, 2012, 09:42:16 AM
I am buying PureMining bonds for 0.05 BTC each. Considering ASICs are going to hit the market and the low liquidity due to the GLBSE shutdown, this is a great offer.
I don't plan to issue new bonds in the immediate future. And I didn't say I would support transfers. (If there is though a transfer request I'll consider it.)

I have received both the test payments and bond payments, thx, you are the most honest man I've ever seen in this community :)
Thank you. But going forward with what I publicly and quite unambiguously committed to do really is the least I could do.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on December 17, 2012, 09:52:00 AM
...... thx, you are the most honest man I've ever seen in this community :)
Thank you. But going forward with what I publicly and quite unambiguously committed to do really is the least I could do.

Compared to some other bond issuers, I think viboracecata's comment holds.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ripper234 on December 17, 2012, 09:52:21 AM
... going forward with what I publicly and quite unambiguously committed to do really is the least I could do.

Some people unfortunately don't share your view.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: lenny_ on December 17, 2012, 12:00:15 PM
I don't plan to issue new bonds in the immediate future. And I didn't say I would support transfers. (If there is though a transfer request I'll consider it.)

But you support change BTC dividend address. When shareholder changes his address you don't need to worry who owns new address.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 17, 2012, 12:30:36 PM
I don't plan to issue new bonds in the immediate future. And I didn't say I would support transfers. (If there is though a transfer request I'll consider it.)
But you support change BTC dividend address. When shareholder changes his address you don't need to worry who owns new address.
I support it for people who want a receiving address other than their generic GLBSE claim address. Using this to turn me into a manual exchange server is an abuse of my goodwill, unless otherwise specified.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 19, 2012, 06:23:17 PM
I have some good news; I have received from Nefario a full list of PureMining bondholders. All bonds are accounted for, however, apparently some users did not file a claim and are thus identified only by an email address and no Bitcoin address.

Over the next week I will try to contact these people to obtain a payment address, check the list for consistency, integrate it into my current records and move forward with the payment plan.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 25, 2012, 01:14:58 PM
The number of unclaimed bonds is down to 186.

Some bondholders haven't responded with a payment address despite two email messages sent starting a week ago. I will wait until the beginning of next week before I split these bonds between SIAI, Bitcoin100 and the Bitcoin foundation, and proceed with regular coupon payments.

Since these bondholders have filed a claim with neither me nor GLBSE in almost 3 months, there is no other data about them other than the email addresses I received, and it is unlikely they will respond after not having done so for a week and a half, I think that's the most reasonable option.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 30, 2012, 07:08:52 PM
As planned, the bondholder list has now been finalized.

A test payment has been sent to new bondholders (d9dc20e0ead0aa68cf6fcf3497fe278adc2566aea3140d85b93ce475ece41794 (http://blockchain.info/tx/d9dc20e0ead0aa68cf6fcf3497fe278adc2566aea3140d85b93ce475ece41794)), which includes 186 unclaimed bonds which have been donated evenly between The Bitcoin Foundation, Bitcoin100 and SIAI (62 bonds each).

This was followed by a back payment of 0.0198961645 BTC per bond for blocks 201935 to 211343 (60f081b5bf75550bc3a9fce20b6daffa80975504dc96d14b24de3306eb8966d8 (http://blockchain.info/tx/60f081b5bf75550bc3a9fce20b6daffa80975504dc96d14b24de3306eb8966d8)).

Then a full list of 15566 bonds have been assembled. It was sent a test payment (94b1539b909b1af3c8b22e9c3293d45099e821b2ee47fa83b95c904cd3212e49 (http://blockchain.info/tx/94b1539b909b1af3c8b22e9c3293d45099e821b2ee47fa83b95c904cd3212e49)). The number of satoshis paid to each address is equal to the number of bonds credited to it, so this is a good opportunity for all bondholders to make sure there isn't any problem.

Then I sent coupon payments for recent blocks:

211679 - 212687: 0.0016092739 BTC per bond - 237bed462683b6b49a7d59b9010bc92e3285a3a8373fced4e16d74e282ed2491 (http://blockchain.info/tx/237bed462683b6b49a7d59b9010bc92e3285a3a8373fced4e16d74e282ed2491)

213023 - 213359: 0.0007286389 BC per bond - 3a8f68d0993288213d566bd23ae1a36f420763186b4e172065aa2bbc6a135e90 (http://blockchain.info/tx/3a8f68d0993288213d566bd23ae1a36f420763186b4e172065aa2bbc6a135e90)

Coupon payments should be more regular from now on. Also, since the list won't change much, there should be no need for more of the annoying test payments.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Naelr on December 31, 2012, 06:14:31 PM
As planned, the bondholder list has now been finalized.

A test payment has been sent to new bondholders (d9dc20e0ead0aa68cf6fcf3497fe278adc2566aea3140d85b93ce475ece41794 (http://blockchain.info/tx/d9dc20e0ead0aa68cf6fcf3497fe278adc2566aea3140d85b93ce475ece41794)), which includes 186 unclaimed bonds which have been donated evenly between The Bitcoin Foundation, Bitcoin100 and SIAI (62 bonds each).

This was followed by a back payment of 0.0198961645 BTC per bond for blocks 201935 to 211343 (60f081b5bf75550bc3a9fce20b6daffa80975504dc96d14b24de3306eb8966d8 (http://blockchain.info/tx/60f081b5bf75550bc3a9fce20b6daffa80975504dc96d14b24de3306eb8966d8)).

Then a full list of 15566 bonds have been assembled. It was sent a test payment (94b1539b909b1af3c8b22e9c3293d45099e821b2ee47fa83b95c904cd3212e49 (http://blockchain.info/tx/94b1539b909b1af3c8b22e9c3293d45099e821b2ee47fa83b95c904cd3212e49)). The number of satoshis paid to each address is equal to the number of bonds credited to it, so this is a good opportunity for all bondholders to make sure there isn't any problem.

Then I sent coupon payments for recent blocks:

211679 - 212687: 0.0016092739 BTC per bond - 237bed462683b6b49a7d59b9010bc92e3285a3a8373fced4e16d74e282ed2491 (http://blockchain.info/tx/237bed462683b6b49a7d59b9010bc92e3285a3a8373fced4e16d74e282ed2491)

213023 - 213359: 0.0007286389 BC per bond - 3a8f68d0993288213d566bd23ae1a36f420763186b4e172065aa2bbc6a135e90 (http://blockchain.info/tx/3a8f68d0993288213d566bd23ae1a36f420763186b4e172065aa2bbc6a135e90)

Coupon payments should be more regular from now on. Also, since the list won't change much, there should be no need for more of the annoying test payments.

Meni ,


OK in my wallet I have received the payment from 237bed462683b6b49a7d59b9010bc92e3285a3a8373fced4e16d74e282ed2491 (http://blockchain.info/tx/237bed462683b6b49a7d59b9010bc92e3285a3a8373fced4e16d74e282ed2491) however it still says 0 of 6 confirmations.  I looked on the link and my wallet address is in there marked and happy why would my wallet say 0 confirmations?  Also the 0.000003 test payment you sent is in there but again 0 confirmations I have transactions after that one that have been confirmed.  Any ideas?

Naelr


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on December 31, 2012, 06:51:20 PM
As planned, the bondholder list has now been finalized.

A test payment has been sent to new bondholders (d9dc20e0ead0aa68cf6fcf3497fe278adc2566aea3140d85b93ce475ece41794 (http://blockchain.info/tx/d9dc20e0ead0aa68cf6fcf3497fe278adc2566aea3140d85b93ce475ece41794)), which includes 186 unclaimed bonds which have been donated evenly between The Bitcoin Foundation, Bitcoin100 and SIAI (62 bonds each).

This was followed by a back payment of 0.0198961645 BTC per bond for blocks 201935 to 211343 (60f081b5bf75550bc3a9fce20b6daffa80975504dc96d14b24de3306eb8966d8 (http://blockchain.info/tx/60f081b5bf75550bc3a9fce20b6daffa80975504dc96d14b24de3306eb8966d8)).

Then a full list of 15566 bonds have been assembled. It was sent a test payment (94b1539b909b1af3c8b22e9c3293d45099e821b2ee47fa83b95c904cd3212e49 (http://blockchain.info/tx/94b1539b909b1af3c8b22e9c3293d45099e821b2ee47fa83b95c904cd3212e49)). The number of satoshis paid to each address is equal to the number of bonds credited to it, so this is a good opportunity for all bondholders to make sure there isn't any problem.

Then I sent coupon payments for recent blocks:

211679 - 212687: 0.0016092739 BTC per bond - 237bed462683b6b49a7d59b9010bc92e3285a3a8373fced4e16d74e282ed2491 (http://blockchain.info/tx/237bed462683b6b49a7d59b9010bc92e3285a3a8373fced4e16d74e282ed2491)

213023 - 213359: 0.0007286389 BC per bond - 3a8f68d0993288213d566bd23ae1a36f420763186b4e172065aa2bbc6a135e90 (http://blockchain.info/tx/3a8f68d0993288213d566bd23ae1a36f420763186b4e172065aa2bbc6a135e90)

Coupon payments should be more regular from now on. Also, since the list won't change much, there should be no need for more of the annoying test payments.

Meni ,


OK in my wallet I have received the payment from 237bed462683b6b49a7d59b9010bc92e3285a3a8373fced4e16d74e282ed2491 (http://blockchain.info/tx/237bed462683b6b49a7d59b9010bc92e3285a3a8373fced4e16d74e282ed2491) however it still says 0 of 6 confirmations.  I looked on the link and my wallet address is in there marked and happy why would my wallet say 0 confirmations?  Also the 0.000003 test payment you sent is in there but again 0 confirmations I have transactions after that one that have been confirmed.  Any ideas?

Naelr
It's not just you, these transactions are indeed unconfirmed. It happens that txs take a while to make it into a block, and the fact that these txs are large and low-priority doesn't help.

It should be resolved within a few days, if not I will contact blockchain.info support (it was sent from a My Wallet).

Update: Seems to be ok now.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Naelr on January 01, 2013, 10:56:42 PM
Confirmed ... it did smooth itself out!  Thanks for the quick reply... Happy New year!


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: lenny_ on January 08, 2013, 03:01:58 PM
Hello Meni, when you going to send rest of old dividends?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on January 08, 2013, 03:06:48 PM
Hello Meni, when you going to send rest of old dividends?
I thought I did, all coupons marked as "full" on http://bitcoinpuremining.com/ have been paid out to 15,566 bonds. Check the outgoing transactions from 1JPFCUtH2gcADar9xi3A9vStTr9Ba5XKvy.

Edit: In your case, the original direct claim address you used was superseded by the official address from GLBSE, to which some of the payments were sent before you requested a change of address.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: lenny_ on January 08, 2013, 03:14:33 PM
Hello Meni, when you going to send rest of old dividends?
I thought I did, all coupons marked as "full" on http://bitcoinpuremining.com/ have been paid out to 15,566 bonds. Check the outgoing transactions from 1JPFCUtH2gcADar9xi3A9vStTr9Ba5XKvy.

Sorry, my fault, I see it now. Trying to put everything together with my shares.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on January 20, 2013, 03:22:55 PM
I tried to do a summary of the coupon payments so far and I found some inconsistencies. It's possible that some coupons were missed.

I need to go over it all again and I prefer to do it when I'm not rushed. I hope to have more time on Tuesday and then I'll pay anything that's missing and also the coupons accrued in the past week.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on January 20, 2013, 03:28:57 PM
Looks like ASICs will finally be with us: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137534.0

Does this mean any change of plan for the bond? (eg forced buy back)

EDIT: I ask because at some point soon the time you spend on the bonds will be worth more than the bonds themselves.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on January 20, 2013, 03:47:10 PM
Looks like ASICs will finally be with us: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=137534.0

Does this mean any change of plan for the bond? (eg forced buy back)

EDIT: I ask because at some point soon the time you spend on the bonds will be worth more than the bonds themselves.
Eventually yes. I'll wait until it is clear that the future output will be insignificant. I'll also try to offer a new series based on CC before discontinuing this one.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on January 22, 2013, 12:34:03 AM
may i ask what is bitcoin cc?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on January 22, 2013, 12:37:11 AM
may i ask what is bitcoin cc?

Coloured coins? (https://bitcoil.co.il/BitcoinX.pdf)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: SNS on January 22, 2013, 12:41:15 AM
may i ask what is bitcoin cc?
colored coin (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=106373.0)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on January 22, 2013, 08:25:31 PM
I checked, the coupon payments were fine AFAICT, there was an error only in my posts about them.

I've paid out coupons for blocks 216383-217391. This post will be updated with details of all coupon payments since the GLBSE shutdown.

I want to verify that coupons before the GLBSE shutdown were paid correctly, but I don't currently have the data for that. Can anyone verify that coupons up to 201599 (as shown in http://bitcoinpuremining.com/) were paid correctly?


Payment list:

https://blockchain.info/tx/f69173bf19362f7aff12081e41f119fd30b4e43bb39f837c1274e67bedf4915d
201935-209327, 0.0164844138 * 6943 = 114.45128549.

https://blockchain.info/tx/74053b2ec13445a6e18f8370a15ab25b306e7a40c8984fdea4bcdb76135c9276
201935-209327, 0.0164844138 * 7600 = 125.281154496.

https://blockchain.info/tx/2b7e8173010182e8d32a28eb87aed5769b90d75d3a50b547b6dbb089163a8b94
209663-212015, 0.003411751 * 14543 = 49.61709105

https://blockchain.info/tx/60f081b5bf75550bc3a9fce20b6daffa80975504dc96d14b24de3306eb8966d8
201935-212015, 0.0198961645 * (1023+3) = 20.41346486

https://blockchain.info/tx/237bed462683b6b49a7d59b9010bc92e3285a3a8373fced4e16d74e282ed2491
212351-213359, 0.0016092739 * 15566 = 25.05995811

https://blockchain.info/tx/3a8f68d0993288213d566bd23ae1a36f420763186b4e172065aa2bbc6a135e90
213695-214031, 0.0007286389 * 15566 = 11.34199363

https://blockchain.info/tx/04cd204f8cc7e69a9cbe85d793ac906408a291c5552507ce4878f98f971342b0
214367-215039, 0.0010807023 * 15566 = 16.82221269

https://blockchain.info/tx/9ece1c8c1909d8d0b56facf15c461af96468ee25031557882987161ea4e0006e
215375-216047, 0.0011330163 * 15566 = 17.63653236

https://blockchain.info/tx/c19d32f8a93e4cfc6457dad5dc2405a710ed5009483ee820bd28e6f4a38905fa
216383-217391, 0.0016009612 * 15566 = 24.92056274

https://blockchain.info/tx/ae0393e3c1decc3c072967f866be6d2eabbd786c110681c5324bd14f7dc55a9d
217727-218399, 0.0011504559 * 15566 = 17.90799713

https://blockchain.info/tx/978a39b6899afd5cc542793952c648d7f4e367dc09c48249e6f063b6f7e9fbce
218735-219071, 0.0007142438 * 15566 = 11.11791957

https://blockchain.info/tx/bcb14044b925e303c18d5cbae738d8244ec339641903d85dab22604bd9adb4eb
219407-220079, 0.0010204803 * 15566 = 15.88479717

https://blockchain.info/tx/6ad62df665889de358f7cbfd1545f2acf4ebe51185ea68a4e406531e1d726e9f
220415-221423, 0.0013074733 * 15566 = 20.35212991

https://blockchain.info/tx/e1507dc1aac7dacf40d0d755f2087274f6d8b2ddb5fb90285cedec9ebe0dd6ab
221759-222767, 0.0010882101 * 15566 = 16.93907933

https://blockchain.info/tx/20c56337f234f016507e393066d48f56706168f401efac7a3178805c06838d99
223103-223775, 0.0008006645 * 15566 = 12.46314412

https://blockchain.info/tx/5eecef1517e3a66dc4f39b2eef07aac1a2c9a9e4877b39cdd30166b1a82bbc69
224111-225119, 0.0009726100 * 15566 = 15.13964726

https://blockchain.info/tx/67c766ab5dda29090b13f6cb49ceb327567f1e15fd9e625d8959eb7f044e9208
225455-226463, 0.0008620529 * 15566 = 13.41871607

https://blockchain.info/tx/9fc82d57dcf0e45ad6f22b7b05a22764b5f37ee49118487151c8d3eb0082e165
226799-228143, 0.0008401403 * 15566 = 13.07762474

https://blockchain.info/tx/713cab6c3f65a02741b54b13f3ed2773c9b26b94d971aa96ac32f212b1bf12b8
228479-229487, 0.0005852612 * 15566 = 9.11017654

https://blockchain.info/tx/c65ad6b9637e63d6a91a18d342d15f2eeca2ab8d32693d55642614ecd6d0924d
229823-230831, 0.0005519634 * 15566 = 8.59186292

https://blockchain.info/tx/817de16663e1b3fda863438aee3a1bcae4f13c48dd45048d773edb6fe6558138
231167-232175, 0.0005274288 * 15566 = 8.20995713

https://blockchain.info/tx/65139e010ed73a601143de4c8fbea66ac4845b43d11fe2d1e383f2ca037a32d8
232511-233519, 0.0004596716 * 15566 = 7.15524874

https://blockchain.info/tx/2a6c81aa0ca75d7bc6217dda187c0e79a436560dec7a5eb1068b6c99048568e6
233855-234527, 0.0003379249 * 15566 = 5.26013950

https://blockchain.info/tx/d4f3a739ab5dbea9aa4c60cdf32a1077e3960e3d7dd4abf4170bd65f0cb74284
234863-235871, 0.0004004890 * 15566 = 6.23401214

https://blockchain.info/tx/f6d09135495931f615adc97fe5e57ec530d27fed3d420c01b8234cf52fbe3626
236207-237215, 0.0003963748 * 15566 = 6.16997061

https://blockchain.info/tx/f6748239a503eb108c9b62e12ebab9505c3ed0563d347ea8c54e2a63aa72d0a7
237551-239231, 0.0004983431 * 15566 = 7.75720927

https://blockchain.info/tx/cf8039c002efbf56ec8c375beba3c6af064f46f17cbff791d48e19cfdb064527
239567-240239, 0.0002006009 * 15566 = 3.12255435

https://blockchain.info/tx/956d08e37fd8b0591cf6fdaf1fe5d05374f0eec534ddda45a1a7f98e51cd8947
240575-241919, 0.0002996340 * 15566 = 4.66410327

https://blockchain.info/tx/0944e037ff5a04f5d2bb17affe2b47e9c3c443b357e8c5215502b1d8adfc2f82
242255-242927, 0.0001697185 * 15566 = 2.64183863

https://blockchain.info/tx/343ddc363ea887a660d989cffe9ea88e6a5473c0996fe531af41ef065a354ba8
243263-244271, 0.0002101316 * 15566 = 3.27090910

https://blockchain.info/tx/d3165d4e0f5ddd1621f6a51e30b632add5455f74db46f540254e4dfb4035a07e
244607-245615, 0.0001784579 * 15566 = 2.77787615

https://blockchain.info/tx/2d6c85cbb151c3aff6579b8d66bac25549c75342c910c6e9672e2aa376010700
245951-246959, 0.0001595653 * 15566 = 2.48379410

https://blockchain.info/tx/c03cba14d5a9ac4b40b837676e951b457924a1ca511bad36d53968e3b714e902
247295-247967, 0.0001067657 * 15566 = 1.66191547

https://blockchain.info/tx/28c581cc23e7bb3fad66dbd6c969602999e40c6df2d4327e2feffb16d346e316
248303-248639, 0.0000714791 * 15566 = 1.11264413

https://blockchain.info/tx/584caaeeddc894f980c9acf159ca8bd98dc0d83e2f5dcfe884609c22b4015d97
248975-249983, 0.0001170319 * 15566 = 1.82171922

https://blockchain.info/tx/2e8459f44f8c4d5a130ef90d18c1834e90cef04d9d306dd55836f157cce2efa5
250319-251327, 0.0000958422 * 15566 = 1.49188032

https://blockchain.info/tx/83d779c47d771ef324f329715cd0901a815df530073b4f4046b17731ee0682dd
251663-253343, 0.0001168990 * 15566 = 1.81965020

https://blockchain.info/tx/13efbaa2309ea1cbfcd5d1fe2d1f04dc1249d0499219907da97ca2a144d5cbc2
253679-255023, 0.0000774211 * 15566 = 1.20513754

https://blockchain.info/tx/d41e03e3142bd2baee7ae16f748d98c057614efd690dc57249c786d64a4d5419
255359-256703, 0.0000600750 * 15566 = 0.93512777

https://blockchain.info/tx/f0b080c70edbf4bf191f0965b9c5038e17880e549bd83e1cfa6dc033de4fbd5d
257039-258047, 0.0000390851 * 15566 = 0.60839936

https://blockchain.info/tx/7ccb8b05e04894efb26fba82f092acf0675192fdb681143a2a12cccd3f6a95df
258383-259055, 0.0000255479 * 15566 = 0.39767909

https://blockchain.info/tx/7bc57d7e84adb3a6943cf06322dbf4f23f48c497676f1b77f2f3939baf819d84
259391-262079, 0.0000589863 * 15566 = 0.91818136

https://blockchain.info/tx/6bdc680ba9223435a74e5bd063d04dc97e5d080ecf04c11635202fee593532fa
262415-263087, 0.0000152635 * 15566 = 0.23759228

https://blockchain.info/tx/1cc79b18ac0f2d19203f09654f9e3c141328367239e8fe00cd94237b1f795438
263423-264767, 0.0000177928 * 15566 = 0.27696332

https://blockchain.info/tx/3da8b1ab5f02159b62db4048de2e0ba4e4636cb2ae17540b176bd17a06556db0
265103-267455, 0.0000205785 * 15566 = 0.32032539

https://blockchain.info/tx/b9558f9ef18dfd029181ecddf73cf779003ff939eab5b9738cfee799cb787ab0
267791-271487, 0.0000228996 * 15566 = 0.3564555

https://blockchain.info/tx/cba351bc2ada1cabbf8279f3f7bb8903944eb00de0b6d503d02b2aa3db38abd6
271823-276863, 0.0000186136 * 15566 = 0.2897399

https://blockchain.info/tx/7ef15a188f4f4d85ccb024c214df6f2e9b62f6340c219582591eae21db49e486
277199-282911, 0.0000113408 * 15566 = 0.17653161

https://blockchain.info/tx/19d9673535bef762a5c6abea4e14f14204f2f6a05a53c1379ae2d477e140c9dd
283247-292319, 0.0000088978 * 15566 = 0.13850367


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: viboracecata on January 29, 2013, 08:26:55 AM
No dividends this week?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on January 29, 2013, 12:02:08 PM
No dividends this week?
Since I made a payment in the middle of last week it didn't seem critical to make a payment in the beginning of this one, but at your request I've now sent the payment for blocks 217727-218399.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Naelr on March 03, 2013, 06:53:29 PM
I just received a rather large payment for the number of shares I have... did we miss a couple of weeks?

naelr


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 03, 2013, 07:28:19 PM
I just received a rather large payment for the number of shares I have... did we miss a couple of weeks?

naelr
No, payment has been more or less weekly and I will soon send latest week's payment. I think what you got is the ASICMINER dividend.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Naelr on March 03, 2013, 08:59:37 PM
I just received a rather large payment for the number of shares I have... did we miss a couple of weeks?

naelr
No, payment has been more or less weekly and I will soon send latest week's payment. I think what you got is the ASICMINER dividend.

Perhaps your right... the same payout because of GLBSE thanks for reminding me of that!

Naelr


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on April 07, 2013, 12:29:39 AM
Hey guys BitCoinPureMining.com is down what's up?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 07, 2013, 01:59:25 PM
Hey guys BitCoinPureMining.com is down what's up?
It works for me, maybe there was a temporary problem with the host.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: dishwara on April 07, 2013, 02:12:05 PM
Meni Rosenfeld, no payments for more than a month?

yes, payments was given on 10 march, 19 march, 28 march, 4 april.
didn't check address.

Edited


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on April 07, 2013, 02:20:25 PM
Meni Rosenfeld, no payments for more than a month?

I've had mine. Last 4 were 10th March, 19th March, 27th March and 4th April.



Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on April 07, 2013, 04:41:35 PM
Thanks, for some odd reason the website won't load for me :(
anyway my next question is since the difficulty and network total keep going up, thus making mining less profitable everyday, is there a point where you would consider switching a portion to other alt coins? for example litecoin and ppcoin are making more money with mining power and if that was sold at market price it would make for a profit increase, just an idea :) Thanks :)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on April 07, 2013, 04:50:31 PM
just wanted to add this website is great for showing mining power in relation to how many coins you can get for each alt coin :)
http://dustcoin.com/mining (http://dustcoin.com/mining)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 07, 2013, 05:29:31 PM
Thanks, for some odd reason the website won't load for me :(
anyway my next question is since the difficulty and network total keep going up, thus making mining less profitable everyday, is there a point where you would consider switching a portion to other alt coins? for example litecoin and ppcoin are making more money with mining power and if that was sold at market price it would make for a profit increase, just an idea :) Thanks :)
PureMining is deterministic so these considerations won't affect the coupon payments.

Anyway, the mining used to hedge this are based on BFL FPGA (hopefully, soon to be upgraded to ASIC) which I don't think is suitable for these alts.

Meni Rosenfeld, no payments for more than a month?

yes, payments was given on 10 march, 19 march, 28 march, 4 april.
didn't check address.

Edited
This post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=65569.msg1471517#msg1471517) is kept up to date with the coupon payments.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on April 07, 2013, 05:33:20 PM
Thats great to hear you are upgrading to ASIC will this cost us something or is this a friendly upgrade  ;)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 07, 2013, 05:43:46 PM
Thats great to hear you are upgrading to ASIC will this cost us something or is this a friendly upgrade  ;)
As I clarified now and multiple times earlier, PureMining is a deterministic bond. It is not affected by private events such as an ASIC upgrade.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: viboracecata on April 12, 2013, 04:22:03 AM
What's the payment period of PureMining?

From twice per week, to once per week, and ten days one payment.

What day payments of this time will happen?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 12, 2013, 07:22:34 AM
What's the payment period of PureMining?

From twice per week, to once per week, and ten days one payment.

What day payments of this time will happen?
Sent a coupon now and will try to restore the weekly schedule.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on April 20, 2013, 04:54:57 PM
you mentioned you are upgrading to ASIC may you say through what supplier you are using?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 20, 2013, 06:45:03 PM
you mentioned you are upgrading to ASIC may you say through what supplier you are using?
As I explained, I'm using BFL hardware and their upgrade program.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Abu22 on April 21, 2013, 03:36:26 AM
Hi, so far you've been one of the most helpful, honest and profitiable (dividend wise) bitcoin venture I've put money into... Are you still waiting for a secure colored coin platform or similar before re opening your doors to more investors etc? I ask this because I'm interested in some more shares...But would also like the abimilty to easily liquify the shares as I see fit..So would only be comfortable trading through some stock exchange medium. Bitfunder doesn't float your boat? Anyway, thanks bye.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 21, 2013, 08:28:18 AM
Hi, so far you've been one of the most helpful, honest and profitiable (dividend wise) bitcoin venture I've put money into... Are you still waiting for a secure colored coin platform or similar before re opening your doors to more investors etc? I ask this because I'm interested in some more shares...But would also like the abimilty to easily liquify the shares as I see fit..So would only be comfortable trading through some stock exchange medium. Bitfunder doesn't float your boat? Anyway, thanks bye.
If I do issue new bonds it will be in the form of colored coins. But with the explosive growth of Bitcoin in general and in Israel in particular, my other businesses consume roughly 200% of my time, so this is unlikely to happen in the near future.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: senor_coconut on April 25, 2013, 04:01:25 PM
Hi, so far you've been one of the most helpful, honest and profitiable (dividend wise) bitcoin venture I've put money into... Are you still waiting for a secure colored coin platform or similar before re opening your doors to more investors etc? I ask this because I'm interested in some more shares...But would also like the abimilty to easily liquify the shares as I see fit..So would only be comfortable trading through some stock exchange medium. Bitfunder doesn't float your boat? Anyway, thanks bye.

Bump.

Meni, should you find the time please let me know too, I'd be interested in buying in.
And thanks for your honesty and being an exception around here.
You're not just getting BTC, you're getting karma points from many of us.
All the best
M


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: viboracecata on April 26, 2013, 10:06:15 AM
Hi, so far you've been one of the most helpful, honest and profitiable (dividend wise) bitcoin venture I've put money into... Are you still waiting for a secure colored coin platform or similar before re opening your doors to more investors etc? I ask this because I'm interested in some more shares...But would also like the abimilty to easily liquify the shares as I see fit..So would only be comfortable trading through some stock exchange medium. Bitfunder doesn't float your boat? Anyway, thanks bye.

Bump.

Meni, should you find the time please let me know too, I'd be interested in buying in.
And thanks for your honesty and being an exception around here.
You're not just getting BTC, you're getting karma points from many of us.
All the best
M
+1


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on May 13, 2013, 09:53:53 PM
Have you ever considered relaunching on BTC Trading Corp? https://btct.co (https://btct.co)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on May 14, 2013, 05:59:35 AM
Have you ever considered relaunching on BTC Trading Corp? https://btct.co (https://btct.co)
If I do relaunch, I intend it to be using a decentralized platform such as colored coins.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on May 14, 2013, 07:20:52 PM
Ok, thanks for the reply :) Also this might be a stupid question but why not buy ASICMiner equipment as the upgrade and sell the old hardware verse using BFL and their buy back program?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on July 03, 2013, 01:52:11 AM
any new news?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ripper234 on July 03, 2013, 08:46:29 AM
any new news?

Meni's out of new news at the moment.
Care for some old news? ;)


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on July 03, 2013, 02:23:07 PM
any new news?
Not at this time.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on October 16, 2013, 05:18:38 PM
So any new news? I knew you were talking about investing into ASIC's any news on that?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on October 16, 2013, 05:46:42 PM
So any new news? I knew you were talking about investing into ASIC's any news on that?
2 of the 3 BFL 500 GH/s rigs I ordered are now operational. Why do you ask?


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: ThePanCakeKid95 on October 20, 2013, 03:17:06 AM
I was just wondering, I like to stay informed with PureMining and also since I'm invested in it lol :P


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: trifith on November 26, 2013, 02:05:08 PM
I've been 'receiving' a dividend from puremining about once a week lately that never confirms. Any info available on this?

See for example, https://blockchain.info/tx/3da8b1ab5f02159b62db4048de2e0ba4e4636cb2ae17540b176bd17a06556db0 from 11/24 and unconfirmed


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on November 26, 2013, 08:25:59 PM
I've been 'receiving' a dividend from puremining about once a week lately that never confirms. Any info available on this?

See for example, https://blockchain.info/tx/3da8b1ab5f02159b62db4048de2e0ba4e4636cb2ae17540b176bd17a06556db0 from 11/24 and unconfirmed
It's a known problem. Or at least, I know this transaction (from Nov 2) hasn't confirmed, I didn't know you get repeat notifications about it.

The API call to blockchain.info that I used so far used their default fee, which apparently isn't sufficient for this transaction. I've since started paying a higher fee. If the tx doesn't confirm I'll send another tx for the payment, and I hope the unconfirmed one will be forgotten eventually.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on March 25, 2014, 05:57:12 PM
The difficulty is now so high that paying the coupons regularly is no longer worth the trouble, for me and I suspect also for the bondholders. I will therefore move forward with buying back the bonds.

The original buyback clause stated the price will be 120% of the GLBSE highest recent traded price. GLBSE no longer exists so that's irrelevant. However, I've noticed that during the time the bond was traded, it went for about 40% of the ELE (extrapolated lifetime earnings). Therefore I believe a buyback price of 55% of the current ELE is fair.

The formula for calculating the ELE for a 1 MH/s bond is

RemainingUnmintedBTC * Hashrate * SecondsInDay * DaysInTwoWeeks / (2^32 * 2016 * Difficulty) =
8439175 * 1000000 * 86400 * 14 / (4294967296 * 2016 * 5006860589) = 0.0002355

55% of that is 0.1296 mBTC per bond, a total of 2.0173536 BTC.

I intend to go forward with the payout in the next few days. If anyone has a reason why I should not, speak now or forever hold your peace.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Naelr on March 25, 2014, 06:28:16 PM
Make it so Number One!

You have been as fair as anyone could have hoped for and I for one appreciate everything you have done... Good luck with all you do in the future and thank you for all your hard work.

Naelr


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: organofcorti on March 26, 2014, 12:24:51 AM
Sounds quite fair. Thanks for creating, (and maintaining and ending fairly) the most reliable instrument to have been a part of GLBSE.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: lenny_ on March 26, 2014, 12:37:27 AM
Thanks for everything, Meni. I will be happy to receive final payout as you calculated.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: tablekart on April 04, 2014, 06:33:12 PM
it should be useful to continue to run PureMining in Colored Coins
just as promotion and test for Colored Coins


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Meni Rosenfeld on April 06, 2014, 08:02:01 AM
It is done. The payments have been sent in transaction b9c7cd2a6192818c9c1e2b8824e62361477dfdaa8b340be8d492fd1aac601507 (https://blockchain.info/tx/b9c7cd2a6192818c9c1e2b8824e62361477dfdaa8b340be8d492fd1aac601507).

Thank you everyone for your support throughout the many phases of this bond's 2-year life.

it should be useful to continue to run PureMining in Colored Coins
just as promotion and test for Colored Coins
This is true. But in order to do a service to Colored Coins it needs to be done at a meaningful scale, which comes with a set of legal and operational challenges. Perhaps at some future time.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: lenny_ on April 06, 2014, 10:06:29 AM
Thanks for all your work, Meni.


Title: Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond
Post by: Surf Capital Management on April 07, 2014, 12:59:58 AM
Thanks for all your work, Meni.

+1