Bitcoin Forum

hi, I am having my first problem with using lbtc in two years. I am going into dispute but the points raised are not clear to me perhaps some insights from the community can clarify the problem. I bought btc and paid within 5 minutes using faster payments in the uk. However the seller would not release the btc from escrow until I sent a photograph of my credit card (back and front with sensitive data covered) to them as ID. I could not as I do not have any means of doing that -I only have a pay as you go phone so I asked for what else they would accept. I got no reply and they said a dispute with  lbtc would require this information anyway? As I have never been in this situation but it raises some issues.
 1) I do not know anywhere in the world a credit card is accepted as ID- It could be stolen!
2)The seller never informed me prior to the transaction that this was a requirement so beware of sending money to sellers unless you can comply and get the btc's released from escrow within 90 minuits.
 3) The seller said "scammers on this site  are using other peoples a/c to buy btc's". I would also like to know how to do this - any suggestions please!! If it turns out that lbtc do require some form of recognised ID then they are imo applying kyc through the backdoor and should be up front about it. comments welcome.

That's BS, terms should be clear before the payment. And just like you said, credit card is not a form of ID. Most credit/debit cards don't even have your picture on it. Which seller is this? Put a link to his profile.

Deb2com
Information on Deb2com
Trade volume
Higher than 150 BTC
Number of confirmed trades
100+
…with 690 different partners
Feedback score
99 %
Real name verification
5 trusted verifications, 4 verifications, 1 rejected verifications
Account created
8 months ago
Last seen
1 hour, 12 minutes ago
Language
English
Email
Verified
Phone number
Verified
Trust
Trusted by 20+ people
Blocks
Blocked by 4 people
Pro Trader

You do not currently trust Deb2com.
Seller escrow release times
Median: 17 min
Average: 68 min

sorry not tech savy enough to create a link but these are the sellers details- I have to wait another day(48 hrs in total) for the dispute procedure to "appear"

Some sellers will need more information from buyer to prevent charge back and scam.

Just copy and paste the url here.

Anyway it looks like this guy's account has been hacked and the person you are dealing with is the hacker. No legitimate reason for him to ask for your credit/debit card details like that. Neither is localbitcoins going to ask you for it.

You should contact localbitcoins support and let them know. Keep the whole conversation in the localbitcoins chat box so that they can refer to it.

You can just use the dispute resolution service that LBC offers and prove that you actually sent the funds. The funds should be released from escrow to you.

https://localbitcoins.com/ad/52149/purchase-bitcoin-bank-transfer-united-kingdom-united-kingdom

He makes it pretty clear that he requires ID in the "Terms of trade with Deb2com".

I do not mind admitting I have not been secure enough to read all the info on a seller before buying- However I do not know where "Terms of trade with Deb2com"
are. So if I can eventually find them I will check what you mean and do so with other sellers in future.

It's on the page you come to when you click buy or sell for a particular offer.

yes its very clever- this has been updated since I traded it was not there when I traded or I would not have sent cash.

Terms of trade with Deb2com

Hi I am online most of the time between 08:00am- 02.00am. Please use your first name as REFERENCE when making online transfer...Usually deals are completed in under 5 mins.
CASH Deposits accepted, id may be required for deposits will £750
For new buyers with few feedbacks id will be required .
Photo id or pic of bank card showing name and acc. no. are acceptable. ID details must match the bank account.
Please note we will not supply bitcoin for illegal purposes.
Thanks

the reference given to me was "tithe" nothing about my first name also unsure what "deposits will £750" means ? maybe id is required greater than that but mine was smaller. I have two years of trading history-this is my first problem/dispute. I asked what ID but got no response -how can ID be matched to a bank a/c am I missing something or am I dealing with a non native english speaking person?.

If you have actually sent the funds to the seller then he needs to release the bitcoin. If he does not do then they he needs to send the fiat back to you.

Try to ask the support if the trade can be canceled, they still have the bitcoins, they can simply ask the seller to return your cash deposit back to you and after that they can release the bitcoins back to him.

yes good idea- I have completed many trades with sellers who required "real name verification" which I have. I choose to to use local btc because I do not want to go through the kyc procedures of an exchange. I am unwilling to provide a photo of my bank card and ID (still unspecified-but probably including a photo) over the internet and straight into the data files of the NSA forever. I have no intention of doing harm to others (but I would say that). however I resent the information gathering creep that is going on and I feel I need to draw a line somewhere. I will resist as far as possible this sellers authoritarian agenda and post the out come. either by support responding or the dispute procedure requirements.

It is an inevitable trend

something fishy going on with localbitcoin.com there appears to be favouritism with a scammer demanding kyc!


July 23, 2014, 12:40 p.m.

reginald1377: the box will not allow a screen shot so I have to find someone who knows how to convert it to a document to send within 24 hrs why can you file a dipute and not me? why do you say you have not received the funds I have proof they were sent! you are a scammer trying to take my cash.
July 23, 2014, 12:18 p.m.

Deb2com : I have already sent the transaction to dispute anyway. Support should communicate with you .
July 23, 2014, 12:15 p.m.

reginald1377: no -I am waiting for dispute method to start so lbtc can resolve this . but so far more than 48 hrs after there is nothing on this page? no dispute button? or dispute procedure?. .
July 22, 2014, 11:58 p.m.

Deb2com : Hello, ain't you going to collect your coins by providing the BANKCARD and ID

ps I am going to the bank now to ask the fraud dept to investigate why this person claims to not have received the cash although my a/c has been debited.

21/07/2014    BILL PAYMENT TO M Ade REFERENCE tithe, MANDATE NO 0040       £113.15

What does he means in the end when he says he is going to his bank to ask the fraud dept to investigate? I don't understand what is he trying to do ?

I had a text from lbtc saying the trade was in dispute and the seller said they had not received the funds. This made me believe at the time I was going to loose the coins and the cash so I have registered a complaint against the seller to recover the cash. However that is not what the seller says:
 July 23, 2014, 2:09 p.m.

Deb2com : I never said your money is not with me but I told you I need proof of payment to verify the money is from the genuine owner of the account.
July 23, 2014, 2 p.m.

Deb2com : You wrote me that you couldn't get a dispute box then I did , of course I received your payment but I only asked for a proof of the payment. Don't be funny I have your money but you need to send the bankcard of payment and ID as proof for me to release the coins to you
 
I admit I am unable technically (because I do not know how to convert relevant forms into documents to send) and also I am reluctant to put my bank a/c details or ID online. I believe I have done enough to show I sent the money. I do not believe any document showing my full bank details proves the a/c is mine neither does ID (two passengers on MA197 were travelling with false passports). I do not believe the seller has any intention of releasing the btc or returning my cash so I have no choice but to recover my money through the bank that;s what I am trying to do.

He's afraid that you've tricked someone else into sending the money by promising to sell them something. It's a very common way to scam people.

Bad trades like this and so many others I see on here and on other places tells me that it is becoming harder and harder to trade btc for fiat and vice versa, I think this is a real problem, someone told me the other day that even cash deposits through bank accounts and wire transfers can also be charged back if someone really wanted, though they are not as easy as paypal. :-\

Can't you get some sort of document from your bank (if you don't already have one) which does not reveal your sensitive information but just enough to prove that it was you who sent the money and it was your bank account?

yes- that's what I have set up today. Unfortunately it takes 3 days and then I have to find someone who can download it to a document file and forward it!. But my time limit on the escrow runs out in 12 hrs and there is nothing more I can do now. I shall have to rely on the bank to recover the funds from the sellers a/c.

 reginald1377: final statement prior to closing of the dispute time window:
1) selller has changed "terms of trade" from what I saw on 21/7/2014 to what is there now. Therefore I do not feel bound by kyc requirements.
2 I either cannot or will not (you choose) supply information which imposes on my right to a private financial life.
3)The requirements by lbtc are kyc by the back door:
A receipt of the payment
Bank bill statement
Personal ID document
Anything requested by LocalBitcoins support can also be uploaded here.
4) You can either -release the btc or return the fiat to the a/c from which it originated (thereby obviating your concern it came from an a/c other than my own) or keep both the btc and fiat for now.
5)I have instigated a fraud enquiry with the bank as I paid for goods you failed to supply. Only then when your a/c is debited by the bank will you realise the payment was from a genuine owner of the a/c.
6)Be aware that all this information will be online to the whole bitcoin community worldwide so that all bitcoiners can see and understand how localbitcoin.com and at least one of its sellers functions.
7) I will be posting a negative feedback report on this trade.

ps: I will also post any response and the decision of lbtc here so be careful if you decide to be "economical with the truth"

That is a method I was not aware of! I wish someone would produce a "common scamming methods manual" so we can familiarise ourselves with all these!
I know kyc does not work because if it did there would be no scams in the fiat world. I do not think it will work in btc but I have avoided exchanges and this is my first problem in lbtc. For example I fail to see a photo of a bank card proves anything other than I have the card in my possession, stolen,borrowed or otherwise? I fail to see ID being linked to any bank a/c since the only relevant similarity would be the name (I have real name verification on the site). But I share my initial and surname with my son and at least one famous actor+ hundreds more people. I rely more on trust rating but the seller obviously does not?. I do not pretend to know what the answer to scammers is but I know kyc is not the answer.

attempting to resolve this trade:

 July 24, 2014, 10:25 a.m.

reginald1377: I have had real name verification on this site for a long time! I use Santander -same as you.
July 24, 2014, 10:22 a.m.

Deb2com : Or kindly tell me the name of the bank you sent money from, then I will release to you , is that ok.?
July 24, 2014, 10:20 a.m.

Deb2com : If you just give me just one ID showing your name, I will release the coins than going through all this stress mate
July 24, 2014, 9:52 a.m.

Deb2com : Why are you so difficult? Can you send me the account pls

July 24, 2014, 10:29 a.m.

Deb2com : Ok, good I will release to you on trust pls I will advise that you read terms of trade next time you buy from other sellers. I could just verify now because you paid from the same bank as me and I could see that your account has been created for long but you name is not yet verified as you claim. I will release on trust. Cheers

RESOLVED.
As with all disputes a negotiated settlement involving compromise is often the only answer. The sellers compromise was releasing the btc on a trust basis! My compromise was accepting the blame for not "allegedly" reading or understanding the terms and conditions.

conclusion. In my opinion a trust based system is the best way forward for btc. kyc failed in the fiat system and is failing in its application to btc. I do not know the answer for scammers, fraudsters and con-men? similarly the community is having difficulties with hackers, inside traders and colleagues in exchanges? any comments on how these can be tackled would be illuminating and welcome.

Glad that it worked out for you man, and since I accompanied you through this ordeal you should.. lol jk

But seriously, Localbitcoins did nothing in this, as an escrow they should really explain everything to each side prior to the trade, since they're getting paid to do this they should be involved in this more actively rather than sit in corner and watch. I hope I never have to trade with localbitcoins, I don't like them very much.

thanks for the moral support. I only use lbtc because it is at the moment the only alternative to an exchange to trade. To be fair most traders do not apply kyc I was just unfortunate but hope I have learned something in the experience.