Bitcoin Forum

Short trade = $597
Stop Loss = $601

Actual price of stop loss order = $608....and that is on 6 fucking BTC (I wouldn't have much more funds on BFX than that)!

FUCK YOU BITFINEX YOU FILTHY FRONT RUNNING FAKE VOLUME THIEVING FUCKING FRENCH CUNTS! WHERE WAS THE 50 BTC ORDER THAT WAS RIGHT BEHIND MY FUCKING STOP LOSS YOU FUCKING ROBBING RAT BASTARDS!"
*A

step 1 : buy
step 2 : hold
step 3 : repeat


Fucking retarded 5 btc day trader.

It seems like you don't like bitfinex  ;D
Why don't you change your signature.

And also, I was thinking of how day trading or something of this nature would work. Lets say a btc is bought for 500 and then sold at 510 a few min later. Then a btc is bought in at 490. I am just thinking that the person that gained from this quick trading made a profit (at a cost of whoever bought it). I feel like the exchanges might have to eat those costs (so maybe they just try to avoid eating all the extra costs).

This is just a thought and I do not know about how bitfinex works (seem complex). But everyone gotta do whats best for them in the end.

Ah....the Dutch loser who thinks its ok to come on a web forum, whinging that the market is never going back up to his break even point, and then post images of some 8 year old child with cancer that he lifted of a charity website, and claim that he needs money to raise funds for medical treatment.

Thanks for reminding me that there are always people out there in considerably worse states than I could ever be, in more ways than one.

Pretty delusional..
Atleast I have allot of btc you could only dream off.
Fud spreading loser.

Congratulations. You sound like a 5 year old.

I don't like Bitfinex. Inviting people to trade Bitfinex where they can swim with sharks and wrestle with vipers is hardly a ringing endorsement of the place, I wouldn't have thought.

But there is another stone wall example of crooked Bitfinex in action. There was around 600 BTC in between $599 and $605, with all the orders of course at different price levels. Yet here is the trading for the break above 600 btc:

02:00:58 602.29      0.1
02:00:56 600.3        1.00626
02:00:55 608.13      319.168
02:00:24 600          255.374
02:00:17 599.91      0.01

In green, is the Ask wall which my stop loss order was sitting behind. There was as any reasonably minded person could imagine, a whole array of other double figure and single figure and indeed decimal bids in between 600 and 608. Why therefore was the next 319.168 of bids all sold at 608.13, my paltry 6 BTC amongst them when there was a whole raft of bids in between $600 and $608!?

BITFINEX CAUGHT RED HANDED STEALING!

I really don't understand the outrage. I think it's best to *assume* crap like that is going on, and only participate if you A) knowingly accept the risk, B) have some way to mitigate it.

This is why I keep ~0BTC and 0FIAT on *any* exchange.

LOL. Yeah, I learned that before but the problem with me is that I don't learn.

On the otherhand, I think I have figured out how Bitfinex operate their stop loss farming. When the short stop loss zone was triggered, Bitfinex exchange front ran and bought out all the Ask wall above the $600 zone required to meet the squeezed shorts, and then sold all the coins to the shorts at the highest price before other bids started again. I witnessed it happen and  if I really wanted to, I bet data could be dug up that prove Bitfinex are crooks and are doing things on their exchange that is basically fraud and worthy of jail sentences.

I don't get it, are you suffering from some variation of Stockholms Syndrome or why do you still use bitfinex?

Just small amounts.

I have been calling the market pretty well recently so am thinking; "fuck it, a small play fund just so I can hone my abilities at going short as well as long". But Bitfinex are theives. I witnessed it happen. A combination of insider trading and front running.

Insider Stop Farming and Front Running combined to rob traders blind.

Why the fuck would you be shorting right now?

Who is to say a user of the site is not putting up walls to fake support and then remove them, move the price, and take your coins? Anyone can do that.

This was a short from a few days ago, when all the indicators were pointing to downtime. I originally shorted at $610, but decided I wanted to wait until the consolidation formation broke to the downside, which it did, so I shorted at $597. We got down as far as $580, but I never took my profits, twice! But I left the short trade running as Bitcoin looked more likely to me to retest trendline than break up. My Target was $565. Next time, I shall settle for paltry profits and cut my own throat as Bitcoin goes on to make $100 move in whatever direction.....happens all the time.


Could be, but it all happens a little too quick and neat for it to be anybody who isn't an exchange insider. Same thing just happened again on BFX. ~250 BTC Short Squeeze trades all being executed at $615 as Bitcoin on BFX jumps from $608 to $615 within the next millisecond. What, not a single Ask order in between 608 and 615 just like there wasn't between 600 and 608? It is obvious. The exchange bot knows where the bext batch of juicy stop orders are, it front runs the market, buys up all the Bitcoin required to fill stop orders, and then sells as high up the market as it can before other genuine trades begin. This explains all these weird and erratic spikes and dips u see on Bitfinex.

If this is true, how come when I watched the buys go by live, it didnt jump to $608? Instead it ate thru $600 and then went thru shallow waters to $608?

The only oddity I saw was that shortly after breaking $600 and moving to  ~603, someone put a 100.7BTC ask at $600 again, that got eaten really quick. This was seconds after $600 went down, and the 100B wall was eaten in seconds after being placed.

In BitFinex, bitcoin shorts you!  ;D

Post of the day.

LOL Bitfinex isn't running a scam to con you out of your 6btc.

LOL

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv10/JimboToronto/trayDURRz.jpg (http://s664.photobucket.com/user/JimboToronto/media/trayDURRz.jpg.html)

I've been following Mat's post for a while now... and yes Mat can be a bit over the top and excitable, but I really appreciate his diligence in watching bitfinex. It's not only possible but entirely likely that bitfinex is doing what Mat believes they are doing. There is no reason for bitfinex not to do what they are doing... no one, until Mat, is looking over their shoulder. More importantly, there is almost zero downside risk for bitfinex to engage in these practices.

How much stupidity can a man take?

MatTheCat has been all over the place accusing Bitfinex of painting the tape, rigging the market, scamming customers, you name it.....

Mat, I believe the time to put your wallet where your mouth is has come.

I challenge you in a 10:1 bet.

If you can point out any transaction where there are no real parties involved ( that is Bitfinex is one or both of those 2 ) you will get 100 Bitcoins as a reward from me.
But if you are proven wrong in your assumption you will have to pay 10 BTC ( 5 BTC each) to the happy real parties of the above mentioned transaction ( that is I will not earn anything but will prove you are a retarded troll full of shit).  

I'm ready to put the 100 BTC into an escrow service that will regulate the bet and decide who the winner is any time.
Are you ready to do the same and put your 10 BTC (I suppose you own them, but I might be wrong in my assumption as retards like you tend to lose all their coins in losing bets) ?

Let me guess.... another avalanche of insults, false allegations and blah blah blah will follow.....

But at the end of the day: money talks bullshit walks.

Time has come to prove you are a man and not just a kid that blames his losing trades on bad luck or dishonest people.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

How about instead of a bet, you address the issue he posted or challenge what he has said and prove it to be wrong with some information/data

grow up! bitfinex is not for kids and day trading bitcoin either.

Indeed , I heard rumors he is an autistic 17 year old kid trying to short with 1 btc total.

I think Mat should really stop with his constant attacks on Bitfinex all over this forum. I can understand people to not trust exchanges, especially after MtGox, but constantly badmouthing them without any real proof is just very bad form and technically against the law as well. Just don't do business with them, or come with some definite proof and not with some vague story about how your stop loss was executed too high and they stole your money.

Good one   ;)  
Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

Atm, mat is the  biggest forum troll  , what a loser he is.

Damn LOST again, its the whale's...., its......



ElectricMucus  
@ I don't get it, are you suffering from some variation of Stockholms Syndrome or why do you still use bitfinex?


Made me Rofl.....DD


H

Nope. My stop loss would be one of many.

BFX is a love hate thing..... but dont see why MTC would be short when DanV is in fact agressively long today.

supply liquidity to BFX and you will be rewarded, take liquidity from BFX and it will punish you.

Ah, the head rat himself.

Instead of talking about these phantom flash trades that appear out of knowhere and buff your exchanges volume without altering Ask/Bid walls, let us talk about last night.

Here is the Bitfinex trades as reported on Bitcoinwisdom:

02:00:58 602.29      0.1
02:00:56 600.3        1.00626
02:00:55 608.13      319.168
02:00:24 600          255.374
02:00:17 599.91      0.01

Now to start us off, perhaps you can explain where all the Asks orders were between $600 and $608. I would like to know as I had a stop loss sitting just above a large ask wall at $599.91 which was about 250 strong. There were plenty other single and double digit Ask orders above me, including a 100 BTC at $605. So why is it that the very next trade on Bitfinex was for 319 Bitcoins  @ 608.13? Where did all the Ask orders go. Perhaps their is a bug with Bitcoinwisdom reporting data from Bitfinex. If that were the case, why was my stop loss order which I had placed at $600.11, not triggered until $608.13? My trade was only for 6 BTC, hardly orderbook devouring. Why one minute was there several hundred BTC worth of orders between 600 and 608 USD on Bitfinex, and then the next minute one large order for 319.168 BTC executed at $608?

WHERE DID ALL THE FUCKING OTHER ASK ORDERS GO GIANCARLO U FUCKING THIEVING FRENCH PRICK? DID YOUR BOT CALCULATE HOW MANY STOP ORDERS WERE IN LINE FOR TRIGGERING, THEN DO A SPOT OF FRONT RUNNING WALL BUYING ONLY TO SELL THE COINS BACK TO THE STOP LOSSES AT THE HIGHEST POSSIBLE PRICE BEFORE THE REAL ASK WALL ORDERS RECOMMENCED?

Go on, explain what happened in that predictable 'Fuck You' short squeeze fake out rally which resulted in a $615 high on Bitfinex, thanks to another large 250 BTC trade that took price from 608 straight to 615, before the price was smacked right back down to 607 again. That whole rally on Bitfinex was based on squeezing short traders stop loss orders. No doubt the same thing applied on Huobi. This is why your exchange is full of erratic price dips and spikes. You lads just can't stop yourselves from front running and farming stop loss orders even when it makes your exchange appear visibly dodgy as fuck to any onlooker with an iota of common sense.

The only 'bet' I would get involved in with you would be a man 2 man square go where I would get the opportunity to punch your fucking cunt in.

Your exchange will be involved in the next of the already too numerous grand Bitcoin daylight heists. Of that I am certain.

My target was in the first instance $570. It was just a small trade based on which way the short term indicators were pointing. Had I stuck to my guns, I would have been in my short at $610 which would have allowed me max profits of $30 per BTC. I would have settled for that sort of margin.

and DanV aint so fantastic. He is squeezing everything in to fit his rigid formula. There is also a very strong chance that Bitcoin will correct much further from here, breaking that long term support trendline since Jan 2013. I am not saying that Bitcoin will definitely do this, I am saying that there is a good chance that it might based on the sort of indicators that I am looking at and last night's rally based largely on the crook exchanges triggering stop losses (how many times have we seen these 'break out' rallies from Huobi and BFX?) doesn't do anything to fill me with confidence.

so, Mat, basically you are promoting Bitfinex and your bad trading skills?

That was a trade where I had planned for taking a max potential $24 loss + fees. Thanks to the unique way in which Bitfinex 'manage' Stop loss orders, my loss ended up being more like $72 plus exchange fees.

If the price reaches the stop price, the platform does a marketbuy. What else do you expect?

So where did all the Ask orders go between $600 and $608?

Does it sound plausible to you that there were indeed several hundred BTC worth of Ask orders in between $600 and $608?

If so, why was the market order triggered in it's 319 BTC entirety at $608, when the previous order executed at $600? Does that not seem a bit strange to you?


02:00:58 602.29      0.1
02:00:56 600.3        1.00626
02:00:55 608.13      319.168
02:00:24 600          255.374
02:00:17 599.91      0.01

Edit: Looking forward to hearing Giancarlo's explanation for the above occurrence, which is something that is happening on BFX all the time. Lucrative work if you can get it!

Your right, that sounds a bit strange, almost like someone else had a bigger (en earlier) stoploss at exactly your price.

Edit: btw, i don't see your 6btc stoploss in the log you posted? maybe bfx groups them?

What if there were many stop losses that were triggered right before yours was triggered? I can imagine quite a few stop losses were sitting right above $600, not just yours.

I know that there would have been a lot of stop losses from traders taking small short trades following exactly the same text-book rules as I was, but before I start ranting about exchange insiders intentionally going after these stops, I shall state this:

If there that many stop losses that mine simply got bumped to the very back of the queue. Why wasn't anyone 'served' before me? Why does the ticker for Bitfinex report this:

02:00:58 602.29      0.1
02:00:56 600.3        1.00626
02:00:55 608.13      319.168
02:00:24 600          255.374
02:00:17 599.91      0.01

Why wasn't there any trades executed at 601, 602, 603 etc, where there were plenty Ask orders in wall along this small range? Amongst the double and single digit Ask orders that stood in the way of $600 and $608, was a 100 BTC order at $604.99. Why wasn't that triggered at the price which the trader who made the order set it at? I bet that insofar as it was a real order, that the trader only got paid his $604.99 minus fees. I wish had taken a screenshot of the Bitfinex order book just a second before the short squeeze happened to illustrate and emphasise the situation to those who skim read and come to conclusions like: "well, of course stop losses will be closed with market orders"

If Bitfinex's policy with gluts of stop loss orders is to simply sweep up all the coins in the Ask wall required to fill the stops in a certain range, and then sell those coins to Stop Orders at highest possible price before Ask Wall depth recommences, then i am afraid that this is a form of front running and insider trading.

I hope the price doesn't do what it has the last 5 years in a row and go up 10x later this year. Because you are going to be kicking yourself Mat.

Why are you playing with leverage?! Einstein's definition of insanity comes to mind.

Read back my latest reply.

I have a feeling that BFX may be grouping the stoploss orders for the ticker (I think i have seen this for margin calls aswel). So i think someone had there stoplosses filled in the 602-607 range. but it is simply not displayed in the ticker.

Place your bet on the table and I'll explain anything you want.
Then I will take your 10 BTC and give them to people that will cheer up to your stupidity.
You are a kid that doesn't even know what he's talking about.
If you don't like Bitfinex why do you keep trading on it, you retarded prick?
As we had nothing better to do than stealing candies from retarded kids like you, you don't even have 3 btc (2.5 to be exact) in your pocket.

Grow up and learn to take the blame of your own stupidity instead of insulting others.

Just get a life.


Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

So essentially all you are saying is: Hurr, durr you can't prove it.

Sure that makes it ok, right?

That's asking a lot from MatTheTwat.

you disclose a customers balance?
really?

So it was just my bad luck that my stop loss set at a smidgeon above $600 was sent to the very back of the queue and triggered at the very same price as the 319 BTC order registered at?

Really?




That is correct. I only have 2.65 on your exchange. I have managed to lose 0.35 BTC of the 3 BTC that I transferred over to your exchange on 17th June. By the way, I have been waiting for 2 hours on my BTC. I understand that you are probably operating a fractional reserve BTC exchange and you have to be careful to monitor in/out BTC traffic, but it is only 2.65 fucking BTC! Give me my phucking 2.65 BTC back you fucking crook.

http://i61.tinypic.com/2u7ocqv.png






And a whole pile of little candies stolen from little kiddies soon adds up to a sugar mountain.

You are pulling this shit on an everyday basis.

You haven't explained anything because the explanation is that your exchange front runs the Ask wall buying up all the coins required to meet stop loss orders, and then sells those coins to stop loss orders at highest possible price before Ask wall orders recommence. That is front running and a form of insider trading. You try to brush this off as 'we have better things to do than steal candies from little kids', but this routine stop loss farming practice of yours will amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of a year, especially when combined with probable insider trader knowledge of knowing exactly how wildly deep or high spot price on your exchange is going to over/undershoot Bitstamp thanks to stops being triggered/farmed.

You have no reasonable explanation for your exchanges activity that fits what I have witnessed. You are a thief.

What I'm just saying is that I'll be glad to prove him wrong, but I want him to pay for his completely idiotic allegations.
What you are doing here is confusing absence of evidence with evidence of absence.
I can prove the fairness of every single transaction on Bitfinex, but I just need to reward the 2 parties that will then come and witness the fact that the trade wasn't a fake trade.
Nobody does anything for nothing and MatTheTwat has to learn his lesson.
He has a concrete chance of making 100 BTC.
If he's right ( and he's not).

Spitting hot air out of your mouth is easy, a little bit more difficult is to place your bet and lose your coins in case you are proven wrong.

Don't you agree with me?

Giancarlo

LOL, I didn't know exchange owners browse this mainly trollish speculation forum.   :D

Giancarlo,

Can you get a willy bot like Karpeles already and take us to 10,000?  ;D

Your bitcoins are on the way.
I have a reasonable explanation and offer you the possibility of making 100 btc in case I will be proven wrong.
But in case you are just a douchebag full of hot air I want you to pay 10 btc, so that your ass will burn for while ( unfortunately I have no time to come and beat the shit out of your retarded brains ).

From now on please stay away, you've got plenty of trading platforms to choose from, so don't waste our time anymore with your stupid childish theories.

See you next life.

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

Currently working on it....
:-P

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

Awesome.  ;D

Seriously. Stop licking this cunts ringpiece. U are making me sick.



I would suggest that you have already shamed yourself by revealing a customers balance.

I would suggest that I am not alone in my deep mistrust of Bitfinex as a trading platform.

I would suggest that you really need to provide a good explanation of why my stop loss which was set at just above $600, wasn't executed until $608 as part of that large 319 BTC order. Was it just my bad luck that my paltry 6 BTC stop loss order went right to the very back of the queue as a raft of stop loss orders triggered at the obvious stop loss trigger point, taking out the raft of Ask orders that stood in between $600 - $608? Whilst you are at it, have you any good theories on why that little short-lived break out rally seemed to consist largely of stop loss orders? Word on da street is that it was a stop farming rally and those of us with more suspicious minds might think that those in the best position to trigger a stop loss farming rally would be those who know where the stop losses are set.

You are one dodgy mother fucker Giancarlo, and everyone knows it. You will take your place in the Bitcoin hall of fame alongside Karpeles and co soon enough. Of that I am sure.

Actually, I respectfully disagree.  Unfortunately in the current state of the Bitcoin world, and in light of the Mt. Gox implosion and other numerous incidents where exchanges either went under due to incompetence or their operators closed up and ran off with the coins, the onus of responsibility of proving an exchange "being on the level" resides with the exchange operators.  It's called transparency, and it is required to earn the public's trust.

You guys had no problem with having an independent audit done back in April to prove your solvency.  You didn't first demand a bet to be made with someone before proving it.  I don't see how this situation is any different.  And why do you "need to reward the 2 parties that will then come and witness the fact that the trade wasn't a fake trade"?

You should first find reliable source for your data. In a matter of 20 seconds there were around 80 sale orders executed from $600 to $608 for all prices, not just $600 and $608 like you posted. Totaly wrong. Why your stop loss was executed at $608 and not $602? There was large market order above your price and when it was finished and all other stop loss orders before you executed, it was your turn to eat the asks at $608.

The only lesson gambling could ever teach you is to not gamble.

For the record, for the majority who have skim read through this thread. I do believe that Bitfinex buff their volume with fake trades, but that is not my beef here. The whole 'Fake Trade' 10 BTC 10/1 ratio challenge was Giancarlo trying to obscure the issue. This is something that a liar does when his nefarious activities have been revealed. He instantly tries to deflect the nature of the accusation into a form which he can disprove.

But I am not saying that there were any fake orders on that short squeeze break out. I am saying that the exchange bot front ran the Ask wall buying up all the BTC required by a big pile of Stop Loss orders, and then sold those coins to the Stop Orders at the highest possible price that is beneath the next valid Ask order. And if the process is much more refined than that, then I am saying that Bitfinex front run in the farming of stop loss orders on their own exchanges.

Doesn't matter if you are right.  Saying things like this makes you and your business look bad.

Perhaps bitcoinwisdom isn't the most reliable ticker for accuracy of information. But my accusation stands. Bitfinex front run and commit insider trading. No doubt the process is much more convoluted and better concealed than my eyes can detect. After all, these guys have bots with access to all the key information on trader's intentions. But I know when I have been had. I knew it before but like a fool went back for more, albeit with just an experimental amount of BTC.

Look back at the whole debacle surrounding MtGox and how often Karpeles had apparently proven that all was well, that Gox was solvent, that the banks really had placed restrictions on Gox but all the money was there, etc.....nothing but bamboozlement. Bullshit baffling brains.

Transparency doesn't mean to spend time in justifying ourselves against allegations that don't make sense.
MatTheTwat is blaming Bitfinex because his stop order wasn't executed at the price he selected.
Now even a 5 years old retard knows that a stop loss order is executed at the best price available in that given time.
It is not our fault if other ask orders were pulled when the price started to go up.
This is normal as several bots are programmed in such a way, i.e. withdraw orders when the price spikes up.
To blame this on the platform, accusing people to deliberately steal 30 usd is not only a symptom of douchebagness, but also of the fact that his IQ is smaller than his shoe size.
I can trace the guys that had the ask orders placed and pulled them off when the price started to raise.
They can come on this thread and witness that nothing is wrong with this particular case.
But as I said nobody does nothing for free and I want the Twat to be exposed to his own stupidity.
He has a good opportunity to make a lot of coins if he's right ( he's not).
But kids like him never make facts follow their words, they are just a whisper in the wind.

Have a good day everybody, I'm off for a run

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team  

MatTheTwat is clearly making up things and deliberately cutting pieces to prove his own theory.
That's why I asked him to place a bet on it.
But you were faster than me in exposing his scam (80 orders were deliberately deleted to prove he's right).

Good job mate!

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

I find only you arguing about bfx scamming. On the other side many of users were talking about gox. Yes, there are bot manipulators on bfx orderbook, like there was also on other exchanges, but I haven't spoted any scamming. Use this kind of large orders to your advantage instead of being hurt by it.

Incredible.

You are actually starting to sound like a naughty schoolboy caught in the act trying his darnest to bluff his way out of it. 'Exposing my scam'? Am I trying to swindle money or BTC out of someone here?

Let's keep it simple.

My stop loss order was set to $600.11 for a mere 6 BTC.

There were many Ask orders in the wall between $600 and $608. Hundreds of BTC infact.

My stop order however was triggered at $608.13, which was the very uppermost limit of that 319 BTC chunk.

Was I simply supremely unlucky in my stop loss getting punted to the very back of the queue despite it being placed a ball hair above a large 250 BTC Ask wall, with plenty market depth above it right up until the split second when the $600 threshold was broke? Is that what you are saying happened? If so then I would suggest it happens a lot on your exchange! Hence why the Bitfinex charts are characterised by all these wild price spikes and dips when compared with Bitstamp price action?

Pesky large market orders that come in out of the blue milliseconds before a raft of Stop Orders are due to be hit! Bah Humbug!

I am with MatTheCat on this. Bitfinex and giancarlo sound like typical scammers, blaming the customers and calling ugly names to their own clients. MTC's hot-headed, for sure but it's the hot-heads who tend to first reveal the true nature of btc exchanges, remember mtgox? I will no longer trust bfx and would advise anyone who trades there to be extra careful, remember mtgox? BFX = MTGOX or it's on its way to becoming.

Do not play with sharks and whales, they will eat you. :-)

did somebody say that bitcointalk got boring ?   :D

great sports...

Does anyone have an actual historical ticker source for Bitfinex to look at? We can easily find out whether or not there were trades at 602 etc. on the way to 608.

I'm looking at the 1 minute chart from BitcoinWisdom, and the candle ranges from 599.4 to 608.13 with a volume of 577 BTC, and my guess would be it's simply a large market order that went off. Then, this market order could have triggered stops set below your 600, and indeed bots could have withdrawn within this minute to decrease liquidity further. If this happened to me, I wouldn't have been suspicious. Not to say that nothing here is wrong, but I just wouldn't suspect any foul play here.

This is just the nature of the illiquidity of the Bitcoin market. Bitfinex is only special in that it allows stops in the first place. It was the same deal with Bitcoinica back in 2011, your stops would always get bad fills.

Ok guys, enough bullshit.

We now have regularly the most volume on BTCUSD, we are earning a lot in fees (just do the math yourself), plus swap fees. We do not front run 6 btc orders, nor any orders for that matters, just to grab a few dollars more. My policy since I started Bitfinex has always been to allow users to make the best out of their money, because the more profit you earn the more likely you are to stick with us. I want to believe that this is because of this policy that we are where we are now.

Now for all wannabe traders out there, there is something that you should always know about: slippage. If someone makes a 300+ BTC market order like yesterday, it will spike the price, and if your stop is triggered at the time, you will get a worse price than expected. There is no manipulation, no tricks, just normal market functioning.

This happens on every markets and even more so on thin market like bitcoin.

Now if you don't believe this, just stop using Bitfinex and go on other exchanges where slippage doesn't exist.

Have a good day
Raphael

I lifted this manually from bitcoinwisdom at the time:

02:00:58 602.29      0.1
02:00:56 600.3        1.00626
02:00:55 608.13      319.168
02:00:24 600          255.374
02:00:17 599.91      0.01

A similar thing followed with a 250 BTC trade spiking price from 607 - 615, and then right back down again.

So we had the 250 BTC wall eaten at just under 600. Then the lionshare of the rest of the volume that took Bitfinex up to 615 seems to be 'large market orders', no doubt made milliseconds before a big bunch of Stop Loss Orders were triggered. Which means that the whole Bitfinex spike (started on Huobi) consisted of a combination of Stop Loss orders being triggered and also large market orders jumping in just seconds before the stops could execute? What over exuberant whales are making these inexplicable large market orders right at the top of a classic short squeezing sucker's rally I wonder? Whales that know fuck all about TA for sure anyhow.

But thanks to the nice Bitfinex team (who think it is OK to reveal customers balances) for clearing that one up. Nothing to see here folks. No insider stop loss farming nor any other nefarious deeds going down here. Kindly move along now!

I wouldn't trust BitcoinWisdom's ticker, I recall seeing glitches there before. It would be easy enough to prove/disprove this with another source. I'll try and see if I can get a ticker chart elsewhere.

BTW, If there's one mishap that Bitfinex are certain to have made, I agree it is revealing your balance. That's just unacceptable, even if you did do them injustice calling them scammers.

I have already acknowledged that Bitcoinwisdom's ticker isn't the most fantastic and any little racket involving Stop Order farming that is being run by Bitfinex is not likely to be as obvious as the Bitcoinwisdom ticker makes it look. Yet that is far from being the first time that my stop loss order was punted away up the Ask wall due to some 'market order' swooping in with millisecond timing and buying up all the Bitcoins directly above my head. And then there is the whole question of what inspired the rally (against the grain of all the indicators). Whales farming for stop loss orders? If so, might there be a chance that these whales are friends of crook exchanges such as Bitfinex, Huobi, etc?

Like the naive poker player that falls foul to some elaborate scam pulled by a gang of card sharks, perhaps I can't put my finger on exactly how they are doing it but I certainly know when I have been had.

(Any Bitfinex insiders would have bots running to mathematical forumulae with access to trader data and a few seconds lead on exchange action over normal traders),


Would that be because YOU are the guys that run the liar wall operations or would these guys be friends of the exchange and therefore easy for you contact and cajole into coming on here with some 'explanations'? Do you give your friends special exchange privileges? Stop Order data? Front Running access to exchange action? Nowt wrong with that is there? It is only human nature that we treat our friends favourably isn't it not?

For those that want to data-mine, BitcoinCharts keeps a copy of the tradehistory in its API. I don't know how accurate it is, but have at it:

http://api.bitcoincharts.com/v1/trades.csv?symbol=bitfinexUSD&start=1403402400
(these are the trades starting at 02:00 UTC last night)

_______________________________________________________________________________ __________________

What kind of professional, serious business talks to its customers in this manner and revels account balances?
They are well known for participating in bump and dumps and have fake volume.
If you have dealings with this retards you deserve to get goxxed.
Having lost a total of 112 btc on two exchanges (not gox) i certainly would not touch Bitfinix with a ten foot pole.

This thread made my day; Matthecat's a fucking idiot.

I don't see any proof here, all I see are the rants and raves of a lunatic.  Don't believe me? Check out dear MTC's post history and judge for yourself.

Rarely are topic threads this entertaining  ::)
I've been on bitfinex for a few years
and consistently this forum gives them
a shit time. Way too much historical
baggage IMHO.

Those entrusted with fiduciary responsibility have greater expectations of professionalism than anonymous internet forum posters.  The childish behavior of those who operate (own?) Bifinex, including the colorful language referring to a customer and the public disclosure of his account balance without permission, are very troubling.  Nothing Mat has done, or could ever do, would make these actions acceptable.

Bitfinex has a choice at this point.  They can either issue a formal apology and somehow make amends to Mat for the breach of fiduciary responsibility, or they can choose not to do so and lose all credibility.  Account balance disclosure is a serious breach of fiduciary responsibility; one that usually comes with legal ramifications.  Additionally, the one breach you see may point to countless others you do not.  Bitfinex should act now to restore confidence.

A few years?

I thought that Bitfinex has only been around for less than 2 years?




If they chose to do anything along those lines they would be doing for other peoples benefit (most of all, their own) cos I aint interested in any insincere apologies when what they really want to do is reach through internet and strangle me cos they know that I am onto something and seeing me shout it about a public forum (I first learned of Bitfinex through this site myself) bothers them somewhat. Even though they know 'I aint got no solid proof', they know that I know and that a lot of other people know, that they are at the capers big style.

No, I don't want no apology. I am quite happy with the way things are with my new sig links (see below), especially the link to GianCarlo's post, a man who is routinely dealing with highly confidential personal ID documents such as bank account, passport details, where he was perfectly happy to broadcast my account balance at the drop of a hat.

Say Giancarlo, I have a m8, Honest Abdul, but his name isn't important! He is interested in buying bank account details combined with addresses and photo IDs! I don't know what use he has for that sort of information likes, but perhaps you two could strike up a deal since you don't seem to be that bothered with spilling confidential info?

Doppelpost.

Bad precedent to allow this sort of thing just because "this is Bitcoin." It harms Bitcoin's image.  Fiduciary responsibility for Bitcoin should be treated just as seriously as fiduciary responsibility for U.S. dollars.

I have noticed trades out of chronological order  in the bitcoinwisdom trade log for Bitstamp. Bitcoinwisdom 's owner explained that it is not his bug, those glitches are in the data returned by Bitstamp's chart API. I understood that it has to do with clock skew between the Bitstamp machines that process trades via trading API and manual trades.  I did not detect any such glitches on several Huobi log samples that I collected.  I have not checked Bitfinex logs.

BTC is dead if this continues. Why the hell are BTCers stealing from each other? Are those stealing true BTC fans? If they are, they need to rethink their short-term strategy. It will go no where long term.

If everyone must *assume* crap like this is going on, then how could a single exchange take place? Next time you try to buy a coffee from your local BTC coffee house, what's to keep them from taking your BTC and not giving you a coffee? In the end, we all must have trust.

If the coffee house refuses to give you the coffee, you can call the cops etc..  That is what keeps the frequency of coffee scams to a fairly tolerable low level in real life.  Exchange owners have no such deterrent.  They can do, without risk of punishment, everything that lawyers lawmakers and regulators have found necessary to prohibit to stock exchange owners, over the last 100 years.  Why should't they do it?

EDIT: wrong word

The invisible hand of the free market™




not

Hey, now that I know for sure that Bitfinex cheats it's customers by trading with insider knowledge and front running market orders ahead of a big bunch of stop losses etc, instead of just strongly suspecting that they do it, that will be the last time I transfer a 20 BTC pile or whatever over to that rat hole. Isn't that the invisible hand of the free market™ at work?  ::)

Well you are still complaining, so no it probably didn't work.

And such, do you have the impression that bitfinex is losing customers at large? I don't.
So even if you were smart enough to gtfo that does not say others do.

Bitcoins psychopathic captains of industry know their flock must maintain the illusion of libertarianism at work at all costs and they have become very efficient at exploiting it.

I was only kidding.

I shall never trade on Bitfinex again, but Bitfinex will grow and grow.  I have even gotten into discussions with people on other sites where they more or less acknowledge that insider jiggery pokery is to be expected on an unregulated exchange and accept these things as simply being part of the game. It's gambling, one of the most addictive activities known to man and Bitfinex offer all the means and tools combined with the volume to make that gambling game several times sexier than it is on a straightforward exchange such as Stamp with its very limited trading options. Of course people are going to go for it even when they basically know beforehand that the exchange is dodgy as fuck.

Look at MtGox. Even after they admitted they were insolvent by suspending even BTC withdrawals, there were plenty on this forum who piled funds onto Gox to bag themselves some Goxcoin in the chance that they just might be getting cut-price Bitcoins. It would take a huge scandal coming to light to drive people away from Bitfinex in numbers which is something that I certainly couldn't write off transpiring over the course of time, but for now, I would suggest plenty more upside for BFX to come.

Front-running is a serious offense, illegal and prosecuted (in regulated markets) as it gives the broker/dealer the upper hand- you simply cannot win when forces of this kind are put to work. I've read through most of this thread today, except for the last page, so I will withdraw from further comments, but if those allegations are proven right, there shouldn't be a single person dealing with Bitfinex. On the other hand, if using comparison to Forex/stock market exchanges, I understand the practices of brokers who are Market Makers (versus ECN), and if you decide to deal with them you need to accept their terms and conditions (most of those Market Makers do not guarantee your SL to be respected) and the fact that their price quotes may be different than price quotes of other brokers (MM and ECN). In other words, in extreme situations where price action is very quick there may be some problems with execution, to speak generally. This is a broad topic, widely discussed, along with some accusations of manipulation (which came to be true). Just think of it, price goes wild, and you have some orders standing. For them to get filled, you need a counterparty. If there is none, you as a broker have two options: 1) fill those orders yourself and be at a loss or 2) manipulate... Which one would you choose? It depends what kind of broker are you :) In cryptocurrency trading it looks like there are no "what kind of broker am I", there seems to be only one kind of brokers. But trust me, even if they tried to do their job as honestly as everyone would like them to, there are numerous opportunities for a mishap.

I am really curious to see how this debate ends up.

Heard that Bitfinex is located in Hongkong, GBL run away last year was in Hongkong. and more, 796, mycoin, ANX, these swindlers exchanges in Hongkong, Hongkong is not reliable...

Bitfinix has a virtual office in Hong Kong thats the address: Room 1601, 16th Floor, The Sun's Group Centre, 200 Gloucester Rd, Hong Kong it a Proxy Management Consultants firm. To my knowledge it is run from some garage somewhere in France and its doggy as fuck.
Looking at the number of exchanges which have run away with customers funds over the years not only the once from Hong Kong listed above, its a given that you gona to get goxxed with this douchebags, its only a matter of time.


Would you sent this guys your passport details and all other info to get fully cert. ?

It is not easy to spot a scammer, because the first requirement for that "profession" is to sound and look respectable to the eyes of the intended victims, whether they be old pensioners or computer nerds.

One way to protect against scammers is to know their identity and check their background for prior scams, lawsuits, failed enterprises, etc.  If the guy wants to remain anonymous, subtract 500 points. 

Another way is to make sure that the guy can go to jail if he scams you.  If the contracts has some "small" holes (like "if X does not work out, we will do as we see fit" or "we promise to try" etc.), assume that the guy will go through them. If the contract leaves some room for interpretation, assume that he will interpret it in the way that maximizes his profit, not yours. If the company is registered in a country where you cannot prosecute them, subtract 500 points. If the company is not regulated, subtract another 500 points.  If it is not audited by professional auditor, or delays due audits, subtract another 500 points. and so on.

There are other symptoms that a scam is in progress, and we have seen them all in MtGOX, months before if finally closed.  The guy starts avoiding customers, gives evasive reassurances that all is well, promises that full answers to their questions will be provided "soon", gives excuses that cannot be verified, throws the blame on others and presents himself as victim, gets angry at those who insist on asking... But by this stage the scam is usually done...

In Gox's case, I don't think Karpeles' intention was to simply steal everyone's money and let Gox go up in smoke in the public eye. I think his intention was to use his power to ramp and crash the Bitcoin market. He could profit massively from the ramps, and then cover his fractional reserve activities on the crashes....but somehow things got out from under his control.....he could have been attacked by hackers like has been suggested or maybe he just started to lose the ability to totally boss the market. Or maybe, just maybe, he was just a self-destructive weirdo who started out on course of dodgy fake volume market ramping behaviour to enrich himself, but with no feasible get-out plan?

However, I also remember Gox getting all manner of 'seals of approvals' or pseudo audits done when their integrity came under question. I never believed in any of it, but plenty did. Indeed, even during the Goxcoin period, there were people on this forum swearing blind that everything would come good in the end, etc etc.

Perhaps if things went a bit more to Karpeles plan, Gox would still be in operation today, and Karpeles and his chums, Markus and Willy, would be happily ramping and crashing Bitcoin around like crazy, getting even fatter on the proceeds of doing so and nobody would be none the wiser. Operating an unregulated exchange is a permanent cash cow for any unscrupulous individuals with the will, the knowhow, and the means to do so. Providing the insider foul play is kept within limits, and the exchange insiders don't get ambitions which are above their stations and more than they can handle, then an exchange that routinely cheats its customers can be kept running for decades or for however long the asset it is trading remains relevant and everyone can still get funds credited to their accounts returned to them at the end of the day....unless of course the tools which the exchange operators use to front run and/or generate fake volume gets into the 'wrong' hands. I am thinking specifically of the mysterious $100 flash crashes that occurred both on BTC-e and Bitfinex back in Feb 2014, where spot price crashed down to $100 on relatively very low volume, yet many many people who had buy-ins at tranches all the way down to $100 complained that their buy-ins were not triggered. Perhaps one way in which this could happen would be if some accounts had a higher/lower priority of access, or indeed were privy to a whole different level of access to the market action than others. In the 12Hr period that covered the $100 flash crash, BFX volume was around 24K BTC. High, but nothing spectacular considering the $600 price flash crash (Bitstamp registered 40K of volume on their corresponding panic sell off down to just $540 during the same 12Hr volume bar). It just doesn't make sense to me that this would be triggered by normal traders panicking or some whale thumbing in an extra 0 on an intended 800 BTC market sell (if it was, then the same whale made the same mistake on BTC-e as well). For me, this had to be some kind of attack, whereby the hackers got their hands on the programs that the exchange insiders use to front run, paint the tape, fake volume etc. Perhaps the fake volume responsible for crashing market is the reason why many real traders never got their limit orders filled although from what I read plenty leverage long traders did get wiped out or have their Stop Loss orders filled, which results in real trade volume occurring, which along with some real traders panic selling real volume into the flash crash, means that some real traders actually did get their limit orders filled?

A very very strange one that happened on two exchanges triggering panic sells on the other exchanges which only got down a mere fraction of BTC-e and BFX, which clearly had to be under some hackers control. I also seem to remember just a week or so before this crashes occurred, some forum poster called 'BitcoinSteve' coming on here and warning that the end of Bitcoin was nigh, but wanting BTC donations for access to his insider info.

I agree that the collapse of MtGOX must have been due to a combination of unethical insider trading/manipulation and bad luck.  I disagree on the details, however. I don't think that Mark had the power to create the rally; as you must know already, I believe the rally was real, due to the opening of the Chinese market, and "Markus"/"Willy"  was merely doing arbitrage with China, possibly with non-existent money.  And the crash was due to the Chinese Government's decree.  But I wonder whether we will know the truth some day.

Indeed. I am quite convinced that there were several other people, besides Mark and Gonzague, who knew what was going on inside MtGOX, and profited from it.

Just as there were many people on this forum swearing that all was fine with Neo & Bee, weeks after Danny Brewster had disappeared with all the money that was left.  Some even went as far as claiming that they had flown from Greece to Cyprus, visited the offices, and saw that everybody was still there working as usual.

Hey, what is wrong with telling a few lies in order to convince other people to buy, while I sell?  What is anonymity good for, if not for that?

So, instead admitting that Finex API have some flaws/bugs and not sending data to btwisdom correctly (as this seems the only reason for that strange behavior) AND providing proper data, Finex just coming up with that "hatter gonna hate" line?

And what about that "we will reward these 10btc to the traders which actually did these trades" - wtf is that? Why should you reward someone like this? I guess it was just a line to say that you don't need these money personally, but why to spend it to these 3rd parties? (I know these 10btc newer existed anyways, but still).

People posting there claiming that MTC is crazy and so on - while it could be fun to blame him, it explain nothing to the original topic.  

I also find surprising that there was no price data for the price between 600-608.
Even if there a bull which put a big 300BTC+ buy order at price 599 and lets say some sellers pulled their orders at 600-608 range, I still find it hardly believing that all 600-608 sell orders were pulled off.

The only logical explanation is that prices getting grouped before posting, but then it should be changed, for more transparency. And what are the rules of such grouping?

Someone posted that the data they have shows a whole raft of orders being executed from $600 right through to $608.13. But that doesn't change the fact that my stop loss was just a shade above $600, yet never got triggered until the very top spike of those front-run and repackaged grouped together 319 BTC orders. that took price to $608.13, the exact price where my stop orders were triggered, taking me right away from break even territory and right into the red. It was only a small trade. It would only ever have been a small trade as my trust for Bitfinex evaporated quite some time ago. This is far from being the first time I have seen this sort of shit on this exchange.

Also, now that Bitcoin has predictably started to correct, I can't help thinking how convenient it is that BFX have flushed out a few short-sellers, who BFX have probably loaned out Bitcoin to, that they may not even have. It was obvious that Bitcoin was going to correct a bit from $600, so who are those 'whales' with the front running privileges super fast internet connections who were piling into Bitcoin with the large market orders which bought out the Ask walls and pushed Short Stop Loss Orders up to top of market spikes, right at the top of an obvious 'suckers rally'? It is all fucking bullshit. It was no 'sucker's rally'. That rally was about squeezing out shorts. BFX are hookey as fuck. They know where the shorts have accumulated. They know how many Stop Loss Orders have been set. They have the means and the knowhow to farm those stops. They try to brush these accusations off with "Hurr, Durr, You Cant Prove Nothing, Hurrr, wanna 10 BTC bet, Durrr" "Hey, we have bigger fish to fry than steal sweets from little kiddies". They claim that they already earn millions in exchange fees and shit, so why would they feel the need to misbehave in these ways! Erm, because from doing so, Bitfinex just made over 8* the profit from my trade than an honest exchange would have from exchange fees alone, not to mention the fact that had they not farmed my Short Stop Loss, and a good handful of other trader's Short Stop Losses, we would all still be short as the market finally recedes proper, and perhaps Bitfinex are to some extent offering Naked Short Positions which they can't really afford to see too many of succeed? The exact same games are also played on leveraged longs, naturally. I think Bitfinex are thieving robbing cunts who are in the position of operating their own unregulated exchange with zero oversight, and are taking the liberty to multiply their own earnings by a factor of 10, 20, or perhaps even more.

My possible explanation would be like this:

buys below market price executes on priority over stop losses (which is quite logical)

I.e. if there is sell order 30BTC at 600 and sell order 20BTC at 602 and sell orer 10BTC and 608

your stop loss for short 6BTC position placed at 601

Now someone executes buy @599 for 52BTC

he got filled on priority as 30@600+20@602 +2@608
then stop losses start being filled

say there is only one stop loss and it's yours, then you will get 6@608

and there will be 2BTC sell order left @ 608


I don't know if this correct. But that could possibly explain why your stop took place so high.
However as long as there is no price log there, it looks really strange.

Perhaps they group prices in batches, but what are the principles for this grouping?
If such grouping exists, Finex should remove it to increase transparency for their customers.

Such an explanation would make sense. But I would add to that explanation, that the whale market buyer(s):

a) Has front running access
b) Knows where the bulk of the Stops are
c) Probably then sells to the Stops at a mark-up
and
d) Is probably the exchange itself

I was watching the trades happening, with palm over face with resigned sigh as I watched the obvious rally engineered to take out short traders but I have had one very bad experience trading with leverage after I decided not to trade with Stops, figuring that doing so was just helping the exchange to rip me off. So this time I kept my short in place, knowing it would be triggered by the engineered rally. I indeed made a post on 'Wall Observer' Thread stating that I believed that this was all that the 'break out' would transpire to be. So when my stop loss got punted away up the Ask wall, despite their being literally hundreds of BTC in the wall between 600-608 just a millisecond beforehand, I wasn't all like "Oh, Shock horror! How could this have possibly happened to me!?" I was more like, "yep, typical Bitfinex". I was angry, but not surprised in the slightest.

So, in other words, Bitfinex wasn't caught "red handed" at all, and the "proof" in the OP is no longer operative. Check.

Windbags like you are the reason no one listens when actual shit goes down.

The fact that my Stop Order was punted from $600.11 when there were dozens and actually hundreds of BTC in the ask wall between my Stop Order and the $608 price tag I got hit with in the end, right at the very peak of the grouped together 319 trade, is very very suspicious. The explanation is that apparently there were Ask walls getting pulled and market orders all going in right in the split second between my Stop (and no doubt countless other trader's Stops) getting triggered and my Stop being executed. This might all well be the case, but I would suggest that it is the exchange itself who is responsible for such 'split second' interventions. It isn't like this is the first time this happened on BFX. They argue that they have better things to do than steal sweets from kiddies, but I would dispute that when they are stealing lots of sweets from dozens of kiddies on a daily basis, that they increase their profit margins several fold. They have the market information and front running capabilities to wring a bit more USD out of it's customers, and from I have seen, that is exactly what they do.

I can't prove it, but I know that this exchange is shady as fuck.

So your argument at this point seems to be 'They can do it, so they are doing it'.

Giancarlo has behaved abominably and his 10BTC reward for people involved in the trades between600 and 608 is ridiculous as well - I don't think he's thought clearly about incentives - hell I'd swear black and blue I was a party to that transaction, in exchange for 5 BTC!

Giancarlo, as annoying as MatTheCat is I think you owe it to your other customers to apologize for revealing his balance, and promise never to do that to any of your other customers. That is was a relatively small amount is not relevant, there are no circumstances in which it is OK to reveal, and you are coming across like a 15 year old boy even more than Mat does.

FWIW my stops have always executed well past their trigger points, this may simply be due to the design of BFX's stop triggering system and how it decides to queue trades upon trigger. Clippage should be expected, and I find it surprising how butthurt you are about an $8 difference, I would expect this when the market moves quickly, which as you should know, is a frequent occurrence in BTC.

It is one thing when the market is on the move and totally devouring the Ask walls and stops are triggered $5-$10 bucks beyond the point at which they were set, but quite another when the only logical purpose of the counter trend rally which springs out of low volume bearish conditions, is to trigger stop losses, which are then punted right to the back of the queue of 'other' bids. When the latter happens, and it happens on BFX a lot, it kind of seems a little bit to me like Stop Loss farming.

Question is, are the Stop Farmers operating with inside knowledge and front running access to trade action? I would suggest that they most probably are as this is the only way in which Stop Loss orders could guarantee that they are the primary beneficiaries of their operations. And actually I don't suggest it, I know it.

Wow.  Complete unprofessionalism by Bitfinex rep here.
Revealing customer balances and name-calling by
what is supposed to be a major exchange?  Given what
I'm seeing here,  I wouldn't trust these guys to exchange tulip bulbs.

That said, I think trying totrade Bitcoins like stocks or forex
is asking for trouble.  Of course there is going to
be slippage.  its too volatile to be using
stop orders imo. 

@MatTheCat

Hi Mat, it happened that i read some of the posts in this thread and i think i can clear one of your point about the triggering of stop losses 'at the worst price after the triggering trade' that you experienced.

Suppose that your stop buy order was at 601$. This mean that when the last trade execute above that price your stop is executed.
Now, MrStopHunter (whoever he may be) place a market buy order, consuming all liquidity up to, let's say, 610$.
Every trade is 'atomic', meaning that no other trades can happen while another trade is happening (this is pretty basic stuff).
So, only after MrStopHunter order is executed your stop order is executed too (potentially with many others). This explain this particular behavior you noticed.

But what if, 'MrStopHunter' is also 'MrBitfinex', or at least a very good friend of MrBitfinex's?

It is corrupt, but they don't have anyone watching what they are doing on thier own unregulated exchange, so it is also a very easy way to increase the income stream from the exchange.

That is what I am getting at.

After the blatantly crooked events on Bitfinex last night, I think this thread is worth a bump.....although this time, it was a Long Squeeze of the highest magnitude. Note that Finex always squeeze in the opposite direction of which the market wants to go (for obvious reasons).


FUCK YOU BITFINEX YOU FUCKING THEIVING CROOKED BASTARDS!

Some People Never Learn (Me)

Thought I would scalp trade the obvious move  Top on Finex.....

But the top turned out to me $407.33. Precisely where my 6 BTC Short Stop Order was triggered.

6 FKN BTC...and they came after it!

http://oi67.tinypic.com/2uorokm.jpg

around 400 BTC of so called 'volume' had to be cleared to get to my stop and 'legitimately' trigger it.....makes me wonder how much of that volume is actually real, and how much is nothing more than bucket shop padding.

Fucking Theiving Bucket Shop Rat Bastards.

Im assuming working it was referred to the bot?