Bitcoin Forum

Alternate cryptocurrencies => Altcoin Discussion => Topic started by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 05:26:18 PM



Title: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 05:26:18 PM
source https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bitshares-the-great-satan-on-the-blockchain/


Kinda like how a $100 bill is worth $100 just because everybody believes it to be so? Exactly. ;)

The power of bitUSD is that it does not have a fixed supply. The BTSX network "prints" as much bitUSD as is necessary to keep the price of bitUSD below that of fiatUSD, and destroys as much as necessary to keep the price above that of fiatUSD. Hence, the price of bitUSD can be neither above nor below that of fiatUSD.

It's very simple: fixed supply = variable price, and fixed price = variable supply.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

The Federal Reserve controls the USD supply.

Replace "Federal Reserve" with "DAC" and add "bit" to "USD"...

The DAC controls the bitUSD supply.

CONGRATULATIONS! YOU'VE JUST INVENTED FEDERAL RESERVE 2.0!

That's the goal. Now what if you had a chance to purchase shares in the Fed in 1920?

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Bitshares is self-admittedly an attempt to recreate a central banking scheme in crypto form.  Bitshares' DPoS is a centralized consensus system that relies upon a set number of nodes achieving consensus.

Quote
In practice BitShares isn't a distributed system, it is more like coordinated synchronized time shared centralized system.  -bytemaster

These 101 delegates are responsible for including transactions on the bitshares network.  Now think about this.  The DAC attempts to set monetary policy for the "bit assets" depending on the market price.  If there are more sellers, the DAC destroys bit assets.  If there are more buyers, the DAC prints more bit assets.  So, whoever controls the transactions included on the blockchain controls the DAC or monetary policy that the DAC enacts on the entire network.  Who controls the transactions included on the blockchain?  The 101 delegates.

How does the Federal Reserve set the monetary policy for the US dollar?

Federal Reserve monetary policy is decided by the FOMC (Federal Open Market Committee).  What is the FOMC?

Quote
It is this Federal Reserve committee which makes key decisions about interest rates and the growth of the United States money supply. -Wikipedia

The Federal Reserve achieves consensus on its monetary policy via a committee made up of delegates.

Bitshares = "Federal Reserve 2.0"
Bitshares' delegates = FOMC


Title: Re: [Bitshares] The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 05:27:40 PM
Actually, I do not speculate on things like those but regarding the recent upsurge of the trust in BitShares I am curious about the opinion and insights of others.

I mean how could anybody in the crypto community would want to mirror the FED?

I cannot believe that to be true.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: bitcoinpaul on August 22, 2014, 06:09:48 PM
Who's the user biophil?


Title: Re: [Bitshares] The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: StanLarimer on August 22, 2014, 06:59:30 PM
Actually, I do not speculate on things like those but regarding the recent upsurge of the trust in BitShares I am curious about the opinion and insights of others.

I mean how could anybody in the crypto community would want to mirror the FED?

I cannot believe that to be true.

Precisely.  Anyone who has done their homework and spent any time at all on bitsharestalk.org over the past year knows that BitShares is the antidote to the Federal Reserve's 100+ years of economic atrocities.   :)

But do yourselves a favor and study before you decide if this is the Next Big Thing or not. 

"Knowledge and Understanding is the ultimate Proof of Work."  :)



Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: toast on August 22, 2014, 07:00:20 PM
this is hilarious, please don't stop


Title: Re: [Bitshares] The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 07:08:39 PM
Actually, I do not speculate on things like those but regarding the recent upsurge of the trust in BitShares I am curious about the opinion and insights of others.

I mean how could anybody in the crypto community would want to mirror the FED?

I cannot believe that to be true.

Precisely.  Anyone who has done their homework and spent any time at all on bitsharestalk.org over the past year knows that BitShares is the antidote to the Federal Reserve's 100+ years of economic atrocities.   :)

But do yourselves a favor and study before you decide if this is the Next Big Thing or not. 

"Knowledge and Understanding is the ultimate Proof of Work."  :)

I am not sure if it is an antidote or just a replacement that changes nothing.

Not sure if you read http://invictus-innovations.com/bitshares-as-dac-bank/

But fractional reserve lending is about robbing the wealth of others. I am not sure if that is in the best interest of the crypto community.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: toast on August 22, 2014, 07:12:29 PM
Actually, I do not speculate on things like those but regarding the recent upsurge of the trust in BitShares I am curious about the opinion and insights of others.

I mean how could anybody in the crypto community would want to mirror the FED?

I cannot believe that to be true.

Precisely.  Anyone who has done their homework and spent any time at all on bitsharestalk.org over the past year knows that BitShares is the antidote to the Federal Reserve's 100+ years of economic atrocities.   :)

But do yourselves a favor and study before you decide if this is the Next Big Thing or not. 

"Knowledge and Understanding is the ultimate Proof of Work."  :)

I am not sure if it is an antidote or just a replacement that changes nothing.

Not sure if you read http://invictus-innovations.com/bitshares-as-dac-bank/

But fractional reserve lending is about robbing the wealth of others. I am not sure if that is in the best interest of the crypto community.

Except it's 150%+ reserve, not fractional reserve.
Does that change how you feel?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: Brilliantrocket on August 22, 2014, 07:13:44 PM
This is a fucking travesty. What kind of degenerate scum would support this blatantly regressive scheme?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: toast on August 22, 2014, 07:14:02 PM
Quote
These 101 delegates are responsible for including transactions on the bitshares network.  Now think about this.  The DAC attempts to set monetary policy for the "bit assets" depending on the market price.  If there are more sellers, the DAC destroys bit assets.  If there are more buyers, the DAC prints more bit assets.  So, whoever controls the transactions included on the blockchain controls the DAC or monetary policy that the DAC enacts on the entire network.  Who controls the transactions included on the blockchain?  The 101 delegates.

Also total FUD, the delegates do not dictate the supply of BitUSD, the traders do. Delegates are only used for the consensus protocol, if they exclude transactions to try to skew the peg then at best they can lose money and get fired...


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: PilotofBTC on August 22, 2014, 07:14:18 PM
Where is the fractional lending? Perhaps I am missing it?

You can borrow bitUSD against XTS (BTSX?). You can only borrow up to 50% of your collateral (XTS) and if the value of the collateral drops the loan (short) is covered.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: Anders on August 22, 2014, 07:14:44 PM
BitSharesX is at the third position now and is skyrocketing: http://coinmarketcap.com/

I must learn more about BitSharesX! It's something about short and long investments.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: instacalm on August 22, 2014, 07:17:17 PM
ChuckOne I seriously facepalmed when I read this topic, is this the new indirect NXT promotion derived from lack of BTS understanding? Not cool


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: Indemnified on August 22, 2014, 07:22:46 PM
Where is the fractional lending? Perhaps I am missing it?

You can borrow bitUSD against XTS (BTSX?). You can only borrow up to 50% of your collateral (XTS) and if the value of the collateral drops the loan (short) is covered.


There is no fractional reserve. OP is posting without any knowledge of how BitsharesX is intended to work. In fact, the experiment is attempting to accomplish exactly the opposite of what OP is suggesting.

Two of the major memes at their website are:

The revolution will not be centralized.

and

Andrew Jackson's "I killed the bank"


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: FandangledGizmo on August 22, 2014, 07:28:46 PM
Is that the same ChuckOne who was posting in the ethereum Bitshares collaboration thread?

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6990.msg95311#msg95311

Pretty hysterical if it is :)

Reeks of desperation.

NXT tried to do a similar full on anti-marketing campaign with Ethereum I think. (Which I'm not an investor in at all.)

Basically anyone that's not NXT is evil :)


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 07:29:18 PM
ChuckOne I seriously facepalmed when I read this topic, is this the new NXT promotion derived from lack of BTS understanding? Not cool


This is the way to understand why we would endorse a system where humans can control the money supply? It will definitely get misused.

This thread is about elucidation of people (and me) to learn what are the properties and the limits of such system and are there dangers to be known by investors.


Statements such as:

The Federal Reserve controls the USD supply.

Replace "Federal Reserve" with "DAC" and add "bit" to "USD"...

The DAC controls the bitUSD supply.

CONGRATULATIONS! YOU'VE JUST INVENTED FEDERAL RESERVE 2.0!

That's the goal. Now what if you had a chance to purchase shares in the Fed in 1920?

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

do not inspire confidence, I have to say. They rather tell me that people endorsing this system do have intentions I am not willing to share.

They do not want to change the status quo but rather repeat history and pull out money from people.


As usual I am concerned, so the best way out I know is asking. :)


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 07:32:47 PM
Is that the same ChuckOne who was posting in the ethereum Bitshares collaboration thread?

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6990.msg95311#msg95311

Yes, he is.

Pretty hysterical if it is :)

Reeks of desperation.

NXT tried to do a similar full on anti-marketing campaign with Ethereum I think. (Which I'm not an investor in at all.)

Basically anyone that's not NXT is evil :)

I do not think that. Why do you think we would want cooperation? Cooperation is only possible between peers with the same intentions. And that is what I am going to question here.

If the intentions are good, we are alright. If not, I got problems to endorse a cooperation.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TaunSew on August 22, 2014, 07:39:46 PM
4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges. 

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: FandangledGizmo on August 22, 2014, 07:44:30 PM
4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges. 

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome :)


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TaunSew on August 22, 2014, 07:46:10 PM
4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges.  

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome :)

That wasn't really my point.  I know that most of NXT volume is Chinese too but not to the same extent.  Maybe only $10K - $15K is non-Chinese volume as of today at $57K volume.

When the Chinese are spending like $2+ million volume on Bitshares (while non-Chinese is like $10K-$15K), it makes us wonder if this is all manipulation or a lot of future Chinese bagholders.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: toast on August 22, 2014, 07:46:43 PM

Statements such as:

...

do not inspire confidence, I have to say. They rather tell me that people endorsing this system do have intentions I am not willing to share.

They do not want to change the status quo but rather repeat history and pull out money from people.


As usual I am concerned, so the best way out I know is asking. :)

"they" here is a random pumping zealot, not a member of the team


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 07:47:43 PM

Statements such as:

...

do not inspire confidence, I have to say. They rather tell me that people endorsing this system do have intentions I am not willing to share.

They do not want to change the status quo but rather repeat history and pull out money from people.


As usual I am concerned, so the best way out I know is asking. :)

"they" here is a random pumping zealot, not a member of the team


Alright. But he seems pretty confident about his "idea".


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: FandangledGizmo on August 22, 2014, 07:48:57 PM
4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges. 

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome :)

That wasn't really my point.  I know that most of NXT volume is Chinese too much not to the same extent.  Maybe only $10K - $15K is non-Chinese volume.

When the Chinese are spending like $2+ million volume on Bitshares (while non-Chinese is like $10K-$15K), it makes us wonder if this is all manipulation or a lot of future Chinese bagholders.


Lol, the reason NXT has consistently low volumes on any exchange when compared to any other crypto is because you had terrible initial distribution. (21 BTC raised & 75 people max or something.) So you have a very low amount circulating compared to other alts.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 07:50:23 PM
Lol, the reason NXT has consistently low volumes on any exchange when compared to any other crypto is because you had terrible initial distribution. (21 BTC raised & 75 people max or something.) So you have a very low amount circulating compared to other alts.

Guys, if you want to talk about prices and volumes, this is off-topic here.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: PilotofBTC on August 22, 2014, 07:55:22 PM
4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges. 

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome :)

Judge individuals, not groups.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: PilotofBTC on August 22, 2014, 07:57:24 PM
Lol, the reason NXT has consistently low volumes on any exchange when compared to any other crypto is because you had terrible initial distribution. (21 BTC raised & 75 people max or something.) So you have a very low amount circulating compared to other alts.

That old saw? Can't the same be said about BTC? NXT is much more distributed now than what it was forever ago. Although, BTC isn't.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TaunSew on August 22, 2014, 07:59:08 PM
4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges.  

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome :)

That wasn't really my point.  I know that most of NXT volume is Chinese too much not to the same extent.  Maybe only $10K - $15K is non-Chinese volume.

When the Chinese are spending like $2+ million volume on Bitshares (while non-Chinese is like $10K-$15K), it makes us wonder if this is all manipulation or a lot of future Chinese bagholders.


Lol, the reason NXT has consistently low volumes on any exchange when compared to any other crypto is because you had terrible initial distribution. (21 BTC raised & 75 people max or something.) So you have a very low amount circulating compared to other alts.

The distribution was of a different scale but there were whales in both Angelshares and PTS and they were transferred over to BTSx.  Much like there are buy threads where people have bought 3%+ of BTSx.

It's irrelevant if a distribution is 75 or 500 as a coin isn't killed by its' scale of users but whether how many whales there are and how much confidence they have in a coin and if there is enough subsequent buyers to buy them out when they dump.  I don't see that being the case here as the main reason for huge BTSx volume is a combination of Chinese funds (there's posts on BTSx proving it) and possible manipulation by the exchanges.

That means the funds are either going to dump as soon as they realize enough profit or the lack of subsequent volume will drive prices down as there'll be no more premium buyers.


BTW - NXT was $90 million in early June and had similar volume.  



Title: Re: [Bitshares] The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: zorco on August 22, 2014, 08:01:08 PM
Actually, I do not speculate on things like those but regarding the recent upsurge of the trust in BitShares I am curious about the opinion and insights of others.

I mean how could anybody in the crypto community would want to mirror the FED?

I cannot believe that to be true.

Precisely.  Anyone who has done their homework and spent any time at all on bitsharestalk.org over the past year knows that BitShares is the antidote to the Federal Reserve's 100+ years of economic atrocities.   :)

But do yourselves a favor and study before you decide if this is the Next Big Thing or not.  

"Knowledge and Understanding is the ultimate Proof of Work."  :)

I am not sure if it is an antidote or just a replacement that changes nothing.

Not sure if you read http://invictus-innovations.com/bitshares-as-dac-bank/

But fractional reserve lending is about robbing the wealth of others. I am not sure if that is in the best interest of the crypto community.
lol so you read that article and you are saying  that : "how could anybody in the crypto community would want to mirror the FED?" ...  I'm sorry but you completely got it wrong. You probably should read it again.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: PilotofBTC on August 22, 2014, 08:08:54 PM
My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: FandangledGizmo on August 22, 2014, 08:10:19 PM
4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges.  

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome :)

That wasn't really my point.  I know that most of NXT volume is Chinese too much not to the same extent.  Maybe only $10K - $15K is non-Chinese volume.

When the Chinese are spending like $2+ million volume on Bitshares (while non-Chinese is like $10K-$15K), it makes us wonder if this is all manipulation or a lot of future Chinese bagholders.


Lol, the reason NXT has consistently low volumes on any exchange when compared to any other crypto is because you had terrible initial distribution. (21 BTC raised & 75 people max or something.) So you have a very low amount circulating compared to other alts.

The distribution was of a different scale but there were whales in both Angelshares and PTS and they were transferred over to BTSx.  Much like there are buy threads where people have bought 3%+ of BTSx.

It's irrelevant if a distribution is 75 or 500 as a coin isn't killed by its' scale of users but whether how many whales there are and how much confidence they have in a coin and if there is enough subsequent buyers to buy them out when they dump.  I don't see that being the case here as the main reason for huge BTSx volume is a combination of Chinese funds (there's posts on BTSx proving it) and manipulation by the exchanges.

That means the funds are either going to dump as soon as they realize enough profit or the lack of subsequent volume will drive prices down as there'll be no more premium buyers.


BTW - NXT was $90 million in early June and had similar volume.  



There could certainly be a major correction after such a rapid climb and I don't reccomend anyone invest in something because it's high/made gains. I also suggest people try to learn about BitAssets on the forum & do their due diligence.

The reasons it's high though imo is that BitAssets are starting Monday probably,  if they work well it's a game changer.

I suggest people try look into them over the weekend or believe ChuckOne and TaunSew and stay in NXT etc. next week for the launch...


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: zorco on August 22, 2014, 08:15:24 PM
My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: PilotofBTC on August 22, 2014, 08:17:48 PM
My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?

Nothing?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 08:19:06 PM
@FandangledGizmo

I do not know what I tell what people could believe. I was asking a question.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TaunSew on August 22, 2014, 08:19:09 PM
4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges.  

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome :)

That wasn't really my point.  I know that most of NXT volume is Chinese too much not to the same extent.  Maybe only $10K - $15K is non-Chinese volume.

When the Chinese are spending like $2+ million volume on Bitshares (while non-Chinese is like $10K-$15K), it makes us wonder if this is all manipulation or a lot of future Chinese bagholders.


Lol, the reason NXT has consistently low volumes on any exchange when compared to any other crypto is because you had terrible initial distribution. (21 BTC raised & 75 people max or something.) So you have a very low amount circulating compared to other alts.

The distribution was of a different scale but there were whales in both Angelshares and PTS and they were transferred over to BTSx.  Much like there are buy threads where people have bought 3%+ of BTSx.

It's irrelevant if a distribution is 75 or 500 as a coin isn't killed by its' scale of users but whether how many whales there are and how much confidence they have in a coin and if there is enough subsequent buyers to buy them out when they dump.  I don't see that being the case here as the main reason for huge BTSx volume is a combination of Chinese funds (there's posts on BTSx proving it) and manipulation by the exchanges.

That means the funds are either going to dump as soon as they realize enough profit or the lack of subsequent volume will drive prices down as there'll be no more premium buyers.


BTW - NXT was $90 million in early June and had similar volume.  



There could certainly be a major correction after such a rapid climb and I don't reccomend anyone invest in something because it's high/made gains. I also suggest people try to learn about BitAssets on the forum & do their due diligence.

The reasons it's high though imo is that BitAssets are starting Monday probably,  if they work well it's a game changer.

I suggest people try look into them over the weekend or believe ChuckOne and TaunSew and stay in NXT etc. next week for the launch...


Oh sure.  I see the rhetoric here.  Yeah don't listen to ChuckOne or TaunSew, sell your house and put it into BitShares.  Get all yo gold and put it into BitShares, this thing is gonna hit $1 trillion in the next 30 days!  Buy now it just went up another 10% in the last minute!!

 Most people have nothing to gain from buying what is obviously a speculative hype bubble at the top of it.  You don't know $hit anymore then I do as bitAssets isn't released until monday.

This is the same 'tard speculative buy that happens in every alternate each time there's 'good news'.

 Dogecoin went up because they sponsored a bunch of Jamaicans at the Olympics and it was all internal users (existing users) buying into what they felt would be subsequent users racing in to buy Doge at a premium  This BitsharesX stuff is no different.  There's more speculators than users in this current market and when the speculator bubble pops there's often a huge correction.



Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 08:19:47 PM
My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?

Nothing?

The idea I cannot go away (at least not that easily) like gold.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TaunSew on August 22, 2014, 08:23:25 PM
My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?

Nothing?

The idea I cannot go away (at least not that easily) like gold.

What intrinsic value does a stock give me?  At least decades ago it used to be all paper and you could burn the paper for heat or worse case scenario consume it if there was no food nearby. 

After all do you know what paper money actually is?  It is Federal Reserve exchange notes, not much different in principle from a lot of stocks out there (especially those that don't issue dividend).


That's a rhetorical answer of course.  Most of the things in our society are technically ponzi schemes based on the scarcity principle.  


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: FandangledGizmo on August 22, 2014, 08:30:01 PM
My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?

Yeah, I can always be wrong on technical descriptions but I think it goes like this.

Bitcoin doesn't have a system for implementing something like BitAssets.
But it's essentially similar to someone with Bitcoin, saying 'this is too volatile' or 'I'd rather hold some of my Bitcoin in an anothe asset that stores and tracks the value of gold.' Unfortunately there hasn't been a decentralised way to do that till now.

At it's simplest level you find a person who wants to short that asset relative to Bitcoin and they lock up some Bitcoin to provide collateral if the market moves against them. Then their collateral is used to cover the trade if it moves against them and vice versa. By doing it as a market when more collateral is needed whenever a new trade is done it backs the asset at any price.

So there's no fractional reserve as claimed by OP. The reserves for the trade are there and so much in fact that BitUSD can never make up more than 30% of the system because of the reserves required to back it.

So it's just an amazing way to store the value of assets in a decentralised way that's never been possible before. It's pretty game changing in countries where capital controls are in place or there are foreign currency restrictions.

So the anonymity, speed & value of BitAssets is huge in a place like China, hence the excitement and interest.
But Argentina and other places like it will probably go crazy for BitAssets too if the system works well.

It's probably being turned on, on Monday. So investing now, means you'll believe it will work. So you should study it more before you invest imo.





Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: zorco on August 22, 2014, 08:33:19 PM
My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?

Nothing?
lol well for this "nothing" people are paying 500$ a piece.  The  intrinsic value is Block chain technology and what you can do with it.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TaunSew on August 22, 2014, 08:36:23 PM
It's not a question of IF something will work (something broken is a problem, though).

It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service.  The NXT asset exchange as far as I can tell works extremely well.  Much like BitSharesX's bitassets may work.  The reality is asset trading just doesn't appeal to the plurality.  It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.

Main reason people went into cryptos was to escape the inflation of the $Fiat. Why do I need to deal with assets and other gimmicks when they already work pretty well themselves in the real world?


It's also a question of IF something is proprietary.  The first mover advantage is great but what stops NXT from doing their own collateral or pegging system or a near-equivalent thereof?  




Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: PilotofBTC on August 22, 2014, 08:41:14 PM
My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?

Nothing?
lol well for this "nothing" people are paying 500$ a piece.  The  intrinsic value is Block chain technology and what you can do with it.

I didn't say BTC didn't have a "value". Just not an intrinsic value.

If you asked my what intrinsic value the USD has, I would probably say, nothing is well. It only has a value because people accept that value. At least Gold has,

1. Scarcity
2. PoW - it takes real time and production to mine gold
3. Intrinsic value, it can be used for things other than as a Fiat Currency. ie, gold is used in manufacturing, etc.

Fiat has 1.

Crypto Coins have 1 and 2.

Gold, silver, diamonds, etc have 1, 2 and 3.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: merockstar on August 22, 2014, 08:45:02 PM
The delegates are not the federal reserve of bitUSD.

The federal reserve is.

A bitUSD is going to track the value of a dollar, therefore it depends on how many dollars the fed prints.

It's purpose? USD with all the properties of a currency on the blockchain!

how long will it be useful? that depends on how long you think USD will be useful.

same for other fiat currencies.

after USD has outlived it's usefulness? BitShares and other cryptos will still be there.

until then?

I think it should be obvious. Businesses can now accept and save a cryptocurrency that carries the stability of the dollar they so dearly value, without having to trust a bank. All the good of Bitcoin, none of the risk until the market cap of Bitcoin, BitShares, Peercoin, or whatever is high enough that the price is stable enough to preclude risk without having to use bitFIAT.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: zorco on August 22, 2014, 08:45:24 PM

The first mover advantage is great but what stops NXT from doing their own collateral or pegging system or a near-equivalent thereof?  


Nobody it stopping them hope they gonna do it !! Nobody stopped people copying  bitcoin either.



It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service

The utility is here : "it's just an amazing way to store the value of assets in a decentralised way that's never been possible before!"

Truth will see how the mass market reacts.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 22, 2014, 08:49:53 PM
It's not a question of IF something will work (something broken is a problem, though).

It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service.  The NXT asset exchange as far as I can tell works extremely well.  Much like BitSharesX's bitassets may work.  The reality is asset trading just doesn't appeal to the plurality.  It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.

Main reason people went into cryptos was to escape the inflation of the $Fiat. Why do I need to deal with assets and other gimmicks when they already work pretty well themselves in the real world?


It's also a question of IF something is proprietary.  The first mover advantage is great but what stops NXT from doing their own collateral or pegging system or a near-equivalent thereof?  

I'm not sure how many times people have to tell you this, but the Nxt asset exchange is not the same thing as Bitshare's bitassets....... they are two completely different concepts. It seems like you still don't understand what bitassets are.

Quote
It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.

It is nothing like reinventing the wheel...

Centralized exchanges suffer from many vulnerabilities/risks/inconveniences including risk of government asset seizure, losing funds due to being hacked, volume and price manipulation, going insolvent due to bad business practices or running ponzi-like schemes, complicated know your customer requirements (it can be hard or take a long time to get "verified"), Etcetra. (I'm sure I'm forgetting something.)

Technically, a decentralized version would suffer from none of these problems.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: PilotofBTC on August 22, 2014, 08:53:28 PM
So is the 2x BTSX that you need to borrow bitUSD based on the USD price of BTSX or the units?

If BTSX is trading at $.50 each, then I need 4 BTSX to borrow 1 bitUSD?

So, the whole bitshares concept could have been done on the NXT blockchain using NXT as the store of value and creating a bitUSD asset. (I assume they didn't cause the devs could create BTSX's for free.)

I wonder too, how close this is to the NXT monetary system. It sounds very similar to me.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TaunSew on August 22, 2014, 08:57:59 PM
It's not a question of IF something will work (something broken is a problem, though).

It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service.  The NXT asset exchange as far as I can tell works extremely well.  Much like BitSharesX's bitassets may work.  The reality is asset trading just doesn't appeal to the plurality.  It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.

Main reason people went into cryptos was to escape the inflation of the $Fiat. Why do I need to deal with assets and other gimmicks when they already work pretty well themselves in the real world?


It's also a question of IF something is proprietary.  The first mover advantage is great but what stops NXT from doing their own collateral or pegging system or a near-equivalent thereof?  

I'm not sure how many times people have to tell you this, but the Nxt asset exchange is not the same thing as Bitshare's bitassets....... they are two completely different concepts. It seems like you still don't understand what bitassets are.

Still going on with that rhetorical dribble, huh?

How about instead of you pushing the burden on proof on me, due to bitassets which isn't released until monday, how about you present the evidence that it's "completely different concepts" without posting a link full of rhetorical bullchit?  We'll know on monday when your 'evidence' doesn't consist of rhetoric and rainbows.


bitassets are assets, end of story.  If your only difference is a collateral and pegging system then that can patched into any asset system.  Sure it may not be the exact 100% same as bitassets but the regular user wouldn't know and if they did wouldn't care.  Not everyone wants a centralized bank like BitShares.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 22, 2014, 09:00:00 PM
So is the 2x BTSX that you need to borrow bitUSD based on the USD price of BTSX or the units?

If BTSX is trading at $.50 each, then I need 4 BTSX to borrow 1 bitUSD?

So, the whole bitshares concept could have been done on the NXT blockchain using NXT as the store of value and creating a bitUSD asset. (I assume they didn't cause the devs could create BTSX's for free.)

I wonder too, how close this is to the NXT monetary system. It sounds very similar to me.

There is nothing stopping Nxt from implementing something similar to bitassets. I think that first mover advantage is important though and BitsharesX has them beat there. Look at how far Bitcoin's first mover advantage has got them, I think we can all agree there are many more technically advanced crypto currencies with more features and improvements over it, yet it is still the king of crypto currencies.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: merockstar on August 22, 2014, 09:00:57 PM
It's not a question of IF something will work (something broken is a problem, though).

It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service.  The NXT asset exchange as far as I can tell works extremely well.  Much like BitSharesX's bitassets may work.  The reality is asset trading just doesn't appeal to the plurality.  It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.

Main reason people went into cryptos was to escape the inflation of the $Fiat. Why do I need to deal with assets and other gimmicks when they already work pretty well themselves in the real world?


It's also a question of IF something is proprietary.  The first mover advantage is great but what stops NXT from doing their own collateral or pegging system or a near-equivalent thereof?  

I'm not sure how many times people have to tell you this, but the Nxt asset exchange is not the same thing as Bitshare's bitassets....... they are two completely different concepts. It seems like you still don't understand what bitassets are.

Still going on with that rhetorical dribble, huh?

How about instead of you pushing the burden on proof on me, due to bitassets which isn't released until monday, how about you present the evidence that it's "completely different concepts" without posting a link full of rhetorical bullchit?  We'll know on monday when your 'evidence' doesn't consist of rhetoric and rainbows.


bitassets are assets, end of story.  If your only difference is a collateral and pegging system then that can patched into any asset system.  Sure it may not be the exact 100% same as bitassets but the regular user wouldn't know.   Nowhere was it written that the NXT asset exchange was the final version.

sure you can patch it into nxt.
not sure why they haven't yet?

but even if you do that, nxt still isn't reaping the benefits of DPOS.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 22, 2014, 09:03:57 PM
It's not a question of IF something will work (something broken is a problem, though).

It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service.  The NXT asset exchange as far as I can tell works extremely well.  Much like BitSharesX's bitassets may work.  The reality is asset trading just doesn't appeal to the plurality.  It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.

Main reason people went into cryptos was to escape the inflation of the $Fiat. Why do I need to deal with assets and other gimmicks when they already work pretty well themselves in the real world?


It's also a question of IF something is proprietary.  The first mover advantage is great but what stops NXT from doing their own collateral or pegging system or a near-equivalent thereof?  

I'm not sure how many times people have to tell you this, but the Nxt asset exchange is not the same thing as Bitshare's bitassets....... they are two completely different concepts. It seems like you still don't understand what bitassets are.

Still going on with that rhetorical dribble, huh?

How about instead of you pushing the burden on proof on me, due to bitassets which isn't released until monday, how about you present the evidence that it's "completely different concepts" without posting a link full of rhetorical bullchit?  We'll know on monday when your 'evidence' doesn't consist of rhetoric and rainbows.


bitassets are assets, end of story.  If your only difference is a collateral and pegging system then that can patched into any asset system.  Sure it may not be the exact 100% same as bitassets but the regular user wouldn't know.   Nowhere was it written that the NXT asset exchange was the final version.

Nxt's asset exchange, as it is currently implemented, relies on trust. Sure, I could create a "NxtUSD" asset on your exchange, but people would need to trust that I am holding the correct amount of collateral and not embezzling and/or using the collateral in improper ways. Bitshares version is decentralized and trustless since it's done on the free market.

You are right, you guys could implement something like bitassets. Why don't you guys go do it instead of hating on a good idea that is needed?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TaunSew on August 22, 2014, 09:08:01 PM
I don't think DPOS really matters (no one cared about it weeks ago).  I read it and didn't appeal to me as I think there are vulnerabilities to it (you can say it is a safer system than NXT but I think the delegate system can be gamed a lot easier than spending millions of $Fiat to acquire 51%+ of NXT.  There isn't even enough NXT for sale.  You'ld probably have to jack up prices at least ten fold to get people to sell and nobody is going to spend $10s of $100s of millions to buy out a newer crypto).



 All the rhetoric and controversy was largely instigated by BTSx who came in with bitasset and are trashing NXT only days after it was "hacked" on a Chinese exchange.  Not implying anything but stranger things have happened.

My concern is something that is being pumped with $millions of $Fiat when it hasn't even been released or tried by the mass crypto-public yet.  We can't even use bitassets yet and yet people are plying on stupid money (unless it's fake volume).


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: chanc3r on August 22, 2014, 09:13:10 PM
So is the 2x BTSX that you need to borrow bitUSD based on the USD price of BTSX or the units?

If BTSX is trading at $.50 each, then I need 4 BTSX to borrow 1 bitUSD?

So, the whole bitshares concept could have been done on the NXT blockchain using NXT as the store of value and creating a bitUSD asset. (I assume they didn't cause the devs could create BTSX's for free.)

I wonder too, how close this is to the NXT monetary system. It sounds very similar to me.

There is nothing stopping Nxt from implementing something similar to bitassets. I think that first mover advantage is important though and BitsharesX has them beat there. Look at how far Bitcoin's first mover advantage has got them, I think we can all agree there are many more technically advanced crypto currencies with more features and improvements over it, yet it is still the king of crypto currencies.

I've seen at least one currency pegged asset so far - this one...

USDbitfnx - Each 1 USDbitfnx asset represents 1 USD deposited at bitfinex.com.
I this case an asset is only put into circulation if there is a real dollar supporting it.. The purpose of this asset is not to provide a dollar equivalent but this or something like it issued on NXT or another Crypto with an asset exchange would achieve a traceable crypto token with a with real $$$ backing the token.

Am I right in understanding that with BTS is there is no guarantee that you can redeem 1 BTSX for 1 USD because you do not need to deposit a USD somewhere to create a BTS in the first place?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TaunSew on August 22, 2014, 09:14:02 PM
It's not a question of IF something will work (something broken is a problem, though).

It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service.  The NXT asset exchange as far as I can tell works extremely well.  Much like BitSharesX's bitassets may work.  The reality is asset trading just doesn't appeal to the plurality.  It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.



If the bitAssets work and bitUSD is pegged to the dollar value of BTSX, then it becomes a game changer. For stocks, commodities, assets, and transfers.

Stocks and commodities will be able to retain their real world dollar value, all while trading on a non-governmental/Wall St. controlled environment.

Yeah but this just the same pegging / collateral system you've (well BTSx people) mentioned a dozen or so times.  It doesn't stop assets from failing or being scams.

It also wouldn't fly on my tax income or depositing into the bank.  "So uhh where did this $7 million come from" "from trading bitUSD and bitMicrosoftstock"


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 09:14:29 PM
but even if you do that, nxt still isn't reaping the benefits of DPOS.

DPoS and TF + Leasing are basically the same. We discusses this issue in length here and somewhere else.

Trust me on that matter, I am technical guy. Besides social implications, that is all that matters to me.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 09:15:22 PM
Am I right in understanding that with BTS is there is no guarantee that you can redeem 1 BTSX for 1 USD because you do not need to deposit a USD somewhere to create a BTS in the first place?

But is that not the very definition of pegging?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 22, 2014, 09:16:16 PM
So is the 2x BTSX that you need to borrow bitUSD based on the USD price of BTSX or the units?

If BTSX is trading at $.50 each, then I need 4 BTSX to borrow 1 bitUSD?

So, the whole bitshares concept could have been done on the NXT blockchain using NXT as the store of value and creating a bitUSD asset. (I assume they didn't cause the devs could create BTSX's for free.)

I wonder too, how close this is to the NXT monetary system. It sounds very similar to me.

There is nothing stopping Nxt from implementing something similar to bitassets. I think that first mover advantage is important though and BitsharesX has them beat there. Look at how far Bitcoin's first mover advantage has got them, I think we can all agree there are many more technically advanced crypto currencies with more features and improvements over it, yet it is still the king of crypto currencies.

I've seen at least one currency pegged asset so far - this one...

USDbitfnx - Each 1 USDbitfnx asset represents 1 USD deposited at bitfinex.com.
I this case an asset is only put into circulation if there is a real dollar supporting it.. The purpose of this asset is not to provide a dollar equivalent but this or something like it issued on NXT or another Crypto with an asset exchange would achieve a traceable crypto token with a with real $$$ backing the token.

You need to trust bitfinex that they hold the correct amount of collateral and don't do any funny business, so it is completely different from bitassets.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: zorco on August 22, 2014, 09:24:48 PM

So, the whole bitshares concept could have been done on the NXT blockchain using NXT as the store of value and creating a bitUSD asset. (I assume they didn't cause the devs could create BTSX's for free.)


Probably but there are a lot of differences still, Bitshare use DPOS you have a transaction speed of 10 sec. You have the delegates,you have dividends that are payde to shareholders  etc.  

"the hole bitshare concept" - Bitshare X is the first DAC  the first of many to come that are using  bitshare toolkit : Bitshare Dns, Bitshare Music, Bitshare Play, follow my Vote etc. My point is Bitshare concept is much more then Bitshare X so there are more differences that you can see at first glance.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 22, 2014, 09:29:54 PM
So is the 2x BTSX that you need to borrow bitUSD based on the USD price of BTSX or the units?

If BTSX is trading at $.50 each, then I need 4 BTSX to borrow 1 bitUSD?
It is based off of the price of BitsharesX relative to the US dollar, as determined by the free market.

You would only need 1 BTSX in the case of BTSX being worth $0.50, as only 2x collateral is needed (I think) if you wanted to borrow 1 bitUSD. If BTSX falls in price and your collateral can no longer cover your 1bitUSD, then your position is released and you lose your collateral proportional to the amount collateral that is required to cover your position.

Am I right in understanding that with BTS is there is no guarantee that you can redeem 1 BTSX for 1 USD because you do not need to deposit a USD somewhere to create a BTS in the first place?
It is determined by consensus on the free market, by some people going long and some people going short on a specific asset. There is no guarantee, but short of manipulation or some flaw, there is no need for a guarantee. The free market will always even out to the true value of the USD as soon as a large amount of orders are placed on both sides, proper volume is established, and skepticism dies down that bitassets will not work for some reason. Because of those reasons, bitUSD will likely be worth less than US dollar until "market equilibrium" (or consensus) is reached. I expect this to happen eventually, but on the release and in the immediate future after the release, bitUSD will likely be worth less than a real US dollar. That is speculation though...


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: PilotofBTC on August 22, 2014, 09:35:38 PM
Am I right in understanding that with BTS is there is no guarantee that you can redeem 1 BTSX for 1 USD because you do not need to deposit a USD somewhere to create a BTS in the first place?

But is that not the very definition of pegging?

I don't think so, there is a difference between pegging the value of something to something else, and saying that it is back by that other thing.

I think the Yuan is pegged to the US$.

Generally, to peg the value to the dollar they would have to buy and sell bitUSD to keep it at a value of $1. That means there is a central bank and the value of bitUSD is being manipulated, right?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 09:40:10 PM
I don't think so, there is a difference between pegging the value of something to something else, and saying that it is back by that other thing.

I think the Yuan is pegged to the US$.

Okay, I see.

Generally, to peg the value to the dollar they would have to buy and sell bitUSD to keep it at a value of $1. That means there is a central bank and the value of bitUSD is being manipulated, right?

I have no idea.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: Tradingriver on August 22, 2014, 09:41:31 PM
you cannot "create" and "promise" to deliver a bitAsset

a bitAsset is only created if 2 people (a buyer and a seller) are trading this asset class. this is the major differencel. It seems you don't get this.

it function like a future market. it is a trustless contract backed with BTSX. This is the reason why it will function.

you are selling bitUSD and i buy it from you. only now the bitAssets are created and backed from your collateral and my collateral.

someone will loose in this trade. its the same function any future exchange on the planet will give you, just without trust and 3 party.....

a trade in bitAsset is like "i will sell you in the future my wheat for price x". But not for the future just now.


sry - you should just take a piece BTSX and watch. if its fails ok, if its works - great. why hate a project you are not involved? maybe you are concerned about your only NXT invest.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: chanc3r on August 22, 2014, 09:55:25 PM

sry - you should just take a piece BTSX and watch. if its fails ok, if its works - great. why hate a project you are not involved? maybe you are concerned about your only NXT invest.

I won't 'take a piece' of anything I don't understand...
And why is it that anyone asking questions about BTSX is being accused of protecting their NXT investment..
Many hold NXT but would be foolish to hold only NXT so many hold other investment also...
Many would be foolish to only invest in crypto and so also hold other FIAT based investments and assets.

If you meet everyone just trying to understand with such accusations then your community will not grow.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: instacalm on August 22, 2014, 10:00:37 PM
I won't 'take a piece' of anything I don't understand...
And why is it that anyone asking questions about BTSX is being accused of protecting their NXT investment..
Many hold NXT but would be foolish to hold only NXT so many hold other investment also...
Many would be foolish to only invest in crypto and so also hold other FIAT based investments and assets.

If you meet everyone just trying to understand with such accusations then your community will not grow.

The problem here is that this thread is attacking BTS(X) based on massive lack of understanding, claiming BitShares would aim at "mirroring the FED", rambling about fractional reserve lending etc. I've been with NXT since December '13 but this is nothing short of embarrassment. As far as I see there were no accusations or attacks coming from the BitShares community initially as this was clearly initiated by a few community members of NXT.

Gladly voices such as CfB's still do exist:
U, guys, waste ur time here attacking our allies instead of fighting against bankers. The fact that attacks became much intense after Bitshares had outpaced Nxt on CoinMarketCap makes me to think that u r in Nxt just to make more fiat. This makes me very upset...


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 22, 2014, 10:06:32 PM
Am I right in understanding that with BTS is there is no guarantee that you can redeem 1 BTSX for 1 USD because you do not need to deposit a USD somewhere to create a BTS in the first place?

But is that not the very definition of pegging?

I don't think so, there is a difference between pegging the value of something to something else, and saying that it is back by that other thing.

Exactly. That is bitassets versus the Nxt asset exchange (as it exists today).

Generally, to peg the value to the dollar they would have to buy and sell bitUSD to keep it at a value of $1. That means there is a central bank and the value of bitUSD is being manipulated, right?

BitUSD can be manipulated in the same way anything traded on the free market can be manipulated (Bitcoin, stocks, Etcetra.) In Bitcoin's case, there is financial incentive for people to trade against manipulation due to things like arbitrage or perceived value by the public for instance. With bitUSD, the incentive for people to trade against manipulation is that they will likely make a profit on it by going long or short against the manipulative trader(s).

If a bad actor tries to manipulate BitUSD by dumping on the bitUSD market below the value of the actual value of the dollar, then there is an economic incentive for someone to scoop up those cheap bitUSDs. They will likely profit from the inevitable price swing that will incur when the honest actors come in and bring the bitUSD market back it equilibrium with the actual value of the US dollar. The opposite incentive is there if someone tries to pump the value of bitUSD greater than the actual value of a dollar.

As soon as market depth is established, a certain amount of volume is achieved, and skepticism bitassets will work dies down, bitUSD should very closely resemble the value of the US dollar.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: FandangledGizmo on August 22, 2014, 10:10:38 PM
If you meet everyone just trying to understand with such accusations then your community will not grow.

The problem here is that this thread is attacking BTSX based on massive lack of understanding, claiming BitShares would aim at "mirroring the FED", rambling about fractional reserve lending etc. I've been with NXT since December '13 but this is nothing short of embarrassment. As far as I see there were no accusations or attacks coming from the BitShares community as this was clearly initiated by ChuckOne.

I think questions and due diligence are a good thing, but yeah the provocative thread title, picture and baseless content by someone with some standing in NXT is quite embarrassing.

I used to hold a lot of NXT and still thinks it's quite good. I've sold recently as there has been very limited demand since the bter hack, which wasn't their fault at all. I won't let a couple of bad apples change my opinion of NXT though and may buy back a little stake at a later stage depending.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 10:13:43 PM
If a bad actor tries to manipulate the BitUSD market by dumping on the bitUSD market way below the value of the actual value of the dollar. Then there is an economic incentive for someone to scoop up those cheap bitUSDs, and profit from the inevitable price swing that will incur when the honest actors come in and bring the bitUSD market back it equilibrium with the actual value of the US dollar. The opposite incentive is there if someone tries to pump the value of bitUSD greater than the actual value of a dollar.

As soon as market depth is established, a certain amount of volume is achieved, and skepticism bitassets will work dies down, bitUSD should very closely resemble the value of the US dollar.

Now, I think I understand a bit.

But that raises the next question: why should a bad actor act bad? I assume because he gains something from it, right?

If so, why do honest actors do not act bad? What is their gain?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: chanc3r on August 22, 2014, 10:16:05 PM
If you meet everyone just trying to understand with such accusations then your community will not grow.

The problem here is that this thread is attacking BTSX based on massive lack of understanding, claiming BitShares would aim at "mirroring the FED" etc. I've been with NXT since December '13 but this is nothing short of embarrassment. As far as I see there were no accusations or attacks coming from the BitShares community as this was clearly initiated by ChuckOne.
Maybe I see questioning differently - I don't see this as embarrassing and as threads go this one is actually asking questions not just making accusations.

I see this as useful in understanding and I agree the questions could be asked more considerately but these forums are often short on that.

There are not just nxtTers in this thread,although as you point out one started it and in fact the discussion on nxtForum has been more considered.

It is also becoming clear that BTSX is just one implementation from the toolkit so its not BitShares that is being questioned but this specific implementation of pegging to the USD as I understand it.

This kind of discussion brings visibility and with visibility people will do their research not just on these posts but read some of the excellent material at the end of the bitShares links and make up their own mind - so I believe its always best to welcome these debates if you want something to be explored and through that process gain acceptance.

There is plenty of room for more innovative platforms that are not simply carbon copies of BTC and there is no need for either community to attack the other...


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: instacalm on August 22, 2014, 10:18:11 PM
I think questions and due diligence are a good thing, but yeah the provocative thread title, picture and baseless content by someone with some standing in NXT is quite embarrassing.
+1

I used to hold a lot of NXT and still thinks it's quite good. I've sold recently as there has been very limited demand since the bter hack, which wasn't their fault at all. I won't let a couple of rotten apples change my opinion of NXT though and may buy back a little stake at a later stage depending.

I can only agree with you. I hold some and sold some. NXT indeed is a great project, as is BitShares, and attacks such as these are extremely superfluous. If anything, one, as a rational being interested in this field of technology, ought to be enthusiastic to learn more about the concepts behind the very projects that shape this field instead of spreading counterproductive negativity, attacking and name-calling...


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 10:22:54 PM
If a bad actor tries to manipulate the BitUSD market by dumping on the bitUSD market way below the value of the actual value of the dollar. Then there is an economic incentive for someone to scoop up those cheap bitUSDs, and profit from the inevitable price swing that will incur when the honest actors come in and bring the bitUSD market back it equilibrium with the actual value of the US dollar. The opposite incentive is there if someone tries to pump the value of bitUSD greater than the actual value of a dollar.

As soon as market depth is established, a certain amount of volume is achieved, and skepticism bitassets will work dies down, bitUSD should very closely resemble the value of the US dollar.

Now, I think I understand a bit.

But that raises the next question: why should a bad actor act bad? I assume because he gains something from it, right?

If so, why do honest actors do not act bad? What is their gain?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: Tradingriver on August 22, 2014, 10:24:24 PM
in any market you cannot prevent manipulation!

look at the huge Gold market. the big banks manipulated the price for years, so in the small coin markets (a total market cap of 6.8 billion USD) is manipulation really cheap. the nice point in blockchain technology - we will hopefully see this kind of manipulation much earlier.

i am really happy about this kind of threads, because the only lacking point in BTSX is the "none" existence in forums like bitcointalk.org . we are lacking in marketing so i take this as an opportunity to get some people interested in BTSX.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 10:26:30 PM
source https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bitshares-the-great-satan-on-the-blockchain/msg89646/#msg89646

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=752258.msg8492118#msg8492118 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=752258.msg8492118#msg8492118)
Quote
The problem here is that this thread is attacking BTSX based on massive lack of understanding, claiming BitShares would aim at "mirroring the FED" etc. I've been with NXT since December '13 but this is nothing short of embarrassment. As far as I see there were no accusations or attacks coming from the BitShares community as this was clearly initiated by ChuckOne.

It was initiated by 2Kool4Skewl.

Seriously, I'm not the only one that thinks BitShares is "mirroring" the Federal Reserve.  Even their own users believe they are "investing in the Fed in 1920."

They are like a mini-Fed and their delegates are like mini-FOMC members.

In order to clear that up.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 10:30:36 PM
in any market you cannot prevent manipulation!

look at the huge Gold market. the big banks manipulated the price for years, so in the small coin markets (a total market cap of 6.8 billion USD) is manipulation really cheap. the nice point in blockchain technology - we will hopefully see this kind of manipulation much earlier.

I think that thread is not about manipulation but understand how this pegging is supposed to work (at least for me).

2Kool4Skewl is further interested in the issue of delegates being like mini-FOMC members of a mini-FED. I personally have no real imagination about those concepts but I would be good for me and others to know before investing, do you not think so?

i am really happy about this kind of threads, because the only lacking point in BTSX is the "none" existence in forums like bitcointalk.org . we are lacking in marketing so i take this as an opportunity to get some people interested in BTSX.

Ah, you, too? ;)


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 22, 2014, 10:34:45 PM
If a bad actor tries to manipulate the BitUSD market by dumping on the bitUSD market way below the value of the actual value of the dollar. Then there is an economic incentive for someone to scoop up those cheap bitUSDs, and profit from the inevitable price swing that will incur when the honest actors come in and bring the bitUSD market back it equilibrium with the actual value of the US dollar. The opposite incentive is there if someone tries to pump the value of bitUSD greater than the actual value of a dollar.

As soon as market depth is established, a certain amount of volume is achieved, and skepticism bitassets will work dies down, bitUSD should very closely resemble the value of the US dollar.

Now, I think I understand a bit.

But that raises the next question: why should a bad actor act bad? I assume because he gains something from it, right?

If so, why do honest actors do not act bad? What is their gain?

It works much the same that it does in any free market. Manipulators are taking a risk by manipulating the market. The manipulators are taking a risk that the public recognizes the manipulation and the market immediately corrects, causing the manipulator to lose a considerable amount of money. If they do not recognize this manipulation and see it as a normal market movement, then they stand to profit from it.

You question as to what would someone stand to gain from manipulating the bitUSD market is exactly why I think bitassets will work, because there is really no incentive at all. Unlike Bitcoin being traded in the free market, people can easily look up exactly what the value of the US dollar (or Btcoin, gold, etcetra) is relative to BitsharesX by comparing the current market value of the BitsharesX/USD (or BitsharesX/BTC/USD) trading pairs on other exchanges. It will be much easier to detect manipulation of a bitasset when you know almost exactly what that asset is worth in the real world markets from thing like data aggregators and market feeds which are sourced directly from those markets.

You cannot prevent manipulation in the gold, Bitcoin, Or FIAT markets, but the fact it will be so easy to tell if bitassets do not equal the current value of a real world commodity is the reason why I think it is unlikely to be manipulated. Manipulation will likely be very unprofitable in bitassets due to the obvious value of the commodities traded which people can get from many 3rd party services and data feeds which come directly from those markets. Therefore, bitassets will closely resemble the value of their real world counterparts.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: PilotofBTC on August 22, 2014, 10:38:35 PM
Am I right in understanding that with BTS is there is no guarantee that you can redeem 1 BTSX for 1 USD because you do not need to deposit a USD somewhere to create a BTS in the first place?

But is that not the very definition of pegging?

I don't think so, there is a difference between pegging the value of something to something else, and saying that it is back by that other thing.

Exactly. That is bitassets versus the Nxt asset exchange (as it exists today).

Generally, to peg the value to the dollar they would have to buy and sell bitUSD to keep it at a value of $1. That means there is a central bank and the value of bitUSD is being manipulated, right?

BitUSD can be manipulated in the same way anything traded on the free market can be manipulated (Bitcoin, stocks, Etcetra.) In Bitcoin's case, there is financial incentive for people to trade against manipulation due to things like arbitrage or perceived value by the public for instance. With bitUSD, the incentive for people to trade against manipulation is that they will likely make a profit on it by going long or short against the manipulative trader(s).

If a bad actor tries to manipulate BitUSD by dumping on the bitUSD market below the value of the actual value of the dollar, then there is an economic incentive for someone to scoop up those cheap bitUSDs. They will likely profit from the inevitable price swing that will incur when the honest actors come in and bring the bitUSD market back it equilibrium with the actual value of the US dollar. The opposite incentive is there if someone tries to pump the value of bitUSD greater than the actual value of a dollar.

As soon as market depth is established, a certain amount of volume is achieved, and skepticism bitassets will work dies down, bitUSD should very closely resemble the value of the US dollar.

BTW: I am not attacking, just asking question and trying to understand.

So, you are saying that bitUSD is only pegged to the dollar by the market rather than by some central entity like Bitshares corp or whatever. If the expectation is that the market will keep the value of bitUSD equivalent to the $ I can't see how that will happen. The Chinese government and bank is what keeps the Yuan pegged to the $, not the market.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 10:46:15 PM
It works much the same that it does in any free market. Manipulators are taking a risk by manipulating the market. The manipulators are taking a risk that the public recognizes the manipulation and the market immediately corrects, causing the manipulator to lose a considerable amount of money. If they do not recognize this manipulation and see it as a normal market movement, then they stand to profit from it.

You question as to what would someone stand to gain from manipulating the bitUSD market is exactly why I think bitassets will work, because there is really no incentive at all. Unlike Bitcoin being traded in the free market, people can easily look up exactly what the value of the US dollar (or Btcoin, gold, etcetra) is relative to BitsharesX by comparing the current market value of the BitsharesX/USD (or BitsharesX/BTC/USD) trading pairs on other exchanges. It will be much easier to detect manipulation of a bitasset when you know almost exactly what that asset is worth in the real world markets from thing like data aggregators and market feeds.

You cannot prevent manipulation in the gold, Bitcoin, Or FIAT markets, but the fact it will be so easy to tell if bitassets do not equal the current value of a real world commodity is the reason why I think it is unlikely to be manipulated. Manipulation will likely be very unprofitable in bitassets due to the obvious value of the commodities traded which people can get from many 3rd party services and data feeds which come directly from those markets. Therefore, bitassets will closely resemble the value of their real world counterparts.

Ah, wait. You are talking about manipulation... Let me get this straight:

1) bitUSD is pegged to the USD basically means that traders are encouraged to trade bitUSDs according to the prices of real-world goods and services in USD

2) corrections are done by: traders simply agree on how much a bitUSD should be worth by looking at the prices of those real-world goods and services in USD

3) therefore, speculators speculating on higher or lower prices of bitUSD are not able to bring down or up the price BECAUSE the honest majority of the traders simply agreed on a fixed price

=> there will be huge sell and buy wall right below and right above the agreed upon price

Is that correct?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 10:50:01 PM
If not 100% correct, is it at least a starting point to understand how trader-pegging should work?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 22, 2014, 10:54:53 PM
BTW: I am not attacking, just asking question and trying to understand.

So, you are saying that bitUSD is only pegged to the dollar by the market rather than by some central entity like Bitshares corp or whatever. If the expectation is that the market will keep the value of bitUSD equivalent to the $ I can't see how that will happen. The Chinese government and bank is what keeps the Yuan pegged to the $, not the market.

No problem, this is new territory for most of us, we are all learning. I am not sure I understand it fully myself, but I think I have a pretty good idea of how it works. Anyone feel free to jump in and correct me if I am wrong about something.

Exactly, bitUSD is pegged to the US dollar by the market. The expectation certainly is that it will very closely resemble the value of the US dollar. bitUSD will closely resemble the value of the US dollar because people will be able to easily profit from it if it doesn't. The incentive for people to go long or short if someone is trying to manipulate the market will keep it in check. People like money, even more so, they like to make easy money. It will be very easy to see if someone is manipulating bitUSD and someone can come in and profit from that attempt of manipulation. I think going long or short on bitUSD when someone is obviously manipulating the price would be really easy money.

I suppose there is one potential thing that could screw it up, and that is if someone had much more money than the market could bare IE. if the bad actors had more money than the good actors. I think this becomes less of a problem as deep market depth is established, and I don't even think there would be an economic incentive to do so as the market would eventually eat it all up. I'm not so sure about this point though.. I'll have to think about it more, but I am certain when I say it won't be nearly as big of a deal as market depth is established.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 10:58:21 PM
@CoinHoarder

You said "bitUSD will closely resemble the value of the US dollar because people will be able to easily profit from it if it doesn't."

Could you elaborate more on this?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 22, 2014, 10:59:29 PM
It works much the same that it does in any free market. Manipulators are taking a risk by manipulating the market. The manipulators are taking a risk that the public recognizes the manipulation and the market immediately corrects, causing the manipulator to lose a considerable amount of money. If they do not recognize this manipulation and see it as a normal market movement, then they stand to profit from it.

You question as to what would someone stand to gain from manipulating the bitUSD market is exactly why I think bitassets will work, because there is really no incentive at all. Unlike Bitcoin being traded in the free market, people can easily look up exactly what the value of the US dollar (or Btcoin, gold, etcetra) is relative to BitsharesX by comparing the current market value of the BitsharesX/USD (or BitsharesX/BTC/USD) trading pairs on other exchanges. It will be much easier to detect manipulation of a bitasset when you know almost exactly what that asset is worth in the real world markets from thing like data aggregators and market feeds.

You cannot prevent manipulation in the gold, Bitcoin, Or FIAT markets, but the fact it will be so easy to tell if bitassets do not equal the current value of a real world commodity is the reason why I think it is unlikely to be manipulated. Manipulation will likely be very unprofitable in bitassets due to the obvious value of the commodities traded which people can get from many 3rd party services and data feeds which come directly from those markets. Therefore, bitassets will closely resemble the value of their real world counterparts.

Ah, wait. You are talking about manipulation... Let me get this straight:

1) bitUSD is pegged to the USD basically means that traders are encouraged to trade bitUSDs according to the prices of real-world goods and services in USD

2) corrections are done by: traders simply agree on how much a bitUSD should be worth by looking at the prices of those real-world goods and services in USD

3) therefore, speculators speculating on higher or lower prices of bitUSD are not able to bring down or up the price BECAUSE the honest majority of the traders simply agreed on a fixed price

=> there will be huge sell and buy wall right below and right above the agreed upon price

Is that correct?

Yes, that seems correct. That is how the correct value of a bitasset is determined, and is likely to resemble the true value of that asset in the real world.

There is another layer on top of that though, as people can bet on the price rising or falling relative to the value of BitsharesX, and make money that way as well. So, it is not only for determining the value of an asset in the real world, but it is also for people whom would like to profit on market movements.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: robrigo on August 22, 2014, 11:02:09 PM
BitUSD Trading Guide by the BitShares communiy for the interested: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fVyf5oVsLZCrjkptNi2I-GPldIp-QM3vmTKpyy_2ZVU/edit


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: Gentso1 on August 22, 2014, 11:10:25 PM
I spent a 1 hour the other night to learn about nxt. The assets are back by reputation alone.......that doesn't work for me

Our asset's are backed by that ever growing market cap of btsx (right now$ 55,612,604) it is this that is used as collateral to "print" the bitUSD.

Think of bitUSD as a alt coin that holds its value to the dollar and is backed by shares in btsx.

the Bitshares forums are a mess but the people you find their genuinely want to help. Take the time to read and ask questions thats all most of us want.   


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 11:16:23 PM
I spent a 1 hour the other night to learn about nxt. The assets are back by reputation alone.......that doesn't work for me

Our asset's are backed by that ever growing market cap of btsx (right now$ 55,612,604) it is this that is used as collateral to "print" the bitUSD.

Think of bitUSD as a alt coin that holds its value to the dollar and is backed by shares in btsx.

the Bitshares forums are a mess but the people you find their genuinely want to help. Take the time to read and ask questions thats all most of us want.   

Hmm. I think I will need to sleep one night or two over this. That system looks a bit fragile if you ask me.

(btw. there will be NXT backed assets shortly in the next major feature release, so, not back by reputation alone anymore.)


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: From Above on August 22, 2014, 11:19:14 PM
LOL nxt-noobs hating on dem bitsharez-noobs

what a festival ! where is the beer and popcorn.

~CfA~


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 22, 2014, 11:29:46 PM
@CoinHoarder

You said "bitUSD will closely resemble the value of the US dollar because people will be able to easily profit from it if it doesn't."

Could you elaborate more on this?

If the value of 1 bitUSD is less than the value of 1 actual US dollar, then it would probably be an easy decision to buy bitUSD above the current bitUSD market price (closer to the actual real life value of the US dollar.) When the bitUSD market corrects to match your position, you will have profited off of that price movement, and you end up with more BitsharesX than you started with.

If the value of 1 bitUSD is more than the value of 1 actual US dollar, then it would probably be an easy decision to buy bitUSD below the current bitUSD market price (closer to the actual real life value of the US dollar.) When the bitUSD corrects to match your position, you will have profited off of that price movement, and you end up with more BitsharesX than you started with.

BitUSD Trading Guide by the BitShares communiy for the interested: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fVyf5oVsLZCrjkptNi2I-GPldIp-QM3vmTKpyy_2ZVU/edit

I think Daniel explains the dynamics of trading better than I can in this document. I have not read it yet, so I apologize if I have spread any misconceptions. I do not think I have though... he just explains pretty much the same things in a different way.

For instance... I already learned something I did not realize. After quickly scanning over the document, it seems there is another protection from manipulation built into the market:

Quote
Maximum Price Movement
The ability to short and the price at which margin calls are executed is limited by a moving average of the price.  There is a maximum rate of change on this price equal to 0.09% every 10 seconds.  This averages out to about 33% per hour.   These price restrictions do not apply to those selling BitUSD for BTSX, only for those looking to short or for margin calls.   The purpose of these restrictions is to give the market time to react to potential manipulation attacks.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 11:34:20 PM
@CoinHoarder

You said "bitUSD will closely resemble the value of the US dollar because people will be able to easily profit from it if it doesn't."

Could you elaborate more on this?

If the value of 1 bitUSD is less than the value of 1 actual US dollar, then it would probably be an easy decision to buy bitUSD above the current bitUSD market price (closer to the actual real life value of the US dollar.) When the bitUSD market corrects to match your position, you will have profited off of that price movement, and you end up with more BitsharesX than you started with.

If the value of 1 bitUSD is more than the value of 1 actual US dollar, then it would probably be an easy decision to buy bitUSD below the current bitUSD market price (closer to the actual real life value of the US dollar.) When the bitUSD corrects to match your position, you will have profited off of that price movement, and you end up with more BitsharesX than you started with.

This assumes that the correction happens.

Why should it happen?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 11:36:29 PM
Quote
Maximum Price Movement
The ability to short and the price at which margin calls are executed is limited by a moving average of the price.  There is a maximum rate of change on this price equal to 0.09% every 10 seconds.  This averages out to about 33% per hour.   These price restrictions do not apply to those selling BitUSD for BTSX, only for those looking to short or for margin calls.   The purpose of these restrictions is to give the market time to react to potential manipulation attacks.

This assumes that people use the internal trading mechanism, right?

If they trade bitUSD and BTSX against each other on centralized exchanges, nothing will protect the price from fluctuating.

Are those assumptions correct?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: From Above on August 22, 2014, 11:40:42 PM
chuckone are u fucksing stupid or why do u have to ask everything like spoon by spoon when u can just read it all on dem web resources ?  where do u think the coinhorder man got his knowledge from asking him non stop ?

do u have some basic brains capable of reading ?


~CfA~


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 22, 2014, 11:46:49 PM
@CoinHoarder

You said "bitUSD will closely resemble the value of the US dollar because people will be able to easily profit from it if it doesn't."

Could you elaborate more on this?

If the value of 1 bitUSD is less than the value of 1 actual US dollar, then it would probably be an easy decision to buy bitUSD above the current bitUSD market price (closer to the actual real life value of the US dollar.) When the bitUSD market corrects to match your position, you will have profited off of that price movement, and you end up with more BitsharesX than you started with.

If the value of 1 bitUSD is more than the value of 1 actual US dollar, then it would probably be an easy decision to buy bitUSD below the current bitUSD market price (closer to the actual real life value of the US dollar.) When the bitUSD corrects to match your position, you will have profited off of that price movement, and you end up with more BitsharesX than you started with.

This assumes that the correction happens.

Why should it happen?

It will correct because traders can profit off of the price correcting, and the people trying to manipulate the price will lose money as long as the majority of trading volume is not manipulating the price. By trying to manipulate the market, you are betting that others will follow your lead which is quite risky. If others don't try to manipulate the market and bitUSD stays close to the value of a US dollar, any manipulator will lose money.

Please read that document if you haven't, it explains a lot of this in detail. I need to step away for a while.. my fingers hurt  my dog needs to go on a walk. :) bbl


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: instacalm on August 22, 2014, 11:47:39 PM
my fingers hurt  my dog needs to go on a walk. :) bbl

Are you typing it all on your iPad again? ;)


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 22, 2014, 11:49:53 PM
my fingers hurt  my dog needs to go on a walk. :) bbl

Are you typing it all on your iPad again? ;)

It ran out of battery a hour ago rofl, but I was. ;D

Maybe someone else can help me out here. ;)

Am I doing a decent job so far in explaining this? I admit I am not entirely sure how bitassets will work either, but it mostly makes sense I think. Having this conversation has helped me too.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 22, 2014, 11:55:40 PM
my fingers hurt  my dog needs to go on a walk. :) bbl

Are you typing it all on your iPad again? ;)

It ran out of battery a hour ago rofl, but I was. ;D

Maybe someone else can help me out here. ;)

Am I doing a decent job so far in explaining this? I admit I am not entirely sure how bitassets will work either, but it mostly makes sense I think. Having this conversation has helped me too.

Thank you for putting up those pieces of information here. I think they gave us all a decent understanding what BitShares is about.

My assessment still is: it looks like a very complex and fragile system. If it ever gets out of balance, it blows up.

Furthermore, all of this assumes that people use the internal trading system and do not transfer bitUSD or BTSX via "normal" exchanges.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: PilotofBTC on August 23, 2014, 12:00:16 AM
I spent a 1 hour the other night to learn about nxt. The assets are back by reputation alone.......that doesn't work for me

It depends on the asset. Some are a representation of something, like the NxtGenMining assets. Each NxtGenGHS asset is 1 GH/s of SHA256 hashing power represented by real mining hardware. The asset pays "dividends" in the form of NXT purchased with the mined coin minus the fee to cover the hosting/electricity overhead.

Some are a token of value elsewhere... like the bitfinex_usd asset which is backed by a bitfinex account that is audited monthly. Also the mgwCOIN assets that are a representation of the actual coins help in the mgw wallets secured by multi-signature addresses.

Some are like mutual funds that hold other assets.

I think the hope is that some will become registered securities of real companies. But, basically, any Stock is similar... there are penny stocks and blue chips. You have to do your due diligence.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: PilotofBTC on August 23, 2014, 12:02:12 AM
LOL nxt-noobs hating on dem bitsharez-noobs

what a festival ! where is the beer and popcorn.

~CfA~

I don't see any hating here. You're trying to stir the pot rather than contributing something of value with your post.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: From Above on August 23, 2014, 12:05:19 AM
LOL nxt-noobs hating on dem bitsharez-noobs

what a festival ! where is the beer and popcorn.

~CfA~

I don't see any hating here. You're trying to stir the pot rather than contributing something of value with your post.

ok I see a picture of the bitshares creator with ben bernanke in the first posts with ben saying his young 'apprentice' unleashing a scam and the title of the thread is The Great Satan on the Blockchain

ROFL DO U suffer from HARDCORE DELUSION dude?  if this is not an extreme attack then id call it crypto cold war.  its obvious the nxt puppet is envying the bitshares puppetry like a dork so he wants to ridicule it LOL... to me this is entertainment cuz I just laugh at both

~CfA~


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: From Above on August 23, 2014, 12:09:14 AM
ILL QUOTE THIS NOW in case the fucking nxt puppet wants to delete the crap hes postin LOL

~CfA~

source https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bitshares-the-great-satan-on-the-blockchain/


Kinda like how a $100 bill is worth $100 just because everybody believes it to be so? Exactly. ;)

The power of bitUSD is that it does not have a fixed supply. The BTSX network "prints" as much bitUSD as is necessary to keep the price of bitUSD below that of fiatUSD, and destroys as much as necessary to keep the price above that of fiatUSD. Hence, the price of bitUSD can be neither above nor below that of fiatUSD.

It's very simple: fixed supply = variable price, and fixed price = variable supply.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

The Federal Reserve controls the USD supply.

Replace "Federal Reserve" with "DAC" and add "bit" to "USD"...

The DAC controls the bitUSD supply.

CONGRATULATIONS! YOU'VE JUST INVENTED FEDERAL RESERVE 2.0!

That's the goal. Now what if you had a chance to purchase shares in the Fed in 1920?

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Bitshares is self-admittedly an attempt to recreate a central banking scheme in crypto form.  Bitshares' DPoS is a centralized consensus system that relies upon a set number of nodes achieving consensus.

Quote
In practice BitShares isn't a distributed system, it is more like coordinated synchronized time shared centralized system.  -bytemaster

These 101 delegates are responsible for including transactions on the bitshares network.  Now think about this.  The DAC attempts to set monetary policy for the "bit assets" depending on the market price.  If there are more sellers, the DAC destroys bit assets.  If there are more buyers, the DAC prints more bit assets.  So, whoever controls the transactions included on the blockchain controls the DAC or monetary policy that the DAC enacts on the entire network.  Who controls the transactions included on the blockchain?  The 101 delegates.

How does the Federal Reserve set the monetary policy for the US dollar?

Federal Reserve monetary policy is decided by the FOMC (Federal Open Market Committee).  What is the FOMC?

Quote
It is this Federal Reserve committee which makes key decisions about interest rates and the growth of the United States money supply. -Wikipedia

The Federal Reserve achieves consensus on its monetary policy via a committee made up of delegates.

Bitshares = "Federal Reserve 2.0"
Bitshares' delegates = FOMC


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: PilotofBTC on August 23, 2014, 12:13:42 AM
Ever heard of hyperbole? He was just stating his understanding... the thread was very civil discussion, well, until now I guess. Continue your ad hominem attacks.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: From Above on August 23, 2014, 12:17:03 AM
Ever heard of hyperbole? He was just stating his understanding... the thread was very civil discussion, well, until now I guess. Continue your ad hominem attacks.

dont worry my little nifty boy i'll do my best to find a pic of urs and chuckone nifty faces and post it saying u r a satan on the blockchain unleashing a ben bernanke scam cuz i dont understand ur Nxt Coin ROFLMAO

lower than low the nxt bitches.  will u ever learn ?  ben bernanke prob did more than u ever will hahaha :D

~CfA~


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: Gentso1 on August 23, 2014, 12:19:13 AM
I spent a 1 hour the other night to learn about nxt. The assets are back by reputation alone.......that doesn't work for me

It depends on the asset. Some are a representation of something, like the NxtGenMining assets. Each NxtGenGHS asset is 1 GH/s of SHA256 hashing power represented by real mining hardware. The asset pays "dividends" in the form of NXT purchased with the mined coin minus the fee to cover the hosting/electricity overhead.

Some are a token of value elsewhere... like the bitfinex_usd asset which is backed by a bitfinex account that is audited monthly. Also the mgwCOIN assets that are a representation of the actual coins help in the mgw wallets secured by multi-signature addresses.

Some are like mutual funds that hold other assets.

I think the hope is that some will become registered securities of real companies. But, basically, any Stock is similar... there are penny stocks and blue chips. You have to do your due diligence.


Your right. I even saw that a user created a company that will do audits on other users assets to make sure that they really have what they say they have. Nxt also has a leg up in the fact that its got some age to it and has taken it's knocks so to speak. The system isn't bad its just different.

At Bitshares, once the platform was released the pace has been fast, very fast. I have found the people to have a unique blend of tech know how coupled with a (what I believe) great understanding of economics. Monday will tell us alot but I think even if it is not a successful run that the problems will be corrected.

But alas this is all speculation. We all bet on the platform we *think* will be the new big thing. Do some reading on the bitshares forum I know I gathered a few ideas from the nxt forum.  


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TaunSew on August 23, 2014, 12:20:52 AM
Yes it's a Cold War.  Bitshares is Chinese Communists vs the free NXT world.  NXT does not know there is a war and hence they are losing.  Who do you think has been DOSing and hacking NXT over and over?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: From Above on August 23, 2014, 12:23:26 AM
Yes it's a Cold War.  Bitshares is Chinese Communists vs the free NXT world.  NXT does not know there is a war and hence they are losing.  Who do you think has been DOSing and hacking NXT over and over?

i dont give a care if its called nxt or bitshares its all capitalism 2.0 in favor of riches like me so i like it.  as long as it makes great fiat money in my bank account im all for it.  just funny to see the dorks raging over their penny investments fearing the shit out of it like Chuck one lol

~CfA~


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: Spoetnik on August 23, 2014, 12:51:04 AM
LOL nxt-noobs hating on dem bitsharez-noobs

what a festival ! where is the beer and popcorn.

~CfA~

PIPE DOWN INFIDEL


Title: Communism or Facisism is better than any US Democracy
Post by: Spoetnik on August 23, 2014, 12:55:57 AM
Yes it's a Cold War.  Bitshares is Chinese Communists vs the free NXT world.  NXT does not know there is a war and hence they are losing.  Who do you think has been DOSing and hacking NXT over and over?


sorry but i would take Chinese communism over USA free world freedom enforced with the barrel of a machine gun..
wonder why Russia and China are clamping down in the news over various US exports ?
the world is thoroughly fed up with USA no.1 round eye and now they are doing something about it !

by the way the only thing the USA is no.1 at is Chinese imports.. and debt.. and being the worlds most problematic war monger.. and ...

Ya let's model a digital currency on a failed American economy  ::)


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CoinHoarder on August 23, 2014, 01:04:41 AM
Hmm. I think I will need to sleep one night or two over this. That system looks a bit fragile if you ask me.

(btw. there will be NXT backed assets shortly in the next major feature release, so, not back by reputation alone anymore.)

How is Nxt planning on doing this? I have a feeling it may be the same as BitsharesX's back up plan.. getting the average of a bunch of market data feeds.

If it is a different approach, could you explain how you guys are planning on doing it?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: FandangledGizmo on August 23, 2014, 01:23:35 AM
Hmm. I think I will need to sleep one night or two over this. That system looks a bit fragile if you ask me.

(btw. there will be NXT backed assets shortly in the next major feature release, so, not back by reputation alone anymore.)

How is Nxt planning on doing this? I have a feeling it may be the same as BitsharesX's back up plan.. getting the average of a bunch of market data feeds.

If it is a different approach, could you explain how you guys are planning on doing it?

I think theirs isn't even that, it's just a very basic implementation of collateral to give a base value to a user issued asset.

So an issuer can lock up some NXT when they create a user issued assets which 'backs' it.

Like someone on their system can make 'Y' Asset, with a 100 total tokens and lock up 100 NXT in the beginning, then you know each 'Y' is at least redeemable for 1 NXT. Something like that.

I guess it can help seed or give some confidence in a new user issued asset or something?



Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: bytemaster on August 23, 2014, 04:10:34 AM
It is quite entertaining seeing what people are saying about me.  As someone who believes in finding free market solutions to secure our life, liberty, and property and whom is more anarcho-capitalist than anyone I have ever met it is absolutely hilarious that I am being accused of following Helicopter Ben.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm6gt89t0X1qdjh5ko1_500.gif

My core value system is centered around property rights and my economics are Austrian.   

The problem this thread has is that everyone is talking past each other and that is understandable given how hard it is to internalize the market mechanics and then explain what you know to others. 

The primary assumption is that there exists a crypto-asset with no counter party and a non-zero value.  IE: bitcoin, Nxt, and BTSX.

The secondary assumption is that the volatility of this asset is within some reasonable range.  200% initial collateral seems to be reasonable, but it could easily be 400% if the volatility called for it.   

Given these assumptions we then assume there are two individuals in the free market that want a "contract for difference".  Contracts for difference are well established and proven and even used in counter party.  One person is given price stability and the other is given leverage.   

If you assume the contract for difference was settled by a 3rd party price feed then it is clear how it would work.   

So given those initial fundamentals we can slowly build up to BitAssets.   The first step is to take the same contract and remove the 3rd party price feed and instead use Nash Equilibrium.  Both parties will want to exit at some point and thus have to agree on a price in the future.  Assuming they were both equally wanting to exit their position the price they would agree at would be the "fair price".   Now clearly if there are only two parties to the trade they may not want to exit at the same time.    So you allow the "long" side to sell his position to others and you allow the "short" side to cover with anyone.   

If someone wants to be a stubborn jerk and not settle then that is fine.... eventually a margin call will be triggered.   The peg will fluctuate as the relative demand for longs vs shorts settling causes the peg to have a settlement premium sufficient to motivate settlement.   

I think it is fairly clear that if there is a price feed from a trusted source that was used to enforce settlement then the system would work to the extent that you could trust the feed.   The hypothesis is that this price feed is irrelevant given a market full of speculators and market makers willing to hold until a short voluntarily covers at a fair market price.

I hope that through this perspective I have shown what the economic incentives are and how the core principles are sound.  All that remains to be seen is whether "market consensus and speculation" is enough to enforce a peg via a "decentralized price feed" or "prediction market" mechanic.  My understanding of game theory and economic incentives tells me this will work, but even if I am wrong I know that price feeds can be used as a "trusted" judge on the "smart contracts for difference".   It is an entirely different game to trust someone to produce a fair feed (or 101 someones) than to trust someone to maintain a vault full of gold.

 

 

 


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: Indemnified on August 23, 2014, 04:23:34 AM
Thanks for bringing some clarity to this discussion.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: devphp on August 23, 2014, 05:07:40 AM
my economics are Austrian.   

Well, that's good. Except this doesn't correlate with Bitshares's decision to support the price of BTSX with the IPO funds. This is rigging of the market, not free market, and this is exactly what central banks do in the fiat world.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: bytemaster on August 23, 2014, 05:28:28 AM
my economics are Austrian.   

Well, that's good. Except this doesn't correlate with Bitshares's decision to support the price of BTSX with the IPO funds. This is rigging of the market, not free market, and this is exactly what central banks do in the fiat world.

That wasn't what was going on there.  That was us making an investment decision based upon expected growth.  I know enough that you don't make money by fighting the markets.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: devphp on August 23, 2014, 05:30:17 AM
That was us making an investment decision based upon expected growth.

Well, that would be like self-fulfilling prophecy then, wouldn't it? You prop up the price with the IPO funds and there is your expected growth realized in price charts ;)

Please reconsider your decision, or you may end up being grouped in the same category as keynesian central bankers. And you can also end up being owner of a sizeable portion of BTSX (20-30%), which goes against decentralization ideals and goals.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: fuznutts on August 23, 2014, 05:41:13 AM
All i'm going to say is that I am one of the biggest "conspiracy theorists" around...and after a LONG time learning about bitshares I am wholly in the camp that believes, as toast says, the "150% reserve" system they are setting up *if the peg holds* is going to piss off a lot of "elite", NWO banker types.  Why?  Because it is NOT fractional and is dictated by market forces---not an monopolistic cabal of old-world money that is the enemy of all free people

Sincerely hope people will do some reading and even attend the weekly mumble hangout that Dan has with--quite literally--anyone who wants to attend.  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4150.0  

Go ahead...visit...ask those tough questions in person!  Oh, and btw, anyone who attends can record and report on these sessions!


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: From Above on August 23, 2014, 05:43:45 AM
Please reconsider your decision, or you may end up being grouped in the same category as keynesian central bankers. And you can also end up being owner of a sizeable portion of BTSX (20-30%), which goes against decentralization ideals and goals.

a nifty little nxt whale parasite giving what they call the 'great satan on the blockchain bernanke friend' nifty hints as to what he should do and what better not LOL.  Crypto Cold War.

=)

WOW I love that CryptoEntertainment

~CfA~


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: nikola384 on August 23, 2014, 05:52:14 AM
That was us making an investment decision based upon expected growth.

Well, that would be like self-fulfilling prophecy then, wouldn't it? You prop up the price with the IPO funds and there is your expected growth realized in price charts ;)

Please reconsider your decision, or you may end up being grouped in the same category as keynesian central bankers. And you can also end up being owner of a sizeable portion of BTSX (20-30%), which goes against decentralization ideals and goals.


Sincerely hope people will do some reading and even attend the weekly mumble hangout that Dan has with--quite literally--anyone who wants to attend.  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4150.0  

Go ahead...visit...ask those tough questions in person!
Reading devphp's post here and on the NXT forum, I think he has done his share or reading about bitshares; And with every passing minute he is more and more concerned that he is about to become the buyer in the famous pizza/BTC story...


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: From Above on August 23, 2014, 05:54:43 AM
Reading devphp's post here and on the NXT forum, I think he has done his share or reading about bitshares; And with every passing minute he is more and more concerned that he is about to become the buyer in the famous pizza/BTC story...

hi nikola im not sure if u r new or not but 'crypto 2.0 advocates' and IN PARTICULAR the NxTsees bitches are the hardcore delusionists of the cryptoscene.  they think NXT is something like a GOD particle which is unrivaled in the universe

devphp thinks he is some kind of Crypto Halfgod Man and only THROUGH the LIGHT of Nxt can u come to the financial freedom.  i know it sounds ridiculous yes sure but this is the worldview these people have LOL

now the question is when will BiTShares guys begin to be like this too LOL

~CfA~


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TaunSew on August 23, 2014, 06:13:16 AM
biTshares is another 2.0 pump as far as I can tell.  You're trying to tell us it's this popular thing but all I see is 90%+ of it being dominated by a few funds in China ~ classic pump and dump.  

biTshares people have invaded Bitcointalk and many crypto forums to try to plead people to get into the pump.   ::)  

 It's beyond ridiculous as bitassets hasn't even been released yet nor is it proprietary technology.  When the Chinese funds stop pumping then there'll be this air sucking sound, biTshares will stagnate and NXT will implement its' own collateral and pegging system if it's actually a demanded feature and not a hype speculation like anonymity was for the past four months.


Congratulations biTshares it took you months to copy NXT's asset exchange (with a few whistles added).  NXT is still the most innovative crypto.


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: chryspano on August 23, 2014, 08:00:37 AM
biTshares is another 2.0 pump as far as I can tell.  You're trying to tell us it's this popular thing but all I see is 90%+ of it being dominated by a few funds in China ~ classic pump and dump.  

biTshares people have invaded Bitcointalk and many crypto forums to try to plead people to get into the pump.   ::)  

 It's beyond ridiculous as bitassets hasn't even been released yet nor is it proprietary technology.  When the Chinese funds stop pumping then there'll be this air sucking sound, biTshares will stagnate and NXT will implement its' own collateral and pegging system if it's actually a demanded feature and not a hype speculation like anonymity was for the past four months.


Congratulations biTshares it took you months to copy NXT's asset exchange (with a few whistles added).  NXT is still the most innovative crypto.



Nxt is inferior to bitshares, you are really pissed off because you CAN'T copy bitshares!!





under this line you can continue with your lies, fud and misinformation you have a mission after all...
==============================================================================


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: Tradingriver on August 23, 2014, 08:34:54 AM
biTshares is another 2.0 pump as far as I can tell.  You're trying to tell us it's this popular thing but all I see is 90%+ of it being dominated by a few funds in China ~ classic pump and dump.  

biTshares people have invaded Bitcointalk and many crypto forums to try to plead people to get into the pump.   ::)  



1. NXT startet with 75 contributer - do you call NXT also a pump and dump?
2. If this is a Bitcointalk invasion - no country at all would lift a finger to fight this 5 guys. Makes me laughing really loud.

I think i will end this communication. I believe in the technology, but only the future will tell the outcome. If i am right i make good money, if i am wrong i loose it. That's ok for me.
"End of communication"


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TaunSew on August 23, 2014, 08:54:25 AM
biTshares is another 2.0 pump as far as I can tell.  You're trying to tell us it's this popular thing but all I see is 90%+ of it being dominated by a few funds in China ~ classic pump and dump.  

biTshares people have invaded Bitcointalk and many crypto forums to try to plead people to get into the pump.   ::)  



1. NXT startet with 75 contributer - do you call NXT also a pump and dump?
2. If this is a Bitcointalk invasion - no country at all would lift a finger to fight this 5 guys. Makes me laughing really loud.

I think i will end this communication. I believe in the technology, but only the future will tell the outcome. If i am right i make good money, if i am wrong i loose it. That's ok for me.
"End of communication"

Where do you think the term  "another" came from?  Yes there are painful cyclical pump and dumps with NXT.  I don't see how BitsharesX has proven to be any different as it looks like it's a game of musical chairs for a few rich investors from China. This isn't the exact same scam as a $hitcoin but the level of manipulation here is going to burn any creditability behind BitsharesX, much like NXT has burnt many bridges.

The fact the BitsharesX people are invading all these crypto forums (you see them starting threads like on the NXT forum) just to promote their pump.

Worse of all is this pump is occurring before bitassets even comes out, which is a definite sign that this is a temporary bubble.   The guys who initiated the pump are likely going to be cashing out soon.

Reality will sit in quickly when bitAssets does actually come out and it doesn't live to the hype or the masses simply have no use for it (the amount of people buying into this pump bubble outweighs the actual number of people who are going to bother with these assets.  Which is also true for other speculative pumps that we have seen for other features in other cryptos)



Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: ChuckOne on August 23, 2014, 09:02:04 AM
Hmm. I think I will need to sleep one night or two over this. That system looks a bit fragile if you ask me.

(btw. there will be NXT backed assets shortly in the next major feature release, so, not back by reputation alone anymore.)

How is Nxt planning on doing this? I have a feeling it may be the same as BitsharesX's back up plan.. getting the average of a bunch of market data feeds.

If it is a different approach, could you explain how you guys are planning on doing it?

Something, the Monetary System of Nxt will be missing is the pegging to real-world fiat AND has a fix initial supply of the money.

In order to express it with the words of Mike Maloney, bitUSD is currency and Nxt Money is money. I am not sure if those words do really care the assumed meaning but he certainly has a point. (I for one believe that this distinction is made up by him but his definition is useful)

So in Nxt, people can create a new currencies by locking away m NXTs and create n new tokens. Everybody can redeem the NXTs looked away proportionally to the amount of money they are willing to redeem. So, no pegging to the real-world and nobody can increase the supply and therefore rob others of their wealth.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: ChuckOne on August 23, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
My core value system is centered around property rights and my economics are Austrian.  

The problem this thread has is that everyone is talking past each other and that is understandable given how hard it is to internalize the market mechanics and then explain what you know to others.  

The primary assumption is that there exists a crypto-asset with no counter party and a non-zero value.  IE: bitcoin, Nxt, and BTSX.

The secondary assumption is that the volatility of this asset is within some reasonable range.  200% initial collateral seems to be reasonable, but it could easily be 400% if the volatility called for it.  

Given these assumptions we then assume there are two individuals in the free market that want a "contract for difference".  Contracts for difference are well established and proven and even used in counter party.  One person is given price stability and the other is given leverage.  

If you assume the contract for difference was settled by a 3rd party price feed then it is clear how it would work.  

So given those initial fundamentals we can slowly build up to BitAssets.   The first step is to take the same contract and remove the 3rd party price feed and instead use Nash Equilibrium.  Both parties will want to exit at some point and thus have to agree on a price in the future.  Assuming they were both equally wanting to exit their position the price they would agree at would be the "fair price".   Now clearly if there are only two parties to the trade they may not want to exit at the same time.    So you allow the "long" side to sell his position to others and you allow the "short" side to cover with anyone.    

If someone wants to be a stubborn jerk and not settle then that is fine.... eventually a margin call will be triggered.   The peg will fluctuate as the relative demand for longs vs shorts settling causes the peg to have a settlement premium sufficient to motivate settlement.  

I think it is fairly clear that if there is a price feed from a trusted source that was used to enforce settlement then the system would work to the extent that you could trust the feed.   The hypothesis is that this price feed is irrelevant given a market full of speculators and market makers willing to hold until a short voluntarily covers at a fair market price.

I hope that through this perspective I have shown what the economic incentives are and how the core principles are sound.  All that remains to be seen is whether "market consensus and speculation" is enough to enforce a peg via a "decentralized price feed" or "prediction market" mechanic.  My understanding of game theory and economic incentives tells me this will work, but even if I am wrong I know that price feeds can be used as a "trusted" judge on the "smart contracts for difference".   It is an entirely different game to trust someone to produce a fair feed (or 101 someones) than to trust someone to maintain a vault full of gold.

Hi bytemaster,

thank you for coming over here and providing these underlying assumptions. :)

Besides from having problems to understand all this (not my metier - so even if I understand the terminologies one by one, understanding their interplay is extremely hard), as people pointed out tinkering with the money supply seems like the feed being the FED.

The biggest problem here is that Average Joe (regarding financial instruments) does simply not understand what you mean by short, long, margin call, Nash equilibrium, contract of difference, peg, a short covers, settlement premium, etc. etc. and now we got Average Joe relying on somebody who, first, is able to understand all of that, AND second, is even able to change the bitUSD supply.


Those two observations lead to the question what is this bitUSD asset about and where is the difference to the current monetary system we have? Because as it seems (or at least the perception is) that financial investors, speculators and banksters are misusing the current system in order enrich themselves just because they can and understand the system; whereas Average Joe does not.


Am I correct that if bitUSD is really peggable by the USD, it would allow to build an economy around that cryptocurrency much faster than with Bitcoin or Nxt because merchants can be sure to have stable prices?


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: TinEye on August 23, 2014, 10:07:58 AM
biTshares is another 2.0 pump as far as I can tell.  You're trying to tell us it's this popular thing but all I see is 90%+ of it being dominated by a few funds in China ~ classic pump and dump.  

biTshares people have invaded Bitcointalk and many crypto forums to try to plead people to get into the pump.   ::)  

 It's beyond ridiculous as bitassets hasn't even been released yet nor is it proprietary technology.  When the Chinese funds stop pumping then there'll be this air sucking sound, biTshares will stagnate and NXT will implement its' own collateral and pegging system if it's actually a demanded feature and not a hype speculation like anonymity was for the past four months.


Congratulations biTshares it took you months to copy NXT's asset exchange (with a few whistles added).  NXT is still the most innovative crypto.


Instead of wasting time trying to play down Bitshares here, go and try to make NEM the best it can be. In particular, see if you can implement this DPOS there, it seems better than TF.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: Afridon on August 23, 2014, 10:52:23 AM
The concept of bitUSD is intresting and good but i think it won't work,so many details.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: ChuckOne on August 23, 2014, 10:54:46 AM
The concept of bitUSD is intresting and good but i think it won't work,so many details.

Interesting. I think that backs up my point.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: EvilDave on August 23, 2014, 11:21:28 AM
So, to sum up the situation:

BitsharesX probably is a legit operation.

The most vocal BTT/Bitshares community seems to be 3-5 new accounts plus C-f-A. (Way to go BTS!)

BTSX price (and the #3 market cap) is being propped up by using IPO money to pump it.

Hmm....still not very convinced: even if the core tech works like the best thing ever,
this kind of marketing bullshit is just gonna piss people off pretty soon.



Point from TaunSew.....maybe I should be more paranoid.
Yes it's a Cold War.  Bitshares is Chinese Communists vs the free NXT world.  NXT does not know there is a war and hence they are losing.  Who do you think has been DOSing and hacking NXT over and over?
Need to point out that, so far, NXT hasn't yet been hacked in any way that affects the core NXT technology.
All of the NXT thefts have been either basic social engineeering attacks, or weak password security.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: devphp on August 23, 2014, 11:27:24 AM
We need a BTSX/NXT trading pair. Let's petition exchanges. Whether you're a BTSX believer or NXT believer, why do you want to go to Bitcoin? If you want to invest in both, and want to reshuffle your investments between the two as prices fluctuate, there is even less reason to exchange to Bitcoin first.


There must be a BTSX<->NXT direct exchange!

If you disagree, you're an enemy of both BTSX and NXT.

Please petition Bter in their support thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280806.0


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: FandangledGizmo on August 23, 2014, 01:13:59 PM
So, to sum up the situation:

BitsharesX probably is a legit operation.

The most vocal BTT/Bitshares community seems to be 3-5 new accounts plus C-f-A. (Way to go BTS!)

BTSX price (and the #3 market cap) is being propped up by using IPO money to pump it.


1. I would suggest the BitShares community is as big as NXT. Our forum has 5760 members. Besides me and a few others, they just don't come onto BTT as much. The provocative original title of this thread (BitShares - Great Satan on the blockchain ) as well as tasteless picture & baseless content from a few bad apples in NXT, which I otherwise like, is what drew a response from me.

2. The fact that BitShares want to increase their exposure to BTSX, for the investor minded, shows they have a lot of confidence in it. If they were selling I'd be worried. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=7245.0

I personally enjoyed some of the content in this thread from Bytemaster when I was evaluating his views about the status quo etc. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2853.msg35523#msg35523



Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: CLains on August 23, 2014, 01:48:53 PM
It is quite entertaining seeing what people are saying about me.  As someone who believes in finding free market solutions to secure our life, liberty, and property and whom is more anarcho-capitalist than anyone I have ever met it is absolutely hilarious that I am being accused of following Helicopter Ben.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm6gt89t0X1qdjh5ko1_500.gif

My core value system is centered around property rights and my economics are Austrian.   

The problem this thread has is that everyone is talking past each other and that is understandable given how hard it is to internalize the market mechanics and then explain what you know to others. 

The primary assumption is that there exists a crypto-asset with no counter party and a non-zero value.  IE: bitcoin, Nxt, and BTSX.

The secondary assumption is that the volatility of this asset is within some reasonable range.  200% initial collateral seems to be reasonable, but it could easily be 400% if the volatility called for it.   

Given these assumptions we then assume there are two individuals in the free market that want a "contract for difference".  Contracts for difference are well established and proven and even used in counter party.  One person is given price stability and the other is given leverage.   

If you assume the contract for difference was settled by a 3rd party price feed then it is clear how it would work.   

So given those initial fundamentals we can slowly build up to BitAssets.   The first step is to take the same contract and remove the 3rd party price feed and instead use Nash Equilibrium.  Both parties will want to exit at some point and thus have to agree on a price in the future.  Assuming they were both equally wanting to exit their position the price they would agree at would be the "fair price".   Now clearly if there are only two parties to the trade they may not want to exit at the same time.    So you allow the "long" side to sell his position to others and you allow the "short" side to cover with anyone.   

If someone wants to be a stubborn jerk and not settle then that is fine.... eventually a margin call will be triggered.   The peg will fluctuate as the relative demand for longs vs shorts settling causes the peg to have a settlement premium sufficient to motivate settlement.   

I think it is fairly clear that if there is a price feed from a trusted source that was used to enforce settlement then the system would work to the extent that you could trust the feed.   The hypothesis is that this price feed is irrelevant given a market full of speculators and market makers willing to hold until a short voluntarily covers at a fair market price.

I hope that through this perspective I have shown what the economic incentives are and how the core principles are sound.  All that remains to be seen is whether "market consensus and speculation" is enough to enforce a peg via a "decentralized price feed" or "prediction market" mechanic.  My understanding of game theory and economic incentives tells me this will work, but even if I am wrong I know that price feeds can be used as a "trusted" judge on the "smart contracts for difference".   It is an entirely different game to trust someone to produce a fair feed (or 101 someones) than to trust someone to maintain a vault full of gold.

+101


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: From Above on August 23, 2014, 01:57:11 PM
The most vocal BTT/Bitshares community seems to be 3-5 new accounts plus C-f-A. (Way to go BTS!)

i love u arrogant dandy dafe :)   but i dont like bitshares & nxt ipo scams.

if anything NxT guys managed to drive my NxT investment down and down for months cuz u stakehoders bitches cash out everytime the prices rises a tiny lil bit .. this is why its worthless in it s entirety .

better ethereum or some other large scale scam than little nifty NxTsys boys.

without my buy support nxt would long be dead LOL  :-\

~CfA~


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: sparta_cuss on August 23, 2014, 10:32:22 PM
I wonder how much of Bitshares project is in line with BCNext's overall plan. This is from Part Two. 

"Regarding NXT as coins: NXTs are not coins... or at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be seen as coins. They are tokens that grant privileges for supporting Nxt.
Deflation is not much better than inflation. "Real" coins should be created on top of Nxt, and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable. The community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him, or stick to the Bitcoin legacy of an unchangeable supply of coins with which people hope to become rich by doing nothing."

See the full text here: http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/BCNext%27s_Plan


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: toast on August 23, 2014, 11:23:02 PM
It is quite entertaining seeing what people are saying about me.  As someone who believes in finding free market solutions to secure our life, liberty, and property and whom is more anarcho-capitalist than anyone I have ever met it is absolutely hilarious that I am being accused of following Helicopter Ben.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm6gt89t0X1qdjh5ko1_500.gif

My core value system is centered around property rights and my economics are Austrian.   

The problem this thread has is that everyone is talking past each other and that is understandable given how hard it is to internalize the market mechanics and then explain what you know to others. 

The primary assumption is that there exists a crypto-asset with no counter party and a non-zero value.  IE: bitcoin, Nxt, and BTSX.

The secondary assumption is that the volatility of this asset is within some reasonable range.  200% initial collateral seems to be reasonable, but it could easily be 400% if the volatility called for it.   

Given these assumptions we then assume there are two individuals in the free market that want a "contract for difference".  Contracts for difference are well established and proven and even used in counter party.  One person is given price stability and the other is given leverage.   

If you assume the contract for difference was settled by a 3rd party price feed then it is clear how it would work.   

So given those initial fundamentals we can slowly build up to BitAssets.   The first step is to take the same contract and remove the 3rd party price feed and instead use Nash Equilibrium.  Both parties will want to exit at some point and thus have to agree on a price in the future.  Assuming they were both equally wanting to exit their position the price they would agree at would be the "fair price".   Now clearly if there are only two parties to the trade they may not want to exit at the same time.    So you allow the "long" side to sell his position to others and you allow the "short" side to cover with anyone.   

If someone wants to be a stubborn jerk and not settle then that is fine.... eventually a margin call will be triggered.   The peg will fluctuate as the relative demand for longs vs shorts settling causes the peg to have a settlement premium sufficient to motivate settlement.   

I think it is fairly clear that if there is a price feed from a trusted source that was used to enforce settlement then the system would work to the extent that you could trust the feed.   The hypothesis is that this price feed is irrelevant given a market full of speculators and market makers willing to hold until a short voluntarily covers at a fair market price.

I hope that through this perspective I have shown what the economic incentives are and how the core principles are sound.  All that remains to be seen is whether "market consensus and speculation" is enough to enforce a peg via a "decentralized price feed" or "prediction market" mechanic.  My understanding of game theory and economic incentives tells me this will work, but even if I am wrong I know that price feeds can be used as a "trusted" judge on the "smart contracts for difference".   It is an entirely different game to trust someone to produce a fair feed (or 101 someones) than to trust someone to maintain a vault full of gold.
 


Thank you. This thread needs less knee-jerk reaction and more discussion of the actual mechanics.

Fortunately the OP seems to have become interested in how this thing works and has calmed down with the flaming a little bit... meanwhile I think it would do everyone good to take a few minutes to understand the fundamentals rather than make assumptions.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: TaunSew on August 24, 2014, 12:38:11 AM
I wonder how much of Bitshares project is in line with BCNext's overall plan. This is from Part Two.  

"Regarding NXT as coins: NXTs are not coins... or at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be seen as coins. They are tokens that grant privileges for supporting Nxt.
Deflation is not much better than inflation. "Real" coins should be created on top of Nxt, and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable. The community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him, or stick to the Bitcoin legacy of an unchangeable supply of coins with which people hope to become rich by doing nothing."

See the full text here: http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/BCNext%27s_Plan

Most people would take deflation over inflation.  Crypto Currencies only exist and have a following due to the stagflation we have seen since the 1960s (inflation + stagnating wage increases).

Why should any of us work our whole life and have little saved for retirement, because we were paying a 1%-6% "tax on the poor" (inflation) every year?  Inflation during the privatization of the former Soviet Union is what led to many pensioners to resort to eating dog food.  Much like every year it is becoming more difficult in the United States to feed a family due to stagflation and increasing CPI.

I think your concern is velocity but velocity doesn't matter unless crypto currencies hit $10+ trillion and it's just a single "one world currency" which replaces $Fiat.  Which I don't think it's possible as crypto currencies are currently very decentralized and plural (400+ alternates to Bitcoin).

Maybe someone like John Titor was correct in that monetary system of the future will be decentralized and crypto currencies is a good example of that.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: nikola384 on August 24, 2014, 01:22:16 AM
I wonder how much of Bitshares project is in line with BCNext's overall plan. This is from Part Two.  

"Regarding NXT as coins: NXTs are not coins... or at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be seen as coins. They are tokens that grant privileges for supporting Nxt.
Deflation is not much better than inflation. "Real" coins should be created on top of Nxt, and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable. The community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him, or stick to the Bitcoin legacy of an unchangeable supply of coins with which people hope to become rich by doing nothing."

See the full text here: http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/BCNext%27s_Plan

Most people would take deflation over inflation.  Crypto Currencies only exist and have a following due to the stagflation we have seen since the 1960s (inflation + stagnating wage increases).

Why should any of us work our whole life and have little saved for retirement, because we were paying a 1%-6% "tax on the poor" (inflation) every year?  Inflation during the privatization of the former Soviet Union is what led to many pensioners to resort to eating dog food.  Much like every year it is becoming more difficult in the United States to feed a family due to stagflation and increasing CPI.

I think your concern is velocity but velocity doesn't matter unless crypto currencies hit $10+ trillion and it's just a single "one world currency" which replaces $Fiat.  Which I don't think it's possible as crypto currencies are currently very decentralized and plural (400+ alternates to Bitcoin).

Maybe someone like John Titor was correct in that monetary system of the future will be decentralized and crypto currencies is a good example of that.


And your point is ???


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: TaunSew on August 24, 2014, 01:24:36 AM
I wonder how much of Bitshares project is in line with BCNext's overall plan. This is from Part Two.  

"Regarding NXT as coins: NXTs are not coins... or at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be seen as coins. They are tokens that grant privileges for supporting Nxt.
Deflation is not much better than inflation. "Real" coins should be created on top of Nxt, and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable. The community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him, or stick to the Bitcoin legacy of an unchangeable supply of coins with which people hope to become rich by doing nothing."

See the full text here: http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/BCNext%27s_Plan

Most people would take deflation over inflation.  Crypto Currencies only exist and have a following due to the stagflation we have seen since the 1960s (inflation + stagnating wage increases).

Why should any of us work our whole life and have little saved for retirement, because we were paying a 1%-6% "tax on the poor" (inflation) every year?  Inflation during the privatization of the former Soviet Union is what led to many pensioners to resort to eating dog food.  Much like every year it is becoming more difficult in the United States to feed a family due to stagflation and increasing CPI.

I think your concern is velocity but velocity doesn't matter unless crypto currencies hit $10+ trillion and it's just a single "one world currency" which replaces $Fiat.  Which I don't think it's possible as crypto currencies are currently very decentralized and plural (400+ alternates to Bitcoin).

Maybe someone like John Titor was correct in that monetary system of the future will be decentralized and crypto currencies is a good example of that.


And your point is ???

And yours is?  He made a lame rhetorical message.  I can't write my own rhetorical posts?

Honestly who gives a chit about BCnext's "plan" (likely fiction written by others after he left) when his real plan ended up being fire sell $100K+ worth of NXT and fleeing into the night?   The reason he never came back was because he would be too embarrassed to admit having sold 1-2 months early (could had pocketed millions instead of six figures).




Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: sparta_cuss on August 24, 2014, 01:37:45 AM

And yours is?  He made a lame rhetorical message.  I can't write my own rhetorical posts?

Honestly who gives a chit about BCnext's "plan" when his real plan ended up being fire sell $100K+ worth of NXT and fleeing into the night?  


What you call a "lame rhetorical message" is what many people call an example of an open, curious mind. I realize that forums are not good places for people to exchange ideas and try to learn. Most, it seems, assume that this is a debate, and one "earns points" by vanquishing an opponent in discursive combat. People become more entrenched in their own thinking, and gain the support of the echo chamber from whence they came. This is not my scene. Have fun.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: nikola384 on August 24, 2014, 01:47:04 AM

And yours is?  He made a lame rhetorical message.  I can't write my own rhetorical posts?

Honestly who gives a chit about BCnext's "plan" when his real plan ended up being fire sell $100K+ worth of NXT and fleeing into the night?  


What you call a "lame rhetorical point" is what many people call an example of an open, curious mind. I realize that forums are not good places for people to exchange ideas and try to learn. Most, it seems, assume that this is a debate, and one "earns points" by vanquishing an opponent in discursive combat. People become more entrenched in their own thinking, and gain the support of the echo chamber from whence they came. This is not my scene. Have fun.

You can find a few bad apples in every walk of life.
Do not leave, please!

Honestly, your post was one of the greatest things I read recently. Even though it is just - 'The Great Minds think alike!'

......

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Mahatma Gandhi




Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: tonyk on August 24, 2014, 05:20:58 AM

And yours is?  He made a lame rhetorical message.  I can't write my own rhetorical posts?

Honestly who gives a chit about BCnext's "plan" when his real plan ended up being fire sell $100K+ worth of NXT and fleeing into the night?  


What you call a "lame rhetorical point" is what many people call an example of an open, curious mind. I realize that forums are not good places for people to exchange ideas and try to learn. Most, it seems, assume that this is a debate, and one "earns points" by vanquishing an opponent in discursive combat. People become more entrenched in their own thinking, and gain the support of the echo chamber from whence they came. This is not my scene. Have fun.

You can find a few bad apples in every walk of life.
Do not leave, please!

Honestly, your post was one of the greatest things I read recently. Even though it is just - 'The Great Minds think alike!'

......

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Mahatma Gandhi






I wonder how much of Bitshares project is in line with BCNext's overall plan. This is from Part Two. 

"Regarding NXT as coins: NXTs are not coins... or at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be seen as coins. They are tokens that grant privileges for supporting Nxt.
Deflation is not much better than inflation. "Real" coins should be created on top of Nxt, and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable. The community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him, or stick to the Bitcoin legacy of an unchangeable supply of coins with which people hope to become rich by doing nothing."

See the full text here: http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/BCNext%27s_Plan

Sometimes I ask myself: 'Why do you still go back there?'

Posts like above, are the answer, for me personally...





Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: bytemaster on August 24, 2014, 05:55:04 AM
Quote
The biggest problem here is that Average Joe (regarding financial instruments) does simply not understand what you mean by short, long, margin call, Nash equilibrium, contract of difference, peg, a short covers, settlement premium, etc. etc. and now we got Average Joe relying on somebody who, first, is able to understand all of that, AND second, is even able to change the bitUSD supply.


Those two observations lead to the question what is this bitUSD asset about and where is the difference to the current monetary system we have? Because as it seems (or at least the perception is) that financial investors, speculators and banksters are misusing the current system in order enrich themselves just because they can and understand the system; whereas Average Joe does not.


Am I correct that if bitUSD is really peggable by the USD, it would allow to build an economy around that cryptocurrency much faster than with Bitcoin or Nxt because merchants can be sure to have stable prices?

The average Joe isn't going to be able to understand the system any more than they understand the current banking system or even bitcoin.  At the end of the day most people have to watch it work and then learn to trust it.   While there is some value in trying to explain it to the average Joe in simple terms, much is lost in translation and that is really beyond the point of this particular thread.

I think that if someone wishes to "attack" the idea BitUSD but lacks the background to know the terms used, then they also lack the standing to publicly criticize and declare a scam, fraud, or broken system.   I do not like to hide behind fancy language and have taken great effort to explain it in simple terms in many places.   Unfortunately the simple explanations are never "complete, accurate, and authoritative".

The primary difference between BitUSD and the FED is that it is market driven and all IOUs are collateralized 200%.   In the case of the Fed they can print up $2 trillion dollars without having any collateral.  BTSX would require collateral worth $4 trillion dollars to exist.   The next difference is transparency.   Another difference is the complete lack of "price fixing".


















Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: sparta_cuss on August 24, 2014, 05:56:17 AM
Thank you for the support.

BCNext is a hell of a lot smarter than I am. His thoughts are worth considering because he has provided not just a cryptocurrency, but a way of thinking about how to create, through math, ways for people to interact. Based on what he wrote, he seems to have been interested in how Nxt could encourage social cohesion rather than selfish behavior. I am, of course, interested in whether he was "right," however we want to define right. But my first question is, What can we learn by taking his challenges and questions seriously? That is why returning to his three-part plan is worthwhile. It is an exercise, a heuristic, if nothing else.

It seems like Bitshares aims to satisfy one of BCNext's goals for Nxt: cooperation by algorithm and mutual interest. (I am not suggesting that Bitshares is copying BCNext, only that there is congruence between the two plans.) I understand that many disagree about whether this can work, but whether it does or does not, a deeper question is raised for me: If cooperation/mutual interest is enforced by the algorithm, is it really cooperation?

CfB wrote this, speaking for BCNext:
"Bitcoin relies only on math, but math can't solve problems arising because of the illogical nature of the man. Mining in Nxt relies on the cooperation of people, and even forces it. Without cooperation, Nxt becomes weak and can be easily attacked. It's like a system in unstable equilibrium. If people stop caring about cooperation, Nxt will fail very quickly."

Maybe enforced cooperation is the best we can do?

I realize that many of you will think that these are abstract, philosophical questions that have little place here. But I think that without these philosophical questions, without a sense for the good that any cryptocurrency can do and how it can do it, we are just creating a tool that can be used for good or evil. (Many in this thread already believe that Bitshares is a tool for evil, as you can see from the OP.) My point is, we must ask not only, "Does it work?" but "Is it good for the world?"


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: devphp on August 24, 2014, 01:12:12 PM
We need a BTSX/NXT trading pair. Let's petition exchanges. Whether you're a BTSX believer or NXT believer, why do you want to go to Bitcoin? If you want to invest in both, and want to reshuffle your investments between the two as prices fluctuate, there is even less reason to exchange to Bitcoin first.


There must be a BTSX<->NXT direct exchange!

If you disagree, you're an enemy of both BTSX and NXT.

Please petition Bter in their support thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280806.0

And it happened, folks!

https://bter.com/trade/btsx_nxt

now we don't need to touch Bitcoin with a ten foot pole ;D


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: pythonista on August 25, 2014, 01:50:32 PM
Bytemaster is awesome - looking forward to BitUSD going live today  :)


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: anasazi on August 26, 2014, 07:45:23 AM
In case you haven't seen it already: http://prestonbyrne.com/2014/08/17/dont-walk-away-run/

What do you think?


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: testz on August 26, 2014, 09:30:54 AM
In case you haven't seen it already: http://prestonbyrne.com/2014/08/17/dont-walk-away-run/

What do you think?

Check this one also: http://prestonbyrne.com/2014/08/24/what-goes-up/


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: testz on August 26, 2014, 09:31:50 AM
Bytemaster is awesome - looking forward to BitUSD going live today  :)

Bter add the BitUSD/BTC pair https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_btc


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: NapoleonBonaparte on August 26, 2014, 09:42:19 AM
Bytemaster is awesome - looking forward to BitUSD going live today  :)

Bter add the BitUSD/BTC pair https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_btc

That was quick to be added on a reputable alt coin exchange.

Did Mintpal, Poloniex, Cryptsy addded the pair yet?


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: testz on August 26, 2014, 10:47:49 AM
Bytemaster is awesome - looking forward to BitUSD going live today  :)

Bter add the BitUSD/BTC pair https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_btc

That was quick to be added on a reputable alt coin exchange.

Did Mintpal, Poloniex, Cryptsy addded the pair yet?

Not yet, Bter was first.
Next probably will be btc38 or poloniex, they already trade BitSharesX (BTSX), all rest should integrate BitSharesX first, it's not Bitcoin style coin and required additional work in order to integrate it to exchange (like Nxt or Monero for example)


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: dwdoc on August 29, 2014, 07:07:40 PM

And yours is?  He made a lame rhetorical message.  I can't write my own rhetorical posts?

Honestly who gives a chit about BCnext's "plan" when his real plan ended up being fire sell $100K+ worth of NXT and fleeing into the night?  


What you call a "lame rhetorical point" is what many people call an example of an open, curious mind. I realize that forums are not good places for people to exchange ideas and try to learn. Most, it seems, assume that this is a debate, and one "earns points" by vanquishing an opponent in discursive combat. People become more entrenched in their own thinking, and gain the support of the echo chamber from whence they came. This is not my scene. Have fun.

You can find a few bad apples in every walk of life.
Do not leave, please!

Honestly, your post was one of the greatest things I read recently. Even though it is just - 'The Great Minds think alike!'

......

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Mahatma Gandhi




Yes but sometimes it never makes it past phase 2.

http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/lilienth.jpg


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: ChuckOne on August 29, 2014, 07:15:29 PM
The every increasing BitSharesX goes down. What does that mean for bitUSD?


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: brekyrself on August 29, 2014, 11:33:28 PM
The every increasing BitSharesX goes down. What does that mean for bitUSD?

Of course there was going to be a correction after that increase.  BitUSD will not be going anywhere and its nice they are collaborating with the user base about any changes and or new features.


https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=7843.0

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=7953.0


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: origin12 on August 29, 2014, 11:48:19 PM
There is the following buy order on bter.


Price          Amount(BTC)      Total(BITUSD)

578.00000000      0.8650          499.9700

What does the 578.00000000 price refer to if someone is buying 499.9700 BITUSD for 0.8650 BTC?


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: From Above on August 29, 2014, 11:49:08 PM
There is the following buy order on bter.


Price          Amount(BTC)      Total(BITUSD)

578.00000000      0.8650          499.9700

What does the 578.00000000 price refer to if someone is buying 499.9700 BITUSD for 0.8650 BTC?

it means the bitcoin NSA illuminati will eat ur brain

~CfA~


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: SomethingElse on September 28, 2014, 11:03:52 AM
I have a hard time understanding this.  Bitshares wants me to give them my real USD for their bitUSD? 

How about they give me their real USD for some of my SomethingElseUSD?  I'll be more than happy to put it on an exchange and I promise I will always pay anyone back when they want.

Yes, I am trolling a bit here.  But I really don't get it.  What's the point?


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on September 28, 2014, 12:57:30 PM
I have a hard time understanding this.  Bitshares wants me to give them my real USD for their bitUSD? 

How about they give me their real USD for some of my SomethingElseUSD?  I'll be more than happy to put it on an exchange and I promise I will always pay anyone back when they want.

Yes, I am trolling a bit here.  But I really don't get it.  What's the point?

BitUSD is pegged to the dollar. Means no volatility (other than USD inflation). It's only a matter of time that people wake up and realize the significant benefits of a cryptocurrency like BitUSD that has no volatility and thus doesn't need to be immediately dumped for fiat. All of this is done in the decentralized and free-market driven collateralized system that is BTSX. Incredible stuff, really.

But yea, investing in BitUSD now is more of a way to hedge against a possible short-term fall in BTSX price, due to the fact it's very young and therefore not widely adopted (yet). It's the future potential that is truly awe-inspiring. Plus, you earn interest on your BitUSD (or BitGLD, BitSLV, etc) estimated to be in the realm of 5-10%. Try doing that with a fiat CD in a centralized bank.  ;)


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: SomethingElse on September 28, 2014, 01:28:00 PM
I have a hard time understanding this.  Bitshares wants me to give them my real USD for their bitUSD? 

How about they give me their real USD for some of my SomethingElseUSD?  I'll be more than happy to put it on an exchange and I promise I will always pay anyone back when they want.

Yes, I am trolling a bit here.  But I really don't get it.  What's the point?

BitUSD is pegged to the dollar. Means no volatility (other than USD inflation). It's only a matter of time that people wake up and realize the significant benefits of a cryptocurrency like BitUSD that has no volatility and thus doesn't need to be immediately dumped for fiat. All of this is done in the decentralized and free-market driven collateralized system that is BTSX. Incredible stuff, really.

Please help me if I don't understand this right.  You are saying the goal of BitUSD is to create a crypto that is pegged to the dollar.  Then people can use that BitUSD and not have to worry about if it will go up or down?  Then my question is, who is minting all these bitUSDs? and when I give them my real dollar for their bitUSD, what are they doing with it? 


But yea, investing in BitUSD now is more of a way to hedge against a possible short-term fall in BTSX price, due to the fact it's very young and therefore not widely adopted (yet). It's the future potential that is truly awe-inspiring. Plus, you earn interest on your BitUSD (or BitGLD, BitSLV, etc) estimated to be in the realm of 5-10%. Try doing that with a fiat CD in a centralized bank.  ;)

Interest sounds good.  I like interest.  Sooooo... do I have to turn in real gold to get bitgold too?  And where does this interest magically appear from?  How can my rock of gold grow bigger, or my wad of cash get thicker.  Wouldn't for me to get richer, somebody else would have to be paying for it and they are getting poorer?  How would they feel about that? 

Again, a little bit of a troll, but still serious questions and I thank you for taking the time to answer my last ones.  I'm still trying to put this all together in my head.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: robrigo on September 28, 2014, 03:30:22 PM
I have a hard time understanding this.  Bitshares wants me to give them my real USD for their bitUSD?  

How about they give me their real USD for some of my SomethingElseUSD?  I'll be more than happy to put it on an exchange and I promise I will always pay anyone back when they want.

Yes, I am trolling a bit here.  But I really don't get it.  What's the point?

BitUSD is pegged to the dollar. Means no volatility (other than USD inflation). It's only a matter of time that people wake up and realize the significant benefits of a cryptocurrency like BitUSD that has no volatility and thus doesn't need to be immediately dumped for fiat. All of this is done in the decentralized and free-market driven collateralized system that is BTSX. Incredible stuff, really.

Please help me if I don't understand this right.  You are saying the goal of BitUSD is to create a crypto that is pegged to the dollar.  Then people can use that BitUSD and not have to worry about if it will go up or down?  Then my question is, who is minting all these bitUSDs? and when I give them my real dollar for their bitUSD, what are they doing with it?  


But yea, investing in BitUSD now is more of a way to hedge against a possible short-term fall in BTSX price, due to the fact it's very young and therefore not widely adopted (yet). It's the future potential that is truly awe-inspiring. Plus, you earn interest on your BitUSD (or BitGLD, BitSLV, etc) estimated to be in the realm of 5-10%. Try doing that with a fiat CD in a centralized bank.  ;)

Interest sounds good.  I like interest.  Sooooo... do I have to turn in real gold to get bitgold too?  And where does this interest magically appear from?  How can my rock of gold grow bigger, or my wad of cash get thicker.  Wouldn't for me to get richer, somebody else would have to be paying for it and they are getting poorer?  How would they feel about that?  

Again, a little bit of a troll, but still serious questions and I thank you for taking the time to answer my last ones.  I'm still trying to put this all together in my head.

bitUSD doesn't function like an IOU; it is "minted" into existence by matching a short sell on the decentralized exchange built into the BitSharesX blockchain, the order of which puts up at least 2x the collateral in BTSX. Risk is assumed by the two voluntary parties involved in a matched order. Some tweaks to the market rules have been introduced recently to rank shorts by the amount of collateral put up, which will increase liquidity in the BitAsset markets. You can think of it as, 1 new bitUSD is minted by "locking up" more than the amount of BTSX equal to the value of 1 USD. Same deal with the other BitAssets. These are essentially financial instruments that correlate closely to the value of whatever a BitAsset is tracking.  Variable yield is paid out from a fund that receives value from accumulated market fees. There is more to it than that but rather than try to explain it all I will point you at some useful resources.

I'd suggest reading here for more detailed information about how the peg works:

Explanation of the market peg: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Market_Peg
"The Market Peg Works": https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8358.0;topicseen
Discussion of yield (aka "interest"): https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8520.0
Discussion of new rules that order shorts by amount of collateral put up: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9029.0


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: SomethingElse on September 29, 2014, 03:58:52 AM

"The Market Peg Works": https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8358.0;topicseen
Explanation of the market peg: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Market_Peg


Thanks for the links and answering my questions despite my dryness.  

I read the link above and the first question that pops in my head is this.  What if I buy bitBTC with the price right now just being under $400, and next week Paypal and Amazon both announce full integration of Bitcoin coming 2015.  In one day the price of bitcoin jumps from $390 to just over $1100.  I see the bubble and want to cash out.  The person that minted the bitUSD put in 200% but now bitcoin has raised almost 300%.  Where does my extra money come from when I am cashing out?  


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: SomethingElse on September 29, 2014, 04:05:58 AM

bitUSD doesn't function like an IOU; it is "minted" into existence by matching a short sell on the decentralized exchange built into the BitSharesX blockchain, the order of which puts up at least 2x the collateral in BTSX. Risk is assumed by the two voluntary parties involved in a matched order. Some tweaks to the market rules have been introduced recently to rank shorts by the amount of collateral put up, which will increase liquidity in the BitAsset markets. You can think of it as, 1 new bitUSD is minted by "locking up" more than the amount of BTSX equal to the value of 1 USD. Same deal with the other BitAssets. These are essentially financial instruments that correlate closely to the value of whatever a BitAsset is tracking.  Variable yield is paid out from a fund that receives value from accumulated market fees. There is more to it than that but rather than try to explain it all I will point you at some useful resources.

I'd suggest reading here for more detailed information about how the peg works:

Explanation of the market peg: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Market_Peg
"The Market Peg Works": https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8358.0;topicseen
Discussion of yield (aka "interest"): https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8520.0
Discussion of new rules that order shorts by amount of collateral put up: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9029.0

So the way I understand it is that BitsharesX is a coin which is basically like engine that bitSomething runs on.  I buy these BitsharesX and then I pick an asset I want to short.  Hopefully somebody will see my short and they will go long against me.  So basically the whole platform is just for people to bet long or short on any commodity.  But the commodity doesn't really exist.  If I own 1 barrel of bitOIL, that is not redeemable for for oil.  At best it is redeemable for BitsharesX.  Is that true?


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: brekyrself on September 29, 2014, 04:21:00 AM

bitUSD doesn't function like an IOU; it is "minted" into existence by matching a short sell on the decentralized exchange built into the BitSharesX blockchain, the order of which puts up at least 2x the collateral in BTSX. Risk is assumed by the two voluntary parties involved in a matched order. Some tweaks to the market rules have been introduced recently to rank shorts by the amount of collateral put up, which will increase liquidity in the BitAsset markets. You can think of it as, 1 new bitUSD is minted by "locking up" more than the amount of BTSX equal to the value of 1 USD. Same deal with the other BitAssets. These are essentially financial instruments that correlate closely to the value of whatever a BitAsset is tracking.  Variable yield is paid out from a fund that receives value from accumulated market fees. There is more to it than that but rather than try to explain it all I will point you at some useful resources.

I'd suggest reading here for more detailed information about how the peg works:

Explanation of the market peg: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Market_Peg
"The Market Peg Works": https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8358.0;topicseen
Discussion of yield (aka "interest"): https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8520.0
Discussion of new rules that order shorts by amount of collateral put up: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9029.0

So the way I understand it is that BitsharesX is a coin which is basically like engine that bitSomething runs on.  I buy these BitsharesX and then I pick an asset I want to short.  Hopefully somebody will see my short and they will go long against me.  So basically the whole platform is just for people to bet long or short on any commodity.  But the commodity doesn't really exist.  If I own 1 barrel of bitOIL, that is not redeemable for for oil.  At best it is redeemable for BitsharesX.  Is that true?

Yes and no.  At a high level these BitAssets can be traded directly on a centralized exchange such as Bter.  So BitUSD vs USD has its own market.  You are correct in that the pegs allow for traders to play the market without ever having to use a central exchange unless they want to cash out to their bank account.  Moving forward though if the pegs hold, businesses may be more inclined to accept BitUSD as the value always = 1 usd.  This gets rid of the volatility problem and could eliminate the need for businesses to use an intermediary such as BitPay.  Again thinking high level, think about the usage of BitUSD, BitEuro, Bitxyz currency, for an international corporation.  BitShares could provide a payment platform.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: SomethingElse on September 29, 2014, 05:51:16 AM

Yes and no.  At a high level these BitAssets can be traded directly on a centralized exchange such as Bter.  So BitUSD vs USD has its own market.  You are correct in that the pegs allow for traders to play the market without ever having to use a central exchange unless they want to cash out to their bank account.  Moving forward though if the pegs hold, businesses may be more inclined to accept BitUSD as the value always = 1 usd.  This gets rid of the volatility problem and could eliminate the need for businesses to use an intermediary such as BitPay.  Again thinking high level, think about the usage of BitUSD, BitEuro, Bitxyz currency, for an international corporation.  BitShares could provide a payment platform.

Does it always equal the peg?  As far as I could read, it was just hoped for.  What if a big buyer has inside information and buys everything?  Or what of the opposite, what if a big holder sees the exit time and totally dumps? Are these possibilities?  

I am just wondering because telling people that $1 is supposed to be pegged to 1 bitUSD and then hoping they believe that declaration and act in accordance with that sounds a bit scary to me.  Because in the end 1 bitUSD is not $1.  It exists in a completely different system, with its own unique properties and rules, none of which are the same as a real dollar bill in my pocket, except for the fact that the issuer of the bitUSD is hoping for them to roughly be valued the same.  Other than they are hoped that the market will treat them as the same value, they are entirely two different things.  bitUSD might be worth more than a real dollar bill in my pocket because of its properties, or maybe less, but I doubt exactly the same.  It is hard for me to imagine that they would both be worth exactly the same all the time.  It seems like there would be quite a bit of volatility.  


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: SomethingElse on September 29, 2014, 06:03:06 AM

"The Market Peg Works": https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8358.0;topicseen
Explanation of the market peg: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Market_Peg


Thanks for the links and answering my questions despite my dryness.  

I read the link above and the first question that pops in my head is this.  What if I buy bitBTC with the price right now just being under $400, and next week Paypal and Amazon both announce full integration of Bitcoin coming 2015.  In one day the price of bitcoin jumps from $390 to just over $1100.  I see the bubble and want to cash out.  The person that minted the bitUSD put in 200% but now bitcoin has raised almost 300%.  Where does my extra money come from when I am cashing out?  

I want to bump this question.  One month ago I posted that Dogecoin was at its bottom and would only go up from there.  Now if BitsharesX had been around then I am guessing somebody could have issued bitDoge hoping to short Doge and since I thought it would go up, I could have bought and I could have gone in there and bought it all being very confident in my choice and having big pockets.  Now one month later, Doge is up four times.  I read the issuer to issue had to have double the value.  Assuming BitsharesX value stayed the same (it could actually move and make this scenerio worse I guess) and I want to cash out all my bitDoge, where does the extra money come from.  In the last month I have watched Doge sky rocket and now I think it is at its peak (which I really do) so I want to sell now.  So where is the surplus going to come from? 


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: BitcoinPopulation.com on September 29, 2014, 06:04:18 AM
Normally, the surplus should come from people on the other side of the trade. There needs to be someone providing liquidity on the other side.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: SomethingElse on September 29, 2014, 06:52:20 AM
Normally, the surplus should come from people on the other side of the trade. There needs to be someone providing liquidity on the other side.

200% is a nice surplus, but we all know things in this world can be very volatile.  Some things can go up a lot more.  Doge isn't the only coin that went up over 200% in the last month.  http://www.coinfinance.com/gainers_losers/30_days

So again, if somebody issues bitDoge, they only paid 200% to issue that.  If I buy it all because I think the issuer is stupid, and I win, Doge goes up 259% and I want to cash out, where does my extra 59% come from?


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: beyondbitcoinshow on September 29, 2014, 11:15:25 AM


If you want to listen to this stuff talked about some.

https://soundcloud.com/beyond-bitcoin-hangouts/beyond-bitcoin-community-dev-hangout-2014-9-26

https://soundcloud.com/beyond-bitcoin-hangouts/bitshares-community-and-developer-hangout-9-12-2014

https://soundcloud.com/beyond-bitcoin-hangouts/bitshares-community-and-developer-hangout-9-5-2014

The first hour or so usually has the lead dev/founder of Bitshares ecosystem discussing Bitshares X.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: CoinHoarder on September 29, 2014, 02:33:50 PM
Normally, the surplus should come from people on the other side of the trade. There needs to be someone providing liquidity on the other side.

200% is a nice surplus, but we all know things in this world can be very volatile.  Some things can go up a lot more.  Doge isn't the only coin that went up over 200% in the last month.  http://www.coinfinance.com/gainers_losers/30_days

So again, if somebody issues bitDoge, they only paid 200% to issue that.  If I buy it all because I think the issuer is stupid, and I win, Doge goes up 259% and I want to cash out, where does my extra 59% come from?

Edit: My brain isn't working today. :(


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: SomethingElse on September 29, 2014, 03:04:46 PM
Thank you for answering CoinHoarder.  So it makes sense that if a coin changes so much that an automatic margin call kicks in. 

So the way I understand Bitshares is it is a way for a person to put up money betting on a short, and then others can accept on the other position and try to go long. 


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: CoinHoarder on September 29, 2014, 03:22:29 PM
Thank you for answering CoinHoarder.  So it makes sense that if a coin changes so much that an automatic margin call kicks in.  

So the way I understand Bitshares is it is a way for a person to put up money betting on a short, and then others can accept on the other position and try to go long.  

Yes, but the whole system in its entirety has many benefits rather than just speculating on price movements.

Of course it allows people to make money by going short or long by speculating what the price of an asset and collateral will do.

bitFIAT is a good hedge against crypto bubbles.

It allows people to day trade or diversify their portfolio with cryptocoins, FIAT, stock, and commodities (gold, silver, oil, wheat, corn, etc) with no counterparty risk due to trusted third parties (centralized exchanges).

It allows someone that likes the idea of decentralized cryptocurrencies but doesn't like the volatility of them to still use them by storing their cryptocurrency in a more stable asset (bitFIAT).

It allows Bitassets to gain interest from trading fees.

It allows BTSX stake holders to earn dividends by the destruction of transaction fees. No more BTSX will be printed, so by destroying transaction fees it makes the cryptocurrency deflationary. It is one of the only cryptocoins that is truly deflationary, as Bitcoin/etc is still in its inflationary stage and once all Bitcoin's are mined the transaction fees are paid to miners and not destroyed.

You can hold your Bitcoins (or other slower cryptocoins) in bitBTC, earn interest, and have the benefits of an average of 5 second confirmation times that have more security of a 10 minute Bitcoin confirmation. DPoS is a fast and efficient consensus algorithm with 10 second block times which is convenient. Admittedly the infrastructure and payment processors aren't there yet... but this is a future benefit of the system and you can already do this with person to person transactions.

Hmm.. I'm probably forgetting something.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on September 29, 2014, 06:59:18 PM
Quote
You can hold your Bitcoins (or other slower cryptocoins) in bitBTC
But you can not "cash out" into bitcoin or any other cryptocoins, only into bitsharesX, right herr delegate?


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: CoinHoarder on September 29, 2014, 07:44:32 PM
Quote
You can hold your Bitcoins (or other slower cryptocoins) in bitBTC
But you can not "cash out" into bitcoin or any other cryptocoins, only into bitsharesX, right herr delegate?

Why would you want to? Most people buy Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as a speculative investment, not to go on a shopping spree. bitBTC and Bitassets are a better tool for speculative investments than the actual assets themselves. BTSX can give you leverage if you are bullish by shorting and less exposure when you are bearish by moving into bitFIAT, all without the need for trusted third parties. It is good for day traders as there is less Counterparty risk than you would have at a centralized exchange, and the Bitassets accrue interest which is good for both day traders and hodlers a like. It is also good for diversifying into hard metals and other commodities.

The infrastructure will be developed to allow you to use Bitassets more like a currency if you wanted by using multi coin payment gateways, currency exchanges, and multi coin payment processors. The point is that you don't need to deal with trusted third parties unless you want to buy something, use a service, or cash out into FIAT. Again, most people currently use cryptocurrencies as a speculative investment and BitsharesX does that better than other cryptocurrencies for the multiple reasons stated above. As for spending them, the infrastructure will get there in due time... the Bitcoin infrastructure wasn't built in a day.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on September 29, 2014, 09:29:37 PM
Quote
Insert Quote
Quote from: krach on Today at 06:59:18 PM
Quote
You can hold your Bitcoins (or other slower cryptocoins) in bitBTC
But you can not "cash out" into bitcoin or any other cryptocoins, only into bitsharesX, right herr delegate?

Why would you want to? Most people buy Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as a speculative investment, not to go on a shopping spree. bitBTC and Bitassets are a better tool for speculative investments than the actual assets themselves. BTSX can give you leverage if you are bullish by shorting and less exposure when you are bearish by moving into bitFIAT, all without the need for trusted third parties. It is good for day traders as there is less Counterparty risk than you would have at a centralized exchange, and the Bitassets accrue interest which is good for both day traders and hodlers a like. It is also good for diversifying into hard metals and other commodities.

The infrastructure will be developed to allow you to use Bitassets more like a currency if you wanted by using multi coin payment gateways, currency exchanges, and multi coin payment processors. The point is that you don't need to deal with trusted third parties unless you want to buy something, use a service, or cash out into FIAT. Again, most people currently use cryptocurrencies as a speculative investment and BitsharesX does that better than other cryptocurrencies for the multiple reasons stated above. As for spending them, the infrastructure will get there in due time... the Bitcoin infrastructure wasn't built in a day.

Hi,
Well I asked a real simple question to clear a few things up, guess delegates have issues with that. First the delgate said
Quote
You can hold your Bitcoins (or other slower cryptocoins) in bitBTC

Well no you cant. You are not holding any bitcoin, litecoin, doge, botsharesX or any other cryptocoin. It may be the value of that coin in bitsharesX but it is not that coin, therefore you are not "holding" it. This language is misleading.
Again, you can not cash out into USD, Bitcoin, Litecoin, Gold, Silver or anything else, only the value of that asset in bitsharesX.
If someone wants to or not is a different discussion.

Quote
bitBTC and Bitassets are a better tool for speculative investments than the actual assets themselve

Thanks for your opinon. Since you are delegate I would asume that you think bitshare anything is better than anything and can emulate anything.

Another thanks for explaining that you can go short and long ect, there are plenty of places where you can already do that, no it is not in the bitshares system and yes there is counterparty risk. The main thing is that you never ever ever mention the word risk when speaking of bitsharesX and oh yes there is some, of course you will say it is less, as expected.

Quote
It is also good for diversifying into hard metals and other commodities.
I strongly disagree, if you want to have metals, get physical metal. While you are at it if you want bitcoin then just get some bitcoin.
Quote
The point is that you don't need to deal with trusted third parties unless you want to buy something, use a service, or cash out into FIAT.
Yep


Again, there is no "holding"
bitcoin, gold, silver ,litecoin ,doge or anything else, it is only "held up" by the same value of bitsharesX and there is zero possiblity of getting the "asset" after the bit, "bitGOLD"=no gold "bitBitcoin" =no bitcoin

Yes you can speculate with it, and the whole system could colapse as a house of cards, other systems can too, but if you make extraordinary claims "ft.knox""bitcoin killer" etal then expect extraordinary debunking.



Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: SlyWax on September 29, 2014, 10:48:16 PM

Again, you can not cash out into USD, Bitcoin, Litecoin, Gold, Silver or anything else, only the value of that asset in bitsharesX.
If someone wants to or not is a different discussion.

If you want to cash out BitUSD to USD, you send your BitUSD to an exchange and you trade it for USD (witch should be around 1:1 when there will be liquidity).

But before that, you could have traded the BTSX/BitUSD or BitBTC/BitUSD pair multiple times with almost 0 fee, and with no "mtGox"(exchange bankrupt) risk. You still have the risk of the Bitshare network going down, but that's unlikely since it's decentralized. You have also the risk of the peg not holding, but that risk will fade when the liquidity will go up.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on September 29, 2014, 11:17:53 PM
Quote
If you want to cash out BitUSD to USD, you send your BitUSD to an exchange and you trade it for USD (witch should be around 1:1 when there will be liquidity).

But before that, you could have traded the BTSX/BitUSD or BitBTC/BitUSD pair multiple times with almost 0 fee, and with no "mtGox"(exchange bankrupt) risk. You still have the risk of the Bitshare network going down, but that's unlikely since it's decentralized. You have also the risk of the peg not olding, but that risk will fade when the liquidity will go up.

Yes just as you do with bitcoin when you want USD, except Bitcoin doesnt have  the three letters USD next to it. All the other trading back and forth has nothing to do with it.

bitsharesX goes down a lot in value, could be hard to "cash out". If you want to cash out BitBitcoin, BitGold,BitBitbitbit, Bitcorn or BitWater then you would have to "cash out" to bitsharesX not bitUSD but you could cash out to bisharesX and then buy some bitusd and then cash out at a third party as with any other crypto.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: brekyrself on September 29, 2014, 11:23:48 PM
Quote
If you want to cash out BitUSD to USD, you send your BitUSD to an exchange and you trade it for USD (witch should be around 1:1 when there will be liquidity).

But before that, you could have traded the BTSX/BitUSD or BitBTC/BitUSD pair multiple times with almost 0 fee, and with no "mtGox"(exchange bankrupt) risk. You still have the risk of the Bitshare network going down, but that's unlikely since it's decentralized. You have also the risk of the peg not olding, but that risk will fade when the liquidity will go up.

Yes just as you do with bitcoin when you want USD, except Bitcoin doesnt have  the three letters USD next to it. All the other trading back and forth has nothing to do with it.

bitsharesX goes down a lot in value, could be hard to "cash out". If you want to cash out BitBitcoin, BitGold,BitBitbitbit, Bitcorn or BitWater then you would have to "cash out" to bitsharesX not bitUSD but you could cash out to bisharesX and then buy some bitusd and then cash out at a third party as with any other crypto.


It's simply too early to tell if a supporting infrastructure will be built around BTSX such has been about BTC.  IF the pegs hold, software matures, the infrastructure could be built and support exactly what your looking for.  Only time will tell and we should be happy people are pushing the Bitcoin ideology to the next level.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: SlyWax on September 29, 2014, 11:50:22 PM
Quote
If you want to cash out BitUSD to USD, you send your BitUSD to an exchange and you trade it for USD (witch should be around 1:1 when there will be liquidity).

But before that, you could have traded the BTSX/BitUSD or BitBTC/BitUSD pair multiple times with almost 0 fee, and with no "mtGox"(exchange bankrupt) risk. You still have the risk of the Bitshare network going down, but that's unlikely since it's decentralized. You have also the risk of the peg not holding, but that risk will fade when the liquidity will go up.

Yes just as you do with bitcoin when you want USD, except Bitcoin doesnt have  the three letters USD next to it. All the other trading back and forth has nothing to do with it.

bitsharesX goes down a lot in value, could be hard to "cash out". If you want to cash out BitBitcoin, BitGold,BitBitbitbit, Bitcorn or BitWater then you would have to "cash out" to bitsharesX not bitUSD but you could cash out to bisharesX and then buy some bitusd and then cash out at a third party as with any other crypto.


You did'nt get it, BTSX is like Bitcoin as a currency it fluctuate in value against the dollar with great volatility,
whereas BitUSD just oscillate around the 1 BitUSD = 1 USD peg.
And it's already pretty flat : https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_usd (https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_usd) even with no volume.

PS : As a side note, you should learn how to quote since you are a senior member. ;)


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on September 30, 2014, 12:31:50 AM
Quote
You did'nt get it, BTSX is like Bitcoin as a currency it fluctuate in value against the dollar with great volatility,
whereas BitUSD just oscillate around the 1 BitUSD = 1 USD peg.
And it's already pretty flat : https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_usd even with no volume.

PS : As a side note, you should learn how to quote since you are a senior member. Wink

No, I get it, however if you cash out "BITGOLD" then it is backed by bitsharesX and not bitusd, or am I wrong?
And bitUSD is backed by ............. BitsharesX


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: sportscliche on September 30, 2014, 12:41:43 AM
No, I get it, however if you cash out "BITGOLD" then it is backed by bitsharesX and not bitusd, or am I wrong?
And bitUSD is backed by ............. BitsharesX

krach, you understand it correctly.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: CoinHoarder on September 30, 2014, 03:52:35 AM
First of all you keep bringing up everywhere I am a Delegate as if it brings more credibility to your statements and less to mine and that is silly. It is like saying that you are a Bitcoin user, so all of your opinions are worthless because you want them to go up in value. If everyone used such logic then everyone's statements here, no matter how honest or credible, would be worth nothing and it is a slippery slope. Why don't you inform us of your cryptocurrency holdings so we can know which statements of yours we can ignore using the same logic?

I never would of got into BitsharesX, or become a delegate for that matter, if I didn't really believe it will be successful for multiple reasons. It is literally the 2nd Alt coin I have supported in two years of being involved with the cryptocurrency community. It's not like I am out shilling for every coin that comes out, pump and dumps and all. You are basically saying if you use or invest in something you lose your ability to rationalize reality, however I actually have the ability to admit when I am wrong and am here giving my honest and genuine opinions on different issues. BitsharesX is still rather new and it is basically the only alt coin I care about, so I have spent most of my time talking about it and helping others understand it. I am sorry if this upsets you, but it is a free world and luckily Theymos is not a nazi.

It has also attracted it's fair share of haters... Cough... and most of the Bitshares community only hangs out on our forums, so I feel like it's my duty to stick up for it. That is actually part of my delegate campaign, to help new users and defend BTSX from FUD. You have been following me around for about a month now and ragging on BitsharesX at any chance you get, and I'm not sure what your issue is but you have pretty much attacked every aspect of it as if it is a complete scam, and then you act as if your opinion is more credible to mine by bringing up that I am a delegate. I guess this argument is just your reason to rag on BTSX today, so I will address your issues, but I don't understand why you hate BitsharesX so much. Example: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=763383.0

Quote
Insert Quote
Quote from: krach on Today at 06:59:18 PM
Quote
You can hold your Bitcoins (or other slower cryptocoins) in bitBTC
But you can not "cash out" into bitcoin or any other cryptocoins, only into bitsharesX, right herr delegate?

Why would you want to? Most people buy Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as a speculative investment, not to go on a shopping spree. bitBTC and Bitassets are a better tool for speculative investments than the actual assets themselves. BTSX can give you leverage if you are bullish by shorting and less exposure when you are bearish by moving into bitFIAT, all without the need for trusted third parties. It is good for day traders as there is less Counterparty risk than you would have at a centralized exchange, and the Bitassets accrue interest which is good for both day traders and hodlers a like. It is also good for diversifying into hard metals and other commodities.

The infrastructure will be developed to allow you to use Bitassets more like a currency if you wanted by using multi coin payment gateways, currency exchanges, and multi coin payment processors. The point is that you don't need to deal with trusted third parties unless you want to buy something, use a service, or cash out into FIAT. Again, most people currently use cryptocurrencies as a speculative investment and BitsharesX does that better than other cryptocurrencies for the multiple reasons stated above. As for spending them, the infrastructure will get there in due time... the Bitcoin infrastructure wasn't built in a day.

Hi,
Well I asked a real simple question to clear a few things up, guess delegates have issues with that. First the delgate said
Quote
You can hold your Bitcoins (or other slower cryptocoins) in bitBTC

Well no you cant. You are not holding any bitcoin, litecoin, doge, botsharesX or any other cryptocoin. It may be the value of that coin in bitsharesX but it is not that coin, therefore you are not "holding" it. This language is misleading.
Again, you can not cash out into USD, Bitcoin, Litecoin, Gold, Silver or anything else, only the value of that asset in bitsharesX.
If someone wants to or not is a different discussion.

I fail to see the difference if you are keeping your cryptocoins and commodities as investments for long periods of time, or are day trading them. If you wanted to, you could cash them out to BTSX at any time and convert them into anything you like.

As to cryptocoins if the infrastructure is developed properly, then there would be no reason to ever want to do that because you could do anything with Bitassets that you could do with Bitcoin if you wanted.

Quote
bitBTC and Bitassets are a better tool for speculative investments than the actual assets themselve

Thanks for your opinon. Since you are delegate I would asume that you think bitshare anything is better than anything and can emulate anything.

Another thanks for explaining that you can go short and long ect, there are plenty of places where you can already do that, no it is not in the bitshares system and yes there is counterparty risk.
I just think there is more counterparty risk using centralized exchanges and services. Over the years how many of them have scammed customers, been "hacked", or defaulted? A lot of them..

Yes there are places where you can receive more leverage and reduce exposure, but all of them are centralized services and a decentralized autonomous company is not ever going to steal from you, get fake "hacked", or default assuming the market peg works as intended.

The main thing is that you never ever ever mention the word risk when speaking of bitsharesX and oh yes there is some, of course you will say it is less, as expected.

Of course there are risks, just like any other cryptocurrency, I thought there being some risk is implied. It is that I think there is less risk trading bitassets than trading on centralized services as to why I say things like this.

The price of BitsharesX could crash and Bitassets become under collateralized, but I look at this an an improbability. By crash I mean going down a lot and not your normal crypto bubble. The BTSX market cap is 62.5 million and there are currently only about $460,000 worth of Bitassets that exist today. Meaning it would need to crash by 93% to become under collateralized. Call me naive, but I think this is unlikely to happen.

In the event that a bubble does occur, people can diversify into bitFIAT to reduce the amplitude of the bubble and reduce your exposure, and that is unlike any other cryptocurrency where you would need to actually sell them to reduce exposure which creates downward pressure on the market. Hedging against bubbles while not putting any downward pressure on BTSX is one of its greatest features. Downward pressure really only needs to occur when you would like to exit the Bitshares ecosystem, as you have already mentioned.

Another reason why I think it is unlikely to lose 93% of its current value is because of the use of DPOS and the fact that there is no new money being printed like there is in most other cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin included. Due to its deflationary properties and the very low cost of maintaining the security of the network through Delegates, no money has to come into the ecosystem for it to retain its value. In fact if no money goes in or out, the value would go up as transaction fees are destroyed. One BTSX has more buying power than it did when BTSX first came out as there are less of them, this is one of the only cryptocoins that can say it is truly deflationary.

Quote
It is also good for diversifying into hard metals and other commodities.
I strongly disagree, if you want to have metals, get physical metal. While you are at it if you want bitcoin then just get some bitcoin.


Again, there is no "holding"
bitcoin, gold, silver ,litecoin ,doge or anything else, it is only "held up" by the same value of bitsharesX and there is zero possiblity of getting the "asset" after the bit, "bitGOLD"=no gold "bitBitcoin" =no bitcoin

Yes you can speculate with it, and the whole system could colapse as a house of cards, other systems can too, but if you make extraordinary claims "ft.knox""bitcoin killer" etal then expect extraordinary debunking.
To each their own, this is just your opinion as the quoted is my opinion. It seems you are more risk adverse and I am more risk prone. I would prefer to keep my metals and cryptos in Bitasset form as then it is more easily transferable, it gains interest, and it is easier to convert into other value via other Bitassets or exiting the Bitshares ecosystem all together.

That being said, diversification is implied with all of my statements as it is just smart investing. I am not trying to convince everyone to invest everything they have into BTSX, as that would be stupid and your right there are some risks just with anything else for that matter. Even that money in the bank backed by FDIC has risk, as if something extreme were to happen the government couldn't afford to bail us all out without extremely diluting the money supply by printing more money. I don't think anyone should invest more than they are comfortable losing in any asset, currency, or commodity and I apologize if I made it seem that way. I am assuming everyone already knows this as it is pretty much common sense.

Quote
The point is that you don't need to deal with trusted third parties unless you want to buy something, use a service, or cash out into FIAT.
Yep
Again, as it currently exists BitsharesX is better for day trading, diversifying, or hodling. It doesn't mean that the infrastructure won't develop around it in due time though. There is very little Ecommerce going on with cryptocurrencies anyways as it is mostly speculators. For people like this, BitsharesX is a great solution as it exists today. You can always keep your spending money in BTC or anything you'd like. And lastly, do not put more in BitsharesX you can afford to lose. Again, I thought this was common sense but apparently you want me to say it every time I talk about BTSX? Looking through your posts it doesn't seem as if you state other cryptocurrencies are risky with every post you make on them, so I am not sure why you are requesting I do something you don't even do yourself?


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: CoinHoarder on September 30, 2014, 03:54:20 AM
Quote
You did'nt get it, BTSX is like Bitcoin as a currency it fluctuate in value against the dollar with great volatility,
whereas BitUSD just oscillate around the 1 BitUSD = 1 USD peg.
And it's already pretty flat : https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_usd even with no volume.

PS : As a side note, you should learn how to quote since you are a senior member. Wink

No, I get it, however if you cash out "BITGOLD" then it is backed by bitsharesX and not bitusd, or am I wrong?
And bitUSD is backed by ............. BitsharesX

At least it is backed by SOMETHING.  ;D

(Alluding to FIAT and fractional reserve banking)


Title: Re: Bitshares - The Great Satan on the Blockchain
Post by: NewLiberty on September 30, 2014, 06:23:01 AM

Statements such as:

...

do not inspire confidence, I have to say. They rather tell me that people endorsing this system do have intentions I am not willing to share.

They do not want to change the status quo but rather repeat history and pull out money from people.


As usual I am concerned, so the best way out I know is asking. :)

"they" here is a random pumping zealot, not a member of the team

This zealot gave really the first explanation of it I've seen, that quickly made sense.
A market driven distributed exchange pipeline of crypto to fiat and back.  Not bad.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: NewLiberty on September 30, 2014, 06:34:24 AM

In the event that a bubble does occur, people can diversify into bitFIAT to reduce the amplitude of the bubble and reduce your exposure, and that is unlike any other cryptocurrency where you would need to actually sell them to reduce exposure which creates downward pressure on the market.

Can you describe the difference you see between "diversify into" and "actually sell".


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: CoinHoarder on September 30, 2014, 07:15:41 AM

In the event that a bubble does occur, people can diversify into bitFIAT to reduce the amplitude of the bubble and reduce your exposure, and that is unlike any other cryptocurrency where you would need to actually sell them to reduce exposure which creates downward pressure on the market.

Can you describe the difference you see between "diversify into" and "actually sell".

Let's say you think a cryptocoin is at the top of a mini bubble and will likely go down in value in the short term.

With most cryptocurrencies you would need to sell them on the market to reduce your exposure which creates downward pressure on the market. Money exits the cryptocurrency's ecosystem for another cryptocurrency or FIAT. You could do so off of services or exchanges, but it is not convenient nor quick, and has counterparty risk involved.

With BitsharesX you can instead buy bitFIAT which are backed by BTSX, and thus there is no downward pressure put on the market and no money actually leaves the BTSX ecosystem. Yet, the end result is similar as you still reduce exposure to a downward price swing. There is no reason for the price to go down unless someone wants to exit the BitsharesX ecosystem all together.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on September 30, 2014, 08:12:01 AM
Quote
First of all you keep bringing up everywhere I am a Delegate as if it brings more credibility to your statements and less to mine and that is silly.
No it is not silly, just come out and say that you are a delegate from the get go, it is silly to let people know that you are a delegate?
Quote
. It is like saying that you are a Bitcoin user, so all of your opinions are worthless because you want them to go up in value.
A bitcoin user is the same as being a delegate? No, that is silly.
Quote
Why don't you inform us of your cryptocurrency holdings so we can know which statements of yours we can ignore using the same logic?

Again being a delegate is different than being a simply "holder" of a currency.


Quote
You are basically saying if you use or invest in something you lose your ability to rationalize reality, however I actually have the ability to admit when I am wrong and am here giving my honest and genuine opinions on different issues. BitsharesX is still rather new and it is basically the only alt coin I care about, so I have spent most of my time talking about it and helping others understand it. I am sorry if this upsets you, but it is a free world and luckily Theymos is not a nazi.
No, I am simply pointing out common misconceptions about bitsharesX, there is no need for Ft. Knox because nothing would be in there anyway except bitsharesX.
Quote
That is actually part of my delegate campaign, to help new users and defend BTSX from FUD
Pointing out big markeing statements and that saying "hold bitcoin in bitsharesX" has nothing to do with a bitcoin private key is FUD I guess. Make sure to include the word "nazi" in your campaign it is  great way to attack people that do not agree with you, bonus points for you!

Quote
I don't understand why you hate BitsharesX so much.

I dont, primarly I find the marketing misleading and not one person can explain how the VC company that funded the project makes any money, delegate please explain that,why is this contract not embeded in the bitsharesX blockchian or anything similar?

BotsharesX is a fun project, your own M1A1, a bitcoin killer, trade potato chipsX, or even bitDIRT! Real world derivatives!

-
Quote
I fail to see the difference if you are keeping your cryptocoins and commodities as investments for long periods of time, or are day trading them.
You do not have a private key and you are not/ can not run a full node of the coin in question. A very big difference. Having a copy of the blockchain of said coin is fundimental. bitBTC or bit(insert GOLD LITECOIN or anything else) are derivatives, it is like saying gold bullion and gold derivatives are the same, no difference. I disagree.


Quote
If you wanted to, you could cash them out to BTSX at any time and convert them into anything you like.
Yes, this is exactly what I stated.
Guess what? When you want to cash them out to get USD then you have counterparty risk, as with any other coin.
So in the end your bitGold can only be cashed out for BTSX then you figure out what to do with the BTSX, to get gold you would need to sell btsx at an exchnage for USD and then buy gold with USD somewhere. These are derivatives that promote holding by paying dividends, in .... BTSX.


Quote
you could do anything with Bitassets that you could do with Bitcoin if you wanted.
I disagree again, I can not look up anything in the bitcoin blockchain in my client with bitBTC, I have not tried maybe you can tell us if you can.

Quote
I just think there is more counterparty risk using centralized exchanges and services. Over the years how many of them have scammed customers, been "hacked", or defaulted? A lot of them..

I agree, however you still have this risk when exiting the BTSX system for the "real world" asset that the derivatives represent if you choose to do so. The reply "why would you want to" which is another question all together.

Quote
Of course there are risks, just like any other cryptocurrency, I thought there being some risk is implied. It is that I think there is less risk trading bitassets than trading on centralized services as to why I say things like this.
The risk is that the whole system colapses due to a crash, manipulation/collusion of delegates. Of course both are quote "unlikely" at this stage in general they are both totaly dismissed.  

Quote
In the event that a bubble does occur, people can diversify into bitFIAT to reduce the amplitude of the bubble and reduce your exposure, and that is unlike any other cryptocurrency where you would need to actually sell them to reduce exposure which creates downward pressure on the market. Hedging against bubbles while not putting any downward pressure on BTSX is one of its greatest features. Downward pressure really only needs to occur when you would like to exit the Bitshares ecosystem, as you have already mentioned.

Yep, the bubble continues to fly as long as no helium exits.
Quote
I don't think anyone should invest more than they are comfortable losing in any asset, currency, or commodity and I apologize if I made it seem that way.
BTSX is marketed as the most stable thing ever, it is misleading.


Quote
. Again, I thought this was common sense but apparently you want me to say it every time I talk about BTSX? Looking through your posts it doesn't seem as if you state other cryptocurrencies are risky with every post you make on them, so I am not sure why you are requesting I do something you don't even do yourself?


Hi,
Im not promoting any coin, you are. Therefore there is not the same standard that you imply. I would hope it would be common sense that a delgate should be held to a different standard when out promoting the project- coin 2.0 thingie or whatever you want to call it. When I do post or talk about trading I always tell people to do thier own due dilligance ,as a minimum. Your position as a delegate is similar to being in a higher level of a company, it would be great if you had just come out with that while speaking about BTSX that is simply more transparent. Attacking the messenger is an interesting tactic but doest zero to move the discussion along, it in fact distracts from the main topic. Even if I did not inform people of risk when doing anything remotely like give advice on a coin , would that affect or apply to what you are doing? No.


Quote
your own personal ft. knox

Ft. Knox is suppost to be full of physical assets, bitsharesX has zero to do with physical assets.

Quote
Imagine all the properties that make Bitcoin so revolutionary combined with the price stability of the dollar. This is bitUSD, the first truly stable crypto-currency and only available on BitSharesX.

No risk , totaly stable, just ask risky as holding USD
-
Another issue is that bitsharesX community members see themselves as , and I quote: "Crypto Masters"

You see I like the tech behind bitshares, but this kind of attitude I dont like.

So delegate, please tell us how does
BitFund.PE
make money with this whole thing?
Is the contract somewhere embeded in the bitshares blockchain ,if not, why not?


Call derivatives, derivatives

crypto derivatives

if people want to trade derivatives, then it is a good platform.

However if you want the real coin or other asset (bitPotatoschips ect)
then it is not suitable.

Holding phyiscal assets (metals, land ect) has merit and is true diverisvication, since there is zero exposure to crypto.

Trading derivatives also has merit but should not be sold as a subsuite for holding a bitcoin private key or any other asset, you can not do the same things with a derivative as with the real asset.

I dont hate bitsharesX , im not following you, you just happen to pop up in the forum in 2 main sections. I would have never replied if you had not said that you can hold bitcoin in bitsharesX which to me is very misleading.





Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: chryspano on September 30, 2014, 12:59:32 PM
Nice trolling miner krach but lets see for how long you can swim...


Quote
Those who are technically objective will find us all by themselves.  Those who are blindly loyal to a crypto tribe will sink or swim with that tribe (while their wealth migrates to us without them).  This is an acceptable result.
quote source and nice reading http://bitshares.org/stans-thoughts-on-dpos-and-bitcoin/


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on September 30, 2014, 01:22:05 PM
Quote
Nice trolling miner krach but lets see for how long you can swim...


Quote
Those who are technically objective will find us all by themselves.  Those who are blindly loyal to a crypto tribe will sink or swim with that tribe (while their wealth migrates to us without them).  This is an acceptable result.
quote source and nice reading http://bitshares.org/stans-thoughts-on-dpos-and-bitcoin/

Hi,
Im not trolling. Trolling would be making pictures like at the start of this thread, or calling people names, or attacking the messenger and not the message. Dismissing disucsssion as trolling is another way to destract people away from the content and instead attack the messenger. Simply pointing out that you can not do everything with a derivitive that you can do with the asset that it represents is by no means trolling.

The problem with the quote is that it wishes to devorce the marketing done by BTSX and trys to put it forward that the "technically objective" will "find" btsx. However the marketing is going to lure people, for the most part, and it is, like most marketing, full of marketing talk and big claims and does nothing to attract people that are technicaly objective, you mean to tell me markeing is objective? I hope not. It is even very very possible that people are technical objective and they just do not agree with a lot of what is going on at btsx. The quote assumes that if you are objective then you must be with btsx, all others are not, typical tribalistic mumbo jumbo.

The second issue with the quote is that a "crypto tribe" is exactly what bitsharesX is, so people should move from one tribe to another, that is real innovation! It is so bad that people have to write things like "Im not being tribalist but..." before explaining things as well as calling themselves "crypto masters" not to mention the highly tribalistic us vs. them thread "bitsharesX is bringing bitcoin and litecoin down". This is the essence of this crypto tibalism that the blog is talking about.

Quote
Bitcoin is just a checking account in a new financial services industry.
yes that is how the btsx tribe views it, must be objective since there is zero vested interest in the demise of bitcoin, overtly, covertly and underlying.


Again I ask ,
Quote
how does
BitFund.PE
make money with this whole thing?
Is the contract somewhere embeded in the bitshares blockchain ,if not, why not?

Maybe there is a fine and transparent answer to this, just havent found one so far.



Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: NewLiberty on September 30, 2014, 01:29:56 PM

In the event that a bubble does occur, people can diversify into bitFIAT to reduce the amplitude of the bubble and reduce your exposure, and that is unlike any other cryptocurrency where you would need to actually sell them to reduce exposure which creates downward pressure on the market.

Can you describe the difference you see between "diversify into" and "actually sell".

Let's say you think a cryptocoin is at the top of a mini bubble and will likely go down in value in the short term.

With most cryptocurrencies you would need to sell them on the market to reduce your exposure which creates downward pressure on the market. Money exits the cryptocurrency's ecosystem for another cryptocurrency or FIAT. You could do so off of services or exchanges, but it is not convenient nor quick, and has counterparty risk involved.

With BitsharesX you can instead buy bitFIAT which are backed by BTSX, and thus there is no downward pressure put on the market and no money actually leaves the BTSX ecosystem. Yet, the end result is similar as you still reduce exposure to a downward price swing. There is no reason for the price to go down unless someone wants to exit the BitsharesX ecosystem all together.


In your "diversify into" example.  With what am I buying bitFIAT?  Is this new investment?  Do I still own the BitsharesX that I am expecting to decline in value?  If I do not still own the BTSX, who does?  Why does my selling them not cause downward pressure?

I am not yet finding any difference between "diversify into" and "actually sell" other than "diversify into" includes also purchasing bitFIAT which from the sounds of this "backing" system may create wash sale tax loss implications for me, increasing my risk and limiting my gains due to the way that taxes work.
http://www.sec.gov/answers/wash.htm


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on September 30, 2014, 02:15:57 PM
All I see in this thread are CoinHoarder giving level-headed, unbiased arguments and krach flopping around trolling BTSX and attacking CoinHoarder for being a BTSX delegate, as if there's something wrong with that.

Krach's opinion of BTSX obviously won't change, so there's no point in flopping along with him.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on September 30, 2014, 03:12:13 PM
I never attacked him. I simply pointed out that he is a delgate. You would think that a delagte would simply come out and say "I happen to be a delagte" but that was not the case. Is that an attack? I agree with many things that he said, however it simply is not true that you can do all things with bitBTC that you can with bitcoin ect. I guess resorting to using the word nazi is level headed.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: NewLiberty on September 30, 2014, 03:13:20 PM
All I see in this thread are CoinHoarder giving level-headed, unbiased arguments and krach flopping around trolling BTSX and attacking CoinHoarder for being a BTSX delegate, as if there's something wrong with that.

Krach's opinion of BTSX obviously won't change, so there's no point in flopping along with him.

I am working to understand it.  It seems to have some implications beyond what might be obvious.  I don't really care what roles and interests individuals have, what I care about is the technology and some-but-not-all of their dialog is helpful for my understanding.
It seems to be potentially REALLY useful, but I can't seem to wrap my head around it all from the descriptions, use of novel terms, and use of existing terms with what may be new meanings.
I may have to wait until I can look at the code.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on September 30, 2014, 03:22:30 PM
I never attacked him. I simply pointed out that he is a delgate. You would think that a delagte would simply come out and say "I happen to be a delagte" but that was not the case. Is that an attack? I agree with many things that he said, however it simply is not true that you can do all things with bitBTC that you can with bitcoin ect. I guess resorting to using the word nazi is level headed.


Fair points. Agreed.

However, BTSX is still very, very young. It seems like a lot of your criticisms of it won't matter at all once BitShares reaches full potential and proper liquidity is in place. The future possibilities are immense, and I'm not going to let minor growing pains during its first few months of existence deter me from investing in opportunity where I see it.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: brekyrself on September 30, 2014, 03:39:49 PM
I never attacked him. I simply pointed out that he is a delgate. You would think that a delagte would simply come out and say "I happen to be a delagte" but that was not the case. Is that an attack? I agree with many things that he said, however it simply is not true that you can do all things with bitBTC that you can with bitcoin ect. I guess resorting to using the word nazi is level headed.


What difference does it make who is a delegate?  You make it sound like delegates are appointed kings or royalty, anyone can be a delegate just like anyone can mine PoW.  Even more so if someone does not do a good job as a delegate, such as computer up time, running the latest software, publishing price feeds often, they will be voted out.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on September 30, 2014, 03:55:01 PM
Quote
What difference does it make who is a delegate?
Just shows a clear point of view and vested interest.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: CoinHoarder on September 30, 2014, 04:39:05 PM

In the event that a bubble does occur, people can diversify into bitFIAT to reduce the amplitude of the bubble and reduce your exposure, and that is unlike any other cryptocurrency where you would need to actually sell them to reduce exposure which creates downward pressure on the market.

Can you describe the difference you see between "diversify into" and "actually sell".

Let's say you think a cryptocoin is at the top of a mini bubble and will likely go down in value in the short term.

With most cryptocurrencies you would need to sell them on the market to reduce your exposure which creates downward pressure on the market. Money exits the cryptocurrency's ecosystem for another cryptocurrency or FIAT. You could do so off of services or exchanges, but it is not convenient nor quick, and has counterparty risk involved.

With BitsharesX you can instead buy bitFIAT which are backed by BTSX, and thus there is no downward pressure put on the market and no money actually leaves the BTSX ecosystem. Yet, the end result is similar as you still reduce exposure to a downward price swing. There is no reason for the price to go down unless someone wants to exit the BitsharesX ecosystem all together.


In your "diversify into" example.  With what am I buying bitFIAT?  Is this new investment?  Do I still own the BitsharesX that I am expecting to decline in value?  If I do not still own the BTSX, who does?  Why does my selling them not cause downward pressure?

I am not yet finding any difference between "diversify into" and "actually sell" other than "diversify into" includes also purchasing bitFIAT which from the sounds of this "backing" system may create wash sale tax loss implications for me, increasing my risk and limiting my gains due to the way that taxes work.
http://www.sec.gov/answers/wash.htm

You ask some good questions, I will try to answer them the best I can but I'm afraid I don't have all the answers.

You could buy bitUSD, bitEUR, or bitCNY in the above example and it would all work similar. There may be some other bitFIAT Bitassets coming out, I am not sure. They are assets that resemble the value of their real life counterparts through a complicated market pegging system.

All Bitassets are backed by 2x the collateral from the shorts, by matching a short with a long. They do not come into existence any other way, and by matching a sell with a buy from an already existing Bitasset, the collateral is still there. So, you might could look at it as still owning the BTSX you sold for Bitassets, but I am not a tax lawyer.

Technically the short position is the one that "owns" your BTSX when you buy a Bitasset, as they are are the ones putting up the collateral. I could be wrong on this, but I think the BTSX backing the Bitassets are held in a multi signature account in the back end of the decentralized exchange.

After thinking about it more, selling BTSX for a Bitasset does technically create downward pressure on the BTSX market and upward pressure on the Bitasset market, however I think that downward pressure on BTSX is negligible. Perhaps my example wasn't clear, I will try again.

By selling 1 Bitcoin for FIAT on an exchange it definitely creates downward pressure, I think we can both agree on that. 1 Bitcoin worth of FIAT leaves the Bitcoin ecosystem completely until you buy back into Bitcoin.

By selling 1 BTSX for Bitassets, I think the downward pressure is negligible as there is 2 BTSX worth of whatever Bitasset you purchased tied up as collateral, so no BTSX leaves the ecosystem and an extra one is tied up with collateral. If anything a Bitasset coming into existence bolsters the market cap as 2x the BTSX is being held by collateral and is not sold on the market. My point is that Bitassets are a component of BTSX, an asset traded within it on a decentralized exchange (although centralized exchanges can and do trade them as well) and when selling BTSX for a Bitasset it doesn't detract from the market cap of BTSX. Since Bitassets are backed by BTSX and they are a token traded within it, no money ever leaves the BTSX ecosystem by buying them. Am I completely wrong on this? It makes sense to me.

Technically, all Bitassets are backed by BTSX, so you could look at it as not being a new investment, but I could also see it being the other way and admittedly no one really knows possible tax implications as the technology is still pretty new. There are some opposing opinions floating around about what (if any) taxes will apply when trading Bitassets. It makes sense to me that it would not be a taxable event until you spend the bitassets on goods or services or cash them out into real FIAT and realize capital gains as trading from Bitassets to BTSX is similar to crypto to crypto trading. This seems to be the general consensus, but I honestly have no idea if this is accurate or not. I have asked your question in the only place I've seen tax discussion, maybe someone will be able to shed more light on it. A lot of people don't seem to think it is a taxable event, but I have seen at least one mention of the Wash rule in the replies to the link just posted in this thread to Stan's post. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9308.0


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: CoinHoarder on September 30, 2014, 04:42:32 PM
Quote
What difference does it make who is a delegate?
Just shows a clear point of view and vested interest.

You are ignoring your own vested interest... Everyone has vested interest whether a delegate or not, owner of Bitcoin, owner of Bitcoin service or business, owner of X coin, developer of Y coin, or a miner of Z coin. Everyone has vested interest on these forums, yet do not state them with every post they make. By reading my posts it is blatantly obvious I have some sort of vested interest in BTSX, and your request for me to give a disclaimer with every post is unreasonable. You would be lying if you say you don't have any vested interest yourself, yet I don't see you stating clearly what your vested interests are with every post you make, so I don't see why you require the same of me. Do you write "Bitcoiner" on your forehead so people immediately know when you talk about it you have vested interest?

I am not selling anything here, I am helping people understand BTSX meanwhile trying to come to a deeper understanding of it myself. Conversing about the different facets of BTSX helps me learn by reinforcing things I already know, thinking about new things I haven't before, and hearing opposing opinions. Maybe BTSX is not as great as I think it is and one of you will help me see some glaring issue. I haven't seen anything yet along these lines. Although there is some risk involved with Bitassets, I see it as being negligible and akin to the risks (vulnerabilities) that exist with Bitcoin but are unlikely to happen.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on September 30, 2014, 05:25:34 PM
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You are ignoring your own vested interest...
No, im not promoting anything in this thread but you are, of course everyone has a vested interest and I am pointing out what yours is, is that bad or wrong? Hell it should even show how commited you are to the BTSX tribe.  I would asume that you could tell us how much the VC company makes from all this since you are a delagte, guess not.

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and your request for me to give a disclaimer with every post is unreasonable.
Hi,
When and where did I request you to do that?


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anyone can be a delegate
anyone can run for president


sounds legit


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: brekyrself on September 30, 2014, 05:36:12 PM
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You are ignoring your own vested interest...
No, im not promoting anything in this thread but you are, of course everyone has a vested interest and I am pointing out what yours is, is that bad or wrong? Hell it should even show how commited you are to the BTSX tribe.  I would asume that you could tell us how much the VC company makes from all this since you are a delagte, guess not.

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and your request for me to give a disclaimer with every post is unreasonable.
Hi,
When and where did I request you to do that?


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anyone can be a delegate
anyone can run for president


sounds legit


Clearly from these comments you do not understand the role of a delegate...  Why would a random delegate/miner know how much some VC company made or makes based upon their initial investment?  Your the one that has done zero due diligence all the while CoinHoarder is trying to explain things the best he can. 

Please bring some technical talk to the table and quit with the opinions.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: CoinHoarder on September 30, 2014, 05:44:26 PM
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You are ignoring your own vested interest...
No, im not promoting anything in this thread but you are, of course everyone has a vested interest and I am pointing out what yours is, is that bad or wrong? Hell it should even show how commited you are to the BTSX tribe.  I would asume that you could tell us how much the VC company makes from all this since you are a delagte, guess not.

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and your request for me to give a disclaimer with every post is unreasonable.
Hi,
When and where did I request you to do that?


Quote
anyone can be a delegate
anyone can run for president


sounds legit


I will respond to your previous post, including the VC question, give me more time as your post is long, my laptop is broken (dead charger I think) and I am on an iPad, and I have been doing other things/answering other questions.

You are using the term delegate as a derogatory term which, according to you, affects my credibility meanwhile throwing in subtle jabs at BTSX, BTSX marketing, me, and the people behind it. Meanwhile I am here offering my honest interpretation of the technology and my honest opinions, you are acting as if I'm not. If you want to talk about the technology then let's do it, but you are being hostile towards everything having to do with BTSX and it is getting old fast.

I am not selling anything more so than you are trying to discredit it. You don't think vested interest ever plays a part in discrediting something or the people that support that thing? Maybe you should enlighten us on your vested interest so things are clear? Everyone already knows mine as I have been talking about Bitshares for months now, and it is the reason I don't need to explain it with every post. You state you don't need to share your vested interest as you are not selling anything, but you certainly are attacking something in which vested interest plays into your mindset and tact at least a little bit.

A delegate doesn't have any more or less vested interest than an owner of X coin, developer of Y coin, or a miner of Z coin as I said. You make it seem as if I am some powerful being, but in reality I have just as much say as anyone in the Bitshares community and can be voted out at any time as I own very little stake in it. I just believe in the technology. If you look through my posting history, historically I talk about and stick up for things I believe in, and Bitshares is one of those things.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on September 30, 2014, 06:43:31 PM
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Clearly from these comments you do not understand the role of a delegate...  Why would a random delegate/miner know how much some VC company made or makes based upon their initial investment?  Your the one that has done zero due diligence all the while CoinHoarder is trying to explain things the best he can.

Please bring some technical talk to the table and quit with the opinions.

It is called a retorical question, the thing is we nor a delgate has this info, it seems.

I have brought plenty of technical talk. Asking questions are not opinions. Please tell me what opinions you are speaking of.


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You are using the term delegate as a derogatory term which, according to you, affects my credibility meanwhile throwing in subtle jabs at BTSX, BTSX marketing, me, and the people behind it.

I am not using it as a derogatory term, I am merly pointing out that you are in fact a delegate. If pointing out issues with BTSX, or the marketing behind it is "taking jabs" then that is fine. I am in no way attacking you as a person or the people behind "it", would this include quotes from the bitsharestalk forum "crypto masters" "bitcoin killer" ect? Are you trying to say that a delgete is the exact same as some ave joe that read the btsx marking material and wants to have their own ft. knox as advertised?
As you said these posts are part of :
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That is actually part of my delegate campaign, to help new users and defend BTSX from FUD
Not just as a holder but part of your campaign.

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I am not selling anything more so than you are trying to discredit it.
Im not trying to "discredit" anything, what does that mean anyway? Poinitng out that a dervitive is in fact not the same as a real asset? That no, you can not do everything with a derivitive as you can with the real asset. Agreeing with you on many points. Saying that the BTSX platform can be useful for derivitives, or issuing shares of a company. Saying that the tech behind BTSX is quite interesting. That you can not hold bitcoin in bitsharesX. That when you want to "cash out" into USD then you have the same coutnerparty risk as with any other coin. That you or anyone else can not find how the VC funding company is profiting from bitsharesX, this is "discredit"?
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A delegate doesn't have any more or less vested interest than an owner of X coin, developer of Y coin, or a miner of Z coin as I said. You make it seem as if I am some powerful being, but in reality I have just as much say as anyone in the Bitshares community and can be voted out at any time as I own very little stake in it.
So you dont get paid as a delegate, right? How is owning very little stake related to being voted out?





Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: NewLiberty on September 30, 2014, 07:09:17 PM
After thinking about it more, selling BTSX for a Bitasset does technically create downward pressure on the BTSX market and upward pressure on the Bitasset market, however I think that downward pressure on BTSX is negligible.

I'll drop the wash sale issue for now, but for US/EU it would be something to look at.  (The same thing happens if you sell a Gold ETF and use the money to buy physical gold.)

For the "diversify" issue, please allow my attempt to make it simpler, and tell me if you think I am wrong?

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Selling the BTSX for a Bitasset is selling into what might be presumed as a strong hand as the buyer/asset creater is required to hold sufficient BTSX to back the Bitasset (2X value of the Bitasset).  Downward pressure is created in the BTSX price by the sale, and upward pressure (2x) is created by the backing requirement.


It may be an unintended consequence, but the market effects of this would also seem to create a complexity risk with every Bitasset created and every Bitasset purchased for BTSX.  All asset creators are required to maintain the backing value for their assets, thus bidding the price of BTSX back up (and draining them of fiat) when BTSX is sold for a Bitasset.  The counterparty solvency risk gets further compounded with each asset created and again with each asset sold.

This system could benefit from some anti-fragility.  It appears there may be some possible economic disruption risks.  You will need very wealthy asset creators, none of whom may become insolvent, for they could be drained of their wealth to support the BTSX price by a more wealthy market player who already has a 2x advantage due to the backing requirement enforced.

I can't say that it would ever happen, but it would seem that there could be some nasty waves that may overturn some boats (followed by some feeding frenzy), if something big were ever to breach water in the pond. 

It seems a decent system, but would have to run it through some game theory analysis to work out if the vulnerability here matters.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: CoinHoarder on September 30, 2014, 08:09:07 PM
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First of all you keep bringing up everywhere I am a Delegate as if it brings more credibility to your statements and less to mine and that is silly.
No it is not silly, just come out and say that you are a delegate from the get go, it is silly to let people know that you are a delegate?
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. It is like saying that you are a Bitcoin user, so all of your opinions are worthless because you want them to go up in value.
A bitcoin user is the same as being a delegate? No, that is silly.
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Why don't you inform us of your cryptocurrency holdings so we can know which statements of yours we can ignore using the same logic?

Again being a delegate is different than being a simply "holder" of a currency.

It is technically different, but you are ASSUMING that I have more of a vested interest in BTSX than holders of BTSX which is false as you don't know my personal situation. In actuality I own less thank 10k BTSX and am a little fish in a small pond considering they are worth something like 3.5 cents each and the market cap is something like 65 million dollars. Since we are assuming things, I can assume you have more vested interest in whatever cryptocurrency you hold than I have in my measly amount of BTSX. Just as easily as others voted me in as a delegate, I could get voted out. I own very little stake so in actuality I have little to gain from converting people to users of BTSX.

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You are basically saying if you use or invest in something you lose your ability to rationalize reality, however I actually have the ability to admit when I am wrong and am here giving my honest and genuine opinions on different issues. BitsharesX is still rather new and it is basically the only alt coin I care about, so I have spent most of my time talking about it and helping others understand it. I am sorry if this upsets you, but it is a free world and luckily Theymos is not a nazi.
No, I am simply pointing out common misconceptions about bitsharesX, there is no need for Ft. Knox because nothing would be in there anyway except bitsharesX.
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That is actually part of my delegate campaign, to help new users and defend BTSX from FUD
Pointing out big markeing statements and that saying "hold bitcoin in bitsharesX" has nothing to do with a bitcoin private key is FUD I guess. Make sure to include the word "nazi" in your campaign it is  great way to attack people that do not agree with you, bonus points for you!
It is not a marketing statement. Holding bitBTC is similar to holding real BTC if all you are doing is speculating on it or trading it. Sure, there are fundamental differences and Bitassets do not have all the utility of their real counterparts but that is not what I am referring to when I say holding bitBTC is like holding BTC, and I have already admitted that. It is similar if all you are doing with it is hodling or day trading as it has almost the exact same value. Yes there are some risks involved with Bitassets rather than the actual assets themselves, but that is just common sense. Should I explain that I am using a keyboard to type this message and I am breathing air right now to stay alive too?

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I don't understand why you hate BitsharesX so much.

I dont, primarly I find the marketing misleading and not one person can explain how the VC company that funded the project makes any money, delegate please explain that,why is this contract not embeded in the bitsharesX blockchian or anything similar?
You are failing to understand that although BTSX resembles a cryptocurrency it is a company. It makes decisions based on making the company more profitable, and part of that is through marketing. BTSX doesn't market itself any differently from any other company.

There are many people that make misleading claims in Bitcoin marketing, yet you still support it? IE. No transaction fees! Instant transactions! It's deflationary! These are all partially true statements, but misleading none the less. Many cryptocurrencies use similar marketing schemes and yet you are singling out BTSX for doing something that is being done on a wide scale.

The VC firm invested money on equal fitting as everyone else that invested into AGS and PTS before the snapshot, which the original BTSX stake was dispersed on. Other than possibly having more money to invest (I don't know specifics), they had no competitive advantage over anyone else. This is part of the FUD I am talking about. VCs and hedge funds are investing into BTC too, yet here you are again singling out BTSX for things that are happening in Bitcoin and other cryptos.

BotsharesX is a fun project, your own M1A1, a bitcoin killer, trade potato chipsX, or even bitDIRT! Real world derivatives!
It seems to me it is making a jab at BTSX by making fun of it. Also M1A1, potato chips, and dirt would be Impossible to make into Bitassets as there is no readily available worldwide prices for them. Prices vary from brand to brand, market to market, country to country. It is more than a fun project, it is redo cultus and thus it seems like you are trying to say BTSX is rediculous, which it is not nearly as rediculous as Botshares.

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I fail to see the difference if you are keeping your cryptocoins and commodities as investments for long periods of time, or are day trading them.
You do not have a private key and you are not/ can not run a full node of the coin in question. A very big difference. Having a copy of the blockchain of said coin is fundimental. bitBTC or bit(insert GOLD LITECOIN or anything else) are derivatives, it is like saying gold bullion and gold derivatives are the same, no difference. I disagree.
The point is you don't need a private key, or to run a full node, to speculate on Bitcoin or day trade it. bitUSD resembles the true value of Bitcoin and that is the only important thing when speculating.

A derivative and an asset is not the same thing (again common sense that I didn't feel the need to explain.. you are nit picking) but in the way I am describing its use it is practically the same thing. A derivative can serve the same purpose as an asset if all someone is doing is trading, holding, or speculating. Again, there is added risk but this is common sense.. I don't see why I need to explain things that are common sense as we are all intelligent enough to be involved in cryptos.

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If you wanted to, you could cash them out to BTSX at any time and convert them into anything you like.
Yes, this is exactly what I stated.
Guess what? When you want to cash them out to get USD then you have counterparty risk, as with any other coin.
So in the end your bitGold can only be cashed out for BTSX then you figure out what to do with the BTSX, to get gold you would need to sell btsx at an exchnage for USD and then buy gold with USD somewhere. These are derivatives that promote holding by paying dividends, in .... BTSX.
I prefer to explain things in plain English. I don't think many people that don't have an investment background don't know what a derivative is, and that is why I hardly use this terminology. I know before learning about BitsharesX I personally didn't know what a derivative is. You are alluding to this being some kind of common knowledge. The easiest to understand explanation to me is Bitassets being market pegged assets that are of equal value to their real life counterparts. Again, plain English...

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you could do anything with Bitassets that you could do with Bitcoin if you wanted.
I disagree again, I can not look up anything in the bitcoin blockchain in my client with bitBTC, I have not tried maybe you can tell us if you can.
If you are speculating, trading, or holding you don't need to look anything up on the block chain. All you need is your trade history and transaction history for BTSX and the Bitassets, which are contained in your wallet in BTSX including a block explorer built into the client. Again, you are nitpicking and the points you are making are common sense.

With a little counterparts risk and the proper infrastructure, you can do anything with bitBTC and Bitcoin's which is what I was alluding to. I explained this earlier that it would require the infrastructure to be developed to become a true statement. You deleted the part of my quote where I added that caviar and it is what started this whole derivative vs real asset nonsense, which is again common sense.

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I just think there is more counterparty risk using centralized exchanges and services. Over the years how many of them have scammed customers, been "hacked", or defaulted? A lot of them..

I agree, however you still have this risk when exiting the BTSX system for the "real world" asset that the derivatives represent if you choose to do so. The reply "why would you want to" which is another question all together.
There is no reason to exit the BTSX ecosystem if you are day trading, holding, or speculating. This is a moot point in regards to the point I am making. Sure, they don't have all of the utility of the real asset (again common sense), but they serve certain purposes well.

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Of course there are risks, just like any other cryptocurrency, I thought there being some risk is implied. It is that I think there is less risk trading bitassets than trading on centralized services as to why I say things like this.
The risk is that the whole system colapses due to a crash, manipulation/collusion of delegates. Of course both are quote "unlikely" at this stage in general they are both totaly dismissed.  
Yes they are unlikely but do exist. After learning about how the system works the risks are again common sense. Although, I think collusion/manipulation from delegates is much more unlikely than the system collapsing due to a crash. They have incentive to do their job right as they are getting paid for it. If they don't then they can get voted out if they act improperly.

Maybe I am naive, but I think a 97% crash is unlikely as well. Especially seeing as though if someone thinks a bubble is coming there is no reason to get out of BTSX when they can get into bitFIAT which doesn't affect the market cap of BTSX and thus limits the amplitude of a bubble as money doesn't exit out of the Ecosystem. There are only specific reasons of exiting the ecosystem and a bubble isn't one of them. Once BTSX holders learn that it is in their best interest to go into bitFIAT rather than exiting the ecosystem all together if they think a bubble is near, the whole system will be better off for it and retain its value better than most cryptocurrencies. Also, the fact it uses DPoS which is an insanely cheap way to secure the network helps with this too, whereas with PoW maintaining the network is very expensive and there is a cost of that and price implications. If the miners sell the coins they are mining to pay for expenses, which they mostly do, then it requires the inflow of new money to retain its price.

The only way I see a total price collapse is if there is some bug or error in the software that causes a collapse of confidence in the protocol overnight. Again, maybe I am naive but it has been in beta testing and out in the wild for a while now. As time goes on and bugs are fixed, the less likely this is to happen over time.

Also, BTSX conveys risks better than any cryptocurrency as there is a ToS that people must accept to use the software. Even Bitcoin doesn't convey the risks as specifically and thoroughly as Bitshares does in its ToS. If people don't read the ToS it is not BitsharesX's fault.

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In the event that a bubble does occur, people can diversify into bitFIAT to reduce the amplitude of the bubble and reduce your exposure, and that is unlike any other cryptocurrency where you would need to actually sell them to reduce exposure which creates downward pressure on the market. Hedging against bubbles while not putting any downward pressure on BTSX is one of its greatest features. Downward pressure really only needs to occur when you would like to exit the Bitshares ecosystem, as you have already mentioned.

Yep, the bubble continues to fly as long as no helium exits.

Exactly, except at that point you probably couldn't call it a bubble if it never pops. If shareholders (stakeholders) act in their own best interest by buying bitFIAT when they think a bubble might occurs, then no money ever exits the system unless they want to purchase something, diversify, or exit the ecosystem all together.

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I don't think anyone should invest more than they are comfortable losing in any asset, currency, or commodity and I apologize if I made it seem that way.
BTSX is marketed as the most stable thing ever, it is misleading.
People that blindly believe in marketing speech without doing their own research deserve to lose all of their money, and they will certainly do so. This is just smart investing and maybe people will need to learn a lesson or two before realizing this, but this kind of marketing talk is happening everywhere, including in Bitcoin. You are again singling out Bitshares for something every coin and business does.

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. Again, I thought this was common sense but apparently you want me to say it every time I talk about BTSX? Looking through your posts it doesn't seem as if you state other cryptocurrencies are risky with every post you make on them, so I am not sure why you are requesting I do something you don't even do yourself?


Hi,
Im not promoting any coin, you are. Therefore there is not the same standard that you imply. I would hope it would be common sense that a delgate should be held to a different standard when out promoting the project- coin 2.0 thingie or whatever you want to call it. When I do post or talk about trading I always tell people to do thier own due dilligance ,as a minimum. Your position as a delegate is similar to being in a higher level of a company, it would be great if you had just come out with that while speaking about BTSX that is simply more transparent. Attacking the messenger is an interesting tactic but doest zero to move the discussion along, it in fact distracts from the main topic. Even if I did not inform people of risk when doing anything remotely like give advice on a coin , would that affect or apply to what you are doing? No.

Whatever.. I am done with this discussion as to delegate or not, as I said it is silly. You have special interest here too in attacking BitsharesX whether you would like to admit it or not. I'm not going to tattoo BitsharesX delegate on my forehead, sorry.

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your own personal ft. knox

Ft. Knox is suppost to be full of physical assets, bitsharesX has zero to do with physical assets.
Again common sense, attacking BTSX for something every coin and company does. At least there is collateral for the assets unlike in a bank or holding FIAT.

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Imagine all the properties that make Bitcoin so revolutionary combined with the price stability of the dollar. This is bitUSD, the first truly stable crypto-currency and only available on BitSharesX.

No risk , totaly stable, just ask risky as holding USD
Again common sense, attacking BTSX for something every coin and company does. At least there is collateral for the assets unlike in a bank or holding FIAT.

Another issue is that bitsharesX community members see themselves as , and I quote: "Crypto Masters"

You see I like the tech behind bitshares, but this kind of attitude I dont like.
Lol, this is all in your mind and your intense hatred of BitsharesX and everything involved with it. Everyone likes to think they are right, and you are judging a technology by its users which is stupid. Do you judge Bitcoin by all its Zealots and every other coin as well? Along with their marketing material... Everyone is trying to sell themselves in this speculators market that is cryptocoins. BTSX and it's user base is no different than any other in these regards, and you are stereotyping a whole community and coin based on the actions of a few people.

So delegate, please tell us how does
BitFund.PE
make money with this whole thing?
Is the contract somewhere embeded in the bitshares blockchain ,if not, why not?
They invested in AGS/PTS just like every other genesis stake holder. They had no extra benefit other than having more capital to invest in that most. Again, there are hedge funds/VCs getting into Bitcoin and this is no different as they have equal footing as any other averadge joe. Again, here you are singling out BTSX for something that is happening in the larger coins as well.. Bitcoin, Ripple, Litecoin, etc....

There is no contract because there is none needed. They have as much control and stake in the company as the amount of money or mining power to PTS they provided, in relation to amount that everyone else put in. You act like this is a horrible thing that someone should get an equal amount of stake proportional to the amount of capital or work (in regards to mining PTS) they put in.


Call derivatives, derivatives

crypto derivatives

if people want to trade derivatives, then it is a good platform.

However if you want the real coin or other asset (bitPotatoschips ect)
then it is not suitable.

Holding phyiscal assets (metals, land ect) has merit and is true diverisvication, since there is zero exposure to crypto.

Trading derivatives also has merit but should not be sold as a subsuite for holding a bitcoin private key or any other asset, you can not do the same things with a derivative as with the real asset.

I dont hate bitsharesX , im not following you, you just happen to pop up in the forum in 2 main sections. I would have never replied if you had not said that you can hold bitcoin in bitsharesX which to me is very misleading.
Again, this is all common sense as to the utility and risks of Bitassets once learning how the system works. I prefer to not assume I am talking to mentally challenged people on here, as I think everyone seems generally smart enough to understand there are risks and a Bitasset is not the same thing as a real asset. I personally did not know what a derivative is before learning what Bitassets are, so I prefer to not use that terminology meanwhile explaining derivatives in layman terms. I don't think many people know what Derivatives mean if they don't have a lot of experience in different types on investments. I am not rich and I don't have a ton of money to do a ton of different types of invest, and I assume I am talking to the 99% here rather than the 1% that know all about derivatives.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: Zer0Sum on September 30, 2014, 08:42:55 PM
Technically, all Bitassets are backed by BTSX, so you could look at it as not being a new investment, but I could also see it being the other way and admittedly no one really knows possible tax implications as the technology is still pretty new.

There are some opposing opinions floating around about what (if any) taxes will apply when trading Bitassets. It makes sense to me that it would not be a taxable event until you spend the bitassets on goods or services or cash them out into real FIAT and realize capital gains as trading...

The IRS has actually made all this pretty clear...
It's not complicated... and random "opinions" are irrelevant.

IRS:  "virtual currency is treated as PROPERTY for U.S. federal tax purposes" (also assets, I'm sure)

IRS: "the character of gain or loss from the sale or exchange of virtual currency depends
on whether the virtual currency is a capital asset in the hands of the taxpayer."

All gains from virtual currency/assets are taxable...
(a) if you are a long-term investor it will likely be viewed as a capital asset...
(b) if you are a trader/speculator everything is pure income, but you can deduct office expenses, etc

The nightmare will be documenting your activities...
Based on unregulated records from shady Third World crypto exchanges...
And info received from ANON issuers and sources will simply go in the garbage.

The IRS will be totally screwing people over based on "inadequate record-keeping"...
So you may as well not bother reporting your crypto activities.

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/IRS-Virtual-Currency-Guidance


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on September 30, 2014, 09:16:35 PM
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It is technically different, but you are ASSUMING that I have more of a vested interest in BTSX than holders of BTSX which is false as you don't know my personal situation.
True I do not. Are delegates not paid for their delagate work? This is another difference.
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what I am referring to when I say holding bitBTC is like holding BTC, and I have already admitted that.
Great that you admited that,  first you just said that you can hold btc in bitsharesX and for people that are not experts in dertivitaves and use simple english that you want to use, hold is hold.
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Yes there are some risks involved with Bitassets rather than the actual assets themselves, but that is just common sense. Should I explain that I am using a keyboard to type this message and I am breathing air right now to stay alive too?
No, the topic is bitUSD and BTSX not air, yes there are risks I agree.

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You are failing to understand that although BTSX resembles a cryptocurrency it is a company.
No I am not, I just thought that maybe you would have more insight into the VC investment structure and could share that info with us.

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It makes decisions based on making the company more profitable, and part of that is through marketing. BTSX doesn't market itself any differently from any other company.
Yep that is what I am saying and that is exactly what I said, markting just like any other company, I agree.

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There are many people that make misleading claims in Bitcoin marketing, yet you still support it? IE. No transaction fees! Instant transactions! It's deflationary! These are all partially true statements, but misleading none the less. Many cryptocurrencies use similar marketing schemes and yet you are singling out BTSX for doing something that is being done on a wide scale.
We are not talking about bitcoin, we are talking about BTSX, im also sure that you or others do not approve of every marketing attempt from the BTSX community.
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Many cryptocurrencies use similar marketing schemes and yet you are singling out BTSX for doing something that is being done on a wide scale.
No that is inncorrect, I am speaking about BTSX here and not about Dark5.2 or HyperShare5000 or whatever the latest coin is with misleading marketing. It is not singled out in a thread about coins in general, therefore it is not singled out among other coins.
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The VC firm invested money on equal fitting as everyone else that invested into AGS and PTS before the snapshot, which the original BTSX stake was dispersed on. Other than possibly having more money to invest (I don't know specifics), they had no competitive advantage over anyone else. This is part of the FUD I am talking about. VCs and hedge funds are investing into BTC too, yet here you are again singling out BTSX for things that are happening in Bitcoin and other cryptos.
Great that is interesting, I guess simply asking is FUD, again we are not speaking of BTC and allthough VCs and hedges invest in to BTC it is not structured the same, as you stated already, and they were not there from the start, therefore it is different.

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t seems to me it is making a jab at BTSX by making fun of it. Also M1A1, potato chips, and dirt would be Impossible to make into Bitassets as there is no readily available worldwide prices for them. Prices vary from brand to brand, market to market, country to country. It is more than a fun project, it is redo cultus and thus it seems like you are trying to say BTSX is rediculous, which it is not nearly as rediculous as Botshares.

Yes I find a lot of it rediculous. You can find a price for a new M1A1 and you can get an average price for potatochips and yes botsharesX is also rediculous.

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The point is you don't need a private key, or to run a full node, to speculate on Bitcoin or day trade it
Yes that is true, however you said that you can do the same things with bitBTC as with BTC and that is not true.

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There is no reason to exit the BTSX ecosystem if you are day trading, holding, or speculating. This is a moot point in regards to the point I am making. Sure, they don't have all of the utility of the real asset (again common sense), but they serve certain purposes well.
You might need to take profit and use USD in the real world. Then you have to exit, and you have counterparty risk as with all other crypto. I also admit and have said that derivitives have merit ie, utlitiy.
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I prefer to explain things in plain English. I don't think many people that don't have an investment background don't know what a derivative is, and that is why I hardly use this terminology. I know before learning about BitsharesX I personally didn't know what a derivative is. You are alluding to this being some kind of common knowledge. The easiest to understand explanation to me is Bitassets being market pegged assets that are of equal value to their real life counterparts. Again, plain English...
"market pegged assets" is plain English? Ok great if you say so.
You are alluding that people can easily understand those three words, rather than one commonly used word, which is pertty damn plain English.


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Also, BTSX conveys risks better than any cryptocurrency as there is a ToS that people must accept to use the software
Oh that is good, probaly have to do that if you are a company.
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Exactly, except at that point you probably couldn't call it a bubble if it never pops. If shareholders (stakeholders) act in their own best interest by buying bitFIAT when they think a bubble might occurs, then no money ever exits the system unless they want to purchase something, diversify, or exit the ecosystem all together.
True, if you want to purchase something you have to exit the ecosystem.


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your own personal ft. knox

Ft. Knox is suppost to be full of physical assets, bitsharesX has zero to do with physical assets.
Again common sense, attacking BTSX for something every coin and company does. At least there is collateral for the assets unlike in a bank or holding FIAT.

So it is common sense to assume that BTSX marketing is misleading, im not talking about other coins or companies.


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Lol, this is all in your mind and your intense hatred of BitsharesX and everything involved with it. Everyone likes to think they are right, and you are judging a technology by its users which is stupid. Do you judge Bitcoin by all its Zealots and every other coin as well? Along with their marketing material... Everyone is trying to sell themselves in this speculators market that is cryptocoins. BTSX and it's user base is no different than any other in these regards, and you are stereotyping a whole community and coin based on the actions of a few people.

Yep same ol same ol, exactly what I was saying. Im not juding the technology, I seperated them, you see I said I like the tech not the tribalistic "crypto masters" theme. You want to deny that this is a major topic in the BTSX forum or here? "bitsharesX takes down Bitcoin" ect? Ahhh its ok becuase everyone else does it, got it. Do you really think that if I had "intense hatred" I would say "this part is good" "this part is bad" ?


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I assume I am talking to the 99% here rather than the 1% that know all about derivatives.

Guess what, derivatives are very usefull for the small guy, they allow you to take positions without having huge ammounts of capital. So your assumtion that only the 1% use or know about derivatives is innocorrect. This is one of the merits of deriviatives.






Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: CoinHoarder on September 30, 2014, 10:15:25 PM
After thinking about it more, selling BTSX for a Bitasset does technically create downward pressure on the BTSX market and upward pressure on the Bitasset market, however I think that downward pressure on BTSX is negligible.

I'll drop the wash sale issue for now, but for US/EU it would be something to look at.  (The same thing happens if you sell a Gold ETF and use the money to buy physical gold.)

For the "diversify" issue, please allow my attempt to make it simpler, and tell me if you think I am wrong?

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Selling the BTSX for a Bitasset is selling into what might be presumed as a strong hand as the buyer/asset creater is required to hold sufficient BTSX to back the Bitasset (2X value of the Bitasset).  Downward pressure is created in the BTSX price by the sale, and upward pressure (2x) is created by the backing requirement.


It may be an unintended consequence, but the market effects of this would also seem to create a complexity risk with every Bitasset created and every Bitasset purchased for BTSX.  All asset creators are required to maintain the backing value for their assets, thus bidding the price of BTSX back up (and draining them of fiat) when BTSX is sold for a Bitasset.  The counterparty solvency risk gets further compounded with each asset created and again with each asset sold.

This system could benefit from some anti-fragility.  It appears there may be some possible economic disruption risks.  You will need very wealthy asset creators, none of whom may become insolvent, for they could be drained of their wealth to support the BTSX price by a more wealthy market player who already has a 2x advantage due to the backing requirement enforced.

I can't say that it would ever happen, but it would seem that there could be some nasty waves that may overturn some boats (followed by some feeding frenzy), if something big were ever to breach water in the pond.  

It seems a decent system, but would have to run it through some game theory analysis to work out if the vulnerability here matters.

You should come to our forums and ask BM about this. He is probably the most knowledgable in the BTSX community when it comes to the economics and dynamics of trading of Bitassets. I am sure that this has probably been discussed somewhere, but the way you describe it I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Admittedly I am not super knowledgable on exactly how everything works, but I get the general idea of how everything functions. Maybe the way I explained it was wrong, but it is certainly not my intent to deceive... I only say that because it makes sense to me.

I like to say that it is as close to a decentralized free market solution that exists when it comes to decentralized market pegged assets (for Krach: derivatives). It is as free of a free market approach as possible, with rules (or regulations if you want to call them that) in place so the Bitassets maintain the true value of their real life counterparts. I am not privy to all of the rules as they have changed a lot since BTSX launched, but I do know there are a lot of them to stop random things from happening that could disrupt the market. Such as not allowing for someone to go short under 10% of a price feed which is updated by delegates that updates the real value of the assets. A good explanation I've heard is that it is like a free market with training wheels. When BTSX first launched there were very little rules as to trading and the market peg was as much as 10% to 15% off at certain point in time. Through all the updates new rules have been applied to protect users from possible attack vectors and maintain the market peg which I believe is trading at about a 99.5% accuracy currently.

What you are saying is that someone wealthy could come could come in and crash the price, forcing a large wave of margin calls for the shorts, and causing the Bitassets to become under collateralized due to the shorts running out of capital or lowering demand for people to go short in a huge crash? If that is what you are talking about, then I think this is a possibility and a common vulnerability people bring up. If you would like to read more about it then Preston Byrne's blog series is a good place to start about vulnerabilities of the market system. Daniel (Bytemaster), the lead dev responds in the comments to some of the blog postings and it makes for interesting reading material. Krach can't hold a candle to this guys blogs. :)  http://prestonbyrne.com/category/bitmarmot/


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: NewLiberty on October 01, 2014, 12:34:37 AM
Thanks for that, looks like I have some reading ahead of me.
Very curious about all this.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on October 01, 2014, 04:27:04 PM
Nice, still attacking the person and not the message, as was done in response to the mentioned blog.

http://en.lmgtfy.com/?q=pegged+asset#
http://en.lmgtfy.com/?q=Derivatives#

Allthough google is only one tool, if "pegged assets" was such a plain English term, it typicaly would have more results coming from many sources and not primarly from bitsharesX sites.




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The technology is interesting, but the structure is flawed: speaking objectively, BTSX/BitAssets cannot provably do what the marketing material claims it can do. I think you have an obligation, at the very least, to make this point abundantly clear to everyone who is about to throw money at it.
http://prestonbyrne.com/category/bitmarmot/



Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: brekyrself on October 01, 2014, 04:57:01 PM


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The technology is interesting, but the structure is flawed: speaking objectively, BTSX/BitAssets cannot provably do what the marketing material claims it can do. I think you have an obligation, at the very least, to make this point abundantly clear to everyone who is about to throw money at it.
http://prestonbyrne.com/category/bitmarmot/




You speak of due diligence yet quote some blogger?  How difficult is it for you to simply type www.bitsharestalk.org and visit a few threads that show up the date non biased information on how the pegs and plans are working out?  That article you posted is a month old from a blogger who constantly has very emotional articles to gain attention.


New market rules being tested on a dry run
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9521.0

Updated delegate pay model which you should read over
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9452.0

If your so sure the market is broken here is a quick 1k bounty for you to claim
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9506.0


Also nice to see Daniel Larimer and Patrick M. Byrne as keynote speakers at Inside Bitcoins.  http://insidebitcoins.com/las-vegas


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: krach on October 01, 2014, 05:18:34 PM
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You speak of due diligence yet quote some blogger?  How difficult is it for you to simply type www.bitsharestalk.org and visit a few threads that show up the date non biased information on how the pegs and plans are working out?  That article you posted is a month old from a blogger who constantly has very emotional articles to gain attention.


New market rules being tested on a dry run
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9521.0

Updated delegate pay model which you should read over
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9452.0

If your so sure the market is broken here is a quick 1k bounty for you to claim
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9506.0


Also nice to see Daniel Larimer and Patrick M. Byrne as keynote speakers at Inside Bitcoins.  http://insidebitcoins.com/las-vegas

Hi,
I have seen Daniel Larimer live in person present bitsharesX, also I am registered at bitsharestalk. I asked the marketing manager ,in person, "How does bitUSD have value?" But he could not really give me an answer, however he is in charge of marketing so why should he be able to explain that, right?

Yes I quoted a blog in which Daniel Larimer is quoted and he himself commented on, is that out of context? You should be happy, then people can view the discussion, and guess what, who was it that brought that blog into the discussion, me? Nope.

Thanks for linking to the delegate pay model, you know if people were interested in explaiing you would think that when someone asks then they would be happy to just show you instead of trying to attack people and call quesitons "FUD".  I have never ever claimed that the market is broken, I have never ever ever commented or brought up anything at all about bugs.

I will stop and you guys can continue to promote BTSX, you can PM me if need be.


Title: Re: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion
Post by: nomoreheroes7 on October 01, 2014, 05:46:12 PM

I will stop


It's over...it's finally over.

 :P