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Economy => Trading Discussion => Topic started by: Mahkul on May 01, 2011, 02:52:56 PM



Title: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD? (USD added)
Post by: Mahkul on May 01, 2011, 02:52:56 PM
We are considering adding support for USD to BitMarket.eu (https://bitmaket.eu). Does anyone know how expensive it is to transfer USD onto an European account? Would this help the US users in any way or should we not bother? Thanks for any advice/suggestion.

EDIT: We don't want to open a bank account in the USA, but we can open an European one accepting USD.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: BioMike on May 01, 2011, 02:58:10 PM
Question is if US people are going to use it. MtGox also accepts USD bank transfers, so you will have to compete with them (and MtGox being US based they have an advantage in that respect).


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: Mahkul on May 01, 2011, 03:17:47 PM
I think one of the biggest advantages would be that we would be operating under EU laws, not US laws. So even if the USA government decides to try and shut down our exchange they won't be able to do anything.

Actually, I don't undetstand why bitcoin-central never actually took off on a larger scale? The trades there are liquid and they accept deposits. Any idea?


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: ribuck on May 01, 2011, 07:05:30 PM
I don't undetstand why bitcoin-central never actually took off on a larger scale?
The site asks for a PGP-encrypted email before you deposit Euros. That rules out 90% of potential customers.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: S3052 on May 01, 2011, 07:09:01 PM
Question is if US people are going to use it. MtGox also accepts USD bank transfers, so you will have to compete with them (and MtGox being US based they have an advantage in that respect).

Mt Gox is based in Japan now since owner changed.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: bitdragon on May 01, 2011, 07:20:02 PM
The USD currency can be used among buyers and sellers in US without bitmarket serving as an escrow?
Bitmarket acting as an escrow should probably focus on one currency first, the Euro.
Regardless of the currency being submitted, funds arriving in the account can all be turned into Euros.

I don't see the advantage of having a separate USD account for now at least,


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: BioMike on May 01, 2011, 07:38:09 PM
I don't undetstand why bitcoin-central never actually took off on a larger scale?
The site asks for a PGP-encrypted email before you deposit Euros. That rules out 90% of potential customers.

The PGP wasn't IMHO not really a big problem (never knew that that was required). The site owner told me he didn't like running it. In the end it took weeks to get reply from him.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: ribuck on May 01, 2011, 07:45:08 PM
The PGP wasn't IMHO not really a big problem (never knew that that was required). The site owner told me he didn't like running it. In the end it took weeks to get reply from him.
I have also transacted without using PGP, but the "Deposit Funds" page says that PGP is required and that will frighten away many potential users.

It's a pity he's not very interested in the service, because he has coded it up nicely.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: Ulysses on May 01, 2011, 07:49:23 PM
Of course you should, more competition is good.

BTW - i'd like to see liberty reserve too.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: BioMike on May 01, 2011, 08:14:50 PM
It's a pity he's not very interested in the service, because he has coded it up nicely.

Agree... if I only had a bit more time and knew how to code ruby I would have offered to buy the service over from him. And the ruby coding wouldn't even be such big problem. Time, time, time...


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: ribuck on May 01, 2011, 09:14:56 PM
And the ruby coding wouldn't even be such big problem.
Ruby is delightful.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on May 01, 2011, 10:04:56 PM

Anytime USD is used in commerce anywhere on the globe, the US govt. can, and sometimes does take an interest. You may be under EU laws but the US has final say on how USD is used, unless it is cash of course. I would stay out of it for now if I was you ....

You could look at expanding your euro currencies, CHF is a big one not covered and used internationally, norwegian kroner and other smaller ones that are not in euro also, maybe rubles ...


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: Mahkul on May 01, 2011, 11:14:39 PM
Please take a look at this post: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6992.0 (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=6992.0) and tell me what you guys think of this idea. Thanks.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: Darth Severus on May 02, 2011, 03:48:43 AM
I plan to start a new thread tomorrow, with ideas how these BTC exchange services could become better by using other payment services. Only for now: With liqpay.com your customers would need only their debit or cc, a cellphone to be able to receive and send money. Why not paying and get paid for BTC over this? They only had to give their phonenumber to the trading partner, and their db/cc data to liqpay to withdrawal the money. If some donīt trust liqpay, they shalt get some free debitcard.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: sniper_sniperson on May 02, 2011, 11:53:12 AM
We are considering adding support for USD to BitMarket.eu (https://bitmaket.eu). Does anyone know how expensive it is to transfer USD onto an European account? Would this help the US users in any way or should we not bother? Thanks for any advice/suggestion.

EDIT: We don't want to open a bank account in the USA, but we can open an European one accepting USD.

A little off topic ...

Can you guarrantee the transactions when someone receives the BTCs and "forgot" to pay them?


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: HostFat on May 02, 2011, 11:58:00 AM
I plan to start a new thread tomorrow, with ideas how these BTC exchange services could become better by using other payment services. Only for now: With liqpay.com your customers would need only their debit or cc, a cellphone to be able to receive and send money. Why not paying and get paid for BTC over this? They only had to give their phonenumber to the trading partner, and their db/cc data to liqpay to withdrawal the money. If some donīt trust liqpay, they shalt get some free debitcard.
I think that this can be a good idea.
BitMarket should just suggest that this has some more risks, and as you said it's better to use it with a debitcard.
Users will have the choice to use it or not :)


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: Mahkul on May 02, 2011, 12:06:21 PM
We are considering adding support for USD to BitMarket.eu (https://bitmaket.eu). Does anyone know how expensive it is to transfer USD onto an European account? Would this help the US users in any way or should we not bother? Thanks for any advice/suggestion.

EDIT: We don't want to open a bank account in the USA, but we can open an European one accepting USD.

A little off topic ...

Can you guarrantee the transactions when someone receives the BTCs and "forgot" to pay them?

With the current system that we use it is not possible to receive Bitcoins without paying for them. We hold the BTC in Escrow until the buyer pays - then the seller has an option of releasing the coins from Escrow.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: sniper_sniperson on May 02, 2011, 12:33:17 PM
With the current system that we use it is not possible to receive Bitcoins without paying for them. We hold the BTC in Escrow until the buyer pays - then the seller has an option of releasing the coins from Escrow.

Well, I read about Escrow ... So must not worry about "good" guys cause I'll receive sooner or later (within a week) the money transfer.

Or I'm wrong?

Ok, a little example:

1st step - I sent the IBAN and my name
2nd step - Buyer's bank doesn't validate this information. It asks for BIC of the bank. The validation time is 3 or 4 days, which may trigger the rollback on bitmarket.eu (not sure about the timeout, it may be around 3 days)

It seems the seller cannot be able to complete the transaction or I'm still wrong?


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: SmokeTooMuch on May 02, 2011, 07:31:04 PM
BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?

Oh, I don't know ...
I can't seem to find the right words to describe why I think this is a bad idea.
Somehow I feel like the EUR trades will really get affected by that and will get fixed to the USD/BTC rate on other exchanges even more.

I somehow like having a "European only" market.


Well, we'll see what future brings.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: Mahkul on May 02, 2011, 08:52:44 PM
We are considering splitting the site in two:

- one: leaving the payment methods and arrangement to the seller and buyer the way it is now (plus the Paypal verification feature we're working on and the feedback system etc). This one would accept USD, AUD and whatever else currencies that people require since we wouldn't be involved in the money transfers in any way.
- second: accepting EUR deposits and doing trades the mtgox way in real time. This one would not accept USD - only: EUR, GBP, PLN and CHF

What do you guys think of this, does it make sense to split bitmarket like that? I don't see liquid trading together with payments taking ~3 days on the same site; the graphs would be all over the place and there would probably be some confusion, but I could be wrong.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: SmokeTooMuch on May 02, 2011, 10:07:11 PM
Both options sound fine to me, but I'm not sure whether it makes sense to split it.

Would you need to introduce fees when implementing the second option ?

Also, if all the money is held by an account of your bank we additionally have to trust your bank not to freeze the funds for whatever reason.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: Mahkul on May 02, 2011, 10:16:49 PM
Both options sound fine to me, but I'm not sure whether it makes sense to split it.

Would you need to introduce fees when implementing the second option ?

There would be fees for withdrawing EUR from us and a limit of minimum 10€ per withdrawal since the bank I am going to use charges a fee for sending a SEPA transfer (yes, Poland sucks). The reason we want to use this particular bank is that there is an API and the payments could be automated.

I don't think we would be charging anything for transfers within the exchange; even if, I don't see a fee higher than 0.5-1%. For the time being, it will remain free for sure.



Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: pjwaffle on May 02, 2011, 10:17:47 PM
You should get USD, but keep in mind that mtgox currently has a monopoly on USD exchanges/trades...


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: marcus_of_augustus on May 02, 2011, 10:23:30 PM
I'm thinking de-linking the USD part from the other makes sense in that if the USD part gets shutdown you'll still be operational with the Euro side of it. But fragmenting a business at such an early stage is not advisable.

If you can somehow keep them under the same umbrella from the customer point of view (single point of contact on web, same website, address, etc) but have them split legally so that a shutdown of one does not affect trading of the other is the ideal solution.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: Mahkul on May 02, 2011, 10:28:20 PM
Also, if all the money is held by an account of your bank we additionally have to trust your bank not to freeze the funds for whatever reason.

The funds will be fine. I have some solicitors hired to make sure everything will be a 100% legal so no one is going to freeze anything, that's why the system is not in place yet (didn't want to take any risks). BitMarket is going to become a Limited company with full address and Terms and Conditions on the site.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: Mahkul on May 02, 2011, 10:31:50 PM

I thinking de-linking the USD part from the other makes sense in that if the USD part gets shutdown you'll still be operational with the Euro side of it. But fragmenting a business at such an early stage is not advisable.

If you can somehow keep them under the same umbrella from the customer point of view (single point of contact on web, same website, address, etc) but have them split legally so that a shutdown of one does not affect trading of the other is the ideal solution.

Yeah, the USD will only be available for the Paypal option and with that - we will have nothing to do with the money transfers. I don't see how matchmaking buyers and sellers without making any profit is a crime (unless BTC are made illegal in the EU). By the way, does anyone know what has to happen for BTC to be recognized as a currency (because then I don't think we would be allowed to run such a website)?


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: pjwaffle on May 02, 2011, 10:38:11 PM

I thinking de-linking the USD part from the other makes sense in that if the USD part gets shutdown you'll still be operational with the Euro side of it. But fragmenting a business at such an early stage is not advisable.

If you can somehow keep them under the same umbrella from the customer point of view (single point of contact on web, same website, address, etc) but have them split legally so that a shutdown of one does not affect trading of the other is the ideal solution.

Yeah, the USD will only be available for the Paypal option and with that - we will have nothing to do with the money transfers. I don't see how matchmaking buyers and sellers without making any profit is a crime (unless BTC are made illegal in the EU). By the way, does anyone know what has to happen for BTC to be recognized as a currency (because then I don't think we would be allowed to run such a website)?

The bitcoin IS a currency, the only thing needed to make it legally a currency (so that it can be regulated) is some idiot...

Of course, since the bitcoin is decentralized (for the most part), you would still be able to continue the bitcoin side of things because it's tough to track and such...


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: Mahkul on May 02, 2011, 10:43:33 PM

I thinking de-linking the USD part from the other makes sense in that if the USD part gets shutdown you'll still be operational with the Euro side of it. But fragmenting a business at such an early stage is not advisable.

If you can somehow keep them under the same umbrella from the customer point of view (single point of contact on web, same website, address, etc) but have them split legally so that a shutdown of one does not affect trading of the other is the ideal solution.

Yeah, the USD will only be available for the Paypal option and with that - we will have nothing to do with the money transfers. I don't see how matchmaking buyers and sellers without making any profit is a crime (unless BTC are made illegal in the EU). By the way, does anyone know what has to happen for BTC to be recognized as a currency (because then I don't think we would be allowed to run such a website)?

The bitcoin IS a currency, the only thing needed to make it legally a currency (so that it can be regulated) is some idiot...

Of course, since the bitcoin is decentralized (for the most part), you would still be able to continue the bitcoin side of things because it's tough to track and such...

That's what I meant. So you say as long as this idiot doesn't turn up it is not a currency by the same terms as EUR, GBP?


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: bitdragon on May 02, 2011, 11:05:13 PM
It seems more resilient and decentralised to focus on p2p trades like up to now on bitmarket.

Accepting funds of unknown origin and passing it on to others adds one more bank transfer for a given amount, and that combined with different currencies used makes it a comparable to a currency exchanger IMHO.





Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: sniper_sniperson on May 03, 2011, 10:54:03 PM
With the current system that we use it is not possible to receive Bitcoins without paying for them. We hold the BTC in Escrow until the buyer pays - then the seller has an option of releasing the coins from Escrow.

Well, I read about Escrow ... So must not worry about "good" guys cause I'll receive sooner or later (within a week) the money transfer.

Or I'm wrong?

Ok, a little example:

1st step - I sent the IBAN and my name
2nd step - Buyer's bank doesn't validate this information. It asks for BIC of the bank. The validation time is 3 or 4 days, which may trigger the rollback on bitmarket.eu (not sure about the timeout, it may be around 3 days)

It seems the seller cannot be able to complete the transaction or I'm still wrong?

Can someone provide a suggestions about my questions? How the system of this market-site will refund the bitcoins/euros?


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: BioMike on May 04, 2011, 05:16:36 AM
With the current system that we use it is not possible to receive Bitcoins without paying for them. We hold the BTC in Escrow until the buyer pays - then the seller has an option of releasing the coins from Escrow.

Well, I read about Escrow ... So must not worry about "good" guys cause I'll receive sooner or later (within a week) the money transfer.

Or I'm wrong?

Ok, a little example:

1st step - I sent the IBAN and my name
2nd step - Buyer's bank doesn't validate this information. It asks for BIC of the bank. The validation time is 3 or 4 days, which may trigger the rollback on bitmarket.eu (not sure about the timeout, it may be around 3 days)

It seems the seller cannot be able to complete the transaction or I'm still wrong?

Can someone provide a suggestions about my questions? How the system of this market-site will refund the bitcoins/euros?

I've done a few transactions on bitmarket.eu now, most went fine. Just make sure that you get the info you need to do the transfer, the BIC is one of them (I think you can even lookup the BIC from the IBAN code). I just cancelled a transaction because the buyer didn't respond after about 2 weeks. The transaction wasn't rolled back at that time, I mailed the admins to do it for me.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: sniper_sniperson on May 04, 2011, 06:47:51 AM
Ok, thanks. In fact I was a little shocked when a foreign bank can't do the transfer w/o the BIC number cause IBAN accounts are "childs" of those BICs, like IP ranges.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD?
Post by: Mahkul on May 05, 2011, 09:02:11 PM
OKay, we have added an option of selecting USD as a currency. Please note that it is not recommended to select this along with International transfer payment method, since the charges could be high.

Still working on implementing the rating system for safe Paypal trading.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD? (USD added)
Post by: davout on May 05, 2011, 09:29:51 PM
Hey, just saw this thread and registered, the site looks really nice :D
Wish you lots of success!

Just a thing, you should put a time scale on the main page graph.


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD? (USD added)
Post by: Mahkul on May 05, 2011, 09:33:15 PM
Hey, just saw this thread and registered, the site looks really nice :D
Wish you lots of success!

Just a thing, you should put a time scale on the main page graph.

Gods, I haven't seen you in ages! How are you getting on man?


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD? (USD added)
Post by: davout on May 05, 2011, 09:47:44 PM
Hey, just saw this thread and registered, the site looks really nice :D
Wish you lots of success!

Just a thing, you should put a time scale on the main page graph.

Gods, I haven't seen you in ages! How are you getting on man?

Doing very well!

I have to say last few IRL months didn't leave me much more internet access (and more generally time) than : "anyone wants to withdraw money? if yes send", "is the bitcoin client dead? if yes restart" and then back to IRL...

I now officially have much more time to take care of the bitcoin central business and compete with your new fancy exchange :D

From what I just read you found a legal way to run the exchange acting as an escrow but not have real time trading the mtgox/bc way ?




Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD? (USD added)
Post by: Mahkul on May 05, 2011, 09:50:38 PM
Hey, just saw this thread and registered, the site looks really nice :D
Wish you lots of success!

Just a thing, you should put a time scale on the main page graph.

Gods, I haven't seen you in ages! How are you getting on man?

Doing very well!

I have to say last few IRL months didn't leave me much more internet access (and more generally time) than : "anyone wants to withdraw money? if yes send", "is the bitcoin client dead? if yes restart" and then back to IRL...

I now officially have much more time to take care of the bitcoin central business and compete with your new fancy exchange :D

From what I just read you found a legal way to run the exchange acting as an escrow but not have real time trading the mtgox/bc way ?

Well, by the end of May we may be switching to the "mtgox way". For now is just BTC Escrow. :/

Did you find any?


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD? (USD added)
Post by: davout on May 05, 2011, 10:02:36 PM
Well, by the end of May we may be switching to the "mtgox way". For now is just BTC Escrow. :/
Did you find any?

I have a couple of ideas which basically revolve around "we sell you bitcoin central credits for 1 EUR each, you exchange these credits online, and when you're fed up with them we buy them from you at .98 EUR", the main problems with that is :

 - VAT paid on sales (someone pays 100 EUR + 19.6% French VAT to get 100 EUR worth of credit ? --> Not going to happen)
 - If you sell 10 kEUR worth of credits you know you'll get 200 EUR profit (assuming a 2% withdrawal fee), but in the accounting books it appears as a net profit (unless you use creative accounting techniques) until you buy the credits back from the users --> 33% profit tax, not going to happen either

How are you going to manage the legal side of things, is polish law very different ?


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD? (USD added)
Post by: Mahkul on May 05, 2011, 10:19:52 PM
Well, by the end of May we may be switching to the "mtgox way". For now is just BTC Escrow. :/
Did you find any?

I have a couple of ideas which basically revolve around "we sell you bitcoin central credits for 1 EUR each, you exchange these credits online, and when you're fed up with them we buy them from you at .98 EUR", the main problems with that is :

 - VAT paid on sales (someone pays 100 EUR + 19.6% French VAT to get 100 EUR worth of credit ? --> Not going to happen)
 - If you sell 10 kEUR worth of credits you know you'll get 200 EUR profit (assuming a 2% withdrawal fee), but in the accounting books it appears as a net profit (unless you use creative accounting techniques) until you buy the credits back from the users --> 33% profit tax, not going to happen either

How are you going to manage the legal side of things, is polish law very different ?

I am going to bed now, but will write you tomorrow. Nice to see you back!


Title: Re: BitMarket.eu - should we accept USD? (USD added)
Post by: Touristtoken on February 16, 2018, 08:04:59 AM
checking this out.  it a news website , thought it was an exchange.