Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin => Hardware => Topic started by: BitcoinPappi on September 18, 2014, 07:07:19 PM



Title: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: BitcoinPappi on September 18, 2014, 07:07:19 PM
http://cointerra.com/product/aire-miner-bitcoin-miner/

Please tell me that the community have learned their lesson and will not be pre-ordering these machines.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: cedivad on September 18, 2014, 07:13:55 PM
0.3J/GH. They will. But we won't.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: joshv06 on September 18, 2014, 07:26:50 PM
Do not fund these people.

Pre-ordering is trusting someone else with your money.

Don't do it.

Support stable companies like Bitmain and the makers of Dragon Miner. That ship out ASAP.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: opieum2 on September 18, 2014, 08:01:11 PM
Total shit. Stay away from pre-orders. Batch orders are fine (like bitmaintech does). Those are just lead times. 2-3 weeks from order or in hand already. Cointerra has not even built this hardware yet. Tapeout is not done according to the article. That means these machines are months away. So any purchase now is a loss. EVEN if BTC increases. Stick with anyone who ships within a month is better.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: mwizard on September 18, 2014, 08:49:25 PM
The Cointerra AIRE miner Terms and Conditions are really tough.

They leave the purchaser no way out, but Cointerra lots of wiggle room.  Basically don't expect a refund if the 16mm machine does not come up to specifications and is not delivered until September 2015.

From the T&Cs

"2.         PURCHASES ARE FINAL:

ALL PURCHASES ARE FINAL, NON-CANCELABLE AND NON-REFUNDABLE. NO CANCELLATION OR RESCHEDULING OF ORDERS BY YOU WILL BE ACCEPTED."

and

"6.         PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS; DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTIES; CHANGED OR DISCONTINUED PRODUCT

6.1       All Product specifications, illustrations, drawings, particulars, dimensions, performance data and other information on the site or made available by us are intended to represent no more than a general illustration of the Product and its features and do not constitute a warranty or representation by us that the Product will conform with the same. For Products that have not been officially released (“Pre-release Products”), the performance specification shall be considered as the target specification and not a guarantee of performance."


The T&Cs also require you to give up your right to litigate in courts and class actions.  Any disputes must be resolved by an arbitrator in Austin, Texas.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Zelek Uther on September 18, 2014, 08:54:36 PM
Didn't Cointerra miss their specifications on their first ASIC? The 28nm TerraMiner IV was sold as a pre-order for a 2TH/s unit... didn't the actual product perform at 1.6 TH/s?

I heard there was quite a high percentage of failures too: units that wouldn't hash.

Now would be a good time for some TerraMiner IV customers to chime in with their experiences.

Given their terrible track record on a mature process like 28nm, the chances look pretty grim that they will deliver 16nm on spec and on deadline. People pre-ordering this product should be prepared for endless delays and excuses for why the miners are not available yet. Wanting a refund once the product is 3 to 6 months late? Sorry, no refunds. Check out the sales terms:
http://cointerra.com/aireminer-terms/

Quote
2.         PURCHASES ARE FINAL:

ALL PURCHASES ARE FINAL, NON-CANCELABLE AND NON-REFUNDABLE. NO CANCELLATION OR RESCHEDULING OF ORDERS BY YOU WILL BE ACCEPTED.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: s1lverbox on September 18, 2014, 08:57:59 PM
If anyone will fund them with money that means people didn't learn lesson.

Preorder are just sow wrong.
After BFL, now this...


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: RoadStress on September 18, 2014, 08:58:12 PM
DO NOT BUY FROM COINTERRA! you have been warned!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: TheJuice on September 18, 2014, 09:00:27 PM
Even if they did deliver 4.5 TH at 1300 watts, which is unlikely, the $2500 price makes this a horrible investment. Even delivery on Jan 1 with a 6% diff increased these will LOSE money. at 5% there will break even.... in late 2016.

Stay clear.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: cedivad on September 18, 2014, 09:43:36 PM
Sorry, no refunds. Check out the sales terms:
http://cointerra.com/aireminer-terms/
It would be interesting to hear the opinion of a lawyer on this. It's not a sale, it's a preorder. There are laws against tos refusing to refund preorders, at least in california.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Syke on September 18, 2014, 09:49:57 PM
Their estimate on when it will ship is 3 months wide. In other words, they have no fucking clue when it'll ship, and no refunds or compensation if they don't meet that monster window. Anyone pre-ordering that is an idiot.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: RoadStress on September 18, 2014, 09:55:35 PM
Sorry, no refunds. Check out the sales terms:
http://cointerra.com/aireminer-terms/
It would be interesting to hear the opinion of a lawyer on this. It's not a sale, it's a preorder. There are laws against tos refusing to refund preorders, at least in california.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/9/17/6334533/online-retailers-ftc-shipping-rules


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: DebitMe on September 18, 2014, 09:56:08 PM
Their estimate on when it will ship is 3 months wide. In other words, they have no fucking clue when it'll ship, and no refunds or compensation if they don't meet that monster window. Anyone pre-ordering that is an idiot.

Didn't the KNC Neptune have an order window of 6 months?  (Q1 and Q2 of 2014?) Just goes to show that people see dollar signs in front of their eyes.

And yes, it is true that their ToS is stupid and bullshit and wouldn't hold up in court, but they put them there to try to deter people from going that route.  You would absolutely win in any court quiet easily actually, but the easier thing to do would be to not order in the first place.

JUST SAY NO TO PRE-ORDERS!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: s1gs3gv on September 18, 2014, 09:59:14 PM
JUST SAY NO TO PRE-ORDERS!

NO


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: seriouscoin on September 18, 2014, 10:04:27 PM
Wow, Suckers/idiots dont deserve to have any money, so guys.... pls order. I want it sold out within 48hrs!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: -ck on September 18, 2014, 10:04:38 PM
Cointerra contacted me early on to develop a driver for their 28nm offer. However I've heard and know precisely nothing about this new offering.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Unacceptable on September 18, 2014, 10:13:10 PM
https://i.imgur.com/oXuUVaO.png


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Gleb Gamow on September 18, 2014, 10:18:57 PM
Cointerra contacted me early on to develop a driver for their 28nm offer. However I've heard and know precisely nothing about this new offering.

Ergo, filmware not included.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: seriouscoin on September 18, 2014, 10:19:31 PM
Cointerra contacted me early on to develop a driver for their 28nm offer. However I've heard and know precisely nothing about this new offering.
Pls for the sake of the community and your reputation. Dont work with them ever, they're probably gonna use your name to attract more newbies.



Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Gogreen on September 18, 2014, 11:12:06 PM
No!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dropt on September 18, 2014, 11:20:12 PM
Remember folks: This company missed their targets: power, hashrate, and shipping on their first attempt.  They also provided lackluster support to any of their customers, and in the face of everyone that bought HW, they opened up their own mine to sell power to people at an enormously inflated 'ripoff' price.

Learn from the mistakes of those before you, don't pre-order, and most certainly don't pre-order from Cointerra.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Blazed on September 18, 2014, 11:21:06 PM
Remember folks: This company missed their targets: power, hashrate, and shipping on their first attempt.  They also provided lackluster support to any of their customers, and in the face of everyone that bought HW, they opened up their own mine to sell power to people at an enormously inflated 'ripoff' price.

Learn from the mistakes of those before you, don't pre-order, and most certainly don't pre-order from Cointerra.


I think what is in red pretty much sums it up! regardless of the company.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Zelek Uther on September 19, 2014, 12:47:22 AM
Cointerra contacted me early on to develop a driver for their 28nm offer. However I've heard and know precisely nothing about this new offering.
For newbies not aware: ckolivas is the primary developer of cgminer.

The AIRE product is vapourware at this point, or should I say vapourwAIRE.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: daddyfatsax on September 19, 2014, 01:02:50 AM
If you are even thinking about pre-ordering any hardware, especially from Cointerra, just send me the coins. I will make much better use of them.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: MellisaBTC on September 19, 2014, 01:25:09 AM
http://cointerra.com/product/aire-miner-bitcoin-miner/

Please tell me that the community have learned their lesson and will not be pre-ordering these machines.

Learn a lesson? Nah. I am going to pre-order it.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dogie on September 19, 2014, 03:31:51 AM
Cointerra contacted me early on to develop a driver for their 28nm offer. However I've heard and know precisely nothing about this new offering.
Pls for the sake of the community and your reputation. Dont work with them ever, they're probably gonna use your name to attract more newbies.

I wouldn't begrudge ckol for doing this. Its how he makes a living and quite simply if he won't work for them they will find someone who will. At least the buyers who get sucked into the preorder will know that 1) the software has a better chance of working and 2) at least someone on the inside has some morals.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: seriouscoin on September 19, 2014, 03:54:27 AM
Cointerra contacted me early on to develop a driver for their 28nm offer. However I've heard and know precisely nothing about this new offering.
Pls for the sake of the community and your reputation. Dont work with them ever, they're probably gonna use your name to attract more newbies.

I wouldn't begrudge ckol for doing this. Its how he makes a living and quite simply if he won't work for them they will find someone who will. At least the buyers who get sucked into the preorder will know that 1) the software has a better chance of working and 2) at least someone on the inside has some morals.

So because you make a living by being a driver. Its ok for you to be a gateaway driver in a bank robbery?

Stupid, if you work with/for criminals, your reputation is tainted. I'm sure they would use his name to make it sounds more legit. His actual work probably wont benefit any of the "customers"..... or "investors"


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dogie on September 19, 2014, 04:20:09 AM
Cointerra contacted me early on to develop a driver for their 28nm offer. However I've heard and know precisely nothing about this new offering.
Pls for the sake of the community and your reputation. Dont work with them ever, they're probably gonna use your name to attract more newbies.

I wouldn't begrudge ckol for doing this. Its how he makes a living and quite simply if he won't work for them they will find someone who will. At least the buyers who get sucked into the preorder will know that 1) the software has a better chance of working and 2) at least someone on the inside has some morals.

So because you make a living by being a driver. Its ok for you to be a gateaway driver in a bank robbery?

Stupid, if you work with/for criminals, your reputation is tainted. I'm sure they would use his name to make it sounds more legit. His actual work probably wont benefit any of the "customers"..... or "investors"


He's not doing anything illegal, nor are Cointerra. They're engaging in selling practices we don't morally agree with - that doesn't make it illegal. By the same merit you're also saying if UPS agrees to send their packages that they might as well be smuggling drugs or if BOA processes their payments they might as well be money laundering.

They're not going to use his name for anything, no one outside this subforum even knows what CGMiner or BFGMiner are, nevermind who the developers are.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Zelek Uther on September 19, 2014, 04:36:03 AM
Cointerra contacted me early on to develop a driver for their 28nm offer. However I've heard and know precisely nothing about this new offering.
Pls for the sake of the community and your reputation. Dont work with them ever, they're probably gonna use your name to attract more newbies.

I wouldn't begrudge ckol for doing this. Its how he makes a living and quite simply if he won't work for them they will find someone who will. At least the buyers who get sucked into the preorder will know that 1) the software has a better chance of working and 2) at least someone on the inside has some morals.

So because you make a living by being a driver. Its ok for you to be a gateaway driver in a bank robbery?

Stupid, if you work with/for criminals, your reputation is tainted. I'm sure they would use his name to make it sounds more legit. His actual work probably wont benefit any of the "customers"..... or "investors"


He's not doing anything illegal, nor are Cointerra. They're engaging in selling practices we don't morally agree with - that doesn't make it illegal.
Exactly.

There's nothing wrong with developing mining software for every possible platform, regardless of what people may think of a hardware vendor. There shouldn't be any politics in mining software - it is open source software that should simply run on any mining ASIC.

Nobody uses cgminer as a selling point for their hardware... since it runs on any hardware, it isn't a selling point.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: -ck on September 19, 2014, 05:09:23 AM
We can advise people to not buy hardware but that doesn't stop people doing it having not seen these forums, or being infinitely hopeful/optimistic and ignoring all the people on this forum telling them otherwise. The way I see it, for the people who do preorder/buy this hardware, they will be much better served by having me maintain the driver for them than the manufacturer since no one knows the software as well as I do. Trust me, I don't need the money from driver development. The amount I've made on that front in actual contract paid work has been pitiful, and really the main reason I charge companies is because I object to them running a business potentially to make squillions in profit and then to expect me to maintain the software they depend on for free would be absurd.

It's irrelevant since, as I said, I don't know anything about this hardware nor have I been contacted so I expect they'll probably do it all in house now.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: bitsalame on September 19, 2014, 05:20:01 AM
HA!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: bcmine on September 19, 2014, 05:50:21 AM
Just do not Pre-order! At the moment of delivery you are overpaying the GH. 0.3J/GH ist not top of state art. You can still cut it by the half available early next year! Just wait! Dont make Pre-orders! Dont be an investor with under privillage consumer rights[!/font]



Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: jimrome on September 19, 2014, 05:53:24 AM
Do not fund these people.

Pre-ordering is trusting someone else with your money.

Don't do it.

Support stable companies like Bitmain and the makers of Dragon Miner. That ship out ASAP.

yeah, no. just no


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Somekindabitcoin on September 19, 2014, 05:55:40 AM
Why buy that when I can get 9 TH for 3 grand right now?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Minor Miner on September 19, 2014, 06:02:34 AM
The only way I would do a "pre" order with Cointerra again is if they pre-deliver and I will send them the coins after I mine them.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Unacceptable on September 19, 2014, 06:22:28 AM
The only way I would do a "pre" order with Cointerra again is if they pre-deliver and I will send them the coins after I mine them.


I like your thinking  :D ;D 

"Pay-it-forward Mining"  8)  Gotta nice ring to it!!!!!!!!  :D

Remember me if you use that folks!!!  ;)


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: -ck on September 19, 2014, 06:23:31 AM
Support stable companies like Bitmain and the makers of Dragon Miner.
Dragon miner blatantly violate the license conditions of the software they whore for their own use without providing source code.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Operatr on September 19, 2014, 06:34:15 AM
Wow, the BALLS of these assholes.

I wouldn't touch this scam with a 10 foot pole covered in anthrax and fireants.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: jimrome on September 19, 2014, 07:18:31 AM
Support stable companies like Bitmain and the makers of Dragon Miner.
Dragon miner blatantly violate the license conditions of the software they whore for their own use without providing source code.

To be honest, Bitmain's record is only marginally better.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: bones on September 19, 2014, 07:23:05 AM
I pre ordered with them before, and it hurt.  Delivered a little late, under spec, too much power consumed, and no compensation at all.

I swore then I would never give them my money again and I wont.

Be warned, stay away.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Marvell1 on September 19, 2014, 08:01:34 AM
Quote

So because you make a living by being a driver. Its ok for you to be a gateaway driver in a bank robbery?

Stupid, if you work with/for criminals, your reputation is tainted. I'm sure they would use his name to make it sounds more legit. His actual work probably wont benefit any of the "customers"..... or "investors"

^
This x100


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: allcoinminer on September 19, 2014, 08:04:23 AM
http://cointerra.com/product/aire-miner-bitcoin-miner/

Please tell me that the community have learned their lesson and will not be pre-ordering these machines.

First never do a pre-order and fuel these manufacturers with our money to take the risk.
As a manufacturer they should take that risk like we are taking the ROI risk.
These pre-orders are never a good practice, don't do it.
In ROI terms too its not profitable.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: s1lverbox on September 19, 2014, 08:28:54 AM
Wow, the BALLS of these assholes.

I wouldn't touch this scam with a 10 foot pole covered in anthrax and fireants.

for this comment u just earned yourself applause from me for minute and a half....


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: pedrosoft on September 19, 2014, 10:02:35 AM
Stop to asic pre-orders. Stop give money to asic industries ! Only IMMEDIATE SHIPPING !!!  >:( >:( >:(


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: xstr8guy on September 19, 2014, 10:54:24 AM
Good lord! Why wouldn't they at least change the company name and try to mask who is behind the development of this new ASIC. It's not like the name "Cointerra" is well-revered in the business.

My prediction... they will never receive enough funds from preorders to get beyond the planning stage and this will quietly sink into oblivion. Serves them right.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: BitcoinPappi on September 19, 2014, 11:53:10 AM
Good lord! Why wouldn't they at least change the company name and try to mask who is behind the development of this new ASIC. It's not like the name "Cointerra" is well-revered in the business.

My prediction... they will never receive enough funds from preorders to get beyond the planning stage and this will quietly sink into oblivion. Serves them right.

Agreed. We need to stop funding their R&D to have them turn around and treat us like crap.  They have some nerve with those terms.


Quote
http://cointerra.com/faq/funded/

CoinTerra successfully raised its seed capital from angel investors in the Bitcoin and general technology sectors. As with other ASIC companies before us, we offer pre-orders in order to generate further cash flow for our initial production run, and it will be well worth your while to consider this option in order to get the very best value for your money.

Guess they are not well funded like KNC, so they cant say to hell with the customers yet.

"well worth your while" in Cointerra speak is synonym for legal scam and negative return.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: achtung082 on September 19, 2014, 12:30:31 PM
Just say no..... They can't be trusted.

There are better options out there.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: newguy05 on September 19, 2014, 12:36:47 PM
all the crap cointerra pulled over its customers on the previous miners, you must be batshit crazy to preorder from this scam outfit.  Not to mention the ROI isn't even good giving "Q1 2015" delivery and i put it in quotes..

actually you deserve to be taken if you preorder this crap from those scammers.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: seriouscoin on September 19, 2014, 12:40:33 PM
Just ordered 25 AIREs, go big or go home bro


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: s1lverbox on September 19, 2014, 12:43:43 PM
Just ordered 25 AIREs, go big or go home bro


If this is you life rule with coin terra u deserve it to be screwed.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: seriouscoin on September 19, 2014, 12:47:25 PM
Just ordered 25 AIREs, go big or go home bro


If this is you life rule with coin terra u deserve it to be screwed.

oh... you're just jealous, its ok i understand
Soon i will join the big boys club of mining.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: bitsalame on September 19, 2014, 01:03:13 PM
Just ordered 25 AIREs, go big or go home bro


If this is you life rule with coin terra u deserve it to be screwed.

oh... you're just jealous, its ok i understand
Soon i will join the big boys club of mining.

You better be trolling.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: s1lverbox on September 19, 2014, 01:28:16 PM
Just ordered 25 AIREs, go big or go home bro


If this is you life rule with coin terra u deserve it to be screwed.

oh... you're just jealous, its ok i understand
Soon i will join the big boys club of mining.


jealous of being screwed by coin terra?  Yes,  that's exactly why I comment.  I want to be screwed and drop btc down the drain but have no balls.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: seriouscoin on September 19, 2014, 01:39:26 PM
Just ordered 25 AIREs, go big or go home bro


If this is you life rule with coin terra u deserve it to be screwed.

oh... you're just jealous, its ok i understand
Soon i will join the big boys club of mining.


jealous of being screwed by coin terra?  Yes,  that's exactly why I comment.  I want to be screwed and drop btc down the drain but have no balls.

First of all, your sig ad is fcked up

Second, everyone like to be screwed at least once so they're not a virgins. You sound like you're an unwanted ugly bitch. Thats fine. I will make so much money i can buy you a manwhore.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dogjunior on September 19, 2014, 02:18:36 PM
Just ordered 25 AIREs, go big or go home bro


If this is you life rule with coin terra u deserve it to be screwed.

oh... you're just jealous, its ok i understand
Soon i will join the big boys club of mining.


jealous of being screwed by coin terra?  Yes,  that's exactly why I comment.  I want to be screwed and drop btc down the drain but have no balls.

First of all, your sig ad is fcked up

Second, everyone like to be screwed at least once so they're not a virgins. You sound like you're an unwanted ugly bitch. Thats fine. I will make so much money i can buy you a manwhore.

You are taking a very big risk. Down pressure on BTC now makes any investment or even holding a big challenge. You wait for how long to get your miners from a known scammer company that under delivers product. As BTC price goes down Chinese farms add more machines to keep up. In a few months 4.5 T will produce BTC equivalent to a batch 1 Avalon now.  When and if you get your 25 AIREs they will probably make 1 to 2 BTC per month. Hope you have free electricity and hosting. 


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: cedivad on September 19, 2014, 02:53:22 PM
That guy can't be that stupid, and I refuse to believe that CT is employing puppets... I guess that I will have to change idea.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: daddyfatsax on September 19, 2014, 03:23:53 PM
Just ordered 25 AIREs, go big or go home bro


If this is you life rule with coin terra u deserve it to be screwed.

oh... you're just jealous, its ok i understand
Soon i will join the big boys club of mining.


jealous of being screwed by coin terra?  Yes,  that's exactly why I comment.  I want to be screwed and drop btc down the drain but have no balls.

First of all, your sig ad is fcked up

Second, everyone like to be screwed at least once so they're not a virgins. You sound like you're an unwanted ugly bitch. Thats fine. I will make so much money i can buy you a manwhore.

You are aware getting screwed out of your money and actual sex are different things, right??!??

Also if you think buying gear from cointerra is gonna make you rich... I have some great ocean front property in Missouri you have to see.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: s1lverbox on September 19, 2014, 03:41:45 PM
Just ordered 25 AIREs, go big or go home bro


If this is you life rule with coin terra u deserve it to be screwed.

oh... you're just jealous, its ok i understand
Soon i will join the big boys club of mining.


jealous of being screwed by coin terra?  Yes,  that's exactly why I comment.  I want to be screwed and drop btc down the drain but have no balls.

First of all, your sig ad is fcked up

Second, everyone like to be screwed at least once so they're not a virgins. You sound like you're an unwanted ugly bitch. Thats fine. I will make so much money i can buy you a manwhore.

You are aware getting screwed out of your money and actual sex are different things, right??!??

Also if you think buying gear from cointerra is gonna make you rich... I have some great ocean front property in Missouri you have to see.


don't feed the troll.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: seriouscoin on September 19, 2014, 03:46:27 PM
That guy can't be that stupid, and I refuse to believe that CT is employing puppets... I guess that I will have to change idea.

Why not? the pay is better than jobs many of these idiots looking for.



Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dekodoge on September 19, 2014, 05:33:07 PM
That guy can't be that stupid, and I refuse to believe that CT is employing puppets... I guess that I will have to change idea.

Why not? the pay is better than jobs many of these idiots looking for.



Memcid is that you?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aofalyb on September 20, 2014, 03:41:39 PM
There some words near the bottom of the AIRE Miner page :** Based on simulations. Up to 15% variance possible in final product.
Is that a joke??? ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Faceboss on September 20, 2014, 05:33:24 PM
Gee should I lose my coins now or wait and freak out later after I never see roi!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: jborkl on September 20, 2014, 05:52:08 PM
Please don't do the preorders, ffs they have not even reached tapeout


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Mattster28 on September 20, 2014, 09:46:36 PM
Cointerra didn't even bother to come to this forum to announce this new miner of theirs. Wonder why?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: faraway on September 20, 2014, 10:02:04 PM
This is a highly speculative machine. We will see.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: bitsalame on September 21, 2014, 01:50:06 AM
Considering the amount of money they are spending on Google Ads, I guess they objective is to trap enough newbies into their presale scheme.
Their behavior seems to be modelled after BFL, and that is very worrying.
In fact, BFL and CoinTerra are the only two companies  (afaik) that have class action lawsuits as a common denominator... And with outlandish claims that they are powering 15% of the bitcoins network.
Lots of money seems to be flowing to advertising and on cranking the rumor mill.

BBB rating of CoinTerra: F
http://www.bbb.org/central-texas/business-reviews/virtual-currency/cointerra-inc-in-austin-tx-1000104440/ (http://www.bbb.org/central-texas/business-reviews/virtual-currency/cointerra-inc-in-austin-tx-1000104440/)


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: brontosaurus on September 21, 2014, 07:49:02 PM
Leaving aside the wholes issue of preorders, a machine design using 16nm chips running at 0.3J/Gh is a piece of shit, period. And don't forget that it 'can be powered with an internal or external power supply rated at least at 1350 watts of continuous power', so it's not 0.3J/Gh at the wall, by the time you include the PSU efficiency at full load it's more like 0.37J/Gh - over 20% higher.

It's just another bog standard cell based design which will be a nightmare to product engineer into a reliable system. No vision, no innovation.

And where did they get (or plan to get) the $7 million of NRE from?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Zelek Uther on September 21, 2014, 08:46:53 PM
And where did they get (or plan to get) the $7 million of NRE from?
They are hoping that the bitcoin community will give them a free loan... aka pre-orders.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: brontosaurus on September 21, 2014, 09:43:29 PM
And where did they get (or plan to get) the $7 million of NRE from?
They are hoping that the bitcoin community will give them a free loan... aka pre-orders.

So assuming a margin of 40% they'll need to sell about $17 million worth of this crap - about 7,000 boxes?

Are they insane or simply detached from reality?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dropt on September 21, 2014, 09:48:20 PM
And where did they get (or plan to get) the $7 million of NRE from?
They are hoping that the bitcoin community will give them a free loan... aka pre-orders.

So assuming a margin of 40% they'll need to sell about $17 million worth of this crap - about 7,000 boxes?

Are they insane or simply detached from reality?

Cointerra has its own private farm packed full of their previously manufactured (garbage) HW.  I would think they don't need to money for NRE, but why spend your own when there are more than enough idiots out there?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: RoadStress on September 21, 2014, 09:49:22 PM
And where did they get (or plan to get) the $7 million of NRE from?
They are hoping that the bitcoin community will give them a free loan... aka pre-orders.

So assuming a margin of 40% they'll need to sell about $17 million worth of this crap - about 7,000 boxes?

Are they insane or simply detached from reality?

Cointerra has its own private farm packed full of their previously manufactured (garbage) HW.  I would think they don't need to money for NRE, but why spend your own when there are more than enough idiots out there?

Exactly. Long live Inaba's scamming spirit!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: brontosaurus on September 21, 2014, 10:15:27 PM
And where did they get (or plan to get) the $7 million of NRE from?
They are hoping that the bitcoin community will give them a free loan... aka pre-orders.

So assuming a margin of 40% they'll need to sell about $17 million worth of this crap - about 7,000 boxes?

Are they insane or simply detached from reality?

Cointerra has its own private farm packed full of their previously manufactured (garbage) HW.  I would think they don't need to money for NRE, but why spend your own when there are more than enough idiots out there?

Maybe someone should give them Spondoolies web address and suggest they buy some SP35's? Makes much more sense, dontcha think?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: -ck on September 21, 2014, 10:19:08 PM
Maybe someone should give them Spondoolies web address and suggest they buy some SP35's? Makes much more sense, dontcha think?
Changing mode from rage to speculation, it's fair to say that the way Guy dances around the discussion of the Cointerra announcement and "that sounds and looks familiar" comments that perhaps it already is spondoolies tech they plan to sell anyway. Either that or someone else's tech that Guy knows about. I don't think Cointerra will be doing anything in house this time around.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: wh00per on September 21, 2014, 10:37:50 PM
If it's SP-Tech technology, it'll have drivers :) This would explain why cointerra-aire does not need one in particular :) However it needs a PI/Bone anyway outside the rack case, which is enough hassle if you host .. and since the software falls in the owner's task list, they don't even look to build anything for it. Very risky to pre-order hardware, not even knowing you can mine with it.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on September 21, 2014, 11:14:03 PM
Maybe someone should give them Spondoolies web address and suggest they buy some SP35's? Makes much more sense, dontcha think?
Changing mode from rage to speculation, it's fair to say that the way Guy dances around the discussion of the Cointerra announcement and "that sounds and looks familiar" comments that perhaps it already is spondoolies tech they plan to sell anyway. Either that or someone else's tech that Guy knows about. I don't think Cointerra will be doing anything in house this time around.

just to quell the speculation, Cointerra designed their new 16nm chip completely in-house in conjunction with tsmc and guc.  and its done, dusted, finished and ready for tape-out.  the power and timings they've quoted are from post layout simulations (the most accurate kind of simulation).  anyone who gives power numbers when they haven't completed physical design, is quoting theoretical numbers that must be taken with a pinch of salt.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: 2112 on September 21, 2014, 11:45:36 PM
the power and timings they've quoted are from post layout simulations (the most accurate kind of simulation).
The "most accurate kind of simulation" is all-analog simulation using BSIM or equivalent. I doubt that they did that. As someone mentioned earlier their J/GH numbers are in the "standard cell" range, thus points to a design flow that is intentionally approximate.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Minor Miner on September 22, 2014, 03:56:40 AM
Maybe someone should give them Spondoolies web address and suggest they buy some SP35's? Makes much more sense, dontcha think?
Changing mode from rage to speculation, it's fair to say that the way Guy dances around the discussion of the Cointerra announcement and "that sounds and looks familiar" comments that perhaps it already is spondoolies tech they plan to sell anyway. Either that or someone else's tech that Guy knows about. I don't think Cointerra will be doing anything in house this time around.

just to quell the speculation, Cointerra designed their new 16nm chip completely in-house in conjunction with tsmc and guc.  and its done, dusted, finished and ready for tape-out.  the power and timings they've quoted are from post layout simulations (the most accurate kind of simulation).  anyone who gives power numbers when they haven't completed physical design, is quoting theoretical numbers that must be taken with a pinch of salt.
Ready for Tape Out????
Then they have big balls claiming you will get your order in the first quarter.   Can you walk us through the project time line on 16NM?   If tape out goes perfect and there is no one else in line, when would the masks be done?   Is it fair to say mid November at the earliest?   Then you kind of need to order wafers.
Geez.   Q1 is really aggressive, isn't it?   Or am I just overestimating the number of days this will take just to get wafers?



Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: bitsalame on September 22, 2014, 06:08:31 AM
Maybe someone should give them Spondoolies web address and suggest they buy some SP35's? Makes much more sense, dontcha think?
Changing mode from rage to speculation, it's fair to say that the way Guy dances around the discussion of the Cointerra announcement and "that sounds and looks familiar" comments that perhaps it already is spondoolies tech they plan to sell anyway. Either that or someone else's tech that Guy knows about. I don't think Cointerra will be doing anything in house this time around.

just to quell the speculation, Cointerra designed their new 16nm chip completely in-house in conjunction with tsmc and guc.  and its done, dusted, finished and ready for tape-out.  the power and timings they've quoted are from post layout simulations (the most accurate kind of simulation).  anyone who gives power numbers when they haven't completed physical design, is quoting theoretical numbers that must be taken with a pinch of salt.

Funny, TSMC is not ready for FinFet 16nm, they estimate to be production ready by Q1 2015 and their primary client is Apple and their A9 chips
If CoinTerra officially said that (citation?), sounds like extremely optimistic at best and scammy at worst.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on September 22, 2014, 12:42:05 PM
Maybe someone should give them Spondoolies web address and suggest they buy some SP35's? Makes much more sense, dontcha think?
Changing mode from rage to speculation, it's fair to say that the way Guy dances around the discussion of the Cointerra announcement and "that sounds and looks familiar" comments that perhaps it already is spondoolies tech they plan to sell anyway. Either that or someone else's tech that Guy knows about. I don't think Cointerra will be doing anything in house this time around.

just to quell the speculation, Cointerra designed their new 16nm chip completely in-house in conjunction with tsmc and guc.  and its done, dusted, finished and ready for tape-out.  the power and timings they've quoted are from post layout simulations (the most accurate kind of simulation).  anyone who gives power numbers when they haven't completed physical design, is quoting theoretical numbers that must be taken with a pinch of salt.
Ready for Tape Out????
Then they have big balls claiming you will get your order in the first quarter.   Can you walk us through the project time line on 16NM?   If tape out goes perfect and there is no one else in line, when would the masks be done?   Is it fair to say mid November at the earliest?   Then you kind of need to order wafers.
Geez.   Q1 is really aggressive, isn't it?   Or am I just overestimating the number of days this will take just to get wafers?

most of the guys (knc, hashfast, cointerra etc) were taping out their 28nm with both tsmc and gf and receiving silicon back some 2 months later (thats after paying ridiculously high 'expedite fees'.  if you dont pay the expedite expect 3 months)  cointerra did it last time in 7 weeks.  it'll be longer than 28nm for 16nm cos its so new... but not much longer.  so lets say - for arguments' sake they tape out in October...  they would expect to see 1st silicon in early Jan (or late Dec if theyre really lucky), and volume production later in Q1 onwards.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: jimmothy on September 22, 2014, 12:47:09 PM
most of the guys (knc, hashfast, cointerra etc) were taping out their 28nm with both tsmc and gf and receiving silicon back some 2 months later (thats after paying ridiculously high 'expedite fees'.  if you dont pay the expedite expect 3 months)  cointerra did it last time in 7 weeks.  it'll be longer than 28nm for 16nm cos its so new... but not much longer.  so lets say - for arguments' sake they tape out in October...  they would expect to see 1st silicon in early Jan (or late Dec if theyre really lucky), and volume production later in Q1 onwards.

How can they tapeout now when 16nm production is supposed to begin in q1 2015?

20nm production was said to begin in q1 2014 and we all know how that turned out for KNC.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: vipgelsi on September 22, 2014, 12:53:48 PM
most of the guys (knc, hashfast, cointerra etc) were taping out their 28nm with both tsmc and gf and receiving silicon back some 2 months later (thats after paying ridiculously high 'expedite fees'.  if you dont pay the expedite expect 3 months)  cointerra did it last time in 7 weeks.  it'll be longer than 28nm for 16nm cos its so new... but not much longer.  so lets say - for arguments' sake they tape out in October...  they would expect to see 1st silicon in early Jan (or late Dec if theyre really lucky), and volume production later in Q1 onwards.

How can they tapeout now when 16nm production is supposed to begin in q1 2015?

20nm production was said to begin in q1 2014 and we all know how that turned out for KNC.

I doubt they will also they cant even get 20nm right.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on September 22, 2014, 12:57:17 PM
most of the guys (knc, hashfast, cointerra etc) were taping out their 28nm with both tsmc and gf and receiving silicon back some 2 months later (thats after paying ridiculously high 'expedite fees'.  if you dont pay the expedite expect 3 months)  cointerra did it last time in 7 weeks.  it'll be longer than 28nm for 16nm cos its so new... but not much longer.  so lets say - for arguments' sake they tape out in October...  they would expect to see 1st silicon in early Jan (or late Dec if theyre really lucky), and volume production later in Q1 onwards.

How can they tapeout now when 16nm production is supposed to begin in q1 2015?

20nm production was said to begin in q1 2014 and we all know how that turned out for KNC.

when tsmc lets you tape out, thats when you get your production slot.  its possible theyre not doing volume production til q1 2015, but bitcoin asics are hardly volume


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dekodoge on September 22, 2014, 02:48:26 PM
most of the guys (knc, hashfast, cointerra etc) were taping out their 28nm with both tsmc and gf and receiving silicon back some 2 months later (thats after paying ridiculously high 'expedite fees'.  if you dont pay the expedite expect 3 months)  cointerra did it last time in 7 weeks.  it'll be longer than 28nm for 16nm cos its so new... but not much longer.  so lets say - for arguments' sake they tape out in October...  they would expect to see 1st silicon in early Jan (or late Dec if theyre really lucky), and volume production later in Q1 onwards.

How can they tapeout now when 16nm production is supposed to begin in q1 2015?

20nm production was said to begin in q1 2014 and we all know how that turned out for KNC.

when tsmc lets you tape out, thats when you get your production slot.  its possible theyre not doing volume production til q1 2015, but bitcoin asics are hardly volume

Great so this will be a test bed for their new 16nm production runs, the yields will be awful.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on September 22, 2014, 02:50:07 PM
most of the guys (knc, hashfast, cointerra etc) were taping out their 28nm with both tsmc and gf and receiving silicon back some 2 months later (thats after paying ridiculously high 'expedite fees'.  if you dont pay the expedite expect 3 months)  cointerra did it last time in 7 weeks.  it'll be longer than 28nm for 16nm cos its so new... but not much longer.  so lets say - for arguments' sake they tape out in October...  they would expect to see 1st silicon in early Jan (or late Dec if theyre really lucky), and volume production later in Q1 onwards.

How can they tapeout now when 16nm production is supposed to begin in q1 2015?

20nm production was said to begin in q1 2014 and we all know how that turned out for KNC.

when tsmc lets you tape out, thats when you get your production slot.  its possible theyre not doing volume production til q1 2015, but bitcoin asics are hardly volume

Great so this will be a test bed for their new 16nm production runs, the yields will be awful.

don't know.. a press release i read says its on the same line as their 20nm so they're expecting really good yields.

also, bitcoin chips are fantastic for yield because there's so much redundancy and repetition (repeated circuits) that they're pretty resilient to yield issues

edit:  here's the link to the press about yields etc...  http://blogs.barrons.com/asiastocks/2014/08/25/tsmc-to-start-16nm-production-earlier-heat-up-competition/


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dekodoge on September 22, 2014, 03:16:14 PM
most of the guys (knc, hashfast, cointerra etc) were taping out their 28nm with both tsmc and gf and receiving silicon back some 2 months later (thats after paying ridiculously high 'expedite fees'.  if you dont pay the expedite expect 3 months)  cointerra did it last time in 7 weeks.  it'll be longer than 28nm for 16nm cos its so new... but not much longer.  so lets say - for arguments' sake they tape out in October...  they would expect to see 1st silicon in early Jan (or late Dec if theyre really lucky), and volume production later in Q1 onwards.

How can they tapeout now when 16nm production is supposed to begin in q1 2015?

20nm production was said to begin in q1 2014 and we all know how that turned out for KNC.

when tsmc lets you tape out, thats when you get your production slot.  its possible theyre not doing volume production til q1 2015, but bitcoin asics are hardly volume

Great so this will be a test bed for their new 16nm production runs, the yields will be awful.

don't know.. a press release i read says its on the same line as their 20nm so they're expecting really good yields.

also, bitcoin chips are fantastic for yield because there's so much redundancy and repetition (repeated circuits) that they're pretty resilient to yield issues

edit:  here's the link to the press about yields etc...  http://blogs.barrons.com/asiastocks/2014/08/25/tsmc-to-start-16nm-production-earlier-heat-up-competition/

so you a buyer(pre-order)


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on September 22, 2014, 03:18:05 PM

so you a buyer(pre-order)

I'm both a customer and investor


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: jimmothy on September 22, 2014, 03:19:26 PM

so you a buyer(pre-order)

I'm both a customer and investor

Will you be satisfied 9 months from now when you are finally delivered your 0.6w/gh miner with no compensation?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on September 22, 2014, 03:49:31 PM

so you a buyer(pre-order)

I'm both a customer and investor

Will you be satisfied 9 months from now when you are finally delivered your 0.6w/gh miner with no compensation?

so youre saying instead of 3 months they will be 9 months for delivery... and instead of sub 0.3 J/GH, they will be 0.6 J/GH ?

on what basis can you make those claims?   these guys may not be popular but theyre also not the epic fail that you like to make out.

i realise its now cool to knock them and since they dont monitor the forums they never get a chance to reply.. but cointerra arent in the same league of 'badness' as some make out.

1.  they shipped!  For that alone, they deserve a prize since so many other asic companies DIDNT ship or shipped months late.. and for most of ct's customers they shipped pretty much on time (they actually shipped most of their batches in the month they were due).
2.  their hardware was 20% below performance target, and they offered anyone who didnt wish to take delivery a refund (and a number of their customers did take that refund) - the customers that did decide to take the miner were given a discount off a future order.

there are many other bitcoin asic companies out there that missed their publicised performance and didnt offer anything at all...  or who were grossly late that the rise in network difficulty made anything that was eventually received worth far less than cointerra's boxes, which in my case, have definitely roi'd for me (as have my knc boxes, but clearly my bfl and hashfast didnt roi).

lets put a bit of perspective on this.. cointerra is undeniably one of the bigger bitcoin mining asic companies.  they currently (ie: today..) are running one of the largest cloud mining operations - running over 10 Petahash using their own boxes.   there's only a small number of other hardware companies that have produced hardware capable of doing that - and the biggest by far is BitFury and the other (same PH's as cointerra) is KnCMiner.  If cointerra's boxes were 'garbage' they wouldnt be able to run that scale of operation - and i believe they run pretty well autonomously.. ie, there's little to no staff holding their hands and giving them constant tlc.  these things are working 'at scale' as well as anyone else's boxes.

so to summarise.. you really think they will be grossly late and extremely under performing.   And youre entitled to your opinion, but from what i know, and also from the experience gained by them last time, i believe they will do a better job this time (but the reality is that the job they did last time wasnt perfect but it wasnt terrible either).  their architecture this time is more resilient to many of the issues they experienced last time.  and i cant buy any other system thats lower power than this one, at this time.   low power is the best way of having an roi positive mining operation.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: jimmothy on September 22, 2014, 04:40:59 PM

so you a buyer(pre-order)

I'm both a customer and investor

Will you be satisfied 9 months from now when you are finally delivered your 0.6w/gh miner with no compensation?

so youre saying instead of 3 months they will be 9 months for delivery... and instead of sub 0.3 J/GH, they will be 0.6 J/GH ?

They never said they will be shipping in 3 months or have efficiency below 0.3 w/gh.

They advertise 0.33 w/gh and q1 shipping means march 31 at 11:59pm not January 1st.

Quote
on what basis can you make those claims?   these guys may not be popular but theyre also not the epic fail that you like to make out.

Did they not advertise 0.6w/gh for their first gen which turned out to be 1.2 w/gh?

Quote
so to summarise.. you really think they will be grossly late and extremely under performing.   And youre entitled to your opinion, but from what i know, and also from the experience gained by them last time, i believe they will do a better job this time (but the reality is that the job they did last time wasnt perfect but it wasnt terrible either).  their architecture this time is more resilient to many of the issues they experienced last time.  and i cant buy any other system thats lower power than this one, at this time.   low power is the best way of having an roi positive mining operation.

What makes you think their new architecture is less prone to failure/underperformance?

Yes, you can't currently buy more efficient hardware but as with all preorders there will be more efficient hardware by the time they ship.

Bitfury announced 0.2w/gh hardware to be released this year and 0.1w/gh in 2015.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dekodoge on September 22, 2014, 04:44:10 PM

so you a buyer(pre-order)

I'm both a customer and investor

investor = free R&D loan.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: RoadStress on September 22, 2014, 04:46:23 PM
so youre saying instead of 3 months they will be 9 months for delivery... and instead of sub 0.3 J/GH, they will be 0.6 J/GH ?

on what basis can you make those claims? 

He is used with AM products.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: volosator on September 22, 2014, 08:42:23 PM
16 nm sounds awesome.
Cointerra sounds terrible.
No thank you!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: bitsalame on September 22, 2014, 08:54:23 PM
BBB investigation on CoinTerra: http://www.bbb.org/central-texas/news-events/bbb-warnings/2014/06/bbb-investigation-cointerra-sells-bitcoin-mining-computers-that-consumers-allege-dont-meet-promised-specs/


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: wh00per on September 23, 2014, 12:10:57 AM
All it takes is that none of the big driver/mining software makers outthere will adapt the miners to use the cointerra chips. Hopefully someone puts this thing together, else all this talk is for nothing .. you still need to build your rig to drive these units :) Happy mining!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Minor Miner on September 23, 2014, 12:26:47 AM
jez,
I like you and cannot fault you for trying to get a return on your shares in Cointerra.
But Cointerra has proven that their first priority was to build a mine and that many of the customers that financed their buildout and enabled them to build a mine, are very unhappy.   I think that if Cointerra now wants to get a better chip for their own mine and equipment that requires less power (for their own mine), then they should pay for it themselves.
As I have said before, the only way that I will ever do business with Cointerra is IF COINTERRA PRE-DELIVERS.   That is simply, that Cointerra sends me the machines FIRST and when (and if) I mine enough to pay for the machines, I will pay for them.

This seems VERY fair to me since we trusted them and financed their company with the communities pre-orders, they can now trust us and PRE-DELIVER.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: BitcoinPappi on September 23, 2014, 01:31:12 AM
jez,
I like you and cannot fault you for trying to get a return on your shares in Cointerra.
But Cointerra has proven that their first priority was to build a mine and that many of the customers that financed their buildout and enabled them to build a mine, are very unhappy.   I think that if Cointerra now wants to get a better chip for their own mine and equipment that requires less power (for their own mine), then they should pay for it themselves.
As I have said before, the only way that I will ever do business with Cointerra is IF COINTERRA PRE-DELIVERS.   That is simply, that Cointerra sends me the machines FIRST and when (and if) I mine enough to pay for the machines, I will pay for them.

This seems VERY fair to me since we trusted them and financed their company with the communities pre-orders, they can now trust us and PRE-DELIVER.

^^^  we want PRE-DELIVERY!!  ;D .  Yup let them pay for it themselves.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: thevinci on September 30, 2014, 11:54:56 PM
I used to work for Cointerra. I didn't like the way they handled things there so I left. It was utter chaos in the beginning with people not sure what to do.

Many months later, I brought a Terraminer and it died on me. Cointerra wanted to charge me almost half of my machine to fix it. I should have listened to my instincts.

DON'T GIVE THESE PEOPLE ANY MONEY.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: graymatter on October 09, 2014, 08:19:13 AM
Entertaining to say the least-

Fact's-

Only devices using 16nm technologies are cell phones, using TINY amounts of voltage and amps, thus, low heat.

Intel's 14nm processor is suffering from massive overheating issues, they are now triyng to work in 3 dimensional space, as the 14nm / 16nm resistors generate so much heat that it melts the wafers.

No 16nm chip produces has had the type of heat running through it like these ASIC's will produce (unlike 20nm, use in processors, and GPU's)


Speculation-

ITS VERY BAD, that no processors, or GPU chips (high heat) have been made with this technology.  This chip will fail considering intel, with 2 years, and 50million dollars invested haven't been able to produce an efficient 14nm processor chip, I doubt these under qualified engineers have a chance in hell at doing anything that will work. 

Do NOT PRE-ORDER, it may take several months to a year before 16nm chips are ready for ASIC production.

Sources - ACTUAL ENGINEER, consulting with engineer friends who work on the 14nm intel chip production plant in Chandler, AZ....


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Collider on October 09, 2014, 10:23:12 AM
To be fair, 16nm process should actually be suitable for power efficient mining chips (unlike 20nm FinFet, which is really most useful for mobile applications).

If Cointerra uses enough silicon, it should be both power efficient and achieve a massive improvement in density, presumably only limited by cooling ability.

I have to agree that standard air cooling is most likely not practical using 16nm high power (density) architecture.


However, closed loop water cooling systems would likely solve most of the thermal issues that come with this chip design. (Similar to the current Cointerra miners).



While I wouldn´t advise "normal" people on pre-ordering this product, it will most likely be the only chance of getting your hand on these specific miners at a ?reasonable? price.
Additionally, Cointerra is by now a bigger player in the ASIC mining industry, with around 20MW of own mining operations, and a good amount of sold product, so the chance of them defaulting over this product is smaller.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on October 09, 2014, 10:30:40 AM
Entertaining to say the least-

Fact's-

Only devices using 16nm technologies are cell phones, using TINY amounts of voltage and amps, thus, low heat.

Intel's 14nm processor is suffering from massive overheating issues, they are now triyng to work in 3 dimensional space, as the 14nm / 16nm resistors generate so much heat that it melts the wafers.

No 16nm chip produces has had the type of heat running through it like these ASIC's will produce (unlike 20nm, use in processors, and GPU's)


Speculation-

ITS VERY BAD, that no processors, or GPU chips (high heat) have been made with this technology.  This chip will fail considering intel, with 2 years, and 50million dollars invested haven't been able to produce an efficient 14nm processor chip, I doubt these under qualified engineers have a chance in hell at doing anything that will work.  

Do NOT PRE-ORDER, it may take several months to a year before 16nm chips are ready for ASIC production.

Sources - ACTUAL ENGINEER, consulting with engineer friends who work on the 14nm intel chip production plant in Chandler, AZ....

clueless newbie - saying that you spoke to an actual engineer isn't quoting a source.  to do that you need to say exactly who you spoke to.

anyhow... thats ridiculous to say 16nm isn't ideal for bitcoin chips and only useful for mobile chips.  what a ridiculous thing to say.   the reality is that anything thats good for mobile chips, which are low voltage and low power, is exceptionally good for bitcoin mining chips as well since they too need to be low voltage and low power.  in fact, i think you'll find that bitcoin chips run at even lower voltages, on the whole, than mobile phone chips do..!

one thing I'm pretty sure of, is that in 2015, a large amount of bitcoin mining will be done on 16nm chips, and by 2016, probably most of it will be 16nm.  its just so much better than 28nm (and yes, even 20nm) that there's no reason not to use it for everything.

btw, nvidia has already announced they're using 16nm for their next graphics chips.

cointerra may have the first 16nm to be ready for tapeout, but i guarantee within the space of 6 months, a lot more 16nm are coming.  its the obvious next step for the majority of the asic companies that want the lowest possible power and smallest possible silicon area (= more dies per wafer).   sure, some smart companies can eek out a bit more juice out of 28nm and survive for one more generation in 28nm, but ultimately in 2015 they will all be using 16nm,.. cointerra's just the first, thats all.  they might be a quarter or two ahead of the pack, but the whole pack is going there!

(btw, 16nm tsmc and 14nm samsung/globalfoundries are pretty much similar in specs, so for our purposes are interchangeable)


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: RoadStress on October 09, 2014, 10:36:03 AM
Cointerra is by now a bigger player in the ASIC mining industry, with around 20MW of own mining operations, and a good amount of sold product, so the chance of them defaulting over this product is smaller.

How low can the TerraMiner go with efficiency? I remember them being over 1W/GH so having 20MW of that efficiency is close to losing money at this point so I'm not impressed of anyone having so much speed deployed if they are close to no profit.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on October 09, 2014, 10:45:13 AM

How low can the TerraMiner go with efficiency? I remember them being over 1W/GH so having 20MW of that efficiency is close to losing money at this point so I'm not impressed of anyone having so much speed deployed if they are close to no profit.

in the web management pages, users have the ability to tell it how much power to use (power stepping mode), and it will scale the performance accordingly.  this should allow people to choose the optimum power and performance for their situation, if they're paying a lot for their power.  of course, with many miners now having moved or are moving to cheaper places to host, like washington state, where the cost of power is less than half the cost of power in the rest of the US (and 1/10th of the cost of power in California)... there will still be a few more months of profitable mining for many miners.   but yes, the writing is on the wall.. and the current generation of miners is surely on their last legs and need to be replaced with more power efficient miners.   cointerra's 0.23w/gh miner is one such but I'm sure there will be others

luckily, difficulty has slowed right down and the next step will probably be the smallest difficulty jump in a very long time - which could allow bitcoin miners to hang in there awhile longer.   and who knows, difficulty might even go backwards now that the price of bitcoin is so low and the cost of mining is relatively speaking, so high.



Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Collider on October 09, 2014, 10:45:25 AM
How low can the TerraMiner go with efficiency? I remember them being over 1W/GH so having 20MW of that efficiency is close to losing money at this point so I'm not impressed of anyone having so much speed deployed if they are close to no profit.
You should be impressed because they have at least had 1MW added every month since April, which got them a good amount of profit already.
They also sold much of that power at a massive profit to their cloudhashing customers, so instant profit there.

I guestimate that it is not running much better than 1W/GH but their operational cost should be quite low in terms of $ /kWh due to economies of scale.
(Then again, only their newly built 20MW facility in Canada, which isn´t finished yet, should have the very lowest cost per kWh).


This recent option to pre-order their newest miner is only a way for them to recover/finance the MASSIVE NRE (which already is around $7-15M for 20nm development) faster.

Actual internal cost of these units could be around half of the current 28nm cost, which is slightly below 0.4$/GH on good 28nm designs.
(Assuming cheap labour costs and very high production volume, a little higher for water-cooled setups).


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: RoadStress on October 09, 2014, 11:18:27 AM
in the web management pages, users have the ability to tell it how much power to use (power stepping mode), and it will scale the performance accordingly.  this should allow people to choose the optimum power and performance for their situation, if they're paying a lot for their power.  of course, with many miners now having moved or are moving to cheaper places to host, like washington state, where the cost of power is less than half the cost of power in the rest of the US (and 1/10th of the cost of power in California)... there will still be a few more months of profitable mining for many miners.   but yes, the writing is on the wall.. and the current generation of miners is surely on their last legs and need to be replaced with more power efficient miners.   cointerra's 0.23w/gh miner is one such but I'm sure there will be others

luckily, difficulty has slowed right down and the next step will probably be the smallest difficulty jump in a very long time - which could allow bitcoin miners to hang in there awhile longer.   and who knows, difficulty might even go backwards now that the price of bitcoin is so low and the cost of mining is relatively speaking, so high.

Fancy and complicated answer for a simple question. How low can TerraMiners go with efficiency was my question. From your answer I understand that they can go as low as 0.23W/GH which I don't believe it. Maybe you were referring to the chip efficiency, not the whole system, but even so I still find it hard to believe it. I want to see it!

You should be impressed because they have at least had 1MW added every month since April, which got them a good amount of profit already.
They also sold much of that power at a massive profit to their cloudhashing customers, so instant profit there.

I guestimate that it is not running much better than 1W/GH but their operational cost should be quite low in terms of $ /kWh due to economies of scale.
(Then again, only their newly built 20MW facility in Canada, which isn´t finished yet, should have the very lowest cost per kWh).


This recent option to pre-order their newest miner is only a way for them to recover/finance the MASSIVE NRE (which already is around $7-15M for 20nm development) faster.

Actual internal cost of these units could be around half of the current 28nm cost, which is slightly below 0.4$/GH on good 28nm designs.
(Assuming cheap labour costs and very high production volume, a little higher for water-cooled setups).

That's a total of 7MW on top (or not?) of their 20MW facility in Canada. I am sorry, but I am not impressed. Bitfury can do 20MW every 2 months. That's impressive! Remember that they still need a couple of millions on top of NRE costs in order to build their new miners. Also we must not forget that HF defaulted with how many tens of millions in pre-orders? 30M$? 50M$?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Collider on October 09, 2014, 11:28:49 AM
They are building their 20MW facility (it is not finished / operational as far as I know).
They have added at least 1MW of capacity every month since April, and those first added PH were obviously the most profitable ones.
(Customers at 3$/GH have more than broken even twice, so you can see that Cointerra at internal cost of ~0.5$/GH has been shitting gold).

In August they had around 15MW of own / outsorced capacity, populated with miners.
Additionally, they sold cloudhashing contracts with a massive margin (and delivered around 5000 miners until June afaik).

I agree that Bitfury is more impressive, but Bitfury´s internal hardware cost on the 55nm chip is above or equal to 0.6$/GH, while cointerra should have been below 0.5$/GH from the start of their sales.

The claimed efficiency seems entirely within the realms of possibility, especially if you see that current spondoolies/bitmain chips manage around 0.55W/GH on 28nm, and possibly even better with additional optimisation.
That doesn´t mean that they will achieve the claimed efficiency, especially if their track-record is anything to go by.

However, they are currently the only ones that offer next-gen hardware for pre-order, and I am sure they will get some people / bigger investors to spend a lot.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on October 09, 2014, 11:33:13 AM
 

Fancy and complicated answer for a simple question. How low can TerraMiners go with efficiency was my question. From your answer I understand that they can go as low as 0.23W/GH which I don't believe it. Maybe you were referring to the chip efficiency, not the whole system, but even so I still find it hard to believe it. I want to see it!


the 0.23 W/GH is the 16nm 'aire-miner' they're offering for pre-order now.  its not their old 28nm based 'terraminer' !! no one has a 28nm based product that can achieve 0.23w/gh... at this time. and sure, we both know people are working on it and hoping to get there.  and it may happen in 2015...  but 16nm has a lot further it can go.  the 0.23w/gh that cointerra are claiming isn't the lowest power mode it can support.  its the most cost effective one (capital and operating costs are balanced over a 12 month period).  when it needs to be lower power, it could be well draw lower than 0.2 w/gh when running in low power mode (at lower volts).  you can't test that til silicon comes back, as its not easy to simulate at low volts.

i actually have no idea how low a terraminer can go.  suspects its not a long way under 1w/GH but ya never know!  perhaps someone that has one would like to put it on a killawatt  on it and select the lowest power stepping mode and give it a try for us (mine are hosted and i don't have access to them).   there's two models of terraminer.. the 1.6 TH one that shipped for the first few months and the 2.0 TH (that shipped in the last few months).  the latter one is more power efficient, as the extra performance was achieved without more power and just by using more efficient dc/dc converters.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: RoadStress on October 09, 2014, 11:34:13 AM
They are building their 20MW facility (it is not finished / operational as far as I know).
They have added at least 1MW of capacity every month since April, and those first added PH were obviously the most profitable ones.
(Customers at 3$/GH have more than broken even twice, so you can see that Cointerra at internal cost of ~0.5$/GH has been shitting gold).

In August they had around 15MW of own / outsorced capacity, populated with miners.
Additionally, they sold cloudhashing contracts with a massive margin (and delivered around 5000 miners until June afaik).

I agree that Bitfury is more impressive, but Bitfury´s internal hardware cost on the 55nm chip is above or equal to 0.6$/GH, while cointerra should have been below 0.5$/GH from the start of their sales.

The claimed efficiency seems entirely within the realms of possibility, especially if you see that current spondoolies chips manage around 0.55W/GH on 28nm, and possibly even better with additional optimisation.
That doesn´t mean that they will achieve the claimed efficiency, especially with their track-record though.


You didn't understand my reply. I was trying to say that big money doesn't mean that they are safe from default or from fail. I wasn't implying that the are not making money.

Also I wanted to know what's their best efficiency for their already deployed MW. I think aerobatic replied to me about their 16nm miner, but I'm not interested in that. I wanted to know their best efficiency on their deployed miners with the GoldStrike1 ASIC chip.

the 0.23 W/GH is the 16nm 'aire-miner' they're offering for pre-order now.  its not their old 28nm based 'terraminer' !! no one has a 28nm based product that can achieve 0.23w/gh... at this time.

I was asking about the Terraminer when you replied about 0.23W/GH. Everything is clear now.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Collider on October 09, 2014, 11:36:02 AM
You didn't understand my reply. I was trying to say that big money doesn't mean that they are safe from default or from fail. I wasn't implying that the are not making money.

Also I wanted to know what's their best efficiency for their already deployed MW. I think aerobatic replied to me about their 16nm miner, but I'm not interested in that. I wanted to know their best efficiency on their deployed miners with the GoldStrike1 ASIC chip.
Around 1W/GH, maybe 0.8. Any lower than that the voltage won´t allow the chip to work. (assuming the chip desing wasn´t changed)
It also means that you would only achieve around 10TH / rack on the standard customer design, but they either have access to cheap space or they have redesigned the enclosures for higher density.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on October 09, 2014, 11:46:51 AM
I was asking about the Terraminer when you replied about 0.23W/GH. Everything is clear now.


here's some assumptions...

lets assume that they've produced circa 20+ PH of terraminers.  lets say its 50:50 of the older 1.6TH and newer 2.0 TH boxes. 

cointerra's own network is circa 12 PH, according to organofcorti stats... is probably some old and mostly newer terra miners, since their network only started after the last customer pre-orders were delivered.

this needs to be tested by someone that actually has boxes...  but i would guess its in the 0.7-0.85 w/gh range- certainly not going to get as low as the newer generation miners from others that are in the 0.5-0.6 range.   suspect the newer 2.0 TH terraminer has more control over its voltages and could potentially use less power than the earlier model at the lower en of the range as well.

of course, a major factor is where the miners are and how much power costs at that location.   for instance, a power inefficient miner in a cheap power location (e.g. washington, iceland etc) could be more profitable than a more efficient miner in an expensive place (california..?  israel?  china?  take your pick).

in the short term, minimising power cost by moving miners to where they can operate cheaper, and thus, for longer, is the right thing to do... and in the long-term, its to use more power efficient miners, that have the margin to become even more power efficient when the need is there, so that they can be utilised for at least a year without having to change the miner.

-- Jez


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Rabinovitch on October 09, 2014, 04:16:15 PM
DO NOT BUY FROM COINTERRA! you have been warned!
Thanx, I will not. )


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Minor Miner on October 09, 2014, 04:25:56 PM
If they have all this money, and are such a great company, why do they need PREORDER money?
I bought a tesla X and he did not need me to pay for it.   I will pay for it when (and if) he delivers it.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: jimmothy on October 09, 2014, 04:34:23 PM
If they have all this money, and are such a great company, why do they need PREORDER money?
I bought a tesla X and he did not need me to pay for it.   I will pay for it when (and if) he delivers it.

It's really quite obvious if you've ever preordered hardware. They just want more money.

They know that hardware be selling from stock for ~$0.2/gh by time they are finally shipping so they would rather have people pay current rates instead.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Collider on October 09, 2014, 04:59:48 PM
I never said pre-ordering in general or from this company specifically is a good idea.

In fact most of the time you can buy cheaper hardware from in-hand vendors by the time your pre-order should arrive.
More than 4 months is obviously a very long time in Bitcoin land and nobody should lock in money for miners that long.

I was mainly commenting on the technical feasability aswell as giving some background information.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Syke on October 09, 2014, 05:19:15 PM
If they have all this money, and are such a great company, why do they need PREORDER money?
I bought a tesla X and he did not need me to pay for it.   I will pay for it when (and if) he delivers it.

They do preorders so that all risk is on the customer. There's no reason to risk your own money when there are thousands of idiots out there that will risk their money instead.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Coin_Master on October 16, 2014, 09:25:26 AM
Do not fund these people.

Pre-ordering is trusting someone else with your money.

Don't do it.

Totally agree with Josh here.  We have seen enough scams/failed promises to know that pre-ordering can no longer be considered an option.
Avoid pre-orders!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Unacceptable on October 16, 2014, 09:33:05 AM
Do not fund these people.

Pre-ordering is trusting someone else with your money.

Don't do it.


Totally agree with Josh here.  We have seen enough scams/failed promises to know that pre-ordering can no longer be considered an option.
Avoid pre-orders!

https://i.imgur.com/XYdV0Jo.png


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Bicknellski on October 16, 2014, 09:41:26 AM
If they have all this money, and are such a great company, why do they need PREORDER money?
I bought a tesla X and he did not need me to pay for it.   I will pay for it when (and if) he delivers it.

It's really quite obvious if you've ever preordered hardware. They just want more money.

They know that hardware be selling from stock for ~$0.2/gh by time they are finally shipping so they would rather have people pay current rates instead.

Further can you really trust Cointerra given the last miner they put out on the market and the amount of complaints, refund issues and so and so on. I suggest steer clear of them on that alone.

Looks like they completely removed the entire forum today also.

Oh no.. that is a clear red flag there.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: 2112 on October 16, 2014, 12:27:46 PM
Could somebody please fix this meme? The text should be "Pre-order ASIC Prices Are Too Damn High!". Jimmy McMillan is too much of a gentleman to be dropping f-bombs.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: daddyfatsax on October 16, 2014, 01:49:45 PM
https://i.imgur.com/850Xg5X.png

Better?

Edited because I cannot proof-read like an adult.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: -ck on October 16, 2014, 02:02:25 PM
One too many 'are's. Does that make it arse?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: daddyfatsax on October 16, 2014, 08:09:47 PM

Dammit... It makes me an arse.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Unacceptable on October 16, 2014, 11:52:12 PM
All right,he is a decent guy & I wasn't trying to piss anyone off,just trying to get a point across  ::)

How's this  ???

https://i.imgur.com/sLtoQ7u.png


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dogie on October 20, 2014, 10:13:19 PM
This company's rating has been updated in the Manufacturer Trustworthiness thread. (http://goo.gl/fRkevr)

[This message won't be monitored, discuss your concerns in the thread.]


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: graymatter on October 27, 2014, 09:17:23 PM
Entertaining to say the least-

Fact's-

Only devices using 16nm technologies are cell phones, using TINY amounts of voltage and amps, thus, low heat.

Intel's 14nm processor is suffering from massive overheating issues, they are now triyng to work in 3 dimensional space, as the 14nm / 16nm resistors generate so much heat that it melts the wafers.

No 16nm chip produces has had the type of heat running through it like these ASIC's will produce (unlike 20nm, use in processors, and GPU's)


Speculation-

ITS VERY BAD, that no processors, or GPU chips (high heat) have been made with this technology.  This chip will fail considering intel, with 2 years, and 50million dollars invested haven't been able to produce an efficient 14nm processor chip, I doubt these under qualified engineers have a chance in hell at doing anything that will work.  

Do NOT PRE-ORDER, it may take several months to a year before 16nm chips are ready for ASIC production.

Sources - ACTUAL ENGINEER, consulting with engineer friends who work on the 14nm intel chip production plant in Chandler, AZ....

clueless newbie - saying that you spoke to an actual engineer isn't quoting a source.  to do that you need to say exactly who you spoke to.

anyhow... thats ridiculous to say 16nm isn't ideal for bitcoin chips and only useful for mobile chips.  what a ridiculous thing to say.   the reality is that anything thats good for mobile chips, which are low voltage and low power, is exceptionally good for bitcoin mining chips as well since they too need to be low voltage and low power.  in fact, i think you'll find that bitcoin chips run at even lower voltages, on the whole, than mobile phone chips do..!

one thing I'm pretty sure of, is that in 2015, a large amount of bitcoin mining will be done on 16nm chips, and by 2016, probably most of it will be 16nm.  its just so much better than 28nm (and yes, even 20nm) that there's no reason not to use it for everything.

btw, nvidia has already announced they're using 16nm for their next graphics chips.

cointerra may have the first 16nm to be ready for tapeout, but i guarantee within the space of 6 months, a lot more 16nm are coming.  its the obvious next step for the majority of the asic companies that want the lowest possible power and smallest possible silicon area (= more dies per wafer).   sure, some smart companies can eek out a bit more juice out of 28nm and survive for one more generation in 28nm, but ultimately in 2015 they will all be using 16nm,.. cointerra's just the first, thats all.  they might be a quarter or two ahead of the pack, but the whole pack is going there!

(btw, 16nm tsmc and 14nm Samsung/global foundries are pretty much similar in specs, so for our purposes are interchangeable)


Lol you obviously don't understand hardware at all do you?  My point was, only mobile processors / applications are using 16nm technology currently.  Also, you're argument for Nvidia going to 16nm is flawed at best.  First off, they are over a year out, second, they recently switched to Maxwell technology, that allows them to use about 50% less power than older models.

My point is, NO ONE has produced an efficient 14nm or 16nm process (like CPU / GPU processor yet 5volts to 9volt power).  The reason is, the transistors are so close together on the wafer, it causes extensive heat, they literally melt the silicon between the transistors.  This is why Intel's 14nm tech has been in development for so long.  They are trying now to solve it by printing in 3 dimensions (more space between transistors for cooling) buts its going to be another 6 months to a year, and Intel isn't going to share there process for 2 more years.

Obviously you have no understanding or clue what is involved.  You say the ASICS can benefit from low voltage, while that is true, they can't achieve the same type of processing potential running on 2volts the same way they can on 5volts.  Its simply physics and I'm sorry if I'm talking above your head.  Am I saying its impossible, absolutely not, but they technology they are working on is cutting edge.  If you think that butterfly labs had issues with 20nm process, just wait for CoinTerra trying to do this on the 16nm level.

Come revisit this threat in March of next year and will see how spot on the hardware issues are as they miss deadline after deadline.



Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: RoadStress on October 27, 2014, 09:29:34 PM
Lol you obviously don't understand hardware at all do you?  My point was, only mobile processors / applications are using 16nm technology currently.  Also, you're argument for Nvidia going to 16nm is flawed at best.  First off, they are over a year out, second, they recently switched to Maxwell technology, that allows them to use about 50% less power than older models.

My point is, NO ONE has produced an efficient 14nm or 16nm process (like CPU / GPU processor yet 5volts to 9volt power).  The reason is, the transistors are so close together on the wafer, it causes extensive heat, they literally melt the silicon between the transistors.  This is why Intel's 14nm tech has been in development for so long.  They are trying now to solve it by printing in 3 dimensions (more space between transistors for cooling) buts its going to be another 6 months to a year, and Intel isn't going to share there process for 2 more years.

Obviously you have no understanding or clue what is involved.  You say the ASICS can benefit from low voltage, while that is true, they can't achieve the same type of processing potential running on 2volts the same way they can on 5volts.  Its simply physics and I'm sorry if I'm talking above your head.  Am I saying its impossible, absolutely not, but they technology they are working on is cutting edge.  If you think that butterfly labs had issues with 20nm process, just wait for CoinTerra trying to do this on the 16nm level.

Come revisit this threat in March of next year and will see how spot on the hardware issues are as they miss deadline after deadline.

In his defense I can say that he clearly understands hardware since he is an investor in Cointerra. From you post I can see that YOU don't understand hardware. Bitcoin mining can't be compared to CPU or GPU. It's just a simple thing that can be paralleled very easy on the chip and it doesn't operate at such volts that you mentioned. You are comparing apples to oranges. And this is coming just from me who learned all this stuff about chips from wikipedia and this forum. We will see 16nm and 14nm chips in 2015! Not later.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Dexter770221 on October 28, 2014, 01:03:24 PM
.....
We will see 16nm and 14nm chips in 2015! Not later.

16nm propably. 14nm propably not. Only Intel and Samsung are ready with 14nm. But they wil not produce for small asic company (extremly high costs). TSMC is ready with 16nm but they are so busy with 20nm Apple CPUs that they will start mass production on 16nm in Q2'15.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dlowings on October 28, 2014, 05:11:06 PM
.....
We will see 16nm and 14nm chips in 2015! Not later.

16nm propably. 14nm propably not. Only Intel and Samsung are ready with 14nm. But they wil not produce for small asic company (extremly high costs). TSMC is ready with 16nm but they are so busy with 20nm Apple CPUs that they will start mass production on 16nm in Q2'15.

if that were the case, hobby miner might not see anything real until 2016 ?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: RoadStress on October 28, 2014, 05:21:33 PM
.....
We will see 16nm and 14nm chips in 2015! Not later.

16nm propably. 14nm propably not. Only Intel and Samsung are ready with 14nm. But they wil not produce for small asic company (extremly high costs). TSMC is ready with 16nm but they are so busy with 20nm Apple CPUs that they will start mass production on 16nm in Q2'15.

Bitcoin miners don't qualify for mass production so having a couple of wafers available for this wouldn't surprise me. While right now the mining ecosystem is a bit boring I think we have some interesting times ahead.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: jimmothy on October 28, 2014, 06:34:20 PM
.....
We will see 16nm and 14nm chips in 2015! Not later.

16nm propably. 14nm propably not. Only Intel and Samsung are ready with 14nm. But they wil not produce for small asic company (extremly high costs). TSMC is ready with 16nm but they are so busy with 20nm Apple CPUs that they will start mass production on 16nm in Q2'15.

Looks like you're right: http://www.kitguru.net/channel/generaltech/anton-shilov/tsmc-slightly-postpones-mass-production-of-16nm-chips-to-q2-2015/

Funny how Cointerra is still advertising Q1 shipment..

I hope their customers don't mind the 6+ month delay.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: johny08 on November 06, 2014, 07:12:47 AM
Yeah. this forum is not known for big thinker.

Anyway. I will try. Dont make a pre-order. There were maybe one or two cases of pre-orders for mining hardware, which was profitable. The mining forum is full of stories, with companies didnt or delivered not to promised date.

STAY AWAY OF FUNDING PRE SALE MINING OPERATIONS. JUST THINK, ANY INVESTOR WOULD GIVE THEM ENOUGH MONEY IF IT WOULD BE A GOOD DEAL, BUT SO THEY NEED YOU TO FINANCE THEIR OPERATION.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: TerraBatic on November 18, 2014, 01:53:31 AM
Jez or aerobatic, the rumors in the industry are that CoinTerra didn't TapeOut their 16nm chip yet because they don't have the $. Why does CoinTerra still collect preorders on a product they don't intend to deliver? Do you feel it's ethical? How do you feel as an investor and board member?
Rumors are that CoinTerra is approaching anyone in the industry for funding. Do you have any comments on that? How close is CoinTerra for bankruptcy?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on November 25, 2014, 01:34:45 AM
Jez or aerobatic, the rumors in the industry are that CoinTerra didn't TapeOut their 16nm chip yet because they don't have the $. Why does CoinTerra still collect preorders on a product they don't intend to deliver? Do you feel it's ethical? How do you feel as an investor and board member?
Rumors are that CoinTerra is approaching anyone in the industry for funding. Do you have any comments on that? How close is CoinTerra for bankruptcy?

TerraBatic... nice name, but you're posting from a newbie account.  by which more common name are you known?

btw.. am an investor not board member.

a 16nm chip is an expensive asic to produce - funds required for tapeout and production are significant and are much higher than for other previous types of asic (read: north of $10m) so to raise that amount they will be considering all the common financing techniques like pre-orders, partnerships and investors.  its also sensible that they talk to other mining companies to see who wants to join forces and share the burden.

imho, its pretty obvious there are way too many unique asics in the bitcoin mining business and these companies are wasting too much cash reinventing the same things - and in an ideal scenario there should be more effort amongst them to share technology and the huge costs of creating new silicon - both to reduce the wasted nre's, and also to bring better economies of scale.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Bakal on November 25, 2014, 01:50:57 AM
CONterra is much a better name.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dropt on November 25, 2014, 01:55:35 AM
a 16nm chip is an expensive asic to produce - funds required for tapeout and production are significant and are much higher than for other previous types of asic (read: north of $10m) so to raise that amount they will be considering all the common financing techniques like pre-orders, partnerships and investors. 

Have they not generated sufficient revenue from their private farm?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Sine(X) on November 25, 2014, 04:54:01 AM
a 16nm chip is an expensive asic to produce - funds required for tapeout and production are significant and are much higher than for other previous types of asic (read: north of $10m) so to raise that amount they will be considering all the common financing techniques like pre-orders, partnerships and investors. 

Have they not generated sufficient revenue from their private farm?

They didn't grow about 3 month (http://organofcorti.blogspot.ru/), so the answer is likely "No". Otherwise they would increase power, but if they have no money to do it, what is probability they will find 10m$ for 16nm chip? Asymptotically approaches zero..


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on November 25, 2014, 10:27:00 AM
a 16nm chip is an expensive asic to produce - funds required for tapeout and production are significant and are much higher than for other previous types of asic (read: north of $10m) so to raise that amount they will be considering all the common financing techniques like pre-orders, partnerships and investors. 

Have they not generated sufficient revenue from their private farm?

They didn't grow about 3 month (http://organofcorti.blogspot.ru/), so the answer is likely "No". Otherwise they would increase power, but if they have no money to do it, what is probability they will find 10m$ for 16nm chip? Asymptotically approaches zero..

mining operations provide bitcoin revenue, but the low price of btc means exposure to exchange rate fluctuations hurts miners more than most (hosting/electricity costs in dollars, revenue in bitcoins) and also, most other miners that operate private mines also raise cash from investors/partnerships (kncminer, bitfury, asicminer, 21e6 et al)



Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Sine(X) on November 25, 2014, 11:39:10 AM
a 16nm chip is an expensive asic to produce - funds required for tapeout and production are significant and are much higher than for other previous types of asic (read: north of $10m) so to raise that amount they will be considering all the common financing techniques like pre-orders, partnerships and investors. 

Have they not generated sufficient revenue from their private farm?

They didn't grow about 3 month (http://organofcorti.blogspot.ru/), so the answer is likely "No". Otherwise they would increase power, but if they have no money to do it, what is probability they will find 10m$ for 16nm chip? Asymptotically approaches zero..

mining operations provide bitcoin revenue, but the low price of btc means exposure to exchange rate fluctuations hurts miners more than most (hosting/electricity costs in dollars, revenue in bitcoins) and also, most other miners that operate private mines also raise cash from investors/partnerships (kncminer, bitfury, asicminer, 21e6 et al)



Yes, investors are very important, that's why reputation is a main factor for mining business today.. One look at Dogie's rating will enough for investor won't give even a dollar to Cointerra.
What about 21e6? They are in the Unknown group by Organofcorti statistics, aren't they?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on November 25, 2014, 01:03:31 PM

Yes, investors are very important, that's why reputation is a main factor for mining business today.. One look at Dogie's rating will enough for investor won't give even a dollar to Cointerra.
What about 21e6? They are in the Unknown group by Organofcorti statistics, aren't they?

i dont think anyone in the real world takes dogie's (biassed and inaccurate) ratings too seriously.  there's few ratings there that can be substantiated given the facts and his ratings are very openly based on emotion and anecdote rather than actual data.  ive tried to work with him on improving the accuracy but reality doesnt seem too important and he's not able to take input nor criticism from anyone else (certainly not me).  im sure its also a coincidence that several of the companies that paid him (in cash or kind) to write a guide for them may have scored better in his ratings than they deserve.

as for 21e6, rumours are theyve raised a significant amount of cash from silicon valley investors...  and are now working on their third chip... (apparently the other two werent especially competitive).  im sure they're mining so they must be in the unknown category, as you say.



Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: testerx on November 25, 2014, 03:44:01 PM
Given how our orders over the last year went with Cointerra and the fact that 2 out of 4 delivered Terraminers went kaput I will be sitting this one out.  They're not the worst company I've ordered from (ahem BFL) but when there are reliable companies that'll ship out hardware within a couple of days that seem to have much more reliable hardware I don't see why anybody would buy from Cointerra this time around.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: bitndx on November 25, 2014, 09:55:20 PM
If it is known that Cointerra's supplier is not going to deliver 16nm to them until Q2 2015; then the CT website target delivery date needs to shift from Q1 as well. Especially when one signs refunds and recourse away in the sale terms fine print.

Otherwise that sales method sounds deceptive to me.

 

   


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dogie on November 26, 2014, 08:54:55 AM

Yes, investors are very important, that's why reputation is a main factor for mining business today.. One look at Dogie's rating will enough for investor won't give even a dollar to Cointerra.
What about 21e6? They are in the Unknown group by Organofcorti statistics, aren't they?

i dont think anyone in the real world takes dogie's (biassed and inaccurate) ratings too seriously.  there's few ratings there that can be substantiated given the facts and his ratings are very openly based on emotion and anecdote rather than actual data.  ive tried to work with him on improving the accuracy but reality doesnt seem too important and he's not able to take input nor criticism from anyone else (certainly not me).  im sure its also a coincidence that several of the companies that paid him (in cash or kind) to write a guide for them may have scored better in his ratings than they deserve.

as for 21e6, rumours are theyve raised a significant amount of cash from silicon valley investors...  and are now working on their third chip... (apparently the other two werent especially competitive).  im sure they're mining so they must be in the unknown category, as you say.

Actually it was you who wanted me to downvote companies across the board for personal transactions you'd had with them, not me. I set up a numerical criteria system so I don't have control over the ratings.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on November 26, 2014, 09:13:09 AM

Yes, investors are very important, that's why reputation is a main factor for mining business today.. One look at Dogie's rating will enough for investor won't give even a dollar to Cointerra.
What about 21e6? They are in the Unknown group by Organofcorti statistics, aren't they?

i dont think anyone in the real world takes dogie's (biassed and inaccurate) ratings too seriously.  there's few ratings there that can be substantiated given the facts and his ratings are very openly based on emotion and anecdote rather than actual data.  ive tried to work with him on improving the accuracy but reality doesnt seem too important and he's not able to take input nor criticism from anyone else (certainly not me).  im sure its also a coincidence that several of the companies that paid him (in cash or kind) to write a guide for them may have scored better in his ratings than they deserve.

as for 21e6, rumours are theyve raised a significant amount of cash from silicon valley investors...  and are now working on their third chip... (apparently the other two werent especially competitive).  im sure they're mining so they must be in the unknown category, as you say.

Actually it was you who wanted me to downvote companies across the board for personal transactions you'd had with them, not me. I set up a numerical criteria system so I don't have control over the ratings.

thats incorrect.

i wrote to you that you were fictionally applying your numeric assessments in an incorrect way.  you had come up with a rating system and then making up the numbers.

you pretend you've got a numeric rating system that can't be cheated, yet many of the numbers that you put into the boxes are your personal and emotional decision and bear no basis in fact.

and you don't take input nor criticism from anyone else.  your rating system is Yours, and yours to make up the numbers and you alone.

i was just trying to inject some reality into it.

for instance, you STILL to this day, maintain that bitfury has 'ethics score of F =  8 points' because they have a small mine (really!!!!????).   Had you not been biassed (or is it just blind?) the real score would've been 'FF, because they have the largest private mine in existence, dwarfing everyone else's... and a score of FF would've scored them -4 instead of 8 according to your own ratings... but no, youre not interested in facts or reality.  you just make up the scores and numbers as you go along and then pretend that because they're just numbers they can't possibly be cheated.  But you're the cheat.  You've come up with the ratings to put them in order, and then you've manipulated the numbers to have the ratings come out how you want.  its plain for all to see.  it doesn't pass any scrutiny at all.

By contrast, KnCMiner, you have scored as ethics F O , which is a huge private mine (-4 points).

Does it even matter to you that KnCMiner's mine is significantly smaller than BitFury's yet your scoring system has it the other way around?

This is just pure bias and emotion -  ignoring the facts.  its a terrible ratings system, Dogie, because its only You and there's no objectivity in it at all.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dogie on November 26, 2014, 10:37:12 AM
I'll pick out the bits which actually have content in to respond. I'd prefer we did this in one of my threads in the future as its OT here, but I have to refute your claims.


for instance, you STILL to this day, maintain that bitfury has 'ethics score of F =  8 points' because they have a small mine (really!!!!????).   Had you not been biassed (or is it just blind?) the real score would've been 'FF, because they have the largest private mine in existence, dwarfing everyone else's... and a score of FF would've scored them -4 instead of 8 according to your own ratings
FF was removed from everyone, its no longer used. KNCMiner had the original FF because they specifically said they wouldn't mine against customers in a large fashion, then absolutely demolished that promise.


manipulated the numbers to have the ratings come out how you want
Manipulated the numbers positively and negatively against two companies I have no relation with - hmmm. And those 2 point 'manipulations' on a 100 point system, damn I'm a bad boy today.
http://litbloc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/guilty_dog_compilation_t.jpg


By contrast, KnCMiner, you have scored as ethics F O , which is a huge private mine (-4 points). Does it even matter to you that KnCMiner's mine is significantly smaller than BitFury's yet your scoring system has it the other way around?
No, its not. F = Operates own mining farm = -2 and O = Other generic unethical behaviour = -5. Nothing about size of farms here.


This is just pure bias and emotion -  ignoring the facts.  its a terrible ratings system, Dogie, because its only You and there's no objectivity in it at all.
The evidence you've provided is irrefutable, you got me. But in all seriousness, you've said nothing that suggests I've manipulated the ratings or I have any personal or emotional attachment to the two companies you've stated. On the other foot, your post history suggests you are extremely supportive of Cointerra, and are annoyed that they have a low (rightful) rating.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on November 26, 2014, 10:43:58 AM
I'll pick out the bits which actually have content in to respond. I'd prefer we did this in one of my threads in the future as its OT here, but I have to refute your claims.


for instance, you STILL to this day, maintain that bitfury has 'ethics score of F =  8 points' because they have a small mine (really!!!!????).   Had you not been biassed (or is it just blind?) the real score would've been 'FF, because they have the largest private mine in existence, dwarfing everyone else's... and a score of FF would've scored them -4 instead of 8 according to your own ratings
FF was removed from everyone, its no longer used. KNCMiner had the original FF because they specifically said they wouldn't mine against customers in a large fashion, then absolutely demolished that promise.


manipulated the numbers to have the ratings come out how you want
Manipulated the numbers positively and negatively against two companies I have no relation with - hmmm. And those 2 point 'manipulations' on a 100 point system, damn I'm a bad boy today.
http://litbloc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/guilty_dog_compilation_t.jpg


By contrast, KnCMiner, you have scored as ethics F O , which is a huge private mine (-4 points). Does it even matter to you that KnCMiner's mine is significantly smaller than BitFury's yet your scoring system has it the other way around?
No, its not. F = Operates own mining farm = -2 and O = Other generic unethical behaviour = -5. Nothing about size of farms here.


This is just pure bias and emotion -  ignoring the facts.  its a terrible ratings system, Dogie, because its only You and there's no objectivity in it at all.
The evidence you've provided is irrefutable, you got me. But in all seriousness, you've said nothing that suggests I've manipulated the ratings or I have any personal or emotional attachment to the two companies you've stated. On the other foot, your post history suggests you are extremely supportive of Cointerra, and are annoyed that they have a low (rightful) rating.


for ease of demonstration i gave just one example of a glaring error in your ratings system.  There are many.   i could go through every line and show that most of the numbers are fabricated to suit your choice of which companies go where.



Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dogie on November 26, 2014, 10:46:03 AM
for ease of demonstration i gave just one example of a glaring error in your ratings system.  There are many.   i could go through every line and show that most of the numbers are fabricated to suit your choice of which companies go where.

An 'example' which turned out to be you not reading the criteria and blaming that on me, nice.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on November 26, 2014, 10:52:54 AM
for ease of demonstration i gave just one example of a glaring error in your ratings system.  There are many.   i could go through every line and show that most of the numbers are fabricated to suit your choice of which companies go where.

An 'example' which turned out to be you not reading the criteria and blaming that on me, nice.

no, I've proven one example where your exact criteria is very explicit and where you've deliberately chosen the wrong numbers to make one company score higher than it should and another score lower than it should.

you've already admitted 'i got you' and that i was right, but will you fix it in your chart?  of course not.  because you never let the facts get in the way of your scores being absolutely your decision.

in that particiular example, bitfury would've scored -4 instead of 8.  thats a 12 point difference, taking their score from 92 to 80.  that would take them from position number 1 in the chart to position number, er, 8?    you see, it makes a huge difference to your chart.   its not a minor error of a bad doggie who should wag a finger.  its a MAJOR change in position of the top rated company in your list, simply because you've arbitrarily doled out the numbers in the way you see fit rather than relying on the facts.

as i said, you can go through every single line in your ratings system and find HUGE errors that amount to deliberate manipulation of the figures.  the entire ratings system is YOUR fabrication.




Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dogie on November 26, 2014, 12:36:59 PM
for ease of demonstration i gave just one example of a glaring error in your ratings system.  There are many.   i could go through every line and show that most of the numbers are fabricated to suit your choice of which companies go where.

An 'example' which turned out to be you not reading the criteria and blaming that on me, nice.

no, I've proven one example where your exact criteria is very explicit and where you've deliberately chosen the wrong numbers to make one company score higher than it should and another score lower than it should.

you've already admitted 'i got you' and that i was right, but will you fix it in your chart?  of course not.  because you never let the facts get in the way of your scores being absolutely your decision.

in that particiular example, bitfury would've scored -4 instead of 8.  thats a 12 point difference, taking their score from 92 to 80.  that would take them from position number 1 in the chart to position number, er, 8?    you see, it makes a huge difference to your chart.   its not a minor error of a bad doggie who should wag a finger.  its a MAJOR change in position of the top rated company in your list, simply because you've arbitrarily doled out the numbers in the way you see fit rather than relying on the facts.

as i said, you can go through every single line in your ratings system and find HUGE errors that amount to deliberate manipulation of the figures.  the entire ratings system is YOUR fabrication.

Confirmed, you can't read.

1) As I've said twice already now, there is no FF ratings any more.
2) No, you didn't 'get me', I was mocking you. Everything you said was absolutely wrong - as you'd see if you actually bothered to read the rating criteria.
3) Oh dear, how would a company score -4 on a scale of 1 to 10?
4) Not only are you making mistakes, but then you're repeating them again and again and again as if you know what you're talking about.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: brontosaurus on November 26, 2014, 08:47:24 PM
Gentlemen,

Much though I'm sure the forum readers are enjoying seeing two members have a go at one another, your disagreement certainly confirms what most technical professional know about any kind of product evaluation - it should be carried out by properly qualified, paid third parties who have no bias in their measurement criteria and can maintain objectivity.

Unfortunately the world doesn't always work that way, but I for one have always found it rather unsettling that mining rig manufacturers find it necessary to submit products to forum member(s) for evaluation - and hopefully endorsement. It's unprofessional and exemplifies the amateur attitude  of most of the rig companies. There are plenty of companies they could go to and pay to get a proper engineering evaluation done, and the results might be surprising as there would be no biases.

Look at the car market - you get dyed in the wool journalists who will never criticise their favourite manufacturer, even if they make a real dog. On UK TV we have a program called Top Gear hosted by a obnoxious oaf called Jeremy Clarkson who will never, ever admit that anyone can make a better sportscar than Ferrari, despite clear evidence to the contrary. They (Ferrari ) treat him like royalty, and he repays them in spades.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, the bias shown to Cointerra in the forums, admittedly mostly due to their previously appalling customer service, means that probably they'll never again get a truly objective view taken of their business by any forum member.

Objectivity goes out the window in both these cases, and that's why product evaluations and comparisons should be done by independents like the UK's Which? organisation or JD Power, leaving technical testing to properly qualified, independent experts.

Aerobatic has never tried to hide his investment in Cointerra and probably feels that they have been unfairly criticised. He's a very articulate and clearly thoughtful person who believes the in the company and was willing to put his hand in his pocket as a result. I personally enjoy reading his input to the forums and if he's complaining about something it's usually for good reasons.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on November 26, 2014, 09:13:54 PM


Confirmed, you can't read.

1) As I've said twice already now, there is no FF ratings any more.
2) No, you didn't 'get me', I was mocking you. Everything you said was absolutely wrong - as you'd see if you actually bothered to read the rating criteria.
3) Oh dear, how would a company score -4 on a scale of 1 to 10?
4) Not only are you making mistakes, but then you're repeating them again and again and again as if you know what you're talking about.

1)  I read it on your guide page.  its listed as your criteria under the 'Ethics' section and clearly has F for large mine and FF for very large mine.  its still there right now.   I am only reading what you wrote.  If you decide you don't want to apply your own criteria to the ratings, well, that just underscores what I've been accusing you of - that you come up with the scores that You Want.  and you don't let the facts get in the way.   Your scores are arbitrary at best, and biassed at worst.

2.  Great, go ahead and mock me.   Your defensiveness and mocking anyone you disagree with shows you can't take criticism.  No surprise, we already know you can't.  I'm not the only one that believes you decide what you want in your guide.  There are competing guides setup to try and bring additional perspectives to the issue (Bick etc).

3.  your scoring system isn't exactly easy to understand. i may have read that one wrong and i admit it.  I should've added -4 to 10, and not used -4 absolutely.  But the principle I'm highlighting remains the same.  that you decide what the score is yourself, independent of your published criteria.  You choose to ignore the criteria whenever it suits you and add an element of your own interpretation to it.  This is far from scientific.  It is, and always has been mostly your opinions, dressed up as a numeric score.

4.  Yes, you ignored them months ago when i first highlighted them to you - privately in an email - and you said you wouldn't deal with it til i published it on the forum.   Then i did that, and you still did nothing, despite me bringing several factual errors to light.   You cannot admit that you've made some mistakes in your charts.   You're incapable of taking criticism or input from anyone else.

and in the example i gave, I'm not accusing you of bias.   But in general i am.  You take payment, either in cash or in kind from bitcoin mining hardware companies.  And you can't claim it doesn't influence you.  If you wanted to be impartial you should not take inducements nor incentives from bitcoin mining companies.    Its wrong !

clearly, we're never going to agree.

-- Jez

ps.  thanks bronto for the kind note




Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Bicknellski on November 28, 2014, 09:46:55 AM


Objectivity goes out the window in both these cases, and that's why product evaluations and comparisons should be done by independents like the UK's Which? organisation or JD Power, leaving technical testing to properly qualified, independent experts.



Here, here.

And that is clearly not going to happen in bitcointalk or with asic fabricators given the low volume of product produced.

The only alternative is for people to read the forums and find consumer feedback and assess what is likely to be the best company to deal with. Then again who knows if the next miner out off the production line is a dog or not.

Also when people avoid break even numbers and questions about cost vs return you might want to avoid listening to those people. Given the nature of mining now everything is "lottery-machine" unless you are building it yourself and have the money to build larger farms. If you are taking money to promote a fabricator then the community should rightly look at your commentary with the knowledge your "ratings" are bias based on that fact alone. Be safe out there people.

Don't buy from anyone that has burned the community in the past if you can purchase today from a reputable fabricator. Know that your investment in a machine today, any machine, in small quantities is not going to return you BTC for BTC. If you are buying in $ just buy BTC it is easier and more likely a better long term investment.

CAVEAT EMPTOR!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Bicknellski on November 28, 2014, 09:56:27 AM
Didn't Cointerra miss their specifications on their first ASIC? The 28nm TerraMiner IV was sold as a pre-order for a 2TH/s unit... didn't the actual product perform at 1.6 TH/s?

I heard there was quite a high percentage of failures too: units that wouldn't hash.

Now would be a good time for some TerraMiner IV customers to chime in with their experiences.

Given their terrible track record on a mature process like 28nm, the chances look pretty grim that they will deliver 16nm on spec and on deadline. People pre-ordering this product should be prepared for endless delays and excuses for why the miners are not available yet. Wanting a refund once the product is 3 to 6 months late? Sorry, no refunds. Check out the sales terms:
http://cointerra.com/aireminer-terms/

Quote
2.         PURCHASES ARE FINAL:

ALL PURCHASES ARE FINAL, NON-CANCELABLE AND NON-REFUNDABLE. NO CANCELLATION OR RESCHEDULING OF ORDERS BY YOU WILL BE ACCEPTED.


FTC rules?


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Sine(X) on November 28, 2014, 05:34:31 PM
Of course in the ideal world Dogie should be 100% independent from companies money. But we are living in real word where everybody need money. We don't have any proof that Dogie's rating became dependent. We just may believe or not.
Nobody knows who paid Dogie, I read just (from Dogie) about Avalon and Bitmain. After his announced both of these companies lost rating's points. It's fact and we should consider it.

Regarding ethics - I think lie and cheat are much much much more seriously than self mining. If we will count the number of negative comments per user in KNC and Cointerra threads, we'll not have any questions about ratings of these companies.
Why owners of Mercedes factory can't use Mercedes as a car?

So I can't be sure, but I hope and believe that Dogie's rating independent.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: pak13 on November 28, 2014, 05:41:36 PM
I'll pick out the bits which actually have content in to respond. I'd prefer we did this in one of my threads in the future as its OT here, but I have to refute your claims.


for instance, you STILL to this day, maintain that bitfury has 'ethics score of F =  8 points' because they have a small mine (really!!!!????).   Had you not been biassed (or is it just blind?) the real score would've been 'FF, because they have the largest private mine in existence, dwarfing everyone else's... and a score of FF would've scored them -4 instead of 8 according to your own ratings
FF was removed from everyone, its no longer used. KNCMiner had the original FF because they specifically said they wouldn't mine against customers in a large fashion, then absolutely demolished that promise.


manipulated the numbers to have the ratings come out how you want
Manipulated the numbers positively and negatively against two companies I have no relation with - hmmm. And those 2 point 'manipulations' on a 100 point system, damn I'm a bad boy today.
http://litbloc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/guilty_dog_compilation_t.jpg


By contrast, KnCMiner, you have scored as ethics F O , which is a huge private mine (-4 points). Does it even matter to you that KnCMiner's mine is significantly smaller than BitFury's yet your scoring system has it the other way around?


This is just pure bias and emotion -  ignoring the facts.  its a terrible ratings system, Dogie, because its only You and there's no objectivity in it at all.
The evidence you've provided is irrefutable, you got me. But in all seriousness, you've said nothing that suggests I've manipulated the ratings or I have any personal or emotional attachment to the two companies you've stated. On the other foot, your post history suggests you are extremely supportive of Cointerra, and are annoyed that they have a low (rightful) rating.

Dogie you can't run a serious rating system when you are connected to companies in said list. Grow up!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: pak13 on November 28, 2014, 05:44:09 PM
Of course in the ideal world Dogie should be 100% independent from companies money. But we are living in real word where everybody need money. We don't have any proof that Dogie's rating became dependent. We just may believe or not.
Nobody knows who paid Dogie, I read just (from Dogie) about Avalon and Bitmain. After his announced both of these companies lost rating's points. It's fact and we should consider it.

Regarding ethics - I think lie and cheat are much much much more seriously than self mining. If we will count the number of negative comments per user in KNC and Cointerra threads, we'll not have any questions about ratings of these companies.
Why owners of Mercedes factory can't use Mercedes as a car?

So I can't be sure, but I hope and believe that Dogie's rating independent.

It can't be independent when Dogie is paid by companies on his list. Truly independent is off list. Worse still, he has links that he earns commission from. So the more he publishes, the more he gets paid. Click bait.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Minor Miner on November 28, 2014, 10:32:44 PM
Of course in the ideal world Dogie should be 100% independent from companies money. But we are living in real word where everybody need money. We don't have any proof that Dogie's rating became dependent. We just may believe or not.
Nobody knows who paid Dogie, I read just (from Dogie) about Avalon and Bitmain. After his announced both of these companies lost rating's points. It's fact and we should consider it.

Regarding ethics - I think lie and cheat are much much much more seriously than self mining. If we will count the number of negative comments per user in KNC and Cointerra threads, we'll not have any questions about ratings of these companies.
Why owners of Mercedes factory can't use Mercedes as a car?

So I can't be sure, but I hope and believe that Dogie's rating independent.

It can't be independent when Dogie is paid by companies on his list. Truly independent is off list. Worse still, he has links that he earns commission from. So the more he publishes, the more he gets paid. Click bait.

It is kind of moot if the price does not rise because surely no one is buying miners right now.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Fatman3001 on December 28, 2014, 10:56:30 AM
How alive is this company? It just says "out of stock" on the pre-order of Aire. Which is odd. Now, I wasn't planning on a pre-order but if they were shipping I might hold out for a proper order (if their stuff works this time) so any information on their progress would be welcome.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Unacceptable on December 28, 2014, 11:20:39 AM
How alive is this company? It just says "out of stock" on the pre-order of Aire. Which is odd. Now, I wasn't planning on a pre-order but if they were shipping I might hold out for a proper order (if their stuff works this time) so any information on their progress would be welcome.

Don't hold your breath,they are scammers.Go with Spoondolies or Bitmain  ;)


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Fatman3001 on December 28, 2014, 11:28:18 AM
Gentlemen,
...
Look at the car market - you get dyed in the wool journalists who will never criticise their favourite manufacturer, even if they make a real dog. On UK TV we have a program called Top Gear hosted by a obnoxious oaf called Jeremy Clarkson who will never, ever admit that anyone can make a better sportscar than Ferrari, despite clear evidence to the contrary. They (Ferrari ) treat him like royalty, and he repays them in spades.
...

Really OT but I can't help myself. If you want "proper" car reviews you can check carbuyer.co.uk or Autocar.

Top Gear is an entertainment program with three presenters/goofballs who, as most car lovers do, have strong emotional ties to certain brands or cars. Jeremy likes Ferrari (although he has admitted certain AMs and Porsches and others to be better than their Ferrari counterparts on several occasions), Richard (like I) likes the 911 and sees no reason why there should be any other Porsche (or any other car for that matter). The third likes tiny crap cars and old luxury barges and complains about stuff that can't be communicated with language.  I can't understand why people get so annoyed by these guys. Yes, Jeremy is an oaf but I have lots of friends who are oafs. And if you don't, you should get some. It's not like you elected him President of the US and let him start a war in Iraq (that would be stupid).

Disclaimer: Jeremy Clarkson knows nothing about politics, the climate, racial relations or gender equality. But he looks like a teapot when he's filling petrol and that's funny.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Fatman3001 on December 28, 2014, 11:38:26 AM
How alive is this company? It just says "out of stock" on the pre-order of Aire. Which is odd. Now, I wasn't planning on a pre-order but if they were shipping I might hold out for a proper order (if their stuff works this time) so any information on their progress would be welcome.

Don't hold your breath,they are scammers.Go with Spoondolies or Bitmain  ;)

I am. But they don't have a release date for their 14/16nm products.

I think the foundries are starting to realize that bitcoin mining HW manufacturers are the perfect customers for their early batches with new manufacturing processes. They HAVE TO have the newest tech, they don't mind high unit costs and they don't mind low yields. AMD and ARM normally wants more mature processes. So I thought maybe Cointerra had struck a deal to get some fresh tech.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: kingbruce on December 28, 2014, 12:06:53 PM
I once pre ordered a miner in the early days of mining it took six months by the time I got it I was never going to break even. Best bet is to invest in someone who has mining power to start your first earning. Depending on how much you are ready to make now or later.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Gamla on December 28, 2014, 12:39:37 PM
 >:( FUCK NO! >:(


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: ImI on December 29, 2014, 01:02:09 PM

bankrupt??

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2q958l/i_just_received_word_that_cointerra_is_closing/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2q958l/i_just_received_word_that_cointerra_is_closing/)


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: graymatter on January 07, 2015, 05:04:40 AM
To all you doubters out there.  16nm is quarter or possible quarter 3 (oh and this doesn't include building the rest of the miner...) and it looks like Cointerra just defaulted on there notes.  I'm glad everyone pre-ordered, it worked out great for everyone didn't it?

Stick to companies you can trust, not ones that screw you over and aren't even profitable with there own farms.  Coin tera couldn't even produce a sub 1w / ghash unit with 28nm tech while spoondoolies and bitmain had about .65-.7watt per ghash, and people trusted them to make a 16nm super efficient unit.

I'm happy running a 1mw facility at sub $80 per KW costs with .65w/gh, enjoy cointerra fan boys....  Glad to see another shady mining company bite the dust.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: opieum2 on January 07, 2015, 05:11:38 AM
To all you doubters out there.  16nm is quarter or possible quarter 3 (oh and this doesn't include building the rest of the miner...) and it looks like Cointerra just defaulted on there notes.  I'm glad everyone pre-ordered, it worked out great for everyone didn't it?

Stick to companies you can trust, not ones that screw you over and aren't even profitable with there own farms.  Coin tera couldn't even produce a sub 1w / ghash unit with 28nm tech while spoondoolies and bitmain had about .65-.7watt per ghash, and people trusted them to make a 16nm super efficient unit.

I'm happy running a 1mw facility at sub $80 per KW costs with .65w/gh, enjoy cointerra fan boys....  Glad to see another shady mining company bite the dust.

+1 to this. Though it does make me a little sad that there are no reputable American companies to buy from.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Fatman3001 on January 07, 2015, 11:41:53 AM
I found this:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rkevr/cointerra_is_in_default/

It's weird that they couldn't make money with cloud mining, but their timeline for the Aire was extremely optimistic.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: dogie on January 07, 2015, 08:44:50 PM
I found this:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rkevr/cointerra_is_in_default/

It's weird that they couldn't make money with cloud mining, but their timeline for the Aire was extremely optimistic.

A default does not comment on a company's profitability directly as its a hallmark of a company's liquidity. They could be making $10M a year but it would be meaningless if they can't pay their short term liabilities at the right time.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Fatman3001 on January 09, 2015, 01:18:08 AM
I found this:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rkevr/cointerra_is_in_default/

It's weird that they couldn't make money with cloud mining, but their timeline for the Aire was extremely optimistic.

A default does not comment on a company's profitability directly as its a hallmark of a company's liquidity. They could be making $10M a year but it would be meaningless if they can't pay their short term liabilities at the right time.

If you make 10m a year there is usually a way out of this sort of thing.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: RoadStress on January 13, 2015, 02:07:27 AM
http://www.coindesk.com/cointerra-lawsuit-5-4-million-damages/

So at this point I am sure that there will be no TO considering the lawsuit.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: graymatter on January 13, 2015, 04:17:54 AM
http://www.coindesk.com/cointerra-lawsuit-5-4-million-damages/

So at this point I am sure that there will be no TO considering the lawsuit.

dang it you beat me to it!  I was just about to post this!  lolz, where's aerobatic now? Hiding in a closet after realizing how TERRIBLE of an investment coin terra was....

http://www.coindesk.com/cointerra-lawsuit-5-4-million-damages/

LOLZ!


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on January 13, 2015, 08:37:03 AM
http://www.coindesk.com/cointerra-lawsuit-5-4-million-damages/

So at this point I am sure that there will be no TO considering the lawsuit.

dang it you beat me to it!  I was just about to post this!  lolz, where's aerobatic now? Hiding in a closet after realizing how TERRIBLE of an investment coin terra was....

http://www.coindesk.com/cointerra-lawsuit-5-4-million-damages/

LOLZ!

the misfortune of others is so funny, graymatter.  hilarious


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: padrino on January 13, 2015, 01:47:11 PM
I found this:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rkevr/cointerra_is_in_default/

It's weird that they couldn't make money with cloud mining, but their timeline for the Aire was extremely optimistic.

A default does not comment on a company's profitability directly as its a hallmark of a company's liquidity. They could be making $10M a year but it would be meaningless if they can't pay their short term liabilities at the right time.

Great point, and I will say the primary hosting providers they used in the short term for their cloud mining left them with serious obligations.. I can't speak to specifics due to NDAs but let's just say they stopped being profitable some time ago even with cloud mining contracts..


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: graymatter on January 13, 2015, 06:28:29 PM
http://www.coindesk.com/cointerra-lawsuit-5-4-million-damages/

So at this point I am sure that there will be no TO considering the lawsuit.

dang it you beat me to it!  I was just about to post this!  lolz, where's aerobatic now? Hiding in a closet after realizing how TERRIBLE of an investment coin terra was....

http://www.coindesk.com/cointerra-lawsuit-5-4-million-damages/

LOLZ!

the misfortune of others is so funny, graymatter.  hilarious


my problem was the arrogance you showed when you showed to the situation unfolding.  I come from an engineering background and you dismissed me like some idiot and raved at how 'wonderful' Cointera was when multiple issues were staring you in the face.

Humility is something arrogant people find only after a massive slap to the face, its nice to see you found some. I still believe there are major technological hurdles with the 16nm process that none of these companies have truly addressed, as is the cost.  For now, I would advice staying away from all 16nm processed ASIC chips until we have some actual engineering data from them...  Perhaps small Dye 16nm may be able to handle the heat dissipation load with adequate cooling, but can and will it justify the costs of this process and reach efficiency promised?  Not for the first production runs would be a fair guess.

Quarter 4 this year we may see them, but not with the way the Bitcoin price is right now.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: graymatter on January 13, 2015, 06:40:10 PM
I found this:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rkevr/cointerra_is_in_default/

It's weird that they couldn't make money with cloud mining, but their timeline for the Aire was extremely optimistic.

A default does not comment on a company's profitability directly as its a hallmark of a company's liquidity. They could be making $10M a year but it would be meaningless if they can't pay their short term liabilities at the right time.

Great point, and I will say the primary hosting providers they used in the short term for their cloud mining left them with serious obligations.. I can't speak to specifics due to NDAs but let's just say they stopped being profitable some time ago even with cloud mining contracts..

Not to mention cointerra probably planned this.  They were probably unprofitable mining several months ago, lets do the quick math:

if you look at the lawsuit from the C7 filed against them, they were paying close to $101 per KW, assuming they were perfectly using 79.99% of each circuit @ 100% up-time.  Realistically, $105 per KW, completely ignoring the IT personnel you need to maintain the equipment, the actual costs break down as:

Cointerra = 2kw for 1.6tera
1 kw = .8tera hash
@ 1 mw, they were hashing at 800 tera for 105k per month (these numbers are based on the 1 MSA, they may have purchased additional services in the future, but scale wouldn't change)

with Bitcoin @ $300.00 dollars, and selling all coins about 132k net, and 30k dollars profit per month.  Instead of paying to innovate and work on realistic / competitive miners with a 20nm or 28nm process, they pocketed profits.

They decided, hey, lets mine for free until they shut us down, then file chapter 11 as its more cost effective to do it this way than paying our DC $200,000 dollars+ we owe them....


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: Marvell1 on January 13, 2015, 06:59:48 PM
I found this:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rkevr/cointerra_is_in_default/

It's weird that they couldn't make money with cloud mining, but their timeline for the Aire was extremely optimistic.

A default does not comment on a company's profitability directly as its a hallmark of a company's liquidity. They could be making $10M a year but it would be meaningless if they can't pay their short term liabilities at the right time.

Great point, and I will say the primary hosting providers they used in the short term for their cloud mining left them with serious obligations.. I can't speak to specifics due to NDAs but let's just say they stopped being profitable some time ago even with cloud mining contracts..

Not to mention cointerra probably planned this.  They were probably unprofitable mining several months ago, lets do the quick math:

if you look at the lawsuit from the C7 filed against them, they were paying close to $101 per KW, assuming they were perfectly using 79.99% of each circuit @ 100% up-time.  Realistically, $105 per KW, completely ignoring the IT personnel you need to maintain the equipment, the actual costs break down as:

Cointerra = 2kw for 1.6tera
1 kw = .8tera hash
@ 1 mw, they were hashing at 800 tera for 105k per month (these numbers are based on the 1 MSA, they may have purchased additional services in the future, but scale wouldn't change)

with Bitcoin @ $300.00 dollars, and selling all coins about 132k net, and 30k dollars profit per month.  Instead of paying to innovate and work on realistic / competitive miners with a 20nm or 28nm process, they pocketed profits.

They decided, hey, lets mine for free until they shut us down, then file chapter 11 as its more cost effective to do it this way than paying our DC $200,000 dollars+ we owe them....


Man what crooks, i guess thats the silver lining to these low BTC prices its putting alot the high end of ponzi/scammers/crookded manurfactuerers out of business

let hope bitmain and KNC are next up to bat


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on January 13, 2015, 07:17:37 PM

my problem was the arrogance you showed when you showed to the situation unfolding.  I come from an engineering background and you dismissed me like some idiot and raved at how 'wonderful' Cointera was when multiple issues were staring you in the face.

Humility is something arrogant people find only after a massive slap to the face, its nice to see you found some. I still believe there are major technological hurdles with the 16nm process that none of these companies have truly addressed, as is the cost.  For now, I would advice staying away from all 16nm processed ASIC chips until we have some actual engineering data from them...  Perhaps small Dye 16nm may be able to handle the heat dissipation load with adequate cooling, but can and will it justify the costs of this process and reach efficiency promised?  Not for the first production runs would be a fair guess.

Quarter 4 this year we may see them, but not with the way the Bitcoin price is right now.

its easy for you to throw stones.  i dont think ive been deliberately arrogant.  sure, ive had the odd argument.  but ive always tried to be balanced, and ive never hidden my bias when i had one.  im also one of the few people on this forum to use my real name, so i can stand behind anything ive said in a way that most wouldnt.  i also show my face at conferences  and repeat my views in panel sessions and take questions etc.  in short, im a very open person and havnt ever hidden my investment in cointerra.  ive also mined with bitfury, kncminer, asicminer, hashfast and cointerra gear.  when it comes to bitcoin, ive always been a miner first, and investor second.  but i switched off all my mining gear in october, when it became unprofitable for last year's hardware to mine.  so now im just an investor.   and the investments ive made so far are very hit and miss.  and mostly miss.  investing in bitcoin companies is extremely high risk!

anyway, i dont agree with your statements.  cointerra HAD finished their 16nm design and it was a good design.  they were way ahead of any other 16nm design at the time (because they had early access and no one else did).  the design was done and dusted in october but they tried to raise cash from investors to tape out at a time when bitcoin price was dropping and investors were skittish.  ct couldnt raise anywhere near enough for tapeout (they needed some $20m, which is seriously what it costs to tapeout 16nm, make first batch of production wafers, and build 1st batch of systems)  the market conditions werent conducive to raising cash for mining companies at that time (and may never be again), and im sure their prior reputation of under-delivery and unhappy customers didnt help one iota.

you claim to be an engineer yet your assumptions about 16nm and asics in general show that you have a superficial and incomplete grasp of asic technology.  the way you write also doesnt inspire confidence that you know anything about asics.  (Die is not spelled Dye, for instance)

however all that aside, the mining business sucks when the price of btc is low - and its super low today.  its pretty much unprofitable for anyone to mine at this time.  its a serious problem for bitcoin in general if miners have no business.  mining is necessary (up until the tech gets redesigned to use a different method of securing the network against fraud and double spends).  even the biggest miner on the network, cex.io (same company as ghash) has now stopped cloud mining.   at the price they can mine with their huge number of bitfury boxes, it has to be unprofitable for almost every gigahash at this point.

do the math, hosting in most places costs more than $100/KW/Month.  In the cheapest places (Washington, Iceland) its a little less, but most of the network isnt in Washington or Iceland today and there are high moving costs to ship it there (as well as high installation costs to deploy it

All the math here is back of the envelope and inaccurate, but, lets play with some numbers and highlight the issue.  Most miners on the (circa 300 PH) network today consume in the range of 0.6 and 1.2 Watts per GH/s (aka J/GH).   lets assume the average efficiency on the network today is 0.8 W/GH/s (its probably much worse as only the recently available hardware is better, but most thats out there is older hardware).  There are 24 hours a day, 30 days in a month, thus each TH of hashing power consumes 0.8 W/GH/s x 1000 watts x 24 (hours) x 30 (days) x $100/KW/Month = $576/TH/month to run.   And at the current network hash rate, each TH of mining power will generate less than 1 btc in a month which at today's value of BTC=$230, means that it costs you significantly more to mine that it generates in revenue.  You can BUY the btc for almost half the price that it costs you to mine it.   And i havnt even included the cost of buying the miner in that calculation, which adds insult to injury.  (as mentioned, all math is uber approx).   This is why no one is selling miners any longer and why there was a transition from people selling miners to people offering cloud mining services (its cheaper to deploy and easier to sell).. but even that, now, is unprofitable for all concerned.

almost no one, no matter where they are, can host cheaply enough to make bitcoin mining be profitable, at the present btc price (and electricity price).   Even with Icelandic hosting prices ($70/KW/Month) or bare bones washington state prices ($50-60) its still unprofitable to mine, today.   note, hosting cost is more than just electricity cost, as you need a building, some wiring, some cooling, some transformers, some minimal staff etc.  but even at raw electric cost, its probably unprofitable right now, too.




Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on January 13, 2015, 07:47:05 PM
I found this:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rkevr/cointerra_is_in_default/

It's weird that they couldn't make money with cloud mining, but their timeline for the Aire was extremely optimistic.

A default does not comment on a company's profitability directly as its a hallmark of a company's liquidity. They could be making $10M a year but it would be meaningless if they can't pay their short term liabilities at the right time.

Great point, and I will say the primary hosting providers they used in the short term for their cloud mining left them with serious obligations.. I can't speak to specifics due to NDAs but let's just say they stopped being profitable some time ago even with cloud mining contracts..

Not to mention cointerra probably planned this.  They were probably unprofitable mining several months ago, lets do the quick math:

if you look at the lawsuit from the C7 filed against them, they were paying close to $101 per KW, assuming they were perfectly using 79.99% of each circuit @ 100% up-time.  Realistically, $105 per KW, completely ignoring the IT personnel you need to maintain the equipment, the actual costs break down as:

Cointerra = 2kw for 1.6tera
1 kw = .8tera hash
@ 1 mw, they were hashing at 800 tera for 105k per month (these numbers are based on the 1 MSA, they may have purchased additional services in the future, but scale wouldn't change)

with Bitcoin @ $300.00 dollars, and selling all coins about 132k net, and 30k dollars profit per month.  Instead of paying to innovate and work on realistic / competitive miners with a 20nm or 28nm process, they pocketed profits.

They decided, hey, lets mine for free until they shut us down, then file chapter 11 as its more cost effective to do it this way than paying our DC $200,000 dollars+ we owe them....


you didnt include the cost of making the asics, of making the wafers, of building the systems, of shipping the systems, of employing the staff to do any of that.

once you add in all the costs, its an unprofitable exercise when btc = $230.   once upon a time, when cointerra started, btc was higher.. and im sure they sold most of their systems when btc was $1000.   the costs didnt change but the revenue did.  the main thing that screws up mining is that the cost of btc is now too low to justify mining.  it dropped a lot in the last few months, making any deal cointerra had completely unworkable and unprofitable.  their mistake was that their entire business plan was predicated on btc not going down to the levels it now has.   but unfortunately for all of us, every mining hardware company is in a similar position.  they all have the same economics.  the costs to make new silicon are the same for all of them, and the potential revenue is the same too.   kncminer and bitfury were lucky they raised some cash last year but with the price of btc where it is, the economics look unattractive to be mining, no matter who you are.




Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: RoadStress on January 13, 2015, 07:51:14 PM
That's damn expensive power for a cloud location.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on January 13, 2015, 07:53:48 PM
That's damn expensive power for a cloud location.

i said it was back of the envelope calculations.  please go ahead and improve the accuracy and show your own calculation.  perhaps we can crowdsource the accurate figures.  but the principle is the same and the numbers are broadly in line, don't you agree?

do you currently host for significantly less than $100/KW/Month?   I'm pretty sure when i got quotes from iceland and Washington, the prices were in the $70-80 for the lowest cost places, and most of america was in the $100-150 range (i myself was paying $150/KW/Month which is why i shut down my mining in october)


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: graymatter on January 13, 2015, 08:24:50 PM
That's damn expensive power for a cloud location.

i said it was back of the envelope calculations.  please go ahead and improve the accuracy and show your own calculation.  perhaps we can crowdsource the accurate figures.  but the principle is the same and the numbers are broadly in line, don't you agree?

do you currently host for significantly less than $100/KW/Month?   I'm pretty sure when i got quotes from iceland and Washington, the prices were in the $70-80 for the lowest cost places, and most of america was in the $100-150 range (i myself was paying $150/KW/Month which is why i shut down my mining in october)


We have a facility mining in the 50's, warehouse / cheap style, not even in Washington state, granted with build-out, its more like 65 for the first year, then drops to $50 per month once TI is paid (includes staffing), power, water, PUE etc. 

We also have pricing in the 60's in Iceland and Washington state, in full DC environments (for spoons), not warehouse style (for bitmain) and get discounted prices for bulk from manufacturers.  Will be able to turn a profit while other mining companies fail and drop out of the pictures.

Right now we're just dealing with large scale investors, but I've been working on getting them to release an actually profitable venture in terms of cloud mining to the masses by splitting the profit and mitigating some of the risk.  I mean we're fine either way, but would rather not see just a few major mining companies own the entire network.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: graymatter on January 13, 2015, 08:42:57 PM

my problem was the arrogance you showed when you showed to the situation unfolding.  I come from an engineering background and you dismissed me like some idiot and raved at how 'wonderful' Cointera was when multiple issues were staring you in the face.

Humility is something arrogant people find only after a massive slap to the face, its nice to see you found some. I still believe there are major technological hurdles with the 16nm process that none of these companies have truly addressed, as is the cost.  For now, I would advice staying away from all 16nm processed ASIC chips until we have some actual engineering data from them...  Perhaps small Dye 16nm may be able to handle the heat dissipation load with adequate cooling, but can and will it justify the costs of this process and reach efficiency promised?  Not for the first production runs would be a fair guess.

Quarter 4 this year we may see them, but not with the way the Bitcoin price is right now.

its easy for you to throw stones.  i dont think ive been deliberately arrogant.  sure, ive had the odd argument.  but ive always tried to be balanced, and ive never hidden my bias when i had one.  im also one of the few people on this forum to use my real name, so i can stand behind anything ive said in a way that most wouldnt.  i also show my face at conferences  and repeat my views in panel sessions and take questions etc.  in short, im a very open person and havnt ever hidden my investment in cointerra.  ive also mined with bitfury, kncminer, asicminer, hashfast and cointerra gear.  when it comes to bitcoin, ive always been a miner first, and investor second.  but i switched off all my mining gear in october, when it became unprofitable for last year's hardware to mine.  so now im just an investor.   and the investments ive made so far are very hit and miss.  and mostly miss.  investing in bitcoin companies is extremely high risk!

anyway, i dont agree with your statements.  cointerra HAD finished their 16nm design and it was a good design.  they were way ahead of any other 16nm design at the time (because they had early access and no one else did).  the design was done and dusted in october but they tried to raise cash from investors to tape out at a time when bitcoin price was dropping and investors were skittish.  ct couldnt raise anywhere near enough for tapeout (they needed some $20m, which is seriously what it costs to tapeout 16nm, make first batch of production wafers, and build 1st batch of systems)  the market conditions werent conducive to raising cash for mining companies at that time (and may never be again), and im sure their prior reputation of under-delivery and unhappy customers didnt help one iota.

you claim to be an engineer yet your assumptions about 16nm and asics in general show that you have a superficial and incomplete grasp of asic technology.  the way you write also doesnt inspire confidence that you know anything about asics.  (Die is not spelled Dye, for instance)

however all that aside, the mining business sucks when the price of btc is low - and its super low today.  its pretty much unprofitable for anyone to mine at this time.  its a serious problem for bitcoin in general if miners have no business.  mining is necessary (up until the tech gets redesigned to use a different method of securing the network against fraud and double spends).  even the biggest miner on the network, cex.io (same company as ghash) has now stopped cloud mining.   at the price they can mine with their huge number of bitfury boxes, it has to be unprofitable for almost every gigahash at this point.

do the math, hosting in most places costs more than $100/KW/Month.  In the cheapest places (Washington, Iceland) its a little less, but most of the network isnt in Washington or Iceland today and there are high moving costs to ship it there (as well as high installation costs to deploy it

All the math here is back of the envelope and inaccurate, but, lets play with some numbers and highlight the issue.  Most miners on the (circa 300 PH) network today consume in the range of 0.6 and 1.2 Watts per GH/s (aka J/GH).   lets assume the average efficiency on the network today is 0.8 W/GH/s (its probably much worse as only the recently available hardware is better, but most thats out there is older hardware).  There are 24 hours a day, 30 days in a month, thus each TH of hashing power consumes 0.8 W/GH/s x 1000 watts x 24 (hours) x 30 (days) x $100/KW/Month = $576/TH/month to run.   And at the current network hash rate, each TH of mining power will generate less than 1 btc in a month which at today's value of BTC=$230, means that it costs you significantly more to mine that it generates in revenue.  You can BUY the btc for almost half the price that it costs you to mine it.   And i havnt even included the cost of buying the miner in that calculation, which adds insult to injury.  (as mentioned, all math is uber approx).   This is why no one is selling miners any longer and why there was a transition from people selling miners to people offering cloud mining services (its cheaper to deploy and easier to sell).. but even that, now, is unprofitable for all concerned.

almost no one, no matter where they are, can host cheaply enough to make bitcoin mining be profitable, at the present btc price (and electricity price).   Even with Icelandic hosting prices ($70/KW/Month) or bare bones washington state prices ($50-60) its still unprofitable to mine, today.   note, hosting cost is more than just electricity cost, as you need a building, some wiring, some cooling, some transformers, some minimal staff etc.  but even at raw electric cost, its probably unprofitable right now, too.




Also in regards to the actually chip-set, my issue isn't the chip itself J/GH, its specifically with the cooling of that chip and the issues you have with maintain the efficiency as transistors get hot.  Lets put it this way, designing something in a computer model or simulation is much different than actual / practical numbers. This is one thing all engineers learn when they leave the classroom (good ones anyways).  How many products have we seen that 'look great on paper' but completely fail when it comes time to deploy?  Jumping to 16nm is very risky for any ASIC company, especially because other companies haven't paved the way much.

The dilemma you face is this, lets say you get 1,000 16nm chips, each chip can do 10gh, they are small chips, they will probably run super efficiently, stay cool, but how many does it take to make a complete competitive miner / operation?  As you increase the die size, you save some money, say 500 16nm chips at 18gh a piece.  Now you have more heat issues, your efficiency drops, but it costs less.  Same thing with larger runs and so on.  More circuits, less circuits, more complex boards, boards melting, these are not easily 'modeled' on a computer and often require samples.

To be honest, this is why chips haven't been dropping in size as quickly recently, the efficiency gains are getting less and less, and the cost benefits are questionable - even for the mighty Bitcoin ASIC's.

The list goes on and on for the complications you find with the smaller and smaller chip sets.  And at the end of the day, if the ROI of the equipment will take someone 1-2 years to return even @ lowest from the wall costs, whats the endgame??


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: RoadStress on January 13, 2015, 09:26:33 PM
That's damn expensive power for a cloud location.

i said it was back of the envelope calculations.  please go ahead and improve the accuracy and show your own calculation.  perhaps we can crowdsource the accurate figures.  but the principle is the same and the numbers are broadly in line, don't you agree?

do you currently host for significantly less than $100/KW/Month?   I'm pretty sure when i got quotes from iceland and Washington, the prices were in the $70-80 for the lowest cost places, and most of america was in the $100-150 range (i myself was paying $150/KW/Month which is why i shut down my mining in october)


I host under $100KW/month, but no by much, BUT I use a lot less power than a cloud mining operation so that's why I'm amazed that you got those rates.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on January 13, 2015, 09:33:03 PM
That's damn expensive power for a cloud location.

i said it was back of the envelope calculations.  please go ahead and improve the accuracy and show your own calculation.  perhaps we can crowdsource the accurate figures.  but the principle is the same and the numbers are broadly in line, don't you agree?

do you currently host for significantly less than $100/KW/Month?   I'm pretty sure when i got quotes from iceland and Washington, the prices were in the $70-80 for the lowest cost places, and most of america was in the $100-150 range (i myself was paying $150/KW/Month which is why i shut down my mining in october)


I host under $100KW/month, but no by much, BUT I use a lot less power than a cloud mining operation so that's why I'm amazed that you got those rates.

i don't have a cloud mining operation.  i was hosting several hundred TH of hashfast and cointerra gear when i was paying $150/KW/Month.  when i was using kncminer gear at their hosting facility i was paying much more.

the 'barebones' data centres ('shed' with power) in washington and iceland are a recently available phenomena... and weren't available to me last year.




Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: aerobatic on January 13, 2015, 09:52:05 PM

Also in regards to the actually chip-set, my issue isn't the chip itself J/GH, its specifically with the cooling of that chip and the issues you have with maintain the efficiency as transistors get hot.  Lets put it this way, designing something in a computer model or simulation is much different than actual / practical numbers. This is one thing all engineers learn when they leave the classroom (good ones anyways).  How many products have we seen that 'look great on paper' but completely fail when it comes time to deploy?  Jumping to 16nm is very risky for any ASIC company, especially because other companies haven't paved the way much.

The dilemma you face is this, lets say you get 1,000 16nm chips, each chip can do 10gh, they are small chips, they will probably run super efficiently, stay cool, but how many does it take to make a complete competitive miner / operation?  As you increase the die size, you save some money, say 500 16nm chips at 18gh a piece.  Now you have more heat issues, your efficiency drops, but it costs less.  Same thing with larger runs and so on.  More circuits, less circuits, more complex boards, boards melting, these are not easily 'modeled' on a computer and often require samples.

To be honest, this is why chips haven't been dropping in size as quickly recently, the efficiency gains are getting less and less, and the cost benefits are questionable - even for the mighty Bitcoin ASIC's.

The list goes on and on for the complications you find with the smaller and smaller chip sets.  And at the end of the day, if the ROI of the equipment will take someone 1-2 years to return even @ lowest from the wall costs, whats the endgame??

i think you've misunderstood something.   the size of the asic doesn't change its power consumption (watts per gigahash/s).  it doesn't change its efficiency.   The cooling of the system has to be designed to be appropriate for the heat output of the asic.

its the design of the hash engine, and process technology used that largely dictate the power consumption (and of course, the voltage its run at, which is clearly a design and process issue)

the hash engines are small and highly repeatable.  there are tens to hundreds of hash engines in most bitcoin mining asics.  perhaps even thousands in some.

the actual size of the asic - i.e., how many hash engines you put in the asic, makes almost no difference to the power consumption (on a w/gh/s basis).

so its up to the asic designer to put the right number of hash engines into the asic that they can efficiently cool the part.

however, the size of the asic does have an impact on system cost.  since the packaging and pcbs costs are directly related to how many parts (packages) you have, there is a cost advantage in going for larger packages that pack more hashing engines into bigger asics that consume less board space.  also, the on-chip circuitry is more efficient and less losses than the off-chip (on board) circuitry, so minimising the latter is desirable.

so in an ideal world, you would put as many hash engines as possible into a package to reduce the number of packages and keep system costs down.   however, as you rightly say, there is a cooling impact.   when you multiply the power consumption of each hash engine by the number of engines you have, you get your power per package.   there are different ways of cooling different amounts of power.

for tiny dies in small packages, like what bitfury and asicminer use, they have very few hash engines in each die... and they keep the power per package to around 2 watts, which is air-coolable without heatsinks, just the packages and board itself become the heatsink.  its cheap and easy to build.. however you need to have a huge number of asics and very large boards, and lots of boards, to produce the same hash power as a more densely packed asic that has more hash engines and runs hotter.  its also potentially more expensive, as the (asic) packaging cost becomes higher (so many packages for a given amount of hash power adds to the cost).  the design process for designing smaller asics is easier, but it doesn't cost much less, as the NRE is the same no matter how big the asic.  And the production is wafer based.  In theory you would have better yields with smaller dies, but in practice, bitcoin mining asics have very good yields as they have so much repetition on the die, that any individual defect doesn't make the asic useless (like it would with an Apple A7 asic)

thus the next step up is the spondoolies style, where they run the asic at probably around 50 watts, and use heatsinks to keep it cool.. but they have a lot more hash engines per package than asicminer/bitfury type design.

cointerra's 16nm design was similar this.   its a good balance of asic density versus power and cooling requirement.  the goal to bring the overall system cost down.

then you have the kncminer approach which is to pack a lot of engines onto one package and have a lot of cooling on each package.  probably 200+ watts per asic?  with huge pc-style cpu coolers.  luckily this method works because pc cpu coolers are plentiful and there's good ones out there that aren't expensive.

and lastly you have the cointerra and hashfast (late 2013) approach, which is to have an enormous number of hash engines on an asic, and run it very very hot (400 watts) and require exotic cooling technologies (liquid cooling) to extract the heat.  it was this approach which made cointerra's systems unreliable because they relied on a cooling tech that had a lot of moving parts (liquid, pumps, fans), and the cooling tech wasn't anywhere near as reliable as it was claimed to be.  and they had four of them in each system, which meant much higher than acceptable failure rate.  not of the asics, which was reasonable.. but for the cooling parts )CoolIT), which let them down badly.

anyway, sometimes you've got to try new techniques to find out that earlier techniques were better all along, and cointerra's 16nm system design didn't share any of the design elements of their previous one.  they learned a lot from their experience.  the 16nm system had well designed asics, well designed systems, and well designed cooling, and it was optimised to be low cost and high reliability.  unfortunately, they didn't raise enough cash to build any of them, even though the design was complete and ready to push the button into manufacture.


Title: Re: Cointerra AIRE Miner 16nm PreOrder
Post by: BitcoinPappi on January 27, 2015, 07:11:09 PM
The good thing is none of this matters any more since Cointerra filed for bankruptcy   http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-mining-firm-cointerra-files-chapter-7-bankruptcy/ (http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-mining-firm-cointerra-files-chapter-7-bankruptcy/)


The preorder was obviously an attempt to try to save themselves. Guess the community choose to spend their money else where . Hopefully all manufactures that have screwed and continue to screw over their customers have a similar fate [KNC]