Bitcoin Forum

Have you ordered a KnCMiner Titan or Neptune?
Are you fed up with them and are interested in legal action and possibly a class action?

I'm trying to judge whether a class action suit would be a possible. Can you please state what you had ordered and why you would sue them?

Do you know a good lawyer or are a resident in Sweden? It would be helpful to have a contact there.

For example, I ordered a KnCMiner Titan. I am a consumer and would like to get a refund, because their products are unsafe (fire hazard, no CE marking), they have made false representations (Q2/Q3 delivery, 800Watt), and because they act in direct conflict with their customers (Batch 1 vs Batch 2).

My other thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=781435) collects information on replies from authorities and lawyers. Please contribute if you can!

Alright,
Let me have the 1st reply to this post,

1. I've order 2 Units of Titan.
2. Yes i've fed up with their word twisting.
3.
A. At 1st order the Titan which giving specs of 250MH/s with 800W power consume. But now is 300MH/s with 1160W power consume. This is a failure. Although it might seems that hash rate are high but using your own calculator you are able to count it how many watts it consume per MH.

B. False description on delivering date. Q2/Q3 2014. For a person direct thinking will be in between. Now until today 14-Sep-2014 as its been end of Q3 yet its just a news of "Titan Update - Brace For Impact: Titan Ships". But they not even can answer anything about Titan are about besides outlook of is like Neptune.
B1 : Why false description on delivering date ? Because their KNC speakers - Kurt told us "Ask any Chip manufacturer how long time it needs to produce, wafer and so on." Which KNC clearly know that Q2 is a false statement. No matter is so call Business or Marketing strategy. False is false. Don't Deny!
B2 : Business to business and Business to Customer. At 1st when we complain at KNC forum we been told by Kurt we are Business to Business. At this September, Keith comes and told us we are just Customer. So what are we ? A bunch of fool by KNC ?

C. At 1st before order the Titan the description is mention "As per Jupiter design". Jupiter design is a full 1 box contain everything without needed to DIY again yourself. Plug in the PSU and LAN cable then you are good to start. But now so call Cubes, Modular design. Which contain a failure design of what Neptune are. Check it out at any pages of WWW. I believe there are tons of picture showing how Neptune burn! Yet KNC accuse users using incorrect power supply. But according to those Neptune users, burning down PSU contains Corsair 1200W Platinum, Seasonic 1250W Gold, Superflower 1200W Platinum. Check it out! So does KNC delivering safe product ? I doubt. You don't design a product that only can be use at Arctic Area. Or you supply the PSU we gladly to pay it under your warranty.
C1 : KNC silently amend their Warranty statement from 12 months become 3 month. The reason is "We had manufacture ASIC a long time with our Quality products we are not needed to supply such long period of warranty" & "A lot of users overclocked the chip until they burn"

D. Totally screw up for batch 1 customer. Why? We fund their data center as well R&D yet we get lousy product and more expensive than Batch 2 customer. Batch 1 = $9995 ; 300MH/s. Batch 2 = $6995 ; 400MH/s.
D1 : They claim batch 2 customer will only ship later 1 month after finish shipping to all batch 1 customer. But does Batch 1 customer had the opportunity of the 1 month gap earning back $3000 ? Answer is NO. NOT EVEN ROI.

E. When i place my order i don't see anything at web shop stated "This items are non-refundable". I only see it shows out after "Super Jupiter Fiesta" happen.

4. I'm sorry that i don't know any lawyer at Sweden.

P/S : Forgive my bad english. *Peace*

Thanks for your reply. I'd wanted to get a quick idea if people are interested in a class action lawsuit and are ready to contribute something if we went down that line.

I think your reply would have fit into the other thread, and I hope my write-up there captured most points you have mentioned above:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=781435

Regarding B2, "customer" does not imply "consumer". You really want to be classified as a "consumer".

Regarding C1, yes they have changed the T&C. KnCMiner will be bound to the T&C presented at that time. I don't think you can challenge the T&C as they used to be different. The best shot for us is to be considered a consumer, as that voids many points in their T&C's.

D, D1: I don't think it is helpful at all to argue about "ROI" or whatever. The T&C do not mention ROI. A consumer does not primarily seek ROI. If at all you can argue about a conflict of interest between you and KnC, and unethical business practices.

I think your points A and E are covered in my write up.

absolutely interested.  Their whole business platform has been built on lies and disinformation. 
regarding the titan:

1.  they knew Q2 was never a reality, yet listed that as a possible date in a attempt to mislead customers.  While other companies like GAW offered their clients cloud hashing as they wait for their orders, KnC began selling hashing power to raise more money besides the interest free loans they already took from their customers
2.  power requirements are 50% higher than they indicated they would be, making it a fire hazard in many areas. 
3.  Charging Batch 1 customers $3k more and giving them 100 mh less is absurd and unacceptable.  Delivery time does not compensate for this difference.

This is just the starting point of their lies. 

Definitely interested - sent a PM.

I agree to 1. and 2.
I don't think 3. is is a good reason. It feels unethical, but it may be ok.

interested, im tired of KnC treating me like crap over the phone. let me know what you need

Is a class action lawsuit even possible with regards to where the company is based?

This:

Very much so. But I doubt a class action is five customers suing the company.
The EU is actually committed to offer class action type redress for consumers and if I remember correctly somewhere in the documents below it lists Sweden as a country that already has a class action system in place.
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/solving_consumer_disputes/judicial_redress/index_en.htm

Let me know if you find anything interesting in there.

Someone reports getting 1540W from the wall with the Titan - https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22290.msg0#new

Yes, I do believe  a class action lawsuit is possible.  I have incurred a loss due to KNC's "Deceptive Acts and Practices".  More specifically these practices:

1.) Advertised Batch 1 Neptunes to be shipped "Q1/Q2" of 2014.
2.) Stated on ordering page of Neptunes, Batch 1 that a full refund could be obtained at any time before the product is shipped.

On the first item:
KNC specifically knew that there product would not ship in Quarter 1, but purposefully led people to believe that it would ship sometime near the end of  Q1 or beginning of Q2. They did this in hopes of tricking more people into placing Neptune orders. They then shipped in Q3.

On the second items:
I asked for a refund in Q3, before my order shipped and my cancellation was refused.  KNC stated to me that my Neptune orders could not be cancelled because the product already started shipping to **OTHER** customers.  This is not the wording that was used on the ordering page.  They then referred me to the fine print in the cancellation policy.  So, they stated one thing on their order page, where it was obvious, but then stated the opposite in their fine print. 

These are Deceptive Acts and Practices by a company who's primary method of generating funds is defrauding people on an international level. So, yes I do believe that a class action lawsuit is in order and I am interested in assisting with correcting the injustices inflicted by KNC.

Almost every mining company succumbs to greed and deceit it seems.

I think if you pull up web history, the 'fine print in the cancellation policy' wasn't there at least when the announcement was first made.  I was able to submit copies of it to ARN.se and get my refund on my Neptune.  I requested the refund on April 8th and it wasn't until it was time for a hearing with ARN and KnC's attorney that the wire transfer was issued (around August 18th).

Did you have to hire a lawyer to help with the process ? Are you an EU resident ?

I'm a US national.  I have not yet contacted a lawyer.

http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupptalan

Group proceedings were introduced in Sweden on 1 January 2003 when the Act (2002: 599) class action took effect.

I'm a USA resident and did not hire an attorney.  I did discuss it with one in Sweden, but ARN seemed to be getting their attention.

Can you list the steps to upload the documents that you took with ARN. I visited the website but was not able to find exactly where to submit my information. It would be great if you could share a template letter, list of documents and so on that you used.

im in for this if you guys make it

Yeah, seeing as how they aren't issuing refunds again, I'll grab my emails and get them on here  so you guys can have something to go on.  I'll try and update this tomorrow when I'm back in the office.  It's sad that it's come to this.  I made such good money on the Saturn I had and thought KnC was going to be great.

That would be fantastic. Very sad indeed but greed changes people and companies

Ok, so I looked and I don't have a copy of the online registration for opening a case.  But if I can do it, it's got to be pretty easy :)

That was in July.  Then they sent an email assigning a case number and login/password.  From there, I uploaded the page from this link: https://web.archive.org/web/20131212133634/https://vwwv.kncminer.com/categories/miners that shows the archived page allowing refunds up to shipping.

I also included several emails with KnC where they acknowledged the refund, but were having problems paying...like this:

Natalie (kncminer)
Jun 09 13:01
Hi,
We apologize for making you wait for the refund to be processed.
We are working as quickly as possible to process the refund via bank transfer, however our finance department is extremely busy at this moment and we are experiencing some delays. However we can assure you that we will process your refund as soon as physically possible.
Unfortunately we can't give you a specific date of when your refund will be processed, however you will receive your refund faster with the BTC option.

Best regards 
Med vänlig hälsning
Natalie Forslund
Kncminer
www.kncminer.com
Office: +46 8559 253
20


Jun 05 14:37
Natalie,
I can sympathize with the delays, but I would appreciate some clarification and time line as to when I can expect payment to be received. I have received multiple emails apologizing for the delays and offering a speedier solution of bitcoin payouts. Unfortunately, postings on the forums show that even those are not happening very quickly.
Specifically when should I receive payment in bitcoin if I send you an address today? How much longer is the delay in $ USD if I stay the course?
It’s hard to make an informed decision when I am not receiving enough information.
Thanks,


Natalie (kncminer)
Jun 05 08:56
Hi,
We apologize for making you wait for the refund to be processed.
If you'd like to speed up the process, you may provide us with the BTC wallet and refund will be processed in BTC. Which take less time.
BTC refunds will not be sent instantly, there are procedures that we must follow before we issue refunds, however you will revive your refund quicker with this option.

Best regards 
Med vänlig hälsning
Natalie Forslund
Kncminer
www.kncminer.com
Office: +46 8559 253
20

 
Jun 04 15:13
This is a follow-up to your previous request #24287 "RE: [kncminer] Re: RE: [knc..."
Liam,
I’ve been waiting almost 2 months now. If I would do bitcoin, would it be paid TODAY? Please give me more detailed information as to why this has taken so long, since it has been in a ‘ready’ state for weeks.
Thanks,
Brent.

This email is a service from kncminer. Delivered by Zendesk.
Message-Id:N8GX

Hopefully you get the idea and can file a complaint to get your money.

Found the online filing here's the relevant parts after names of parties.  There's a bunch of junk due to ocr and Swedish language, but the English is what I filled in on the form.  When filling out the form, just use the translate button.

The purchase
Information about the purchase
* Being and ev. mark
Neptune 3TH Bitcoin Miner
Eg Mobile phone, Nokia 3310
Where the item new or used?
new
Used
* Date of Purchase
2013-11-26
Eg 2010-12-31
Delivery Date
Underlivered
Eg 2010-12-31
* Price
$ 10,166.00 USD
Eg 995 kr
Copy of receipt / invoice must be attached. We will return to this in the notification last step 'Proof'
Bought goods on credit?
Yes
No
Submitted a warranty?
Yes
A copy of the warranty certificate should be attached. We will return to this in the notification last step 'Proof'
No
Did you buy the item at a distance or at the doorstep?
No
Yes - If you answer yes, you must also fill in the details in the box
How bought the product?
via the Internet
When the agreement was signed?
2013-11-26
Eg 2010-12-31
Have you received information on withdrawal?
Yes
No
Have you relied on withdrawal?
No
Yes, the dates 2013-11-26
Eg 2010-12-31Tvisten
Defective product
* Are you complaining that the product is faulty?
No
Yes - If you answer yes, you must also fill in the details in the box
Describe the error
When did you discover
the error?
Eg 2010-12-31
Delay / delay
* Are you complaining that the delivery was delayed (or that the product is not
delivered at all)?
No
Yes - If you answer yes, you must also fill in the details in the box
When would the goods
supplied?
2014-03-31
Eg 2010-12-31
when delivered
the product?
Eg 2010-12-31
The item has not yet delivered
Do you have something else to complain about?
* For example, to remark that the product does not match what
indicated in advertising or promised?
No
Yes - If you answer yes, you must also fill in the details in the box
Describe what you have remarked on
Have requested a refund on 2013-04-08 and have yet to
Receive.
complaints
* When you complained?
2014-06-05
Eg 2010-12-31
* What you asked?
Why Such long delay in refunds
* When answered, the seller?
2014-06-09
Eg 2010-12-31
* What was the seller?
Problems with the Bank and staff is busy.
Any copy of the written response from the vendor should be attached. We will return
to this end notification in step "Proof '
Applications to purchase goods
Allrnénna rekfamalinnsnamnden
@
C
C
@
R
C
Dina Requirements / Application
Here you can read more about the requirements, you can set
What do you want the Board decides?
* My requirements are:
I would like my refund in U.S. dollars wired back to
my bank account.
If you specify multiple options, you should rank them
Requires you for damages?
No
Yes - If you answer yes, you must also fill in the details in the box
My requirements are: (Enter amount in dollars and how you calculated
amount)
How do you motivate your requirement?
Here you can briefly justify your requirements
The item was ordered with the understanding of
Timely delivery or could request a refund. They
Have had adequate time to Provide a refund.
You need to explain more, you can upload an attachment in step 'Proof'.
Applications to purchase goods
Allméinna reklamatinnsnémnden
@
CBevisning
Evidence in support of my claim / request
Enter what you want to attach, and what it should prove
attached here
KNC Order.pdf
I will send it within 5 business days, then I got my
case number
Documents to be attached
Receipt of goods
attached here
I will send it within 5 business days, then I got my
case number
Warranty Certificate
attached here
I will send it within 5 business days, then I got my
case number
Copy of ev. response from seller
Attached here KnC2.pdf
I will send it within 5 business days, then I got my
case number

I am. PM me with details.

Thank you for this. The situation with the high school engineering of the titan is unacceptable. Will be opening a case

Even with Google translate I cannot find the form to complete  online  http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=http://www.arn.se/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.arn.se/%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3Dffi%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Dsb (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=http://www.arn.se/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.arn.se/%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3Dffi%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Dsb)


Cannot select "Purchase of goods" option. What form or link did you use ?

Sorry, it looks like they may have updated the site.  Here's the direct link to the purchased goods form: http://arn.se/PageFiles/1511/Anm%C3%A4lan%20k%C3%B6p%20av%20vara.pdf

I am in the same boat - ordered 1x Titan in mid April, and received nothing yet (and zero information or status updates).

Interested to try and get a full refund - will be following this thread closely.  I emailed KNC asking for a refund, but not expecting them to care.

Cheers
Clay

I've ordered a Titan from the first batch and still no delivery. I looking into the possibilities for a lawsuit or just use the Swedish customers rights to get a refund in USD. I live in Denmark, so if other Danes are having the same thoughts just pm me.

4 Titans Batch one 2 were delivered, 30% of the hashpower advertised. Count me in.

19422 and 19725
count me more than in, willing to sacrifice up to 4000$ in legal costs IF a refund is obtained.
crozoxen@hotmail.com

KNC's laughing at us and taking us for fools


i would like to start a 'class action' with all the scamming customers

They took our money and they lied to us

here is list of reported problem with KNC and Titan

http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/main-category/hardware/62149-list-of-reported-titan-problem

Hi, we are a prediction market and it is our goal to provide reliable information on the likelihoods of events.

We just added the event that KnC will shut down before Feb 2015: https://www.fairlay.com/event/category/bitcoin/bad-news/

So this number are the result of people willing to predict on or against the event. So you can a) watch the numbers to get better felling for what will happen, or b) if you have good information on this case then you can place a prediction on it and if you are right you will make money. (And by this you will improve the publicly visible forecast.

(more on how it works here: http://blog.fairlay.com/2014/02/information-should-have-a-price-but-a-fair-one/ and here http://blog.fairlay.com/2014/05/press-release-09-05-2014/)

You sound like an ambulance chasing parasite

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/knc-titans-missed-quarter-3-deadline-refunds/

Might be worth contacting this guy. http://www.nova.se/en/employees/magnus-daar-2/
The article says he's looking at taking on KNC. I'm going to drop him a line and see what he says.

im getting irritated with KNC titan not coming to me.

I just joined the initiative of Magnus. The more we are the cheaper it gets I guess. Retainer is 1500 US