Bitcoin Forum

What if someone (governments together with banks) would decide to shut down the Internet? Would bitcoin survive? Is it possible to transfer directly p2p somehow? Any thoughts? How strong this whole industry is really?

Of course it will, we'll just run really long RJ-45 cables from computer to computer and create our own Internet. It's a bit like file sharing, WAN connections only made it easier but if people really wanted to share files they would find another way around it no matter what, even if it means giving someone 5000 floppy disks with .RAR archives.

What if someone (governments together with banks) would decide to shut down the Internet? Would bitcoin survive? Is it possible to transfer directly p2p somehow? Any thoughts? How strong this whole industry is really?

What about directly communicating from cell phone to cell phone? transmitting bitcoins that way.

What about directly communicating from cell phone to cell phone? transmitting bitcoins that way.

What if someone (governments together with banks) would decide to shut down the Internet? Would bitcoin survive? Is it possible to transfer directly p2p somehow? Any thoughts? How strong this whole industry is really?

I have my doubts about any products' survival without the internet.

It might be inconvenient but the world existed for a long time before internet

Cell phone to cell phone communication relied on internet infrastructure.

It would be impossible for the government to shut down the internet. Most of what is on the internet is protected by the 1st amendment, therefore the internet is protected by the constitution. 

It could survive, just send a usb with your transaction to every node through the mail.  Simple.

It would be very easy to double spend your coins doing this. The various nodes would also not have a way to communicate with each other.

Yeah how does the block chain update without a network?  

The Bitcoin network should not depend on the Internet forever. In case of a major Internet failure (caused by wars, natural disasters, corrupt governments, etc) we would become "hostages". There should be a "backup network"  in wich Bitcoin could function. A P2P network seems to be the ideal: It is not impossible (although it seems to be difficult at first) that an independent P2P network is created, to coexist running in parallel with the Internet, but with its own infrastructure.

There's a discussion on this subject here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=666425

I'm pretty sure shutting down the internet would cause bigger problems...

What if someone (governments together with banks) would decide to shut down the Internet?

The governments would not survive. The whole globalized society would not survive. It would implode and disappear within days and weeks. All nuclear plants would spread its nuclear inventory into the atmosphere as soon as the power grids collapse.

P2P, assuming that it doesn't have a centralized system, could also mean that we could be free from the NSA and so, since our communication would go through wires (Hypothetically), making it so they would have to literally have a box on the cable watching data flowing.

I think a P2P internet would be a good idea, namely for Bitcoin, and I'm sure that it would help to increase it's price, as there is now a way that Bitcoin can remain viable, even in times of supposed crisis.

Or just set up stations in cities everywhere that are connected to this network, and people can optionally have one connected to their house.

The internet is P2P and it is decentralized.

Do you even know how nuclear reactors work? They have back-up generators, which keep them going for a few days to prevent an accident, and they can be dis-armed/rendered harmless within a day at most.

The power grids would collapse, that's a given. But there is nothing to say nuclear plants will just explode once it goes down.

Things like that don't explode for the sake of exploding. They have massive safety measures in place to help stop meltdowns.

What about Fukushima?

That wasn't from a power grid failure. If you even watched the news, let alone research it, you'd know it was because salt water had crossed over the barriers made to protect the station, and began to cause havoc inside. Stuff got flooded, generators weren't activated (Since they had died) to keep emergency procedures going on, and people didn't do what they were supposed to.

The generators got flooded out while they tried to turn off the cores, which in turn caused a total loss of power (No outside grid, no generators, no cores) and it prevented most of the machines from running, extracting the uranium rods, and tucking them away. Instead, the cooling system was flooded out, rods were left running, and it overheated.

It was the Tsunami, not the grid that caused it to die.

The point is even safety measures fail.   I believe they engineered a sea wall in case of tsunami but they didn't build it high enougg

They can fail, but they won't fail (Or at least, highly unlikely) that they'll fail if the grid goes down. That was the point of my discussion.

They did have a sea wall, and I think it was something like 2 feet too low (Most likely more than that) and the water overflowed into the plant. So you did get that fact right  :D

Erm,  I don't why you being so cocky.   But Fukushima did lose power to the emergency generator and the the backup batteries.   So total loss of power can result in meltdown.

Of course won't survive, or you can use LAN/WLAN  :P

But, if goverment shutdown. There will be much more bigger problem.
Global Financial Crisis might happen again  ;D
And there are riot to restore internet

What about Fukushima?

Two years ago bitcoin could have died, along with the Internet:
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/186805-the-solar-storm-of-2012-that-almost-sent-us-back-to-a-post-apocalyptic-stone-age

The problem is not switching off internet, it is keeping it switched off not locally but globally.

You could have an AM radio signal broadcasting, globally, transactions and the blockchain.
You could have satellite broadcasting the transactions and the blockchain
You could have the DVB-T/S/C broadcasting transactions and the blockchain.
You could have wi-fi and wired ethernet networks to broadcast transactions and the blockchain.
You could have analog modems do it.

You can't stop neither Internet or Bitcoin.
I mean how can you think that Internet or Bitcoin can be stopped ? Do you think there is an ON/OFF button somewhere ?
WTF ?

The Bitcoin network should not depend on the Internet forever. In case of a major Internet failure (caused by wars, natural disasters, corrupt governments, etc) we would become "hostages". There should be a "backup network"  in wich Bitcoin could function. A P2P network seems to be the ideal: It is not impossible (although it seems to be difficult at first) that an independent P2P network is created, to coexist running in parallel with the Internet, but with its own infrastructure.

There's a discussion on this subject here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=666425

No internet = bitcoin dead.

No internet = bitcoin dead.

What if someone (governments together with banks) would decide to shut down the Internet? Would bitcoin survive? Is it possible to transfer directly p2p somehow? Any thoughts? How strong this whole industry is really?

I don't think governments will be able to kill bitcoin. There are many different managements.

They might not be able to wipe it off the face of the planet, but they could effectively kill it.  They could outright ban it or regulate it into oblivion.

They might not be able to wipe it off the face of the planet, but they could effectively kill it.  They could outright ban it or regulate it into oblivion.

Can people talk shit without Internet ?

In my opinion bitcoin are exist just because of internet and when you shut down the internet bitcoin community will disappear.

Sadly he's right
How will the Bitcoin community survive with it the internet? How will we trade our coins? How will the average user even get a hold of a Bitcoin without going through so much trouble like ringing around or exchanging in person?
It'll be impossible for Bitcoin to grow any further if the internet is off. It'll be impossible for Bitcoin to SURVIVE. It just won't happen.

As much as all of us dreamers want to believe that radio waves can submit transactions that's not what it is about. Besides, there will be much larger worries than Bitcoin if the internet does in fact shut off.

We dusted off the footage that originally ended up on the cutting room floor to bring you the final chapter in the Bitcoin Fanatics trilogy. Hope you enjoy! :)

Shit Bitcoin Fanatics Say, Part 3
http://youtu.be/gYnLkF4PJlQ

Exactly... There are bigger worries if the internet dies as opposed to worrying about what will happen to Bitcoin.

Chances are, however, that those with physical Bitcoins will start laughing at us (Maybe).

In all honesty, internet dies, 40% of population dies, banking dies, and we return to the dark ages.

You know the internet only existed since 90s, dont you?   

And are you aware how dependent we are on the internet now?

Power, banking, basic necessities (Ordering and the like), this forum (And every other forum), people's facebook dependency, Some phone systems now (Some ISPs also provide phone service via Wifi), manufacturing, etc, are connected via the internet.

Pre-90s was when there WASN'T any of this connection. Now, everything migrated to the internet, and we're now really dependent on its survival.

You can't buy a plane ticket online if the internet goes down, and you can sometimes buy it at the door. How are your manufacturing managers supposed to communicate with China once satellite and wifi service is down?

Basic utilities are often monitored via the internet, or information/changes that have to be made are shuttled back-and-forth via the internet.

Oh, the internet went down? Guess we won't know about the electrical station that stopped working, and no-one can call us since the power's out...

Life without internet in 2010's is like life without electricity in 1990's.
Not imaginable. :)

I agree bitcoin needs internet to survive but maybe the internet of tomorrow will be different from the internet of today

You know the internet only existed since 90s, dont you?  

<snip>
Yeah so we'll be inconvenienced.   I doubt 40% of the population will die.  We will adapt somehow

The internet has only been around for a short time, however our economy and population is heavily dependent on it. If the internet were to somehow "disappear" overnight then much of the economy would be in ruins, which would cause people to unable to be able to buy food and/or medical supplies and/or be able to treat a number of medical aliments that the internet helps treat (via diagnosis, treatment, gathering of data, ect.)

Outernet will utilize a constellation of low-cost, miniature satellites and existing infrastructure in geostationary orbit. In both cases, satellites receive content from the web through a network of ground stations which uplink content that the community has collectively requested. The data packets are broadcast in loops so that poor signal quality does not prevent continuous updating of content.

One of the key tenets is that bitcoin block data is easy to distribute widely.  Information wants to be free.  One of the ways we may keep bitcoin healthy and free is finding alternative ways to distribute block chain data.  This provides resilience in case the P2P mesh network is attacked.

My personal favorite is satellite distribution, something I have been working on quietly in the background.  Satellites means one of two things:

• 1. Buy some bandwidth on an existing satellite.
• 2. Launch your own satellite.

Buying bandwidth is the most cost-effective, and readily attainable method today.  However, not just any satellite channel will do.  Bitcoin requires a dedicated, one-to-many broadcast mechanism.  This is like renting a TV channel -- although at much lower bandwidth requirements (1MB every minute or two).

Nanosatellites have recently cut satellite costs down from the absurd, traditional $20m+ build, $50m+ launch.  There is now a standardized cubesat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CubeSat) size.  Two innovations reduced launch costs down into the $100k's range: (1) Many organizations collaborate together (rideshare), paying a portion of the launch cost.  Sometimes 27 or more cubesats are launched at once.  (2) These clusters of cubesats are launched as a secondary payload.  A primary payload has priority, which means secondary payloads are sometimes not launched into a proper orbit.  With these two factors, cubesat construction and launch is lowered to a reachable price: $2m or so.

Several people, including some investors, in the bitcoin community have privately expressed interest.  It seemed like a good time to move forward with Phase 1 of the project.

Phase 1 is:   flesh out cubesat specifications, research leased bandwidth pricing, and specific data needs (xmit tech, frequencies).  The initial goal is broadcasting worldwide (or at least major continents) the latest bitcoin block, over and over again.  Stretch goals include broadcasting recent chains, recent TX's, and other data.

A word about government involvement:  Set expectations properly.  There are three points at which government is inevitably involved, at some level: (a) getting launch approval, (b) ground station(s) inevitably must be located in some useful geolocation, and (c) frequency selection.   Fundamentally, these satellites will be broadcasting public, not-encrypted blockchain data, so the content should not be an issue.

Donations accepted at 1M9MyyPsAak7zRjW4D96pTxDaAEpDDZLR7 (https://blockchain.info/address/1M9MyyPsAak7zRjW4D96pTxDaAEpDDZLR7)

Feb 05 update:

Project update #1 (PDF): http://www.dunveganspace.com/goals/bitsat/BitSatUpdate1.pdf
BitSat architecture, v0.1 (PDF): http://www.dunveganspace.com/goals/bitsat/BitSatArchitecture-0.1.pdf

Files posted on http://www.dunveganspace.com/goals/bitsat

Sponsors (1 BTC or more):

• Mohit Kalra (2 BTC, May 2014)
• Unknown (https://blockchain.info/tx/46bd63b44508dec10bca13ece35a9b85aac3c9460682d656f996d9114b8fc6f0) (1 BTC, Apr 2014)
• http://www.redstarmining.com/ (1 BTC, Jan 2014)
• Roger Ver (5 BTC, Dec 2013)
• Erik Voorhees (5 BTC, Dec 2013)
• Rusty Russell (1 BTC, Dec 2013)
• BitcoinGrant.org (25 BTC, Nov 2013)
• Jeff Garzik (1 BTC, Nov 2013)

Standard disclaimer:  This is a personal project.  Nothing to do with my employer.

Radio waves could work, but let's assume no wireless communication...

Bitcoin could probably survive without internet per-se, but there would still have to be a Bitcoin network. Perhaps people could print out signed transactions and deliver or mail them to their local node, which would exchange with some other nodes (either on paper of digital media such as SD cards). Each region/nation could have a "supernode" clearing-houses which would receive local transactions and send them to foreign supernodes  (maybe via telegraph cables? If we are generous to ourselves) and vice-versa in order to speed the regular node-to-node propagation.

(*Sigh*, when I started this post I didn't realize how ridiculous this would sound)

I have little idea how mining would work because I don't know enough about how it works now, but presumably blocks could be distributed by the same methods, although mining might have to be done by super-nodes exclusively.

In that situation, I'd say paper currency is probably better, BUT I would like to see the look on my face when I get a letter in the snail-mail letting me know that "You've received a Bitcoin payment for 125 mBTC!" or "Your payment of 125 mBTC to 1CBNHbNNJ4C3dTELRJq312hXFwUqxg7bnm has been confirmed!"

If Internet has shut down, the whole world will affect not only bitcoin. So I think living without the Internet nowadays is impossible to happened.

Yes, it's possible if some authority decide to shut down Internet but hope this will never happen.

Thats the weirdest hypothetical situation i have seen on these forums

There was an editorial in the WSJ today that highlighted the thread of a nuke being detonated over North America. It said that the EMP would do serious damage to the entire country. I would argue that this would be the only real way to shut down the internet and/or "ban" bitcoin.

What if someone (governments together with banks) would decide to shut down the Internet? Would bitcoin survive? Is it possible to transfer directly p2p somehow? Any thoughts? How strong this whole industry is really?

A letter in the mail would not allow you to know if the TX was actually confirmed, nor would it allow you to check for double spends and reject the TX if your letter is a double spend.

You'd get a letter several days later letting you know that "Your payment of 125 mBTC to 1CBNHbNNJ4C3dTELRJq312hXFwUqxg7bnm has been confirmed!" ;)

There was an editorial in the WSJ today that highlighted the thread of a nuke being detonated over North America. It said that the EMP would do serious damage to the entire country. I would argue that this would be the only real way to shut down the internet and/or "ban" bitcoin.

Who would send this letter? I can't imagine anyone paying for anything close to this kind of service without there being some kind of central authority. Additionally a letter in the mail will cost at least 34 cents while most transactions today cost 5 cents making it at the very minimum 7 times as expensive to send a TX then with "todays" bitcoin.

What if someone (governments together with banks) would decide to shut down the Internet? Would bitcoin survive? Is it possible to transfer directly p2p somehow? Any thoughts? How strong this whole industry is really?

What if someone (governments together with banks) would decide to shut down the Internet? Would bitcoin survive? Is it possible to transfer directly p2p somehow? Any thoughts? How strong this whole industry is really?

The nodes would. I'm sure there would probably be a fee to "connect" to nodes as well. Increased costs are to be expected any time there is a massive reduction in technology.

When, I talk to people about bitcoin, they often tell me that it is BS because yoa can not use it without electricity. They are like, when electricity in your area will go off, you are poorest guy in world. I found that argument stupid, but dont really know what to tell them. for some reason they all count on not having electricity available...

When, I talk to people about bitcoin, they often tell me that it is BS because yoa can not use it without electricity. They are like, when electricity in your area will go off, you are poorest guy in world. I found that argument stupid, but dont really know what to tell them. for some reason they all count on not having electricity available...

There was an editorial in the WSJ today that highlighted the thread of a nuke being detonated over North America. It said that the EMP would do serious damage to the entire country. I would argue that this would be the only real way to shut down the internet and/or "ban" bitcoin.

It's not that complicated.
Remember that woman in Georgia that cut a few cables and two countries were left offline for two days?

The internet is just a bunch of computers hooked with cables , cut 4 or 5 of the most important ones and chaos will rule.

http://gizmodo.com/5912383/how-to-destroy-the-internet

What's even more scary is that the power grid is pretty similar.  There are only a few places through which a lot of the electricity passes (at least in the US).  Although, I would imagine that a lot of places could still get at least some power from local power plants.  I'm not sure how all of that is set up.

What's even more scary is that the power grid is pretty similar.  There are only a few places through which a lot of the electricity passes (at least in the US).  Although, I would imagine that a lot of places could still get at least some power from local power plants.  I'm not sure how all of that is set up.

Bitcoin needs internet how can it sync without it

To power up your house you only need your equipment.
Solar panels , wind or gas generators.

In the case of the internet you don't only need your computer and your equipment but you also need the others to have those and in place plus a way of communicating with them.

You can have your own power plant but you can't have your own internet.

Didn't realize the internet required so many "things" to work properly for us to use it. Bitcoin and blockchain are highly depended on the internet to operate without a fuss.

So if internet is to go down, so too will bitcoin and blockchain.

Whats the point of living in a post internet world? that would mean humanity is over.

Lol.. not all. There are lots of people who doesnt have internet. Maybe close to half of the worlds population doesnt have internet.

Nope, BTC uses the net for everything it's based on. The only way I could think of it surviving without it is if the network was based on a massive LAN where each PC with the wallet was physically connected. Other then that, nope. I could br wrong though, please correct me if so.

if you shut down the internet only offline wallets would continue to exist

and nope, radio waves just won't cut it

People CANT survive without internet.

I'm wondering how did my ancestors survived in the past without internet? :P

I love how everyone is so much in denial that Bitcoin can be killed off by turning off the Wifi :P

I'm wondering how did my ancestors survived in the past without internet? :P

I feel safe as long as my 25 Mb/s symmetrical 2 ms roundtrip link to the ISP ticks.

The economy was much less efficient and people had a much lower standard of living.

Bullshit.
For a lot of essential functions the internet only saves a meager amount.
I have already dealt with institutions that that calculate with "ok, and what happens when a tank blows up an office?" type of events. Internet is a "nice to have" to save a couple of expenses, but its very far from being essential.

Bitcoin can't survive without internet. Bitcoin is linked with internet.

Indeed , but think about it, this whole scenareo is nuts, there's no way humanity would survive without internet, if internet goes down it can only mean something really fucked up happened. So not even Gold will survive, only weapons and food and clean water.

This is not true. Russia is planning on potentially trying to shut off the internet in Russia in the event of civil unrest. The world has survived for a very long time without the internet.

The economy would be much less efficient, however it would not mean the end of the world

The world has survived for a very long time without electricity. I don't think any of us could imagine such a scenario today.

Internet down = Bitcoin Doomsday

This internet things become the major risk for bitcoin.

Gox cause $ 1200 to $ 800 , Internet Down forever will cause Bitcoin $ 0 aka dust

And if your ISP was shut down?

And that's why it's not wise to invest all of one's wealth into bitcoin.

I don't think so. Bitcoin is mainly based on a P2P protocol and consequently to work Internet is necessary. But, if someone create a different version of Bitcoin without the use of Internet, there is possibility that it can be survive  :)

If the internet going down is the only risk with investing in bitcoins, I would gladly take it.  ;D

The 'internet going down' is far from the only risk of someone investing in bitcoin. There are many, many other risks involved in bitcoin. It is still very new and is far from certain to succeed over the long term.

The internet no longer existing is only one thing that would cause bitcoin to no longer become useful

The internet isn't just one physical point on Earth, it's a centralized system of communication. You can't just "shut down the internet", unless in the case of some EMP or nuclear apocalypse, which will pose more problems than simply Bitcoin

If the internet was actually centralized then it could be disconnected by attacking the central authority that controls the internet. The internet however is not centralized and cannot be shut down as no one entity controls the internet. If a major provider of internet service (either an ISP or a service that provides the "backbone" of the internet) were to be shut down because of an attack or otherwise then other service providers would be able to pick up the slack

That was a typo, I meant to say it's NOT a centralized system of communication. The rest of my statement supports that.

I would say that even an EMP attack would not be able to shut down the entire internet (unless the attack spread throughout the entire world) as an EMP attack would simply shut down part of the internet but other parts would be able to pick up the slack.