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Other => Politics & Society => Topic started by: sana8410 on August 19, 2014, 06:31:31 PM



Title: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: sana8410 on August 19, 2014, 06:31:31 PM
Quote
Panera Bread CEO Ron Shaich supports raising the minimum wage — and he has every reason to.

Panera’s 1,800 nationwide locations are at the forefront of modernizing the way customers experience fast food restaurants. As soon as 2016, the bread and pasta joint will have replaced all of their cashiers with kiosks.

Shaich, who donated $35,800 to the Obama Victory Fund, told USA Today that the move is part of an effort to “never have a customer wait,” but there is growing evidence that as pressure to raise wages builds, employers will turn to wage-free robots to avoid dramatic payroll hikes.

Fast food establishments in European countries with high minimum wages have already begun to replace some of their workforce with automated employers.

All of McDonald’s locations in France, for example, have installed kiosks to substitute and supplement human employees. The kiosks have allowed McDonald’s to avoid some of the high payroll costs of dealing with France’s minimum wage, which currently sits at $12.22 an hour in U.S. dollars. The European country is also suffering from an unemployment rate of over 10 percent.

Although the technology has not been widely adopted, equipment exists to replace almost all of the fast food workforce.

Momentum Machine’s meat-flipping robot, which can turn out 360 juicy burgers in an hour, could “allow a restaurant to spend approximately twice as much on high quality ingredients,” based on the labor costs, the company estimates.

Some companies abroad have already fully replaced human workers with robotic substitutes.

A well-recognized sushi-chain in Japan currently has robots making food while customers order on a touch screen. In lieu of human servers, a conveyer belt delivers their food and a computer tracks customer purchases and automates their bill payment at the end.

Despite the threat of the growing number of cheap and efficient technological opportunities available to restaurant chains, fast food workers, labor unions, and members of the political left have ramped up efforts to pressure lawmakers to raise the minimum wage in recently.

Over the past year, hundreds of protests to hike wages have been staged outside of fast food restaurants across the country, organized by the labor-back groups Fightfor15 and Fast Food Forward, among others.

On Thursday, labor groups plan to expand their campaign to raise the minimum wage to an international level, with protests demanding a $15 hourly wage scheduled to take place on six continents.

Although multiple states and local governments have passed wage hikes since the start of 2014, any initiatives to raise the federal minimum wage are not likely to make it passed Congress.

Currently, there is a Democratic-sponsored bill to push the national minimum wage from $7.25 an hour to $10.10 an hour, but the legislation has already failed to make it through the Senate and stands little chance of getting approved in the Republican-controlled House.
How anyone is shocked by this is beyond me ?


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: Ekaros on August 19, 2014, 07:40:33 PM
It's not all bad, automation increases efficiency and thus purchasing power.

On other hand, there needs to be solution for people who can't find work any more.



Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: pedrog on August 19, 2014, 10:01:34 PM
Humans Need Not Apply (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU) is a great small video about automation by CGP Grey.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: beetcoin on August 19, 2014, 10:30:13 PM
people are still resistant to automated services though. retailers have tried this for some time and it's not exactly perfect.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: BPMich on August 19, 2014, 10:44:07 PM
It boggles my mind that some people don't see this coming. The only reason this technology wasn't being developped earlier was because it was more profitable to just employ people. If you push the minimum wage up, you're just accelerating automation. Ironically it leads to fever jobs, but the people who do have jobs will be paid higher  ;D at the low end anyway. (This is in the short term, in the long term, automation may actually create more jobs, but the price of that is heavy)

I mean come on, if someone is not producing over say $7 of value per hour, and you're suddenly forced to pay them $15, that just doesn't seem like a very sustainable business model, does it now?


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: CoinBoerse.com on August 19, 2014, 10:44:26 PM
people are still resistant to automated services though. retailers have tried this for some time and it's not exactly perfect.

The robots capability is increasing by day. I wonder what would my sons do in the future if most jobs is filled with robots.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: pedrog on August 19, 2014, 10:47:52 PM
people are still resistant to automated services though. retailers have tried this for some time and it's not exactly perfect.

The robots capability is increasing by day. I wonder what would my sons do in the future if most jobs is filled with robots.

Homeless.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: CoinBoerse.com on August 19, 2014, 10:56:29 PM
people are still resistant to automated services though. retailers have tried this for some time and it's not exactly perfect.

The robots capability is increasing by day. I wonder what would my sons do in the future if most jobs is filled with robots.

Homeless.

But who will buy their products if most people don't have money?


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: Ekaros on August 19, 2014, 11:08:43 PM
people are still resistant to automated services though. retailers have tried this for some time and it's not exactly perfect.

The robots capability is increasing by day. I wonder what would my sons do in the future if most jobs is filled with robots.

Homeless.

But who will buy their products if most people don't have money?

There is certain scale that is still workable. It's way too complicated situation in general...


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: Watoshi-Dimobuto on August 19, 2014, 11:16:09 PM
people are still resistant to automated services though. retailers have tried this for some time and it's not exactly perfect.

The robots capability is increasing by day. I wonder what would my sons do in the future if most jobs is filled with robots.

Homeless.

But who will buy their products if most people don't have money?

The governments will provide the needs of the people but the people will be dependent on the government the rest of their life. And the government has 100 percent control of the people.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: CoinBoerse.com on August 19, 2014, 11:20:23 PM
people are still resistant to automated services though. retailers have tried this for some time and it's not exactly perfect.

The robots capability is increasing by day. I wonder what would my sons do in the future if most jobs is filled with robots.

Homeless.

But who will buy their products if most people don't have money?

There is certain scale that is still workable. It's way too complicated situation in general...

Then as the time passby all jobs will be taken by the bots, the peoples money has been all spent. Next is chaos?


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: ClownHunter on August 19, 2014, 11:24:56 PM
It's not all bad, automation increases efficiency and thus purchasing power.

On other hand, there needs to be solution for people who can't find work any more.


This essentially will make it much harder to enter the work force for the first time. This will hurt our youngest generation who has not yet started working and future generations as well. Young people who do not have any skills will have a hard time getting necessary job skills as it would cost too much to hire them and the jobs they are qualified for are done by machines.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: Ekaros on August 19, 2014, 11:49:02 PM
people are still resistant to automated services though. retailers have tried this for some time and it's not exactly perfect.

The robots capability is increasing by day. I wonder what would my sons do in the future if most jobs is filled with robots.

Homeless.

But who will buy their products if most people don't have money?

There is certain scale that is still workable. It's way too complicated situation in general...

Then as the time passby all jobs will be taken by the bots, the peoples money has been all spent. Next is chaos?

I'm not sure if all jobs are ever taken, but basicly those who control sufficient primary resources or ways to recycle them will live very well. Rest will scrape by what they can find. Probably at that point they will be killed due to looming threat or just locked up somewhere...


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: pedrog on August 20, 2014, 12:59:21 AM
people are still resistant to automated services though. retailers have tried this for some time and it's not exactly perfect.

The robots capability is increasing by day. I wonder what would my sons do in the future if most jobs is filled with robots.

Homeless.

But who will buy their products if most people don't have money?

The governments will provide the needs of the people but the people will be dependent on the government the rest of their life. And the government has 100 percent control of the people.

I was not serious with homeless thing...

Actually this is one solution, we may be going into some socialist utopia where the usual market forces don't apply and everything is managed at maximum efficiency by highly advanced algorithms and production and distribution made by robots and other automated machines, and we can do the things we like to do whatever it is...


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: Chef Ramsay on August 20, 2014, 01:12:56 AM
The "check out yourself" kiosks at Meijers grocery chains here make life easier for me but likely has unemployed many cashiers over time. They also have these things at the casinos' food court these days.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: Full Spectrum on August 20, 2014, 05:26:05 AM
What should be noted is if/when advanced A.I. are developed that surpass humans intellect, that will be the day the Earth stands still(for people). Even if each AI costs $1,000,000 a piece, they would automatically kick even the most intelligent out of their jobs such as doctors, engineers, as you don't have to pay an AI as it has no need for food, water, shelter, just power.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: beetcoin on August 20, 2014, 06:43:08 AM
okay, so if you're against welfare (which i understand), and you're also against a minimum wage.. how do you expect poor people to survive? and how do you expect the economy to continue rolling if the the middle class is hamstrung?


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: Mike Christ on August 20, 2014, 07:32:54 AM
okay, so if you're against welfare (which i understand), and you're also against a minimum wage.. how do you expect poor people to survive? and how do you expect the economy to continue rolling if the the middle class is hamstrung?

If an individual's labor at a company is only worth, say, 5$ per hour, and the business has to pay them $8.00 an hour by law, the business doesn't then hire the person anyway, they just don't get hired at all.  That means:

A. No chance for the person to gain the experience needed to make more than $5 an hour, and
B. An hourly wage of 0$, which is, by all standards, much worse than not making a "living wage"

That means the individual making 0$ an hour is not adding wealth to the economy.  Then the individual making 0$ an hour gets on welfare to survive.  Who pays for these people to live?  The middle class, which is indeed burdened by this extra weight they must carry.  This is not even mentioning the increased cost of hiring an American worker thanks to his governmental overlords, over a foreigner willing to work for a fraction of the cost, and even excluding the incredible cost of empire which directly makes the average American that much poorer.  I expect the economy to continue slowing to a halt; there is no "if", the middle class is hamstrung.

Let's say the minimum wage is raised to $10/hr, nationwide.  The direct effects are easily understood: the unemployment rate goes up, the amount of people on welfare increase, and the middle class is further burdened.  Let's say the minimum wage is raised to $20/hr, nationwide.  Same thing, just worse.  At some point, the middle class evaporates--no business can afford to function, nobody can afford paying the bottom rungs $20 an hour, and so the economy either flops, along with the nation, or there's a coup d'état.

But let's say the minimum wage was lowered to just $1/hr.  What would it matter?  Nobody really wants to work for that wage, or less, so there may as well be no minimum wage to stop it; people know what others are worth, and what they themselves are willing to work for, so there's no point for government to actually define a minimum wage, except to buy votes for democrats from welfare recipients (it's the perfect scheme, if you ask me; you not only satisfy the people with a "living wage", but you get more voters for your party: it's brilliant.)  Anyhow, once that's out of the way, and people are no longer prosecuted for wanting to work at their own determined price, the amount of people on welfare diminish, until welfare is no longer required, and the poor people survive immensely better than they did with government assistance.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: Snail2 on August 20, 2014, 10:49:07 AM
The robots capability is increasing by day. I wonder what would my sons do in the future if most jobs is filled with robots.

Your sons should learn robotics, so they can repair the machines vandalized by the unemployed neo-luddites, thus getting a good salary :).


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: Rigon on August 20, 2014, 04:04:42 PM
"There are some structural issues with our economy where a lot of businesses have learned to become much more efficient with a lot fewer workers," Obama said. "You see it when you go to a bank and you use an ATM, you don't go to a bank teller, or you go to the airport and you're using a kiosk instead of checking in at the gate."


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: umair127 on August 20, 2014, 04:13:35 PM
"There are some structural issues with our economy where a lot of businesses have learned to become much more efficient with a lot fewer workers," Obama said. "You see it when you go to a bank and you use an ATM, you don't go to a bank teller, or you go to the airport and you're using a kiosk instead of checking in at the gate."
Structural issues....
when will our "leaders" admit the overwhelming structural issue of our society is a combined lack of personal responsibility, ambition, and relevant education.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: sana8410 on August 20, 2014, 04:14:26 PM
It's not all bad, automation increases efficiency and thus purchasing power.

On other hand, there needs to be solution for people who can't find work any more.


With respect to the fast food jobs that are being lost, this is 100% caused by being priced out by government intervention in payroll related costs. It's ridiculous to force employers to pay above market wages for jobs like this and expect to not have consequences with respect to job loss.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: umair127 on August 20, 2014, 04:18:44 PM
It's not all bad, automation increases efficiency and thus purchasing power.

On other hand, there needs to be solution for people who can't find work any more.


With respect to the fast food jobs that are being lost, this is 100% caused by being priced out by government intervention in payroll related costs. It's ridiculous to force employers to pay above market wages for jobs like this and expect to not have consequences with respect to job loss.
If you think its just unskilled workers' jobs on the chopping block, you're sorely mistaken. All white collar, professional, creative jobs are up for grabs - and the technology already exists to replace them.

Mass automation is already underway, and positions in which humans are required will be incredibly scarce.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: umair127 on August 20, 2014, 04:23:36 PM
Automation isn't inherently a bad thing. It creates a lot of abundance and value for people. The problem is that our current system is wholly unprepared for this. Free market will adopt automation as fast as it can because it's so profitable. But those profits aren't going to be routed back to the society in which they're integrated.

This means that as we stand now, our economy has not a single clue about what to do with 80% of humanity being out of a job within a decade or two. Our response is going to be much slower than the automation trend so we'll end up lagging way behind in adapting to this game changer.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: sana8410 on August 20, 2014, 04:30:50 PM
Automation isn't inherently a bad thing. It creates a lot of abundance and value for people. The problem is that our current system is wholly unprepared for this. Free market will adopt automation as fast as it can because it's so profitable. But those profits aren't going to be routed back to the society in which they're integrated.

This means that as we stand now, our economy has not a single clue about what to do with 80% of humanity being out of a job within a decade or two. Our response is going to be much slower than the automation trend so we'll end up lagging way behind in adapting to this game changer.
Whether or not you agree with it, society will inevitably move toward shorter work weeks and a basic income. This will be funded by higher taxes on wealthy people who are (for the most part) the only beneficiaries of higher profits. They may make a big fuss about it in the interim but they will accept it because they only make money when there is demand, and there is only demand when the general population has money to spend.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: Rigon on August 20, 2014, 04:39:24 PM
It's not all bad, automation increases efficiency and thus purchasing power.

On other hand, there needs to be solution for people who can't find work any more.


With respect to the fast food jobs that are being lost, this is 100% caused by being priced out by government intervention in payroll related costs. It's ridiculous to force employers to pay above market wages for jobs like this and expect to not have consequences with respect to job loss.
Be careful when you say "market wage"

We dont have a free market, so a "market wage" is not simply determined by supply and demand. "market wages" are affected by things like govt assistance programs and minimum wage.

I would argue that if you abolished the minimum wage and eliminated welfare programs, the "market wage" for many of these lower level jobs would be substantially higher than the current minimum wage. Prices for these goods would simply increase or companies would naturally move toward automation if they determined that their customers had no desire to interact with an employee.

Arguing that an arbitrary number (the current minimum wage) is adequate just because no one wants to increase it is dumb.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: spazzdla on August 20, 2014, 04:44:58 PM
The robots capability is increasing by day. I wonder what would my sons do in the future if most jobs is filled with robots.

Your sons should learn robotics, so they can repair the machines vandalized by the unemployed neo-luddites, thus getting a good salary :).

This is a good idea.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: sana8410 on August 20, 2014, 04:48:30 PM
If anything, this is innovation, which we have been sorely lacking. Things much change to progress. This may blow up in his face and be a disaster, this may be something wonderful. This may be a push for some people to go into other fields of employment. Fact of the matter is, the old system wasn't working.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: Wilikon on August 20, 2014, 05:38:40 PM
It boggles my mind that some people don't see this coming. The only reason this technology wasn't being developped earlier was because it was more profitable to just employ people. If you push the minimum wage up, you're just accelerating automation. Ironically it leads to fever jobs, but the people who do have jobs will be paid higher  ;D at the low end anyway. (This is in the short term, in the long term, automation may actually create more jobs, but the price of that is heavy)

I mean come on, if someone is not producing over say $7 of value per hour, and you're suddenly forced to pay them $15, that just doesn't seem like a very sustainable business model, does it now?

Very smart people who seem to understand every single line of code in the bitcoin protocol right here can't accept or reject this 101 economy class as fraud and anti socialistic  :D



Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: pikabit on August 20, 2014, 06:15:59 PM
The objectively dumb thing to do would be to stop automation. So from this premise find solutions.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: zolace on August 21, 2014, 12:20:16 PM
As much as I understand why companies would do it and how technology progresses, this is the start of something bad to come. The last thing we want is less jobs, period.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: umair127 on August 21, 2014, 01:10:39 PM
As much as I understand why companies would do it and how technology progresses, this is the start of something bad to come. The last thing we want is less jobs, period.
This is insane logic to me.But this logic, you think people should still be working 15 hour days in a pre-industrialized factory .I'd rather deal with a machine than a barely literate person that clearly doesn't want to be there.I'm okay with this.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: sana8410 on August 21, 2014, 01:34:36 PM
As much as I understand why companies would do it and how technology progresses, this is the start of something bad to come. The last thing we want is less jobs, period.
This is insane logic to me.But this logic, you think people should still be working 15 hour days in a pre-industrialized factory .I'd rather deal with a machine than a barely literate person that clearly doesn't want to be there.I'm okay with this.
People need to be working, getting paid, and being able to afford food to put on the table and a house to live in. They're not going to get a paycheck if Wall-E takes over their job.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: umair127 on August 21, 2014, 03:09:10 PM
As much as I understand why companies would do it and how technology progresses, this is the start of something bad to come. The last thing we want is less jobs, period.
This is insane logic to me.But this logic, you think people should still be working 15 hour days in a pre-industrialized factory .I'd rather deal with a machine than a barely literate person that clearly doesn't want to be there.I'm okay with this.
People need to be working, getting paid, and being able to afford food to put on the table and a house to live in. They're not going to get a paycheck if Wall-E takes over their job.
Automation is GREAT if we have a society that is able to cope with the majority of people going out of a job.

But we don't. Our society is based on the premise that everyone needs to work.

This is what's going on, and this is why any optimism about people finding new stuff to make a living is completely unfounded:

http://andrewmcafee.org/2012/12/the-...he-us-economy/


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: hackjack on September 08, 2014, 05:48:16 PM
We should all look forward to being lazy, useless layabouts? or like what the founders of Google said along with Carlos Slim...we should place more importance on activities outside of work?

what if we didn't NEED to work so much as a society and we were free to pursue more noble activities?


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: awesome31312 on September 08, 2014, 05:56:23 PM
I don't understand why you guys consider automated ordering a bad thing

This will ensure that useless jobs, like the fast food counter guys, are gotten rid of and replaced with machines, which would be more effective. This won't kill jobs, it will only replace them with newer, better ones. Maintenance of those machines isn't really free guys, someone has to fix it when it's down.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: Bonam on September 08, 2014, 06:50:54 PM
I'm looking forward to more automation in the fast food industry. Less mistakes with your orders. Faster. More sanitary.


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: awesome31312 on September 08, 2014, 08:12:37 PM
I'm looking forward to more automation in the fast food industry. Less mistakes with your orders. Faster. More sanitary.

Not to mention, room for some "fun", especially if the machines are linked to a server :D


Title: Re: Consequences of high minimum wages: Automated ordering kiosks
Post by: TaunSew on September 08, 2014, 11:00:38 PM
We should all look forward to being lazy, useless layabouts? or like what the founders of Google said along with Carlos Slim...we should place more importance on activities outside of work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq-S557XQU

This was already covered in the previously mentioned video about horses.  Since the horses are no longer needed for their labour, does that mean the horses will have all this free time to place more importance on activities outside of work?

No the horse being replaced meant the horse population plummeted and the few horses which remain are primarily work horses in tourism or in regions where people can't afford to mechanize farm labour.


What Corporate CEO is going to pay you to lounge all day without doing anything?  

 The social nets are currently funded by employed persons (who'll soon be out of jobs) or from corporations which receive their revenue from employed masses (who'll soon be out of jobs).