Bitcoin Forum

With the recent closing down of Coinpal, I've been looking into the terms and conditions of alternative payment processing sites, to see whether they would allow buying bitcoins. Some other people are probably doing the same thing, so this thread is an attempt to collect everyone's investigations into one place (or at least a place to report my own investigations).

The sites I've looked at so far:

Google Checkout

Forbids "Financial products, services and stored value" and "Discounted currencies or currency exchanges"  (reference (https://checkout.google.com/support/sell/bin/answer.py?answer=75724)).

Amazon Payments

Forbids "Cash or cash equivalent instruments - including but not limited to money orders, travelers' checks, and generally accepted stored value products." (reference (https://payments.amazon.com/sdui/sdui/helpTab/Personal-Accounts/User-Agreement-Policies/Acceptable-Use-Policy)).

AlertPay

Forbids "Using or selling any form of e-cash, web cash or other matter, tangible or not, that is redeemable by a Buyer for a product or service from a third party." (reference (https://www.alertpay.com/en/agreements.aspx#6.0 Acceptable Use and Activities Not Allowed)).

NoChex

Forbids "Currency, bullion or prepaid debit/credit cards" (reference (http://nochex.com/acceptable-use/)).

Moneybookers

Requires approval for "money exchange or remittance businesses, including but not limited to bureaux de change, currency exchanges and purchase of travel money" (reference (http://www.moneybookers.com/app/help.pl?s=terms)). I enquired about approval for bitcoin, but they told me it would not be allowed. (And even closed down the account I used to make the request!)


So as yet I've not found a payment processing site that seems like it would allow bitcoins. I'll continue to look around, and update this thread as I do.

Interesting! Does anybody know if they don't accept buying financial instruments due to their own internal rules or is there some sort of general legal issue?

It's probably related to anti-money laundering regulations in whatever jurisdiction they are based in. They just don't want the hassle more than anything I expect.

If a company allows credit card payments, they won't allow bitcoins. It's been said before, the best options are going to be cash, or e-currencies that do not allow chargebacks, but everyone keeps looking for the easier options. I'd like easier options too, but it just isn't possible.

What country?

dwolla.com works for USA only.  It mentions bitcoins in the FAQ by saying that they're not a "token" like Bitcoins.
I haven't used it yet but am considering signing up. Also I hear mtgox plans to accept Dwolla.
As I boycott PP, Dwolla looks a promising option.

Also, a computer site I shop on - mwave.com - encourages payments through a system called eBillMe.com.
I've used this: you send payment using your existing online bill pay service, and when it clears (I think it takes 2 days),
they ship your order.  Mwave offers a discount/rebate for using eBillMe instead of a CC.

In any case both these systems are unrelated to CC and thus may meet the requirements.  It's still likely
you can reverse transactions, so any site accepting USD and paying BTC, should hold the USD for a while
to reduce chance of reversals, or charge higher fees (I'd say 6-10%) to compensate for the risk.
http://everyjoe.com/work/may-scale-of-monetary-hardness-162/

The reason PP and other similar systems hate trades for bitcoin, separate from any legal reason,
is that bitcoin are irrevocable and they're not, which gives the transaction higher risk of fraud.  From their
point of view, they will simply see more fraud when payments go to bitcoin (like they did with payments to
e-gold, which was also irrevocable), and probably so much (since e-gold was, and bitcoin is, in such high demand)
fraud, they will simply disallow it to protect themselves.  Liberty Reserve already has irrevocable USD transfers
which makes it ideal to trade with Bitcoin (and I applaud mtgox for accepting it),
which means you still have to find how to get money into LR.

Also, virwox.com started trading in bitcoin, they're the largest 3rd party Second Life Linden (SLL) Dollar exchange.
You can now use Lindens to buy bitcoins directly on virwox.com.
https://www.virwox.com?r=78f8 (https://www.virwox.com?r=78f8)  (this is my referral link)

just need to start hacking the system.

here's an example that i think would work

http://secure.newegg.com/GiftCertificate/GiftCardStep1.aspx

i can use my credit card to buy an electronic gift card through newegg.
i then use that gift card as currency.

the trader can set up an account without linking any credit card or bank account to it, when creating the account select "pay by mail with check or money order"
but then when ordering use the gift card.

clearcoin escrow could be used to hold the bitcoins until the newegg order arrives and there are no problems

So if I'm reading this right, it's basically none of them.

What's the official word on Dwolla then?  Is it officially sanctioned under their TOS to trade vs. Bitcoin?  If so, they would be a good option, for U.S. users only of course.

  - http://www.dwolla.org/help/the-famous-faq-section/

why is everyone still going on about ... can I convert ....

WTF people .. just buy your shit with BTC .. how @#$% hard is that ...

convert to what .. chipmunks  .. get real .. your using BTC because your sick an F@#$% tired of the Fiat shit ... so why the @#%$ are your all trying to convert back to begin with???  You have real MONEY now .. USE IT.

How do you propose we obtain BTC to begin with?

Start a business .. provide a service, sell goods, request payment in BTC from employer ... ??? just like every other currency.

you want some .. earn it ... that was hard wasn't it!

...it's just currency conversion.  I don't see why you have to be so angry about it.  Good luck with your crusade.

I'm not getting angry .... I'm pointing out the obvious ...

but as for as ..  it's just a .....
no ... it's not .. that's like saying when the Republic of the U.S. was first created .. it was OK to talk about it being a Democracy .. uh .. no it wasn't .. they'd a shot you for treason ... and guee .. all those that still did it .. got there way .. the U.S. IS now a democracy, there is NO law except the guns and corruption that EVERY true democracy brings ...congratulations on that one.

so no ... it's not OK to discuss some things .. or you MAKE them real ...no matter how negative.

I don't even know what you're trying to argue anymore, or what relevance it has to the original post here.

When I can spend bitcoins at the grocery store, there will be little further need for such exchanges. Until then, you would be better served by coming up with ways to make it possible to spend bitcoins at the grocery store.

Bitmunchies :3

The grocery store needs good exchanges, even if you don't.

Someone called for groceries?  Bitmunchies is your place!  :D

In all seriousness, though, this is a problem.  Even if you do determine to make BTC through some business, you'll still have to cash them out.  For instance, unless my suppliers will start accepting bitcoins, I'm going to have to convert the majority of my revenue back into USD.  Otherwise it is nothing but a sophisticated conversion technique where one loses USD and gains BTC at a predictable rate.

The thing that won me over is that a prepaid cc works just fine for my suppliers.  It is a little inconvenient, but how many things are there that you are required to pay in cash?  Hell, I'm pretty sure you can even pay your taxes with a cc.  As long as you keep your day job, and at least a little cash, BTC and prepaid cc are 100% useful.

How old are you?  ::)

My boss doesn't hand out checks in bitcoins and I'm not a retailer. Last time I checked, the grocery store and the gas pump don't have a bitcoin addresses. My bills? Can't pay them with bitcoins either.

Get real.

I think if people would use BTC marketplaces with easy access in future, this will not be such a big problem. They only need to open a new account at a payment processing service they didn´t use before, and then start trading with other people on a marketplace for BTC. These payment processing sites will not be able to cancel all accounts. If it happens, then trade with another. Well, some kind of reputation system would be helpfull.

I made a list of payment processing service here: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7069.0 (http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7069.0)
I try to sort them and start a discussion what are pros and cons of them. Maybe we find ways which can´t be blocked. For e.g. selling scans of Ukash and cashing out with a debit.

Thanks for the link; it looks like a useful list.

I imagine that as the BTC market grows, this will become less of an issue.  Banks are already used to holding checks until they clear.  It isn't too hard to imagine a similar system being put in place for BTC->USD or any other conventional money.

I think that the accepted way to buy and sell bitcoins for credit card via PayPal is going to be selling paper gift certificates on Ebay. I started a thread about it here:

http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7072.0