Bitcoin Forum

When will the USA pay their debts, if ever?

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Never. It's impossible. The interest alone is impossible to pay, nevermind the debt.

It's a JOKE. They will never pay. Just not possible.

USA can pay any debt. make more research but here is a hint:

http://www.hpprintercartridges.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/printing-money-with-hp-printer-cartridges.jpg

??? Why would a country want to pay its debts? Debt should be pawned off on patriots willing to take sub-inflation rates in exchange for a nice story and a picture of a pissed off, paranoid eagle, or to other entities seeking favor. Total US debt:assets is quite low -- UK and Japan are in a much more dire position because there's less to squeeze out; USG has options.

Never, take your precautions with this knowledge

This.

A default is inevitable. It's a good idea to get into a position where you are as shielded as possible from it.

Good one! Here's another, from the vaults:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703730804576314953091790360 (http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703730804576314953091790360)

tl;dr "Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai told a farmer at a public rally last year that he should use the bricks of bank notes under his bed "to fertilize his fields.""

They will pay it once they adopt BTC.

We can only hope that the US will continue to use cotton paper for the bills and doesn't switch to plastics... :D

We will see a fierce competition between countries for money printing.

ya.ya.yo!

They cant default,  but they can inflate it away.

They don't plan on paying it back, it seems like the gameplan is to cause WWIII and during that claim that their country is now bankrupt and they need to reset their dollar and debts due to some bullshit war related thing

they will make mroe debit with bitcoin itself, you will see

If you think about it the USA has never paid much of it's debt back since the days of Jackson (who hated banks and paid the national debt off).  Basically it will roll its debt forward forever (or as long as investors will allow it) and the US will rely on inflation to reduce the real value of the debt.  Even a 2% inflation rate halves the real value of debt every 30 years or so, and I think we can expect higher inflation than that going forward.  (Though I have been wrong on this before.)

There was a time when people just assumed countries would never pay back debt.  A lot of early UK debt was perpetual.

There is only talk of containing the fiscal deficit, not erasing it.
It doesn't make sense for a country to pay off all its debts. Definitely not for the US.

Why pay back the debt if they can keep rolling the debt over and pay negative interest?

In essence, the creditor nations are paying US for owing them money.

Who cares? Our kids and grandkids will figure something out. It's their problem, not ours.  ;D

Debts are made to be owed not paid off.

Exactly. The US can purposely devalue the dollar where $1,000,000 will only be worth $1 today. Pay off $15 trillion in debt by inflating the currency.

The only problem with that approach will be that they cannot borrow any more and USD will stop being the global reserve currency.

The US has run budget deficits for well over 100 years with the exception of the late 90's. Whenever a country is running a budget deficit, on a net basis it is not able to repay it's debts, but must borrow additional funds to fund it's deficit. The theory is that as long as a country's economy(income) continues to grow, that the total debt will shrink as a percentage of the total economy as long as the debt grows at a slower pace then the economy does.

The politicians managed to balance the budget for a couple of years in the late 90's only because they raided the Social Security Trust Fund and replaced those funds with IOUs from the US Treasury.

You know that is actually an excellent question

I don't expect the USA to actually end up with a debt surplus for centuries to say the least assuming that their fiat based monetary system lasts that long, rather I expect the USA currency to collapse severely devalue and lose purchasing power but not collapse or for their debt to be erased one way or another by occupations/wars with other countries lol.

(You know that whole I owed the previous government 1 dollar but decided to occupy it instead and clean my debt books since I don't recognize the new government lol)

True but with China being one of the largest holders of US debt they would see it happening and start a sell of of the debt and then collapse the USA Economy, or just go straight to nukes.

It's physically not possible for them to do so now because they have allowed themselves to get too far into debt. The longer it is left the more gets pushed on to meaning it's really a never ending circle for them now. They could try to pay their debts but it may never make a difference now.

We over-focus on federal government debt. The US is in a relatively normal position compared to other developed countries and has low assets:debt. The latter is important because the government can certainly tax more than income to get out of debt.

"When will the USA eventually collapse on their debts?" would have been a better question...how long can this charade continue?

Never. There is not enough money to pay back all the debts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0

let other countries get enough gold, hyper inflate the debt away, allow gold to rise to meet value of all money, balance sheet zerod, start again.

Or just pay back the debts with non debt based money instead of paying them back each time with more debts.

I think a much better focus would be on the unfunded liabilities of our social programs like social security and medicare/medicaid (and now obama care). Once you take these programs into consideration things will start to look much worse for the US.

that would be true, nobody would use this crap anymore and i guess we will see this in slow motion. china accumulates more gold than any other country in the world. why  :P ?

you reduce debts by inflation not by paying back, when you are a state.

I am sure the Arab and Chinese will be glad to buy certain assets and technology patents from the US rather than getting paid back in FIAT.

They already own half of America.  ;D

The debt, not to be confused with budget, is the money supply.  That's why it is referred to as a debt based monetary system.  All money is loaned into existence at interest.  Of course the interest money is never created.  That's how competition for fiat is created.   Look at the federal debt in the US it's 17 trillion or so, I think I lost track about three wars ago, that's the total amount of dollars floating around mostly over seas.   Although that trend may change in the future.   Fiat is not the only form of money of course.  It's only currency, not real value.  People are poor because they think currency is wealth.  It's not.  Currency is just rivers of debt flowing.  Things with value are real wealth such as government bonds, stocks, mortgage agreements, real estate, commodities and even space ships.  Of course real estate ownership doesn't exist for peasants in communist countries such as every country on earth.  Only Governments are allowed to truly own property which they are allowed to reclaim from the peasants at will.  Of course they must be careful not to do it to much lest the peasants revolt.   

Where is the statistic come from? Is there a source to back this up?

Inflation will reduce everyone's debts when you measure the amount of effort/work that will need to be done in order to earn enough to pay back the debt.

I would be more concerned in the confidence other nations have in the US dollar if that gets eroded it doesn't matter how much the government of the United States prints out if no one is willing to accept it.
That said right now the geopolitical tide is shifting towards the Russians Chinese and the Latin Americas so how that will impact the standby us dollar in a few years is much more of a concern than how it handles in its day to day.

The government do not need to pay off the debt, they just need to issue new debt to cover the old debt. It would be a huge achievement if they can lower it, nevermind paying it back.

That only works while the currency is recognized and accepted by other countries as a means of payment
Once debt is no longer valued or another country collects to much debt from someone else it becomes a tool they can utilize whenever they want to as a political leverage or weapon.

So new debt works but only as long as a country wants to remain dependent on someone else good old interdependence ^^.
Except if the debt is nationally owned that is.

also only works if the stock market remains ever increasing in order to allow financial institutions to lend at current asset reserve ratio levels, which requires more and more people to be herded into the stock market

also only works if we have an inflationary economy, deflation would bankrupt the government

also only works if people are sheep

This is really not correct. As long as the government has sufficient revenue to be able to service their debt they will not have any issues. Generally speaking, in order to have enough revenue to service it's debt it will need to have it's economy grow at a faster rate then the rate in which it's total amount of debt grows. The currency that everything is paid in does not matter.

Well there is a difference though since servicing the debt means that a government or its lenders are willing to take and accept payments on it.
That said if a country / interested party demands the full debt from another nation issues arise.
This is what is happening in Argentina through their bankruptcy crisis where Soros and them are not willing to take any service fees on the debt then you end up in the scenario I just mentioned.

Although that one is interesting since Argentina could fully service the debt because they can but they can't cut two different deals and that is where the problem lies. So it's not that they will not have any issues but sometimes weird situations occur
http://www.voanews.com/content/us-judge-orders-argentina-debt-row-hearing-amid-contempt-calls/2423522.html

During the 2005 and 2010 restructurings, holders of about 93 percent of Argentina's debt agreed to swap their bonds in deals giving them 25 cents to 29 cents on the dollar. Bondholders who did not participate including NML and Aurelius then turned to the courts seeking payment in full.
__
Happy hour is now in full swing at The Temple Bar, a busy British-style pub in the upscale Palermo Soho district of Buenos Aires. Over a pint of artisan pale ale, a young economist, Martin Trombetta, admits it is hard to tell from where we are sitting that his country is now in default again.

For many observers it is difficult to be sure whether this is even the case. Argentina's president, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, continues to insist that the country has not recently defaulted on its sovereign debt for the second time in 13 years, while her chief finance minister, Axel Kicillof, accuses all those who think otherwise of dealing in "atomic nonsense".

"We're in default all right," says Trombetta, a researcher in labour econometrics at the National University of General Sarmiento. "Leaving all the legal minutiae aside, our access to credit  is null today. The markets have corroborated it."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/20/argentina-kirchner-debts-crisis-bond-holders-economics

A hypothetical scenario with American debts would be if China asked the US to pay upfront all the money its owed with commodities
The fact that it does remain a political leverage tool is not entirely incorrect.

That or ending a Peg like Syria did in 2007 to the US dollar where war will occur instead and debts are erased the old fashion way.
That or you trust Krugman XD

I'd love to see government buildings and property liquidated to pay back debts and our unelected officials sent to foreign countries to violate human rights over there instead of here. No country should accept USD for debt service anymore.

Forgive my cynicism but I felt like I had to say it, so much for a democracy  when you have military gear handed out to quell citizens in the United States good old Ferguson.

But I'm with you butter it would be nice to see them not violate human rights anywhere, but if it were really that simple between here or there most people would say go over there. As for debt service as long as the nation can handle the repercussions otherwise they are walking into a mouse trap that will be sprung on them later.

Indeed! And some of that debt remains: it's a small part - now - of the total national debt, but the UK still has Napoleonic War debts, in the form of undated gilts. I believe the UK continued to issue undated gilts - perpetual debt - right up to the First World War. (Almost) within living memory.

The only alternative i foresee in this regards is probably the trust the US have on world inflation to reduce the real value of the debt.So,out rightly they are not ready to pay up their debts.

Can think of the debt as an investment during the war with French. Not paying off the debt can be viewed as a way to reward the lenders/investors for those to support UK during hard time.

The debt is objectively speaking unpayable.

Reminds me of the Detroit bankruptcy! Would be frightening for that to happen on a national scale.

Never. Because they don't have to.

Detroit isn't the only city rotting away. It just happen to be the most severe one.

There are many cities with billion dollar project which can't possibly add much value and usefulness to the local. We will see a lot more cities similar to what happen to Detroit 10-15 years down the road.

It cant be done, get ready for bailouts  ::)

Money is debt. Money is created by issuing loans.

If the debt is paid off there is no money, it is designed to never be paid off.

The question is about the government. Who will bail out the government?  :D

I don't think it's possible. Maybe default or hyperinflation will take care of it.

You don't really have to take care of it. Just keep rolling over the debt in perpetuity and make sure that it doesn't balloon into something unmanageable. As long as the interest is serviced, the debt holders might not have an issue. The problem comes when the US won't be able to refinance this debt, but that is highly unlikely.

You will. And you don't get a choice about it.

Way past that point. It's already impossible to pay the interest.

If the debtor nation refuse to raise interest rate, inflation will be rampant. Debt will continue to pile up and capital will leave the country.

If the debtor nation raise interest rate, that will create budget problems at the federal and state level.

The interest paid to China alone can fund their entire military budget for the year. Anyone else see the seriousness in this?

There are 2 ways:

-You stop printing money magically and refuse to pay the debt = you get fucked (argentina)
-You keep playing the printing money game and pray to god shit doesnt crash = (USA)

Countries prefer to receive US dollars above other currencies when receiving debt repayments because it is so heavily traded and accepted almost anywhere throughout the world.

print more money and pay debts
thats what Fed want to do

means they don't want to pay their debt

Yep, that summed up my points more or less in not so many words.
Either keep trying and get your country to scale, then keep playing that game till it crashes or default start fresh and hopefully get a fresh start without all the entanglements.

There is a difference between Argentina and the USA.
The USA borrows in USD and can print USD.
Argentina borrows in USD and can print only Peso.

Exact. Also the USD is exclusively printed out of debts and this is NOT an unbreakable natural law. Nothing stop the government to print money with no debt liabilities which would solve this situation overnight. Problem is, the government is the FED's puppet. American democracy died in 1913.

The Fed will keep printing dollar to keep their balance sheet under controlled. The debt ceiling will be raised again and again. At least they can make the creditors believe they can pay back when due.

This is a very good point. The fact that Argentina has a reputation of defaulting on their loans (scamming their debtholders) they have had difficulty lending money in anything other then dollars and that is disputed anywhere else then in US courts. This fact is going to prevent Argentina from borrowing on terms favorable to them (borrowing on terms that makes it easy for them to scam).

Exactly. Debt will always raise faster since we have to pay the federal reserve interest for every dollar printed. This means that we can never, ever pay off our national debt. If the debt ceiling is ever truly capped, then our economy collapses and becomes crushed under the debt (there will always be more debt than actual dollars). This is why the US credit rating is under fire every time there is even discussion about "not increasing the debt ceiling".

The debt ceiling is only capped by statue, as long as congress continues to raise the ceiling the US government's ability to borrow will generally continue. If the market were to decide that the US would not be able to make good on it's debt then it would be shut out of the debt market.

The reason why we are unable to pay off our national debt now is because we are running a budget deficit (spending more money then the government is receiving in tax revenue), once the government starts to run a budget surplus (spending less money then receiving in tax revenue), then the national debt will be able to start to get paid off.

Are you sure that you are not just repeating government-sponsored tax myth? The government has many income streams...

You understand completely the national debt? Is that because you are an expert?

A complete government and (taken over by government) syndicated news media blackout has existed for over 60 years, DUE TO THE MONEY INVOLVED!

http://cafr1.com/GovernmentDebt.html

More about the media cover-up:
http://cafr1.com/knowthescore.html

I am not sure what you are talking about. The definition of a budget surplus is when more money is taken in via revenues (mainly taxes) then is spent via government expenditures. I did not say anything about how easy this would be.

My point is that you can be spending MORE money than you receive in tax revenue, and still have a surplus.

Why?

Look at the CAFRs!

Our debt could never be paid off in USD. The US Treasury borrows money from the federal reserve bank of New York and pays back an interest rate. Only way to pay back the interest is to borrow more money from the fed. It is a perpetual debt cycle, it can never, ever be paid off.

This is not true. If the government collects more in taxes then they spend in expenditures then the debt would be paid down. If this is done in high enough amounts then the debt would be paid off.

The fact that the treasury borrows some of the money from the federal reserve does not have anything to do with anything

 "GROSS" INCOME of government is now 1/3rd "TAX" income and 2/3rds NON-TAX income derived from: return on INVESTMENTS and money generated from government Enterprise projects.  
http://cafr1.com/

More details on how government secretes your tax dollars:
http://web.archive.org/web/20040708041151/http://www.cafrman.com/

Are you talking about the US government?
I couldn't find the information in the link above...

I thought havening debts is American style of life.

Maybe for now, but at some point creditors realize they are not going to get their money. Living above ones means isn't sustainable.

Search for the first word, "Gross", and read through all of those sections.

This is technically correct, however the amount we have borrowed in the past 6 years is so much that it will take decades of big surpluses to pay off all of our national debt. The reality is that we have simply spent to much money while Obama has been in office.

According to my opinion.
Follow me, Money is debt. Money is created by issuing loans.
If the debt is paid off there is no money, it is designed to never be paid off.

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Governments actually can, in theory continue to issue debt in perpetuity as long as their GDP grows faster then the amount of total debt. If GDP grows faster then the total debt as a percentage of total national income will decrease, thus making it easier to service.

The debts valuation is in US currency so they don't have to. It's in their best interests not to, at least for the time being

Only they will know.. Maybe it wont be paid by money at all. Maybe it will be paid by services, and I mean "secret" services.

A country owning a reserve currency is not in a dire straits need to repay it's debts like HIPC (High Indebted Poor Country) countries. Maybe if China become too hostile...things could change a bit.

Who does the USA owe all this money to?

Mostly to foreign governments (China is our biggest creditor but there are other large governments that we owe a lot of money to).

Another creditor of note is the social security trust fund. It owns trillions of dollars of treasuries which can be redeemed when expenditures exceed FICA taxes

I think they can keep printing money for many years and major conflicts like against islamic state for example, only help the economy. As many countries owe money to the US as US owes to them, so in the end the national debt is kind of balanced.

you have no idea what your talking about.

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/intinv/intinvnewsrelease.htm

"The U.S. net international investment position at the end of the second quarter of 2014 was -$5,445.1 billion (preliminary) as the value of U.S. liabilities exceeded the value of U.S. assets (chart 1, table 1)."

America is a net debtor and owes the world 5.4 trillion dollars.

not only that but it continues to only get worse, America has a trade deficit of about 40 billion $ a month with the rest of the world

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/balance-of-trade

if no one agrees to loan the money, America can't pay for its imports anymore.

it is the debt that backs the fiat.

If there is so much debt...

Why haven't the creditors foreclosed on America?

because...man...America is an idea....you can't forclose on an idea.

The creditors would lose money in this instance because not only are they our financiers but they are also our biggest trade partner.

because America is still able to continue rolling over its debt because China continues to pump those cheap loans like a dealer to a drug addict.
basically China is now in control, if America upsets China in anyway, those loans are gone, along with the American economy.

I don't think USA will every completely pay their debts.   The Fed will just keep magically printing more and more money (decimating everyone's purchasing power).   I think that we will ultimately end up facing a problem like Argentina.

It will happen much slower than that, but once things get bad (I mean worse than now), it is going to be next to impossible to stop the train.


I think the next move is going to be another stock market crash that mirrors the mortgage meltdown that we had a few years back...

you're probably right.
now with QE ending there is alot less cheap money to prop up the markets, all the malinvestments that were made during QE1-3 will start to unravel.

The US will never pay back its debts, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.  Debt is good to a degree, and the government will just keep printing more money.

This is true!

National debt is not the same as private debt, in fact the idea of "paying off" the national debt is nonsensical. Money is "borrowed" into existence, so the debt is a reflection of money supply.

I had actually gotten confused about this recently myself. It's such a ridiculous concept, but by borrowing money into existence it ensures that the share holders of the Federal Reserve always get paid interest.

To pay off the debt is truly impossible, and we shouldn't even think of it as a debt in the normal sense. There is a lot of confusion about this.

Mike Maloney seems to have the best grasp of what lies ahead. I highly recommend these videos:

http://www.hiddensecretsofmoney.com/videos/episode-4 (http://www.hiddensecretsofmoney.com/videos/episode-4)
http://www.hiddensecretsofmoney.com/videos/mike-maloney-bonus-presentation-vancouver (http://www.hiddensecretsofmoney.com/videos/mike-maloney-bonus-presentation-vancouver)

It is just the the debt/GDP ratio is much higher than its counterparts in Europe. This makes people wonder if the AAA rating on US debt is really justified.

Maybe US will pay in carrying black ops for the Chinese.

The current banking system would make it impossible for the US to pay back the debts, in fiat at least. Long live Bitcoin.

It would be possible only in fiat, not in bitcoin. The US can print dollars to repay its debt, it can't create bitcoins to repay its debt.

I didn't read every message in this thread so forgive me if it's already been said but  - the USA can always sell their military assets the way the Argentinian ship was, to pay down their debts. 

Ships, tanks, nukes, etc.. That would be a start anyway..

1 Word
Never !

Apart from the military assets, the US could sell of a variety of assets to pay what it owes.  It's easier being a freeloader though.

Why pay it back?  There is a whole system of circle jerking money based on borrowing and repaying.  People in the super-rich group are happy with this arrangement, so it would be difficult to change.

Unless there is force or at least the threat of force, you are right.  Why should they pay anything back?   They have all the guns, why should they care?   

One answer:  to not look like a horrible risk to future parties buying U.S. bonds etc.   I guess that doesn't matter to them either since they print money to buy their own bonds...  Yeah, this ain't gonna fall apart, ever!

As said propably never. They will never have enough money to pay the debts. And I suppose the lenders are not even waiting for their moneys, I guess they aknowledge the situation too :D

Never, the only way the government could pay it off in a traditional sense is if they somehow tax [current level of debt] out of the us citizens. That I think will not happen, so they will either default or hyper inflate their debt away.

The US will hopefully be able to "grow" their way out of their debt, as in to have their economy grow enough so that the amount of debt shrinks as a percentage of the US economy while keeping their tax rates (and taxes as a percentage of the US economy the same). This will result in them being able to repay their debt

Or they could reduce public spending. Britain in the early 1980s did this, and the Public Sector Borrowing Requirement became (temporarily) the Public Sector Debt Repayment.

United States is a corporation that extracts money from the people through work, fines, court activities, etc., and funnels it to projects unknown to the people, many of which are military in nature.

In 2011 a UCC filing was made that claimed the arms and legs of Americans as collateral for a loan of $14 QUADRILLION dollars.

We KNOW that ALL value of the current monetary system is based on the Human Beings of this planet.  We humans ARE considered "capital" and "collateral", and therefore we ARE "Assets".

Maybe they do, but in heavily devalued dollars :)

for America has an interest in other countries, as long as America became the world's policeman, during the American peacekeepers into the country, as long as America can always influence the foreign policy of other countries, then it will never happen, everything that happens in this world is a conspiracy ...  8)

its called never lol.

I forgot to mention. now imagine all the countries who lent the US their own money.

The us uses other countries like a credit card lol.

the only problem is what will it do when the credit card stops working.

They will never pay. It is the biggest ponzi of all times, and have sucked the entire world in it. It is not going to blow up, either, as the end losers will lose wif it goes, and so will continue pumping their produce in it to make the rich ones fatter.

Public spending in the US is already very low, the lowest it has been in decades. I do not think we can cut pubic spending very much more. It would be better (and necessary) to cut/delay entitlement benefits so that the taxes that pay for entitlements are more closely aligned with the amount of benefits that are paid out, over the long term

It fell in 2010, 2012 and 2013, but it's been steadily increasing (http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1980_2015USb_15s1li011mcn_F0t) outside those (fiscal) years (and is projected to continue increasing this year and next). It was $16797.5 billion in 2013, having risen from $11512.2 bn in 2003, $6878.7 bn in 1993, etc.

Depending how you measure it (and which economist you listen to!), US public spending is between 30 and 45% of GDP. This isn't an extreme: there are developed countries that are better, and worse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending#As_a_percentage_of_GDP).

I'm not sure I understand why cutting/delaying entitlement benefits doesn't constitute a reduction in public spending?

Deficit and debt piling up every year said otherwise.

This premise that debts were made to be paid off is false, though it's a bit unintuitive. 

Please think about who they are in debt to? 3 families, it's all artificial and a joke, thank god for the baby of Satoshi, Bitcoin!

Maybe US will carry on jobs for those countries.

USA will never pay off this debt because it's impossible to do so.

Instead, we end up getting Chinese landlords...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/07/nyregion/waldorf-astoria-hotel-to-be-sold-for-195-billion.html?_r=0


You are not free as long as you support this system...and the majority of land and real estate in this country is not owned by Americans.

It's owned by foreign creditors.

So to sum up pages 1 - 7: Fuck USD. Buy BTC and stock the hell up!  ;D

the really sad part is how the American government is so dependent on foreign loans.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-budget-value (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/government-budget-value)

129 billion government deficit just in august, if China doesn't loan any more money either the American army goes starving or the American government plunders its population for money.
America used to be the worlds biggest creditor nation, it has become the debt slave of the Chinese,
when one looks at the data it becomes clear who the real world power is.

Peter Schiff has it right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgMclXX5msc&feature=player_detailpage#t=2417 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgMclXX5msc&feature=player_detailpage#t=2417)

Well they've already been starving the military so next up is robbing us all

You got it the wrong way. China will keep producing for USA and continue feeding them as otherwise if it collapse then all the dollars they have is worthless. USA is in a solid position, they buy with dollars which they know the sellers will try and keep propping up.

you assume China will continue throwing good money after bad forever.
they are already working with the BRICS to get rid of the dollar
http://www.standartnews.com/english/read/russia_and_china_team_up_to_destroy_the_petro_dollar-5652.html (http://www.standartnews.com/english/read/russia_and_china_team_up_to_destroy_the_petro_dollar-5652.html)
the end game is near, once China refuses to accept dollars for products America goes hungry.

Foreigners buying prime US real estate usually means that their economy peaked or about to peak-same happened with japanese in late eighties early nineties.

China has trillions of dollars worth of both dollars and US government issued debt. If the dollar no longer is a reserve currency then they will end up loosing a lot of money. China has a vested interest in the dollar continuing to be successful

nothing China can do will make the dollar successful in the sense that you can exchange it for products, America doesn't produce anything anymore and China knows it, they'll have to take a loss there's no way around it.
other countries are starting to sign currency swap deals to trade in their local currencies directly without using dollars, once they stop pricing their products in dollars the game is over.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/10/10/news/economy/ecb-china-currency/ (http://money.cnn.com/2013/10/10/news/economy/ecb-china-currency/)

China already signed an agreement with England to swap local currencies and now they do it with the EU, they are not going to continue playing the dollar ponzi, they are actively working on dumping it.

If the dollar remains stable as it has been then it will continue to be the currency of choice for transactions around the world for goods and services.

China is exchanging dollars for pounds and euros however they are still buying more dollars then they are selling, making them a net buyer of dollars. It has been reported they are only trying to diversify their currency holdings

the dollar can't remain stable, the American government is running huge deficits and China is not buying bonds as much as it used to.
http://routemag.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/p1-bf095_chinaf_g_20120301185703.jpg
the only way this can continue is by having the fed buy bonds with printed money a.k.a QE, this will create high inflation first in the financial markets and then in consumer goods.
the American government is helpless in stopping inflation because raising interest rates will make it impossible to continue rolling its huge debt.
no one is going to price commodities in a currency that is inflating out of control.

China is diversifying their foreign exchange holdings to include other foreign currencies so they don't have all their "eggs in one basket" however they are still a net buyer of dollars. Their economy is primarily made up of companies that export products to places throughout the world. The US is one of it's largest trading partners (if not the largest) and if the dollar is no longer a reserve currency then the US economy would likely suffer which would mean it would not buy as many Chinese products which would mean the Chinese economy would suffer

The US still has it's "war machine" which allows it to exert it's influence throughout the world. This includes economic influence. The US economy also produces massive amounts of foreign goods and services (including Chinese goods) so if the US economy were to tank then the Chinese economy would suffer as well

Printing printing printing papers all over the place to cover debt with more debt
illusions - ill - lusions

the US war machine buys its oil with borrowed Chinese money.
no Chinese money - no war machine.

if those goods and services are foreign how exactly does the US economy produce them?
if the product is produced in China then thats a chinese product, its bought with yuan, the factory workers are paid in yuan and the taxes are paid in yuan.

if the US economy were to tank the world would be better off.
the US is a net consumer it doesn't produce anywhere near as much as it consumes, it is a burden on the world.

Yes, they are the real losers in all these. Serves them right to have kept up saving up dollars by huge numbers. Now they have to keep on buying dollars to hold it up so that the existing ones they have are not useless.

What about China's $23 trillion credit bubble?

The whole world is in massive debt, it's fantasy if you think it's just the United States who has a problem. 

They have to continue to buy up US dollars because they continue to export goods to the United States, not because the dollar would other wise fall. When a country has a net trade surplus with a country it needs to buy an equivalent amount of the local currency, otherwise it will be a net seller of the currency

Well technically China also holds its own for debt
But you have a poiint
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/895604ac-10d8-11e4-812b-00144feabdc0.html

The question though is more how efficient a country is in utilizing its debt and converting it into GDP

Never.. US will pay their debts thru services.

the United States has the biggest debt, and the biggest trade deficit.
its the biggest parasite in the world, consuming 80 billion USD more than it produces every month.

The US consuming more then it produces actually helps the world economy. If it was not for the US demand then there would not be demand for as much labor (read: jobs) as there otherwise would be.

The Chinese economy would suffer if the US were to reduce it's demand for Chinese products, and it has after the past several US economic downturns.

The US has other ways to finance it's budget deficit other then Chinese borrowing, especially in times of war

You're talking as if labor is not a means but a goal.
why do people work? to produce goods they can trade for other things they want.
what good is it to give your goods to someone who has nothing to give you for it except useless I.O.U papers?
working to produce goods to "sell" to America is as good as working and burning all the goods you produce.

if China doesn't loan the US money the only way to "finance" its budget deficit is by printing more money which will bring hyperinflation.

You are a funny guy. Thanks for the laughs.

They will never pay anything back.

Never will they pay their debts. Even if they pay or not, nothing will ever happen to them because the world's reserve currency is still in USD. Unless that change..

They won't even try to pay their debts, as long as they rule this world.

A country consuming more then it produces does not make it a parasite. It means that it has the economic "credit" to be able to borrow such amounts and that it's country is stable enough so that other countries are willing to invest in the US. If this was not the case then currency markets would adjust so that the trade deficit would disappear and the US dollar would be much weaker

a country that consistently for 20 years consumes more than it produces is by definition a parasite, and the world would have had more goods if it didnt exist because its a consistent burden on the world.

Rich men who live off their inherited wealth are parasites?

Never, never, never. Debts of USA is too much big to be payed. Anyway, if USA will begin to sell his oils, there would be a prospect to save the american economy.

no, but America isn't a rich man.
its a deadbeat that owes trillions in debts and yet continues to live beyond its means on borrowed money.

America is a rich man, if countries were people. China is nothing more than a labor slave for cheaply made everything. China will never come looking for repayment on our debt to them. Why would they, why would anyone? You must be aware that America does in fact rule the economic policy of the world.

A deadbeat is generally considered to be someone who does not pay their debts regardless of their standard of living compared to the standard of living they can afford. The US government has yet to default (not pay) on their debts

China's appetite for USD is not infinite. At one point, they will either spend their USD or collect their debt from the US.

If it wants to continue to export more goods to the US then it imports then it will need to continue to buy dollars at the current rate. This is especially true if China wants to keep it's currency artificially low, which it does.

Mike Norman explains

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaaQAg5_-f8

someone who owes the rest of the world 4.7 trillion USD is not a rich man, hes a debt slave.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/external-debt (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/external-debt)

are you seriously asking why would anyone come collecting the money they are owed?

America used to rule the economic policy of the world more than 30 years ago when it was the biggest creditor nation and the world owed it money for all the goods it exported to them.
America today is a debt slave of China.

You really don't understand how life works.  If I owe you a billion dollars and I'm stronger than you?  I got you by the balls, not the other way around :-\

http://s30.postimg.org/c8pq9opb5/Capture.jpg

Unless the only way you can survive is if i continue loaning you money.
they American government is consistently running huge deficits, the only way the it can continue to function is if China continues making the loans.
not only that but America needs a loan of 40 billion every month to keep paying for its imports.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/balance-of-trade (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/balance-of-trade)

its clear to me who has who by the balls, and its not the guy who goes hungry if his master stops giving him money.

^Robert, "someone who owes the rest of the world 4.7 trillion USD" also has the power to print those self-same dollars, remember?  You told me that yourself, or another smart feller just like u did.  We don't "needs a loan of 40 billion every month," Robert.
We're a producer country, a manufacturing powerhouse.
We can print "40 billion every month" all by ourselves 8)

There have been many points in US history where they could have paid back the entirety of its debt, however it was originally a strategic position to hold onto a bit of debt. IE if the US owes China a bunch of money, and then Canada moves in to attack the US, it would be in China's best interest to help protect its own money. The question is, has the US dug itself in too deep? I think probably, but with drastic measures and 20 years of a miserable tax increase, the debt could be paid off. Might be easier to just default and go to USD (are we on 4.0 now?)

Have you considered exactly what US "defaulting" on its debts would bring about?  Are you picturing debt collectors?  China choosing not to trade with us any more?
Taunting us on the interwebs perhaps?

As long as debt levels are sustainable, the US will not have any problems in rolling over its debt.
If we try to pay off our debts totally, we are essentially punishing this generation for the sins of past US governments.

why bother printing, just tell the Chinese you won't pay it back, after all paying back in useless papers is not really paying back, the Chinese aren't stupid.
the only problem is they won't loan any more money and America won't be able to import anymore.

America hasn't been a manufacturing powerhouse for 30 years now, if it was it wouldn't have a 40 billion per month trade deficit.

China won't export to the US anymore, the US goes hungry e.g massive shortages of products.

China doesn't "loan money" to US.  But to humor you:  
The money owed China is USD, nothing else--not gold, not chickens, not socks.
Dollars, Robert.  American Dollars.  Dollars the whole world wants, and we print.

We will print up teh $$ to pay China back.  Slowly.  Maybe.  If China behaves itself & doesn't piss us off.

But you, Robert, you should feel free to inform China about the state of its debt.  Just call 911 and ask the operator to put you through to the Big Cheese in China, say "matter of world importance."
We get calls like that often, from concerned smart citizens such as yourself.
We know just what to do.

http://s4.postimg.org/9p4k1hj7x/Capture.jpg

  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords.

USA will never pay their debts, it is so much that usa can not be paid in a reasonable time.

China does not lend money directly to the US, but rather buys treasury securities from primary dealers of treasuries (who buy treasuries directly from the treasury). The semantics of how they own USG debt is really not the point.

You are correct to say that China is owed US dollars, which is the currency that the US government prints and has the ability to print at it's will

The petrol dollar, it all starts there. CEO of Total who was an opponent of the petrol dollar, plane crash just now...... Yeah right.

what a coincidence

The thing with countries debt is that it never will get paid because they will never stop lending money so they're kept in perpetual state of debt which is what the debitors want. The money just gets drip fed, but the debt will never be cleared.

America has a net debt (that is liabilities minus assets) of 4.7 trillion to foreigners.
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/external-debt (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/external-debt)
and yes, its never getting paid back, at least not in the same purchasing power, its only a question of when the default/inflation will happen.
it will 100% happen eventually, America's lenders won't continue throwing good money after bad forever, and indeed they are already stopping.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11146844/New-Yorks-iconic-Waldorf-Astoria-sold-to-Chinese-businessmen.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11146844/New-Yorks-iconic-Waldorf-Astoria-sold-to-Chinese-businessmen.html)

the Chinese bought the Waldorf Astoria one of America's most famous hotels.
if you told this anyone 50 years ago they would laugh at you.
its a good thing the white house and the statue of liberty aren't for sale, or the Chinese would just put it on a steam boat back to China too.

America has become a Chinese debt slave and a joke.

From reading this thread, I can only conclude that no one here is older than about 30 years old.  20 years ago, the Japanese were buying up all sorts of iconic American properties^*.  Oh, and in the 70s and 80s, it was the Arabs "on the corner buying everything in sight"^**.

At any rate, no nation that borrows in its own currency (such as the USA) ever needs to have a formal default.  The reason is that we can (and do) use the informal default of inflation.

Also nice to see the insane "money is debt and you can't pay it off" crew making a good showing in this thread.

* 1992 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rising_Sun_%28novel%29).  Fiction, but it shows the mood.
** Happy Birthday (http://www.elyrics.net/read/w/weird-al-yankovic-lyrics/happy-birthday-lyrics.html) from 1982 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Weird_Al%22_Yankovic_%28album%29)

ever since the dollar started being fiat paper in 71 foreigners started taking America apart, until today where it got to the point where China can pretty much buy all of it in cash.
and the American sheeple actually believe they have an army  ::) America's army is financed by Chinese loans, without those loans the dollar would hyperinflate in a year and the war machine would grind to a halt.

the only thing insane is continuing to allow a group of people to legally print the only currency that is accepted for the payment of taxes and loaning it with interest to the public.

banks produce nothing of value and yet they are worth billions, they are parasites living off the goods produced by the real working population.

US probably would not be able to pay their debt ever. But that doesn't matter as long as it is the reserve currency of the world, since it will always find creditors in the form of international investors till then...

US wont pay anything in cash..It might be paid thru military services or the likes.

There is a collapse in systems that cause defaults every 200 years, the debt would take more than 200 years to get paid.... do the math.

I am blind. I don't see anything.

Given that debt-to-gdp ratio is over 100% now and anything over 90% is a drag on economic growth usa should at least crank out a few trillion or so new greenbacks so you don’t have to borrow for a while. Once your debt ratio is down to a manageable 50% you could give the printing presses a rest and hold a big celebration.

The important thing here is for the US to play a balancing act. Any moves too big make people start to question how the system works and causes them to think critically about the cycles in place. As long as everything seems professional and above board and with oversight and thoughtfulness, it will pass over.

This coupled with the very low rates of corruption in the United States make it seem like a paradise compared to the largesse you find in navigating resources in lots of other countries. As long as the system seems solid and grounded, and as long as the military is big enough to thwart everyone else, and as long as people will keep borrowing dollars.... well you get my drift.

They can't pay their debts, every economy is based on debt and for it to continue expanding there must be something that pushes industries and states forward. Debt that is, for how stupid it sounds it seems to have worked until now. Needless to say things are not looking good for the future and if there isn't a change in how economy works (take a look to resource based economy) there won't be much to be done. I'm not saying there will be a catastrophe, but rather that there's no way to mantain the status quo: things will change either we decide what to do next or we lose control of it all.

Corruption levels in the US might be low when compared to developing countries, but it is still not insignificant.

one word answer is
Never

looks at their total Debts, and it keep increasing
it is impossible to pay back their all debts,

Correct.. Maybe there is some agreement between the countries not to pay in cash/money maybe pay them to make US their ally forever.

USA can certainly pay, with their FBI forfeited BTCs.

The bondholders must be willing to accept BTC for their USD paper.  :P

A question to many of the replies:

What negative effect does U.S. debt have on the government/economy?
Who does the U.S. actually owe this enormous debt to?

Virtually nothing in your post is correct.

The dollar has been fiat paper since long before 1971.  What happened in 1971 was a "solution" to Triffin's Dilemma.

China's dollar holdings are off by a couple orders of magnitude from being able to "buy all of it in cash".

The military is not particularly financed by Chinese loans.  In fact, China doesn't make any loans as such.  What really happens is that dollars flood into China in trade for manufactured goods, and the Chinese central bank has to do something with them.  In the past, they've used them to buy US Treasuries, which are essentially dollars in different packaging.  Though the end result is similar, buying debt instruments on the market isn't what most people have in mind when they think of someone "making a loan".

At any rate, Chinese holdings (http://www.treasury.gov/ticdata/Publish/mfh.txt) are pretty much flat, and have been for a while now.  This reflects an appetite for risk on the part of the Chinese central bank more than anything else.  During times of crisis, global demand for safety rises, and treasuries do quite well, because as bad as it is in the US, it tends to be far worse elsewhere.

Banks do produce much of value.  It is just hard to see that right now because their productive work is swamped by gambling and manipulation schemes.  Your gripe should really be with the governments that have turned them into instruments of the state, and that shelter them from losses.  It is hard to imagine an industry that wouldn't be similarly corrupt if raised in a similar environment.  If your industry was given a stack of signed blank checks and told to do whatever they like so long as they don't cross a few arbitrary regulatory lines, how long do you think virtue would last?

Fiat will eventually and inevitably collapse, as it has throughout all of history. Who cares if the USA pays their debts back, which they probably wont be able to since the whole system is built on accruing debt.

This.
+1.

It is impossible unless all billionaires...and then some chip in.
Highly unlikely though.

The interest itself is putting them into even more debt beyond belief.

before 1971 America was promising other governments that they could turn in their dollars and get gold, that means the dollar was backed by gold and was not fiat (or at least so it was claimed).
Nixon even said he was suspending the convertibility to gold only temporarily, of course today we know it was just another lie and the temporary is permanent.

the military is funded by the government, the government has been running deficits consistently for 15 years at least.
whats a deficit? it means it wastes more money than it gets in from taxing (robbing) the local population.
where does the difference come from? from selling government bonds of which the biggest buyers used to be the Chinese followed by the Japanese.
these bonds have to be repaid with interest, hence they are exactly the same as a loan no matter how you spin it.

of course these days the biggest buyer of bonds is the federal reserve, who just buys them with printed money (purchasing power stolen from everyone else), because no one else is willing to continue loaning real unprinted dollars to America who they suspect has become the biggest deadbeat in the history of the world.

as far as i can tell banks were always a fraudulent industry.
in the past they only ran a fractional reserve racket, today they simply have a printing press and can print the reserves too.

I don't think you understand what "fiat" means.  And the dollar today is no less convertible to gold than it was in 1970.  Just who does it, and at what rate, is different.

If you buy a share of Apple stock from the market, do you think that Apple now has more capital to work with?  Because I think it important that you understand that it doesn't.  It is certainly true that an Apple gained capital, and you gained a share, and the indirect linkage between those events is crucial for the system, but you did not invest in Apple.  In the same way, when China buys US Treasuries from the market, and I think we've established that they barely do this these days anyway, they aren't loaning anyone anything.  They are purchasing an income stream created when someone else (the primary dealer banks) made the loan.  But even that is wrong, because the Treasury created the loan to itself and then sold the income stream off as a bond.

You have a perversely money-centric view of things.  If you think of government spending in terms of wealth (goods and services), rather than money, it may snap into place for you.

P.S.  The concept of "real unprinted dollars" leaves me speechless.

In a related note, is there any major country that is completely debt-free?

Everyone seems to be owing something to someone else.

It's never going to happen. Those numbers are a joke: trillion, quadrillion, sentillion, zillion, they will just keep adding zeros.

No point trying to pay back the debt if it is still being used as a reserve currency. Until the status quote changes and "real asset" is being demanded to repay the debt, the debt will probably continue to pile up.

U jelly?

http://s27.postimg.org/ua7zsdl3n/Capture.jpg

Yet those countries all seem to be growing. Year in and Year out. Owing is just the promise to labor for someone else in the future. Also we mostly owe ourselves regardless of the China myth. So we're promising to labor for ourselves in the future.

The downturn in 2007 was because the fed allowed NGDP to fall 10% instead of growing at 5% as it was for the previous 20 years. If the downturn hadn't happened government debt would be much smaller today.

What do you think would happen today if the fed froze the money supply? We'd have a crash in NGDP much larger than the one in 2007. Why would you want that kind of pain for people? Some sort of moral code that says "don't print more money" because it's evil?

If you want to save and hate 2% inflation than save in real assets, stocks, land, etc. Don't hoard cash and declare that any inflation is evil. And remember, 2% inflation means income is growing by at least 2% as well (actually higher if productivity is growing.)

On a net basis (meaning that have more cash like assets then they owe other countries) then yes. China is an example of this.

You need to remember that even companies like microsoft and apple have some debt on their balance sheet even though they have tens of billions of dollars at their disposal

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/634/987/b4f.jpg

U R King.  You feel the need to wage war, and the potential victims are:
Country A, which owes you money and is slowly paying it back,
and B, a country you are in serious debt to.

All other things being equal, chose one :)

Wait. Wait. Hang on. You think. Wait. You think China has no debt?

It will never happen, no way. Not a 0.001 chance of that. The national debt is a fraud !

I still think they could begin to pay off their debts by selling all their military equipment (that's where the borrowed money went, isn't it?).    Lots of warships, stealth bombers, missles, etc that could go a long way to squaring America up.  I'm sure there must be *some* Americans who feel like shit knowing they are not good for their word any more.

The world should treat America like a dead-beat nation, and start taking back equipment, land, and infrastructure.   American's respect bounty hunters and collections agents, it'll be cool.   

There's lots of land, the locals could be moved to reserves to free up the good land for the actual owners (the Chinese).

We can dream.

It is not possible with fractional banking.  The entire idea is to not pay it off.

You're half right.

You can't pay debt with debt because you are left with debt.  ???

The military equipment would not be sufficient to pay off the debt of the US government, plus there is not sufficient demand for this equipment. Plus such sales would be a threat to both national and world security.

A much more viable way to payoff the national debt is entitlement reform

Thanks for taking my post seriously, though you didn't comment on the part where I would put the Americans in reserves before selling the major cities to the highest bidders.   Of course it wouldn't be sufficient - but since they can't afford to pay for it, giving it to the debtors is a start.  The military equipment in the US's hands has already demonstrably reduced world security, so not sure I can agree on that point either.  I point out that there is actually precedent for confiscating the equipment: http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2012/10/05/the-real-story-behind-the-argentine-vessel-in-ghana-and-how-hedge-funds-tried-to-seize-the-presidential-plane/

"Entitlement Reform" as a means to pay off debt is even more delusional than what I am saying up there, since everyone knows that cutting social services etc will only mess your country up even more than it is already, and there would never be enough GDP in a thousand years to pay back all that you guys owe.

Anyway, these things aren't usually up to the debtor.  China should decide what they repossess.   What about the idea out of Seinfeld, Americans can play the roll of butler for their creditors, for the next 100 years or so?   

Given the actual options, it's no wonder the only thing the USA can do is to invade places and destabilize the world, to distract from the massive precipice they are moving towards..

its never getting paid off, not in the same purchasing power at least.
the best way out would be to default like Argentina but the American government is probably too proud to admit America is a deadbeat and can never repay its debts.
so whats going to happen is the federal reserve will print as much money as will be needed to service the debt and kill the dollar.

I thought QE had finished.

Will they resume QE in the near future or are they printing behind closed doors in secret so to speak?

The way I see things is soon there WILL be a monetary disaster. This may come in the form of a black swan event or a bank failure leading to a domino effect. All this money that has been printed from QE1,2,and 3 will have to go somewhere and once panic hits a lot of money will be put in commodities like metals and potentially bitcoin if the "man on the street" knows about it and knows how to acquire btc.

It's not just the U.S that have been printing of course. We've been at it here too as well as many other countries!


Just my opinion as a UK spectator.

Russell

the US government defaulting on it's debt would probably have a worse effect on the value of the dollar then the federal reserve printing sufficient money to service the USG's debt over the long term.

Also, as mentioned above QE3 has ended so the fed is really no longer printing money anymore

interest rates are still at zero.
every time someone takes a loan from a commercial bank money gets printed.

The fact that the interest rates are at zero is a result of market forces, not something that the government is forcing.

Ha!

They only need 1 good idea to be back in the green again.

what market forces are you talking about.
a bunch of people at the FED dictate what the interest rate is going to be.

for now I think the american debt can not be paid off because a lot of the cost is borne by the American states, such as social costs, the cost of war, cost of defense and security, all of which require a fee in an amount not less, especially just Americans poured some money and infrastructure in order to increase troops in the middle east, but I'm sure one day the debt will soon be paid off ...  ::)

one way this could end is if states start to secede from the union, leaving the others with the bill, similar to what Catalonia is trying to do now in Spain.

Just when I think you can't say anything dumber, you type something like this. Good lord. What level of education do you have?

The states do not actually have the right to leave the union as a war was fought over this right ~200 years ago and the states that wanted to leave lost.

Also no state in it's right mind wold want to leave the union as the federal government gives massive amounts of subsidies and funding for every single state for things like education and roads and medicare/medicaid

I wonder how many Americans actually feel honor-bound to pay this debt anyway?   I suspect, not many.  I think that reputation will bite them in the ass one day real soon!   

Cause we're talking about stealing.  Meanwhile, China and Russia continue to amass gold.

And jewels.  Don't forget jewels.

http://s13.postimg.org/f69gsw8zb/Unknown1.jpg

the federal government has no money but what it steals from the population.
thats why its not mathematically possible for all the states to be subsidized by the federal government.
what happens in reality is that the rich states are paying for the poor.
its in their best interest to leave the union and stop subsdizing the deadbeat states.
a bonus point is that they get to escape paying the impossible debt the federal government has racked up.

Don't think the federal government will allow states to leave the union without a fight, it doesn't even respect the constitution anymore and most states would benefit going out of the union; at least the mistakes will not be made on all states but just on some states and some states will get it right.

States would be able to compare what works and what doesn't

This is just the exact thing what happens if you print money, just becomes more zeros and more papers, but still not paying debts.

The federal government does have actual assets (like land and gold) and revenue streams like fees from licenses and from money owed to it from debt to other countries. 

They defaulted the day they got off the gold standard. They owed gold, but did not pay.

Government get its money from taxation, it doesn't owe substantial financial assets except government debt and bad mortgage securities through the FED

Catalonia has been governed by a completely corrupt party called CiU for years. The main responsible and considered icon in Catalonia called Jordi Pujol is facing jailtime for 30+ years of corruption and scams. Catalonia will not solve shit by being independent because they have their biggest problems in its own territory. Good job at swallowing the propaganda tho.

There's no real incentive to pay it off as long as the US can keep addressing, servicing the interest AND they can control the money supply.

What would be really cool though is if a US President centered his platform around reducing the debt, and only that. If he/she spent the 4 year term not spending more money, not introducing new programs, not ignoring all the waste. That would be really historic, they'd be remembered in the history books for such a great accomplishment. Unfortunately human nature has us wired differently. Every president needs to "make their mark in history" and as such tries to introduce some new legislation or plan, even when it's not needed.

It's hard to call it stealing in a democracy. The US citizens have the power of the vote and if they wanted to reduce or eliminate the debt or taxes they could vote to do so. Unfortunately, there's not organized effort to pool that voice, err vote, and make that desire a reality.

The government doesn't rule the people of a democracy, they only operate within the freedom and the ability granted to them by the People.

The USA will pay their debts as soon as the People vote the government to do so.

It's as simple (and as difficult) as that.

id say its never gonna happen mate!

Just because 50% +1 of the voting cattle are able to choose the rulers and use the euphemism of "taxing" doesn't mean it isn't stealing from the 50% -1 and those that don't or can't vote.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5FNDRgPOLs

The issue is that it is easy to manipulate the outcome of elections which takes away the value of each person's vote

It may not even be 50%!
There are some presidents who have lost the popular vote.

^
The 50% -1 are welcome to GTFO and move anywhere that would take their sorry ass :)
Amazing how many of you whine about taxation, yet are too lazy/stupid/inept/scared to do anything about it.

You may now return to sulking & failing.

Or they could just switch to a stateless form of money that can't be redistributed, confiscated, or inflated.  Bitcoin don't give a shit what the 50% +1 vote for. :)

Sure.  Unfortunately for those who have switched to BTCeanie BTCabies this stateless currency, they've lost two thirds of their spending power over the last year, if they haven't lost it to outright scams/"investing" in Bitcoin "securities." 
And this currency still can't be spent without converting it to real money :D

But they've gained quite a bit of spending power over the last two years.  If they continue to accumulate and dollar cost average there's a good chance they'll do quite well.  On the other hand, if they accumulate savings in fiat they'll just be serfs allowing politicians to amass more debt and bankers to keep inflating the money supply.  To each his own.  ;)

Lol, if the whole exponentially increasing adoption/network effect mularkey has any weight, there were very few users 2 years ago.
What you're seeing now is a typical pyramid scheme profit curve :D

What you've been seeing is early BTC holders taking some profit off the table.  Nothing wrong with that.  :D

Yeah, the smarter of us have already dumped :D

https://i.imgur.com/NYHGrvs.gif

Never. Debt will always be restructured. In order to pay the debt of this size you need to print a lot of dollars, which will lead to strong inflation.

 The correct word to use would be refinanced. The debt would be continuously rolled over, as long as the United States does not collapse.

Ha, so because the 49% in your example aren't motivated enough to convince the 2% they need to change the laws it's considered stealing?

Don't be so naive AND LAZY!

The reality is that those in favor of paying taxes would be much higher than 51%, but I'm a big fan of you taking the energy you've spent on this site bitching about it to getting the population to vote taxes out. Don't blame democracy when people vote against your point of view, use the democracy to change things...

There's no reason to try convincing someone to vote a particular way.  The political process is just a waste of money, time and energy.  That's money, time, and energy that could be spent on more productive pursuits.

People should be free to live in whatever system they want without without someone else forcing their religious, political, or economic idealogies on them.  If the majority of people out there are happy handing over their money to politicians, I say let them--no need to wait for a law.

Political systems evolve.
We have had monarchies, theocracies, dictatorships, etc...
The current flavor seems to be democracies - where the will of the majority is imposed on the others.

With a democracy everyone's voice/opinion can be heard equally which promotes fairness.

It is also better then the other kinds of political systems as all others as the will of the very few (less then 1%) is imposed on everyone else and violence is often used to enforce it.

Russian democracy is very different from American democracy. There is no consensus on what democracy actually is. :)

In theory. Practice has a funny way of not following theory though. In America, your voice is heard much more equally if you have millions of dollars to spend on political ads.

^
>prob'ly Randian liber
>complains about successful people succeeding

Get good, bro, and you'll be heard too :)

I'd settle for hearing others less.

I really don't think that the USA will ever completely pay their debts, unless they just continue to print enough money to do so...

Try to understand that pretty much every country in the world has external debt.  Here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt
Of the 190 countries listed, only 7 (seven) have no external debt. 

All this debt is denominated in USD, the stuff the local lunatic fringe claims we print "out of thin air."
Therefore, according to them, the only thing needed for US to pay off all of its external debt is this:

!.  Fire up the printing presses.
2.  Print fuckton of $$$
3.  Pay off National debt.
4.  PROFIT!

http://s30.postimg.org/do3mcpv69/silver_spoon_by_90sigma_small.gif

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Lol really interesting link, crazy
World debt is also interesting

US of A will start WW3 so we can all start over again.

Just print more money!  ::)

They will never here is why:

If they keep the interest rates as it is now at 0%, then the following will happen, the inflation will rise as hell.So they have 2 options:

ᴑ Increase the interest rates, whereas i think a 4% interest rate rise will make the yearly rate more expensive than the income of the federal govt
ᴑ Keep them at 0, but then the inflation will rise inevitably, perhaps if the debt becomes larger, do some more QE to ease the debt

If they raise the interest rate, they will have to default, and their government goes bankrupt.

If they keep it at 0 and/or do more QE, then hyperinflation will come, and good luck with that, that will destroy the economy.

Also there is a 0.0000000000001% chance that the GDP could rise more than the debt/year, and the debt/gdp ratio could shrink, but that wasnt the case in the last 15 years or so, it always rose except in 2007 and 2008 when the GDP itself shrunk to ease some of he debt. But given that even with 0% cheap money they can barely make a 0.25% GDP raise, they can hardly outgrow their debt, thus, they will have to choose an outcome of the 2 above :)

It is possible, however entitlements will need to be vastly reformed in order for this to be possible.

The US last had a budget surplus in the late 1990s/2000 and it could potentially pay off the national debt in only a few decades.....assuming that is what congress decides to do with the surplus; the last time we had such a surplus congress decided to lower taxes (and stimulate the economy)

These numbers mean the number of tears sheds at boat missers that didn't buy when Bitcoin was piss poor (aka now) after Bitcoin goes above ATH and beyond.

http://cdn.frontpagemag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/trillion-dollar-coin.png
Mint a few dozen of these should do the trick.

Nope its not, with the current speed its not, it has aldready reached the critical mass.

If they were to cut the pensions and government aid to 0, that might do the trick, but also they need to dismantle 99% of their armed forces aswell.

Now cutting the social stuff cant be done because that would be a political suicide and people would really get upset.

And they cant also dismantle their troops as Russia becomes now more threatening than ever as now it allies with China.
Also they got some "friends" in the middle east too, so they rely heavily on their armed forces because of their so great foreign policy.

Other than this, the only viable option is top print dollars Weimar Republic style, and you can see soon the 1 trillion dollar bill /coin as the previous poster posted :D

I haven't read this whole thread, but isn't the point with this sort of debt that it's never paid off and the debt is perpetual? It's not even realistic to pay it off ever so the cycle just continues.

The the debt will be eventually paid off, no question about it, but it will be at the expense of the GDP.

You see debt is like negative money, it creates a vacuum, and until its managable, it works fine, but as soon as you cant pay it back, it will negate all the collateral that it has.

Now the US collateras is the treasuries which the majority of companies hold, if they default, they go bankrupt.The rest is held by the FED, which will jsut print money, and create inflation.

So the debt will be substracted from the GDP, if the debt collapses, it will take atleast as much amound of the GDP as it was valued at, but because the debt is more than it is, it will collapse the whole world with it, especially those countries which hold a lot of USD, or have US trade relations.

The question shouldn't be whether the government should pay the debt, but whether we should pay for our father's sins.

Thats not the government paying the debt, thats the consumer paying it, because the rising prices across the board affects mostly the consumer.

And the savers will lose a lot too.

Obviously, banking accounts freezed and seized, sever capital controls, border guards will not let anyone get out from the country with more than 10$  cash or goods worth that amount ;D, international transfers where money goes out also freezed, in some cases even the current acounts could be seized, of course with the exception of the government officials and bankers personal accounts, those will remain intact  ;D

I`m just so glad that bitcoin exists, so if the price of bitcoin will stabilize, after that only an idiot would put money in a bank account :)

Not if there are price and wage freezes.

What does that mean?

I mean if you freeze the price but you inflate the currency then the shopkeepers lose money and will go bankrupt or just close their business.

Same if you freeze wages but prices go up, nobody will work like a slave to earn pennies, they`d rather go out and barter, probably get into the agriculture, or worse.

savers will loose out - but borrowers will benefit - meaning it makes more sense to borrow and make more debt.

That's why they do both.

What if bitcoin is a long term secret plan from the us government to destroy the debt? bitcoin gets mass adoption first then usd goes freefall, bye bye debt

This would be a one time gain.
The government would rather keep deflating its debt by printing more dollars perpetually.

No because it's open source, it has no backdoors, so why would the control maniacs give up the power above the currency?

It makes no sense.

Plus, the media propaganda always speaks badly about the Bitcoin, if it were a government false flag, then it would be cheered by wallstreeters and media propagandists.

Being the reserve currency and the international trade currency was a huge advantage for the US. It will switch for the Yuan, Gold or Bitcoin

It will switch to Yuan, i suppose, and then the Chinese will start to ban BTC, but due to this pressure more and more peoole will join BTC, because the gold can be confiscated too, thus BTC will win eventually.

Although it will be forever unofficial, as no government will claim it as their national currency ever, they are just too cowards to do that.

Chinese are buying a lot of Gold, both the central bank and households. In 10 years the international monetary landscape will be clearer

He is arguing that if the government had created bitcoin, they did so to cause the value of the dollar to fall so the government can repay their debt with money that is worth much less.

I agree that this logic does not make sense because the government would give up control of their monetary policy and it would be difficulty to prevent bank runs in times of economic crisis.

It would be better for the government to have a strong Dollar while creating a lot of it.

Agreed. The US would prefer to have its cake and eat it too. Plus, the US can do a lot to debase the dollar without inventing competing currencies. And at ~4-5 billion market cap, btc just isn't big enough to make a meaningful impact to the dollar.

Even if Bitcoin had a 100 Billions market cap it wouldn't be a game changer for the Dollar

sadly this is true, but in the long term I am still hopeful for the future of BTC

We're trillions in debt and it won't ever be paid off for the reason it's impossible. Only reduction of the rate we decay into debit is what is feasible.

When the dollar is no longer the world's reserve currency, the debt may have to be paid back.

the short reply would be .... Never...

they will just keep on printing money and Gov bonds, which will only increase such dept.

You know that the debt is denominated in the very same USD that's being printed, right?

LOL,I myself have a debt of 100k$,I don't think I am going to repay!

yes i do, and your point being...?

The point being that if I owe you USD, and I print USD, I can ask the guy running my printing presses to print up whatever it is I owe you & give it to you.
Debt paid, easy peasy :)

Governments tend to want to have a weaker currency (to a point) because having a weak currency means that their country's economy has advantages over their trading partner's economies which results in higher domestic economic growth which results in higher tax revenue for the country, which results in a more of an ability to repay their national debt

Debt paid but it will have dire consequences.


You are right that right now governments in the West are looking to have a weak currency but I don't think it has the advantages they say it has.

Oh?  Then I guess I'll tell my guy to stop the presses :-\

the plan was'nt ever to pay it back....

Scammers borrow money with the intention of never paying it back....on a small scale that is true and on this large scale it is no different.

Educate yourself:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

The whole world is trying to scam the whole world ::)

no that will only increase more debt long term... coz the money you print has no collateral ... youll get more money in circulation which will result in devaluation of the currency , which will unltimately increase the remaining debt

It has collateral, but very low, i think its 1-2% in the USA now. Really funny a the Dod-frank act that they`ve pushed actually was intended to decrease the leverage banks used to prevent any new collapses, yet the reserve requirement was lowered to 1 or 2% i dont remember.

Funny, do what i say not what i do, what hypocrites are these politicians  :D

I do not owe gold or Japanese Yen, I owe the very same worthless paper that I print: teh Glorious USD.
Lrn 2 unit of account.

They borrow not thinking about repayment or thinking they will inflate the currency to repay. As a whole a nation can borrow and the children will need to reimburse which is illegal for a private citizen. Imagine if you could go to the bank, take a loan to buy a tv and ask the repayments to be maid by your unborn children.

People will imitate their leaders. The addiction to debt is destroying nations, destroying communities, and destroying families. It must be stopped before it destroys our species.

they sure are hypocrites... Did not know about that collateral in the US of A, was talking more from the general economic perspective where the known fact is that printing money only leads to devaluation of the ( any ) currency and produces an increased inflation.
More money in circulation, but its worth less, the prices then sky rocketing and the debt will only raise .

they will pay them now with bitcoin, they will not be able to steal money to people

Having a weak currency has its advantages especially for countries which are net exporters. Sometimes currencies exchange rate are manipulated in situations where they expect to have trade surplus for that month.

Why would they pay off their debt? Its a pretty sweat deal they are having going on at the moment. They will simply keep printing more and more dollars and there are more suckers out there willing to give up their products and services produced with hard work for those Benjamins.

As they go more in debt, they spend more and promise more "free" money which will be a problem when they can't deliver the money easily anymore.

Why would we do that?  Our debt is the world's most popular investment.   :D

It was very popular but the biggest non US buyers are not buying more when the new debt available is growing. The system will likely fail slowly or violently as the Yuan and other commodities replace at least partially the Dollar as the international currency.

Not anymore, the BRICS is a serious threat to the US debt ponzi scheme, i`m on neither site here to be clear, but if China and Russia will load up on gold, while Switzerland and other countries reject it, then its obvious who will win the next economic crisis.

Of course china has its own real estate bubble and russia has problems with oil, but overall the us has the biggest problem, which is its debt, if russia and others will denomitate their oil ,gas and other stuff in Yuan then the USA is pretty much fked.

It will be a political fight aswell, EU will be always pro USA, and non-EU members might support Russia, but primarly this is an economic problem.

Please.  The BRICS are a great place to make money, but they are too economically and politically unstable for anyone to seriously consider using any of them as an international currency.   ::)

They will never pay their debts if you know where the new dollars come from.

What kind of debts? There are types of debts. They pay some, but how long can they withstand?

If discussing about the one-dollar bill, then No one knows when Uncle Sam pay their debts.

Yes, there are many ideas which indicates, they pay too little for their mess.

Never. Quod licet iovi, non licet bovi.

China has been quite stable for a while.

Thats funny because Russian has half the taxes that USA has, i wonder where it's more easy to start a business?

I`ve read that in the UK you need like 5.000.000 pounds to start up a medium businnes because thats is the regulatory costs.

How the fk do you expect economic growth from these countries, if an average guy cant even start up a grocery store without massive regulatory bureocracy BS.

I think its much more easy to do it in Russia, India or any other  non western country.

to answer OP, never. As long as the political and cultural climate stays the same, US will keep manually rigging the dice in their favor, with adverse long-term effects

You might want to actually look it up then. Here are the 2015 World Rankings published by the World Bank:  http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings (http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings)

Here are the highlights: Russia, India, and China are three of the worst countries to start or operate a business in. The best ranking countries are generally in the western world or have western-style governments.

https://i.imgur.com/3bDy5FF.png

So...  If Somalia has lower taxes than Russia, you'll start your business there? 
Protip:  Start it under the sea, in international waters.  Lowest taxes evah.

If Russia had a government that would develop a legal framework that would protect individuals and companies, rather than the interests of the government, it would be the best place to start a business. until then, no foreign startup would ever touch russia

Yes. Hire some armed bodyguards, which will be pretty cheap, get like 50 armed guards protecting your shop and you can start right now.

You dont need to wait half year for permits and all that BS, and you dont need to pay taxes there, the only risk you will have there is civil riots and gang mobs.

It is way easier to operate a business in Somalia than any western country.

I'm sure you're speaking from your wealth of personal experience running successful businesses in Somalia, but you and I might have a different definition of "easier."

Well i dont know what "financial freedom" means to you but, if million dollar permissions ,insurance costs and government approvals are needed for your financial freedom, then your economic vision will most likely end up with a global recession.

It's much easier to start up a business if with 100$ in Somalia than with 1000.000 dollars in the USA, you are just too brainwashed by the statist propaganda to realize this.

^Where do you live & how old are you?

U.S. actually could pay off its debts but it doesn't because it is not necessary. Compared to many other countries the U.S. isn't that far it debt because its not the debt in $ that matters its the debt compared to the GDP.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

No, I'm just calling bullshit when I see it. You don't have much credibility after you claimed that India and Russia were easier to run a business in than any western country, and then I posted some pretty compelling data to dispel that idiotic notion. Your views on Somalia should be regarded with the same level of ridicule and disdain.

That is propaganda, DEBT/GDP ratio doesnt matter a jackass.

What matters is the central bank  reserve/balance sheet ratio. And there you see a 77:1 leverage according to recent data.

If you were to substract the debt from the GDP then you`d get really screwed up because the amount of unemployment that will result is horrific.

So the CB is the primary responsible for the debt, but still eventually the debt will be paid off by the GDP.

I dont think the fed can run this ponzi scheme any longer, many economists say that Q2-Q3 of 2015 will be the reckoning day, probably when they`ll announce that instead of rate hike you`ll get QE4.

So the FED is pretty much overleveraged, they lied about "more conservative debt policy in 2008" when they said that they`ll reduce the leverage. Yes they probably did reduce it from private banks, but the FED itself embraced it now. So instead of private money being at risk, now they put tax payer money on the risk, very very good policy what can I say.

I`m in my late 20's and i`m from east europe. Is that an insult or what?

I dont know about your economic views but i know what is to live under a tyrranic regime, so i`m definitely agains these regulations and stupid propaganda manipulation tools.

I`ve never seen any economic boom in my life, mainly because statist regulation and tyrrany , so i`d much rather live under a regime that is totally free than to be enslaved by massive taxation.

In my country you pay ~80% taxes, and i definitely not like it. Do you wanna live in this kind of conditions? I dont think so?

Have you ever considered that that data was manipulated to brainwash people. After all it was given out by the world bank who has a really good record of manipulating people.

In India you have the soundest monetary policy in whole Asia, they have high interest rates, and keep inflation in check, they are not running a 0% interest rate 0% margin requirement franctional reserve ponzi scheme.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/india/indicators

In Russia its a bit more complicated, but atleast they have small taxes.

I think you should check your facts friend because you have been really brainwashed by the Keynesian propaganda machine.

So you know nothing about starting a business in USA or Somalia.  Protip:  Don't talk about shit you know nothing about.


Bro, you're not likely to fare well in a seedy neighborhood, forget about some lawless Wild West fantasy where they'd as soon shoot you as say howdy.


What godforsaken hellhole do you live in bro, and why are you so embarrassed to name it?   Are you having a hard time getting an exit visa?

And the facts would be the inanity posted at mises.org, zerohedge, and stormfront, and other reputable sources?

I like my country in general its a nice place in terms of natural beauty,good tourist place and nice women and pretty friendy people too, but the government is just evil and full of bandits and they increase taxes every quarter, so i`m really ashamed that i have a tyrant government.



Look here, The BRICS is having a booming economy weather you like it or not, they had and still have 3-8% gdp growth /year. Especially before the crisis.

China become from a 3rd world country the top 1 economy on the world (yes it surpassed the USA).

And i`m not a BRICS fanboy, to be clear, i`m just stating the facts here, so obviously the Keynesian propaganda with all these debt bubbles and low interest is not going to work out well in the world.

All BRICS nations will increase the interest rates, Russia just now increased it to 17%, man if the USA had to increase it to 17% they'd go bankrupt the minute after.

So of course hawkish good old Austrian economy works with gold-backed currency, only propagandists dont like to advertise it, even if the BRICS uses it, and gets good results with it, EU ,USA and other brainwashed countries and unions will just never learn.

Its funny as the USA had really good growth in the 50-70 with its gold standard, so why did they left it? Well, because the banks didnt made enough money.

It's just pure propaganda, and now the whole world will pay for it, because the next crisis will be devastating as back in 1929.

Brah, what country are you from?
I don't know what you mean by Keynesian propaganda, or if you have actually bothered to study economics, but if you think that USA is somehow more "Keynesian" than China, please explain WTF you're talking about.

Be specific :)

Ok i`m from Romania, actually if you`d go to my profile you`d actually see.

Well Keynesianism is more like a cult between central bankers rather than a sound monetary policy.

It only grows debt bubbles which pop out at every single crisis. Yes you could argue that stable prices and low price volatility might be improved by keynesianism, but overally its much worse, because now the world is in huge debt.
I think it's about 180 trillion $ global debt, i`m not sure about that number but its around that.

Ist that a sound policy to endebt everyone? Debt is the 21st century form of slavery, a house mortgage makes you only the bitch of your bank, but a national debt makes you the bitch of your government, see?

And of course any progress that has been made in the 0% interest booming era, will be wiped out in the depression era.

So in this way you have to restart the economy from square 1 after every single recession. The only thing that survives each depression is technology, other than that everything starts again from 0.

That is not a good economic policy, its the worst one in existence, i dont know what kind of special retard Keynes was, but I dont think he even grasped his own theory, how much damage can it cause throughout the world.

"The world is in huge debt"?  May I ask to whom?  Or don't you think to ask stuff like that?

Man in what pink universe you live ?

Have you ever heard of fractional reserve banking? 0% Margin requirements? Your CB prints out money from thin air.

The reserve requirement in your own country is 0%, do you even grasp what this means?

http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/reservereq.htm

To whom well: mostly FED, IMF, World Bank, ECB, BOJ,RBNZ,RBA ..etc

They all hold huge amounts of debt, from across the world.

Most indebted countries, check
http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/774/economics/list-of-national-debt-by-country/

Public debt across the world (well well well BRICS has hardly any debt while the western world is crumbling)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/35/Public_debt_percent_gdp_world_map.PNG/1280px-Public_debt_percent_gdp_world_map.PNG

So if the world owes money to [assorted central banks], and, according to the rocket surgeons here, this debt can never be paid, why is it that [assorted central banks] keep lending the world money?
Are they just real nice guys?
What happens if the world doesn't pay its debt?  Do the [assorted central banks] foreclose, shut off the lights sun, and the world ends?
Do you think [assorted central banks] will hire Dog the Bounty Hunter to collect this debt, or will they just keep letting the world slide?
Help me out here.

lol - by your own map, the B in BRICS (Brazil) has almost as much debt (percentage) as the United States.   ;D

(and I (India) is a very light green moving toward tan) 

It doesn't inspire confidence in your argument that you provide no data to bolster your opinions and your counterargument to data presented against it is "global conspiracy" and "brainwashing." I'm sorry you mistook my critique of your argument for a defense of Keynesian economics. That's really unfortunate for you, since it isn't at all the case. You having a weak point doesn't make anyone who calls you out on it a Keynesian, but it was a valiant effort at misdirection.

If Keynesianism worked how it is suppose to work then additional government spending would cause debt levels (in terms of percentage of GDP) to fall because the economy would grow at a faster pace (resulting in higher tax collections) then the amount of additional government spending

If a country doesn't pay its debt, it get shut off from international debt markets. Since these countries anyway have a fiscal deficit, they have to raise taxes to pay for their expenditure. So I guess common Bob will be left holding the bill.

According to your friend, the other learned economist, the world owes its debt to central bankers.
You seem to disagree, suggesting that the world owes money to the world, and the world will stop lending the world money if the world doesn't pay its debt.
So why don't you explain to me how this is gonna work, and why Bob is going to foot the bill?
Who should the world pay its debt to?

No because average people also hold debt, look at the bond markets. Any household could buy bonds, retirement plans have bonds in the portfolio, and other types of investment funds (including corporations those shares are traded) invest in bonds.

If the debt market collapses, the bond market will also collapse, and average Bob will lose his pension, his investment, his house, his car, and his job( if the company that Bob was working at, has invested too much in those "low risk" bonds will go bankrupt).

Yes that is the reality my friend , every single person is exposed to the bond market, even the homeless guys on the street!

If US defaults on its government bonds, your pensioners have more than their pension to worry about: America, as they know it, is no moar :(

http://s22.postimg.org/rnxhl8l69/Capture.jpg

Protip for Bob:  Don't expose your retirement savings to high-yield (aka "JUNK") bonds, and stay away from bitcoin - it's tanking, bro.

It has tanked in 2014 but it could go up or down in 2015, likely up amha.

Will never happen I think what will happen is one big massive bail out to fix things and sort problems out. But even then I doubt it will ever happen. It will be a state that is so bad in debt will never abale to right its self and right now its not going to happen. Only time when debit will get fixed if prices come down on 90% of everything in US and people get to pay their debit off as they have money to do so. If the US had free health cover like in UK and Canada and a few other areas of the world it would make a massive impact as I know people had to have operations or stuff done at A&E and pay for their medical bill couldn't afford it and had to iver increase their mortgage or to even take a loan out to cover the medical bill and pay later.

Vote for me and ill guarantee to reduce everything to make your lives a lot simpler to live and be less costly. And as an added bonus I will make Bitcoin 100% legal and have debit cards as a standard for everone and to have ATM machines to cash out your Bitcoin or buy. Vote Crazy for President xD

I think we`ve all had pretty crazy presidents in the past, we dont need another one.